Adaptive Weapon Proficiency in RPGs - Realistic?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ส.ค. 2018
- In many roleplaying systems you find the idea of applying a particular weapon skill to a different weapon at a penalty if need be. So I figured it might be interesting to discuss if and how that would work in real life.
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I love RPGs that lock items by level like:
"Ah this helmet is much better than mine"
*Shakes violently unable to put it on*
"THIS. IS. BEYOND. MY. POWER!"
If you put it on, its arcane powers will overwhelm and take over you. Duh, OP it's fantasy just imagine shit /s
So every high level helmet is Dr. Fate?
To be fair, I would say that there is a tiny tidbit of fact to it. Like, suppose you steal a full face helmet off of a dead knight during a battle. You put it on, and you realize that you've never trained with extremely restricted eye slits. And you can't find the visor release latch because it's on the outside of your head and you can't see it. Meanwhile, someone comes up to you outside of your (tiny) field of view and stabs you while you're fiddling with it.
This is reflected in my experience: the first time I tried to fight with night vision goggles (I was playing an 18-hour airsoft game and my friend loaned me a set), I was completely useless. I hadn't trained to look through optics through my nvgs, and I hadn't set up my IR laser in a place where I could easily activate it. In other words, I couldn't target anyone and I had to kinda spray uselessly in their direction. Another time, my friend borrowed a helmet with nvgs but it wasn't set up for his head. It ended up slipping off his head constantly throughout the 9-hour patrol, and he would have been better off without any of the kit.
In other words, having fancy equipment doesn't automatically make you good at fighting. Sometimes, it can make you even worse than you would have been without the equipment. Thus, it's not completely unreasonable that you'd want to wait until you have a bit of training before using it (which the game might reflect via level requirements).
Also, you wouldn't believe the number of times I've lit up a friendly because of lack of training with nvgs. It wouldn't surprise me if, the first five times I used nvgs, a quarter of the people I wasted were friendlies.
Also, heavier armour tends to cause more pressure points and restriction in movement. Wearing a combat helmet for several hours can be downright excruciating if it's not set up properly for your head, and if you haven't trained with it. And of course, the helmets I've worn were padded with modern foam and moisture wicking linings, etc. I don't want to think about how bad a medieval one could have been.
"Grab your Doritos and your Mountain Dew and get ready to nerd out."
*when i first heard that*
Oh my Skall, that's just stereotyping!
*upon realizing i have Doritos and Mountain Dew right on my desk*
Touche.
Polpot Lee
For a steriotipe to exist, it needs to be true 80% of the time.
Levi Visconti More like 20%. Just enough to be noticeable without actually being generally applicable.
Corwin Hyatt No, stereotypes are usually actually true. It is hard to conform to be defined by abstract qualities and behaviours others see in you, but when you accept that you are a tribal creature, and understand that most human behaviour comes from observing others, you will end up agreeing with the idea that stereotypes are very real and valid.
How fucking good is Mountain Dew though
Fat Mat I personally don't like it, but I do love some Dorito flavours.
This is something I like about Kingdom Come, it has separate skills for swords, axes and maces, but also a "warfare" skill which is meant to quantify your general battle experience, your footwork, your ability to read the opponent's movement and so on.
Oh man, now I want to see two experts in just a weapon duel but using eachother's weapon of choice.
It would be a pain as someone who tried applying kendo skills to a saber and it was a fucking pain
It would be a pain as someone who tried applying kendo skills to a saber and it was a fucking pain
I in turn have seen a historical catana fencer trying kendo for the first time. Catanas themselves dont have that much mass, but when they gave him a bokken he was happiest person ever, having a blade that litteraly weighs nothing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearless_(2006_film)
There's a scene were the katana user and the hero using a three-sectional staff trade weapons. The hero is able to adapt pretty quickly to the katana as he's used Dao's earlier. The samurai clonks himself in the head. Which having (tried to) used a three-sectional staff, is very realistic.
Quite funny.
Don't you just love it when you're 3 mins into the video and TH-cam gives you the notification now.
at least you got the notification
true
I prefer those times when I see a channel has a new video, I watch it, and then YT gives me the notification the next day
I think it's realistic, I tried to learn rapier fighting a while back, failed catastrophically, then latter I learned how to box, then I tried rapiers again and realized that I was a lot better because a lot of the footwork carried over as well as some of the strategies, knowledge of spacing and so on, not just that but it helped my knife fighting out a lot as well so my vote goes for it being 100% realistic
It just sounds like you got a shitty teacher who couldn't teach you footwork properly and the boxing coach was better at it teaching.
OH I had no teacher, there are none in the country as far as I know, I was mostly studying some manuals and trying to figure out the movements
Im a pretty good knife fighter, picked up a rapier one day messed with it, once i got used to the length and guard (took about 3-6 hours of practice) now im amazing with rapiers they used tp be my least favorite now i love em, only thing is im not used to the restrictive grip because i like switching up my stances and grip alot because i can do it fast and im an ambidextrous fighter so it became pretty useful over time and with rapiers you kinda cant, thats why sword bayonets are still my #1 favorite
Reminds me of something TH-camr Ramsey Dewey said. "Take the best boxer in the world, give them a knife, and now they are the best knife fighter in the world". He was complaining about how a lot of "knife fighting" classes don't teach you techniques that would work in a realistic scenario where someone's actively trying to resist/kill you. Instead, they teach you very fancy disarming techniques that require you to know exactly what your opponent's about to do, make centimeter-precise movements, and move five times as fast as your opponent in order to work (or maybe require your opponent to just stand there like an idiot and not resist you).
oddly enough if you've learned boxing you've actually learned a varient of sword fighting , western 5 style sword fighting is one of the roots of modern boxing , if you don't believe me , get into a typical western 5 en garde stance without a sword....close and turn your fists up like you've seen ye old 1920's boxers do... voila*
On the katana/longsword comparison, as someone who has worked with both I can say that a katana wielder would be significantly hampered using a longsword for 2 reasons: different guard, and different length. Katanas use a disc shaped tsuba vs a straight crossguard. The projecting quillons can actually get in the way of some katana techniques. Also, the general rule for a katana is that the blade should not touch the ground when gripped at the tsuba. The average longsword is at least 6-8 inches longer. That additional length can be a mixed blessing, affording added reach, but also decreasing maneuverability, relatively speaking.
Surprisingly, I've found katana and messer to be more compatible. The nail on the messer guard provides protection on 3 sides, more equivalent to the katana's disc guard, and the blade length is typically closer.
Luke Diehl Also, you cannot comfortably put your thumb on a blade on a katana. Also the differences in balance would not be ideal, but I don’t think it would be too bad.
Nicolas Hanslik no but u do stand a chance i have used both as well and he does rise good points but there is middle ground but the problem with that your still damn limited by good bit....but it not like the parry dagger and belt knife deal lol
@@NH-xg1cp there are katanas with no guards btw, so you can easily place your finger at the blade
@@Stre79 true yeah but when using typical examples
Like what katana techniques? I don't know any katana techniques that could possibly be disrupted by crossguards
Jackie chan translates his weapon proficiencies to other weapons all the time. Like ladders...and revolving doors...and chairs...and steering wheels
i always see that you can always go down in complexity easier.
for examply you hand a mace to a guy who is proficient with an axe, he'll know precisely what to do with it, doesn't work quite that well if you go the other way.
similarily, anyone who is proficient with any melee weapon is going to have an advantage over someone who has no training, simply because of all the things that have nothing to do with the weapon, such as the abillity to guage distances.
A mace is the easiest weapon to use, if you ask me.
Hold the light end, make the heavy end hit the opponent very fast, and congratulations, you can fight with a mace.
not that easy...remember its rare to get in a quick 1 hit finish in martial arts so u need to learn recovery with the mace and quick follow-ups
No one's gonna take you seriously bro, because I was waiting for you to say "I used to be a adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee"
I always loved the mace as a weapon simply because... there's really no wrong way to hit a guy with a mace , sure there're more effective and efficient ways, but no "wrong" way
Stabbing someone with a mace can be argued as the "wrong way"
Watching the falchion versus Talwar makes me feel instead of splitting weapons into weapon classes it would be more sensible to split them into combat styles, for example, drawing, hewing, thrusting, binding, one handed (Balanced), One handed (Top heavy), Two handed (Hilted) Two handed (Hafted) and so forth, with some weapons having better scaling in certain attributes than others if they have any at all.
That's actually genius
Man. I don't know if there's anything nerdier than breaking out a damn GURPs book and I'm so here for it
As Lindeybeige put it: a person with a lot of experience fighting with swords would tend to have a lot of experience with "fighting" period. Thus, they wouldn't be completely screwed using a different weapon.
I got the notification and honest to God thought he was talking about the RPG-7 and the first thing that went through my head was "Soviet heavy weaponry is a bit out of character for Skall"
More super geeky topics like this please! That was awesome.
Interestingly. More modern RPGs are foregoing single weapon proficiencies and instead have skills like "light weapons". I guess they are dumping realism for sake of simplicity. Who knew the old school RPGs had it right all along:)
Also nice to know you are a GURPs fan. Yes skill lists in the hundreds is also my thing haha.
L5R keeps it simple enough with categories that classify different styles of fighting that don't help at all for different weapons (unarmed combat, chain weapons, swords, knives, spears, polearms, staves), with a specialization that you can get for one specific weapon. Fighting duels is a whole different skill because it's quite different compared to regular combat, and some exotic weapons (like war fans) have their own category because they are so different. Also swords don't include stuff that is too different from a katana in the fighting style, European fighting swords are considered exotic weapons.
In Ad&d, aka 2nd edition, there was a Weapon Proficency Sistem, where points were allocated to a single weapon, not just a group
Request: You often see depictions of kids or terrible soldiers wearing pots and pans and colanders and using kitchen utensils to fight. Can you analyse these things and see how effective they actually would or wouldnt be?
Don Quixote fighted with a barber's basin as an helm. I don't think it has ever worked for him.
Well, an iron pot would be uncomfortable and have no padding to soften blows, so concussions would be really easy to get. They'd also be a loft softer, and possibly thinner, than a properly made steel helm, while also lacking all the benefits of a curved shape to deflect blows. A fairly square strike with an axe or hefty sword might even be able to cleave through a pot like that, under idea circumstances. Ideal for the attacker, that is
Heard the word "games", and then the music and the game weapon sounds, and my half asleep self for a moment felt like I was actually about to play an online medieval themed game XD
lifeisfeudal.com/
The one thing I like in D&D 5e, any class can use any weapon. I actually had a human sorcerer use a shortsword instead of a dagger. Reason is, my guy was of the Noble background, and most Nobles aren't going to use a knife in a fight - they use swords! Granted, I lost the proficiency bonus, but since shortswords have the Flexible trait I could still use my dexterity modifier for my attacks. Of course, as a magic user, with like 23 hit points (+8 temporary hp, due to my Inspiring Leader feat) and a 15 AC (My guy was of the dragon bloodline subclass) I was rarely in the front anyways, so I barely used it for combat, and it was more for flavor, but it's still something.
In fact, there's a story somewhere about a magic user, who didn't have any mundane weapons, who upset some tough guards, only to discover real quick that they were out of magic, and tried to run away, only for them, and their party, to get trapped in the room. The party decided to fight the guards, but the magic user kept running in circles, not trying to attack (why they didn't use cantrips, I don't know). Some members of the party were like "Take my back-up weapon so that you can fight!" but he was like "No thanks! Can't hit with those!" to which others were like "Be better than nothing!" I think they got rid of him for his exceptional foolishness.
"knifes are not swords technically" "i love my kriegsMESSER" :>
One thing to remember is that proficiency with certain weapons can aid with others in abstract ways.
Even if you're a rapier master and have to use a katana, while youre not versed in properly executing the slashing strikes required to make a katana a great weapon, you do have hand-eye coordination and exceptional footwork. No matter what sword you're using, having an understanding of spacing and footwork is a broad skill that applies to nearly all swords, even if its in different ways. Much like a sai user might not understand how to use a large, single edge'd hunting dagger well, they still have the skills and understanding required to get into striking range, as well as the coordination for landing blows.
So while its definitely true training in one particular weapon doesnt mean another will be very effective, it does mean you will have a lot of the required mechanics to adapt. Infinitely more so than a person with absolutely no training in that weapon at all.
I wonder how far this logic goes. Like, suppose you take the 2018 HEMA rapier champion who's never picked up a katana or any sort of dedicated-cutting weapons before (kinda unrealistic, I know), but has trained on the rapier for thousands of hours. And you put them up in a katana-only duel against an intermediate kenjutsu practitioner who's spent a few dozen hours on their specific weapon. I wonder who has the advantage?
I would say the rapier user, simply because in a real fight scenario, experience is one of the larger deciding factors in a fight, the other being luck.
look at it this way, who would win? a guy with a knife, and a decent amount of training in it, or a championship level medium weight boxer?
i would personally say the boxer, because if you can control spacing, you can control your enemies effective options for engagement, if you limit the avenues of attack, it becomes easier to predict them, and maneuver them into a position advantageous to yourself.
I feel like, in such a high-stakes scenario as a unarmed-boxer-vs-knife-wielder fight, I don't know if I would bet on the champion boxer. Every punch the boxer lands might cause a nasty bruise, but every strike the knife wielder lands might cause death. You know what I mean? It's like trying to play chess against a champion, but with the extra rule that the champion will lose if you manage to take a single piece.
You vastly underestimate the power of a fist. A single punch from an expert boxer could definitely knock you unconscious, and only a few could kill you.
You're right, I don't know much about boxing. I still feel like, in the few fights I've seen on TV, the fighters tend to land at least a few dozen hits on each other before one goes down, no?
I feel like the knife fighter still has a significant chance of landing a single hit on the boxer. And if the hit is somewhere important, like between a pair of ribs or in an artery, the boxer would die shortly after "winning" the fight unless he gets immediate medical attention.
Yeah, that Indian blade would be quite difficult to use for a practitioner of more traditional swords -- you're deprived of some of your best moves, namely unscrewing the pommel and ending thine opponent rightly.
OBJECTION!!!
Overruled. Prosecution, please continue.
I thought Pommel Throwing was for Defense?
Miguel de Lima I think it's for use on horse in high speed, so not letting your sword slipped out much concern
It’s been 4 FUCKING YEARS!! STOP WITH THE POMMELS!!!
Imagine how someone used to rapiers would feel if they had to use somethink like a sweihander. Or vice versa really. That could be a cool dueling video. Two specialists swap weapons.
So here is my understanding of the characteristics of weapons that determine their similarity.
- Length
- weight
- Intended motion (curved edge slash, straight edge hew, or stabbing, in that order)
- available motions (for instance, a sai lacks edges entirely, making it a stabbing only weapon)
- 1 or 2 handed
- Existence of hand protection
- Number of edges (1, 2, or 0, in that order)
If you account for all of those, then congratulations, your rpg is probably unplayably dense, but you have achieved realism.
Only nitpick I have, the sai isn't for stabbing. It's more of a baton.
Great video. I love your serious treatment of the technical aspects combined with the overall lighthearted tone and acknowledgment that it's a nerdy subject.
I know this video is old, but it is really awesome! I really want to get into tabletop roleplaying!
Now I've been always a videogame player, and some RPGs I can remember that impemented something similar to this have been:
Final Fantasy II = You level up your skills rather than your character, which was pretty cool and IMO felt more realistic than the standard leveling system... I mean just kill a million wolves and then you'll be able to kill a cosmic horror... doesn't make sense, but with enough skill, even luck, basically anyone can defeat a stronger more trained warrior.
World of Warcraft (vanilla to WOTLK) = Your class had access to specific type of weapons, you could even learn to wield a different kind of version not standard for your class but you could go to the weapon master to learn how to use it and then you had to skill up your weapon skills, under-leveled weapon meant you would miss a lot and hit weaker, which helped a lot in immersion
Final Fantasy XI (yeah another MMORPG) = Kinda similar to WoW but in this case you could basically use weapons suited for your class, and had to skill up otherwise you would miss a lot and hit weak, also your class had weapon rankings that determined which was the max skill level you could level your weapon to (for example a Dark Knight could skill up Scythe to max level, followed by 2 handed sword, but if you wanted to use a single handed sword your max skill level was really underwhelming)
basically we need a "Footwork" skill more than anything loool
I loved Steve Jackson's "GURPS". This is a good discussion. Thank you :)
The D&D movie, Honor Among Thieves, has a scene worth noting for this sort of thing. The group is in a Gladiatorial Maze. No one has a weapon, and thus the group knows that they need to find some. Also, the Sorcerer and Druid have Magic Nullifiers attached to them, so no spells or transformations.
Druid (a Tiefling, mind you) finds a sword in a chest - looks to be an arming sword sort (either a shortsword or a longsword, which druids aren't proficient with, unless they are an elf, have the Weapon Master Feat that has it included, or they multi-classed into/out of a class that has proficiency with them - using D&D 5e rules that is). Barbarian also checks out a chest - It's a Mimic! Druid uses their sword to chop off the creature's tongue to rescue the Barbarian.
So, regardless of if you like the movie or not, it does include how in a pinch, even a spellcaster will grab a sword.
With using a different weapon skill is my favorite TH-cam video
Sais have two modes, depending on how you want to use them. At 4:25, that is using them in a more defensive manner. The other mode is using them more like a parrying dagger and for added reach. I've had some time using them and while they are easy to learn, a person does need some training with them to be effective.
The sai is quite literally an eastern parrying dagger with slightly more offensive power, so this isnt too surprising. its designed to catch a weapon, disarm it, and then punch through most basic forms of armor.
That bit at the end with the *stylish jacket* was actually pretty funny and original
GURPS is exactly what made me wonder about this particular subject. Good work.
Love those roleplaying related topics, very informative!
Since you have the GURPS book, check out the familiarity rule at the start of the skills section. It makes different weapons using the same skill take some time to get used to, and characters with more points invested in the skill start off with more familiar weapons, as well as a random chance for a new weapon to be similar enough to adapt to easily.
Glad to have you validate my system. It's already designed to follow what you've been saying. Thanks.
Seeing GURPS get love really makes me happy. D&d is great and all but the gospel of GURPS deserves a lot more attention.
I like going with a weapon triangle, you have in the three corners chopping, cutting and thrusting with the most specific weapons at each edge and the most balanced weapon going in the middle, how you apply the penalty is that it becomes heavier and heavier the farther you move away from the point in which your weapon proficiency lies with an additional penalty if the grip changes (handshake one-hand, hammer one-hand, two-hand, one-and-half does not cause a penalty to the weapon proficiency but to the weapon itself, with slightly less power in hits and parries if you use it as a two-hand and slightly less dexterity as a one-hand no matter what your grip specialization is)
There was a moment of this in the movie Fearless (I think) where, in a duel between a katana and a 3-section staff, the two weapons got swapped out and the users had to improvise for a couple exchanges. Having used other sword types throughout the movie, the main character did well enough with the katana he ended up with, while the other guy just resorted to using the 3-section staff folded up as a blunt weapon. As soon as he tried to do anything else with it unfolded, he clanged himself in the head with it. Really highlighted the "it depends" nature of the thing.
"grab your Doritos and Mountain Dew" -- well I don't have those but I did grab for the Jack Daniels and Nilla wafers...
Cool video :) , Also ooh I am a fan of your coat at the end of the video.
The way to look at it.Straight swords focus on chopping swings, curved sword focus on drawn swings.
You would chop and have the edge of a straight sword impact a target, but the curved swords focuses more on swinging in a linear curve and the target is in the way.
Both has similar motion but one of them targets a point to attack directly, the other chooses a angle or a line to slice from.
I find the concept of the 'false friend" phenomenon interesting. It would imply that habits in one style would be more detrimental when inappropriately applied to another style than attempting the other style completely untrained.
A GURPS bearer!
Once upon a time there was a system named "7th Sea" where fencing styles was a bit more relevant. This system clearly differentiated swords, for instance, by its balance: longswords, great swords, fencing swords, saber-like blades (with the fulcrum point near to the tip), etc.
And there was different fencing styles as well. Some inspired on real world renaissance, others in movies and so on.
that advertising at the end was awsome
Dude I love that clip at the end. Sick jacket right there
You said there is a difference between bo and quarterstaff. Since these are quite the same weapons could you elaborate about the difference in fighting techniques?
bo staff is a bit longer, and i believe heavier
I think it's actually the other way around, in fact it's not uncommon for a bo staff to have a slight bit of flex to it. The main difference in use is in the grip though - a quarterstaff is held near the end, while a bo staff is more often held towards the middle (though there are strikes that use the full length of the staff)
A Bo is a long, fast, light and flexible weapon to poke and cause pain not serious damage.
A quarterstaff is a heavy, short, slow and hard rod to hit and break bones.
Ok, let's clarify:
- Quarterstaff is 1.8m or more and typical bo is about size of the wielder. So quarterstaff is either as long as a bo, for example when used as a walking stick, or longer when used specifically as a pole-weapon.
- Both, 1.8m long, will have diameter about 3cm and will be made of a hardwood. Hardwood has similar weight, no matter if it's ash, oak or hickory. Tournament bo, which can weight less than 1kg should not be even considered as a weapon, it's light to look nice and flashy in kata competitions.
These are the same, very simple weapons. There is really no point in looking for differences here ;)
Cool, really informative video. Also, that jacket is bad ass. =D
"I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it." Mathew Quigley
I love that you have a GURPS book on hand, it's my first choice system to use.
Nicely said... I like your adaptation on gurps :) and advice for any rapier and dagger fencers - take some boxing lessons, it can really help you with hand technique
Excellent video, as always. I do especially enjoy this type of video, being an avid gamer by entire life.
Also, where might one acquire that coat?
Stick them with the pointy end
love the ending ad.
I don't know why, but at this particular moment, I'm loving falchions, they were never my favorite before but I'm really enjoying them now.
The last bit about a saber master being thrown off because he has to use a different sword reminded me of the Jackie Chan cartoon. Jackie and his allies get taken into a tournament with specific rules and uniforms to wear. The uniforms and specific rule changes were an attempt to prove who was better in an even fight as the whole thing was set up by the villain, but the heroes lost from slight disadvantages such as not being used to a looser uniform causing them to slip up in the tournament but put them at an extreme advantage in the actual fights
I would like to add though that the pointwork you need with a rapier can be very useful in longsword fencing, especially when you consider that a lot of longsword fencers don't thrust that much, meaning that it can have some surprise factor. And you can perform a lunge similar to a rapier lunge with a longsword(not the most common thing, but can be done)and that is also quite effective, at least in my experience. And the cutting done with longswords can also help when performing cuts with rapiers. Of course it doesn't translate perfectly, but it does overlap very well and definitely enough to improve your effectiveness with both.
D&D is actually worse than most systems, in this regard. (I play D&D, so I would know.) In D&D, they lump various vastly different weapon types together. For example, a glaive (the polearm, not the shuriken thing) and a greatsword both fall under martial melee (and in D&D, if you have martial weapon proficiency, you can use them ALL), yet you have no penalty to either one being used.
To be fair, the D&D weapon proficiency represents training with all the weapons in that category. Ofc, that makes no sense, particularly with Barbarians.
Yeah, but another example of that is glaive vs longsword. You wouldn't expect someone to know how to use a polearm if they are trained in the use of a longsword primarily.
Weapon proficiency represents basic proficiency. You know the basics of the weapon and its techniques. You can use it with a basic level of competency. Weapon specialization and weapon focus feats represent further training with a particular type of weapon. YMMV on whether the assumptions about skill levels involved here make sense.
Part of the mythos of the Fighter class is "trained in all simple and martial weapons". They are experts in combat. Barbarians having that makes less sense...
Exactly what I was going to say. These proficiencies are so wide open and vague because they're supposed to represent a very basic training with all kinds of arms. Which I find pretty believeable, for a lowly foot soldier to know just the basics of swords, polearms and shields. Showing mastery with a very specific type of weapon is a whole other thing.
@3:29 That is one correct way to hold a sai.
4:45 - not a baa-a-a-d sheepsfoot blade you've got there.
I've seen games where you use a scimitar to perform thrusting attacks, so yes, if you do that sort of things you could adapt to any weapon
Great video.
That ad at the end was pretty clever.
Congrats on 1 million
I did want to mention on the topic of the bo staff, the key advantage is that you change the grip, so you actually do hold the bo like a quarterstaff in the majority of cases. You especially see this in Taijutsu. The center grip is good for tight, twirling and spinning maneuvers, but you lose the bo's range, which would lease you at a serious disadvantage against katana. Keep in mind the bo is largely regarded as a good counter to the katana. Anyway, point is you could actually use the naginata with the same style of training as the bo; you just need remember you've got a blade on one end, not the other.
Anyone else watching the back wall while he's swinging the shamshir around, seeing if the tip is going to connect?
Every time I watch one of your videos, I wanna make a new D&D character based on the topic.
Btw, thank you for this video. Gives me more to analyze about the role playing game I am making.
Let's look at melee weapons for a moment. There are essentially three criteria we need to examine to determine how we approach their use.
1. How do you hold it? One-handed, two-handed, closely gripped, wider grip?
2. How do you cause damage with it? Pointed, sharpened edge, flat impact?
3. How long is it? Less than a palm, a couple of feet, six yards?
In at least two categories, many weapons will overlap in their basic design. For example, a historical Greek xyphos and a typical machete are both relatively short blades with compact grips achieving a fair balance in the hand yet with enough weight in the blade itself to be used with deft and with heft as the need arises. It would follow then that somebody proficient with xyphos fighting would be able to use a machete in a similar manner. Though the machete lacks the same potential for thrusts as the xyphos, both are very well designed for quick slashes against a target.
Now, let's take somebody skilled with a xyphos and give them a typical long handled wood axe. They would not be nearly so proficient as they would find it quite difficult (initially) to adjust to the heftiness of the axe, where the weight is concentrated towards the tip and the design essentially requires you to swing it wide with both hands to achieve a very powerful strike onto the target. The advantage of such a tool over a more balanced weapon like the xyphos or machete is that you have far greater momentum thanks to the higher weight and longer reach. Though this requires more effort to lever on the user's part, this translates into a hugely increased kinetic impact. With a long handled wood axe, you can reasonably punch through fairly tough armour with a good swing. After all, a wood axe is designed to be used with your entire bodily leverage behind. Biomechanically, it takes full advantage of your entire bodily strength. You cannot really achieve the same with a short one-handed weapon.
So in the case of D&D 5E where a greataxe is basically a very large wood axe, it doesn't make sense that somebody trained to use a xyphos would immediately be able to take up a greataxe and say "aha! now I can cleave you asunder with the same level of precision that I have developed over years of intense practice with a short one-handed sword.
Now, if the xyphos user then took up a typical English long sword, he would be able to adapt to it far more quickly as it is still quite similar in function to his usual xyphos. It would require him familiarizing himself with its characterists over a few practice sessions, but an English longsword would be far more intuitive and better able to take advantage of his existing skills and muscular strength than were he to pick up a farmer's long handle wood axe.
Still, one can expect all trained in a world like D&D to have at least some exposure to weapons of all categories, if only to familiarize themselves with how they work, regardless of whether they centre their training around such weapons.
it may sound weird, but I like the idea of intelligence reducing penalties. for example, you may not have practiced with a rapier, but you have seem the techniques and studied them, so you will know what you are supposed to try. or in the case of a very exotic weapon you never seem before, you may look at its design and figure out how it was designed to be used.
Somehow hadn't seen this until now. You get a like for the old school GURPS book in hand, sir.
I'm remembering that scene from 13th Warrior where Ibn/Eben, who is trained in fighting with shamshir-like weapons, must use a European spatha-type sword and isn't very good with it. Props to whoever did the fight choreography for that movie for the realism of that moment.
I always liked the default system from GURPS for that reason.
"So yeah, your sword broke. There's a baseball bat nearby. You can use it... but not quite as well." (Defaulting Clubs from Broadsword @ -3 )
Or: "OK, MMA fight-night. You're in the ring, but your opponent is a Judo guy. As a Boxer, you don't really grapple. You're gonna struggle to fight him like that." (Defaulting Judo from Boxing @ -3 for purposes of escaping grapples, resisting throws, etc.)
Can't speak for melee weapons, but for firearms, well, sometimes one does have to work on things a bit. For instance, your typical shotgun for hunting is a bit longer than one made for the military, let alone one made for home defense. Then there's ammo capacity - a hunting shotgun might have up to 5 rounds, but a riot shotgun can hold up to ten, due to the fact that the ammo tube is as long as the barrel itself on a riot shotgun, but is much shorter in a hunting shotgun (to be in compliance to laws of hunting migratory birds like ducks and geese). Then there's the different grips.
Granted, a police officer or soldier trained with a tactical shotgun might be able to use a civilian shotgun in a life or death situation, especially if they've used one before, and likewise a regular civilian could use a tactical shotgun for hunting if they had to, but both have their different capabilities.
@My Brand True, that does work, if you know it's loaded, and the safety is off, but sometimes the sight's a little off, or you're not used to the recoil (okay, heat of the moment and adrenaline might help there...) and then there's the age old "how do I load this gun I'm not used to?"
I don't drink Mountain Dew or eat doritos. What should I get instead? Salted pork?
Big Brother Cashews and mead.
KaiserAfini
Of course. I have salted and honey glazed cashews already and some mead on the rack, so why didn't I think of it before?
Witnessed this firsthand when a friend of mine who's familiar with the messer tried using a sidesword. Even though the actual motions are very similar, just the different way of gripping the sword made it nearly unusable for him.
And on the other end I, being most familiar with the rapier, tried picking up a sidesword, and even though I had a hard time executing the "proper" moves for a sidesword, I was still able to fight somewhat decently well simply by treating it like a shorter and wider rapier because the basic shape and the way of gripping the sword were similar enough.
I read the title as "With Using Weapon a Different Skill"
I enjoy videos in which you use books, movies, TV shows, and games to explain historical combat. I have no experience in weapons based martial arts, so fiction is the only frame of reference that I have. Also, thumbs up for GURPS.
Ninjitsu is designed to be rather unilateral across weapons and unarmed combat. You move in very similar ways (with some differences) no matter the weapon or lack thereof.
One of the things I really like about ninjutsu. The more I train one thing, the more I train most all things.
I actually, Unknowingly, made a very realistic system for crafting weapons in a prototype gaming system which has been thrown into the trash as of now. It had different classifications of Melee Weapons (Slashing, Hewing, Thrusting, and Throwing) . You are proficient in the certian classification and they each do different damage based on the technique you use. I'll provide an example (Is not very good) One of my players had a fairly traditional European arming sword. This sword was considered a slashing weapon and had 2d6+1d4 slashing and thrusting damage, and 2d4+1d4 hewing damage. So you could use it to hew but it had a -4 maximum damage, I don't entirely remember how this system worked but I feel if I had refined it more it could have been fairly interesting.
Some Eastern fighting styles are what are called "secret sword" fighting styles. I've trained in one, they teach you to use weapons in terms of navigating your way around the weapon's weight. Once you get an intuition for the weapon's weight and center of gravity, you can use it with the style. It might not be the same as the standard styles that use that weapon, it will be the secret sword's style of using any of it's other weapons, but it still manages to use them pretty well by just powering it with the footwork and moving around the center of balance in the correct way.
@My Brand Yeah, you are really not speaking from a position of experience here. Not gonna debate someone who's already made up their mind and content to speak authoritatively about something they know nothing about though, you're gonna have to start over if you want to have a productive discussion out of this and get me to justify my style.
I think of it like this.
A riflemen who's trained entirely with a standard service rifle, say an M4. If he picked up someone's bolt action, he wouldn't just put it down and shrug. Squeeze trigger, bang, get your reset and sit on the wall.
He's certainly not just going to make shots from a killometer away like he's a trained sniper, but if he can snug a stock into his shoulder and get a cheek weld, he can still get the job down albeit with a lower fire rate and some awkwardness on cycling the bolt or reloading.
However if someone who is trained entirely in automatic pistols (standard array of 1911, glock, sig, basically not revolvers), picks up a rifle, they'll be pretty out of their zone. They could wing it, but it'd be almost the same as anyone else trying to fire the rifle. All he'd really know is that the trigger makes it go off and that he needs good posture and stance, but his profficency has to do with a system where both hands are clasped on one grip, with tight tension pushed outward and together, not pulling something into himself.
A long swordsmen could pick up a katana and just kind of shrug, it's still a sharp piece of metal that he can swing at people that will cut on draw or push, and it doubles as something to block other sharp pieces of metal. Yeh he'd be awkward with a different length and radically different weight or guard but he can still put on a much better showing than an untrained person.
I took a few fencing classes away back. My friends one day decided to get foam swords to duel with, and I had a hard time slashing but I could parry and reposte. Sure I could hit my friends (who had no experience wielding a sword at all), but when another friend who had taken longsword training came by all I could do is parry half the time. I got him twice, on the first bout because he didn't know I fenced and once more when I got lucky.
I have an idea for a scene in a steampunk-ish story. A soldier (who is pretty proficient in sabre fencing) ends up in a small sword duel.
More RPG-related-stuff please! ^^
There are techniques with the sai where it is held like a parrying dagger. I guess those can also be done with a parrying dagger to some extend. But the grip that you show, which is most commonly used will not work with a parrying dagger. The idea of this grip is to use the tsuka for punching techniques, the yoku for grapple like techniques (it is not comfortable to have those poking in your flesh) and the monouchi is a form of protection for you arm.
For sais you switch between the shown grip and a more conventional grip, so some techniques are transferable. Also, the shown grip allows you to "pommel-punch".
Now think of a medieval knight who finds a klingon Bakhleth... I guess "cannot compute" would be pretty approbiate in that situation ;)
Personal experience of spinning a short staff with weighted ends then trying out nunchuck. The static aspect as apposed to the rigidness throws ya for a loop but a lot of the techniques carried over enough so that I could seriously spin nunchuck in a manner that I was confident moving around and not hitting myself. With that said every object does have techniques strictly related to that object. Depending on the state of mind it could work in a pinch, and your skill level is watered down but just depends how proficient your opponent is In that weapon
Maybe weapons should have weight distribution classifications, like "top weighted, center weighted, and back weighted" with an "exotic" weight class that'd only be compatible with the specific weapon type it belongs to, that way someone could realistically translate shortsword combat into a small mace without getting penalized, and a dagger user could translate into unarmed. It'd make the most sense because hand placement shifts mostly based on weight, not nessisarily how heavy something is but where you're controlling it from.
Have a look at the last duel in Rob Roy for a pretty good example of how a rapier doesn't work like most other swords.
Really interesting, thanks! :) What do you think about RPG systems with a singular "fighting" skill that has specialisations for different weapontypes?
In the current 5th edition of DnD, if I'm not mistaken, your character can use any weapon, but is unable to use his or her dexterity bonus or strength bonus with the weapon if proficiency is lacking. Some weapons have size requirements as well as strength requirements to even wield properly in the first place.
This one situation where i think Skyrim's approach to RPG skills is one of the best in gaming. It breaks weapons into broad categories, and then uses Perks to refine specific techniques. While your basic poise, muscle training and footwork may carry over, your finer techniques won't, so Sword-specific perks have no bearing on using an Axe. While poorly refined, the system allows you to go as specific as you want, right down to particular techniques across the same weapon.
Parrying dagger vs Sai... You could use a Sai as a parrying dagger; forward grip, they're basically the same thing. It wouldn't translate the other way; the big hilt on the dagger prevents half the grips and techniques used with a Sai.
It is a correct grip for the sai. But there are also grips that are more dagger like.
Holy fuck skall has a physical gurps rulebook. His nerd cred has officially skyrocketed.
The Parrying dagger grip you used is the same as one of many used on sai. So I would say they are VERY close as I have used both weapons I can tell you they have much in common. A sai can however be used like a club, and the Main-gauche can be used to cut. The sai is not an edged weapon.
Great vid. I use Chinese Dao and Jian techniques combined, so I have to use the katana or sabre. Really love both these weapons although I find it far easier to thrust with the katana somehow.
I feel like having _any_ kind of combat training makes you better at fighting, regardless of the weapon you're using (or not using, if unarmed). The best way to represent this might be with a generic Combat Training ability, maybe split into Unarmed, Side Arms, Polearms, etc. You have to obtain this generic Combat Training ability before you can start getting skills in specific weapons, but simply having it gives you a bonus to all combat, weapon skills just enhance that bonus for specific types of weapons.
I tried a sabre for the first time and missed a lot of cuts because it was a diff length and the point you hit with was at a diff distance. I imagine for many people there is an "adjustment period" where they figure out how to apply the skills they have -- if any -- to a diff weapon, even a diff type of similar weapon, like a different kind of sword.
Whoa. What is that black machete - survival blade hybrid? It looks awesome!
Excellent points, overall. Generally, this is one reason I firmly believe PnP RPGs have an advantage over CRPGs in the form of the rules being pliable to the particulars and circumstances of a campaign.