While every review is likely going to be from someone that knows the original, I thought it would be fun/entertaining/interesting/informative to give the perspective from someone alien to the series,, for whom it just didn't resonate. Hope you enjoy the discussion.
As someone who was looking forward to this game as a remake of an old classic (like doom) I was expecting a lot of it, which in hindsight was probably a mistake. The combat doesn't feel impactful and that's in part because of the enemies and in part because of the weapons, and the environments seem noisy because of the textures but flat when it comes to navigation making the layout more confusing because of it. Though to me the simplicity of the puzzles coupled with that barebones 3d shooting minigame is probably the worst offender. How can the devs not come up with more engaging puzzles after so many years have gone by since the original? How did so little insight get put to work on that 3d shooting minigame for them to consider that ready for sale? I hope the people that enjoyed the classic can enjoy the new one, I really do, but I can't help but feel they missed the mark in many key features during development.
You know that thing when people latch onto a thing from back in the old days and they they are like adamant that this is what old school is.. like you hear a lot of losers running around crying about reloading.. old School shooters don't have reloading.. well system shock was an old school shooter and it did have reloading, and rollerblades and drugs.. it also had prone and analog leaning.. the immersive Sim component for just the original system shock was not necessarily combining ingredients to solve puzzles creatively to make your way through 3D environments.. it was to allow you a variety of options in combat.. that you could mix and match accordingly.. it's more of a tactical shooter nowadays but honestly what is the tactical shooter if not an immersive Sim had it being done right of course.. apply that gameplay to other things and apply that philosophy to other things and eventually you start evolving into Deus ex, or stalker, or prey... in various different offshoots maximizing on various different aspects of that.. but it's the philosophy, and it's in the original pitch document.. I hate to say this but I feel like night dive fell more in love with the rudimentary but still impressive, especially for the time, format of how they tried to carry this out with the technology that they had.. which again was impressive LOL fully 3D in 1994.. well excuse me fully 3D environment, Bethesda 3D.. The idea was you're in a place.. these things are happening.. you have a lot of tools.. go nuts.. make sure you do lots of drugs, and learn from your experiences.. try new things.. try more drugs.. try them with rollerblades.. try the rear-view mirror because designed a game that has more controls in common with Arma in 1994.. but we also just did ultima underworld... and as far as we're concerned this is kind of how you're supposed to like this is how all the kids are are controlling 3D movement. And why wouldn't you.. why would you want to look all the way around while sacrificing to Fidelity within the screen? And.. I've always wanted that marriage, upon which it had a great divorce.. the bastard children of which are VR, and a direction that PC shooters were going before consoles took over his primary development.. something called free aim... Which have done right is absolutely fantastic.. the problem is everybody that experiments with it in a major release is also experimenting with everything else under the sun and you have a game like trespasser.. could have been good but they didn't quite get it there or even close really. System shock could have should have would have if it weren't for a couple of minor and major as a result of things.. first being that the publisher nearly refused to allow any sort of instruction.. they had to fight tooth and nail just to get a title card that showed off what all the displays did as.. as much as you can control with your keyboard you can control with the mouse or vice versa and sometimes not.. the days before custom keybinds.. and just standard keybind ideas.. So the idea is free aim basically.. you turn with either buttons on a HUD, or with the keyboard keys as was tradition back then LOL.. but within that window you had freedom.. you could grab whatever you wanted you can throw where you wanted with the power of mouse! And when you look at the list of controls.. and options like.. I like to give an example of something you're never going to be able to do in the night dive game.. or any game probably ever again.. rollerblade down a hallway while shooting a chain gun then diving into prone behind a filing cabinet then leaning out and throwing a grenade from behind said filing cabinet.. while moving the filing cabinet to adjust your better position and using the environment some sort of interaction to your advantage when the opportunity arises.. all while tripping on psychedelics... How do you achieve this.. they can choose the controls you want in mods or
More ironically the night dive remaster.. upon which laid before you are.. how do you want to do the things you want to do.. and yes there are eight keys for diving into prone.. you don't have to use them.. but you might want to use some of them.. and if this was anything that they could communicate coherently, some of which was communicated coherently and most of which didn't need to be because of the presentation ended up itself and the capabilities.. at the time.. they just kind of was unlike anything ever.. and you really wouldn't start seeing that again until tactical shooter started becoming more common.. and then you'd never see any of that again because we were going to basically fold into a 20-year Time Warp of dual analog controller stagnation.. now the game just plays for you.
What I think night dive was more in love with, was the setting.. and that old school design.. the maze, the hands off approach.. and trying to simplify as best as they could or basically remove all of the extraneous options that you could mix and match to something that was actually reasonably fluid.. if you modded it which was very common back then amongst the tiny amount of people that played this LOL.. or eventually with the remaster which took all those ideas that needed to be done that would never have been done under the circumstances of its release and time and just the experimental nature of it. And it kind of makes sense that night dive would take that perspective.. they spend their time remastering and reupholstering old titles for modern systems.. ironically they also tried to you know make them palatable with like things like expanded options that hadn't been allowed for or visual settings that make coherent sense for modern systems etc.. you know basically kind of all the things that they kind of failed at with this particular release and had been failing ever since they started because they never really got there apparently.. Like we went from trying to rebind, causing aliases to delete themselves or something.. to now you just have to rebind a single key for the game to remember that you might have remapped something every time you open the game up.. you know make sure you remember to reload your ahk specific for this particular game because the thumb buttons on a mouse, maybe don't exist in Canada? Cuz they sure don't exist in this game's input library apparently and God forbid you wanted to rebind any of those inventory items those number keys do not exist in the menu.. and if you really want to break unreal LOL try to add custom key aliases LOL.. thanks Tim Sweeney! Your guidance from your front yard tree is always welcome.. I agree the screen should have more vaseline on it.. make it so make it a best practice make the GDC conference. and what kills me of course is the modern development trend and that shift that they had over the development where they just basically sort of gaslighting everybody after promising an open development. With the community.. and it wasn't like they tried to explain that they had to do something else or it wasn't working.. they just stop talking and they don't have a form anymore they moved everything to a private discord so if you're looking at everything everything looks like a scam.. especially the broken products they keep releasing on distribution sites and ignoring. Mod support would be nice mod support could fix a lot of things.. since the day one that they released something from the unreal switch.. they hadn't figured out how to make a menu of that functioned.. or keys that could be mapped properly.. going up until the release they still hadn't figured out how to make it you know all the way there.. that's maybe something at the very least since it's clear that we may have to rebind our keys, every time we open this game forever lol. I don't know I just don't have a lot of faith in modern developers.. even ones that are so a bashedly in love with the old school.. a lot of that old school always seems to filter out things like John carmack and his philosophies on coding and community.. where we got mods in the first place in a official like actual key component of the industry.. before people forgot what that even was and now don't even think about it as a thing other than those clickbait generating headlines from industry news outlets about the custom models in resident evil that you can play as.. which is really unfair that community has some really cool stuff that's actually cool.. that being said that community is unfair to that community LOL it's not untrue.. the amount of effort that goes into that is.. well live your life I guess.. it clearly is the most important part to get those nipples perfect cuz they were just wrong.. Fact that it's unreal is part of that the very hostile system towards that kind of user friendliness which is ironic again because it's engine was born out of competitions and whatnot.. and it's a tool set that so many people are familiar with.. but yeah you don't want to you don't want to have people messing around in there.. they might not buy your microtransactions right? the only reason that we see some of these older Staples that are really embracing that kind of support is because they came from that era, and as much contempt that I have for Bethesda.. for so many different reasons.. the fact that they've always made that a key component, it's it's really something and it's important and it's not just because they can't bug test their game.. valve seems to be the same way still.. and they're company that can't even release games and have no idea what's going on usually it seems.. There's a large modding community that CD project fostered in that they were hiring them as that's you know.. Europeans are cool like that they do the mod thing well Eastern Europeans anyways. And that has been something that they fought for internally, often just releasing things anyways LOL.. it's gotten to a point where it's a company culture thing and they realize that that's an important thing to the community and it helps themselves. Especially giving how many systems they created for cyberpunk that never saw the main release on a kind of how quickly it had to be thrown together from what they had.. modders didn't create the flying cars.. the flying cars were created by the studio in great detail and they just had no idea how to fit them in the game or the time to do that.. sure is a good thing that there's modders. That being said.. in the game that you have.. with the exception of the one-handed weapons and the sword, the guns are held really reasonably by comparison to most.. gives you an impression that you actually holding them, even if it suffers from that I only have these wrists for some reason on occasions.. and I love that they didn't bother trying to fix it when you look down.. so you really do retract your arms apparently when you're holding the phaser LOL.. like those those arms just shrinking to nubs.. But for the most part like with the pistol and the assault rifles in the shotgun.. it's it's reasonable.. you can lean corners you can do basic environmental things.. that's unfortunately that's a lot more than most nowadays. It's just really too bad that the philosophy of immersion wasn't the thing that they were going for it was the philosophy of sci-fi dungeon crawler.. And those two together could be peanut butter honey and and cigarettes or something.. you know just like a perfect mix.. and usually immersive elements mixed with anything are are end up being a perfect mix.. look at dark Messiah... But the Sci-Fi old school dungeon crawler is a bit more of a niche thing, and it loses a bit of its luster when you don't really have that focus on I'm toting this severed head around, yeah I might need to use it at a retinal scanner but I have a couple others and they don't do anything.. I'm just I'm just having fun I'm just playing soccer here with 1994 physics...
This remake was rebooted specifically because the backers were growing very dissatisfied how the game started looking more and more modern and veering off of the path of staying true to the original. I can hardly fault the devs for keeping it simple. The backers made this possible in the first place so this is more of a praise than critique in my eyes.
Who is to blame besides the devs? They did the game. You think a baker should ask his customers how to bake bread? How about a survey? You think customers know better than the baker how to bake bread? This explanation is absurd. The devs did the game and it's their responsibility.
@@NG-fi1nn How do you propose you manage that in game development? Was there a survey throughout the crowdfunding backers? A democratic survey where you vote on dozens of design decisions? There was not. The audience "taste" wasn't measurable or even defined. People will eat pizza with whatever is there, if the pizza is really good.
@@damazywlodarczyk We'll see how well the game does. A lot of hype is coming from those fans, not from a general player base that would sustain the game well past launch.
@@damazywlodarczyk blamed for what exactly? Staying true to the original vision that was made possible solely by the backers on kickstarter? Steering the ship back on course when the aforementioned group voiced their worries as the game started to look nothing like what was promised and what they supported with their money? Rebooting mid-development taking an enormous risk just to stay true to their word and the fanbase? They can only be commended for that. Even if I, as a non-backer do not get to enjoy the game (along with many other people who agree with the opinions stated in the video - because believe me, this game is not for me either).
System Shock was more of a proto-immersive sim. It was an old school PC dungeon crawler at heart, of the Ultima ilk. Immersive sim design philosophy grew out of the Looking Glass scene from System Shock onward. I would highly suggest you play SS2, Thief, and Deus Ex.
Gotta love how many commenters literally didn't even watch the video before angrily commenting. That Ultrakill vid really buck broke a lot of people I think. Anyway, kinda of agree even though I liked it enough to finish it. It's faithful to the original to its own detriment in a lot of ways, and I say this having played SS:EE years ago. The issue is mainly that they modernized half of the game but left the other half near-identical to the OG. I know that was a kickstarter goal, but honestly it would have been better to stay even more true to the original (jank controls and all) or do a more "full" remaster. Not a bad game by any stretch, but certainly a confused one.
guy tries to dodge the argument that this isn't a shooter, by telling the audience that "there are enemies everywhere". But doesn't even show a single clip with more than 3 enemies on screen. The entire game and the whole immersive sim genre as a whole is about navigating through a maze. There are no more than a couple or so dozen enemies on each level. Even the most modern immersive sims have intentionally "weak" combat. This is a 30 year old game with slightly more intuitive controls and visuals, it's supposed to feel like you are trapped in hell with a pea shooter that hits like a wet noodle. You are supposed to be lost. Sure this genre is not for everybody, but then why even try it? Especially the most "annoying" one in the entire genre too. Complaining that the game isn't as linear and fun and intuitive as doom enternal is just a retarded way to critique a game that is literally older than his dumb ass.
Also is it just me or is it very obvious it's gonna be a bad review when he's constantly referring to games he'd rather be playing than focusing on the one he is reviewing
5:00 About the respawning. Try playing the game on combat difficulty 3, by the time you're back some new enemies will have spawned in the area. System Shock 2 changed the system so respawning costs Credits. And if you feel like that's still too gentle you can challenge yourself by just using the load function like you would in other games.
Despite how this game didn’t work for you, I still implore you to try System Shock 2. It’s the game that made Im sims click for me and you can see traces of modern games all over its design
What's very interesting here is that I get a lot of Mayo's complaints, but some of them are actually changes from the original game. I think Gman's review really puts it well because he points out that the game is really for fans and players of the original game. It won't really endear itself to modern players because it ignores a lot of basic QOL options that would just make it nicer.
@@whodatninja439 I disagree. This is like offering an alternative happy ending to a story that’s about loss. Sometimes we just have to be comfortable with certain media not being very accessible to us by it’s very nature and move on.
Speaking as a fan of the original game, I don't feel like it's for me at all. The garish, pixelated graphical style is like a parody of the original, the scrap/vending machine mechanic is a tedious distraction, the level lighting is much darker than the original, the environments now look busy and over-detailed, the playable intro is awful compared to the slick original intro cutscene, the ambient "music" is boring compared to the original music, and the constant unskippable pickup/use animations are a pain in the ass. What this does feel like is a game that was made specifically to draw in gamers who like Bioshock, Dead Space, and boomer shooters. Every aspect of the original game has been twisted toward this goal.
I understand your frustrations with the game, but I personally like the bulk of the aspects that you see as problems. For instance, for me it's not about 'hand-holding,' so much as it is actual immersion. Just like in real life, if you don't pay attention to what someone is telling you at the time, you may easily misunderstand or forget important objective. I personally appreciate that, though I can see why people wouldn't enjoy that in a game. The one part that I do have to counter is your understanding of the Restoration Stations/Cyborg Conversion Chambers, which I feel are critical to the storyline. Until you locate and find one, you're vulnerable and can be killed. It's a primary objective to enable easier exploration. I do understand the desire for a bit of a penalty to dying, and that is something they did add to System Shock 2 (respawning costs a small amount of 'money'), but the simple fear of setback or potential permanent death always kept me on my toes. I feel the respawn system adds to the story and the game overall. Overall, solid review even if I personally disagree with most of your opinions on the game.
Never played System Shock but both of your description of restoration stations sounds plain bad game design. Like, you have risk of death when starting the game... And then never again? It just sounds like it would suck all tension away
@@gJonii No, there are places where you can die regardless of the restoration station, like Grove Beta or fighting against bosses. I think you can also die permanently if you're out of range of a restoration station, but I need to recheck that. You're also looking at the restoration station wrong because it's actually a reward for paying attention to the plot of the game, and is something you could easily skip by if you don't have the required information to activate it. Or worse, if you activate it incorrectly, you are turned into a cyborg instead and it's another game over. If you actually immerse yourself into the world, it adds greatly to the story of the game, too, as you set back SHODAN's control and gain a respawn point with every station you take control of.
@@gJonii Actually no. In the original if you haven't enabled the restoration station on your current floor, you would get the end game screen (which is still a fact if you play on the hardest difficulty). What they did in the remake is that they allow you to respawn on the closest level that has the restoration station. But they still made it that you die if you fight "Cortex Reavers" or a boss, or you are in a situation where "storywise" you are cut of from the restoration stations. So, yes it does sound like a mixed bag but it actually allows for a lot of flexibility in how you approach the game. What I noticed with a good portion of "younger" generations of gamers (I am 41 btw) is that when they are given a hard save system they automatically see it as less of a chanllenge, or think that the game is too easy. But NO ONE is forcing you to use it to save scum. Make a hard save at the beginning of each floor and then don't save until you reach the next floor. Wanna play ironman mode? Fine. Save only when you are done playing a session. That way when you die and don't have the restoration station active you just don't reload and start the new game. It just give you flexibility to play the way you want. I for example love to live with consequences in my games so I might even save after a tough fight which I barely survived, patch myself and continue on or even run back to "Maintenance floor" where I keep extra items stashed next to the recycler and freight elevator. The magic of this type of games are the interconnected system. It is a "simulation". The game track each and every item on the station so if you dropped something it will stay there. Ohh and there is even a system where if the items somehow gets stuck or drops through geometry it will despawn and you can then find it in the garbage chute which is located on one of the decks. TL:DR - You can choose how you want to play. It is not a bad game design it is actually a game design that support numerous styles of play. Like properly supports them. It is just that people are used to most of the modern games being "set dressing" and unless you tell them that they can do this or that, they will never even think to try it out.
@@ServantOfBoron ı think its just extrinsic and intrinsic motivation thing. intrinsic people are the type that will use just a pistol if the game is too easy or try a new strategy just to see how it is but extrinsic people will do something for the reward and for its efficiency, they'll abuse an exploit or a mechanic if it gives them the better results thats just how they are. These people don't go for walks unlike intrinsic people because there is no point to it, there has to be a goal and/or a reward for them like going to the shop to buy something (goal) or improve stamina (reward). They are also mixed with being a bit ruthless and heartless but thats outside of video game territory. Me personally ı still play games like Counter-strike and Quake with the intention to win. There is a competitiveness deep within my brain and actively trying to do something when you know for a fact that there is a more efficient option and not because you lack the skill or the resources but because you intentionally chose the worse option just feels ... wrong. There was a dev talk about XCOM and they used the term ''How game designers protect players from themselves'' ı think thats something everyone should check out if they wanna dive deep into devs ideas when they are making a game with extrinsic people in mind.
I think I've played System Shock too much, because the hallways don't all look the same to me. Besides, it's easiest if you break each level up into its quadrants: Alpha, Beta, Delta, and Gamma. Medical Level is blue and has octagonal corridors with blue square textures (and a crazy radioactive area that's all messed up). Medical is red and has narrow rectangular hallways (and a mess of ventilation shafts). Maintenance is orange and dark, is basically a small circle, and you die every 2 seconds from invisible mutants. Engineering is gray, sometimes red, and has very tall hallways. Storage is light blue and has branching paths to big rooms. Flight Deck has..flight decks, an ornate hallway, and a mess of maintenance shafts. Crew Quarters has black marble floors and a lot of red wall paneling. The groves are freaking awesome. Security..crap, I didn't make it that far in the remake. XP Sorry to be so patronizing. I know these hallways a bit too well, I suppose... Anyway, the remake is a lot better than I expected, but I really prefer the original. The remake is tedious with its inventory system and crazy enemy spawning. ENOUGH WITH THE HOPPERS! GYAT DANG!
4:41 personally I'm a bigger fan of the of the idea of no pause during gameplay with a limited save system. It really keeps you on the edge and makes you consider time as a factor. For slower games like these it's perfect imo.
@@morkgin2459 It kind of is, in an old school way. If the enemy hasn't seen (or heard) you, you can walk past or do an ambush. No, there isn't a "stealth critical" attack, or "stealth kill", but there is still some sort of stealth possible if you want to avoid the enemies, or lay out traps via mines corner ambushes.
@@matthewbrandt5053 Considering the fact that System Shock 2023 doesn't use the Dark Engine or anything remotely similar, stealth really isn't a playstyle. I've tried my best to sneak up on enemies with pipe, wrench, and laser rapier, and they all turn around and smash me in the face all the same. Not that System Shock 2 really made much use of the Dark Engine, but it had that option for players who really wanted to instakill turrets by carefully avoiding all light sources, moving slowly to not make any noise, and giving a single wrench to the CPU when it doesn't notice you 3 inches in front of it.
The idea with the save states is that it's there for people who want it, and if you don't want to use it then you can ignore it. This is a common demand for the old school fans like those who funded the project. That's why you find a mix of save systems in many crowd-funded old-school games.
I saw someone on twitter skinning you over this video so I came here to see why people were pissed. As a fan of the original, I can totally see why this didn't gel with you. The original was obtuse and full of antiquated design, but seeing as how this was a game made for fans of the original, funded by those same people, it's not a surprise it turned out this way. But... It doesn't excuse it. This was the perfect opportunity to open this game up to a wider audience and sticking to the original caused it to stay an obscure classic.
Yeah. And i said clearly what I liked, I said i totally get why it's gonna be good for original fans, and stated that most of my issues are basically just personal and it statements about the game's quality. People simply can't handle their game not resonating with someone.
I agree so much with this, especially when it's sequel is what defined its established genre. I was expecting the remake to, put some of those innovations and make it available to a wider audience, I wasn't entirely disappointed about it not being a great remake, it is quite a good one. Though indeed it feels dated and kinda has this 90s gate other games don't even have from the same era, like, you could easily get into Blood from then and play its spiritual successors
You can’t serve two masters, unfortunately. The devs didn’t have the resources of a major AAA studio so they really didn’t have much wiggle room with the remake. They deserve praise for making it more accessible where they could, within the confines of the expectations of old-school fans. It does seem like certain parts could’ve been cut though to reduce tedium (the cyberspace sections)
@@thegamerfe8751 I think they mean the discussion between the different Resident Evil remakes. On one "side" of the coin, you have something like the RE3 remake, where it isn't particularly faithful to the original at all, in either presentation (camera view), combat, or content (much less content in the remake compared to the original). That "side" is changing too much. This side of the coin might be not changing enough things, depending on how you feel the System Shock remake. Certainly the visuals have been updated but, by and large, little else has been updated outside of making System Shock play natively with a modern control scheme. That is just my guess at what they mean though.
System Shock 2 is definitely worth trying even now. I played in in 2020 for the first time and it instantly became one of my favorite games of all time.
Agreed. I never played SS1, but I did play SS2 when it came out and loved it. Have played it again since and yup - still one of the greats. As for this game - yeah, I kinda agree with most of the things in this video. I forced myself through the remake, but I can't say I really loved it. I think it's mainly because I've always wanted more structure in the games I play. I'm 40, so I was a gamer in the 90s, but even back then I struggled when a game didn't give me concrete objectives. Yes, in SS1 the overall objective is clear, but the things you have to do to get there... well, I guess I'm not the target audience for SS1. SS2 is still an absolute masterpiece, though.
Mayo, the game you're looking for is System Shock 2. Don't worry, it's quite a different game from SS1. Once you'll play it, you'll see where Prey 2017 got most of its, uh... everything lol. And that's not me taking a dig at Prey, I love that game. But I'll put it this way: Arkane liked to make their own versions of Looking Glass/Irrational games. Arx Fatalis is Arkane's Ultima Underworld. Dishonored is Arkane's Deus Ex. Prey is Arkane's System Shock 2. Once you try it, you'll see what I mean. It's very, VERY obviously the mould that Prey was made in. I have no doubt you'll enjoy SS2.
Dishonored isn't the equivalent to deus ex. It's theif that it's going for. Raphaël Colantonio (the director of these games) even said it so himself. He was a huge fan of theif and wanted to create something in its vein.
@@bruhder5854 I've been dealing with people saying this since Dishonored came out. It's fundamentally nonsensical and serves as a 'how would you feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning' test of gaming. For one, I have never once found Raphael Colantonio saying any such thing. I've seen him and Harvey Smith say Thief influenced them, but that's almost always in the same breath as they list Ultima Underworld and Deus Ex and System Shock 2 as their influences, as well. Sometimes, they'll narrow it down to 'Thief and Deus Ex'. And I've never seen either of them say, "This is our take on Thief." They have said, "We take influence from the level design and some of the world design of Thief." Now that that's out of the way - Dishonored and Thief share almost no key similarities. Thief's sound propagation system? Gone. Stealth reliant on light and dark? Gone. A weak main character with poor combat effectiveness? Gone. A focus on going slow? Gone. (This is deliberate and follows from a conversation Harvey and Raph had with Doug Church.) Thief's sense of progression being tied directly to gadgets available to you, rather than making Garrett more powerful with abilities? Gone. So... every notable part of Thief's design as a stealth game has been removed. Hm, but Dishonored has stealth, so what does it resemble? Oh, right, Deus Ex. Deus Ex also does not have light/dark stealth, nor a focus with sound that accompanies a sound propagation engine. Deus Ex also has your character get more powerful over the course of the game via abilities you choose (cybernetics rather than powers). Dishonored's stealth is literally Deus Ex's stealth, just with a more responsive character. Like Deus Ex, Dishonored's stealth has a LOT less options for the stealth-inclined player than Thief, because it's not the focus. Someone going into Dishonored expecting basically a new Thief game will be sorely disappointed. Dishonored also has Deus Ex's larger freedom of approach. In Thief, you're expected to be a thief and play stealthily. Deus Ex did not opt to do that, though made this a playstyle you could go for if you wanted, but it gave you the tools and abilities to play through in a number of other completely different ways if you chose to. Dishonored follows this model exactly. Dishonored general structure also resembles Deus Ex more, even down to having the pub be a lot like UNATCO HQ. Level design in general also bears substantially more resemblance to Deus Ex than it does to Thief, though that's not to say there's no Thief influence at all, but it's clear that Deus Ex was the primary inspiration. It really is just mindboggling how people continue to state this very obviously incorrect point about Dishonored being some successor to Thief, when playing even the first level in the prison demonstrates in profound fashion that this is not the case at all. The closest Arkane *ever* got to Thief was, weirdly enough, the stealth in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, which actually *was* influenced by how light or dark the area you were standing in was. It didn't *work* very well, but it's at least more like it than Dishonored. I'm not even bothered that Dishonored doesn't play like Thief. That's fine. They wanted to make their own Deus Ex, so they did. But it does bother me how widespread this utterly baseless idea is and has been for over a decade. It's a really remarkable indicator of whether someone actually assesses what it is they're playing or not.
Buut it is quite negative review saying that game has a lot of flawed things in it being like, 90%. Even if it's something I'd consider to be true only partly it's still just a 21 minutes talking about the mistakes Nightdive have made
I appreciate the down to earth review, some of the issues listed are either inconsequential to me or partly the reason i'm looking forward to it. Sticking to the source material has it's price, i'm glad it's paid sometimes.
The game is a very faithful remake of the original with updated controls and slightly improved combat... the stuff you don't like about it are basically the same things you would not like about the original System Shock.
Some of the things people dislike about this game are actual purposful design choices. The levels are designed to stress you out. You can find in game lore stating that the space station itself was an experiment to observe people in a long term stressfuly designed space. This game isn't trying to distract you with spectacle. It's forcing you to focus if you want to make progress. It involves deduction. You can mark areas on the map to help you remember but you're better off if you actively try to memorize the level layouts. If you get frustrated you have to remember that there is a logical foundation to everything in this game. Somewhere there is an audio log or text that hints at what to do next.
This is easily the most truthul remake that has ever been made for any video game. They literally took almost everythi g as it is. Including annoying, outdated thing.
I think that the way System Shock remake allows the player to solve problems on their own without being directly guided is a fantastic aspect of the game. However Mayo's complaints also ring true. I think adding some small features would actually improve the experience quite a bit, for instance having a note system. This would allow the player to write down their objectives, instead of having to go by memory alone. The game actually already requires writing down notes, so it's insane that it cannot be done in-game. The whole idea of immersive sims is to remove as many barriers between the player and the game as possible, and having an in-game note system would be a great way to capitalize on that.
Im gonna be pedantic, but I feel like it makes a difference. Prey is a spiritual successor to system shock 2 not system shock 1. SS1 and SS2 are different games, SS1 is more of a dugeon crawler while SS2 is more of the immersive sim that would become the main influence to 2017s Prey
Nevermind, im not being pedantic at all. All of this review is based on the assumption that this game should have been like prey. Its ridiculous and honestly embarrassing, perfect example of the modern gamer syndrome: I will loudly complain that this game doesn't conform to my sensibilities while having no desire to put in any effort into trying to understand what its trying to do.
@@gbacl Yeah but you can't just take stuff from the 90s and slap it unto a modern release. System Shock 2 improved upon the sequel a lot, and if that is the definitive version or vision, isn't it better to just take stuff from it rather than rehash age old ideas and make essentially the same game with similar flaws?
@@gbacl Except Mayo did in fact try to give it a fair chance, it's not like he's played it for 2 hours and haven't seen all this game has to offer. Or do you have to get a PhD to be able to "understand" what this game is trying to do? Also, where did he even say this game "should have been like Prey"? He used Prey as an example of some things it does better considering we are not in 1994 anymore and SS Remake was not constrained by limitations the original might have been constrained by (if there were any constraints to begin with).
The original game had a way to take notes of objectives in game. And sorry if I'm not impressed by levels that all look the same, whimpy feeling guns, boring basic AI, a recycling system that doesn't make sense, and a broken save system.
It's one of those games that require additional patience. Sometimes they can be rewarding, for me Pyre, MGS5 and DMC5 were hard to get into, but I liked them in the end
Immersive sims: [Are not like Doom Eternal, as in slow and heavily puzzle based, also heavy stat management and funky UI in the case of the OG System Shock] Mayo in his head: "Why you no be like Doom Eternal?!" On a more serious note, I always wondered if there was an immersive sim who bassicly have speed and momentum as a prominent mechanic à la Sonic 1 (And that fps game based on a lack of friction, but it ain't immersive sim. I don't remember its name). Like, one of the ways you could beat an enemy would be that you can use the velocity you stored and bash into them. Shoutouts to the little character in the original System Shock you can drag to lean. Even in a non-intereactible form he's so cute when he shmooves. May he rest in data. And to paraphrase a famous Immersive Sim "expert", Charlatan Wonder (even if it makes me cringe a bit); Make art, not content.
It's pretty funny/depressing how a video can go heavy on comparisons to Prey and speak clearly about immersive sim mechanics but some people only hear Doom. Weird too.
The whole “hand holding” section wouldn’t be an issue if you just played the game on easy mode where the devs added objective markers? Like, maybe suck up the ego and play on easy if listening to audio logs is too much of a hassle….I played System Shock enhanced edition like 4 years ago and had no issues with the original?
Hm. I never played original System Shock but I LOVED the Remake. EDIT: I think the restoration bays work more as a reward mechanic for clearing the way to that specific bay. It makes your life easier in that part of the station. On higher difficulty the game just lets you die when it is not activated on the current level, plus there are cases in which you will die regardless in context of where you are in the story. It's different but imo not broken or unnecessary
This will be a long one, because I'm a long winded blowhard and I'm also trying to figure out why I just didn't connect with this when everyone else seemingly has; I know this video is "old" by modern standards, but I feel like you're helping me get my thoughts together. The original System Shock came out when I was 10, though I didn't play it at the time because I didn't get into PC gaming until about a year later when I got the Shareware of Doom. That said, I was a voracious reader of PC Gamer at the time and I remember the staff always mentioning System Shock and how amazing it was. Later in the 90's, I got into the "Im Sim" genre through Thief, later Deus Ex and I've loved them ever since and played just about every one I can think of. In 2020, at the height of the Pandemic, I decided to give System Shock Enhanced Edition a go and while I was only able to play maybe an hour a night or so, I absolutely LOVED it. It had a real sense of place, atmosphere and while the graphics are dated, it felt to me that I really was aboard Citadel station and investigating what happened here. I absolutely loved the game and couldn't put it down, I ended-up finishing it at 22-hours. Sure it has it's 90's jank, but a lot of it didn't bother me and I was very willing to forgive it. Cut to the Remake, which I bought on release due to my experience with the original a few years earlier. I did end-up putting in a similar amount of time as you, 11-hours, but I just never connected with it. The environment feels boring and bland, the combat is extremely floaty and has no heft, everything looks the same. Where the original felt like it had a sense of place and I did feel like I could build a mental map, the Remake lacks that and I suspect that has to do with the bland graphical style they chose for this. The added mechanics (recycling) feel obnoxious and constantly in the way (as you've pointed out) and I don't feel add anything to the game; the constant animations after picking-up an audio log or keycard or whatever are completely unnecessary and slow down the game dramatically. The Remake feels like it has no tension and I'm not exactly sure why, but my working hypothesis is that the controls are so modern and fluid, unlike the original, that nothing feels like a threat. In the original, you're slow, you move like a tank and when you come across an enemy, suddenly you need to switch Mouse Cursor modes so that you can actually aim. It feels tense, because you do have to fight the controls somewhat and in this regard, I'd almost suggest that it feels similar to Resident Evil, where having the challenging controls is part of the experience and what gives the game a lot of it's tension. Hopefully this makes some sense, it's pretty much all stream of consciousness, but I'm trying to really work out why the game just feels Blah to me when I loved the original, even having only played it as an adult. I feel like I'm in the wrong here because so many people love it, but I just can't get along with it for whatever reason.
So I played and beat the original System Shock earlier this year for the first time without a guide and there’s absolutely a lot of context that matter. And I wanna be clear non of this is to invalidate the video all of their complaints are valid but I think context matters a lot. Straight up nearly all of your complaints are still in the original but are more understandable in the context of a game from 1994. A lot of the problems arise from this being faithful to the point of inheriting all of the originals flaws and choosing to leave them in, however playing the game in 2023 with a wrapper of a modern game gives the expectation that there would be more modern quality of life features and there just isn’t. For me personally my favourite thing about the original that flys in the face of modern design and expectations is the insane reliance on audio-logs and out of game note taking. And while that was absolutely my favourite part of the original I was shocked playing the Demo when I realised they didn’t add a quest log for some bizarre reason. While playing I would always tab out and write my own pseudo quest log when listening to audio logs. When someone said we need to do X to accomplish Y but we need to get Z from the gamma quadrant on level 4 beforehand. I had meticulous notes and always knew exactly what I should be doing and where I should be going. So the fact they didn’t add a modern quest log that auto updates from picking up audio logs while being a huge part of the originals appeal in 1994 its frankly baffling in 2023 The other thing that really bothered me playing the remake demo is that in the original on top of placing map markers you were also able to label the markers and they would appear in your minimap, so even if the environments were very maze like you felt as though you were charting it out, placing markers for guidance (energy station, healing pod, elevator 1, entrance to beta quadrant, access to biopod 3), so even though the map was a maze the slow and methodical exploration combined with meticulous mapping, detailed markers and a more zoomed out minimap that actually showed the markers and their labels made it so by the time you finished exploring a floor you actually knew your way around pretty well with just your minimap and familiarity with the area, And a lot of that is lost here. The last thing I want to touch on is cyberspace, and again I’m basing my impressions on the demo, but cyberspace was always bad in the original, awkward to control and clumsy to to navigate however they were short, you were rarely in there more then 2 minutes at a time and I’d be surprised if I spent maybe 30 minutes total in cyberspace across my entire playthrough. So imagine my surprise in the demo when they fixed the controls, made the environments nicer and the solid walls weren’t wireframes and made it easier to actually navigate the spaces……. Except now I got lost in cyberspace because all the walls look the Same the 6 DOF movement makes it really easy to get turned around and all the walls look the same, where as in the original wire frames made ir so you could always see a path forward or which path led where. and woops I died gotta do it all again and by the time I was done that first cyberspace level it’d be like 10-20 goddamn minutes in a section that literally took 2 in the original game and always felt like a side distraction. Also the scrap and vending system is bizarre, it just straight up wasn’t in the original at all. I worry the extra clutter can make actually important items blend in, I just kind of ignored them in the demo so no option on that just figured I’d mention it. But yeah just wanted to throw some thoughts into the void, it’s interesting to see a blind new players viewpoint because this is an experience I think a lot of people are going to have.
Thank you. I figured a blind perspective would be important to represent when 99% of the coverage is gonna be from people who know the original. Even if it gets hate because of it.
I agree with in most things, but there is one I have to disagree, the ''bafling'' exclusion of the quest log. As yourself noted, it made you engage more in the experience and plot, made you listen carefully to the audiologs. It is the same for me, I just finished engineering, but I have listened to some audiologs and they talk about at least 2 ways of netralizing Shodan (spoilers ahead), some audiologs talk about overheating the reactor to destroy the space station while other talk about using a chip to delete SHODAN, an I don't know yet what it will be, or how, but the necessity of listening to audiologs made I think about the plot much more than I would. I I actually fooled at the start in thinking the game didn't even had an objective, I listened to some audiologs talking about the mining laser and did't give them much mind because I had never ever before played a game where audiologs where important to gameplay, so when I got to an plotwall demanding I go back and deactivate the laser I was amazed that now I had to open each audiolog an listen to them again to see what the hell I was suposed to do. If there where quest logs I would probably complete the quest in my way while still ignoring the audiologs
I’ve been following this kickstarter for years: the developers originally wanted to revamp the source material more, but there was a big community pushback. So I guess the backers got what they wanted: a game with many dated elements, but a more accurate remake.
@@roble8943 They don't, was there a democratic survey where they asked their backers about dozens of creative decisions? No. The backers only gave money.
Having beaten the original System Shock I can say for certain that requiring you to find the conversion chamber on each floor just led to a lot of tedious running back to the surgical machine on Medical Deck after every fight. If anything, sending you back to the chamber on the last floor and starting you with half health just streamlines things and encourages you to play riskier and use more resources.
I think whenever we get a system shock 2 remake that will be the one you end up really liking. System shock 1 was really early but 2 really adapted upon the prey like structure of the game. I love this for bringing system shock to modernized mechanics. System Shock 2 is going to be amazing whenever that gets picked up
The peak of Immersive Sim was Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2. Those defined the genre. System Shock was, together with Ultima, the precursors. Like comparing Wolfestein with Doom.
The funny thing is they even have an explanation in lore as to why the station is designed the way it was. Trioptimum was gathering data from its employees on the psychological effects of extended stays in cramped and mundane environments. The data was suppsoed to be used for the eventual plot device in SS2.
Yeahhh, quite a lot of this comes from them being faithful (which in some cases I done mind, others I do). At one point, they wanted this to be more ambitious, reimagining the game, but it was far too much work in the end. However, stuff like lacking impact in combat, no making map notes from the OG and iffy implementation of recycling are a shame, because a lot of improvements were highly requested by many during development (including myself), and I wish that it was given MORE time so they could take that feedback and actually apply it. I'll gladly enjoy it still, as I enjoyed the original plenty and this is the same but generally better, but yes... it's a very tough thing to enjoy for many. The game worked best as the Enhanced Edition, where it's clearly still a game of the time, with everything intact. I'm glad you understand that it's a very subjective thing, though. I personally LOVE the very open, "get lost"-type exploration, and the strange puzzles are much more involved than the ones in the original SS1, in a good way. About PREY 2017, I enjoy it plenty for different reasons. It's probably the best iteration of the immersive sim genre (I certainly enjoy it a LOT more than Bioshock), and the set objective with many ways to get to it approach is such a breath of fresh air after both the most ludicrously open and linear games were the previous major releases in the genre. PREY is still the one I'd absolutely recommend to anyone, while System Shock and its remake... less so, but it still gets my personal recommendation to those who can tough through it. Great video!
It's true that Prey is the most accessible but it's also true that because of that it's one of the easiest in the ImSIn design philosophy space. I've yet to play the SS remake but if it fills the difficulty niche then i think that's necessary even if it's at a cost to accessibility
i really dont like bioshock. the atmosphere is cool but i enjoy nothing about yur game really. i do like the third one but thats just a straight up shooter funnily enough, playing the demo for the System Shock remake is what got me to finally play Prey.
I didn’t play this as a kid. I saw the art as a kid and wanted to know what it was. Only a few years ago did I finally play thru the System Shock games and I loved them. I have no nostalgic feeling for them but I know a game like it would have captivated me as a kid. Seeing the game remastered like Resident Evil 1 was by capturing every aspect of the original game was exactly what I wanted. Can totally understand though how it wouldn’t appeal to others. It doesn’t hold your hand and you can get lost easily. I know I did trying to find Diego’s office. Oddly enough I think I had the same exact issue when I first played the game. I always seem to miss the main hallway leading to the central hub on the Executive level.
I haven't played many releases since the early 2000's and the ones I did touch were mediocre at best (I'm talking AAA). Convenience has made us allergic to anything that's not streamlined to the latest trend. I see nothing wrong with this game and the choices the devs made.
The reviewer:: This isn't for me The audience: And I took that personally No seriously. I wasn't even born when the game came out, and I only got into immsims proper a few years ago. I held off playing System Shock until the remake was out, hoping that the remake would give me the authentic experience... and it did. And it's a bit underwhelming for me too, though my reasons aren't the same and I still overall like the game. I find lack of objective clarity okay so far. I wouldn't mind having some generic quest prompt on screen (example: "Decrease the security level" or "Find and destroy the CPU nodes") but I figured most of it out myself so far, except for not noticing the number in the first CPU node room which I still have to come back for. I really don't get the confusion, at least so far. Maybe I'm too early in the game? Except people seem to say the early game is the most confusing sooooooooo... One of the things I personally don't like is the map design. It's a bit labirynthy. It's okay when exploring, but when backtracking having to go through half the map just to reach a room that's right next to my current room map wise is a little annoying. It's definitey an attention span thing, but yeah... walking around forever gets annoying, especially if I'm just trying to sell off a bunch of items. Anyways, idk. It's easy to sum up someone else's view of a game as "it's not this other game that I like, therefore it sucks" and it's easy to find that stupid, especially if you feel really passionately about the game yourself. It's a reductive way to see it though. If someone showed me the best horror movie in existance I still wouldn't like it if I don't like horror movies and prefer comedy. You could sum that up as "it's not a comedy" and if you say it funny enough it might sound like an invalid thing to say, but do I really have to like horrors? Is it a mandatory thing? Back to the game... he states it's just his opinion? And he's entitled to it? And first thing he does in the video is say multiple times it's just how he feels and that he still appreciates the legacy? Holy crap you people really just can't let someone have their own preferences. Internet mobs are stupid.
Yeah it really doesn't matter how clearly you state the difference between the bits you just personally don't resonate with, and the parts you do think are actual flaws. To some people it just means you hate it, don't get it, and suck. The response to this isn't nearly as bad as other though.
Dunno how I missed this vid being posted. I gotta say, I like that the game is moddable to some degree, making all junk 1x1 and stackable, along with making the recycler larger really cuts down on the tedium. Also used a mod to make the gun in the hacking section do 4x damage because I simply am not feeling them, they are long and you can miss stuff while I want to explore and find logs and junk. Sure the mods will make getting the achievement for the hardest difficulty easier, but tedium just isn't fun. As for it being an ImmSim, its a proto one, it lacks the real ImmSim qualities that would come with later games
19:08 Because the game you are looking for is System Shock 2 and Deus Ex, its like going in DooM 1993 with new sprites and saying it doenst have glory kills or the maps are almost maze like.
I'm honestly impressed they made a game remake still feel very similar to the way it did back in the day. Yes, it is dated, and yes, I agree that sticking to the original isn't always such a good idea, especially since a lot of remakes do make or break with adding newer things. But in this era it's rather different to have a game that feels dated for all intents and purposes because it was originally. Also I wish they remake System Shock 2, it's where things really started.
@@danielgeronimo5538 If a System Shock 3 is made, it's going to be a copy of the Bioshock formula and alienate fans again. The minds behind System Shock and System Shock 2 moved on to make Bioshock, and they never went back.
@@commode7x I won't go that far, Prey 2017 understood the genre and formula and got so many things right, when Ken Levine threw away everything that made the Shock series any good, including BioShock.
I guess whether Nightdive takes on SS2 next will depend on how well this remake does for them. I know the CEO is a huge System Shock fan, so if this game does well, I think he'd happily remake SS2, too. This remake seems to have been mostly well received, so here's hoping. I absolutely love SS2 and a modern remake would be awesome, if done well. SS3 would also be cool, but yeah... seems doubtful that'll happen anytime soon.
Honestly,For what's it worth...I am just happy the kick starter didn't turn into a mess and the backers got EXACTLY what they backed for instead of turning into...ya know,Mighty no 9. This game may not be for everyone but for the ones who backed this up all the way back in 2016 ? They got their money's worth.
Restoration bays and the wait for recyclers felt like an oddity to me in the remake. Although there's little reason to not vaporize the junk you find instead of scrap them in bulk, if one sought to loot all junk at all. Ultimately, I think it was primarily designed around decision making and possible time wasting for if you play on level "3" difficulty for Mission, giving you a 10 hour time limit to finish the game. That and probably padding for lower difficulties. That's a guess of mine, though. I haven't tried "3333" difficulty yet for a second playthrough, though I'm planning to after a couple of updates.
As someone who is playing system shock 1 for the first time this game is great, I like the minimum directions to player approach it makes me use my head instead of following a marker everywhere, the AI is simple but I think that was more a deliberate choice as the combat isn't fluid enough for quick enemies, as far as the aesthetics are concerned I like it the environment has a cold metallic feel to it and reminds me of alien I can see how this game laid the foundation for the immersive Sim genre but I still think the og deus ex is the pinnacle of that design philosophy.
@@-jobrocodwawz-6226 lemme ask something. Is the AI or atleast the combat in Deus Ex good? Haven't tried that game yet, and are you referring to the old Deus Ex game?
@@kyradflinko62 yes I'm referring to the original Deus Ex. The combat and AI aren't the best in terms of games today but are completely functional and aren't bad at all. The main hook of the game IMO is just how much you can do. Any objective you get will have like 10 intended and 100 more unintended ways to complete them and you can spec into any kind of playstyle you want and it works. Imagine ss2 if every build you could make was viable, there were way more possible builds and youre a cyborg cop who has to uncover conspiracies while being a general badass. Plus there are soooo many moments in the game where different things happen based on your actions organically and not shoved in your face. DEUS EX IS the video game of all time and what we wanted cyberpunk to be Edit: ever heard the meme "if someone mentions Deus Ex on the internet you have to replay it"? Looks like I'm gonna have to replay it lol. FYI I'd recommend a lore friendly graphical mod just so the old models and textures aren't too jarring
Dude great critique and feel sharing. I love that you openly address that there are some people who will like what you don't like. I love the game specifically for the lack of info, and the stressfull level design. I find it to be a harsh endurance run. It's the same difference between DND 1e and 5e. 5e is softcore and more heaivly interested in roleplaying for a lot of people with lots of reailroading even for DM's with an unbalanced challenge rating in favor of the players. 1e was a hardcore dungeon crawl. Good point though is that preay is basically a more streamlined spiritual successor to it. I really love immersive sims myself. Loved the video.
Everything I've seen points to this game being made primarily for fans of the original, which I respect. I don't mind the 90s jank but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
I think the remake paints the original game in a worse light than it deserves. NightDive has stayed true to things about the original game that ought to have been redesigned (boxy mazelike level design, simplistic enemy AI, free respawning, no objective tracking) while also obscuring or forgetting things about the original that made it great (clean and vibrant visual design that made areas look distinct, upbeat electronic music, snappy short puzzles, freeform movement), and also adding superfluous stuff like the recycling system which is super undercooked from a UI/UX standpoint and a balance standpoint as you already can find more resources than you need without it. There are things about the original that worked that no longer work in the remake, but they're subtle things that you wouldn't know unless you played the original, so the flaws of the remake seem to stem from faithfulness to the original when this is not exactly the case. For example, figuring out where to go and what to do was EASIER in the original game despite the lack of objective tracking, as there was much less visual clutter and you could instantly scan a room to see what was there to pick up -- it's the same reason the RE4 Remake had to cover every important prop in yellow paint. This also made it easier to pick out landmarks as the level geometry wasn't obscured by busy details and high-contrast lighting. I'd also argue the audio logs were quicker and more to the point, and it was easier to look over their text while playing, vs. in the remake you have to stay in the media tab to read the text. These map details also get in the way of the player physics, which was a big innovative element in the original game, letting you jump and bounce with simulated momentum, whereas the remake is much stiffer with your running and jumping. You could mantle a lot of surfaces in the original, where now you have to find a ladder which locks you into a restrictive climbing animation. You can find a set of rocket skates in System Shock, which were a joy to use in the original to speed around the map at turbo speed because it was designed as a 3D skatepark playground with straightaways and ramps, but the remake puts railings and posts all over for realism which further cramps your once expressive degree of player control. Prey's jetpack actually has its roots in System Shock's rocket skates and jet boots which also played into a Metroidvania element for unlocking new areas, but you wouldn't really get that feeling playing the remake. The original game had even worse enemy AI, but the combat was actually more fun for a few key reasons. Firstly, blood from mutants and sparks from robots together with punchy sound effects made for really effective hit feedback -- a missed lead pipe swing would audibly whiff through the air while a hit on a mutant would let out a squelchy crunch vs. a metallic clang on a hard surface. In the remake you barely get the sense that you're damaging enemies, they hardly stagger, and the sounds are pitiful. What's more, the simplistic AI of the original didn't hurt the tension of combat, because you had to manually manage your weapons and character state much more explicitly. There were two states of crouch and an analog lean which had to be mastered alongside the basic movement (the original game didn't support mouselook) to effectively use cover. There were no hotkeys to reload or swap ammo types; you had to open your weapon interface panel, press the button to unload your current magazine, and then choose an ammo type to load. If you were already empty, then you'd have to remember to only click once as you were already unloaded, simulating tactical vs speed reloads. The reload was instant save for the time to mouse over to the weapon interface panel, so you could actually get faster at reloading as a player, and have the panel queued up in the same way a prepared combatant would have their reserve magazines at the ready. The same weapon interface panel was used to tune the energy settings of your laser weapons. Was it clunky at first? Yes, but mastering it was key to the depth and challenge of the combat. No one expected NightDive to keep this manual degree of control in the remake, but I had hoped they would have beefed up the other aspects of the challenge to make up for the streamlined interface and modern controls, particularly in the enemy behaviors. They're a little more sophisticated, but only just barely, and the combat isn't satisfying enough to make up for it. The respawn chambers seem nonsensical and consequence-free in the remake. They weren't perfect in the original, but i think they were more defensible. For one, enemy respawning was much more aggressive. Though not on a random timer like in SS2, certain populations of enemies would respawn in large numbers when enough of them were killed, making it very likely that you had to deal with more enemies as you retraced your steps on dying and respawning. The respawing system truly shined in repeat playthroughs on the maximum Mission difficulty, which placed a global 7 hour timer on your run. Dying and respawning (as well as cheese strats like running to the healing bed and exploiting enemy AI around corners with low power ammo) was a big waste of time, which was crucial to optimize as you gathered resources and tackled objectives. The remake still features this mission timer difficulty setting, but few players will want to attempt it considering how much slower the gameplay is; your movement is more restricted, the cyberspace and puzzles take twice as long (the original puzzle mechanics were much better), and navigating the station and searching for items is that much more mentally taxing. Obviously, the original game is dated and flawed, and it won't be everyone's cup of tea. But I think it actually has greater appeal and more solid design than the remake, which is faithful in content but not really in spirit. It pains me that people are attributing the flaws of the remake to the original, when in reality the latter had a more coherent vision. Also there's no flechette machine gun in the remake, LAME
Well put. The remake lacks the "simulation" aspects that made the original so unique. I don't think enough improvements were made with how the combat feels to make up for it. Regarding visuals, the Remake falls into the same traps as many modern games in which everything just feels like too much visual information, it gets kinda tiring to look around for items after a while at least for me and I don't think the enemy animations or combat feedback feel as brutal in the remake somehow.
"There were no hotkeys to reload or swap ammo types" This is false, SS1 dos original had it with Alt Backspace and Ctrl Backspace. Also, they worked instantaneously.
@@MGMan37 Was that indicated anywhere? I looked in the original manual and couldn't find it. Implementing that (without any delay in reloading) seems a serious error in judgment in any case, so I'm glad that it's so opaque that most players have evidently never known about it.
@@rosodudersd260 you should watch how I play system shock 1 hehe, despite playing the enhanced edition, everything I do except mouse look (which I plan to remove in a future attempt) can be done in the OG :)
I want to like Mayos content but he hardly seems to enjoy much of anything and isnt consistent on his complaints between games. I find myself rolling my eyes finding out he doesn't like yet another widely accepted game and for reasons he doesn't seem to mind in other games. Do your thing, mayo. I suppose our opinions are just a bit too different. maybe as I get older im just allowing myself to enjoy things a little bit more
Mayo, whats the difference between RE4 inventory system compared to this one? You like the original RE4 system with no auto sort. Is it the quantity of resources? Also, i like the pause menu being live. Keeps with the games roots and is similar to Dead Space
I would say in my humble useless opinion that it's the amount of stuff that is the difference. In re4.. you don't have to manage your items every couple of enemy encounters. Also re4r spoiled a lot of us with the auto sort.
2 is the one I want remade. 1 was a bit simple compared to 2 and definitely clunky, even for the time. And I think that clunkiness manages to shine through, even in this remake
@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 If only the modders could change the game and its every elements and turn it like it's a fan-made remake. Then an actual remake(made by the devs) would not be necessary.
@@kyradflinko62 Can't tell if you're being facetious or not, but if you aren't, the SS2 modding scene has actually kind of done this, from tons of mods fixing bugs and glitches like Olfred's fixed objects and SHTUP to Shock Community Patch with its massive gameplay overhauls and quality of life changes. And visual and auditory upgrades like The Four Hundred (named because it upscales texture quality by 400%), Tacticool, Vurt's Organics/Flora Overhaul, and SCHMUP. And the controversial Rebirth that updates character models to HD which imo takes too many liberties and strays too far from the original art style, but has its fans. There's so much more. Remaking SS2 is as redundant as ever with the existence of its modding scene. But I guess it's kind of like the many calls to remake/remaster Fallout New Vegas, some people really can't be bothered to figure out how to mod a game for a few minutes and just want to play it updated ASAP. Or own a console, which really that's their own fault (just kidding... half-kidding). If you were being facetious, thanks for bringing it up.
@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 I've never played System Shock 2 tbh n just waiting for a remaster wow. Can you list me the very good mods to play with but canon friendly?
Honestly, the original SS1 was practically like the remake with the maze-like levels and sheer longevity of objectives and lack of "hand-holding". I honestly think if Nightdive remade the second one, it would be a much different story for you, because it's not nearly as maze-like, it's easy to check for what your objectives are, the "puzzles" are basically just hacking minigames like those in bioshock, and there were just way way way more quality of life improvements made. It kind of feels almost like a different game compared to the first one, but I genuinely think it's a much better experience for most newcomers...not that the first is bad or anything
Yeah. That doesn't make them interesting. A guard that just stands still from across the room out in the open, and can hit scan snipe you when he can't even see you... that's not interesting.
"Enemies snipe you from across the room, sneak up on you, and swarm you." Um.... Yeah, that's extremely basic and simple AI. That's the same AI complexity as classic Doom (which is endless fun, don't get me wrong, but the enemy AI in classic Doom is NOT impressive in the least).
@@DeadPixel1105eah classic doom ai isn't impressive either. But AI should generally compliment your combat options. Very simple AI works great when your options are basic. Look at dead space. Or yes classic fps games like doom or Duke 3d. Or Mario. Or lots of games with simple AI implemented in smart ways. Like, zombie AI is super basic. But it works if your character is slow, low health, and limited to just a pistol and 8 bullets. It's all relative.
@@underthemayo i honestly dont think the ai of system shocks enemies is less advanced than doom or mario. the placement is definitely less advanced but the behavior is basically the same. i think this comes down to the fact that system shocks enemies tend to wander around though if theyre the type that arent used mostly in scripted sequences, thus they cant really exhibit more intelligent placement like dooms enemies. this also is just a result of it being a nonlinear game though.
Funny thing is texture of the wall and floor is different in every level or section of the map. The real problem is THE DARKNESS. System shock wasn't dark game in the beginning. Since every hallway is freaking dark every hallway feels same. It wasn't like this even in 2017 unity remake version. I don't know what make dev choose this game having horror game level darkness which absolutely isn't. p.s. There is another door in research floor which isn't broken and will be open. I have no idea why dev made this change since both door works in original version.
Great game. Sure, the gripes are valid. All games have their flaws, like the ones mentioned here. The developers could have added a few features to address some of them without violating their vision of recreating the 1994 experience. It is what it is.
I just thought of this but what if the save and checkpoint system was balanced for a all 3 difficulty? In the enhanced edition I was also curious for why we'd use respawn when we have save states. Time. You have 6 hours, you don't have the time to die.
@@Eric_Nomad_Hixtone Which is probably why they implemented the 123 system...though lets be honest, the control Scheme is the Dark Souls of control Schemes :P
Wait, I'm confused. Whenever I died, I came back with critical health with the possibility that enemies have already started repopulating the level. It was still pretty forgiving, but the possibility of healing to get back to where I died just to get ambushed and lose more resources was a constant. Was there some rebalance patching?
The game is definitely not intended for a modern zoomer audience, and I can see how some players could feel deceived when they see the beautiful visual appeal of the game, but underneath that coat of paint it plays like a clunky 1994 dos game. This was an intentional design choice.
I agree with many of your points. Cyberspace shooting blows. The Recycler capacity is brutal and needless. The repetitive tiled textures are very samey(faithful adaptation but something to make spaces more distinct would really help), an objectives tab like in Prey would be very welcome. And enemy A.I. is basic. All this stuff could be improved and would not harm the original design of the game. But... ...the game was developed by a small team. They had to cancel their initial attempt as it suffered from feature creep probably from the same desire for modernization of all these various elements you've brought up, putting it well beyond the scope of their modest budget. So they went the route of a faithful remake with all the pros and cons that entails. And I love it. Would I rather have more modernized systems? Of course! But as I never played the original, I like that I can have a similar experience to the OG without having to actually play the OG, which while I do own...I'd rather not. It's so janky. System Shock 2 on the other hand I did play on an underpowered PC back in 2000. I didn't get very far because the performance was so poor but it lived on in my mind as one I'll eventually get back to. But what I did play, I absolutely loved. The whole aesthetic was better. No more repetitive abstract tiled textures, the Von Braun looked like a spaceship not some technicolor funhouse and had a more sane level design. Combat and Inventory management was also improved. I really hope Nightdive can remake that one. As far as Tencent and System Shock 3 goes? I hope they do the smart thing and hire Arkane to do it. They would knock that shit out of the park since they already shipped the blueprint in 2017 with Prey, a tragically overlooked masterpiece.
It's been nice to see a good number of fans be accepting of this video. Not too many wackos. It's totally fine to acknowledge these flaws and still have a great time. Never said anyone was wrong for loving it.
I'm a fan of the original, and I absolutely loved this remake. System Shock has always been this weird niche game for a very specific type of gamer. One of my main concerns when the remake released was that people would be drawn in by the visuals and presentation, not realizing that in the end it is still a 90s game with few gameplay changes. Thankfully, it does seem like a lot of modern players are engaging with the game on its terms, and SS1 now has a ton of new fans. Most of the critiques were pretty understandable, and the ones I disagreed with are pretty much up to personal preference. I personally liked the level design and lack of direction, however I get that it isn't for everyone. However I'm honestly happy they stuck with a far more faithful remake then trying to "update it for modern audiences". The Save System is a weird one and is kind of a problem with the remake. In the original, you can only respawn at a restoration bay if you are on the same floor as that restoration bay, and if you aren't you just gameover. I honestly like this part of the original a lot better because respawning from a different level's restoration bay just means you waste your time when you die. Also, if you want to give Immersive Sims another shot, play the original Deus Ex. Best game in the genre hands down.
Also yeah, I agree with you especially in regards to how every floor looks the same!!! System Shock 2 doesn't have this problem at all! And just like you, I had zero issue with Resident Evil's map layout... I dare someone to call that "hand holding" too. Nah man, System Shock's map design is a labyrinthe. Some people are okay with this, but those people also probably enjoy corn mazes (I don't). It's only a plus if you like that kind of stuff. I don't think System Shock is much of an immersive sim... when I think immersive sim, I'm thinking Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous. There is nothing sim-like about System Shock lol
immersive sim is a pretty big genre; prey is actually more inspired by system shock 2 and bioshock, NOT system shock 1. SS1 is an immersive sim, but many gameplay elements were introduced in SS2 and BS1 that defined a new subgenre of immersive sims. hope that explains the lack of similarities between this and prey overall great review! i still love this clunky hunk of junk but maybe that’s just nostalgia, your criticism is very valid
hacker space always sucked, it was a confusing mess especially back in the old games. the puzzles… that’s wrong… ss1 had many unique and different puzzles, i don’t know why they neutered that down to only 2. time constraints? oh well…
Idk about immersive sim being a pretty big genre. It's relatively small if you ask me. - deus ex - thief - system shock - bioshock - dishonored - prey - gloomwood - cruelty squad A few other indie ones as well but that's about it from what I remember
@@bruhder5854 yeah it’s very small, but i guess i mean wide? all those games have similarities while still being relatively distinct, like prey bioshock and ss2 have massive similarities to the point they stand on their own within the genre.
When BioShock came out it was the first game heralded by it's creators as the "spiritual successor" to system shock. And fair enough. The lead designer on Bioshock was the Lead Designer on System Shock 2. But the Vita Chambers had no consequences. you didn't even have to turn them on. I will agree that I found the fact that you could respawn from death on a different level to be a bit weird. But if you really were paying attention to the logs on the Medical deck especially and following the subtext. The PC is deactivating the cyborg conversion of the med chambers, which normally just heal you. Shodan wants cybernetic minions, so the borgs around the levels scoop up your incapacitated body, and take you to the conversion chamber to borgify you. But if you turned it off before hand, bam, you're healed again. It makes sense to me. I just wish they hadn't removed the tension of knowing if you died on a new level before you found it, you were dead dead. not Incap'd and revived in a med bay by some hapless borg who thought he was doing a good job for mommy Shodan. And the fact that you have to run around to get back where you were is certainly a consequence of "dying". And if you are actually playing on the hardest difficulty, using those chambers and not save scumming, the game becomes VERY challenging because of the hard time limit to finish. The inclusion of both methods of progress, a save system and a revive system, is another hallmark of the Immersive Sim imho. Give the player choices, not restrictions. This type of game is built for emergent gameplay, the concept is literally... if you think the saves make it too easy with no consequence... than don't use the save system. The developer puts that responsibility on you. Because that's the ImmSim way. I understand this is less a review than a "why It didn't click for me" video. But I've always found the story of the games development to be a relevant piece of the puzzle that you didn't really dive into. Why is this game the way it is?
I never played the original but I like games and their history. Personally, what I was hoping from this remake was a game that would give me a similar experience to the original but with better controls/navigation and where I could just install it and play it. Most of those games from the 90s need mods and lots of getting used to the controls to play them and I'm sure teenage me wouldn't have had a problem, but adult me has grown used to better controls and it's really hard to switch back and forth. I recently also played Wolfenstein 3D for the first time and it's awkward for me to play it, I might not finish it, but I appreciate playing it and just getting an idea of "yes, this is how things started" and it lets me appreciate what comes after even more.
There was actually an official Source Port of the original called System Shock Enhanced that came out some years back, if you were still curious about the OG you could get that too.
The label "immersive sims" is thrown around a lot these days, but I don't think it fits the very first System Shock well at all. System Shock is as old as me. It comes from a time when having a narrative or a basic physics system in a FPS game was a huge deal. System Shock was really famous for being an actual 3D game. It had a lot of "firsts" in video games history, but its immersive sim qualities feel way more like a happy accident or ways to deal with technology at the time than intentional design. A lot of fans of the first game gonna hate me for saying that, but first System Shock has more in common with first Doom than any other immersive sim. The remake being faithful is in a way a double edged sword. It looks great, but plays a lot like the original. It is a love letter for the fans by the fans. But overall I'm happy that Nightdive stuck to their guns, and did not tried to make it into another homogenized mess like Redfall.
"its immersive sim qualities feel way more like a happy accident or ways to deal with technology at the time than intentional design" It was intentional design. "the first System Shock has more in common with first Doom than any other immersive sim" I... really don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. The original Doom and the original System Shock are ***VERY*** different. And while, sure, SS2 is also quite different from SS1, there's still more similarity there than between SS1 and Doom. But I think a better comparison to SS1 is... Thief. Not because System Shock plays like a Thief game - it obviously doesn't. But because Thief and System Shock are both unique as """immersive sims""" (I hate that term) in that they're much more focused on a specific type of play, while still giving you freedom of approach. System Shock 1 says "you're a cybernetically enhanced hacker that's good at shooting shit. How you go about being this thing is up to you," much in the same way Thief says, "You're an agile thief that uses his tools to avoid getting himself into combat, because he's not a good combatant and is squishy. Here's your choice of tools. Don't get killed." This is in contrast to System Shock 2 or Deus Ex or Prey's style of 'immersive sim' where it's more opened up like an RPG. The *entirety* of freedom of approach is given to you. You can choose to *not* be the sneaky boy. You can choose *not* to take the alien powers, etc. It's just a different level of how defined the character they're giving you control over is. That can come off as meaning Thief or SS1 aren't as 'free', but that more defined role has more freedom given to the player in terms of gameplay choices compared to a player-chosen role in other 'immersive sims'. One player's way of playing SS1 could be wildly different than another's, except not because one chose to be a hacker and one chose to shoot everything with heavy weapons a la SS2, but because one, for instance, decided to dope himself up and slice everything to pieces like a methed up cyber samurai, while another plays cautiously, uses grenades, peeks around corners, and uses the cybernetic that allows him to see behind himself at all times.
This game has been an interesting thing its a really good remake, but as a modern game somethings are annoying. but the cool thing is that its a way to view how games were back then. I never played the og system shock and wanted to and now I can experience a pretty much faithful remake and get a glimpse in to the past. I think that's why I truly enjoy this remake.
@@keelyourshelf I don't have it because they took a 2 hour idea and stretched it in 15 with awful gameplay of childish minigames, a laughable alien, and a protagonist that breaks all of alien lore by breaking herself out of her cocoon. Crap game.
I understand why you didn't like it, but as a non fan of the first game, but a fan of the second one, this game gave me what i always wanted. System Shock 1 with a normal interface and controls. I could never get into the old one because of it, and the game not only gave us this but improved everything and gave us new gameplay additions :) The comparison to Pray is interesting because I'm getting all the vibes and feelings from playing that game. It's not the same game of course but it sure has immersed me into the game and I'm really enjoying it. Don't even have a problem with the map, yeah it's huge but i intuitively just started exploring parts of the map that were empty, listening and reading to everything, writing down codes, and while i get confused and lost without the map, once i look at it i know where to go and start remembering where everything is. It's kinda fun that the map was made to confuse not only players but it has the same purpose in the game lore with the company experimenting on the station residents. I agree to a degree with the cyber sections, they are the worst part, but not horrible. Regarding the save game feature, well firstly it's not resident evil and not designed with limited saves in mind, secondly you can just choose to not use save games or limit yourself to a certain number of save games. I know that you had to pay for regeneration in SS2, but if i remember correctly for the original, you have less health when you regenerate the more you go further in the game. Also, you could quick save and load in Prey all the time, I don't get why you have a problem with it here. Not calling you out, just curious :) All in all, I'm having a blast with the game so far, too bad you weren't, but thanks for the honest and detailed review of why it turned you off, was still fun to watch ^^
I share Mayos opinion, mainly bc for me, as i'm getting older and being more intentional with my time, I tolerate less time sinks. Yes, 9 sprawling maze-like levels is awesome, for the 19yo me. 12 hours is all i could muster. The puzzles don't give you all the information you need to solve them, re-spawning becomes tedious after fighting enemies that don't telegraph and the cyberspace sections are dull, esp if it's unclear what they unlock once completed. Yes, don't hand hold me, I've played Souls and Tarkov, but give me a compass, point in a direction, then let me go.
So the Bioshock regen system? Die 100 timea taking down a Big Daddy, and he keeps all the damage between encounters? That was one of the things that turned me off to that series, it felt really cheep.
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan So when you died, you immediately loaded your last save? Fair enough, it's just a shame that the game shipped with such a shit and broken mechanic.. Thankfully, they patched in the ability to turn off vita chambers in Bioshock and Bioshock 2.
The lock door in research is literally just their for decoration; If you go around the middle section their should be another door that just requires either a keycard or security clearance check: But regardless I kinda both get your complaints but also: I feel like you're really not the type of cloth cut for this sort of game...which is fine.
Yeah I got the same feeling, the level design is bad by comparison. When u had played prey, modern Deus ex, dishonored, bioshock and many other in the genre. This feels a lot more like a remastered than a remake, even tho I never played the original
I always thought it was System Shock 2 that Prey is similar to, not System Shock 1. System Shock 1, compared to other games for its time was an Immersive sim. Especially its clunky controls and extra content that the remake does not have. A lot of System Shock 1 imo was fun for its clunkyness because you figure out ways to make the controls work for you and your playstyle, similar to how people play System Shock 2 but emphasised with different play styles/Classes.
12:00 Btw.. there is an item that you can use to completely skip the puzzle ;) I had 3 of them and that "Gray" area puzzle room was just 5 seconds long :) Like you said at 12:05 ^_^
that argument about the resident evil map being easy to navigate I gotta say IMO is not true, as a guy who only played it recently on steam its so confusing and each floor has some puzzle and no objective tracker so I have no idea if the puzzle I'm trying to solve is for getting an item or its something that progresses me through the game, like I face the same confusion you seem to have when dealing with system shock maps which is now better cause steam added a notes feature so I can simply note down what I was doing and have it there everytime I open resident evil but unlike re2 remake which does have an objective indicator so I know what I should be doing, like the fake shield in the dining room is for some puzzle that happens after rebecca or jill play the piano I picked it up thinking the puzzle would be on the same floor, so that basically shatters any trust I have in picking stuff up since I sacrifice so much time or inventory space everytime this happens why are key items so far from their puzzle location it makes navigation annoying.
The point I made about RE1's map is about distinct looking rooms, and the contained structure of it. It's not a sprawling labyrinth that reaches up 9 floors. It's two floors, with 20 or 30 spaces and that's it. That was my only point. No where in the video did I say it couldn't be improved. It was a general example for those specific points. The RE2R map adding a stated objective is an addition I agree with, and the map highlighting rooms that you haven't fully explored is also excellent. You're focusing too much on exactly which resident evil I'm referencing. As for your complaint about picking up the fake shield but not being able to use it in that exact room, having to put it away and wait to use it later... I don't know, that's just a weird thing to be bothered by. That's the entire survival horror genre. The map is the puzzle. You find things in one room and they're used in another. Big deal. It happens in RE2R too.
I hate haven't no clue of what im supposed to do! I fucking hate that feeling! Im not saying that this game should have mission markers but a journal will be nice
Totally respectable. And I 100% agree about the immersive sim aspect. What makes immersive sim to me is more along deus ex lines. Where you could potentially go through the whole game, never fire a shot, never kill anything, or he'll never even hack anything. Options. It's all about options. From everything I've seen about this game, you don't really have options.
This game is basically a perfect remake, go play the original, dont like it? You won't like this one either.A And i this is how i think remakes should be.
I just finished the game. I agree that some elements could have been better but overall I enjoyed it. My two biggest gripes 1. The map and all the backtracking became tedious. 2. The objectives - OMG I had to read several articles and visit countless forums to figure out where to go or what to do next. Most of the audio logs gave little clue as to how you're supposed to tackle things or in what order. I'm fine with open exploring but as you implied - a reminder or a beacon or SOMETHING would be a godsend for this game.
Same here. And I share your sentiment. I definitely wouldn't have finished this without help from the internet 😃. I liked the first few levels, but eventually I was just lost and tired, so I dug up some guides to get through the rest.
Of course you didn't like it to no one's surprise (even if it's completely faithful to the original) Because It's not doom eternal😂 Eventhough it has the weakpoint system in form of appropriate ammo & Did I mention the game caters mostly to hardcore gamers, Remember when Under the Mayo used to be one (when it came to doom)
Yeah, it's ok. Everything you critize (except for dumb AI) is to add to the feeling of beign alone and lost and not knowing what to do, basically it's all made to make you suffer, and fans of SS love that :) I played in max difficulty except for time limit and I loved it
I check into some of the original and it seems to have better environmental variety and it actually has a way to take notes of what your objectives are. I'm really surprised they didn't carry that over.
You're a fool, Mayo. The game is a faithful update of the 1994 original, hence many of its oldskool quirks. Also, the cyberspace FOV slider works just fine as long as you hit T to apply the setting. And you get a Cyberspace "spring" upgrade on level 3 or something.
You can use the mimic ability to roll yourself through an opening in the window to get into a room?? I never freaking realized, holy shit. Prey is amazing. Still find it funny how it took me three attempts and a conscious effort to really dive into the game until it clicked and i started to adore it
I've backed this game in 2017. Most of your critics are valid. I was all in for the upgrade of the gameplay, even for the global design of the station for the remake but unfortunately the devs decided to listen to those who didn't want that. I had to suffer the same problem with Elite Dangerous which is plagued with game design problem due to old fart who doesn't want to improve the gameplay. I don't even like that much the de graphical choice from the dev to have this bitmap look. Buty still, i'm enjoying the game and glad I supported it. System Shock 2 really improved the way your objectives are listed, and was overall a much better game (wich still hold on today thanks to the modding community). I hope there will be a remake of this one too but with more improvements. PS : OMG how right you are about the recycler...
It's really a good feeling in my opinion going back to older times with no hand holding and you spending mins or hours figuring out stuff. Fresh air oddly. Plus I really like the graphics
I tried to play through System Shock a few years ago (never having played the originals), and I dropped off after a few hours due to a lot of what you mentioned. I've been gaming since 1990, so I'm certainly used to the trappings of old design, but I think this one requires some nostalgia and inside knowledge to get through. Or at least it helps a lot. Sounds like the remake here just isn't for me. Oh well, that's OK. It looks like they committed to their vision.
I dropped it after 30 minutes. Clearly, it requires a LOT of patience and commitment. I don't know why I should invest so much into a game that never gave me a reason to care about it in the first place.
They should have brought the respawning system from System Shock 2 to the Remake, in System Shock 2 it's the same but if you respawn you lose few Nanites (the games currency).
I agree with most of your points Mayo. I think Nightdive stuck a bit too much with the design of the old System Shock when doing the remake, instead of taking just the good parts and improving them, then replacing everything else with something more fun. The original System Shock had that repetitive design partly because of the hardware limitations, which is not a concern these days. This kind of shows that Nightdive have a lot of experience with porting old games to new hardware, but not so much in designing new gameplay on their own.
As some one who absolutely adores the original game i can say the main thing thats keeping me away (i played the Beta demo) are the animations, like, i get it, i just think they could've been a little snappier, especially the Melee combat, it felt floaty and hard to know when you'd hit things
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While every review is likely going to be from someone that knows the original, I thought it would be fun/entertaining/interesting/informative to give the perspective from someone alien to the series,, for whom it just didn't resonate. Hope you enjoy the discussion.
As someone who was looking forward to this game as a remake of an old classic (like doom) I was expecting a lot of it, which in hindsight was probably a mistake.
The combat doesn't feel impactful and that's in part because of the enemies and in part because of the weapons, and the environments seem noisy because of the textures but flat when it comes to navigation making the layout more confusing because of it. Though to me the simplicity of the puzzles coupled with that barebones 3d shooting minigame is probably the worst offender. How can the devs not come up with more engaging puzzles after so many years have gone by since the original? How did so little insight get put to work on that 3d shooting minigame for them to consider that ready for sale?
I hope the people that enjoyed the classic can enjoy the new one, I really do, but I can't help but feel they missed the mark in many key features during development.
You know that thing when people latch onto a thing from back in the old days and they they are like adamant that this is what old school is.. like you hear a lot of losers running around crying about reloading.. old School shooters don't have reloading.. well system shock was an old school shooter and it did have reloading, and rollerblades and drugs.. it also had prone and analog leaning.. the immersive Sim component for just the original system shock was not necessarily combining ingredients to solve puzzles creatively to make your way through 3D environments.. it was to allow you a variety of options in combat.. that you could mix and match accordingly.. it's more of a tactical shooter nowadays but honestly what is the tactical shooter if not an immersive Sim had it being done right of course.. apply that gameplay to other things and apply that philosophy to other things and eventually you start evolving into Deus ex, or stalker, or prey... in various different offshoots maximizing on various different aspects of that.. but it's the philosophy, and it's in the original pitch document..
I hate to say this but I feel like night dive fell more in love with the rudimentary but still impressive, especially for the time, format of how they tried to carry this out with the technology that they had.. which again was impressive LOL fully 3D in 1994.. well excuse me fully 3D environment, Bethesda 3D..
The idea was you're in a place.. these things are happening.. you have a lot of tools.. go nuts.. make sure you do lots of drugs, and learn from your experiences.. try new things.. try more drugs.. try them with rollerblades.. try the rear-view mirror because designed a game that has more controls in common with Arma in 1994.. but we also just did ultima underworld... and as far as we're concerned this is kind of how you're supposed to like this is how all the kids are are controlling 3D movement.
And why wouldn't you.. why would you want to look all the way around while sacrificing to Fidelity within the screen? And.. I've always wanted that marriage, upon which it had a great divorce.. the bastard children of which are VR, and a direction that PC shooters were going before consoles took over his primary development.. something called free aim... Which have done right is absolutely fantastic.. the problem is everybody that experiments with it in a major release is also experimenting with everything else under the sun and you have a game like trespasser.. could have been good but they didn't quite get it there or even close really.
System shock could have should have would have if it weren't for a couple of minor and major as a result of things.. first being that the publisher nearly refused to allow any sort of instruction.. they had to fight tooth and nail just to get a title card that showed off what all the displays did as.. as much as you can control with your keyboard you can control with the mouse or vice versa and sometimes not.. the days before custom keybinds.. and just standard keybind ideas..
So the idea is free aim basically.. you turn with either buttons on a HUD, or with the keyboard keys as was tradition back then LOL.. but within that window you had freedom.. you could grab whatever you wanted you can throw where you wanted with the power of mouse! And when you look at the list of controls.. and options like.. I like to give an example of something you're never going to be able to do in the night dive game.. or any game probably ever again..
rollerblade down a hallway while shooting a chain gun then diving into prone behind a filing cabinet then leaning out and throwing a grenade from behind said filing cabinet.. while moving the filing cabinet to adjust your better position and using the environment some sort of interaction to your advantage when the opportunity arises.. all while tripping on psychedelics... How do you achieve this.. they can choose the controls you want in mods or
More ironically the night dive remaster.. upon which laid before you are.. how do you want to do the things you want to do.. and yes there are eight keys for diving into prone.. you don't have to use them.. but you might want to use some of them.. and if this was anything that they could communicate coherently, some of which was communicated coherently and most of which didn't need to be because of the presentation ended up itself and the capabilities.. at the time.. they just kind of was unlike anything ever.. and you really wouldn't start seeing that again until tactical shooter started becoming more common.. and then you'd never see any of that again because we were going to basically fold into a 20-year Time Warp of dual analog controller stagnation.. now the game just plays for you.
What I think night dive was more in love with, was the setting.. and that old school design.. the maze, the hands off approach.. and trying to simplify as best as they could or basically remove all of the extraneous options that you could mix and match to something that was actually reasonably fluid.. if you modded it which was very common back then amongst the tiny amount of people that played this LOL.. or eventually with the remaster which took all those ideas that needed to be done that would never have been done under the circumstances of its release and time and just the experimental nature of it.
And it kind of makes sense that night dive would take that perspective.. they spend their time remastering and reupholstering old titles for modern systems.. ironically they also tried to you know make them palatable with like things like expanded options that hadn't been allowed for or visual settings that make coherent sense for modern systems etc.. you know basically kind of all the things that they kind of failed at with this particular release and had been failing ever since they started because they never really got there apparently..
Like we went from trying to rebind, causing aliases to delete themselves or something.. to now you just have to rebind a single key for the game to remember that you might have remapped something every time you open the game up..
you know make sure you remember to reload your ahk specific for this particular game because the thumb buttons on a mouse, maybe don't exist in Canada? Cuz they sure don't exist in this game's input library apparently and God forbid you wanted to rebind any of those inventory items those number keys do not exist in the menu.. and if you really want to break unreal LOL try to add custom key aliases LOL.. thanks Tim Sweeney! Your guidance from your front yard tree is always welcome.. I agree the screen should have more vaseline on it.. make it so make it a best practice make the GDC conference.
and what kills me of course is the modern development trend and that shift that they had over the development where they just basically sort of gaslighting everybody after promising an open development. With the community.. and it wasn't like they tried to explain that they had to do something else or it wasn't working.. they just stop talking and they don't have a form anymore they moved everything to a private discord so if you're looking at everything everything looks like a scam.. especially the broken products they keep releasing on distribution sites and ignoring.
Mod support would be nice mod support could fix a lot of things.. since the day one that they released something from the unreal switch.. they hadn't figured out how to make a menu of that functioned.. or keys that could be mapped properly.. going up until the release they still hadn't figured out how to make it you know all the way there.. that's maybe something at the very least since it's clear that we may have to rebind our keys, every time we open this game forever lol.
I don't know I just don't have a lot of faith in modern developers.. even ones that are so a bashedly in love with the old school.. a lot of that old school always seems to filter out things like John carmack and his philosophies on coding and community.. where we got mods in the first place in a official like actual key component of the industry.. before people forgot what that even was and now don't even think about it as a thing other than those clickbait generating headlines from industry news outlets about the custom models in resident evil that you can play as.. which is really unfair that community has some really cool stuff that's actually cool.. that being said that community is unfair to that community LOL it's not untrue.. the amount of effort that goes into that is.. well live your life I guess.. it clearly is the most important part to get those nipples perfect cuz they were just wrong..
Fact that it's unreal is part of that the very hostile system towards that kind of user friendliness which is ironic again because it's engine was born out of competitions and whatnot.. and it's a tool set that so many people are familiar with.. but yeah you don't want to you don't want to have people messing around in there.. they might not buy your microtransactions right?
the only reason that we see some of these older Staples that are really embracing that kind of support is because they came from that era, and as much contempt that I have for Bethesda.. for so many different reasons.. the fact that they've always made that a key component, it's it's really something and it's important and it's not just because they can't bug test their game.. valve seems to be the same way still.. and they're company that can't even release games and have no idea what's going on usually it seems..
There's a large modding community that CD project fostered in that they were hiring them as that's you know.. Europeans are cool like that they do the mod thing well Eastern Europeans anyways. And that has been something that they fought for internally, often just releasing things anyways LOL.. it's gotten to a point where it's a company culture thing and they realize that that's an important thing to the community and it helps themselves. Especially giving how many systems they created for cyberpunk that never saw the main release on a kind of how quickly it had to be thrown together from what they had.. modders didn't create the flying cars.. the flying cars were created by the studio in great detail and they just had no idea how to fit them in the game or the time to do that.. sure is a good thing that there's modders.
That being said.. in the game that you have.. with the exception of the one-handed weapons and the sword, the guns are held really reasonably by comparison to most.. gives you an impression that you actually holding them, even if it suffers from that I only have these wrists for some reason on occasions.. and I love that they didn't bother trying to fix it when you look down.. so you really do retract your arms apparently when you're holding the phaser LOL.. like those those arms just shrinking to nubs..
But for the most part like with the pistol and the assault rifles in the shotgun.. it's it's reasonable.. you can lean corners you can do basic environmental things.. that's unfortunately that's a lot more than most nowadays. It's just really too bad that the philosophy of immersion wasn't the thing that they were going for it was the philosophy of sci-fi dungeon crawler..
And those two together could be peanut butter honey and and cigarettes or something.. you know just like a perfect mix.. and usually immersive elements mixed with anything are are end up being a perfect mix.. look at dark Messiah... But the Sci-Fi old school dungeon crawler is a bit more of a niche thing, and it loses a bit of its luster when you don't really have that focus on I'm toting this severed head around, yeah I might need to use it at a retinal scanner but I have a couple others and they don't do anything.. I'm just I'm just having fun I'm just playing soccer here with 1994 physics...
@@jakedill1304 My man there's no way you typed 2 whole chapters off a book's length worth of comments lmao
This remake was rebooted specifically because the backers were growing very dissatisfied how the game started looking more and more modern and veering off of the path of staying true to the original. I can hardly fault the devs for keeping it simple. The backers made this possible in the first place so this is more of a praise than critique in my eyes.
Who is to blame besides the devs? They did the game. You think a baker should ask his customers how to bake bread? How about a survey? You think customers know better than the baker how to bake bread? This explanation is absurd. The devs did the game and it's their responsibility.
@@damazywlodarczyk
If someone pays you to make a pineapple pizza, it makes sense to make a pineapple pizza, even if that's a more specific taste.
@@NG-fi1nn How do you propose you manage that in game development? Was there a survey throughout the crowdfunding backers? A democratic survey where you vote on dozens of design decisions? There was not. The audience "taste" wasn't measurable or even defined. People will eat pizza with whatever is there, if the pizza is really good.
@@damazywlodarczyk We'll see how well the game does. A lot of hype is coming from those fans, not from a general player base that would sustain the game well past launch.
@@damazywlodarczyk blamed for what exactly? Staying true to the original vision that was made possible solely by the backers on kickstarter? Steering the ship back on course when the aforementioned group voiced their worries as the game started to look nothing like what was promised and what they supported with their money? Rebooting mid-development taking an enormous risk just to stay true to their word and the fanbase? They can only be commended for that. Even if I, as a non-backer do not get to enjoy the game (along with many other people who agree with the opinions stated in the video - because believe me, this game is not for me either).
System Shock was more of a proto-immersive sim. It was an old school PC dungeon crawler at heart, of the Ultima ilk. Immersive sim design philosophy grew out of the Looking Glass scene from System Shock onward. I would highly suggest you play SS2, Thief, and Deus Ex.
Gotta love how many commenters literally didn't even watch the video before angrily commenting. That Ultrakill vid really buck broke a lot of people I think.
Anyway, kinda of agree even though I liked it enough to finish it. It's faithful to the original to its own detriment in a lot of ways, and I say this having played SS:EE years ago. The issue is mainly that they modernized half of the game but left the other half near-identical to the OG. I know that was a kickstarter goal, but honestly it would have been better to stay even more true to the original (jank controls and all) or do a more "full" remaster.
Not a bad game by any stretch, but certainly a confused one.
"it's not doom eternal"
_round of applause_
"it's not RE1"
Based king 👑
guy tries to dodge the argument that this isn't a shooter, by telling the audience that "there are enemies everywhere". But doesn't even show a single clip with more than 3 enemies on screen.
The entire game and the whole immersive sim genre as a whole is about navigating through a maze. There are no more than a couple or so dozen enemies on each level. Even the most modern immersive sims have intentionally "weak" combat.
This is a 30 year old game with slightly more intuitive controls and visuals, it's supposed to feel like you are trapped in hell with a pea shooter that hits like a wet noodle. You are supposed to be lost. Sure this genre is not for everybody, but then why even try it? Especially the most "annoying" one in the entire genre too. Complaining that the game isn't as linear and fun and intuitive as doom enternal is just a retarded way to critique a game that is literally older than his dumb ass.
Also is it just me or is it very obvious it's gonna be a bad review when he's constantly referring to games he'd rather be playing than focusing on the one he is reviewing
@@Revan13372because he is comparing and illustrating the features of what makes one game successful and the other not.
5:00 About the respawning. Try playing the game on combat difficulty 3, by the time you're back some new enemies will have spawned in the area. System Shock 2 changed the system so respawning costs Credits. And if you feel like that's still too gentle you can challenge yourself by just using the load function like you would in other games.
Despite how this game didn’t work for you, I still implore
you to try System Shock 2. It’s the game that made Im sims click for me and you can see traces of modern games all over its design
I concur. System Shock 2 is a different game in almost all respects imo. Also Pray is more similar to SS2 than to SS1
@@ratfuk9340 System shock 2 with vanilla/lore friendly mods and bug fixes is a top tier Im Sim
100%
You...IMPLORE him?!! You always were one for fancy words.
@@OTBASH is... is that a red dead redemption reference? didn't expect to find that here.
What's very interesting here is that I get a lot of Mayo's complaints, but some of them are actually changes from the original game. I think Gman's review really puts it well because he points out that the game is really for fans and players of the original game. It won't really endear itself to modern players because it ignores a lot of basic QOL options that would just make it nicer.
As someone who wasn't even born when the original came out I'm loving every second of this game the lack of direction is actually a positive for me🤣
@VanaheimRanger Computer & Video Games suprisingly only like once i believe
it couldve had a modern or classic option at the start of the game, one with and without handholding
@@whodatninja439 I disagree. This is like offering an alternative happy ending to a story that’s about loss. Sometimes we just have to be comfortable with certain media not being very accessible to us by it’s very nature and move on.
Speaking as a fan of the original game, I don't feel like it's for me at all. The garish, pixelated graphical style is like a parody of the original, the scrap/vending machine mechanic is a tedious distraction, the level lighting is much darker than the original, the environments now look busy and over-detailed, the playable intro is awful compared to the slick original intro cutscene, the ambient "music" is boring compared to the original music, and the constant unskippable pickup/use animations are a pain in the ass.
What this does feel like is a game that was made specifically to draw in gamers who like Bioshock, Dead Space, and boomer shooters. Every aspect of the original game has been twisted toward this goal.
I understand your frustrations with the game, but I personally like the bulk of the aspects that you see as problems. For instance, for me it's not about 'hand-holding,' so much as it is actual immersion. Just like in real life, if you don't pay attention to what someone is telling you at the time, you may easily misunderstand or forget important objective. I personally appreciate that, though I can see why people wouldn't enjoy that in a game. The one part that I do have to counter is your understanding of the Restoration Stations/Cyborg Conversion Chambers, which I feel are critical to the storyline. Until you locate and find one, you're vulnerable and can be killed. It's a primary objective to enable easier exploration. I do understand the desire for a bit of a penalty to dying, and that is something they did add to System Shock 2 (respawning costs a small amount of 'money'), but the simple fear of setback or potential permanent death always kept me on my toes. I feel the respawn system adds to the story and the game overall.
Overall, solid review even if I personally disagree with most of your opinions on the game.
I am so glad whenever I see people reasonably discussing these topics. It feels like a breathe of fresh air whenever I see these
Never played System Shock but both of your description of restoration stations sounds plain bad game design. Like, you have risk of death when starting the game... And then never again? It just sounds like it would suck all tension away
@@gJonii No, there are places where you can die regardless of the restoration station, like Grove Beta or fighting against bosses. I think you can also die permanently if you're out of range of a restoration station, but I need to recheck that.
You're also looking at the restoration station wrong because it's actually a reward for paying attention to the plot of the game, and is something you could easily skip by if you don't have the required information to activate it. Or worse, if you activate it incorrectly, you are turned into a cyborg instead and it's another game over. If you actually immerse yourself into the world, it adds greatly to the story of the game, too, as you set back SHODAN's control and gain a respawn point with every station you take control of.
@@gJonii Actually no. In the original if you haven't enabled the restoration station on your current floor, you would get the end game screen (which is still a fact if you play on the hardest difficulty). What they did in the remake is that they allow you to respawn on the closest level that has the restoration station. But they still made it that you die if you fight "Cortex Reavers" or a boss, or you are in a situation where "storywise" you are cut of from the restoration stations. So, yes it does sound like a mixed bag but it actually allows for a lot of flexibility in how you approach the game.
What I noticed with a good portion of "younger" generations of gamers (I am 41 btw) is that when they are given a hard save system they automatically see it as less of a chanllenge, or think that the game is too easy. But NO ONE is forcing you to use it to save scum. Make a hard save at the beginning of each floor and then don't save until you reach the next floor. Wanna play ironman mode? Fine. Save only when you are done playing a session. That way when you die and don't have the restoration station active you just don't reload and start the new game. It just give you flexibility to play the way you want.
I for example love to live with consequences in my games so I might even save after a tough fight which I barely survived, patch myself and continue on or even run back to "Maintenance floor" where I keep extra items stashed next to the recycler and freight elevator.
The magic of this type of games are the interconnected system. It is a "simulation". The game track each and every item on the station so if you dropped something it will stay there. Ohh and there is even a system where if the items somehow gets stuck or drops through geometry it will despawn and you can then find it in the garbage chute which is located on one of the decks.
TL:DR - You can choose how you want to play. It is not a bad game design it is actually a game design that support numerous styles of play. Like properly supports them. It is just that people are used to most of the modern games being "set dressing" and unless you tell them that they can do this or that, they will never even think to try it out.
@@ServantOfBoron ı think its just extrinsic and intrinsic motivation thing. intrinsic people are the type that will use just a pistol if the game is too easy or try a new strategy just to see how it is but extrinsic people will do something for the reward and for its efficiency, they'll abuse an exploit or a mechanic if it gives them the better results thats just how they are. These people don't go for walks unlike intrinsic people because there is no point to it, there has to be a goal and/or a reward for them like going to the shop to buy something (goal) or improve stamina (reward). They are also mixed with being a bit ruthless and heartless but thats outside of video game territory.
Me personally ı still play games like Counter-strike and Quake with the intention to win. There is a competitiveness deep within my brain and actively trying to do something when you know for a fact that there is a more efficient option and not because you lack the skill or the resources but because you intentionally chose the worse option just feels ... wrong.
There was a dev talk about XCOM and they used the term ''How game designers protect players from themselves'' ı think thats something everyone should check out if they wanna dive deep into devs ideas when they are making a game with extrinsic people in mind.
I think I've played System Shock too much, because the hallways don't all look the same to me. Besides, it's easiest if you break each level up into its quadrants: Alpha, Beta, Delta, and Gamma. Medical Level is blue and has octagonal corridors with blue square textures (and a crazy radioactive area that's all messed up). Medical is red and has narrow rectangular hallways (and a mess of ventilation shafts). Maintenance is orange and dark, is basically a small circle, and you die every 2 seconds from invisible mutants. Engineering is gray, sometimes red, and has very tall hallways. Storage is light blue and has branching paths to big rooms. Flight Deck has..flight decks, an ornate hallway, and a mess of maintenance shafts. Crew Quarters has black marble floors and a lot of red wall paneling. The groves are freaking awesome. Security..crap, I didn't make it that far in the remake. XP
Sorry to be so patronizing. I know these hallways a bit too well, I suppose... Anyway, the remake is a lot better than I expected, but I really prefer the original. The remake is tedious with its inventory system and crazy enemy spawning. ENOUGH WITH THE HOPPERS! GYAT DANG!
4:41 personally I'm a bigger fan of the of the idea of no pause during gameplay with a limited save system. It really keeps you on the edge and makes you consider time as a factor. For slower games like these it's perfect imo.
That would be fine but stealth isn't a thing
@@morkgin2459 It kind of is, in an old school way. If the enemy hasn't seen (or heard) you, you can walk past or do an ambush.
No, there isn't a "stealth critical" attack, or "stealth kill", but there is still some sort of stealth possible if you want to avoid the enemies, or lay out traps via mines corner ambushes.
@@KentuckyFriedJohansson well the level design doesn’t feature hiding and seeking either.
@@morkgin2459be observant and patient. Stealth wasn't my playstyle but I used it sometimes when ny rapier and crack ran out
@@matthewbrandt5053 Considering the fact that System Shock 2023 doesn't use the Dark Engine or anything remotely similar, stealth really isn't a playstyle. I've tried my best to sneak up on enemies with pipe, wrench, and laser rapier, and they all turn around and smash me in the face all the same.
Not that System Shock 2 really made much use of the Dark Engine, but it had that option for players who really wanted to instakill turrets by carefully avoiding all light sources, moving slowly to not make any noise, and giving a single wrench to the CPU when it doesn't notice you 3 inches in front of it.
The idea with the save states is that it's there for people who want it, and if you don't want to use it then you can ignore it. This is a common demand for the old school fans like those who funded the project. That's why you find a mix of save systems in many crowd-funded old-school games.
I saw someone on twitter skinning you over this video so I came here to see why people were pissed. As a fan of the original, I can totally see why this didn't gel with you. The original was obtuse and full of antiquated design, but seeing as how this was a game made for fans of the original, funded by those same people, it's not a surprise it turned out this way.
But...
It doesn't excuse it. This was the perfect opportunity to open this game up to a wider audience and sticking to the original caused it to stay an obscure classic.
Yeah. And i said clearly what I liked, I said i totally get why it's gonna be good for original fans, and stated that most of my issues are basically just personal and it statements about the game's quality. People simply can't handle their game not resonating with someone.
I agree so much with this, especially when it's sequel is what defined its established genre. I was expecting the remake to, put some of those innovations and make it available to a wider audience, I wasn't entirely disappointed about it not being a great remake, it is quite a good one. Though indeed it feels dated and kinda has this 90s gate other games don't even have from the same era, like, you could easily get into Blood from then and play its spiritual successors
You can’t serve two masters, unfortunately. The devs didn’t have the resources of a major AAA studio so they really didn’t have much wiggle room with the remake. They deserve praise for making it more accessible where they could, within the confines of the expectations of old-school fans. It does seem like certain parts could’ve been cut though to reduce tedium (the cyberspace sections)
How many times do we need to teach you this lesson, old man?
So this is like a "coin flip" perspective, compared to the new RE remakes faithfulness discussion right?
Wdym?
@@thegamerfe8751 I think they mean the discussion between the different Resident Evil remakes.
On one "side" of the coin, you have something like the RE3 remake, where it isn't particularly faithful to the original at all, in either presentation (camera view), combat, or content (much less content in the remake compared to the original). That "side" is changing too much.
This side of the coin might be not changing enough things, depending on how you feel the System Shock remake. Certainly the visuals have been updated but, by and large, little else has been updated outside of making System Shock play natively with a modern control scheme.
That is just my guess at what they mean though.
System Shock 2 is definitely worth trying even now. I played in in 2020 for the first time and it instantly became one of my favorite games of all time.
Agreed. I never played SS1, but I did play SS2 when it came out and loved it. Have played it again since and yup - still one of the greats.
As for this game - yeah, I kinda agree with most of the things in this video. I forced myself through the remake, but I can't say I really loved it. I think it's mainly because I've always wanted more structure in the games I play. I'm 40, so I was a gamer in the 90s, but even back then I struggled when a game didn't give me concrete objectives. Yes, in SS1 the overall objective is clear, but the things you have to do to get there... well, I guess I'm not the target audience for SS1.
SS2 is still an absolute masterpiece, though.
Mayo, the game you're looking for is System Shock 2. Don't worry, it's quite a different game from SS1. Once you'll play it, you'll see where Prey 2017 got most of its, uh... everything lol. And that's not me taking a dig at Prey, I love that game. But I'll put it this way: Arkane liked to make their own versions of Looking Glass/Irrational games.
Arx Fatalis is Arkane's Ultima Underworld.
Dishonored is Arkane's Deus Ex.
Prey is Arkane's System Shock 2.
Once you try it, you'll see what I mean. It's very, VERY obviously the mould that Prey was made in. I have no doubt you'll enjoy SS2.
Dishonored isn't the equivalent to deus ex. It's theif that it's going for. Raphaël Colantonio (the director of these games) even said it so himself. He was a huge fan of theif and wanted to create something in its vein.
@@bruhder5854 I've been dealing with people saying this since Dishonored came out. It's fundamentally nonsensical and serves as a 'how would you feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning' test of gaming.
For one, I have never once found Raphael Colantonio saying any such thing. I've seen him and Harvey Smith say Thief influenced them, but that's almost always in the same breath as they list Ultima Underworld and Deus Ex and System Shock 2 as their influences, as well. Sometimes, they'll narrow it down to 'Thief and Deus Ex'. And I've never seen either of them say, "This is our take on Thief." They have said, "We take influence from the level design and some of the world design of Thief."
Now that that's out of the way - Dishonored and Thief share almost no key similarities. Thief's sound propagation system? Gone. Stealth reliant on light and dark? Gone. A weak main character with poor combat effectiveness? Gone. A focus on going slow? Gone. (This is deliberate and follows from a conversation Harvey and Raph had with Doug Church.) Thief's sense of progression being tied directly to gadgets available to you, rather than making Garrett more powerful with abilities? Gone.
So... every notable part of Thief's design as a stealth game has been removed. Hm, but Dishonored has stealth, so what does it resemble? Oh, right, Deus Ex. Deus Ex also does not have light/dark stealth, nor a focus with sound that accompanies a sound propagation engine. Deus Ex also has your character get more powerful over the course of the game via abilities you choose (cybernetics rather than powers). Dishonored's stealth is literally Deus Ex's stealth, just with a more responsive character. Like Deus Ex, Dishonored's stealth has a LOT less options for the stealth-inclined player than Thief, because it's not the focus. Someone going into Dishonored expecting basically a new Thief game will be sorely disappointed.
Dishonored also has Deus Ex's larger freedom of approach. In Thief, you're expected to be a thief and play stealthily. Deus Ex did not opt to do that, though made this a playstyle you could go for if you wanted, but it gave you the tools and abilities to play through in a number of other completely different ways if you chose to. Dishonored follows this model exactly. Dishonored general structure also resembles Deus Ex more, even down to having the pub be a lot like UNATCO HQ. Level design in general also bears substantially more resemblance to Deus Ex than it does to Thief, though that's not to say there's no Thief influence at all, but it's clear that Deus Ex was the primary inspiration.
It really is just mindboggling how people continue to state this very obviously incorrect point about Dishonored being some successor to Thief, when playing even the first level in the prison demonstrates in profound fashion that this is not the case at all. The closest Arkane *ever* got to Thief was, weirdly enough, the stealth in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, which actually *was* influenced by how light or dark the area you were standing in was. It didn't *work* very well, but it's at least more like it than Dishonored.
I'm not even bothered that Dishonored doesn't play like Thief. That's fine. They wanted to make their own Deus Ex, so they did. But it does bother me how widespread this utterly baseless idea is and has been for over a decade. It's a really remarkable indicator of whether someone actually assesses what it is they're playing or not.
@@bruhder5854 Except its not even Thief, it's an action game with superpowers and pretty simple level layout, everything which Thief is not.
i pray no one makes a tweet saying that this is a negative review, and also trepang2 that is something that might interest you.
Buut it is quite negative review saying that game has a lot of flawed things in it being like, 90%. Even if it's something I'd consider to be true only partly it's still just a 21 minutes talking about the mistakes Nightdive have made
TREPANG2 yes yes.
you PRAY?! 😂
How is this not a negative review?
I appreciate the down to earth review, some of the issues listed are either inconsequential to me or partly the reason i'm looking forward to it. Sticking to the source material has it's price, i'm glad it's paid sometimes.
The game is a very faithful remake of the original with updated controls and slightly improved combat... the stuff you don't like about it are basically the same things you would not like about the original System Shock.
Yeah I'm sure that's the case.
As a person who loves System Shock 1 original, I liked this Remake too.
Some of the things people dislike about this game are actual purposful design choices. The levels are designed to stress you out. You can find in game lore stating that the space station itself was an experiment to observe people in a long term stressfuly designed space. This game isn't trying to distract you with spectacle. It's forcing you to focus if you want to make progress. It involves deduction. You can mark areas on the map to help you remember but you're better off if you actively try to memorize the level layouts. If you get frustrated you have to remember that there is a logical foundation to everything in this game. Somewhere there is an audio log or text that hints at what to do next.
This is easily the most truthul remake that has ever been made for any video game. They literally took almost everythi g as it is. Including annoying, outdated thing.
I think that the way System Shock remake allows the player to solve problems on their own without being directly guided is a fantastic aspect of the game. However Mayo's complaints also ring true. I think adding some small features would actually improve the experience quite a bit, for instance having a note system. This would allow the player to write down their objectives, instead of having to go by memory alone. The game actually already requires writing down notes, so it's insane that it cannot be done in-game. The whole idea of immersive sims is to remove as many barriers between the player and the game as possible, and having an in-game note system would be a great way to capitalize on that.
playing this now, i instantly grabbed a note pad and pen. just seemed like the right thing to do
Im gonna be pedantic, but I feel like it makes a difference. Prey is a spiritual successor to system shock 2 not system shock 1. SS1 and SS2 are different games, SS1 is more of a dugeon crawler while SS2 is more of the immersive sim that would become the main influence to 2017s Prey
This, ss1 is completely different from ss2
Nevermind, im not being pedantic at all. All of this review is based on the assumption that this game should have been like prey. Its ridiculous and honestly embarrassing, perfect example of the modern gamer syndrome: I will loudly complain that this game doesn't conform to my sensibilities while having no desire to put in any effort into trying to understand what its trying to do.
@@gbacl Yeah but you can't just take stuff from the 90s and slap it unto a modern release. System Shock 2 improved upon the sequel a lot, and if that is the definitive version or vision, isn't it better to just take stuff from it rather than rehash age old ideas and make essentially the same game with similar flaws?
@@gbacl Mayo is well known for being shit reviewer and having shit takes.
@@gbacl Except Mayo did in fact try to give it a fair chance, it's not like he's played it for 2 hours and haven't seen all this game has to offer. Or do you have to get a PhD to be able to "understand" what this game is trying to do? Also, where did he even say this game "should have been like Prey"? He used Prey as an example of some things it does better considering we are not in 1994 anymore and SS Remake was not constrained by limitations the original might have been constrained by (if there were any constraints to begin with).
basically modern gamer cries about old school mechanics
The original game had a way to take notes of objectives in game. And sorry if I'm not impressed by levels that all look the same, whimpy feeling guns, boring basic AI, a recycling system that doesn't make sense, and a broken save system.
@@underthemayo sorry my guy you were filtered.
It's one of those games that require additional patience. Sometimes they can be rewarding, for me Pyre, MGS5 and DMC5 were hard to get into, but I liked them in the end
Considering that enemies will continue to spawn in random places that you have cleared before, I'm okay with them remaining dead when you are revived.
Immersive sims: [Are not like Doom Eternal, as in slow and heavily puzzle based, also heavy stat management and funky UI in the case of the OG System Shock]
Mayo in his head: "Why you no be like Doom Eternal?!"
On a more serious note, I always wondered if there was an immersive sim who bassicly have speed and momentum as a prominent mechanic à la Sonic 1 (And that fps game based on a lack of friction, but it ain't immersive sim. I don't remember its name). Like, one of the ways you could beat an enemy would be that you can use the velocity you stored and bash into them.
Shoutouts to the little character in the original System Shock you can drag to lean. Even in a non-intereactible form he's so cute when he shmooves. May he rest in data.
And to paraphrase a famous Immersive Sim "expert", Charlatan Wonder (even if it makes me cringe a bit); Make art, not content.
It's pretty funny/depressing how a video can go heavy on comparisons to Prey and speak clearly about immersive sim mechanics but some people only hear Doom. Weird too.
The whole “hand holding” section wouldn’t be an issue if you just played the game on easy mode where the devs added objective markers? Like, maybe suck up the ego and play on easy if listening to audio logs is too much of a hassle….I played System Shock enhanced edition like 4 years ago and had no issues with the original?
Hm. I never played original System Shock but I LOVED the Remake. EDIT: I think the restoration bays work more as a reward mechanic for clearing the way to that specific bay. It makes your life easier in that part of the station. On higher difficulty the game just lets you die when it is not activated on the current level, plus there are cases in which you will die regardless in context of where you are in the story. It's different but imo not broken or unnecessary
This will be a long one, because I'm a long winded blowhard and I'm also trying to figure out why I just didn't connect with this when everyone else seemingly has; I know this video is "old" by modern standards, but I feel like you're helping me get my thoughts together.
The original System Shock came out when I was 10, though I didn't play it at the time because I didn't get into PC gaming until about a year later when I got the Shareware of Doom. That said, I was a voracious reader of PC Gamer at the time and I remember the staff always mentioning System Shock and how amazing it was.
Later in the 90's, I got into the "Im Sim" genre through Thief, later Deus Ex and I've loved them ever since and played just about every one I can think of. In 2020, at the height of the Pandemic, I decided to give System Shock Enhanced Edition a go and while I was only able to play maybe an hour a night or so, I absolutely LOVED it. It had a real sense of place, atmosphere and while the graphics are dated, it felt to me that I really was aboard Citadel station and investigating what happened here. I absolutely loved the game and couldn't put it down, I ended-up finishing it at 22-hours. Sure it has it's 90's jank, but a lot of it didn't bother me and I was very willing to forgive it.
Cut to the Remake, which I bought on release due to my experience with the original a few years earlier. I did end-up putting in a similar amount of time as you, 11-hours, but I just never connected with it. The environment feels boring and bland, the combat is extremely floaty and has no heft, everything looks the same. Where the original felt like it had a sense of place and I did feel like I could build a mental map, the Remake lacks that and I suspect that has to do with the bland graphical style they chose for this. The added mechanics (recycling) feel obnoxious and constantly in the way (as you've pointed out) and I don't feel add anything to the game; the constant animations after picking-up an audio log or keycard or whatever are completely unnecessary and slow down the game dramatically. The Remake feels like it has no tension and I'm not exactly sure why, but my working hypothesis is that the controls are so modern and fluid, unlike the original, that nothing feels like a threat.
In the original, you're slow, you move like a tank and when you come across an enemy, suddenly you need to switch Mouse Cursor modes so that you can actually aim. It feels tense, because you do have to fight the controls somewhat and in this regard, I'd almost suggest that it feels similar to Resident Evil, where having the challenging controls is part of the experience and what gives the game a lot of it's tension.
Hopefully this makes some sense, it's pretty much all stream of consciousness, but I'm trying to really work out why the game just feels Blah to me when I loved the original, even having only played it as an adult. I feel like I'm in the wrong here because so many people love it, but I just can't get along with it for whatever reason.
Yeah. It's a weird one for sure. I'm glad this video has helped people work out why it didn't work for them.
So I played and beat the original System Shock earlier this year for the first time without a guide and there’s absolutely a lot of context that matter. And I wanna be clear non of this is to invalidate the video all of their complaints are valid but I think context matters a lot.
Straight up nearly all of your complaints are still in the original but are more understandable in the context of a game from 1994. A lot of the problems arise from this being faithful to the point of inheriting all of the originals flaws and choosing to leave them in, however playing the game in 2023 with a wrapper of a modern game gives the expectation that there would be more modern quality of life features and there just isn’t.
For me personally my favourite thing about the original that flys in the face of modern design and expectations is the insane reliance on audio-logs and out of game note taking. And while that was absolutely my favourite part of the original I was shocked playing the Demo when I realised they didn’t add a quest log for some bizarre reason.
While playing I would always tab out and write my own pseudo quest log when listening to audio logs. When someone said we need to do X to accomplish Y but we need to get Z from the gamma quadrant on level 4 beforehand. I had meticulous notes and always knew exactly what I should be doing and where I should be going. So the fact they didn’t add a modern quest log that auto updates from picking up audio logs while being a huge part of the originals appeal in 1994 its frankly baffling in 2023
The other thing that really bothered me playing the remake demo is that in the original on top of placing map markers you were also able to label the markers and they would appear in your minimap, so even if the environments were very maze like you felt as though you were charting it out, placing markers for guidance (energy station, healing pod, elevator 1, entrance to beta quadrant, access to biopod 3), so even though the map was a maze the slow and methodical exploration combined with meticulous mapping, detailed markers and a more zoomed out minimap that actually showed the markers and their labels made it so by the time you finished exploring a floor you actually knew your way around pretty well with just your minimap and familiarity with the area, And a lot of that is lost here.
The last thing I want to touch on is cyberspace, and again I’m basing my impressions on the demo, but cyberspace was always bad in the original, awkward to control and clumsy to to navigate however they were short, you were rarely in there more then 2 minutes at a time and I’d be surprised if I spent maybe 30 minutes total in cyberspace across my entire playthrough. So imagine my surprise in the demo when they fixed the controls, made the environments nicer and the solid walls weren’t wireframes and made it easier to actually navigate the spaces……. Except now I got lost in cyberspace because all the walls look the Same the 6 DOF movement makes it really easy to get turned around and all the walls look the same, where as in the original wire frames made ir so you could always see a path forward or which path led where. and woops I died gotta do it all again and by the time I was done that first cyberspace level it’d be like 10-20 goddamn minutes in a section that literally took 2 in the original game and always felt like a side distraction.
Also the scrap and vending system is bizarre, it just straight up wasn’t in the original at all. I worry the extra clutter can make actually important items blend in, I just kind of ignored them in the demo so no option on that just figured I’d mention it.
But yeah just wanted to throw some thoughts into the void, it’s interesting to see a blind new players viewpoint because this is an experience I think a lot of people are going to have.
Thank you. I figured a blind perspective would be important to represent when 99% of the coverage is gonna be from people who know the original. Even if it gets hate because of it.
I agree with in most things, but there is one I have to disagree, the ''bafling'' exclusion of the quest log. As yourself noted, it made you engage more in the experience and plot, made you listen carefully to the audiologs. It is the same for me, I just finished engineering, but I have listened to some audiologs and they talk about at least 2 ways of netralizing Shodan (spoilers ahead), some audiologs talk about overheating the reactor to destroy the space station while other talk about using a chip to delete SHODAN, an I don't know yet what it will be, or how, but the necessity of listening to audiologs made I think about the plot much more than I would. I I actually fooled at the start in thinking the game didn't even had an objective, I listened to some audiologs talking about the mining laser and did't give them much mind because I had never ever before played a game where audiologs where important to gameplay, so when I got to an plotwall demanding I go back and deactivate the laser I was amazed that now I had to open each audiolog an listen to them again to see what the hell I was suposed to do. If there where quest logs I would probably complete the quest in my way while still ignoring the audiologs
I’ve been following this kickstarter for years: the developers originally wanted to revamp the source material more, but there was a big community pushback. So I guess the backers got what they wanted: a game with many dated elements, but a more accurate remake.
They stood by the reimagining. The problem is, it would have cost way more money.
No, its only the devs responsibility. The customers don't dictate your creative decisions.
@@damazywlodarczyk Then again, since when did audience respected design and creative decisions?
@@damazywlodarczyk They do when they literally fund it.
@@roble8943 They don't, was there a democratic survey where they asked their backers about dozens of creative decisions? No. The backers only gave money.
Having beaten the original System Shock I can say for certain that requiring you to find the conversion chamber on each floor just led to a lot of tedious running back to the surgical machine on Medical Deck after every fight. If anything, sending you back to the chamber on the last floor and starting you with half health just streamlines things and encourages you to play riskier and use more resources.
I think whenever we get a system shock 2 remake that will be the one you end up really liking. System shock 1 was really early but 2 really adapted upon the prey like structure of the game. I love this for bringing system shock to modernized mechanics. System Shock 2 is going to be amazing whenever that gets picked up
The peak of Immersive Sim was Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2. Those defined the genre.
System Shock was, together with Ultima, the precursors. Like comparing Wolfestein with Doom.
The funny thing is they even have an explanation in lore as to why the station is designed the way it was. Trioptimum was gathering data from its employees on the psychological effects of extended stays in cramped and mundane environments. The data was suppsoed to be used for the eventual plot device in SS2.
Yeahhh, quite a lot of this comes from them being faithful (which in some cases I done mind, others I do). At one point, they wanted this to be more ambitious, reimagining the game, but it was far too much work in the end.
However, stuff like lacking impact in combat, no making map notes from the OG and iffy implementation of recycling are a shame, because a lot of improvements were highly requested by many during development (including myself), and I wish that it was given MORE time so they could take that feedback and actually apply it.
I'll gladly enjoy it still, as I enjoyed the original plenty and this is the same but generally better, but yes... it's a very tough thing to enjoy for many. The game worked best as the Enhanced Edition, where it's clearly still a game of the time, with everything intact.
I'm glad you understand that it's a very subjective thing, though. I personally LOVE the very open, "get lost"-type exploration, and the strange puzzles are much more involved than the ones in the original SS1, in a good way.
About PREY 2017, I enjoy it plenty for different reasons. It's probably the best iteration of the immersive sim genre (I certainly enjoy it a LOT more than Bioshock), and the set objective with many ways to get to it approach is such a breath of fresh air after both the most ludicrously open and linear games were the previous major releases in the genre. PREY is still the one I'd absolutely recommend to anyone, while System Shock and its remake... less so, but it still gets my personal recommendation to those who can tough through it.
Great video!
It's true that Prey is the most accessible but it's also true that because of that it's one of the easiest in the ImSIn design philosophy space. I've yet to play the SS remake but if it fills the difficulty niche then i think that's necessary even if it's at a cost to accessibility
@@Spokenword prey with traumas and weapon degredation on hard + isn’t challenging ?
i really dont like bioshock. the atmosphere is cool but i enjoy nothing about yur game really. i do like the third one but thats just a straight up shooter
funnily enough, playing the demo for the System Shock remake is what got me to finally play Prey.
@@gozutheDJ It's really not, firearms by themselves get too strong really quickly, not to mentioned when combined with spells.
@@Spokenword spells? lol
I didn’t play this as a kid. I saw the art as a kid and wanted to know what it was. Only a few years ago did I finally play thru the System Shock games and I loved them. I have no nostalgic feeling for them but I know a game like it would have captivated me as a kid. Seeing the game remastered like Resident Evil 1 was by capturing every aspect of the original game was exactly what I wanted.
Can totally understand though how it wouldn’t appeal to others. It doesn’t hold your hand and you can get lost easily. I know I did trying to find Diego’s office. Oddly enough I think I had the same exact issue when I first played the game. I always seem to miss the main hallway leading to the central hub on the Executive level.
I haven't played many releases since the early 2000's and the ones I did touch were mediocre at best (I'm talking AAA). Convenience has made us allergic to anything that's not streamlined to the latest trend. I see nothing wrong with this game and the choices the devs made.
The reviewer:: This isn't for me
The audience: And I took that personally
No seriously. I wasn't even born when the game came out, and I only got into immsims proper a few years ago. I held off playing System Shock until the remake was out, hoping that the remake would give me the authentic experience... and it did. And it's a bit underwhelming for me too, though my reasons aren't the same and I still overall like the game.
I find lack of objective clarity okay so far. I wouldn't mind having some generic quest prompt on screen (example: "Decrease the security level" or "Find and destroy the CPU nodes") but I figured most of it out myself so far, except for not noticing the number in the first CPU node room which I still have to come back for. I really don't get the confusion, at least so far. Maybe I'm too early in the game? Except people seem to say the early game is the most confusing sooooooooo...
One of the things I personally don't like is the map design. It's a bit labirynthy. It's okay when exploring, but when backtracking having to go through half the map just to reach a room that's right next to my current room map wise is a little annoying. It's definitey an attention span thing, but yeah... walking around forever gets annoying, especially if I'm just trying to sell off a bunch of items.
Anyways, idk. It's easy to sum up someone else's view of a game as "it's not this other game that I like, therefore it sucks" and it's easy to find that stupid, especially if you feel really passionately about the game yourself. It's a reductive way to see it though. If someone showed me the best horror movie in existance I still wouldn't like it if I don't like horror movies and prefer comedy. You could sum that up as "it's not a comedy" and if you say it funny enough it might sound like an invalid thing to say, but do I really have to like horrors? Is it a mandatory thing? Back to the game... he states it's just his opinion? And he's entitled to it? And first thing he does in the video is say multiple times it's just how he feels and that he still appreciates the legacy? Holy crap you people really just can't let someone have their own preferences. Internet mobs are stupid.
Yeah it really doesn't matter how clearly you state the difference between the bits you just personally don't resonate with, and the parts you do think are actual flaws. To some people it just means you hate it, don't get it, and suck. The response to this isn't nearly as bad as other though.
They should have just remade System Shock 2, it's a WAY better and more modern game with way more build variety and replayability
I really miss playing that game
Dunno how I missed this vid being posted. I gotta say, I like that the game is moddable to some degree, making all junk 1x1 and stackable, along with making the recycler larger really cuts down on the tedium. Also used a mod to make the gun in the hacking section do 4x damage because I simply am not feeling them, they are long and you can miss stuff while I want to explore and find logs and junk. Sure the mods will make getting the achievement for the hardest difficulty easier, but tedium just isn't fun.
As for it being an ImmSim, its a proto one, it lacks the real ImmSim qualities that would come with later games
System shock 1 is more like a cyberpunk themed dungeon crawler than an immersive sim.
19:08 Because the game you are looking for is System Shock 2 and Deus Ex, its like going in DooM 1993 with new sprites and saying it doenst have glory kills or the maps are almost maze like.
I'm honestly impressed they made a game remake still feel very similar to the way it did back in the day. Yes, it is dated, and yes, I agree that sticking to the original isn't always such a good idea, especially since a lot of remakes do make or break with adding newer things.
But in this era it's rather different to have a game that feels dated for all intents and purposes because it was originally. Also I wish they remake System Shock 2, it's where things really started.
I'd rather have a system shock 3 honestly.
@@saisameer8771 If only it will happen, and if it does, there's a risk it will take the modern design yet do so wrongly
@@danielgeronimo5538 If a System Shock 3 is made, it's going to be a copy of the Bioshock formula and alienate fans again. The minds behind System Shock and System Shock 2 moved on to make Bioshock, and they never went back.
@@commode7x I won't go that far, Prey 2017 understood the genre and formula and got so many things right, when Ken Levine threw away everything that made the Shock series any good, including BioShock.
I guess whether Nightdive takes on SS2 next will depend on how well this remake does for them. I know the CEO is a huge System Shock fan, so if this game does well, I think he'd happily remake SS2, too. This remake seems to have been mostly well received, so here's hoping. I absolutely love SS2 and a modern remake would be awesome, if done well.
SS3 would also be cool, but yeah... seems doubtful that'll happen anytime soon.
Honestly,For what's it worth...I am just happy the kick starter didn't turn into a mess and the backers got EXACTLY what they backed for instead of turning into...ya know,Mighty no 9.
This game may not be for everyone but for the ones who backed this up all the way back in 2016 ? They got their money's worth.
Restoration bays and the wait for recyclers felt like an oddity to me in the remake. Although there's little reason to not vaporize the junk you find instead of scrap them in bulk, if one sought to loot all junk at all. Ultimately, I think it was primarily designed around decision making and possible time wasting for if you play on level "3" difficulty for Mission, giving you a 10 hour time limit to finish the game. That and probably padding for lower difficulties.
That's a guess of mine, though. I haven't tried "3333" difficulty yet for a second playthrough, though I'm planning to after a couple of updates.
The respawn thing in system shock 2 took resources; I feel like they should have implemented that again
Because it’s not Doom Eternal guys😂
Yup.
As someone who is playing system shock 1 for the first time this game is great,
I like the minimum directions to player approach it makes me use my head instead of following a marker everywhere,
the AI is simple but I think that was more a deliberate choice as the combat isn't fluid enough for quick enemies,
as far as the aesthetics are concerned I like it the environment has a cold metallic feel to it and reminds me of alien I can see how this game laid the foundation for the immersive Sim genre but I still think the og deus ex is the pinnacle of that design philosophy.
Nothing will beat deus ex lol
@@-jobrocodwawz-6226 lemme ask something. Is the AI or atleast the combat in Deus Ex good? Haven't tried that game yet, and are you referring to the old Deus Ex game?
@@kyradflinko62 yes I'm referring to the original Deus Ex. The combat and AI aren't the best in terms of games today but are completely functional and aren't bad at all. The main hook of the game IMO is just how much you can do. Any objective you get will have like 10 intended and 100 more unintended ways to complete them and you can spec into any kind of playstyle you want and it works. Imagine ss2 if every build you could make was viable, there were way more possible builds and youre a cyborg cop who has to uncover conspiracies while being a general badass. Plus there are soooo many moments in the game where different things happen based on your actions organically and not shoved in your face. DEUS EX IS the video game of all time and what we wanted cyberpunk to be
Edit: ever heard the meme "if someone mentions Deus Ex on the internet you have to replay it"? Looks like I'm gonna have to replay it lol. FYI I'd recommend a lore friendly graphical mod just so the old models and textures aren't too jarring
Dude great critique and feel sharing. I love that you openly address that there are some people who will like what you don't like. I love the game specifically for the lack of info, and the stressfull level design. I find it to be a harsh endurance run. It's the same difference between DND 1e and 5e. 5e is softcore and more heaivly interested in roleplaying for a lot of people with lots of reailroading even for DM's with an unbalanced challenge rating in favor of the players. 1e was a hardcore dungeon crawl.
Good point though is that preay is basically a more streamlined spiritual successor to it.
I really love immersive sims myself. Loved the video.
Everything I've seen points to this game being made primarily for fans of the original, which I respect. I don't mind the 90s jank but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
I think the remake paints the original game in a worse light than it deserves. NightDive has stayed true to things about the original game that ought to have been redesigned (boxy mazelike level design, simplistic enemy AI, free respawning, no objective tracking) while also obscuring or forgetting things about the original that made it great (clean and vibrant visual design that made areas look distinct, upbeat electronic music, snappy short puzzles, freeform movement), and also adding superfluous stuff like the recycling system which is super undercooked from a UI/UX standpoint and a balance standpoint as you already can find more resources than you need without it.
There are things about the original that worked that no longer work in the remake, but they're subtle things that you wouldn't know unless you played the original, so the flaws of the remake seem to stem from faithfulness to the original when this is not exactly the case.
For example, figuring out where to go and what to do was EASIER in the original game despite the lack of objective tracking, as there was much less visual clutter and you could instantly scan a room to see what was there to pick up -- it's the same reason the RE4 Remake had to cover every important prop in yellow paint. This also made it easier to pick out landmarks as the level geometry wasn't obscured by busy details and high-contrast lighting. I'd also argue the audio logs were quicker and more to the point, and it was easier to look over their text while playing, vs. in the remake you have to stay in the media tab to read the text.
These map details also get in the way of the player physics, which was a big innovative element in the original game, letting you jump and bounce with simulated momentum, whereas the remake is much stiffer with your running and jumping. You could mantle a lot of surfaces in the original, where now you have to find a ladder which locks you into a restrictive climbing animation. You can find a set of rocket skates in System Shock, which were a joy to use in the original to speed around the map at turbo speed because it was designed as a 3D skatepark playground with straightaways and ramps, but the remake puts railings and posts all over for realism which further cramps your once expressive degree of player control. Prey's jetpack actually has its roots in System Shock's rocket skates and jet boots which also played into a Metroidvania element for unlocking new areas, but you wouldn't really get that feeling playing the remake.
The original game had even worse enemy AI, but the combat was actually more fun for a few key reasons. Firstly, blood from mutants and sparks from robots together with punchy sound effects made for really effective hit feedback -- a missed lead pipe swing would audibly whiff through the air while a hit on a mutant would let out a squelchy crunch vs. a metallic clang on a hard surface. In the remake you barely get the sense that you're damaging enemies, they hardly stagger, and the sounds are pitiful. What's more, the simplistic AI of the original didn't hurt the tension of combat, because you had to manually manage your weapons and character state much more explicitly. There were two states of crouch and an analog lean which had to be mastered alongside the basic movement (the original game didn't support mouselook) to effectively use cover. There were no hotkeys to reload or swap ammo types; you had to open your weapon interface panel, press the button to unload your current magazine, and then choose an ammo type to load. If you were already empty, then you'd have to remember to only click once as you were already unloaded, simulating tactical vs speed reloads. The reload was instant save for the time to mouse over to the weapon interface panel, so you could actually get faster at reloading as a player, and have the panel queued up in the same way a prepared combatant would have their reserve magazines at the ready. The same weapon interface panel was used to tune the energy settings of your laser weapons. Was it clunky at first? Yes, but mastering it was key to the depth and challenge of the combat. No one expected NightDive to keep this manual degree of control in the remake, but I had hoped they would have beefed up the other aspects of the challenge to make up for the streamlined interface and modern controls, particularly in the enemy behaviors. They're a little more sophisticated, but only just barely, and the combat isn't satisfying enough to make up for it.
The respawn chambers seem nonsensical and consequence-free in the remake. They weren't perfect in the original, but i think they were more defensible. For one, enemy respawning was much more aggressive. Though not on a random timer like in SS2, certain populations of enemies would respawn in large numbers when enough of them were killed, making it very likely that you had to deal with more enemies as you retraced your steps on dying and respawning. The respawing system truly shined in repeat playthroughs on the maximum Mission difficulty, which placed a global 7 hour timer on your run. Dying and respawning (as well as cheese strats like running to the healing bed and exploiting enemy AI around corners with low power ammo) was a big waste of time, which was crucial to optimize as you gathered resources and tackled objectives. The remake still features this mission timer difficulty setting, but few players will want to attempt it considering how much slower the gameplay is; your movement is more restricted, the cyberspace and puzzles take twice as long (the original puzzle mechanics were much better), and navigating the station and searching for items is that much more mentally taxing.
Obviously, the original game is dated and flawed, and it won't be everyone's cup of tea. But I think it actually has greater appeal and more solid design than the remake, which is faithful in content but not really in spirit. It pains me that people are attributing the flaws of the remake to the original, when in reality the latter had a more coherent vision.
Also there's no flechette machine gun in the remake, LAME
Well put.
The remake lacks the "simulation" aspects that made the original so unique. I don't think enough improvements were made with how the combat feels to make up for it.
Regarding visuals, the Remake falls into the same traps as many modern games in which everything just feels like too much visual information, it gets kinda tiring to look around for items after a while at least for me and I don't think the enemy animations or combat feedback feel as brutal in the remake somehow.
"There were no hotkeys to reload or swap ammo types" This is false, SS1 dos original had it with Alt Backspace and Ctrl Backspace. Also, they worked instantaneously.
@@MGMan37 Was that indicated anywhere? I looked in the original manual and couldn't find it.
Implementing that (without any delay in reloading) seems a serious error in judgment in any case, so I'm glad that it's so opaque that most players have evidently never known about it.
@@rosodudersd260 you should watch how I play system shock 1 hehe, despite playing the enhanced edition, everything I do except mouse look (which I plan to remove in a future attempt) can be done in the OG :)
I want to like Mayos content but he hardly seems to enjoy much of anything and isnt consistent on his complaints between games. I find myself rolling my eyes finding out he doesn't like yet another widely accepted game and for reasons he doesn't seem to mind in other games. Do your thing, mayo. I suppose our opinions are just a bit too different. maybe as I get older im just allowing myself to enjoy things a little bit more
Mayo, whats the difference between RE4 inventory system compared to this one? You like the original RE4 system with no auto sort. Is it the quantity of resources?
Also, i like the pause menu being live. Keeps with the games roots and is similar to Dead Space
I would say in my humble useless opinion that it's the amount of stuff that is the difference. In re4.. you don't have to manage your items every couple of enemy encounters. Also re4r spoiled a lot of us with the auto sort.
Difference being that re4 is 20 years old and I would absolutely prefer it with an auto sort, which the remake implemented.
imagine you had enough self control not to use the save system instead of whining that you want the devs to corral you for some reason.
Imagine whining because someone thinks the game's save system could be better thought out.
you can just decide not to use it or use it sparingly? having trouble with self control? @@underthemayo
2 is the one I want remade.
1 was a bit simple compared to 2 and definitely clunky, even for the time. And I think that clunkiness manages to shine through, even in this remake
They're making a remaster of the 2nd so I'm down for it
Eh, 2 is the more timeless and better aged game. A remake is unnecessary.
@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 If only the modders could change the game and its every elements and turn it like it's a fan-made remake. Then an actual remake(made by the devs) would not be necessary.
@@kyradflinko62 Can't tell if you're being facetious or not, but if you aren't, the SS2 modding scene has actually kind of done this, from tons of mods fixing bugs and glitches like Olfred's fixed objects and SHTUP to Shock Community Patch with its massive gameplay overhauls and quality of life changes. And visual and auditory upgrades like The Four Hundred (named because it upscales texture quality by 400%), Tacticool, Vurt's Organics/Flora Overhaul, and SCHMUP. And the controversial Rebirth that updates character models to HD which imo takes too many liberties and strays too far from the original art style, but has its fans.
There's so much more. Remaking SS2 is as redundant as ever with the existence of its modding scene. But I guess it's kind of like the many calls to remake/remaster Fallout New Vegas, some people really can't be bothered to figure out how to mod a game for a few minutes and just want to play it updated ASAP. Or own a console, which really that's their own fault (just kidding... half-kidding).
If you were being facetious, thanks for bringing it up.
@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 I've never played System Shock 2 tbh n just waiting for a remaster wow. Can you list me the very good mods to play with but canon friendly?
Honestly, the original SS1 was practically like the remake with the maze-like levels and sheer longevity of objectives and lack of "hand-holding". I honestly think if Nightdive remade the second one, it would be a much different story for you, because it's not nearly as maze-like, it's easy to check for what your objectives are, the "puzzles" are basically just hacking minigames like those in bioshock, and there were just way way way more quality of life improvements made. It kind of feels almost like a different game compared to the first one, but I genuinely think it's a much better experience for most newcomers...not that the first is bad or anything
Mayo: The enemy AI is uninteresting.
Also Mayo: Enemies snipe you from across the room, sneak up on you, and swarm you.
Yeah. That doesn't make them interesting. A guard that just stands still from across the room out in the open, and can hit scan snipe you when he can't even see you... that's not interesting.
"Enemies snipe you from across the room, sneak up on you, and swarm you."
Um.... Yeah, that's extremely basic and simple AI. That's the same AI complexity as classic Doom (which is endless fun, don't get me wrong, but the enemy AI in classic Doom is NOT impressive in the least).
@@DeadPixel1105eah classic doom ai isn't impressive either. But AI should generally compliment your combat options. Very simple AI works great when your options are basic. Look at dead space. Or yes classic fps games like doom or Duke 3d. Or Mario. Or lots of games with simple AI implemented in smart ways.
Like, zombie AI is super basic. But it works if your character is slow, low health, and limited to just a pistol and 8 bullets. It's all relative.
@@underthemayo i honestly dont think the ai of system shocks enemies is less advanced than doom or mario. the placement is definitely less advanced but the behavior is basically the same. i think this comes down to the fact that system shocks enemies tend to wander around though if theyre the type that arent used mostly in scripted sequences, thus they cant really exhibit more intelligent placement like dooms enemies. this also is just a result of it being a nonlinear game though.
Funny thing is texture of the wall and floor is different in every level or section of the map. The real problem is THE DARKNESS. System shock wasn't dark game in the beginning. Since every hallway is freaking dark every hallway feels same. It wasn't like this even in 2017 unity remake version. I don't know what make dev choose this game having horror game level darkness which absolutely isn't.
p.s. There is another door in research floor which isn't broken and will be open. I have no idea why dev made this change since both door works in original version.
Great game. Sure, the gripes are valid. All games have their flaws, like the ones mentioned here. The developers could have added a few features to address some of them without violating their vision of recreating the 1994 experience. It is what it is.
I just thought of this but what if the save and checkpoint system was balanced for a all 3 difficulty? In the enhanced edition I was also curious for why we'd use respawn when we have save states.
Time.
You have 6 hours, you don't have the time to die.
It's a canon way i believe. Shodan wouldn't wait an eternity to destroy the Earth. But it's too much for the new players tho
@@Eric_Nomad_Hixtone Which is probably why they implemented the 123 system...though lets be honest, the control Scheme is the Dark Souls of control Schemes :P
Wait, I'm confused. Whenever I died, I came back with critical health with the possibility that enemies have already started repopulating the level. It was still pretty forgiving, but the possibility of healing to get back to where I died just to get ambushed and lose more resources was a constant. Was there some rebalance patching?
He probably played on a low difficulty setting.
The game is definitely not intended for a modern zoomer audience, and I can see how some players could feel deceived when they see the beautiful visual appeal of the game, but underneath that coat of paint it plays like a clunky 1994 dos game. This was an intentional design choice.
I agree with many of your points. Cyberspace shooting blows. The Recycler capacity is brutal and needless. The repetitive tiled textures are very samey(faithful adaptation but something to make spaces more distinct would really help), an objectives tab like in Prey would be very welcome. And enemy A.I. is basic. All this stuff could be improved and would not harm the original design of the game. But...
...the game was developed by a small team. They had to cancel their initial attempt as it suffered from feature creep probably from the same desire for modernization of all these various elements you've brought up, putting it well beyond the scope of their modest budget. So they went the route of a faithful remake with all the pros and cons that entails. And I love it. Would I rather have more modernized systems? Of course! But as I never played the original, I like that I can have a similar experience to the OG without having to actually play the OG, which while I do own...I'd rather not. It's so janky.
System Shock 2 on the other hand I did play on an underpowered PC back in 2000. I didn't get very far because the performance was so poor but it lived on in my mind as one I'll eventually get back to. But what I did play, I absolutely loved. The whole aesthetic was better. No more repetitive abstract tiled textures, the Von Braun looked like a spaceship not some technicolor funhouse and had a more sane level design. Combat and Inventory management was also improved. I really hope Nightdive can remake that one.
As far as Tencent and System Shock 3 goes? I hope they do the smart thing and hire Arkane to do it. They would knock that shit out of the park since they already shipped the blueprint in 2017 with Prey, a tragically overlooked masterpiece.
It's been nice to see a good number of fans be accepting of this video. Not too many wackos. It's totally fine to acknowledge these flaws and still have a great time. Never said anyone was wrong for loving it.
4:42 vulnerability in a horror game? absolutely terrible
I'm a fan of the original, and I absolutely loved this remake. System Shock has always been this weird niche game for a very specific type of gamer. One of my main concerns when the remake released was that people would be drawn in by the visuals and presentation, not realizing that in the end it is still a 90s game with few gameplay changes. Thankfully, it does seem like a lot of modern players are engaging with the game on its terms, and SS1 now has a ton of new fans.
Most of the critiques were pretty understandable, and the ones I disagreed with are pretty much up to personal preference. I personally liked the level design and lack of direction, however I get that it isn't for everyone. However I'm honestly happy they stuck with a far more faithful remake then trying to "update it for modern audiences".
The Save System is a weird one and is kind of a problem with the remake. In the original, you can only respawn at a restoration bay if you are on the same floor as that restoration bay, and if you aren't you just gameover. I honestly like this part of the original a lot better because respawning from a different level's restoration bay just means you waste your time when you die.
Also, if you want to give Immersive Sims another shot, play the original Deus Ex. Best game in the genre hands down.
Also yeah, I agree with you especially in regards to how every floor looks the same!!! System Shock 2 doesn't have this problem at all! And just like you, I had zero issue with Resident Evil's map layout... I dare someone to call that "hand holding" too. Nah man, System Shock's map design is a labyrinthe. Some people are okay with this, but those people also probably enjoy corn mazes (I don't). It's only a plus if you like that kind of stuff. I don't think System Shock is much of an immersive sim... when I think immersive sim, I'm thinking Star Citizen or Elite Dangerous. There is nothing sim-like about System Shock lol
immersive sim is a pretty big genre; prey is actually more inspired by system shock 2 and bioshock, NOT system shock 1. SS1 is an immersive sim, but many gameplay elements were introduced in SS2 and BS1 that defined a new subgenre of immersive sims. hope that explains the lack of similarities between this and prey
overall great review! i still love this clunky hunk of junk but maybe that’s just nostalgia, your criticism is very valid
hacker space always sucked, it was a confusing mess especially back in the old games.
the puzzles… that’s wrong… ss1 had many unique and different puzzles, i don’t know why they neutered that down to only 2. time constraints? oh well…
Idk about immersive sim being a pretty big genre. It's relatively small if you ask me.
- deus ex
- thief
- system shock
- bioshock
- dishonored
- prey
- gloomwood
- cruelty squad
A few other indie ones as well but that's about it from what I remember
@@bruhder5854 yeah it’s very small, but i guess i mean wide? all those games have similarities while still being relatively distinct, like prey bioshock and ss2 have massive similarities to the point they stand on their own within the genre.
@@aryaozeroch I see what you mean
When BioShock came out it was the first game heralded by it's creators as the "spiritual successor" to system shock. And fair enough. The lead designer on Bioshock was the Lead Designer on System Shock 2. But the Vita Chambers had no consequences. you didn't even have to turn them on. I will agree that I found the fact that you could respawn from death on a different level to be a bit weird. But if you really were paying attention to the logs on the Medical deck especially and following the subtext. The PC is deactivating the cyborg conversion of the med chambers, which normally just heal you. Shodan wants cybernetic minions, so the borgs around the levels scoop up your incapacitated body, and take you to the conversion chamber to borgify you. But if you turned it off before hand, bam, you're healed again. It makes sense to me. I just wish they hadn't removed the tension of knowing if you died on a new level before you found it, you were dead dead. not Incap'd and revived in a med bay by some hapless borg who thought he was doing a good job for mommy Shodan. And the fact that you have to run around to get back where you were is certainly a consequence of "dying". And if you are actually playing on the hardest difficulty, using those chambers and not save scumming, the game becomes VERY challenging because of the hard time limit to finish.
The inclusion of both methods of progress, a save system and a revive system, is another hallmark of the Immersive Sim imho. Give the player choices, not restrictions. This type of game is built for emergent gameplay, the concept is literally... if you think the saves make it too easy with no consequence... than don't use the save system. The developer puts that responsibility on you. Because that's the ImmSim way.
I understand this is less a review than a "why It didn't click for me" video. But I've always found the story of the games development to be a relevant piece of the puzzle that you didn't really dive into. Why is this game the way it is?
I never played the original but I like games and their history. Personally, what I was hoping from this remake was a game that would give me a similar experience to the original but with better controls/navigation and where I could just install it and play it. Most of those games from the 90s need mods and lots of getting used to the controls to play them and I'm sure teenage me wouldn't have had a problem, but adult me has grown used to better controls and it's really hard to switch back and forth. I recently also played Wolfenstein 3D for the first time and it's awkward for me to play it, I might not finish it, but I appreciate playing it and just getting an idea of "yes, this is how things started" and it lets me appreciate what comes after even more.
There was actually an official Source Port of the original called System Shock Enhanced that came out some years back, if you were still curious about the OG you could get that too.
@@Cr4z3d is that on Steam?
Review Translation:-
_"I'm a scrub"_ 😂
The label "immersive sims" is thrown around a lot these days, but I don't think it fits the very first System Shock well at all. System Shock is as old as me. It comes from a time when having a narrative or a basic physics system in a FPS game was a huge deal. System Shock was really famous for being an actual 3D game. It had a lot of "firsts" in video games history, but its immersive sim qualities feel way more like a happy accident or ways to deal with technology at the time than intentional design. A lot of fans of the first game gonna hate me for saying that, but first System Shock has more in common with first Doom than any other immersive sim.
The remake being faithful is in a way a double edged sword. It looks great, but plays a lot like the original. It is a love letter for the fans by the fans. But overall I'm happy that Nightdive stuck to their guns, and did not tried to make it into another homogenized mess like Redfall.
"its immersive sim qualities feel way more like a happy accident or ways to deal with technology at the time than intentional design"
It was intentional design.
"the first System Shock has more in common with first Doom than any other immersive sim"
I... really don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. The original Doom and the original System Shock are ***VERY*** different. And while, sure, SS2 is also quite different from SS1, there's still more similarity there than between SS1 and Doom. But I think a better comparison to SS1 is... Thief. Not because System Shock plays like a Thief game - it obviously doesn't. But because Thief and System Shock are both unique as """immersive sims""" (I hate that term) in that they're much more focused on a specific type of play, while still giving you freedom of approach. System Shock 1 says "you're a cybernetically enhanced hacker that's good at shooting shit. How you go about being this thing is up to you," much in the same way Thief says, "You're an agile thief that uses his tools to avoid getting himself into combat, because he's not a good combatant and is squishy. Here's your choice of tools. Don't get killed."
This is in contrast to System Shock 2 or Deus Ex or Prey's style of 'immersive sim' where it's more opened up like an RPG. The *entirety* of freedom of approach is given to you. You can choose to *not* be the sneaky boy. You can choose *not* to take the alien powers, etc. It's just a different level of how defined the character they're giving you control over is. That can come off as meaning Thief or SS1 aren't as 'free', but that more defined role has more freedom given to the player in terms of gameplay choices compared to a player-chosen role in other 'immersive sims'. One player's way of playing SS1 could be wildly different than another's, except not because one chose to be a hacker and one chose to shoot everything with heavy weapons a la SS2, but because one, for instance, decided to dope himself up and slice everything to pieces like a methed up cyber samurai, while another plays cautiously, uses grenades, peeks around corners, and uses the cybernetic that allows him to see behind himself at all times.
This game has been an interesting thing its a really good remake, but as a modern game somethings are annoying. but the cool thing is that its a way to view how games were back then. I never played the og system shock and wanted to and now I can experience a pretty much faithful remake and get a glimpse in to the past. I think that's why I truly enjoy this remake.
Yeah, i totally get the perspective.
@@underthemayo Yeah because it mirrors YOUR perspective. Lol. Empathy incarnate over here. Where was the empathy for the devs of Alien Isolation...
@@keelyourshelf I don't have it because they took a 2 hour idea and stretched it in 15 with awful gameplay of childish minigames, a laughable alien, and a protagonist that breaks all of alien lore by breaking herself out of her cocoon. Crap game.
@@underthemayowell said.
I understand why you didn't like it, but as a non fan of the first game, but a fan of the second one, this game gave me what i always wanted. System Shock 1 with a normal interface and controls. I could never get into the old one because of it, and the game not only gave us this but improved everything and gave us new gameplay additions :) The comparison to Pray is interesting because I'm getting all the vibes and feelings from playing that game. It's not the same game of course but it sure has immersed me into the game and I'm really enjoying it. Don't even have a problem with the map, yeah it's huge but i intuitively just started exploring parts of the map that were empty, listening and reading to everything, writing down codes, and while i get confused and lost without the map, once i look at it i know where to go and start remembering where everything is. It's kinda fun that the map was made to confuse not only players but it has the same purpose in the game lore with the company experimenting on the station residents. I agree to a degree with the cyber sections, they are the worst part, but not horrible. Regarding the save game feature, well firstly it's not resident evil and not designed with limited saves in mind, secondly you can just choose to not use save games or limit yourself to a certain number of save games. I know that you had to pay for regeneration in SS2, but if i remember correctly for the original, you have less health when you regenerate the more you go further in the game. Also, you could quick save and load in Prey all the time, I don't get why you have a problem with it here. Not calling you out, just curious :) All in all, I'm having a blast with the game so far, too bad you weren't, but thanks for the honest and detailed review of why it turned you off, was still fun to watch ^^
I share Mayos opinion, mainly bc for me, as i'm getting older and being more intentional with my time, I tolerate less time sinks. Yes, 9 sprawling maze-like levels is awesome, for the 19yo me. 12 hours is all i could muster. The puzzles don't give you all the information you need to solve them, re-spawning becomes tedious after fighting enemies that don't telegraph and the cyberspace sections are dull, esp if it's unclear what they unlock once completed. Yes, don't hand hold me, I've played Souls and Tarkov, but give me a compass, point in a direction, then let me go.
So the Bioshock regen system? Die 100 timea taking down a Big Daddy, and he keeps all the damage between encounters?
That was one of the things that turned me off to that series, it felt really cheep.
I simply didn't use it
They were called Vita chambers and you could disable them from the menus and only use hard saves.
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan So when you died, you immediately loaded your last save? Fair enough, it's just a shame that the game shipped with such a shit and broken mechanic.. Thankfully, they patched in the ability to turn off vita chambers in Bioshock and Bioshock 2.
@@ThePhantomTommy what is the difference honestly from loading a quick save that respawning after you unlock the chamber?
@@ThePhantomTommy Yeah, I'd just reload
The lock door in research is literally just their for decoration; If you go around the middle section their should be another door that just requires either a keycard or security clearance check: But regardless I kinda both get your complaints but also: I feel like you're really not the type of cloth cut for this sort of game...which is fine.
Yeah I got the same feeling, the level design is bad by comparison. When u had played prey, modern Deus ex, dishonored, bioshock and many other in the genre. This feels a lot more like a remastered than a remake, even tho I never played the original
I always thought it was System Shock 2 that Prey is similar to, not System Shock 1. System Shock 1, compared to other games for its time was an Immersive sim. Especially its clunky controls and extra content that the remake does not have. A lot of System Shock 1 imo was fun for its clunkyness because you figure out ways to make the controls work for you and your playstyle, similar to how people play System Shock 2 but emphasised with different play styles/Classes.
12:00 Btw.. there is an item that you can use to completely skip the puzzle ;) I had 3 of them and that "Gray" area puzzle room was just 5 seconds long :) Like you said at 12:05 ^_^
that argument about the resident evil map being easy to navigate I gotta say IMO is not true, as a guy who only played it recently on steam its so confusing and each floor has some puzzle and no objective tracker so I have no idea if the puzzle I'm trying to solve is for getting an item or its something that progresses me through the game, like I face the same confusion you seem to have when dealing with system shock maps which is now better cause steam added a notes feature so I can simply note down what I was doing and have it there everytime I open resident evil but unlike re2 remake which does have an objective indicator so I know what I should be doing, like the fake shield in the dining room is for some puzzle that happens after rebecca or jill play the piano I picked it up thinking the puzzle would be on the same floor, so that basically shatters any trust I have in picking stuff up since I sacrifice so much time or inventory space everytime this happens why are key items so far from their puzzle location it makes navigation annoying.
The point I made about RE1's map is about distinct looking rooms, and the contained structure of it. It's not a sprawling labyrinth that reaches up 9 floors. It's two floors, with 20 or 30 spaces and that's it. That was my only point. No where in the video did I say it couldn't be improved. It was a general example for those specific points. The RE2R map adding a stated objective is an addition I agree with, and the map highlighting rooms that you haven't fully explored is also excellent. You're focusing too much on exactly which resident evil I'm referencing.
As for your complaint about picking up the fake shield but not being able to use it in that exact room, having to put it away and wait to use it later... I don't know, that's just a weird thing to be bothered by. That's the entire survival horror genre. The map is the puzzle. You find things in one room and they're used in another. Big deal. It happens in RE2R too.
I hate haven't no clue of what im supposed to do! I fucking hate that feeling! Im not saying that this game should have mission markers but a journal will be nice
this game was fucking amazing
Totally respectable.
And I 100% agree about the immersive sim aspect.
What makes immersive sim to me is more along deus ex lines. Where you could potentially go through the whole game, never fire a shot, never kill anything, or he'll never even hack anything. Options. It's all about options.
From everything I've seen about this game, you don't really have options.
Probably because the concept of immersive sim wasn't a thing during system shock 1.
This game is basically a perfect remake, go play the original, dont like it? You won't like this one either.A
And i this is how i think remakes should be.
I just finished the game. I agree that some elements could have been better but overall I enjoyed it. My two biggest gripes 1. The map and all the backtracking became tedious. 2. The objectives - OMG I had to read several articles and visit countless forums to figure out where to go or what to do next. Most of the audio logs gave little clue as to how you're supposed to tackle things or in what order. I'm fine with open exploring but as you implied - a reminder or a beacon or SOMETHING would be a godsend for this game.
Same here. And I share your sentiment. I definitely wouldn't have finished this without help from the internet 😃. I liked the first few levels, but eventually I was just lost and tired, so I dug up some guides to get through the rest.
Of course you didn't like it to no one's surprise (even if it's completely faithful to the original)
Because It's not doom eternal😂
Eventhough it has the weakpoint system in form of appropriate ammo
& Did I mention the game caters mostly to hardcore gamers, Remember when Under the Mayo used to be one (when it came to doom)
Yeah, it's ok. Everything you critize (except for dumb AI) is to add to the feeling of beign alone and lost and not knowing what to do, basically it's all made to make you suffer, and fans of SS love that :) I played in max difficulty except for time limit and I loved it
I check into some of the original and it seems to have better environmental variety and it actually has a way to take notes of what your objectives are. I'm really surprised they didn't carry that over.
You're a fool, Mayo. The game is a faithful update of the 1994 original, hence many of its oldskool quirks.
Also, the cyberspace FOV slider works just fine as long as you hit T to apply the setting. And you get a Cyberspace "spring" upgrade on level 3 or something.
You can use the mimic ability to roll yourself through an opening in the window to get into a room?? I never freaking realized, holy shit. Prey is amazing. Still find it funny how it took me three attempts and a conscious effort to really dive into the game until it clicked and i started to adore it
I've backed this game in 2017.
Most of your critics are valid.
I was all in for the upgrade of the gameplay, even for the global design of the station for the remake but unfortunately the devs decided to listen to those who didn't want that.
I had to suffer the same problem with Elite Dangerous which is plagued with game design problem due to old fart who doesn't want to improve the gameplay.
I don't even like that much the de graphical choice from the dev to have this bitmap look.
Buty still, i'm enjoying the game and glad I supported it.
System Shock 2 really improved the way your objectives are listed, and was overall a much better game (wich still hold on today thanks to the modding community). I hope there will be a remake of this one too but with more improvements.
PS : OMG how right you are about the recycler...
It's really a good feeling in my opinion going back to older times with no hand holding and you spending mins or hours figuring out stuff. Fresh air oddly. Plus I really like the graphics
4:43 you have tons of options which you left blank in your hotbar.
I tried to play through System Shock a few years ago (never having played the originals), and I dropped off after a few hours due to a lot of what you mentioned. I've been gaming since 1990, so I'm certainly used to the trappings of old design, but I think this one requires some nostalgia and inside knowledge to get through. Or at least it helps a lot.
Sounds like the remake here just isn't for me. Oh well, that's OK. It looks like they committed to their vision.
Dude, try it for yourself. This guy's a contrarian hack.
@@keelyourshelffr, he really ought to stick to shooters that require less than 3 brain cells
I dropped it after 30 minutes. Clearly, it requires a LOT of patience and commitment. I don't know why I should invest so much into a game that never gave me a reason to care about it in the first place.
7:00 "you don't understand X"
And I don't care what you think buddy
They should have brought the respawning system from System Shock 2 to the Remake, in System Shock 2 it's the same but if you respawn you lose few Nanites (the games currency).
I agree with most of your points Mayo. I think Nightdive stuck a bit too much with the design of the old System Shock when doing the remake, instead of taking just the good parts and improving them, then replacing everything else with something more fun. The original System Shock had that repetitive design partly because of the hardware limitations, which is not a concern these days. This kind of shows that Nightdive have a lot of experience with porting old games to new hardware, but not so much in designing new gameplay on their own.
As some one who absolutely adores the original game i can say the main thing thats keeping me away (i played the Beta demo) are the animations, like, i get it, i just think they could've been a little snappier, especially the Melee combat, it felt floaty and hard to know when you'd hit things
Yeah combat feels whimpy in general. I think there's definitely some good challenge to be had. it's just not that satisfying.