Did the Bishops cause Pope Francis's Latin Mass Ban? w/ Fr. Gerald Murray & Diane Montagna
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 พ.ค. 2022
- Watch the full interview here: • Navigating the Crises ...
Fr. Murray explains how many bishops were not in support of the Latin Mass restrictions in "Traditionis Custodes."
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Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger ('97):
"I AM OF THE OPINION, TO BE SURE, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden, and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent. Can it be trusted any more about anything else? Won’t it proscribe tomorrow what it prescribes today? "
@@carolynkimberly4021 It was more than nice words. He actually did grant the old rite much more generously to all those who desired it.
@@carolynkimberly4021 agreed
the Pope ALONE Judges the Liturgy and modifies it according to his own prerogative....
"It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone⭕ enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites⭕, as also to modify⭕ those he judges to require modification."
-----ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON THE SACRED LITURGY, MEDIATOR DEI
@@HolyRedeemerElDorado Unfortunately, Pope Benedict XVI did not celebrate the traditional Latin Mass in public.
My personal opinion that I rarely see voiced is that I’d rather see the NO mass made more serious as the actual documents of Vatican II call for: chant and sacred polyphony, ad orientam. I would personally not feel nearly as strong a desire for TLM if NO masses were performed according to the actual council directives.
In other words, it’s not so much Latin itself that is the draw for me to TLM so much as the seriousness in contrast to how NO masses are often schmaltzy and worldly.
The actual changes to the NO missal in readings I think are actually quite good and beneficial.
@@drkissinger1 talk to your priest! The more people who stand up and ask for reverence, the more (hopefully) it will be provided.
@@matthewmorris9532Passing of ✌️ peace during Consecration is such a distraction. Could it possibly be moved to the Confeteor at the beginning of Mass as we confess “that I offense you, my brothers and sisters.”? Focus on the Real apresence bus on the altar not everyone all about you!
@@drkissinger1 This 100%. The changes to the missal - I don't agree with all of them (that for eg. you can't have both the Asperges and Kyrie in the same mass, and the loss of the offertory antiphon.) But there's a lot of good, such as the three year lectionary, the mysterium fidei, and now, the elevated language of the 2011 ICEL translation. With proper reverence and Gregorian chant - the smells and bells if you will - there would not be so much resistance to it.
@@johnholmes6667in the missal, it states that the kiss of peace MAY be done if deemed appropriate. In other words, it is completely optional to add. Just like the offertory prayers being said out loud. It can be said silently even if it’s a low mass and no music.
I am 36 years old and grew up in the Novus Ordo. I saw adherence to the Missal of PAUL VI and gross abuses. mostly abuses. but my first TLM was like a spiritual splash of cold life affirming water flowing from the side of Christ.
Kind of like living waters ?.
Great vídeo, thanks so much for doing these videos. I'm from Chile and have no chance to go to a TLM, so sad. I didnt even knew they existed hadnt it been for the lock downs where I was forced yo watch the Mass on line. So this is how I was introduced to it. Praying for Holy Mother Church!
It’s not about the flavour as I like TLM MORE THAN NOVUS
ITS ABOUT THE FAITH AND DOCTRINE..we can’t have flavours in it
Why is the direction of our church based on a survey? And particularly of those “Catholics” who are very poorly catechized?
Thank you… God bless & Protect you all in abundance!
Appreciating this conversation as it is revealing & articulating this information & ensuing thoughts better than I ever could.
Your channel is a blessing ❤
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever!
Nice interview clip, brief with a salient discussion of a very important topic to those of us who love the Extraordinary Form. Have to tell you, Matt (moderator), that actually breaking a long, heavy interview into sections is easier to watch and digest than to sit through a 1.5-2 hr interview straight. Fr Murray and Ms Mantagana provide very logical, canonincally sound and researched positions; I agree that most bishops who see the fruits of the TLM in their dioceses, especially concurrently losing parishioners in NO parishes are just leaving it alone. Traditiones Custodes was very poorly constructed, confused in its directives, and is no credit to any legacy Pope Francis might think he his leaving the Church.
Yes you are right. But i want the full podcast also becuse i listen to these podcast during work. Omso its great not to have to pull up my phone every 5 minutes
Pray for spread and preserve of tlm mass and for Pope Francis and all clergy and the Catholic Church 🙏❤
Diane does great work! Fr. Murray is so clear, need to support these fine people
The Book of Truth. Internetgebetskreisaccueil
In much the same way the Soviet Politburo did good work in obfuscation and lying, but in no other way.
GOOD Informative Video!!!!
Yes freedom Is the Answer! Thank you Father Murray!
My main issue with Novus Ordo Masses is the lack of reverence and silence for the sacrament. Prayers are shouted and sung to the world, like God can only hear you when you sing, there's no innate mystery and separation of the divine and corporeal through language or singing. I attend Novus Ordo, mostly because Australia has very few Latin Masses, but even then I can see this quieter side of the masses being taken in at times, and my first Mass had those moments, whether on accident or on purpose. I went to the ordaining of a young deacon, and I gained more from that evening mass, with its moments or pure traditional prayers and silent prayers, than I have from any of the Charismatic Masses I've gone to, in terms of spiritual revelation. Even one of the Charismatic Masses I went to took this more somber and melancholic and reverential treatment, and that too was spiritually enlightening.
That's not the main reason. It a Protestant way of worship.
@@johnpglackin345 and here is the case in point that the Pope was talking about. You are the problem.. you are the reason it was banned.
@@stephenferry3017 so we can worship God anyway we want. It does not matter if we might be breaking the First and Third Commandments. You are why Our Lord chastise us with the pandemic. The pandemic was because we have not return to the Traditional Latin Mass. The deaths due to the pandemic is on the liberal priests and laity who do not want to worship God His way.
@@johnpglackin345 thats certainly your opinion and why it has no basis in fact.
@@johnpglackin345 , That is not true. Go to a Baptist Church or a Pentecostal Church and you will discover that the Mass of the Common tongue is certainly not like Protestant worship service. Do you believe that only the Latin Mass is valid?
George and I have discussed TLM… the mass I attend is in Arabic and Aramaic…which is pretty cool come to think of it. But TLM is beautiful
th-cam.com/video/uQ_mEzOlkAw/w-d-xo.html
It is a great shame that the pope and many bishops have such a distaste for the TLM.
No ...but many don't like how its celebration is interpreted.
because the STench of IDeological beliefs are becoming rampant in TLM.... Fundamentalism and Disobedience against the Church is infesting the TLM....
@@krishyyfan5153 That's completely untrue.
You might try to make that argument, but when you compare belief in the Eucharist for TLM Mass-goers and Novus Ordo Mass-goers, you tell me what you find.
@@SuperZebezian 🙄Your Eucharis is Sacrilegious if you celebrate it in Disobedience against Church authority or Vatican 2....
Did you know that Prophet Samuel compares REbellion to Idolatry??
(1 Samuel 15: 22-23)
"But Samuel replied: “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying❌ the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams. For rebellion is like the sin of divination,❌ and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.❌"
Sure......which is why the Pope was handling out new prefaces and giving permission for pre-1954 Holy Week liturgy. And why he is fine with the FSSP doing it. Totally because he hates it and not because Kwasniewski, Joseph Shaw, Una Voce as a whole, and many, many others have been trying to reverse Vatican II for decades now. Totally not that.
Be serious.
Matt, just stopped by to say, I like your outfit in this video!
1:40 so much for synodality…the majority of bishops didn’t want to change anything.
The majority of bishops of the small selection of the survey she found. And lo and behold, she only got a hold of the US bishops. So what bishops in Africa and South America ie the places Catholicism is actually growing, aren't on her list. Fun fact, those continents do not have a ton of old masses. Wonder why that is? Wonder why it is the US and UK that have the lions share?
@@stephenferry3017 The church is not growing in South America. Certainly the opposite.
@@redcatofdeath it is. Not as much as Africa, but far more than the US and Europe where it is either slightly rising or outright declining.
And guess where the fewest old masses are said? Africa and Asia, the places where Catholicism is growing the most.
If there was this "hunger" for the old mass, the old Ecclesia Dei communities would not have the numbers of single Franciscan chapter.
@@stephenferry3017 It's outright declining in the US and Europe without a doubt, there's no question as to it rising. It's declining in South America too.
Christ is King! Long live the Latin Mass!
The TRUTH is NOT something but SOMEONE and the TRUTH WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.
If this was all based off of a survey of bishops, that's absurd beyond reason. Something so important shouldn't be left up to a survey.
Novus ordo mass is not what it was intended to be from Vatican ll. Something went really wrong. Watch the Mass of the ages in TH-cam and you'll see. Novus ordo mass is an approved mass, but when you see everything they removed from the old mass to accommodate the revolutionary people into the church, you then will understand why there is such a lack in reverence and holiness in many parishes.
However, I also want to say that in the new mass, there are many holy priests and bishops and we should pray for them and for the whole church of Christ.
Listen here's what I'm trying to say, young people actually respect power. They would actually appreciate tradition kicking modernity right off its high horse, but it would have to actually do it.
"You can't be half a gangster."
I wonder what the comparison is of Mass observance in the Romance language countries versus the Germanic language countries? It seems to me that Latin would be much more familiar to Romance language countries, while English speaking countries would be much more distant from it.
@@carolynkimberly4021What is a "Supper service"?
@@carolynkimberly4021 Luther and the Anglican Communion both believe in the Real Presence ...so I don't think "Supper service" is adequate when considering the Lutheran or Anglican traditions. Your ideas expressed on the Novus Ordo are hardly consonant with the GIRM or the CCC. What is "Actual presence"?
@@tomgreene2282 Protestants claim they believe in the Real Presence but is is NOT the same as what Catholics believe.
Versus populum is standard in the GIRM?
@@tomgreene2282 Lutheran understanding if real presence is consubstantiation. Half a miracle. Many Anglucans believe in the true presence, but they don't have it, as their orders are not valid. And it is not an across the board teaching .
That is, Latin is the mother tongue of French, Italian, Spanish, etc.
Encouraging! Thanks. Am I the only one who objects to the lack of absolution after the confiteor in the new mass
Good to know. Bishops are getting a bad rap. This will hopefully alleviate the situation.🙏
I agree with Fr.
The Latin Mass here in our Diocese is THRIVING AND OVERFLOWING with young families. Young people are coming into the Catholic faith through the Extraordinary Form….incredible that folks want to see it go away.
Soooo, pope Francis said that Traditionis Custodes was based on the will of the bishops and it’s shown that that is not true. Is that a violation of the eighth commandment??
Has anyone here even considered why the church felt the need to write sacrosanctum concilium?
Probably not.
They have and they hate it. Kwasniewski and Shaw qnd the other rad trads will pay lip service to it as a means to get what they want, but they hate it along with the rest of Vatican II.
It was written as a suggestion, which can be superseded if there is a Pastoral need to do so.
I wish father Murray would be interviewed by Taylor Marshall
Can we call it a 'Latin Mass Ban ?' If we are calling into question the Bishops predilection against TLM, then can we say that him allowing the Bishops to restrict it is the same as a ban ?
Fr. was drowned out!
I love the Latin Mass, but few walk away being fed by the Word of God. Most of the faithful do not understand what is being said, and reverence comes from within each person. I attend a Parish that is overflowing with attendance having 5 services, within the church that seats 650 people. The 10:15 Mass there are people lining the walls and kneeling on the floor. Prior to each Mass you can hear a pin drop, as well as after Holy Communion has been served. For more than 25 years, 24 hours every day Adoration before Christ on the Alter takes place as two assigned prayer come, and other members come in & out each day to the Lord. Mass is celebrated at 8:30 & 5:30 everyday in the Church after out growing the 64 seat Chapel, which is now used for Adoration. My Diocese produces more Priest than we need, so we send Priest to other Diocese where they are most needed. I have visited most Parishes within my Diocese and I have found reverence in all them. At Pentecost the faithful spoke in numerous tongues, the Holy Spirit did not set a limit of only Latin. You be reverent and recognize each Mass has benefits too your heart, and too your soul. God bless you all ❤️ Timothy 🙏🏼🎚🙏🏼
Most important point is Eucharistic mysticism which is totally ignored in people face mass & making the Mass orchestration. Latin must learn from the Orthodox Church at least from the ecumenical perspective. Why Latin Church looked only to protestentism for ecumenism?
Traditionis Custodes is Pope Francis' attempt to "burn the boats". Without a way back, we are forced to move forward. The Eucharistic Sacrifice is the source and summit of the whole Christian Life. The source in the liturgical mass, and the summit as we are transformed in our lives to bring the Gospel to our ailing world.
Exactly!!! It has power.
Which is why he let's the FSSP still do it, still allows it in dioceses on a limited basis, gave it new prefaces, and allowed the pre-1954 Holy week liturgy?
Could have been folks like Una Voce and Peter Kwasniewski trying to literally undo Vatican II and replace the ordinary form with the old mass? Couldn't possibly been for the stated reason, right?
Be serious. Trads did this to themselves just like Fr. Ripperger predicted in 2019.
@@stephenferry3017 The point is that the extra-ordinary and the ordinary form have become symbols of division with the laity. This is analogous to some people still wearing masks as much to do as a necessity as a symbol of division. However, it is the extra-ordinary form which informs the ordinary form.
Additionally, St. Augustine rebuked Donatism in the 4th century. Regardless of the music, the incense, the congregational impropriety, if the ordained priest says those words of consecration, the host and wine become the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ.
The Trads should work to inform the ordinary form as properly understood, and the people who wish change should work to inform the Baptized that this is the Eucharistic Sacrifice which should send us out of our comfort into the ailing world to bring them Christ Jesus.
The Harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
I would rather see the TLM made into a Liturgical Rite in the Church just as one sees with the Eastern Rites Catholic Churches or a certain Western Catholic Rite Churches, (the Anglican Rite) of the Catholic Church, thus ending the liturgy wars.
The Liturgy is the Church's work ...the sacraments are God's gracious giving. Humanae Vitae..."What the Pope says"....Liturgical regulation "What the bishops say"
Bless Pope Benedict XVI. It seems like a difficult question to navigate and difficult to follow up John Paul II who was such a prolific writer and philosopher. Still, it seems dubious now if he understood what the bishops and laity both wanted. Never been to TLM and definitely need to review Vatican II and the Catechism. Lots to chew on.
Because I am a big sinner and became a lost sheep, Christ came looking for me and brought me back to the NO mass with the spirit of the neo catecumenal way. I could never fit in with the TLM because I would feel more like a spectator rather than a participant.
Hmm. I understand that the Neo Catecumenical Mass is held separately from the main body of the parish congregation, usually on Saturdays, and non-members are barred from attending it. Also, that all members have the right to preach the homily during your Mass. Are these correct?
I know that Popes JPII and Benedict XVI blessed the NeoCats, but I don't know if they approved of how the Neocat Mass is done. Should you really separate yourselves from the rest of us sinners?
Are women allowed to deliver the homily at your Mass? That is against the GIRM rubrics, per St. Paul's admonition in 1Cor. that women should remain silent at Mass. Meaning, they may do the readings of the epistle and the psalms, but not the Gospel or preach their own interpretations of the readings. In fact, no lay person, man or woman, may proclaim the Gospel and do the homily at a Catholic Mass. Only deacons, priests, bishops, and the Pope may.
I was also told (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the Neocatechumenicals give each other communion, i.e., everybody becomes an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion (EMHC) at your Mass. It was said, the ciborium and the cup are passed from hand to hand during communion at your Mass.
The use of EMHC, unless during emergencies, in the Novus Ordo has been considered an abuse, as only consecrated hands must touch the sacred species. Although it's a world-wide practice, it does not mean it has ceased to be an abuse.
I'm particularly glad to see our young, conservative assistant pastor in my parish celebrating the NO with him only giving out holy Communion. No EMHC in his Mass, but of course, it's not the case with the other priests.
@@marietta1335 yes it's true the Eucharist is celebrated on a Saturday night as passover was traditionally celebrated at dusk, almost like another mass time. The bread is consecrated and broken by the priest and If needed the acolytes help to distribute the body of Christ, just like you would see in the Sunday mass. It's the same for the blood of Christ, only one cup for all, but covid has stopped us from sharing as we are obedient to the Bishops instructions. No one can give a homily its the priest job, but we are invited to resonate on the word and what it means for our own personal lives, only if you wish to do so. It's not true that the gospel should only be preached by the priests, bishops or clergy. Infact Christ commands us through our baptism to go and announce the gospel, evangelisation is not reserved for the clergy, but for all the baptised. Remember that the early church was built on the blood of the martyrs because of their own personal witness of Christ active in their lives. Yes the way has statutes and is blessed and recognised by the church. It's just too bad that people who listen to rumours never try to seek the truth !
Latin mass should have a place as Latin connects all Catholics.
Are all those who attended the Latin mass understood every words of the Father's prayers? We worship the God of truth. How is He going to accept the "Amma" of a Christine when this Christian does not know a word of Lantin?
The faithful that attend the traditional Latin Mass are being caricatured in political fashion. Right vs. Left. The Church is not political.
It is the body of Christ.
One of the reasons why Francis supressed the Latin Mass worldwide is that there is a tradition to say the prayer to St Michael after the Mass. His master Satan doesn't like it (please read the prophecy of Blessed Catherine Emmerich about the Two Popes).
+++
Revelation 12:7-9 (NET) Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
But the dragon was not strong enough to prevail, so there was no longer any place left in heaven for him and his angels.
So that huge dragon - the ancient serpent, the one called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world - was thrown down to the earth, and his angels along with him.
+++
St Michael Prayer
St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen
I think TLM is a rallying point for trad/ conservative Catholics. As the Pope continues to bless and accept the gay radical agenda people would migrate to the traditional icon of TLM. It has power, and they know it.
bless really??...did not the Congregation BAN the blessing of homosexual unions??...
Pope does not play around with DEMONIC ideologies of conservatism and liberal....He is a Catholic....IF you are a conservative, yet a REbel at the same time, you will get the punishment from ST. PEter....
And yet, he excommunicated a priest for making that claim, that he and Pope Francis were both promoters of LGBT.
Very confusing.
Wsed
why not increase more Dominican Rite, Carmelite Rite, and Capuchin Rite Latin Masses? You are not breaking any rules and they are beautiful in their own way. Think about it....
That's as bad as Edward Norton's bum on holy water, even worse. Look guys, sorry, I kind of like English chicks better than Irish. That's my only opinion in this... Italian chicks??? Gwen Stefani??? Does that count?
Novus ordo just feels so "culty" and like trained seals with all the hand gestures and forced responses. I like the TLM so much more.
My issue is bishops will not allow some Latin in the NO and ad orientem. That’s why we have this huge pushback
@awe yea It was thrown together during Vatican II
Hand gestures? About the only hand gesture you need is folded hands. At the Our Father, you stand. At the sign of peace, 'you fold your hand and bow to your neighbors saying, "Peace be with you." At Communion, you open your mouth. Otherwise, you employ feet gestures and knee gestures, which are the proper gestures at Mass.
"Forced responses?" Patrick, the Mass - whether the Novus Ordo or the Vetus Ordo- is a ritual. The responses are a part of the ceremony, a part of the Rubrics, a part of the biblically-based holy words of the Mass. They are neither forced nor invented (ideally). Rituals stay the same for a long, long time.
@@marietta1335 For the hand gestures, I mean the beating on the chest, "lift up your heart", and raising both hands during the Our Father. I came back to the church recently, and we didn't do any of that when I was younger.
The forced responses are after the first reading when they say " The response is...". They then read off a list of phrases--not even intentions. It doesn't flow at all and feels forced.
The novus ordo was invented during Vatican II. I had an opportunity to go to a TLM. It all felt much more natural.
Francis is a fool.
Banning of trads is simply an operational step in bergoglios engineering of the intended One World Religion. Next will be banning of crosses & key bleliefs in chrislam since both will be offensive in the chosen location of the current developing modern temple.
Dude...Chick Tracts? Why Chick Tracts?
@@Jared-cm2wv The pope has already openly apostatized from the Christian religion by admitting he worships the same god as the Mohammedan and the Jew. If he has openly abandoned the Christian God to worship this demon, why would he hold fast to any of the traditions of Christianity?
Sekhem, please don't criticise what you don't understand. The rite is called the "Latin Rite" for a reason.
Oops, sorry, I posted this in the long place. It's an answer to Joseph below. I'll repost it there.
TLM isn't even that old tho. Why isn't anyone trying to bring back an earlier form of mass?
By what metric? The TLM can trace itself with only a few changes back to Pope Leo and likely beyond.
@@Deathbytroll correct me if I'm wrong, but i was always under the impression TLM began in the mid-late 1500s
@@pickenchews the earliest codification of the Roman rite goes back to 604 and Pope Gregory. Father Adrian Fortescue, noted liturgical expert, can trace it in general farther back and even says it's one of the if not the oldest liturgical rite
Maybe the byzantine rite
@@pickenchews this is a common misconception. The Latin Mass was merely standardized at the council of Trent. The Mass itself can be traced back to St. Gregory in 600. Portions of the Mass are even older.
To all the Bishops who Want to Disobey the Directives of Pope Francis....Remember the words of the Prophet Samuel and his Warnings....
(1 Samuel 15: 22-23)
"But Samuel replied: “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying❌ the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams. For rebellion is like the sin of divination,❌ and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.❌"
So how do you justify the abuses and outrages of this poor excuse for a pope ?
@@RickW-HGWT she probably doesn't because the things you mentioned only exist in a media bubble dedicated ot manufacturing controversy out of nothing.
@@stephenferry3017 Nice of you to answerer for her , it was a vapid response ,banal in its presentation, you should take some time to construct a compelling response , it would take time and thought though. So pope f has not betrayed our Chinese brethren, he did not honor the pacamama in the Vatican gardens ? there are so many other of his offenses and outrages , your response reminds me of the saying " ignorance is bliss" . That your defending this moral imbecile who has done so much damage is sad , but it just shows how much work there is to be done, if you fallow this fool to hell , its on you.
@@RickW-HGWT Do you have a better excuse?
@@marietta1335 I am watching "Mass of the Ages " Episode 2 , its good you should see it.
You guys are so charmingly polite when you're saying that we are governed in the Church by career criminals, liars and shysters whose hatred of the ancient Faith and desire to utterly annihilate it is equalled only by their desire to serve their carnal urges. Nothing we do or don't do is going to solve anything until all of that is gone.
I refer to the leadership under this pontificate as heritics ,perverts and traitors, look at who he surrounds himself with. With all the problems of the church his ire is directed at the most faithful.
@@RickW-HGWT Don't forget crime. They're very keen on financial crime too.
@@hilarywhite2953 Amen, thanks, heads up Peters Pence is coming up, in my own diocese the Cardinal McIntyre Fund for Charity is also coming up. Check out Charity Navigators rating on that one that should be a trustworthy charity from the church. Too many scandals to remember !.
If you think one form of Liturgy is better or superior than the other, you're in a serious trouble and need to open more your spiritual eyes. May the Lord give us all the chance to be grateful to be able to attend Holy Mass when are thousands that can't.
@@carolynkimberly4021 that's exactly how wrong you are. Why a catholic can say something like that without feel to believe that is superior because of thinking that!? Lack of pray, charity, discern and spiritual guide. So, you think that Jesus came less to the altar's bread and wine to become it into His Own Body? What a poor soul!
@@DanyTV79 It's not a question of whether or not the consecration is valid. It's a question of literally everything surrounding it. If you look at the development of either rite, the sources of such, and the implementation thereof, it becomes clear that the critique focuses far more on one than the other.
It's also not about superiority of people. We're talking about what the liturgy teaches, its theology, and its reverence. How can an organic liturgy that developed over millennia, reaching back to Apostolic times be compared to a liturgy comprised in many cases haphazardly and designed deliberately to be more "ecumenical" and less Catholic? For proof of these things, see Fr. Louis Bouyer's Memoirs relating the development of Eucharistic Prayer II, and Bugnini's statement that his aim in designing the New Mass was “to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” (L'Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965)
I'd challenge you to research the history of either rite, attend either for a period of time, and tell me truthfully that they're equal. It's not possible.
@@drstewart this is the DEMONIC belief that Pope Francis is fighting against...The belief that one Liturgy is superior than the other....Is the Prophet MAlachi a heretic when he declares the Liturgy of the UNIVERSAL nations is PURE ??
"(Malachi 1:11)
My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place❌ incense and pure offerings ❌will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty."
🙄How can the Mass of the 1.2 Billion Catholics of Many nations be suddenly IMPURE , and only a Small number of TLM Cults have the Pure worship??
🙄
The NO is valid, I compare it to a happy meal, the TLM being a feast. The TLM and Eastern Rites are more reverent, at mass we are at the foot of the cross at Calvary, the NO masses are too often filled with abuses that distract from the reverence and purpose of the mass. A high mass is more reverent then a low mass, so different liturgies are superior, look at a mass from 1965 , then look at a mass from 1975, see what was lost.
@@RickW-HGWT what is reverent and who determines what reverent is??
YOU??
Even David dancing in 2 Samuel 6 while sacrificing in front of the Ark of the Covenant is considered Reverent by Yaweh....
People seriously need to learn their catechism so they are not just jumping to conclusions and bashing their very own Pope.
To bash the Pope is to bash the Roman Catholic Church.
Don't be the ignorant foolish Catholic
I didn't give it a thumbs down, but I don't like it or any of your other 2 minute wonders. I want to hear the whole conversation, but you provide no link to get there. Stop teasing me with these tiny peep shows.
Latin mass is the only mass I'll go to.
I still pray my rosary. I still study and read the Bible.
Latin or bust.
So you'd willingly cut yourself off from the Eucharist because the Mass doesn't have your chosen aesthetic?
Thats not Faith.
@@stephenferry3017 it's called sedevacantism friend; and there is Orthodox churches......... That is faith
@@NicholasKramas so you'd turn to heretics or schismatics.....over aesthetic preferences.
That's nuts.
@@stephenferry3017 i think the Vatican 2 is heresy, frankly
@@NicholasKramas sure buddy. And Bugnini was a secret freemason with access to the Jewish space laser built by the lizardmen at the center of the earth.
Keep England out of it young lady! We support and love our pope in uk- yes of course you get the odd nit picker or two but most of us accept he is the Vicar of Christ and honour him for his office and his compassion, a virtue that hadn't come over much in the papacy in the past! If the Mass is in the V vernacular or in latin, it's still THE MASS- wish you Americans could get hold of that and stop trying to brand it according to you own personal likes or dislikes-leave the bishops out of it too!
Well said in my view , but then I live nearby ...in Ireland. Americans have their canon law and interpret Scripture as if it were the Finance Act!
How do you support this moral imbecile who betrayed our Chinese brethren to the ccp ?, he is a shame to the church and his office. His outrages ,insults , lack of moral clarity are driving people out of the church
Why is she interrupting this priest. She is disrespectful!!!
I fear too many people prefer the TLM because "if I can't understand it, it must be profund."
It’s actually pretty easy to understand a TLM, that’s the whole point of the missile, and having been to both although not as much as I would like in terms of the TLM I will tell you that the atmosphere of sanctity and reverence is greater in The Latin mass, although perhaps this might be down to something as simple as not having some Doof on a guitar playing during the distribution of the most holy sacrament.
Nope. It's nothing to do with that. For starters, it's not hard to understand at all (all the Latin parts have their English translations right next to them in the missal.) It's because it is far more beautiful and far more reverent. I do go to the Novus Ordo from time to time, but I almost never get the same beauty and sense of the sacred that I get in the old rite.
@awe yea Actually the reverence and silence as you would have at Calvary is the best part of the mass. Campfire music, guitars and other abuses and distractions insults the Lord and the faithful.
In the 21st century, it’s quite easy to get a translation of the Latin Missal into many languages.
@awe yea Not all of the NO , but I have found it is more open to abuses. That asinine sign of peace should be done away with as it is a unneeded distraction, we are at the foot of the cross and we should act like it. I question if at these masses they are aware of that, with the lack of knowledge and belief in the real presence I doubt they are. I find more solemnity at the TLM or Eastern Rite church's.
"Let people do what they want, that's what JPII and Benedict said"
What awful advice. Letting people do what they want is EXACTLY how we got to our current condition, and especially quoting heretical popes like the two above.
Augustus, Popes JPII and Benedict XVI said what? Pray, tell when and where and under what circumstances?
@@marietta1335 JPII was an awful, abject heretic. Benedict was guilty probably of ignorance more than anything else. JPII was a Protestant, he believed all people were already saved. He hosted a "Pan-religious prayer meeting", which included Satanists, where crucifixes were removed or covered up. He believed the Old Covenant, i.e. Judaism, is still valid and was not supplanted by Christ. Benedict believed that people could be saved outside the Church, also a heresy, but compared to JPII he was a traditionalist...
if they are moving towards PiusX, their devotion to Catholic Church and Latin Mass is ver very superficial
Worship should be in the language of the people. In Germany, it should be German, in America it should be English, and so on. The Latin mass was designed to keep the illiterate and superstitious peasants in awe, as if the priest was speaking to God in a language only they understood. The same goes for the incense, the ringing of bells at the consecration, the altar rail past which only the priests and altar boys could go, the intricate robes, the gold chalice, the kissing of the missal, and all the rest. Protestants have it right -- keep it simple.
That is a grave misunderstanding of the traditional liturgy, the point of it is not to separate the people from God, but to separate the sacred and the people who take part in it from the mundane world, and to me it seems advantageous and beautiful that regardless of whether someone is German, or French, or Brazilian, they could celebrate this right of the church in the same language, a right as universal as the church herself.
Perhaps I don’t know what young people want being 23 myself, but in the few Latin rite masses I have been able to get to, I have noticed that the atmosphere of reverence especially for the Eucharist is generally greater than what I see at Novus ordo masses and buy quite a significant amount.
@@misha-elministries5246
Thanks for telling me you’re a protestant without telling me you’re a protestant.
That soul quote somewhat under minds your point, the term brother and sister in Hebrew culture it was used very broadly at that time, this could have meant cousins, step siblings, really anyone sufficiently closely related to Jesus by marriage.
Also it’s pretty weird that of all the dogmatic problems you could have with the church, the first one you go for is the perpetual virginity of Mary, like you could go for something more obvious like the papacy or the real presents, but you go for something like the perpetual virginity of Mary because the defenses for that are less rocksolid because it’s just not something that’s normally brought up in these discussions.
Why? The Greeks, Armenians, Use ancient classical languages but the Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian and other Balkan orthodox churches use old Church Slavonic. To hear the RCC extraordinary mass chanted in Latin is the most transcendent experience. You need only get a missal that is Latin and your language. Surely you aren’t so lazy as not to be able to follow along when you have both languages right in front of you. And those old chants and hymns weren’t written for contemporary languages. They were written in and for Latin. Same thing with the Byzantine catholic and Eastern Orthodox. They used old Church Slavonic. It is beautiful and holy.
The practices of heretics and apostates are not the objective standards Catholics need to follow-same goes for laziness and ignorance.
@@darius8783 well when the heresy and abomination is coming from the top , from the heads of the church it is every Christian’s duty to flee satan. The Bible tells us that.