It's only an advantage if the drawing has metric dimensions. I actually prefer metric functionally, but I still don't have an intuitive sense of whether 20 microns of error is a little or a lot.
@@Clough42 It's rather helpful if you don't have a DRO and half the centre finder's diameter is a convenient round number of turns of the hand wheel. My Starrett edge finder has a 6mm tip that is a very convenient two whole turns of the wheel....and I'll leave you to ponder who thought that 1.5mm/turn was in any way convenient for a handwheel *facepalm*
Reading the clearpath tuning warning diaglogue box "the following behaviour is normal: High pitched squeals, Low-pitched grunts..." sounds like an interesting Saturday night !!
The oscillations in the torque could be due to backlash between the large pulley and the table motion, since the table itself is probably providing a significant proportion of the total system inertia.
The vibration would be due to the elasticity of the belt and the mass of the table. This forms a mass-spring system which can induce oscillation in a feedback system. Clearpath should have notch filters to account for such behaviour. This is very common with servo motors used with timing belts.
As a note - Carbide parting tips can be handed: Look at the part code of the inserts R marked inserts are user for when parting work pieces off cleanly without needing to worry about the razor lip you saw here L marked are for cleanly parting dross from a bar when the material in the chuck is the important part uncambered tips like you appear to have here are very useful as grooving tools
You may, however, find that they have a tendency to be pulled to one side by the unbalanced cut. Depends how rigid your lathe setup is. Also don't remember it being any cleaner on the side it was supposed to be....but maybe that's back to the wet noodle rigidity.
@@Cenedd this much is definately true - rigidity and tip height are the key with regards the cut surface - tool protrusion of the blade is often far too long: if you are parting at more than 0.6 x the work stock diameter you can have issues with the surface As for tip deflection, i can only speak from my own experience here but I never saw mor than a thou or so when parting off the thichnesses below 1.5" dia; this could have bee me on a decent machine, having always done my best to minimise backslack and gib slop, but if the surface needs to be better than that IMHO you would already be considering a facing op on the reverse of the part making it a moot point
@@bengrogan9710 I tried the longer MGMN variety and it wasn't so much the surface finish that bothered me as the side of the insert biting into the already cut edge of the work piece as you progress deeper into the cut. That said, there's nothing like a parting insert exploding to make you feel awake!
Looks good so far. Hate to be "that guy" but those set screws will end in disappointment. keys and keyways on servo motors don't work either because the constant rotation reversals Rock the key back and forth and will work loose. Clamping shaft collars are the correct solution
Set screws can work on lower load applications, but if they start to slip they can make a horrible mess. The same goes for keyways. I've seen servos using keyways where the keys were worn nearly round. Realistically for the number of hours this machine is going to get used, any fixing method will be fine.
@@LesNewell Hi Les yes, that has been my practical experience as well. Personally I would never opt for set screws in motion control the risk of them loosening and causing damage to the shaft is just to high. Besides it's not like James is on a shoe string budget 😉
Just as an alignment technicality whether critical for the application or not. When reworking a part in a lathe chuck which is expected to spin true to the new bore on a shaft. It is best practice to indicate the largest perpendicular machined plane surface first, then bring it on center with the set-tru feature to the OD of the pulley, ignoring the original bore. If anything, at least any runout is known rather than blind trust how the part sets against the jaw faces and the center is re-established. Nice project!
FYI, buried in the Teknic documentation it does say that for applications that turn one direction, or have infrequent reversals can use the keyway if desired. Applications with frequent and/or strong direction reversals should not use the keyway and should use clamp on pullies.
Is the X axis a rack & pinion drive or cable drive. I recently converted my Harig 618 to cable drive because I did not like the feel of the rack & pinion gear mesh. It is much smoother now. I plan to keep it a manual machine. Perhaps the gear mesh is causing the torque fluctuations on yours.
Nice work on the grinder. I tend to grind off the cut point if I do not want to damage the shaft or I will use a drill to dimple the shaft so the cut point has somewhere to bite into without damaging the shaft.
James, just curious if you’re familiar with the Tritan taper lock bushings for round shafts. We use them at my work and they work really well. Set screws leave a gouge on round shafts especially if they loosen. We only use set screws on D shafts. The taper lock style is all we use on round shafts anymore.
Love the project. Question for you on part 2. Did you consider mounting the Z axis motor on a 45 degree, so the gates belt could go around a removable 4th standoff?
I concur on the bore guages. The cheap ones I got never worked smoothly even after cleaning an deburring. I got a used set of Mitutoyos and after cleaning they work perfect every time.
Could a bit of slack in the timing belt be the cause of the torque fluctuations? Obviously it's hard to see on the video, but it did seem like the tension in the belt changed with the direction of the pulley (top slacker when moving right, bottom slacker when moving left).
He used a clockwise metric edge finder. He's in North America- not Australia. BTW, I know you are having fun but did you know that metric verses English edge finders is actually a thing? It would be how the radius is presented. Subtract the radius and you have the centerline of the spindle. From there you can accurately find placement of holes to be drilled or by adding the radius if a tool, how deep to make a cut into an edge.
@@marcg2233 it might be a TOT joke in some way. You even jumped a joke about the direction of the swirl which I injected the completely fictonal continent of Australia where the water in the toilet swirls the opposite direction. We old probably work a climb cutting verses conventional cutting reference in there too. But I just wanted to inject that it really makes a difference in accuracy. Another fun fact is that most "affordable" or imported digital readouts default to metric and convert to the much better inch reading on the fly.
The content is awesome and very much appreciated. Keep the good work, and good luck with the new lathe, looking forward to the first working video with it.
I'm afraid you might need to work on that belt drive. When I play back the video in slomo, I can see the belt slack changing from top to bottom. The mass of the table and the slight give of the belt and the velocity tolerance that software allows means it's struggling to maintain that velocity. I imagine if you want to keep that velocity tolerance, you may have to mess around with various tensions on the belt to get it to cooperate. Provide more rigidity. Also, don't overlook using idler bearings (ball bearings as idler pulleys). They also help with belt dynamics. EG, Use a slightly longer belt and then slightly hourglass its shape with dual idlers. Alternatively, a different pulley ratio may give the motor more mechanical advantage while having its RPM in a better range to provide the torque it needs to. Have fun. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes
You're probably also going to want to consider workpiece mass. IE you might get this instability resolved through tuning, only to find it reappear when a 10kg block of something is clamped down to the work surface. It might help to reduce your velocity tolerance, but that will likely affect surface finish.
Congrats on using metric :) For us in the non-inch world, we tend to remember that M6 is the smallest thread with a 1mm pitch, so the drill size is 5mm.
I have no experience with clearpath motors, but i do have some experience with servo motors and high jerk motion profiles usually result in high oscillations, especially in drive systems with some give in them. What type of motion profile do you intend to run?
My question is... Besides the monitor mount do any of the lathe, mill, surface grinder, engineer TH-cam guys/girls make anything besides tools or tools for making tools to make more tools?
I swear that faulty Parting insert geometry is not the same as the new one. It looks like the cutting edge is curved and the initial cutting back edge/tip near to the chuck is behind the centre point of the insert. So the cutter is trying to cut with the centre first. Maybe just how it looks on my tv??
James nice work, did we miss the controller setup? I’m working on a somewhat similar project and was hoping to see how you setup the clear core control. Thanx for your great lessons.
@@Clough42 I know but you use the half function anyway so it doesn't matter. It's maybe the least important thing to be metric in what you were doing so I thought it was funny
This channel has become insufferable. All you do is make crap for machines you already have. Why don't you try to make something that leaves the shop and makes someone's life better? You'd have more viewers and maybe make some revenue? That's what all of these machines were built to do- not stay perfectly clean and 'upgraded' for no reason other than to make more parts to get 'upgraded' again. I don't really care if you reply with some kind of "then don't watch" attitude response. I'm giving you good advice, you should take it.
Ahhh ... really? 30 minutes of you putting together something that you sent out to make anyway? I miss your old videos of small shop CNC actually making something. This could have been a 2 minute video. Really boring (NO pun intended).
Not an avid water but this seemed like a cool project. I found it to be interesting until you started measuring bores in microns, man… That makes you, your channel and this project super un-relatable. Just my opinion. Not trying to be offensive.
Kudos for finally using the metric edge finder. So many channels I watch just don't get the advantages.
It's only an advantage if the drawing has metric dimensions. I actually prefer metric functionally, but I still don't have an intuitive sense of whether 20 microns of error is a little or a lot.
@@Clough42 It's rather helpful if you don't have a DRO and half the centre finder's diameter is a convenient round number of turns of the hand wheel. My Starrett edge finder has a 6mm tip that is a very convenient two whole turns of the wheel....and I'll leave you to ponder who thought that 1.5mm/turn was in any way convenient for a handwheel *facepalm*
@@Ceneddit is left as an exercise for the reader to find why 1.5mm/turn is convenient 😂. Textbook.
Reading the clearpath tuning warning diaglogue box "the following behaviour is normal: High pitched squeals, Low-pitched grunts..." sounds like an interesting Saturday night !!
The metric edge finder is of course, 2.54 time more accurate
As it's showing in mm, wouldn't that be 25.4 times as accurate?
it would be but it's a 10 mm edge finder@@RNMSC
Only on metric edges!
@@raxxer1234No, on all edges, that’s why metric is better 🦆🦆
The hours and hours of modelling that has gone in to this.... don't think it has gone unnoticed. 🙂
The oscillations in the torque could be due to backlash between the large pulley and the table motion, since the table itself is probably providing a significant proportion of the total system inertia.
The vibration would be due to the elasticity of the belt and the mass of the table. This forms a mass-spring system which can induce oscillation in a feedback system. Clearpath should have notch filters to account for such behaviour. This is very common with servo motors used with timing belts.
As a note - Carbide parting tips can be handed: Look at the part code of the inserts
R marked inserts are user for when parting work pieces off cleanly without needing to worry about the razor lip you saw here
L marked are for cleanly parting dross from a bar when the material in the chuck is the important part
uncambered tips like you appear to have here are very useful as grooving tools
I was going to ask just that question. Thank you.
You may, however, find that they have a tendency to be pulled to one side by the unbalanced cut. Depends how rigid your lathe setup is. Also don't remember it being any cleaner on the side it was supposed to be....but maybe that's back to the wet noodle rigidity.
@@Cenedd this much is definately true - rigidity and tip height are the key with regards the cut surface - tool protrusion of the blade is often far too long: if you are parting at more than 0.6 x the work stock diameter you can have issues with the surface
As for tip deflection, i can only speak from my own experience here but I never saw mor than a thou or so when parting off the thichnesses below 1.5" dia; this could have bee me on a decent machine, having always done my best to minimise backslack and gib slop, but if the surface needs to be better than that IMHO you would already be considering a facing op on the reverse of the part making it a moot point
@@bengrogan9710 I tried the longer MGMN variety and it wasn't so much the surface finish that bothered me as the side of the insert biting into the already cut edge of the work piece as you progress deeper into the cut. That said, there's nothing like a parting insert exploding to make you feel awake!
Looks good so far. Hate to be "that guy" but those set screws will end in disappointment.
keys and keyways on servo motors don't work either because the constant rotation reversals
Rock the key back and forth and will work loose. Clamping shaft collars are the correct solution
You're absolutely right. For reversing loads, a clamp is tough to beat.
On the teknic website there is an article called securing mechanics to motor shafts. Those are examples of correct solutions
Set screws can work on lower load applications, but if they start to slip they can make a horrible mess. The same goes for keyways. I've seen servos using keyways where the keys were worn nearly round. Realistically for the number of hours this machine is going to get used, any fixing method will be fine.
@@LesNewell Hi Les yes, that has been my practical experience as well. Personally I would never opt for set screws in motion control
the risk of them loosening and causing damage to the shaft is just to high. Besides it's not like James is on a shoe string budget 😉
Just as an alignment technicality whether critical for the application or not. When reworking a part in a lathe chuck which is expected to spin true to the new bore on a shaft. It is best practice to indicate the largest perpendicular machined plane surface first, then bring it on center with the set-tru feature to the OD of the pulley, ignoring the original bore. If anything, at least any runout is known rather than blind trust how the part sets against the jaw faces and the center is re-established. Nice project!
Thanks for the deburr tip on the back of a part off using the vice jaws!! Love that, thank you 🙏
4:20 That's a tool I didn't know existed and I now want!
You may want it less when you find out the price tag and that you need a set of them to cover any range. Other than that, I want them too :D
FYI, buried in the Teknic documentation it does say that for applications that turn one direction, or have infrequent reversals can use the keyway if desired. Applications with frequent and/or strong direction reversals should not use the keyway and should use clamp on pullies.
I have had this project on my todo list about 2 weeks after I bought my manual surface grinder.
Is the X axis a rack & pinion drive or cable drive. I recently converted my Harig 618 to cable drive because I did not like the feel of the rack & pinion gear mesh. It is much smoother now. I plan to keep it a manual machine. Perhaps the gear mesh is causing the torque fluctuations on yours.
Is there enough mass / inertia in table + magnetic chuck, that adding large parts or parts + fixture will have "no" / minimal effect on the tuning ?
I always get so excited when I see you've posted a new video!
Nice work on the grinder.
I tend to grind off the cut point if I do not want to damage the shaft or I will use a drill to dimple the shaft so the cut point has somewhere to bite into without damaging the shaft.
I wonder if the surge was present with the manual crank also. You think maybe the belt is stretching? Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Curious as to why you just didn't turn the larger timing pulley around so that the grub screws where on the outside and not within the plate?
James, just curious if you’re familiar with the Tritan taper lock bushings for round shafts. We use them at my work and they work really well. Set screws leave a gouge on round shafts especially if they loosen. We only use set screws on D shafts. The taper lock style is all we use on round shafts anymore.
Love the project. Question for you on part 2. Did you consider mounting the Z axis motor on a 45 degree, so the gates belt could go around a removable 4th standoff?
Metric Edge finder! That’s the best! As always, Thanks James… 🙂
The flanges on timing pulleys are pressed on and can be removed for access.
I concur on the bore guages. The cheap ones I got never worked smoothly even after cleaning an deburring. I got a used set of Mitutoyos and after cleaning they work perfect every time.
Could a bit of slack in the timing belt be the cause of the torque fluctuations? Obviously it's hard to see on the video, but it did seem like the tension in the belt changed with the direction of the pulley (top slacker when moving right, bottom slacker when moving left).
Making great progress! Thanks again James!
The grub screws are called Dog point set screws/ grub screws.
Instead of a pry bar to set your belt tension, maybe use a belt jack? Something like a BJ10 from SupplyHouse.
So the very important question! Did you use a clockwise or counter-clockwise metric edge finder?
He used a clockwise metric edge finder. He's in North America- not Australia.
BTW, I know you are having fun but did you know that metric verses English edge finders is actually a thing? It would be how the radius is presented. Subtract the radius and you have the centerline of the spindle. From there you can accurately find placement of holes to be drilled or by adding the radius if a tool, how deep to make a cut into an edge.
@@sumduma55 I honestly thought it was an old tony joke.
@@marcg2233 it might be a TOT joke in some way. You even jumped a joke about the direction of the swirl which I injected the completely fictonal continent of Australia where the water in the toilet swirls the opposite direction. We old probably work a climb cutting verses conventional cutting reference in there too.
But I just wanted to inject that it really makes a difference in accuracy. Another fun fact is that most "affordable" or imported digital readouts default to metric and convert to the much better inch reading on the fly.
@@sumduma55 well thank you i've just learn something.
The content is awesome and very much appreciated. Keep the good work, and good luck with the new lathe, looking forward to the first working video with it.
I'm also an 1144 stress proof fan. Can stand hot or cold rolled, even if free!
The default for reamers use to be about 1/64". Thanx for the videos.
I'm thinking that you might want to add some retaining compound to lock the pulleys to the shafts...
I'm afraid you might need to work on that belt drive. When I play back the video in slomo, I can see the belt slack changing from top to bottom. The mass of the table and the slight give of the belt and the velocity tolerance that software allows means it's struggling to maintain that velocity. I imagine if you want to keep that velocity tolerance, you may have to mess around with various tensions on the belt to get it to cooperate. Provide more rigidity. Also, don't overlook using idler bearings (ball bearings as idler pulleys). They also help with belt dynamics. EG, Use a slightly longer belt and then slightly hourglass its shape with dual idlers. Alternatively, a different pulley ratio may give the motor more mechanical advantage while having its RPM in a better range to provide the torque it needs to. Have fun. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes
Congrats on repeating exactly what he said at the end of the video.
@@brianpennington4202 😮
You're probably also going to want to consider workpiece mass. IE you might get this instability resolved through tuning, only to find it reappear when a 10kg block of something is clamped down to the work surface. It might help to reduce your velocity tolerance, but that will likely affect surface finish.
when using a reamer ive always made the pre ream hole about .010-.015in under the final ream size.
Reaming is usually around .01 u/s, half the sfm & double the feed.
Congrats on using metric :) For us in the non-inch world, we tend to remember that M6 is the smallest thread with a 1mm pitch, so the drill size is 5mm.
I have no experience with clearpath motors, but i do have some experience with servo motors and high jerk motion profiles usually result in high oscillations, especially in drive systems with some give in them. What type of motion profile do you intend to run?
Hi James,
The project is getting closer to completion. Are you using Kevlar reinforced timing belts?
My question is... Besides the monitor mount do any of the lathe, mill, surface grinder, engineer TH-cam guys/girls make anything besides tools or tools for making tools to make more tools?
No.
Yes, when they run out of ideas for tools, they make steam engines...
It's Sacrilege using a metric center finder James 😂 Coming together nicely! 👍👍
He used the SI insurance incantation (rpm per second) so he is safe from all accusations!
This comment mostly for Uncle Algo…)
When using a metric edge finder, don’t forget to use the 1/10 function instead of the 1/2 function to find the center of the part.
Naaa, you wrong there, it should be the 1/5 function, you are looking for half a metric dia. Five is half of ten, easy.
I swear that faulty Parting insert geometry is not the same as the new one. It looks like the cutting edge is curved and the initial cutting back edge/tip near to the chuck is behind the centre point of the insert. So the cutter is trying to cut with the centre first. Maybe just how it looks on my tv??
Dog point set screw is what there called
And they are an off-the-shelf item at McMaster, Bolt Depot, etc.
Nothing wrong with making your own
@@josephlovell6951 Depends on how many you need. Last time i needed dog points i needed 20-30 of them.
I wonder if it helps to accelerate/decelerate the motion at the ends
Yes. The motion generator does this, as will the finished system.
What lathe do you use and how do you make it run so quiet.
Great video!
TIL how to debur a parted round the easy way. Thanks for the good content.
James nice work, did we miss the controller setup? I’m working on a somewhat similar project and was hoping to see how you setup the clear core control. Thanx for your great lessons.
I would guess that will be coming.
Here he was just using the clearpath program for testing, setup and tuning.
@@andreblanchard8315 thanx, thought he only did the jogging and turning thru the app , waiting anxiously 👍
No keyway in the gears ???
Nice.
A pin screw screw pin... That reminds me of something that was all over the internet in 2016.
Smooth ......... well, I'm confident it will be 😉and we'll all get to learn what you discovered. Win - Win -Win 👍😎👍
The rule on reamers is pre-ream hole is 95-98% of final size.
When you feel like you got the whole thing figured out, I have a small job for you to test it out on.
nice jobs sir
A grub screw like that is called a dog point.
metric edge finder lol
4mm tip instead of 0.200".
@@Clough42 I know but you use the half function anyway so it doesn't matter. It's maybe the least important thing to be metric in what you were doing so I thought it was funny
@@jaxfrankI'm sure that was the intended but subtle joke.
@@jaxfrank not for the offset from the pulley face.
Надо на гидравлике делать
This channel has become insufferable. All you do is make crap for machines you already have. Why don't you try to make something that leaves the shop and makes someone's life better? You'd have more viewers and maybe make some revenue? That's what all of these machines were built to do- not stay perfectly clean and 'upgraded' for no reason other than to make more parts to get 'upgraded' again. I don't really care if you reply with some kind of "then don't watch" attitude response. I'm giving you good advice, you should take it.
Ahhh ... really? 30 minutes of you putting together something that you sent out to make anyway? I miss your old videos of small shop CNC actually making something. This could have been a 2 minute video. Really boring (NO pun intended).
Not an avid water but this seemed like a cool project. I found it to be interesting until you started measuring bores in microns, man… That makes you, your channel and this project super un-relatable. Just my opinion. Not trying to be offensive.