You need to start by centering all the butterflies. Warm the motor. Back off all the idle stops and disconnect the linkage to each side. Then loosen the Allen screws on each throttle blade. Lightly tap each butterfly so it is completely closed. Then carefully tighten each butterfly. Go back and check your work. Now carefully connect linkage side to side setting the butterfly air gap (.004" using a feeler gauge!). Now you have a place to start setting the idle setting. Next you need to flow the barrel valve. Using a leakdown tester set it around 28-32. Now you can carefully connect the barrel valve linkage to the butterflies. After that you need to flow your idle and main bypass valves. Actually, after watching this video you should send the entire injection unit to Kinsler and have them do it for you. Hope this helps.
Your throttle body butterflys and the linkage between the sides need to be re-rranged such that when opening they mirror side to side. Currently they appear to be both opening clockwise when looking from the front of the motor, which means your lefthand bank injectors are on the upward opening side of the butterly and your righthand bank are opening on the downward opening side of the butterfly. This leads to part throttle power and idle problems as the airflow through the intake port and across the injecters has completley different charactristics on the left bank compared to the right bank. Also if you run the motor like this the only time both banks will get the same air/fuel loads will be at wide open throttle, at every other part throttle position the left and right bank cylinders will be different in power output and therefore part throttle driveability, very common with mechanical ITB systems if run like this.
I like your theory and I know nothing about this stuff but can't seem to imagine how the linkage between the two sides could work when they will be either expanding or decreasing the gap when operating opposite/symmetrically? 🤷♂️ it's probably really simple and I'm overthinking it but none the less very interested in your theory
That is a real pain in the ass to get right (I did ALL of mine counter rotating). SUPER important for street use or part throttle in a race car. Probably not as big a deal in this drag application...
Set up a ton of these on Sprint Cars. Cleaning after every race was a must, alcohol is corrosive if you let it sit there for even a week. We pickled them down at the end of race night and cleaned all nozzles and filters on Tuesdays. Tested barrel valve adjustment weekly and changed high and low side pills as weather/tracks needed.
Alcohol itself isn't corrosive. But the fact that it draws moisture from the air (pure alcohol is "hygroscopic") means it becomes a water-alcohol mixture and _that's_ corrosive.
I assembled hundreds of those units when i worked for Kinsler in the 80s. What I see missing on that unit is Spring screw linkage that we used. That would allow adjustment between pairs of butterflies for better sync.
@@markdiehl8050 Butterflies might have to be reclocked on shafts to get correct bore orientation. After running and cycling and reinstall a lot of parts seem to move around.
I fought enough Lucas McKay and Kinsler constant flows in my past on old GTP and CanAm cars > one sloppy heim joint was all it took to mess with you > Still have 2 paper copys of the Kinsler Handbook > A Must for ayone dealing with these systems
Indeed, I remember way back in the 70's as a kid helping/hindering someone setting up a Formula 5000. It was on a Holden V8 and it used 4 paired intake throttles. Each pair was independently adjustable. He used a paper to start and then set via a airflow meter you drop in the top of the trumpet and fine tuned the vacuum for each pair. Years later I borrowed his airflow meter to tune the idle after replacing some linkages on a 6 pack Aussie Chargers Webber carbs. I dont exactly remember what brand of injection it was Maybe Aunger? The one thing I do remember was that engine had throttle response like a light switch.
Having worked , back in the day, on a large number of sprint car, midget, Indy car motors and now the little one liter motor that my son and I run at Bonneville all with constant flow injection. These systems control fuel flow by controlling the fuel pressure and that is done by the barrel valve at low RPM and the return jet at higher RPM. Although the pump outlet flow is theoretically linear the pressure set by the main return jet is not, it can be calculated which you should do but I will not get into "how to" right now. The basic progression is to set the idle which is best done with an air flow meter on each inlet (most of the engines will have the ability to set each butterfly, the engine you have you can only adjust each bank) . Set the barrel valve for good tip in and throttle response but the barrel valve typically only controls fuel pressure to about 1/2 throttle, at full throttle the main return jet sets the pressure the size of the main return should be found as the jet that gives the best torque as that is the RPM that requires the most fuel but after the max torque RPM is reached the fuel flow going to the engine will increase faster than the horse power increases therefore at max RPM the engine is rich which means the high speed lean out return needs to be set to lower the fuel pressure so that less fuel is going to the engine and the fuel curve better matches the horse power curve which provides max HPs. Crude but it works. Constant flow fuel injection is used almost exclusively for engines that run at close to max HP and RPMs and things like idle and smooth operation at low speeds is not important. They don't work well on street driven engines, especially with methanol. Lot's of good info from Kinsler if you want to have a good source. BTW our little 1 liter (61 cu.in.) Bonneville engine makes 210 hp at 12,000 (3.44 hp/cu.in.) NA. Rex
There is so much to learn when it comes to mechanical injection. The “old timer” I work with has been doing them since the early 70s. Off camera, we are rebuilding quite a few old hilborn setups. My advice, use a modern style waterman pump, the old pumps are prone to failure. That being said, good luck! Oh, one more thing, having the ear of Don Enriquez helps. There are a few rare books from back in the day specifically for mechanical injection, I have read them many many times.
That pump in the video is as good as it gets these days. It is a Kinsler Tough Pump. Waterman went out of business and/or was bought out by Aeromotive and aren’t what they once were….
There’s no school like old school! I also have a friends in North Carolina one of which lives in Asheville but was lucky and went a long time without running water and power. My other friend and his family fared well but was prepared to live without power and water. We need to continue for everyone affected and pray for Florida!
When setting the throttle blades, just get it to idle and then use a Weber Redline Carburetor Synchronizer to adjust each to an equal number. Much easier than measuring with paper and more accurate as you are measuring the air flow.
My Dad ran a 55 gasser back in the 60s. 327 hilborn injection. 550 Isky Lagara gear drive cam with a Vertex Magnito. Hard to.tune. they even un bolted the headers to look at the flame coming out.
Flow meter and vacuum gauges is how I set multiples like that my whole life. Worked every time. It's tricky, but like one guy said, close all the butterfly valves. Lock those rods and then all you gotta do is fine tune.
Hi Steve I have adjusted many multi butterfly systems and your ear is very good at hearing the difference's in the blade opening. Use a stethoscope or even a piece of tube to listen to each one you can really hear which needs to be adjusted.
Love 8-stack - dream is to build a Can-Am ZL-1 (on gasoline) for a hand-built McLaren M8-B replica - my retirement project soon (almost 62). Can't freakin' BELIEVE how much I'll get from this video - thanks a mil!
We used to use a dollar bill to set the butterflies. Loosen them all from the shaft, tap them all down to be snug in the bores, tighten them all up, adjust until you are just able to drag a dollar bill past the gap.
Steve, there are multi carb synchronizers that you can buy cheap! $20 range. Essentially an adjustable vacuum gauge so you can sync all of them evenly. I’d add a link to one I found but it won’t let me
I learned something today,awesome video always wondered how mechanical fuel injection worked and you talked about it in a way that I could totally understand, that return line jet and the fuel barrel totally get it now 👍
Spark plug indexing is also to align the electrode with the intake valve to help insure proper flame propagation. I have to admit that I have not heard of using it for clearance but, makes sense.
It would be cool if you had an o2 and egt sensor attached to each exhaust header:)...maybe you dont have to but when i was at SAMTEC in efi school they had it set up that way and could tune each cylinder perfectly...but reading spark plugs after each pull is good enough...i just thought it was cool that they had so much data to look at is all:)
With hillborn systems that I used to use in the past I would first set the butterflies all shut and make sure that they all opened up in sync and then simply use the idle settings screw to set the idle. And then once you get a steady idle use a unisink to micro adjust each throttle body.
He'll also want to confirm that the barrel valve is in the correct position as based on where the barrel is set will determine how rich or lean it is at idle and throughout the rest acceleration curve
How I always did it. The throttles shut and there is your reference point for all other throttle openings. PS - the barrel valve should just crack open at the exact same "time" the throttles do on the way to WFO.
Seems like synchronizing procedure on those throttle bodies would be similar to synchronizing Johnson/Evinrude Looper V6 & V8 carbs. The way I do it, is to take all idle stops off, and let all the blades close all the way, then lock down all the connection points. Then when you set your idle blade distance, all you have to do is adjust the first idle stop open till it idles where you want it. The paper idea is actually a better 'feeler gauge than a metal one, since it will conform to the shape of the throttle blade. Instead of being stiff like a metal feeler.
I was laughing watching you go thru setting up that manifold, I have an old Hilborn for SBC that I converted to EFI with a Speeduino ECM, been thru a good number of trials and tribulations with it and learned a ton. I'm happy you got it figured out, love the channel keep up the good work I learn something just about every episode.
I love the sound of stacks on anything! Can barely hear them in your dyno room but experienced ears can hear that thrum. I had a V6 that sounded like a trumpet when the RPM went past 7k... who needs a shift-light when you got that kind of alarm!?
I started on modifies when I was only like 12 years old that’s like 1972. Dad’s car oldest brother driver. Good old hilborn back in the day. So cool to see.
Love this finally something close to our sprint car engines that I can relate to gotta love have nothing but 8 wires does it have a low speed an stumble valve and my thoughts and prayers go out to all those struggling with the hurricanes
My son builds dirt engines that run methanol at Buege Racing Engines in Burnett, WI and sets that style injection systems up by fuel ratios and air density and they are fast
Great video! Brought back some memories! As was said in the comments, I disconnected the left and right bank linkage. Then used a synchrometer at idle to adjust each of the banks throttle stop. To fine tune I had to adjust the butterflies for each cylinder. I was lucky though to have had EFI! lol. Thank you for the great video!
The barrel valve is pretty much your idle mixture. It shuts most of the fuel off to the injectors. As it opens it allows more fuel to flow to the injectors. The other valve in the system is normally a high speed lean out.
I know a lot of sprintcar owners/ tuners/ drivers. In the last 25 years they have managed to make them far more fuel efficient and responsive. To the point of using a litre a lap less! Even the oil stays clear instead of the inevitable milk tinge.
Now THAT is something i DO know a great deal about, except we run a Lucas metering unit instead of the Kinsler barrel vslve. We run these in 5.0 liter small block form in Lola T70s.Love them... ❤
hah, back in the early 70s, when I was still a punk kid, i spent a year on my aunts farm in rural NH, and their friends were running a sprint car, oval track racing. it was a bored/stroked old school SBC with mechanical fuel injection, 8 pack, burning methanol, straight pipe exhaust, magneto ignition, in the Super Modified class. they were the 2nd slowest car in the class, but they were having fun. no transmission, no clutch, just an in-out box, and adjust the gears in the rear axle (not a differential) ... I played jr gopher on their pit crew that year. This was at Star Speedway in Epping NH.
Scotch tape is about 0.002" so if you need to add an exact amount of thickness to something to check clearance it works well. You can keep stacking it.
Before you tube and the Internet,, I learned about pistons closing the spark plug gap the hard way. Not knowing any better, I pulled the heads and enlarged the notch in the piston.
We use Hilborn mechanical fuel injection on our sprint cars. Spend many hours adjusting and cleaning after every race. Love them . Currently looking for old big Block mechanical injectors for my vintage sprint car project.
Steve, they make a tool for motorcycle's that might work on that injection style, it messures the VAC flow. you would need Two of these Fuel Vacuum Carburetor Synchronizer Carb Tools sync 4 Gauge Kits with Hose Tool , Just need to drill & tap the intake. give them to the owner to keep with his engine. This works great on my 1971 CB75-Four Honda, no guessing
It is obvious you already know about this stuff! I should have known! I love to learn from you, it is always a journey! You need to go play with vintage road race cars, they can be a challenge. That is where I learned about mechanical injection stuff, it is cool!
Great video . I love mechanical fuel injection with alcohol , especially when on top of a blower. Good comments below about linkage. The tool is a Uni-Sync. Thanks.
I've synchronized multi carb setups by using the idle vacuum port. And attach a hose filled with a light oil like trans fluid. Then attach hose to 2 of the carbs and make a loop on hose so that the oil is sitting on the bottom of the loop. Start engine and adjust throttle plate so that the oil in hose as at the same level. Then adjust all carbs/throttle bodies based on one carb/throttle body.
You can use a plate with a hole in it, use a second plate to fill the hole. Then use a valve spring to connect the 2 plates together. You will have a visual indication on the vacuum. You have a nice metal shop, it could be fast and dirty to build.
My B&U also had two of the three butterflies loose between the shaft half’s, that kept giving me a hanging idle. However every time I measured them they were same. So I backed everything off including the thumb screws, loosened all 9 blade screws, forced everything closed, to center the blades in the bore, tightened all 9 screws back up, and set the thumb screws for a base idle. Boom. Started up and was so low it almost shuts off… lol
Oh man. I had three, two barrel Webers DCOE's on my old Z. Having good linkage is very important. Going through it all is the hardest part. Once it's in the car you need to make sure the bump stop is set for wide open throttle. You don't want the 300 pound gorilla bending the linkage. Yeah to set the idle you need a way to measure how much air per cyl. Many years ago the tool was 45$.
While we’re on this old school stuff, the head of the bolt on the float bowls of a carburetor is the perfect height to set the float height with! Now you know! No extra tools needed
I have only used mechanical injection on early water cooled VW's. 1.7l. Maybe less or more litres. I wish I had this video earlier. I understand what you're doing.
People don't know how good they have it lol .. I remember having to look thru the ol MSD chip box every time you wanted to change leave, shift or limit rpm.
The have a device called a uni-syn !!!!! You kept almost saying the word I was wanting to call you. Its a synchronization tool that reads air flow at each butterfly at the throat with a sealed base which reads as a vacuum through a tube with a floating ball in a clear tube that has gradient marks giving a reading of inches of mercury as air flows pass ball in tube. But this enables to match each other better than a feeler gauge, feeler gauge is only good for initial butterfly setting but not as accurate. But the uni- syn is more accurate because it is based off entire perimeter of butterfly and what air is flowing through the uni-syn flow meter. Once each adjusted is adjusted and tuned then their is one link that you adjust that keeps them all together from that point and keeps them synchronized. But like the way you went around for the initial adjustment on butterflies. Butterflies are actually tighter at shafts verses out at the sealing surface perpendicular to the center line of throttleshaft. The plates are actually kind of oblong. Awesome video Steve a love the way you work through things... Good mind
On webbers, we used a vaccum gauge…it attaches to the velocity stack and the engine “sucks” on it while at iddle…the goal was to make about tue same vaccum at each “ITB” once set, the we would focus on tunning fuel and timming
I was asked what our 1 liter engine is. It is a 2000 Kawasaki 4 cylinder 1000 cc , built by Engine Dynamics, Petaluma, CA. Stock cams, JE pistons, 15:1 compression, Carrillo rods, custom headers , Kinsler constant flow injectors, 2 inch dia butterflies, MSD "Midget" ignition, runs on methnol.
My friend (a perfectionist) drive his blueprinted Ford 302 nascar engine with four Weber carburators, and got fhose numbers. Put in his DeThomaso Phantera.
I have a stack injection setup I bought for my car, but I'm in the planning process of fitting Injectors to it to convert it to EFI. Ideal distance and angle to the inlet valve seems controversial in an ideal situation, let alone the space restrictions I'm dealing with. Some words of educated experience would be welcome if anyone has been down this road before. The engine is an old combo, methanol 383 SBC, Brodix track 1, 23 degree heads, 13.5 :1 comp, around 620bhp.
After throttle is set you run all the stops up so the idle is not dependent on that link arm and will for ever be set an forget the idle where if no stops in play means as that link arm wears the idle would change. Set barrel valve at WOT so your getting max valve at WOT witch would have helped out your lean condition. As far as setting throttle blades you use a multi vacuum gauge sync 50$ amazon
The throttle blades screw holes may be just like Holley blades and are ablong and not perfectly round, wich are used to make adjustments for closing contact throttle blade position. Normally used to expose (less or more distance) to and from the idle feed transfer slots. You maybe able to loosen the set screws and get all of the blades at the same position (distance to the throttle bore).
Procedure is to back all the stops off, loosen all the blade screws, and gently tap each blade with a screwdriver handle to seat it. Then snug the blade screws back up and set the idle air gap.
@raykaufman7156 yes I figured everyone should get the jist, and maybe hard to explain to everyone. But yes that is exactly how to set all throttle plates exactly the same.
Great job mate. Single throttle per cyl will always show that funny little hump in the torque curve, like two peaks as such. And when you change the main you must change the high speed pressure setting. I’m not sure if you had a pill in the HS or just flat out. The IRL kinsler valve is a bit more tune able but the diaphragm HS are great value for money. :-)
Assembling an aircraft valve butterfly, I am required to use a gauge pin and have to center it on the butterfly. Other than a volumetric measurement, That's all I do.
we use flow meters and balance meters to set throttle plates, the paper idea will get ya close, look for an adjustment between the two stes of each bank
On sprint car engi especially very similar you set barrel valve with air pressure at valve around 16 to 18 at idle its been a while since I've done this so just thinking outlook awesome keep up the good work
I have used a leak down tester cap the return line and hook your leak down tester to the fuel in fitting and adjust the barrel valve to your desired setting.
Use code STEVEMORRIS50 to get 50% OFF your first Factor box plus 20% off your next month of orders at bit.ly/4807sCL!
You need to start by centering all the butterflies. Warm the motor. Back off all the idle stops and disconnect the linkage to each side. Then loosen the Allen screws on each throttle blade. Lightly tap each butterfly so it is completely closed. Then carefully tighten each butterfly. Go back and check your work. Now carefully connect linkage side to side setting the butterfly air gap (.004" using a feeler gauge!). Now you have a place to start setting the idle setting. Next you need to flow the barrel valve. Using a leakdown tester set it around 28-32. Now you can carefully connect the barrel valve linkage to the butterflies. After that you need to flow your idle and main bypass valves. Actually, after watching this video you should send the entire injection unit to Kinsler and have them do it for you. Hope this helps.
Your throttle body butterflys and the linkage between the sides need to be re-rranged such that when opening they mirror side to side. Currently they appear to be both opening clockwise when looking from the front of the motor, which means your lefthand bank injectors are on the upward opening side of the butterly and your righthand bank are opening on the downward opening side of the butterfly. This leads to part throttle power and idle problems as the airflow through the intake port and across the injecters has completley different charactristics on the left bank compared to the right bank. Also if you run the motor like this the only time both banks will get the same air/fuel loads will be at wide open throttle, at every other part throttle position the left and right bank cylinders will be different in power output and therefore part throttle driveability, very common with mechanical ITB systems if run like this.
So this guy knows his ishh
Humph. Nimrods.
I like your theory and I know nothing about this stuff but can't seem to imagine how the linkage between the two sides could work when they will be either expanding or decreasing the gap when operating opposite/symmetrically? 🤷♂️ it's probably really simple and I'm overthinking it but none the less very interested in your theory
@@zetagynz 1 side points up the other down to reverse the direction the blades open on the few of these ive seen
That is a real pain in the ass to get right (I did ALL of mine counter rotating). SUPER important for street use or part throttle in a race car. Probably not as big a deal in this drag application...
Set up a ton of these on Sprint Cars. Cleaning after every race was a must, alcohol is corrosive if you let it sit there for even a week. We pickled them down at the end of race night and cleaned all nozzles and filters on Tuesdays. Tested barrel valve adjustment weekly and changed high and low side pills as weather/tracks needed.
Alcohol itself isn't corrosive. But the fact that it draws moisture from the air (pure alcohol is "hygroscopic") means it becomes a water-alcohol mixture and _that's_ corrosive.
I assembled hundreds of those units when i worked for Kinsler in the 80s. What I see missing on that unit is Spring screw linkage that we used. That would allow adjustment between pairs of butterflies for better sync.
@@markdiehl8050 Butterflies might have to be reclocked on shafts to get correct bore orientation. After running and cycling and reinstall a lot of parts seem to move around.
I fought enough Lucas McKay and Kinsler constant flows in my past on old GTP and CanAm cars > one sloppy heim joint was all it took to mess with you > Still have 2 paper copys of the Kinsler Handbook > A Must for ayone dealing with these systems
Indeed, I remember way back in the 70's as a kid helping/hindering someone setting up a Formula 5000. It was on a Holden V8 and it used 4 paired intake throttles. Each pair was independently adjustable. He used a paper to start and then set via a airflow meter you drop in the top of the trumpet and fine tuned the vacuum for each pair. Years later I borrowed his airflow meter to tune the idle after replacing some linkages on a 6 pack Aussie Chargers Webber carbs. I dont exactly remember what brand of injection it was Maybe Aunger? The one thing I do remember was that engine had throttle response like a light switch.
Is Chuck related to you?
You need to balance the injection vacuum downstream of the throttle plates Steve!!!
Having worked , back in the day, on a large number of sprint car, midget, Indy car motors and now the little one liter motor that my son and I run at Bonneville all with constant flow injection. These systems control fuel flow by controlling the fuel pressure and that is done by the barrel valve at low RPM and the return jet at higher RPM. Although the pump outlet flow is theoretically linear the pressure set by the main return jet is not, it can be calculated which you should do but I will not get into "how to" right now. The basic progression is to set the idle which is best done with an air flow meter on each inlet (most of the engines will have the ability to set each butterfly, the engine you have you can only adjust each bank) . Set the barrel valve for good tip in and throttle response but the barrel valve typically only controls fuel pressure to about 1/2 throttle, at full throttle the main return jet sets the pressure the size of the main return should be found as the jet that gives the best torque as that is the RPM that requires the most fuel but after the max torque RPM is reached the fuel flow going to the engine will increase faster than the horse power increases therefore at max RPM the engine is rich which means the high speed lean out return needs to be set to lower the fuel pressure so that less fuel is going to the engine and the fuel curve better matches the horse power curve which provides max HPs. Crude but it works.
Constant flow fuel injection is used almost exclusively for engines that run at close to max HP and RPMs and things like idle and smooth operation at low speeds is not important. They don't work well on street driven engines, especially with methanol. Lot's of good info from Kinsler if you want to have a good source. BTW our little 1 liter (61 cu.in.) Bonneville engine makes 210 hp at 12,000 (3.44 hp/cu.in.) NA.
Rex
Thanks for sharing your excellent knowledge on this type of fuel injection set-up...👍🇬🇧.
Holy Sh!te 1.0 L 210hp ls insane!!
What is the 1 liter engine you run
Really interesting to hear about your setup.
There is so much to learn when it comes to mechanical injection. The “old timer” I work with has been doing them since the early 70s. Off camera, we are rebuilding quite a few old hilborn setups. My advice, use a modern style waterman pump, the old pumps are prone to failure. That being said, good luck! Oh, one more thing, having the ear of Don Enriquez helps. There are a few rare books from back in the day specifically for mechanical injection, I have read them many many times.
That pump in the video is as good as it gets these days. It is a Kinsler Tough Pump. Waterman went out of business and/or was bought out by Aeromotive and aren’t what they once were….
Looks like you could use "carb sticks" (think motorcycle) to set equal vacuum per cylinder at idle
Yes I set my cb750f with mercury gauge set set 3rd carb 1 2 4 adjusted for cfm
Use to remove linkages.
Set throttle blades then attach linkage.
There’s no school like old school!
I also have a friends in North Carolina one of which lives in Asheville but was lucky and went a long time without running water and power. My other friend and his family fared well but was prepared to live without power and water. We need to continue for everyone affected and pray for Florida!
I've always loved velocity stack race motor builds!!!
Whether they work or are just for looks, I love them!
When setting the throttle blades, just get it to idle and then use a Weber Redline Carburetor Synchronizer to adjust each to an equal number. Much easier than measuring with paper and more accurate as you are measuring the air flow.
right answer
Chucks face said it all. I enjoyed a old school learning. Thanks from Rex
My Dad ran a 55 gasser back in the 60s. 327 hilborn injection. 550 Isky Lagara gear drive cam with a Vertex Magnito. Hard to.tune. they even un bolted the headers to look at the flame coming out.
Flow meter and vacuum gauges is how I set multiples like that my whole life. Worked every time. It's tricky, but like one guy said, close all the butterfly valves. Lock those rods and then all you gotta do is fine tune.
Hi Steve I have adjusted many multi butterfly systems and your ear is very good at hearing the difference's in the blade opening. Use a stethoscope or even a piece of tube to listen to each one you can really hear which needs to be adjusted.
Love 8-stack - dream is to build a Can-Am ZL-1 (on gasoline) for a hand-built McLaren M8-B replica - my retirement project soon (almost 62). Can't freakin' BELIEVE how much I'll get from this video - thanks a mil!
2:20 I've got a rev limiter chip in my 363ci '71 Maverick 😁 love these old school MSD 6AL boxes!
You can also torque-tune by varying the length of the intake trumpets. Shorter moves it to higher rpm. longer boosts low end torque.
We used to use a dollar bill to set the butterflies. Loosen them all from the shaft, tap them all down to be snug in the bores, tighten them all up, adjust until you are just able to drag a dollar bill past the gap.
Steve, there are multi carb synchronizers that you can buy cheap! $20 range. Essentially an adjustable vacuum gauge so you can sync all of them evenly. I’d add a link to one I found but it won’t let me
I learned something today,awesome video always wondered how mechanical fuel injection worked and you talked about it in a way that I could totally understand, that return line jet and the fuel barrel totally get it now 👍
Spark plug indexing is also to align the electrode with the intake valve to help insure proper flame propagation. I have to admit that I have not heard of using it for clearance but, makes sense.
It would be cool if you had an o2 and egt sensor attached to each exhaust header:)...maybe you dont have to but when i was at SAMTEC in efi school they had it set up that way and could tune each cylinder perfectly...but reading spark plugs after each pull is good enough...i just thought it was cool that they had so much data to look at is all:)
reminds me of sinc'ing the Mikuni rack on the KZ1000 seems insignificant but really crisps it up. The constant flow is crazy
you set the barrel valve with a leak down gauge
With hillborn systems that I used to use in the past I would first set the butterflies all shut and make sure that they all opened up in sync and then simply use the idle settings screw to set the idle. And then once you get a steady idle use a unisink to micro adjust each throttle body.
He'll also want to confirm that the barrel valve is in the correct position as based on where the barrel is set will determine how rich or lean it is at idle and throughout the rest acceleration curve
How I always did it. The throttles shut and there is your reference point for all other throttle openings. PS - the barrel valve should just crack open at the exact same "time" the throttles do on the way to WFO.
A masterclass in troubleshooting and problem solving. I appreciate your effort and sharing.
Not using a $50 syncronometer To quickly even there throttle plates is not a "masterclass" when you are being charged by the hour.
Seems like synchronizing procedure on those throttle bodies would be similar to synchronizing Johnson/Evinrude Looper V6 & V8 carbs. The way I do it, is to take all idle stops off, and let all the blades close all the way, then lock down all the connection points. Then when you set your idle blade distance, all you have to do is adjust the first idle stop open till it idles where you want it. The paper idea is actually a better 'feeler gauge than a metal one, since it will conform to the shape of the throttle blade. Instead of being stiff like a metal feeler.
My old man's workbench still says "Loopers beware, Crossflow Country" across the top shelf...probably been there 35 years.
I have four identical clamp-on dial indicators. They tell me when the butterflies move and by how much.
“America is built on speed, Hot, nasty, badass speed.” Eleanor Roosevelt 🇺🇸
She lived her life a quarter mile at a time
2nd Throatus behind Nancy Reagan, the THROATUS GOAT🎉
😅
By speed i don't think she meant all people were motorhead...
"No replacement for displacement" -Davey Crocket
I was laughing watching you go thru setting up that manifold, I have an old Hilborn for SBC that I converted to EFI with a Speeduino ECM, been thru a good number of trials and tribulations with it and learned a ton. I'm happy you got it figured out, love the channel keep up the good work I learn something just about every episode.
I love the sound of stacks on anything! Can barely hear them in your dyno room but experienced ears can hear that thrum. I had a V6 that sounded like a trumpet when the RPM went past 7k... who needs a shift-light when you got that kind of alarm!?
I started on modifies when I was only like 12 years old that’s like 1972. Dad’s car oldest brother driver. Good old hilborn back in the day. So cool to see.
That sbc makes amazing power..whats the specs on that guy?
Love this finally something close to our sprint car engines that I can relate to gotta love have nothing but 8 wires does it have a low speed an stumble valve and my thoughts and prayers go out to all those struggling with the hurricanes
I can't believe those initial numbers, that thing is spicy.......no wonder those sprint cars fly 😮
My son builds dirt engines that run methanol at Buege Racing Engines in Burnett, WI and sets that style injection systems up by fuel ratios and air density and they are fast
Whats up Wisconsin friend. My dad had a 427 fe side oiler built at buege for our 67 fastback in waupun!
@Wreckedekcoupe Burnett, Wisconsin my son has been there a long time
Great video! Brought back some memories! As was said in the comments, I disconnected the left and right bank linkage. Then used a synchrometer at idle to adjust each of the banks throttle stop. To fine tune I had to adjust the butterflies for each cylinder. I was lucky though to have had EFI! lol. Thank you for the great video!
The barrel valve is pretty much your idle mixture. It shuts most of the fuel off to the injectors. As it opens it allows more fuel to flow to the injectors. The other valve in the system is normally a high speed lean out.
I know a lot of sprintcar owners/ tuners/ drivers. In the last 25 years they have managed to make them far more fuel efficient and responsive. To the point of using a litre a lap less! Even the oil stays clear instead of the inevitable milk tinge.
100% that is all due to better pumps, higher pressure, finer nozzles, better distribution & and better atomization!
I don't know what cubic inch that engine is but for not having boost Orr nitrous 800+ hp is a bad boy. Very nice.
Now THAT is something i DO know a great deal about, except we run a Lucas metering unit instead of the Kinsler barrel vslve. We run these in 5.0 liter small block form in Lola T70s.Love them... ❤
hah, back in the early 70s, when I was still a punk kid, i spent a year on my aunts farm in rural NH, and their friends were running a sprint car, oval track racing. it was a bored/stroked old school SBC with mechanical fuel injection, 8 pack, burning methanol, straight pipe exhaust, magneto ignition, in the Super Modified class. they were the 2nd slowest car in the class, but they were having fun. no transmission, no clutch, just an in-out box, and adjust the gears in the rear axle (not a differential) ... I played jr gopher on their pit crew that year. This was at Star Speedway in Epping NH.
Scotch tape is about 0.002" so if you need to add an exact amount of thickness to something to check clearance it works well. You can keep stacking it.
The barrel will progress with throttle input, all done!
Before you tube and the Internet,, I learned about pistons closing the spark plug gap the hard way. Not knowing any better, I pulled the heads and enlarged the notch in the piston.
@Steve Morris - I remember there being ‘idle’ screws😊 on carburetors to control fuel at low rpms.
Start at .0025 and don't move it for anything other then sise to side balance. Barrel valve start 18-20%. Add or remove fuel to set final idle speed
We use Hilborn mechanical fuel injection on our sprint cars. Spend many hours adjusting and cleaning after every race. Love them . Currently looking for old big Block mechanical injectors for my vintage sprint car project.
Call Enders. That's who ended up with my 3" Crower. He's a long time supermod engine builder, so I'm sure he has a few more lying around...😂
now you working on something i know a little about and i use to use a DOLLAR bill as a filler gauge.
Finally 🙏an answer to my prayers! Between an injected SBC and a Screw Blown Hemi, two of the greatest things ever created!!!
Steve, they make a tool for motorcycle's that might work on that injection style, it messures the VAC flow. you would need Two of these Fuel Vacuum Carburetor Synchronizer Carb Tools sync 4 Gauge Kits with Hose Tool , Just need to drill & tap the intake. give them to the owner to keep with his engine. This works great on my 1971 CB75-Four Honda, no guessing
It is obvious you already know about this stuff! I should have known! I love to learn from you, it is always a journey! You need to go play with vintage road race cars, they can be a challenge. That is where I learned about mechanical injection stuff, it is cool!
You need a vacuum synchronizer so you can adjust each throttle body individually while it's running to get the same vacuum on each one.
Leak the barrel valve down to 24% and that’s a real good starting point.
Great video . I love mechanical fuel injection with alcohol , especially when on top of a blower. Good comments below about linkage. The tool is a Uni-Sync. Thanks.
I still have a few msd that takes a chip with the 2 step with a chip an a box of chips 💯🇺🇲🦅🏁 let's kick it old school 🏫😂
airflow clock or vacuum clock is used to sync carburators on multicarb setup on motorcycles.
It does a heck of a different to have them proper synced!
I wonder if anyone has tried a stepper motor on the barrel valve? Would likely be illegal for race classes but would be easier to control the fuel.
I've synchronized multi carb setups by using the idle vacuum port. And attach a hose filled with a light oil like trans fluid. Then attach hose to 2 of the carbs and make a loop on hose so that the oil is sitting on the bottom of the loop. Start engine and adjust throttle plate so that the oil in hose as at the same level. Then adjust all carbs/throttle bodies based on one carb/throttle body.
Used to run this setup on my sprint car. Start with .003 blade gap and 2psi fp!
You can use a plate with a hole in it, use a second plate to fill the hole. Then use a valve spring to connect the 2 plates together. You will have a visual indication on the vacuum. You have a nice metal shop, it could be fast and dirty to build.
My B&U also had two of the three butterflies loose between the shaft half’s, that kept giving me a hanging idle. However every time I measured them they were same.
So I backed everything off including the thumb screws, loosened all 9 blade screws, forced everything closed, to center the blades in the bore, tightened all 9 screws back up, and set the thumb screws for a base idle.
Boom. Started up and was so low it almost shuts off… lol
Every Mech Fuel System I Ever Worked On Started With A Barrel Valve Leak Down Check for Idle Set up...
Oh man. I had three, two barrel Webers DCOE's on my old Z. Having good linkage is very important. Going through it all is the hardest part. Once it's in the car you need to make sure the bump stop is set for wide open throttle. You don't want the 300 pound gorilla bending the linkage. Yeah to set the idle you need a way to measure how much air per cyl. Many years ago the tool was 45$.
air also bypasses the blades via the injector nozzle, thats wat that little hole if for just above the throttle plate.
Look up vw dual carb sync, vacuum gauge sitting on top of
While we’re on this old school stuff, the head of the bolt on the float bowls of a carburetor is the perfect height to set the float height with! Now you know! No extra tools needed
Thanks for the video, hit at right time as I'm thinking about using one on my SBC.😊
I have only used mechanical injection on early water cooled VW's. 1.7l. Maybe less or more litres. I wish I had this video earlier. I understand what you're doing.
we used to fold a note paper that was a 1/2" wide to make it a 1/4" wide re. .004 thou thick to set the butterflies equal.
People don't know how good they have it lol .. I remember having to look thru the ol MSD chip box every time you wanted to change leave, shift or limit rpm.
Transition pill for that dip. You can also rotate the barrel valve slightly to lean the whole mixture curve. That's if it's rich all the way.
On a bike to sync the buttery there will be an adjustment screw with a spring to hold it. Even a 1/16 turn will make a difference to idle.
I'd like to know some of the specs on the engine, 18 deg, cubic inch ECT. Nothing to give away any secrets but a general idea.
Always thought that setup is super slick
Beautiful piece. I love simple mechanical old school.
it takes about 80 cfm with a 2 bbl carb to idle so i would say around 10 to 15 cfm per cyl is needed to work
The have a device called a uni-syn !!!!! You kept almost saying the word I was wanting to call you. Its a synchronization tool that reads air flow at each butterfly at the throat with a sealed base which reads as a vacuum through a tube with a floating ball in a clear tube that has gradient marks giving a reading of inches of mercury as air flows pass ball in tube. But this enables to match each other better than a feeler gauge, feeler gauge is only good for initial butterfly setting but not as accurate. But the uni- syn is more accurate because it is based off entire perimeter of butterfly and what air is flowing through the uni-syn flow meter. Once each adjusted is adjusted and tuned then their is one link that you adjust that keeps them all together from that point and keeps them synchronized. But like the way you went around for the initial adjustment on butterflies. Butterflies are actually tighter at shafts verses out at the sealing surface perpendicular to the center line of throttleshaft. The plates are actually kind of oblong. Awesome video Steve a love the way you work through things... Good mind
Gene Adams / Hilborn .Southern Cal.
On webbers, we used a vaccum gauge…it attaches to the velocity stack and the engine “sucks” on it while at iddle…the goal was to make about tue same vaccum at each “ITB” once set, the we would focus on tunning fuel and timming
I was asked what our 1 liter engine is. It is a 2000 Kawasaki 4 cylinder 1000 cc , built by Engine Dynamics, Petaluma, CA. Stock cams, JE pistons, 15:1 compression, Carrillo rods, custom headers , Kinsler constant flow injectors, 2 inch dia butterflies, MSD "Midget" ignition, runs on methnol.
My friend (a perfectionist) drive his blueprinted Ford 302 nascar engine with four Weber carburators, and got fhose numbers.
Put in his DeThomaso Phantera.
I have a stack injection setup I bought for my car, but I'm in the planning process of fitting Injectors to it to convert it to EFI. Ideal distance and angle to the inlet valve seems controversial in an ideal situation, let alone the space restrictions I'm dealing with. Some words of educated experience would be welcome if anyone has been down this road before. The engine is an old combo, methanol 383 SBC, Brodix track 1, 23 degree heads, 13.5 :1 comp, around 620bhp.
when I used to set up, mechanical fuel injection for diesel, I would always set the linkages using a dial indicator to be precise.
A carb synch tool like for bike carbs would probably help get those throttle bodies synched up and flowing evenly.
After throttle is set you run all the stops up so the idle is not dependent on that link arm and will for ever be set an forget the idle where if no stops in play means as that link arm wears the idle would change. Set barrel valve at WOT so your getting max valve at WOT witch would have helped out your lean condition. As far as setting throttle blades you use a multi vacuum gauge sync 50$ amazon
The throttle blades screw holes may be just like Holley blades and are ablong and not perfectly round, wich are used to make adjustments for closing contact throttle blade position. Normally used to expose (less or more distance) to and from the idle feed transfer slots. You maybe able to loosen the set screws and get all of the blades at the same position (distance to the throttle bore).
Procedure is to back all the stops off, loosen all the blade screws, and gently tap each blade with a screwdriver handle to seat it. Then snug the blade screws back up and set the idle air gap.
@raykaufman7156 yes I figured everyone should get the jist, and maybe hard to explain to everyone. But yes that is exactly how to set all throttle plates exactly the same.
Individual o2 then if you know fuel at idle you can adjust each blade to be exact.
Hillborn fuel injection ,Lake Forest California ,they have been doing mechanical fuel injection since the early 50s .
You need to set the butterfly’s once the intake is heat soaked. Or the left bank will open once it heats up
I run mechanical injected nitro on my landspeed monza
You would also need to know the manifold vacuum at idle to calculate the airflow flow rate.
Great job mate.
Single throttle per cyl will always show that funny little hump in the torque curve, like two peaks as such.
And when you change the main you must change the high speed pressure setting.
I’m not sure if you had a pill in the HS or just flat out. The IRL kinsler valve is a bit more tune able but the diaphragm HS are great value for money. :-)
My Dad ran that back in 70s cool stuff thanks Steve
Assembling an aircraft valve butterfly, I am required to use a gauge pin and have to center it on the butterfly. Other than a volumetric measurement, That's all I do.
I remember when I was setting points and the distributor we use the vanilla fine. That’s when we had to do it in a pinch you got it.
we use flow meters and balance meters to set throttle plates, the paper idea will get ya close, look for an adjustment between the two stes of each bank
It is called a Un,ison. you sit it on the top of each T B and read the Vacuum. Edelbrock sells them.
On sprint car engi especially very similar you set barrel valve with air pressure at valve around 16 to 18 at idle its been a while since I've done this so just thinking outlook awesome keep up the good work
I have used a leak down tester cap the return line and hook your leak down tester to the fuel in fitting and adjust the barrel valve to your desired setting.
You need what’s called a unison for checking flow from individual carburetors or throttle bodies designed for the original SU and Webber’s