Most people don’t realize that the average pay per flag hour in this industry is around $23. To put that into perspective doing front brakes on a car pays less than what most detailers charge to preform an exterior bucket wash on the same car, or if the job goes south it can pay less than minimum wage. This job also requires roughly about $5k-$10k worth of tools to be efficient. The home depot by me pays $17 per hour for cashiers. So for those of you thinking of entering this hellscape of an industry, or for those of you wondering why we are leaving here it is. You can make better money washing cars than you can working on them. Greed killed this industry, and I personally am going to enjoy just kicking back and watching it burn.
we all know that. What we want to know is WHY is that? who tf invented flat rate, who decides "hey we're gonna pay our mechs and techs shit pay", how do you oust those MFs or if that isn't possible, how do you open up dealerships that DON'T run on such a garbage system? obviously a mechanics' shop can charge as they will. but a dealer?
@@RizzyGyatt ford invented flat rate. Shops/dealerships get a fixed profit on every job no matter how piss poor they manage, schedule, keep up with shop equipment. They’ll keep offering shit pay as long as techs keep accepting it. Best thing to do is not work for them. Eventually the market will work itself out and crappy shops that can’t keep help will go out of business, and ones that compensate fairly & take care of their techs will prosper.
My local dealer has a $160 per hour rate so your telling me only $23 of that goes to the mechanic?? WTF 😲 Can't stand stealerships and avoid them at all costs.
@@eppyz yes, that’s average and they only earn that at 100% efficiency. So if problems such as the ones Ezekiel mentioned happen the pay can be halved. So doing a brake job may only earn them about $11-$12 an hour.
I worked 32 years in the industry for 4 different service managers, and none of them ever wrenched on cars. The same with service advisors and dispatchers. They all made more money than I did,and they didn't even have to pay for the pen they wrote with!
@@jerrykurl69 I'm an hourly tech, and don't care how long it takes, my employer knows my value. My plumber friend makes a little more money, but I never smell like _someone else's_ $hit when I get home. Goals ?
I’ve worked at the dealer for 20 years. These con artist and hacks are worse now that ever. It’s sad and a joke. I can’t bring myself to be hack and a con, so I get punished cuz they need a “senior” guy to look at cars that have been misdiagnosed 3 times already. Now I’m stuck fixing someone else’s screw up while the original tech that misdiagnosed is doing services all day. You’re 100% correct. Playing dumb will make you more money. And management will love you cuz you’re making them money. The quality of work pays no part in how management sees you.
Exactly, U get the shit work because they "can't trust anyone else" and the lazy mfs get all the gravy work because they "need to get paid too." Our management has been pretty good about covering any extra time we need as long as we can justify why. But even that still sucks because the ppl acting dumb have more opportunities to make extra on gravy work. This is the only industry where 2 journeyman can differ so much in knowledge/skill and get paid the same hourly wage.
@@bluelightguy1 100% the only thing that saves the business for me is the fact that my flat rate pay high. But some of these noobs ain’t that far behind. Eventually we hit a pay ceiling and the bs we deal with ain’t worth it anymore. I can get paid more an hour but what’s the point when jabronies are making twice the hrs I am with basic work. It’s a grind for sure.
I recently went to swap the shifter on my 2016 Fiesta ST. Turns out the tech that replaced the climate control in 2018 broke all the clips on the shifter surround bezel and hot glued it down. On another note I had a leaky axle seal replaced under warranty. I put the wheel lock key in the cupholder and a sticky note on the dash saying where it was. The tech actually wrote thank you on the note when I got it back.
You are Soooo right. I started writing everything down so when I had enough and get into pissing match with the service writer/manager/owner I have a leg to stand on. Oh yeah, never forget what you've worked on and everyone else. One day you will get their screw up and it's better to know about it before you get the ticket. Stand your ground Mechanics. This bs has to end.
*"Leg to stand on..." To do what with? You're an at-will employee of a dealer having more monetary resources available for the manager's lunch room than you might have available for a lawyer. And any ethical lawyer will tell you: "Nothing actionable here". In the end your pissing match will result in a termination email and an angry case of the ass. They.Don't Care. and bravado doesn't pay your rent. Sorry, but those are facts.*
@@blackrifle6736 Your arguing semantics. Nobody said anything about Lawyers. If its to that point, you walk the fxxk out! No job is worth the aggravation and the toll it takes on your health. There isn't no recovering from a law suit and working at the same place. The whole point here is that the auto repair industry is not right and CM Autohaus is pointing out all the ways mechanics get screwed in the end every day all the time. There is no bravado, we need Peace. And your right! No employers care or it's just a facade if they look like they do.
@@PaulLorenzini-ny2yw good for you for getting out of there… my situation is kinda tough right now and I need the job. I get ridiculed for doing jobs properly, they literally told me the other day if it drives straight than skip the alignment
@@shanedottiethanks for the insight. As a customer, next time i pay for alignment, i will ask to watch. If they say insurance says i cant be in bay, I will go somewhere else.
The flat rate system sucked back in the 70s when I started wrenching. The best way to make money is to work for yourself like I did. Now retired, but still doing small jobs on the side.
I got screwed over at a Honda dealership for over 5 years before I finally went into business for myself. I make a lot more money and I don't have to work nearly as hard. It should be illegal for these manufacturers to pay less time for warranty work. Especially when we're the guys bailing them out for the shoddy cars they're building.
The flat-rate system used to be great for guys that worked hard.We always bid our own times and if they didn't sign our bids then we didn't work on the vehicle.Those flat-rate time guides were always kept in the backrooms for technicians writing their OWN BIDS as reference ONLY.Nobody else ever needed to see them.Our legal ability to bid our own times has been completely removed.These labor times are very legally ONLY what a technician AGREES to prior to the work being performed.We no longer have the opportunity to agree or disagree anymore.If we are not given the opportunity to disagree then it is no longer an agreement and illegal.E en on warranty they can only ask us for bids and either accept or decline.We have been surrounded and everybody has gotten institutionalized into this completely corrupted pay system now.
This is exactly why I don't trust my car with dealerships -- warranty or not. Buy a car, go to good indy technicians. Ezekiel is 100% my car guys for life.
I usually try to avoid dealers that I have a bad time with. The current one I been going to for the free services has been fine so far. I see the work is done, so I don't really have an issue with the dealer i go to.
Get yourself some tools and start teaching yourself. That's the ONLY way to ensure the job is done correctly. That goes for everything. HVAC techs, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, appliance repairmen, everybody. This video describes capitalism, not just the auto repair industry. Act accordingly
I’ve been working at a dealership for less than a year and it’s crazy to see how greedy these people are. Techs are good people that usually don’t want to scam a 70 year old out of their money but it’s really not their choice.
My Nephew took his Toyota Tundra in for timing belt replacement. When he got his truck back it looked exactly like when he dropped it off. Still had the dusty look with no evidence that it had been touched. He had to make a big stink about it but he got the mechanic to own up that he didn't do any work at all. They lost a customer and that mechanic should have lost his job.
You know what is terrible is that mechanic actually get rewarded for his "efficiency" in that he flags more hours than he clocks in for. Hooray automotive industry!
On my Honda Odyssey I asked for the old timing belt back. The shop encourages customers to ask because they know other shops cheat the customer and hope to get their competitors in trouble, which I thought this was a great way to build a reputation of honesty....Art's Automotive in Berkeley, California
I had a timing belt replacement done in my old Honda Civic at 100k miles at an independent mechanic shop. At 150k miles my timing belt broke and the engine was destroyed. After that i am convinced the shop never did the work that I paid for.
@CMAutohaus I don't understand though, most of these stories im hearing in these comments are mechanics cheating out on decent Retail work. Like jobs that u can make money on or at the very least go even. Like id be so happy to do these retail jobs than warranty hell.
The flat rate system needs to disappear forever! The flat rate system only incentivizes shortcut taking which does not help customers get their cars fixed properly. The more shortcuts you can take during any given job the more money you make. Which would include not torquing nuts and bolts down, not reading the service manual, bending brackets out of the way instead of removing them. Or grinding something to make clearance so you don't have to take all the components off. On the flip side, the better you do your job, like torquing bolts down, reading the service manual and doing the job properly, the longer the job takes. So essentially you make less money to do a good job. There seems to be three distinct types of technicians. The first type is the type that likes to line their pockets with money, so they opt for the shortcut taking method or just being allowed to overcharge for labor. The second type of technician takes pride in his work and does whatever it takes to make sure the job is done right regardless of how long it takes. The third type of technician is the type that can't even fix a #ucking sandwich much less a car. I've been a dealer technician since 1989, I've seen it all and it certainly is not getting any better. I have so much more to say but I'm just going to end it here. #uck flat rate!
There are plenty of good mechanics out there that want to do the right thing unfortunately they have to rip customers off in order to barely survive . And then the dealership blames it on the mechanic. We didn’t do it. It was a bad mechanic we had. We fired him.
@@scrappy7571nope. I worked for a dealer that was ran by a former racing mechanic. He penny pinched on hourly employees, but respected the mechanics. He was also a massive asshole.
Some just don't like the restrictive nature of it. I knew a mechanic, who didn't like the dealership. One thing that seemed to suck for technicians I knew. The flag time was set by the manufacturer. Talking something like a recall for an A3 E-tron battery paid 8 hours for a recall. The technician had spent 15 hours just opening the battery case. It goes both ways. Working at a local shop isn't any better. Had one mechanic be the favorite, who cut the serpentine belt of another mechanic's job. Out of spite.
I understand the race thing. I’m the only black guy at my shop and know my stuff and have proven to them. But they only give me oil changes and tire rotations. Give tune up, brakes and fluid flushes to the good ole boys. I’m struggling to pay my child support out here. Thinking about going elsewhere, where I’m valued
It's utter bullshit to say techs are the problem. In 1989 the repair rate was $35-$50 depending on where you were A master tech made $24 of that rate. Today it's $150-200+ and top tier techs are getting $30-40. Warranty pay is 30-50% less. Overhead due to out of control real-estate, insurance and owner greed have driven up rates while techs still make mostly the same pay their dad's did. The cost of tools has gone up at the same % as the labor rate. I could go on, the point is this is a shallow take that's way off base.
@@tanker242the numbers are 100% reality. My boss said he can’t compete with Walmart whose pay range is 18.50 to 24 an hour for just oil changes, and Walmart provides the tools. No tech supplied tools required. The industry seems to believe 20 an hour is still good money, and does expect you to still provide your own tools. Not that there aren’t shops that will pay more or better, but most won’t.
@@tanker242I'm a Hyundai tech in South Louisiana. I make 35$ an hour. The shop rate is I think 160$. I also am currently the longest standing and oldest (at only 35) tech at the dealer. I see new guys come backs all the time. Also see work that I never did diag on, but I get "hey throw this double clutch pack in." Oh great now it don't work because there's missing info in the service manual and I have to call tech line and wait 20-30 mins on hold or being told to check the simple stuff I already did blah blah blah... It's a fkin nightmare sometimes. Oh wait what's the point I'm trying to make.
When I started in this business the mechanics got half the shops labor rate. Like a barber, nail technician or hair dresser. A server at a restaurant gets 20% and they don't cook anything, usually don't even bring the food to you, someone else does it for them. The days of mechanics being the ones who are uneducated and working for peanuts are quickly going away. If you're good at what you do stand up for yourself. Some of my best pay increases came from moving to a different shop. Then getting a bigger increase to come back.
That sucks about flat rate in the dealership Flat rate in the auto body realm at least at the shop I work at works out pretty good but we have a good shop foreman that is fair with everyone that pulls they're own weight and isn't biased to whoever he wants to be also our service writers work with us instead of against us, I've been at shops though where you are fighting management and the service writers and the painters the whole way through process just to find out that the guy handing the work out doesn't like you for whatever reason he feels like and you get skipped on any good job. So its all about finding a good shop with good people in it that work together thankyou for speaking the truth in these videos you put out brother.
I will say this much. Every time I’ve taken my car to the dealership, they fuck it up? Not my problem. Warranty will cover it. And 90% of the time they don’t fuck it up. And I’m pretty sure thats flat rate work Every time I go to a mom and pop shop or major chain store. They fuck it up? Somehow they will try and blame you for it even though they are the last people to touch your car. And every time I look at the bill I get charged per hour. Moral of the story. After a warranty is done. Don’t let anyone touch your car. Just do the work yourself. Your wallet and stress levels will thank you.
The way manufacturers derive “Book Time” is they start on a clean well lit factory floor. They have a new car with no corrosion. They have a trained tech standing by with the parts and tools. Then they start the clock. It ends with the car lowered off the lift.
My friend, you right I’ll work for Nissan for four years and I know what you’re going through. I’m glad somebody opened up a Pandora box so everybody understand when you work flat rate sometime it can be home. Have a good day, my friend.
My Wife gets "free" oil changes from the dealer she bought the car from. She always comes home with a $1500 list if repairs needed. I've been a mechanic since points and condensers. Those lists crack me up.
@@jerrykurl69 The car has "needed" a valve cover gasket for 6 years. Now it "needs" an oil pan gasket too. Last time, they told her it was so bad, it had no oil left in it. No spots in our driveway though. Hilarious.
@@paulhare662 At least its not a list of flushes. A valve cover leak is very easy to verify and gaskets and seals definitely dry out. As a dealer tech I would call oil leaks under warranty because it does help the customer out and I can beat warranty pay times and stay out of the warranty shit loop.
*Ezekiel: Thank you for another heartfelt presentation. Congratulations on your five years and 445 videos of reportage and your deep insights into the corruption that is the Flat Rate system. Black-bell subscribed because your insights continually remind and inform me of the challenges every ethical dealer mechanic faces every day. Love ya'!*
In hindsight, when a job is scheduled that requires the wheels to be removed, it may be helpful for the shop doing the scheduling to ask the customer if they have wheel locks. If so, please bring that wheel lock key and put it in the hands of the person taking in those jobs upon their arrival. If not, that customer should be charged for the cat-and-mouse search game.
half of the appointments scheduled for the dealership I work at are scheduled by a "business development center". Just a company our phone calls get outsourced to, they literally don't care.
YOU ARE CORRECT !!!! There is biased dealers who don't like Northern techs and vice versa too. I am a retires tech, and will not cut corners or cheat. Dealers don't like that. Great, straight forward video. 2 thumbs up.
In the late 80's/early 90's I worked at a Saab dealer. We were paid a hourly rate that was only a bit more than a best buy part time employee. One of my favorite ways to add things is to add extra labor for things that are included. For example, a leaky water pump book time includes removing the belt and draining the coolant. However I have seen people get charged for a belt service and flush/fill,even though all they did was replace the water pump. I got into auto repair in high school, then worked at a few independent shops and Saab. I am grateful to the old guys that told me to get out of working on cars and get a different career while I could. Now I do IT tech work and my salary is 15x what I was getting at the dealer, plus I get insurance and telework 3 days a week.
And this is why I do all of my own work now. And when I mean all of it, I mean _all of it._ After being blown off by a mechanic who was repairing the vehicle I bought, I've amassed a very large and growing collection of tools; money saved from not going to a mechanic I use to buy the tools needed to do the job. And then those same tools pay for themselves over again when I use them for other things. And they last because I try to only buy quality tools. I can also control the quality of the parts I get, and not have to be at the mercy of 2-3 weeks, or even months, out on something that might be debilitating to the vehicle, and conversely my life. And the best part is I know it was all done properly, because I triple check everything because I am neurotic. I dont have anything against Mechanics; obviously it's one of the most needed and in-demand jobs in the world. But considering how asinine this entire field is on all sides right now, everyone would do well to become a bit more self-reliant about it if at all possible.
I was a Toyota tech 25 years and left for a lot of these reasons but this is about my friend at Kia. Few years ago. The Bluetooth systems are crap always turning off and messing up. So techs never can just sit in the car or drive all day to duplicate this issue. So techs would Tell customers to record if they can and please be safe. By the way my friend is a master diag. So once customers started to do this and techs found out it was a bad unit and replaced them at a higher level. Kia came out and said that they could no longer use customers videos for repairs and it only can be verified by techs. Meaning hey we don’t want to warranty new radios because it’s costing us to much lol. Warranty is a joke!!! So now what he does when he gets the complain is get the repair order get the car make sure the unit is not physically damaged, connect his Bluetooth make sure it works and park it and say could not verify. Even tho the concern could be very legit.
This man speaks the truth. 100 percent true, thats why guys smart enough and skilled enough to be a good mechanic leave or don't even start in the trade. Non dealer shops don't pay well in general so that's not an option. Many times the only guys who will work in the flat rate system are the unskilled and dishonest, thats why your car doesn't get fixed right.
Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome. It's a system that fundamentally fosters dishonesty. I worked in dealerships for over 14 years. I worked a few other places before changing careers entirely.
Yup , this is THE MOST accurate description of how having your vehicles worked on by someone else is actually like dang brother no wonder our fleet of vehicles in our at home shop are flawless and the place is meticulous clean ,
I do the flat rate system , I maintain and fix my car and my familias cars myself with all you youtubers out there. Muchas gracias. Oh and some help from chiltons y haynes
This is why I have an extra car and repair the cars myself. I have taken my cars to the dealership and to specialists, and it's been such a mixed bag of experiences that I felt cheated. First, the dealership charges so far out of the ball park that you cannot but feel cheated. Then the fix lasts only so long; I had a Subaru engine resealed on warranty, but that turned out to be a temporary fix because they didn't fix the cause of the problem, piston rings that were causing the blow-by, common early FB25 problems. When I realized what the problem was, the warranty had expired and I am here taking the engine out to do the rings and the head gaskets myself after overheating. Second, the independent shops charge less but finding the right one is a pain. Everyone is a specialist but who's really good at it? For example, I had a brake job done at a shop and they just didn't know Subaru's and a pad was sticking leading to warped rotor. I only found out after losing MPG's and diagnosing it with an infrared thermometer a long time after the job was done. I had to take care of that myself including new rotors. What's the point of paying more to end up paying more? Sorry to hear of the techs' losing out on money, but the whole system is terrible for consumers in terms of quality and especially the money spent.
And don't forget the smug service managers at the dealership knowing you're there to bend over and take it. Don't get me started with the sales. The ones at Toyota are the absolute worst, the worst of the bunch. They love to smear your face with all their smugness knowing their cars sell best.
The customer actually pays for that. They pay "maximum acceptable time" - every time, no matter what. A break job, to use your example, is 2-4h. My mechanic says it almost never takes him more than 45 min - although a few times/yr it might take him 1-2h (in the case mentioned, rust etc.). In a dealership the customer will pay 2h, either it is 30 min or 2h. That is robbery - one should check the logs of the dealership and if they see that ALL jobs last exactly the MAXIMUM acceptable time, conclude that is is theft. I remember a friend who got his car in 4h and was charged 12. When he complained, the clerk told him with a smirk "If you want, you can leave it here until tomorrow, so you will have 12h".
and now you gotta make a whole video with your MPI and to explain to the customer how to work the bluetooth - another addition to a repair order you arent getting paid for but must do
I was a dealership mechanic for 10 years. It was the stupidest thing ive ever done. I believe most mechanics that put up with it are alcoholics or addicted to drugs. I laugh every time i see a now hiring sign at a dealership. There is a local bell tire hiring starting at $12 per hour and next door there is a panda kictchen hiring at $17 an hour. Its the worst trade to get involved in, dont let your hobby ruin you career.
I am eternally glad that I gave up on the trade in my first year after working at 2 different small shops. Both were run by dishonest tyrants who were extremely cheap.
Dont forget that at a dealer, any warranty work you do is an almost guaranteed loss. So now you have no choice but to make up your time upselling to cash customers or take a shit paycheck. The more certifications you get, the more warranty work you get. This means that the farther up the ladder you go, the less money you actually make. I used to watch guys do brake jobs and PDI's all day while I busted my ass doing warranty engines, and my paycheck was half of the other guys.
Management is very important. My buddy works at a Mercedes dealer. They offer higher straight time hourly pay+ productivity bonus. The dispatch to always try to make it fair and gives u a boost with gravy jobs if ur efficiency starts to drop below 115%. For example if u had a bad week doing diag, big overhauls, or engine out jobs, then the next week ur only getting PDIs, brakes and gravy services.
Took my car to a Chevy dealership to diagnose a suspension issue sometime last year. Got a call from them a couple of days later saying that they "found many issues" with my car: Front struts, sway bar links, tires... The only one they got right was the tires why? Because I relaced all of the rest with genuine GM parts less than a year earlier. They quote me $7K to fix everything. The funny thing is even if I had agreed to the "fix" it still wouldn't have addressed the issue I went there for in the first place because the suspension parts they asked me to fix were all in the front and the noise issue I had was in the rear right wheel. This tells me they didn't even bother to diagnose my issue. I then took the car to a local mechanic and it took him ten minutes to notice the issue. Its a bad rear wheel hub.
I learned the hard way when I found out the person who was fixing my car at the dealership was an apprentice and unsupervised. I'm not mechanically inclined but I got sick of the dealerships and decided to learn how to do my own maintenance.
All very true. Another result of unpaid diagnostic time, just start replacing things. Instead of an unpaid hour or two, replace anything that might be the cause. You'll get a full paycheck, the shop made money. The customer lost a weeks pay, just doesn't know it.
Guys, here in my shop the techs run it. Service advisor can eat crap if they disrespect me or rush me! I’ll called In sick the next day! lol, we are not a union but we speak up and know we are in high demand.
Having replaced the intake manifold, full exhaust, replaced the rotors/pads/hoses and rebuilt the suspension, F/R on a 99 Integra GSR I owned, I understand well. Maybe I'm unusual but I always check what was supposedly done and I get nasty if I find i was burned. On the other hand, good work I make sure to show appreciation, including doing something to show appreciation for their birthday for example.
Sometimes costumer get burned by mistake service advisor rush for diagnostic. U may think it's a door lock module but come to find out it's a broken wire u heat wrap the wire and get paid for the module
This makes me thankful I’ve never had to deal with the flat rate system. I’ve been a diesel mechanic for just over a year. I get decent hourly pay plus monthly incentive pay based on customer billed hours. We are encouraged to do a quality job while still being efficient.
Thank you for sharing such an honest behind-the-scenes perspective. I have a huge amount of respect for craftspeople who work hard and are passionate about doing things right. My mechanic of 20+ years just retired. Now, I need to find an independent mechanic for my family's cars... I worked in kitchens my whole life and I can barely change my truck's oil so, I am pretty clueless about what to look out for when assessing mechanics. Got any advice? Google reviews? Red/Green flags? I live in a good sized city. There's a lot of options. Cheers
It's really hard to find a decent shop when it's harder for the shop find technicians. One of the shops in my area used to be bad due to the front counter person (Manager). Up saling and stuff and a total douche specifically us, Asians. The mechanics got sick of it and reported to HQ about the problems. One of the representatives of the area came in and fired the guy after 30 minutes of talking. Now, the technicians are the ones who does the talking and front counter. The manager sits back and deal with paperworks. They brought themselves back up.
If no one wants to be a tech, how do we get automotive instructors? My old auto instructor has regularly ping'd me to come instruct with him as there is a severe shortage of auto teachers
@@iamtheoffenderofall The best local mechanic we have has his own shop, and he attempts to write all the paper work, do 60% of the repairs himself, answer the phone, and complains he can never get anything done. You can't talk to a customer and fix things at the same time. At some point an office secretary or service manager has a place and a purpose.
When I was still an apprentice tech, the tech teams would fight over me to complete Pre Delivery Inspections on new vehicles because that earned them 3 hrs and I could complete them in 1. Felt nice being fought over.
If you’re the express tech and you have a big parking lot and not a wait in line system, it’s pretty bad. Between each job, it can take up to 10 minutes to drive away the finished car and then go look for and pull in the next one.
In the 32 years I've been a tech, about 6 were flat rate. Not only would I never go back to flat rate, I would never work a dealership either. Far too many good, hourly pay technician jobs, because nobody wants to do it anymore.
Easy fix. All shops must be required to pay the tech for how ever many hours it takes the tech to do the job and the customer gets charged that many hours and can't complain about the price. Done!!!
worked as a meck 3 years on flat rate. small shop knew the boss. was more a learning exp then for the money. all our work was on flat rate. and i can grantee you we dident cut corners unless the customer explicitly said do it cheap as possible. and sadly that happened alot. pissed my boss off real bad. and yes sum times we lost money on repairs most the time we maid money tho. our biggest problem was customers not picking up vehicles in a timely manner. rember on a friday we had 5k in done vehicles just sitting taking up space. and was real problem cuz we knew had 5 more vehicles geting dropped off that weekend.
Damn, bro. Im from Russia, working in BMW dealership, and we had exactly same problems. After two years of working here i saw exactly all this problems with dumb techs, dishonesty, and etc, and I have no idea how to fix this, the only way i can see it start to work on myself or join indy shop
Ive never worked with techs that straight up lied about doing the job before. Especially easy retail work like throttle body clean and cabin filter. I can't even understand why people would try to lie about it. Unlike warranty, most of the retail book times ive worked with have been pretty reasonable.
Great video 👍 My brother in law and his brother worked at a local Ford dealer and were very good techs that used to do 100+ weeks easy under the flat rate system but they actually did the work correctly since they had so much experience between them. Would have to know both personally to understand why I say this. Of course dating the service manager has its own benefits 😉 Anyway that explains all the problems I still have with the Ford 10-speed transmission behind the engine (I live in a different state last decade so don’t know anyone that works at the Ford dealership. Just got the good old: Customer Concern (enter whatever) with the findings always “Cannot Duplicate Customers Concerns At This Time” nonsense.
Flat rate also breeds hacks . I worked in the collision industry as a painter for about 10 years . You were at the mercy of the manager to make any money if he played golf on the weekends with one of the other painters in the shop. I use to turn around 90 hours of flagged paint time on a slow to moderate week at 18.5 pr hour . It was a toxic environment and I was always on my toes and afraid to take vacation and what not. I quit 7 years ago and do industrial metal fabrication for very large companies and I have plenty of vacation and good pay with a take home truck . I'm much happier
ive got 23 years as a mechaic not all shops go off flat rate some do both you eartn min wage and anything over that day they base the pay off flat rate .. or combine it
Happened to me having to eat labor on a built C6 Z06 I put together when the machine shop that sleeved the block had a sleeve to drop and I had to pull everything back apart. To make matters worse the customer found out about the new machine shop that was repairing the block and harassed them to the point that when I got the short block back, I had to assemble more shit back on the motor than When I dropped it off. One of the many nails in the coffin as why I won't do automotive work for the general public.
The lovely thing about getting very good at turning wrenches is you can tell your boss to punch sand and quit. Pack up your stuff then do side jobs charging half of a shops rate making more than you made at the shop in 1 day what you make in a week.
Wow if techs are throwing away cabin air filters then I would imagine the filters would eventually get clogged. At least the independent shop I took my car, I’m pretty sure they changed the cabin air filter since they broke the soft open damper that goes on the glove box. Well at least did something. Pissed about that.
i'm an express tech for a dealer, and yeah im against flat rate. my attitude has changed 180 degrees since i went on hourly. my wife says she hasn't seen me so happy. of course im at the end of my career so im molding the guys and gals that are entry level. my biggest problem is one year a brake job might be 2 hours. a year or 2 later and its dropped to 1 hour. while the shop increased its labor rate to $170 an hour. i know guys that crank out 100 hours a week and are quite good at what they do. i've known guys that crank out 100 hours a week with a 50% return rate. the flat rate is an archaic system that needs an overhaul of some kind. but that probably wont happen because the shop makes more money with it.
What you are talking about with the wheel locks should of been taken care of with the service manager or advisor when car was drop off keys , wheel locks , alarm phone numbers etc if things are done on front end makes the back in job much easier I had a shop over 20 years try to have the shop run like a fine watch !!!
I feel like a lot of this is true. But a lot of this can be mitigated by setting expectations with your writers. Just as they have to do with the customer. they may think its a pain dealing with you at first. but soon get wise to the fact that you produce better work, have less comebacks, and more return customers. you wont die on this hill, you'll both get over it together. always maintain your integrity.
I worked in ford dealership for over 15 years quit because I had to fix all the hard.problems while other techs would screw it up on purpose so they would get the easy work got paid the same per hour I did
I have never met a service advisor who knew anything about vehicles. They tell customers a line of bullshit & that is all they are good for. I apologise to any service advisors who DO know what they are talking about.
I saw alot of the same stuff while working commission for several companies doing various types of work. This is not an "automotive" issue. This is a fair employment issue.
Most folks definitely don’t know that a dealership is the last place a tech wants to be working and almost always is the last place you want to bring your car for service/repair. Warranty only. And double check the work. That’s not supposed to be a personal attack on a tech working at a dealership… but as this video describes… it does not reward good work, so you should not expect good work. Find a good indy shop if you don’t then your own wrenches 🤷🏻♂️
At 4:55 - I strongly believe that you should honor your employer and do the work that they expect you to perform. If they incentivize you to by "...rewarding you to cut corners..." then I would humbly suggest you perform the work in the manner they expect of you. FYI - I would HAPPILY take my car to a good dealer mechanic...by dropping my car off directly to the mechanic's home and pay cash for quality work by a pro. That's what my neighbor 3 houses from me does and our neighborhood loves him because we all trust only him to work on our cars.
And that is why I only do Time and Materials. 45 years in at this time. If they don’t like it, take it somewhere else. I have no trouble finding Customers. Reason: I care first and am concerned about cost second.
All of the flat rate calculations should be on a sliding scale based on where the cars are coming from. If you work for a shop in the rust belt, better count in every fastener being rusted solid. That will most certainly make a 2 hour job into a 3 hour one.
100% correct. There is reason why techs are leaving the industry and the more that do it the more the system can be fixed. Let them sweat and cave to paying techs honest steady wages instead of have them turn and burn...out. You can make 6 figures elsewhere (WITH BENEFITS) and have wrenching as a side hustle and still have time for life. It's out there because mechanics make great trainable humans.
That explains why they don't fix anything. I have had my ute for 9 years Mitsubishi Triton MQ 2015 and serviced it myself, recently the rpm would drop below what is normal every time I would come to a complete stop or the aircon cycleson and off at idle and the car feels like it is going to stall. No DTC so I bought a smoke machine and had a leak on the EGR, purchased another same issue, returned it and got a replacement, same problem leaking in the same spot, so I bit the bullet and took it to the dealer and it had to be on Thursday because that is when they do a "diagnostics". Half a day later all they did was to connect the computer to the car to find no DTC and updated to the last version . Did they test car? No, paid $200 and all I got, aaaaa maybe it is the EGR or valve clearance check and gave me a quote for $1850 to adjust the valve clearance. You know I booked it to get fixed. This is what they do everytime you pay and nothing gets fixed and they tell you next service we will look at it again, next service they say "we could not replicate the fault. No incentive for the tech to do the job correctly.
25 years in this greed driven industry. Way too long. Left last year. Best move ever. Fought too long and hard to do right surrounded by thieves. Quantity first. Set new sales or service records, congrats you set the new monthly goal. Want to make more money. Sell more. I made good money honestly for a long time due to a strong product line and an unusually good crew of people but as it slowly grew into a money monster it just got worse and worse
I had tow truck drivers threatening to not bring me work at their own shop if I didn’t tip them lol and when I was the last mechanic there I said they can eat shit and I wouldn’t work on their cars since they tried to be scummy from day one.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Most people don’t realize that the average pay per flag hour in this industry is around $23. To put that into perspective doing front brakes on a car pays less than what most detailers charge to preform an exterior bucket wash on the same car, or if the job goes south it can pay less than minimum wage. This job also requires roughly about $5k-$10k worth of tools to be efficient. The home depot by me pays $17 per hour for cashiers. So for those of you thinking of entering this hellscape of an industry, or for those of you wondering why we are leaving here it is. You can make better money washing cars than you can working on them. Greed killed this industry, and I personally am going to enjoy just kicking back and watching it burn.
we all know that. What we want to know is WHY is that? who tf invented flat rate, who decides "hey we're gonna pay our mechs and techs shit pay", how do you oust those MFs or if that isn't possible, how do you open up dealerships that DON'T run on such a garbage system?
obviously a mechanics' shop can charge as they will. but a dealer?
@@RizzyGyatt ford invented flat rate. Shops/dealerships get a fixed profit on every job no matter how piss poor they manage, schedule, keep up with shop equipment. They’ll keep offering shit pay as long as techs keep accepting it. Best thing to do is not work for them. Eventually the market will work itself out and crappy shops that can’t keep help will go out of business, and ones that compensate fairly & take care of their techs will prosper.
My local dealer has a $160 per hour rate so your telling me only $23 of that goes to the mechanic?? WTF 😲 Can't stand stealerships and avoid them at all costs.
@@eppyz yes, that’s average and they only earn that at 100% efficiency. So if problems such as the ones Ezekiel mentioned happen the pay can be halved. So doing a brake job may only earn them about $11-$12 an hour.
@@jasonkoplen2554 yikes no wonder so many Mechanics just open thier own business.
People who don’t/have never worked on cars should never be allowed to manage those who do.
Should not design them either
I worked 32 years in the industry for 4 different service managers, and none of them ever wrenched on cars. The same with service advisors and dispatchers. They all made more money than I did,and they didn't even have to pay for the pen they wrote with!
@@Fishseaofcortez I personally stayed in the industry for only three years and left because I had the same sentiment.
Sorta like politicians who never had a real job or managed a business.
But.... what about "inclusion "? 😆
I actually heard an old Ford Tech say, “Sync problems, I’m not a plumber.”
Lol
If you’re an auto tech, you sure as hell can fix a toilet.
@@jerrykurl69And a plumber probably can't fix 99% of car problems, but who makes more ?
@@jamesgeorge4874 depends on the job, how good you are or at the dealer… how big of a thief you are.
@@jerrykurl69 I'm an hourly tech, and don't care how long it takes, my employer knows my value. My plumber friend makes a little more money, but I never smell like _someone else's_ $hit when I get home. Goals ?
I’ve worked at the dealer for 20 years. These con artist and hacks are worse now that ever. It’s sad and a joke. I can’t bring myself to be hack and a con, so I get punished cuz they need a “senior” guy to look at cars that have been misdiagnosed 3 times already. Now I’m stuck fixing someone else’s screw up while the original tech that misdiagnosed is doing services all day. You’re 100% correct. Playing dumb will make you more money. And management will love you cuz you’re making them money. The quality of work pays no part in how management sees you.
The better the tech you are the less you will make
Exactly, U get the shit work because they "can't trust anyone else" and the lazy mfs get all the gravy work because they "need to get paid too." Our management has been pretty good about covering any extra time we need as long as we can justify why. But even that still sucks because the ppl acting dumb have more opportunities to make extra on gravy work. This is the only industry where 2 journeyman can differ so much in knowledge/skill and get paid the same hourly wage.
@@bluelightguy1 100% the only thing that saves the business for me is the fact that my flat rate pay high. But some of these noobs ain’t that far behind. Eventually we hit a pay ceiling and the bs we deal with ain’t worth it anymore. I can get paid more an hour but what’s the point when jabronies are making twice the hrs I am with basic work. It’s a grind for sure.
@@sl0907 you are dead on. if I gotta hear “I can’t trust anyone else” again lol. Those ego tricks don’t work anymore.
Said it before I'll work on my own shit before I work in someone's shop
Was a dealer mechanic for 25 years biggest scammer got the best jobs.
💯The biggest thief at my dealer shop always got the best jobs. He also got out of the warranty work and rips off unsuspecting customers daily.
And if he left or got fired we got to do all his comebacks
I recently went to swap the shifter on my 2016 Fiesta ST. Turns out the tech that replaced the climate control in 2018 broke all the clips on the shifter surround bezel and hot glued it down. On another note I had a leaky axle seal replaced under warranty. I put the wheel lock key in the cupholder and a sticky note on the dash saying where it was. The tech actually wrote thank you on the note when I got it back.
*Biscuit: A tech who soaks up all the gravy*
You are Soooo right. I started writing everything down so when I had enough and get into pissing match with the service writer/manager/owner I have a leg to stand on. Oh yeah, never forget what you've worked on and everyone else. One day you will get their screw up and it's better to know about it before you get the ticket. Stand your ground Mechanics. This bs has to end.
*"Leg to stand on..." To do what with? You're an at-will employee of a dealer having more monetary resources available for the manager's lunch room than you might have available for a lawyer. And any ethical lawyer will tell you: "Nothing actionable here". In the end your pissing match will result in a termination email and an angry case of the ass. They.Don't Care. and bravado doesn't pay your rent. Sorry, but those are facts.*
@@blackrifle6736 Your arguing semantics. Nobody said anything about Lawyers. If its to that point, you walk the fxxk out! No job is worth the aggravation and the toll it takes on your health. There isn't no recovering from a law suit and working at the same place. The whole point here is that the auto repair industry is not right and CM Autohaus is pointing out all the ways mechanics get screwed in the end every day all the time. There is no bravado, we need Peace. And your right! No employers care or it's just a facade if they look like they do.
It’s actually sickening seeing my coworkers suck brake fluid out of the reservoir, add new fluid, and call it a “brake flush”
Funny you mention that, I worked at a high end dealer 20 or so years ago and it was the same thing, I lasted 2 months.
@@PaulLorenzini-ny2yw good for you for getting out of there… my situation is kinda tough right now and I need the job. I get ridiculed for doing jobs properly, they literally told me the other day if it drives straight than skip the alignment
@@PaulLorenzini-ny2yw it’s always the high end dealers that you can think you can trust, if they are busy than things will be done incorrectly
@@shanedottiecars can have 4 degrees of toe and still drive strIght😂
@@shanedottiethanks for the insight. As a customer, next time i pay for alignment, i will ask to watch. If they say insurance says i cant be in bay, I will go somewhere else.
The flat rate system sucked back in the 70s when I started wrenching. The best way to make money is to work for yourself like I did. Now retired, but still doing small jobs on the side.
I got screwed over at a Honda dealership for over 5 years before I finally went into business for myself. I make a lot more money and I don't have to work nearly as hard. It should be illegal for these manufacturers to pay less time for warranty work. Especially when we're the guys bailing them out for the shoddy cars they're building.
That What I Do just to Survive
The flat-rate system used to be great for guys that worked hard.We always bid our own times and if they didn't sign our bids then we didn't work on the vehicle.Those flat-rate time guides were always kept in the backrooms for technicians writing their OWN BIDS as reference ONLY.Nobody else ever needed to see them.Our legal ability to bid our own times has been completely removed.These labor times are very legally ONLY what a technician AGREES to prior to the work being performed.We no longer have the opportunity to agree or disagree anymore.If we are not given the opportunity to disagree then it is no longer an agreement and illegal.E en on warranty they can only ask us for bids and either accept or decline.We have been surrounded and everybody has gotten institutionalized into this completely corrupted pay system now.
Glad I just did my new calipers, rotors, and pads myself.
This is exactly why I don't trust my car with dealerships -- warranty or not. Buy a car, go to good indy technicians. Ezekiel is 100% my car guys for life.
I usually try to avoid dealers that I have a bad time with. The current one I been going to for the free services has been fine so far. I see the work is done, so I don't really have an issue with the dealer i go to.
Get yourself some tools and start teaching yourself. That's the ONLY way to ensure the job is done correctly.
That goes for everything. HVAC techs, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, appliance repairmen, everybody.
This video describes capitalism, not just the auto repair industry.
Act accordingly
Although I'm somewhat skilled, I really couldn't handle this working environment, very interesting insights
The puller i use for stuck rotors looks exactly like an eight pound hammer.
I’ve been working at a dealership for less than a year and it’s crazy to see how greedy these people are. Techs are good people that usually don’t want to scam a 70 year old out of their money but it’s really not their choice.
My Nephew took his Toyota Tundra in for timing belt replacement. When he got his truck back it looked exactly like when he dropped it off. Still had the dusty look with no evidence that it had been touched. He had to make a big stink about it but he got the mechanic to own up that he didn't do any work at all. They lost a customer and that mechanic should have lost his job.
You know what is terrible is that mechanic actually get rewarded for his "efficiency" in that he flags more hours than he clocks in for. Hooray automotive industry!
On my Honda Odyssey I asked for the old timing belt back. The shop encourages customers to ask because they know other shops cheat the customer and hope to get their competitors in trouble, which I thought this was a great way to build a reputation of honesty....Art's Automotive in Berkeley, California
@@donaldlee6760 I have boxes full of old parts, just in case you want an old part back. Point being how do you know it was your old part?
I had a timing belt replacement done in my old Honda Civic at 100k miles at an independent mechanic shop. At 150k miles my timing belt broke and the engine was destroyed. After that i am convinced the shop never did the work that I paid for.
@CMAutohaus I don't understand though, most of these stories im hearing in these comments are mechanics cheating out on decent Retail work. Like jobs that u can make money on or at the very least go even. Like id be so happy to do these retail jobs than warranty hell.
The flat rate system needs to disappear forever! The flat rate system only incentivizes shortcut taking which does not help customers get their cars fixed properly. The more shortcuts you can take during any given job the more money you make. Which would include not torquing nuts and bolts down, not reading the service manual, bending brackets out of the way instead of removing them. Or grinding something to make clearance so you don't have to take all the components off. On the flip side, the better you do your job, like torquing bolts down, reading the service manual and doing the job properly, the longer the job takes. So essentially you make less money to do a good job. There seems to be three distinct types of technicians. The first type is the type that likes to line their pockets with money, so they opt for the shortcut taking method or just being allowed to overcharge for labor. The second type of technician takes pride in his work and does whatever it takes to make sure the job is done right regardless of how long it takes. The third type of technician is the type that can't even fix a #ucking sandwich much less a car. I've been a dealer technician since 1989, I've seen it all and it certainly is not getting any better. I have so much more to say but I'm just going to end it here. #uck flat rate!
Shoutout to all the dishonest Mechanics in the comments, You have saved me thousands working on my own cars over the years.
There are plenty of good mechanics out there that want to do the right thing unfortunately they have to rip customers off in order to barely survive . And then the dealership blames it on the mechanic. We didn’t do it. It was a bad mechanic we had. We fired him.
Man- you make working in a dealership sound like the rules and politics of being in prison.
Well most dealers are run by ex cons, AKA used car salesmen.
@@scrappy7571hey I was a used car salesman I’m not a con fuck you
@@scrappy7571nope. I worked for a dealer that was ran by a former racing mechanic. He penny pinched on hourly employees, but respected the mechanics. He was also a massive asshole.
Some just don't like the restrictive nature of it. I knew a mechanic, who didn't like the dealership. One thing that seemed to suck for technicians I knew. The flag time was set by the manufacturer. Talking something like a recall for an A3 E-tron battery paid 8 hours for a recall. The technician had spent 15 hours just opening the battery case. It goes both ways. Working at a local shop isn't any better. Had one mechanic be the favorite, who cut the serpentine belt of another mechanic's job. Out of spite.
I understand the race thing. I’m the only black guy at my shop and know my stuff and have proven to them. But they only give me oil changes and tire rotations. Give tune up, brakes and fluid flushes to the good ole boys. I’m struggling to pay my child support out here. Thinking about going elsewhere, where I’m valued
It's utter bullshit to say techs are the problem. In 1989 the repair rate was $35-$50 depending on where you were A master tech made $24 of that rate. Today it's $150-200+ and top tier techs are getting $30-40. Warranty pay is 30-50% less. Overhead due to out of control real-estate, insurance and owner greed have driven up rates while techs still make mostly the same pay their dad's did. The cost of tools has gone up at the same % as the labor rate. I could go on, the point is this is a shallow take that's way off base.
Who said the techs r the problem?
I think he's blaming the system more than the tech.
Can anyone else vouch for these numbers? I'm really curious. That's ridiculous. I'm glad I started working on my own cars over a decade ago.
@@tanker242the numbers are 100% reality. My boss said he can’t compete with Walmart whose pay range is 18.50 to 24 an hour for just oil changes, and Walmart provides the tools. No tech supplied tools required. The industry seems to believe 20 an hour is still good money, and does expect you to still provide your own tools. Not that there aren’t shops that will pay more or better, but most won’t.
@@tanker242I'm a Hyundai tech in South Louisiana. I make 35$ an hour. The shop rate is I think 160$. I also am currently the longest standing and oldest (at only 35) tech at the dealer. I see new guys come backs all the time. Also see work that I never did diag on, but I get "hey throw this double clutch pack in." Oh great now it don't work because there's missing info in the service manual and I have to call tech line and wait 20-30 mins on hold or being told to check the simple stuff I already did blah blah blah... It's a fkin nightmare sometimes. Oh wait what's the point I'm trying to make.
That's the dealer ship you worked at ! Porsche dealership I worked at was honest and we did the work we were paid to do no matter how hard it is !
Dude he’s talking about the majority of dealerships. You worked at one, go work for 10 dealerships and tell me how it is
When I started in this business the mechanics got half the shops labor rate. Like a barber, nail technician or hair dresser. A server at a restaurant gets 20% and they don't cook anything, usually don't even bring the food to you, someone else does it for them.
The days of mechanics being the ones who are uneducated and working for peanuts are quickly going away.
If you're good at what you do stand up for yourself. Some of my best pay increases came from moving to a different shop. Then getting a bigger increase to come back.
That sucks about flat rate in the dealership Flat rate in the auto body realm at least at the shop I work at works out pretty good but we have a good shop foreman that is fair with everyone that pulls they're own weight and isn't biased to whoever he wants to be also our service writers work with us instead of against us, I've been at shops though where you are fighting management and the service writers and the painters the whole way through process just to find out that the guy handing the work out doesn't like you for whatever reason he feels like and you get skipped on any good job. So its all about finding a good shop with good people in it that work together thankyou for speaking the truth in these videos you put out brother.
I will say this much.
Every time I’ve taken my car to the dealership, they fuck it up? Not my problem. Warranty will cover it. And 90% of the time they don’t fuck it up. And I’m pretty sure thats flat rate work
Every time I go to a mom and pop shop or major chain store. They fuck it up? Somehow they will try and blame you for it even though they are the last people to touch your car. And every time I look at the bill I get charged per hour.
Moral of the story. After a warranty is done. Don’t let anyone touch your car. Just do the work yourself. Your wallet and stress levels will thank you.
The way manufacturers derive “Book Time” is they start on a clean well lit factory floor. They have a new car with no corrosion. They have a trained tech standing by with the parts and tools. Then they start the clock. It ends with the car lowered off the lift.
This video brought back so many memories for me and reminded me why I'm not a tech anymore. 💯
My friend, you right I’ll work for Nissan for four years and I know what you’re going through. I’m glad somebody opened up a Pandora box so everybody understand when you work flat rate sometime it can be home. Have a good day, my friend.
My Wife gets "free" oil changes from the dealer she bought the car from. She always comes home with a $1500 list if repairs needed. I've been a mechanic since points and condensers. Those lists crack me up.
Always, the unnecessary flushes! The Gravy! Brake flush, diff fluids, power steering flushes! Yum.
@@jerrykurl69 The car has "needed" a valve cover gasket for 6 years. Now it "needs" an oil pan gasket too. Last time, they told her it was so bad, it had no oil left in it. No spots in our driveway though. Hilarious.
@@paulhare662 At least its not a list of flushes. A valve cover leak is very easy to verify and gaskets and seals definitely dry out. As a dealer tech I would call oil leaks under warranty because it does help the customer out and I can beat warranty pay times and stay out of the warranty shit loop.
*Ezekiel: Thank you for another heartfelt presentation. Congratulations on your five years and 445 videos of reportage and your deep insights into the corruption that is the Flat Rate system. Black-bell subscribed because your insights continually remind and inform me of the challenges every ethical dealer mechanic faces every day. Love ya'!*
In hindsight, when a job is scheduled that requires the wheels to be removed, it may be helpful for the shop doing the scheduling to ask the customer if they have wheel locks. If so, please bring that wheel lock key and put it in the hands of the person taking in those jobs upon their arrival. If not, that customer should be charged for the cat-and-mouse search game.
That would make the advisor do more.
half of the appointments scheduled for the dealership I work at are scheduled by a "business development center". Just a company our phone calls get outsourced to, they literally don't care.
YOU ARE CORRECT !!!! There is biased dealers who don't like Northern techs and vice versa too. I am a retires tech, and will not cut corners or cheat. Dealers don't like that. Great, straight forward video. 2 thumbs up.
In the late 80's/early 90's I worked at a Saab dealer. We were paid a hourly rate that was only a bit more than a best buy part time employee.
One of my favorite ways to add things is to add extra labor for things that are included.
For example, a leaky water pump book time includes removing the belt and draining the coolant.
However I have seen people get charged for a belt service and flush/fill,even though all they did was replace the water pump.
I got into auto repair in high school, then worked at a few independent shops and Saab. I am grateful to the old guys that told me to get out of working on cars and get a different career while I could.
Now I do IT tech work and my salary is 15x what I was getting at the dealer, plus I get insurance and telework 3 days a week.
And this is why I do all of my own work now. And when I mean all of it, I mean _all of it._
After being blown off by a mechanic who was repairing the vehicle I bought, I've amassed a very large and growing collection of tools; money saved from not going to a mechanic I use to buy the tools needed to do the job. And then those same tools pay for themselves over again when I use them for other things. And they last because I try to only buy quality tools.
I can also control the quality of the parts I get, and not have to be at the mercy of 2-3 weeks, or even months, out on something that might be debilitating to the vehicle, and conversely my life.
And the best part is I know it was all done properly, because I triple check everything because I am neurotic.
I dont have anything against Mechanics; obviously it's one of the most needed and in-demand jobs in the world. But considering how asinine this entire field is on all sides right now, everyone would do well to become a bit more self-reliant about it if at all possible.
I was a Toyota tech 25 years and left for a lot of these reasons but this is about my friend at Kia. Few years ago. The Bluetooth systems are crap always turning off and messing up. So techs never can just sit in the car or drive all day to duplicate this issue. So techs would
Tell customers to record if they can and please be safe. By the way my friend is a master diag. So once customers started to do this and techs found out it was a bad unit and replaced them at a higher level. Kia came out and said that they could no longer use customers videos for repairs and it only can be verified by techs. Meaning hey we don’t want to warranty new radios because it’s costing us to much lol. Warranty is a joke!!! So now what he does when he gets the complain is get the repair order get the car make sure the unit is not physically damaged, connect his Bluetooth make sure it works and park it and say could not verify. Even tho the concern could be very legit.
This man speaks the truth. 100 percent true, thats why guys smart enough and skilled enough to be a good mechanic leave or don't even start in the trade. Non dealer shops don't pay well in general so that's not an option. Many times the only guys who will work in the flat rate system are the unskilled and dishonest, thats why your car doesn't get fixed right.
Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome. It's a system that fundamentally fosters dishonesty. I worked in dealerships for over 14 years. I worked a few other places before changing careers entirely.
Yup , this is THE MOST accurate description of how having your vehicles worked on by someone else is actually like dang brother no wonder our fleet of vehicles in our at home shop are flawless and the place is meticulous clean ,
I hear you man, thank you for bringing awareness to this.
I do the flat rate system , I maintain and fix my car and my familias cars myself with all you youtubers out there. Muchas gracias. Oh and some help from chiltons y haynes
This is why I have an extra car and repair the cars myself.
I have taken my cars to the dealership and to specialists, and it's been such a mixed bag of experiences that I felt cheated.
First, the dealership charges so far out of the ball park that you cannot but feel cheated.
Then the fix lasts only so long; I had a Subaru engine resealed on warranty, but that turned out to be a temporary fix because they didn't fix the cause of the problem, piston rings that were causing the blow-by, common early FB25 problems. When I realized what the problem was, the warranty had expired and I am here taking the engine out to do the rings and the head gaskets myself after overheating.
Second, the independent shops charge less but finding the right one is a pain. Everyone is a specialist but who's really good at it? For example, I had a brake job done at a shop and they just didn't know Subaru's and a pad was sticking leading to warped rotor. I only found out after losing MPG's and diagnosing it with an infrared thermometer a long time after the job was done. I had to take care of that myself including new rotors. What's the point of paying more to end up paying more?
Sorry to hear of the techs' losing out on money, but the whole system is terrible for consumers in terms of quality and especially the money spent.
And don't forget the smug service managers at the dealership knowing you're there to bend over and take it. Don't get me started with the sales. The ones at Toyota are the absolute worst, the worst of the bunch. They love to smear your face with all their smugness knowing their cars sell best.
The customer actually pays for that. They pay "maximum acceptable time" - every time, no matter what. A break job, to use your example, is 2-4h. My mechanic says it almost never takes him more than 45 min - although a few times/yr it might take him 1-2h (in the case mentioned, rust etc.). In a dealership the customer will pay 2h, either it is 30 min or 2h. That is robbery - one should check the logs of the dealership and if they see that ALL jobs last exactly the MAXIMUM acceptable time, conclude that is is theft.
I remember a friend who got his car in 4h and was charged 12. When he complained, the clerk told him with a smirk "If you want, you can leave it here until tomorrow, so you will have 12h".
and now you gotta make a whole video with your MPI and to explain to the customer how to work the bluetooth - another addition to a repair order you arent getting paid for but must do
I was a dealership mechanic for 10 years. It was the stupidest thing ive ever done. I believe most mechanics that put up with it are alcoholics or addicted to drugs. I laugh every time i see a now hiring sign at a dealership. There is a local bell tire hiring starting at $12 per hour and next door there is a panda kictchen hiring at $17 an hour. Its the worst trade to get involved in, dont let your hobby ruin you career.
I am eternally glad that I gave up on the trade in my first year after working at 2 different small shops. Both were run by dishonest tyrants who were extremely cheap.
Dont forget that at a dealer, any warranty work you do is an almost guaranteed loss. So now you have no choice but to make up your time upselling to cash customers or take a shit paycheck.
The more certifications you get, the more warranty work you get. This means that the farther up the ladder you go, the less money you actually make.
I used to watch guys do brake jobs and PDI's all day while I busted my ass doing warranty engines, and my paycheck was half of the other guys.
Management is very important. My buddy works at a Mercedes dealer. They offer higher straight time hourly pay+ productivity bonus. The dispatch to always try to make it fair and gives u a boost with gravy jobs if ur efficiency starts to drop below 115%. For example if u had a bad week doing diag, big overhauls, or engine out jobs, then the next week ur only getting PDIs, brakes and gravy services.
Very true! I actually made less money in my fifth year at Honda than I did in my second year.
Took my car to a Chevy dealership to diagnose a suspension issue sometime last year. Got a call from them a couple of days later saying that they "found many issues" with my car: Front struts, sway bar links, tires... The only one they got right was the tires why? Because I relaced all of the rest with genuine GM parts less than a year earlier. They quote me $7K to fix everything. The funny thing is even if I had agreed to the "fix" it still wouldn't have addressed the issue I went there for in the first place because the suspension parts they asked me to fix were all in the front and the noise issue I had was in the rear right wheel. This tells me they didn't even bother to diagnose my issue. I then took the car to a local mechanic and it took him ten minutes to notice the issue. Its a bad rear wheel hub.
I learned the hard way when I found out the person who was fixing my car at the dealership was an apprentice and unsupervised. I'm not mechanically inclined but I got sick of the dealerships and decided to learn how to do my own maintenance.
All very true. Another result of unpaid diagnostic time, just start replacing things. Instead of an unpaid hour or two, replace anything that might be the cause. You'll get a full paycheck, the shop made money. The customer lost a weeks pay, just doesn't know it.
Being a mechanic sucks. Did it for a little less than a year. Just don’t do it.. if you like working on cars do it on your free time.
Guys, here in my shop the techs run it. Service advisor can eat crap if they disrespect me or rush me! I’ll called In sick the next day! lol, we are not a union but we speak up and know we are in high demand.
Having replaced the intake manifold, full exhaust, replaced the rotors/pads/hoses and rebuilt the suspension, F/R on a 99 Integra GSR I owned, I understand well.
Maybe I'm unusual but I always check what was supposedly done and I get nasty if I find i was burned. On the other hand, good work I make sure to show appreciation, including doing something to show appreciation for their birthday for example.
“My tooth is blue?!” Weaponized incompetence.
The longer I worked as a tech the less I could do, unless it paid well.
Quantity over quality at stealerships.
Sometimes costumer get burned by mistake service advisor rush for diagnostic. U may think it's a door lock module but come to find out it's a broken wire u heat wrap the wire and get paid for the module
This makes me thankful I’ve never had to deal with the flat rate system. I’ve been a diesel mechanic for just over a year. I get decent hourly pay plus monthly incentive pay based on customer billed hours. We are encouraged to do a quality job while still being efficient.
Thank you for sharing such an honest behind-the-scenes perspective. I have a huge amount of respect for craftspeople who work hard and are passionate about doing things right.
My mechanic of 20+ years just retired. Now, I need to find an independent mechanic for my family's cars...
I worked in kitchens my whole life and I can barely change my truck's oil so, I am pretty clueless about what to look out for when assessing mechanics.
Got any advice? Google reviews? Red/Green flags?
I live in a good sized city. There's a lot of options.
Cheers
It's really hard to find a decent shop when it's harder for the shop find technicians.
One of the shops in my area used to be bad due to the front counter person (Manager). Up saling and stuff and a total douche specifically us, Asians. The mechanics got sick of it and reported to HQ about the problems. One of the representatives of the area came in and fired the guy after 30 minutes of talking. Now, the technicians are the ones who does the talking and front counter. The manager sits back and deal with paperworks. They brought themselves back up.
If no one wants to be a tech, how do we get automotive instructors? My old auto instructor has regularly ping'd me to come instruct with him as there is a severe shortage of auto teachers
So now I am the front end and the repair guy? I better be getting 2 paychecks for that.
@@iamtheoffenderofall The best local mechanic we have has his own shop, and he attempts to write all the paper work, do 60% of the repairs himself, answer the phone, and complains he can never get anything done.
You can't talk to a customer and fix things at the same time. At some point an office secretary or service manager has a place and a purpose.
When I was still an apprentice tech, the tech teams would fight over me to complete Pre Delivery Inspections on new vehicles because that earned them 3 hrs and I could complete them in 1. Felt nice being fought over.
If you’re the express tech and you have a big parking lot and not a wait in line system, it’s pretty bad. Between each job, it can take up to 10 minutes to drive away the finished car and then go look for and pull in the next one.
In the 32 years I've been a tech, about 6 were flat rate. Not only would I never go back to flat rate, I would never work a dealership either. Far too many good, hourly pay technician jobs, because nobody wants to do it anymore.
Easy fix. All shops must be required to pay the tech for how ever many hours it takes the tech to do the job and the customer gets charged that many hours and can't complain about the price. Done!!!
worked as a meck 3 years on flat rate. small shop knew the boss. was more a learning exp then for the money. all our work was on flat rate. and i can grantee you we dident cut corners unless the customer explicitly said do it cheap as possible. and sadly that happened alot. pissed my boss off real bad. and yes sum times we lost money on repairs most the time we maid money tho. our biggest problem was customers not picking up vehicles in a timely manner. rember on a friday we had 5k in done vehicles just sitting taking up space. and was real problem cuz we knew had 5 more vehicles geting dropped off that weekend.
I always talk to service advisors as bums that can’t do what I do don’t let them get it twisted
Damn, bro. Im from Russia, working in BMW dealership, and we had exactly same problems. After two years of working here i saw exactly all this problems with dumb techs, dishonesty, and etc, and I have no idea how to fix this, the only way i can see it start to work on myself or join indy shop
Ive never worked with techs that straight up lied about doing the job before. Especially easy retail work like throttle body clean and cabin filter. I can't even understand why people would try to lie about it. Unlike warranty, most of the retail book times ive worked with have been pretty reasonable.
Great video 👍
My brother in law and his brother worked at a local Ford dealer and were very good techs that used to do 100+ weeks easy under the flat rate system but they actually did the work correctly since they had so much experience between them. Would have to know both personally to understand why I say this.
Of course dating the service manager has its own benefits 😉
Anyway that explains all the problems I still have with the Ford 10-speed transmission behind the engine (I live in a different state last decade so don’t know anyone that works at the Ford dealership.
Just got the good old: Customer Concern (enter whatever) with the findings always “Cannot Duplicate Customers Concerns At This Time” nonsense.
Flat rate also breeds hacks . I worked in the collision industry as a painter for about 10 years . You were at the mercy of the manager to make any money if he played golf on the weekends with one of the other painters in the shop. I use to turn around 90 hours of flagged paint time on a slow to moderate week at 18.5 pr hour . It was a toxic environment and I was always on my toes and afraid to take vacation and what not. I quit 7 years ago and do industrial metal fabrication for very large companies and I have plenty of vacation and good pay with a take home truck . I'm much happier
At this point in time with how complex automotive tech has become its probably best to rent bays to techs as barbers shops rent booths.
This is why i knew when by the time I was a second year that dealer and flag/book time wasnt for me..
ive got 23 years as a mechaic not all shops go off flat rate some do both you eartn min wage and anything over that day they base the pay off flat rate .. or combine it
Happened to me having to eat labor on a built C6 Z06 I put together when the machine shop that sleeved the block had a sleeve to drop and I had to pull everything back apart. To make matters worse the customer found out about the new machine shop that was repairing the block and harassed them to the point that when I got the short block back, I had to assemble more shit back on the motor than When I dropped it off. One of the many nails in the coffin as why I won't do automotive work for the general public.
The lovely thing about getting very good at turning wrenches is you can tell your boss to punch sand and quit. Pack up your stuff then do side jobs charging half of a shops rate making more than you made at the shop in 1 day what you make in a week.
Municipal fleet work is not glamorous or big money but it's a steady paycheck usually with decent benefits and a pension.
Wow if techs are throwing away cabin air filters then I would imagine the filters would eventually get clogged.
At least the independent shop I took my car, I’m pretty sure they changed the cabin air filter since they broke the soft open damper that goes on the glove box. Well at least did something. Pissed about that.
i'm an express tech for a dealer, and yeah im against flat rate. my attitude has changed 180 degrees since i went on hourly. my wife says she hasn't seen me so happy. of course im at the end of my career so im molding the guys and gals that are entry level. my biggest problem is one year a brake job might be 2 hours. a year or 2 later and its dropped to 1 hour. while the shop increased its labor rate to $170 an hour. i know guys that crank out 100 hours a week and are quite good at what they do. i've known guys that crank out 100 hours a week with a 50% return rate. the flat rate is an archaic system that needs an overhaul of some kind. but that probably wont happen because the shop makes more money with it.
What you are talking about with the wheel locks should of been taken care of with the service manager or advisor when car was drop off keys , wheel locks , alarm phone numbers etc if things are done on front end makes the back in job much easier I had a shop over 20 years try to have the shop run like a fine watch !!!
I feel like a lot of this is true. But a lot of this can be mitigated by setting expectations with your writers. Just as they have to do with the customer. they may think its a pain dealing with you at first. but soon get wise to the fact that you produce better work, have less comebacks, and more return customers. you wont die on this hill, you'll both get over it together. always maintain your integrity.
I worked in ford dealership for over 15 years quit because I had to fix all the hard.problems while other techs would screw it up on purpose so they would get the easy work got paid the same per hour I did
I have never met a service advisor who knew anything about vehicles. They tell customers a line of bullshit & that is all they are good for. I apologise to any service advisors who DO know what they are talking about.
Auto industry is a joke with flat rate. Either the customer, or the tech gets fucked, but the house always wins.
Pure facts this is why i left the dodge dealership it was the same half as work an bs politics.
I saw alot of the same stuff while working commission for several companies doing various types of work.
This is not an "automotive" issue. This is a fair employment issue.
That's what makes me mad about flat rate nobody has a rust factor figured in their time
Most folks definitely don’t know that a dealership is the last place a tech wants to be working and almost always is the last place you want to bring your car for service/repair.
Warranty only. And double check the work.
That’s not supposed to be a personal attack on a tech working at a dealership… but as this video describes… it does not reward good work, so you should not expect good work.
Find a good indy shop if you don’t then your own wrenches 🤷🏻♂️
After working flat rate, I opted to get paid by the hour so I could take my time and do it right.
At 4:55 - I strongly believe that you should honor your employer and do the work that they expect you to perform. If they incentivize you to by "...rewarding you to cut corners..." then I would humbly suggest you perform the work in the manner they expect of you. FYI - I would HAPPILY take my car to a good dealer mechanic...by dropping my car off directly to the mechanic's home and pay cash for quality work by a pro. That's what my neighbor 3 houses from me does and our neighborhood loves him because we all trust only him to work on our cars.
And that is why I only do Time and Materials.
45 years in at this time.
If they don’t like it, take it somewhere else.
I have no trouble finding Customers. Reason:
I care first and am concerned about cost second.
All of the flat rate calculations should be on a sliding scale based on where the cars are coming from. If you work for a shop in the rust belt, better count in every fastener being rusted solid. That will most certainly make a 2 hour job into a 3 hour one.
100% correct. There is reason why techs are leaving the industry and the more that do it the more the system can be fixed. Let them sweat and cave to paying techs honest steady wages instead of have them turn and burn...out. You can make 6 figures elsewhere (WITH BENEFITS) and have wrenching as a side hustle and still have time for life. It's out there because mechanics make great trainable humans.
That explains why they don't fix anything. I have had my ute for 9 years Mitsubishi Triton MQ 2015 and serviced it myself, recently the rpm would drop below what is normal every time I would come to a complete stop or the aircon cycleson and off at idle and the car feels like it is going to stall. No DTC so I bought a smoke machine and had a leak on the EGR, purchased another same issue, returned it and got a replacement, same problem leaking in the same spot, so I bit the bullet and took it to the dealer and it had to be on Thursday because that is when they do a "diagnostics".
Half a day later all they did was to connect the computer to the car to find no DTC and updated to the last version .
Did they test car? No, paid $200 and all I got, aaaaa maybe it is the EGR or valve clearance check and gave me a quote for $1850 to adjust the valve clearance. You know I booked it to get fixed. This is what they do everytime you pay and nothing gets fixed and they tell you next service we will look at it again, next service they say "we could not replicate the fault.
No incentive for the tech to do the job correctly.
I feel your pain, I hated how you do everything and some.
The car jockey gives car to customers and they get the tip!!! Crazy! Te dealers sux
Now I remember why I stopped working as a tech at the dealership
It all went to hell after the fast and the furious
It pays shit even if you’re certified
@@StockTurboN20 I quit and went to go work at DINAN
Could you imagine doing a water leak warranty on a General motors product And it pays .1 😂
25 years in this greed driven industry. Way too long. Left last year. Best move ever. Fought too long and hard to do right surrounded by thieves. Quantity first. Set new sales or service records, congrats you set the new monthly goal. Want to make more money. Sell more.
I made good money honestly for a long time due to a strong product line and an unusually good crew of people but as it slowly grew into a money monster it just got worse and worse
I had tow truck drivers threatening to not bring me work at their own shop if I didn’t tip them lol and when I was the last mechanic there I said they can eat shit and I wouldn’t work on their cars since they tried to be scummy from day one.
thanks for speaking up💯🧡
plumbing this sounds like service plumbing
I believe you. Sad dishonest world.