AIR-BAG HELPER SPRINGS. ANY GOOD? | ASPW 4xOverland
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- What do I think of airbag helper springs for 4wds? Welcome to "4xoverland", ASPW's overlanding and 4WD channel. The world's first global 4WD adventure motoring channels.
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Airbags when mounted like in 10:40 is an absolute nightmare for the frame. Shows not the slightest understanding of swelling/oscillating forces. IF at all, the load must be distributed to a maximum of frame length. And then still the basic failure is: the vehicle is overloaded and will brake.
Very common mistake: big cabins on a pickup. Its not working, needs stronger springs, will break when used even in light offroad driving. It will. You'll completely lose the car in the midth of your trip because the frame will be welded to get you home finally and you have to replace it.
Wrong, go look at how the Ram 3500 comes from the factory with the air leveling suspension. Airbags mounted exactly like in the photo.
I disagree
@@travisschultz874I don't mean factory settings
I have Air bags fitted to my Hilux and I think they are great. I agree with Andrew that most chassis breaking is because of airbags but when you speak to those people you would find out that they overload their vehicles and pump the airbags to the max to prevent the car from sagging at the back. I use my Hilux for a daily driver so my OME suspension is set up for daily driving and medium loads but when I have the back loaded with our diving gear, some other basics and have the caravan hooked up I use the airbags to support the leave pack at the back. I never inflate the airbags more that a quarter of its capacity but find that it give additional stability while towing and I can control the sagging at the back to ensure the caravan in running straight. This does not affect my ride comfort as my Hilux drives like a dream loaded or unloaded so having airbags can be beneficial but it requires self restraint not to think you vehicle is now all of a sudden capable of carrying load it was never designed for. Thanks.
Hi Andrew,
Airbags are a hit and miss. We have used them for over 12 years in mining vehicles. With that knowledge and seeing what fails I use this method.
I figure out what rate springs the vehicle needs when fully loaded, I remove around 15 to 25% of that spring rate then rate my mechanical springs to that.
The last remaining 15 to 25% we fit airbags to carry that extra. This give you the best balance I believe with the drivability and ride.
It also allows x3 sections of the chassis to carry it as even as possible.
😎
G'day Ty, love your channel (even though you're a Effy lover!!! hahaha).
You're probably right when it comes to trucks with a bloody good chassis like yours and mine (I have a Chev Silverado 3500 srw...single rear wheel).
However, when it comes to the little butter boxes that most people buy (Ranger, Hilux, D-max etc), I would urge caution about the "3 points of contact" idea. Those chassis aren't built with the idea of having upward force (ie: the air spring) applied directly above the axle location. Fifteen years ago I had a Patrol with 6.5 Chev V8 diesel, cut-down to a dual cab and managed to crack the chassis because I over-engineered the rear springs....and they were COILS so actually meant to have the load placed on that section of the chassis.
The 15 to 25% overload idea has merit, but too many numpties would still manage to just keep adding more weight and STILL bend the chassis I reckon.
The simply basics, keep it simple as its best. 100% agree with him.
This Chanel is not about keeping it simple. It's about carrying as much stuff as u want and then mitigate for it.
Air bags in coils make perfect sense if your occasionally towing a heavy caravan or similar. They do not affect the ride if used correctly. The trick is not to inflate the bags to their maximum pressure and overload the chassis. You don't need to pump them up hard to get back to normal ride height, just settle for lifting the back a little to recover some of the suspension travel. I never inflate mine beyond half their rated pressure. I wouldn't use them on a leaf sprung vehicle though, as the chassis isn't designed for the additional load point.
I’ve been considering the airbag option for my wrangler because I’m towing an overland trailer and was just this week doing my homework. Shocking coincidence that you posted this video with such perfect timing. I have a towing problem and pretty certain now airbags are the answer.
Sorry Andrew, I can't help but try and pick holes in your argument.
Air bags on my Leaf patrol are mounted to where the bump stop was. This area would be engineered to handle the severe forces that are put through the chassis when bottoming out.
Marty from Perth
Wait! The chassis in a whole is made to distribute the load onto the suspension. Yes there are fixed points, but other points can be used properly to help relief the pressures of heavy loads.
I have both air spring helpers in coil and leaf spring applications. They are both adjustable with a special pump and the ride quality is perfect. In empty I lower the pressure to let the springs work, and loaded I increase the pressure to help stop the saggin so my headlights are not pointed up.
When done properly with quality parts air spring helpers are the best on and off the road.
I load two dirtbikes into the back of my defender 130 and with the ome long travel springs and air helper bags in the springs the ride is pleasant all the tine. In my tahoe I load it full with kids, gear and tow and the air bags in the coils give the back a boost and ride quality is not harsh at all.
I am running 20psi empty and 30psi fully loaded. Everything is happy, and in the last ten yrs never broke anything, if anything my shocks last longer and my swaybars also.
Hi Andrew. Thank you for another helpful video. I have been watching your videos and films for the last two years while planning and saving for my build. After 2 years of planning I am going to be going ahead with it over the first 4 months of 2022. I have a prado 120, not the perfect overlander but it was a compromise as a family vehicle and daily driver too. Your advice has helped tremendously with my planning, given me important insights, helped me avoid some mistakes and enabled me to make more informed decisions so that I spend my tight budget in the right areas. Your films are a great inspiration. Thank you! I look forward to gaining more inspiration and insights from you for many years to come.
thanks Andrew very helpful as always keep these videos coming i enjoy watching them
I use airbags when towing a Caravan, 20 psi does the trick.👍 They do work well in coils as long as you dont put too much air in them. With 20 psi, the coils still compress and extend no problem at all.
Had air bags in my 76 very nice as I use them when I use it to go camping. But took your advice on the 79. And had the suspension totally redone with a full load and it's a great ride.
All areas of the chassis rails are designed for carrying load. In fact adding pressure to other areas spreads the overall pressure reducing the likelihood of failure. If your load is going to break the vehicle it's going to regardless off wether you fit an air again setup
Well said. I would put money on that the breakages are from people who have overloaded the vehicle then overinflated the air helpers to deal with the overloading.
Well i've heard it all now, the chassis at the point directly above the axle has been designed for incredibly high impact loads as the springs compress as a pothole or washaway is unexpectedly hit. Just imagine the 900kgs or so on just one rear wheel whacking into the "bump stop" at high velocity as the standard shocks and springs of any vehicle give up the ghost at this time of impact. Yes Andrew the "bump stop" is a lump of rubber on many vehicles, some actually have an internal hollow and have an extended shape to soak up and slow down the velocity of the impact on part of the chassis well and truly designed for these loads. I reckon go have a talk to an actual chassis engineer and ask him/her about bump stop impacts and the possible high velocity loads this point is designed for. Worth a video maybe to remove the airbag stigma which they do not deserve. Remember many of us out here do not need superflexible leaf springs for superb offroad articulation which airbags definitely reduce, been there done that. We need and adjust our suspensions in many ways to give us that superb corrugated roads (and towing) ride for thousands of outback highway kilometres, been there doing that.
Go stick well designed airbags on the vehicle (maybe ones that do not permit shockers to bottom out at low pressures), run at lowest pressure possible when unloaded and bump it up as required to maintain a level ride when towing. Air bags at bump stop locations do not cause most chassis breakages, you should know many other issues are well up the list before the airbags take the blame, driver, speed, depth of washaways, mass of vehicle, load positioning, etc.
Airbags don't reduce articulation. Unless you didn't put the cross over tap in.
@@jarlnieminen4307 After market air bags are individual units and don't have interconnecting pipes (apart from the tiny inflation hoses).
Every axle has a maximum axle weight designed by the manufacturer and modification above that need a letter of no objection from the manufacturer. Generally vehicles can carry more than their weight plate. Air suspension can be the best option if used sensibly. Automated versions to help the leaf spring are available in Europe. Sadly nobody produces an engineered kit for your vehicle in Europe (because of emissions)
@@SC-nv8ve Without wishing to be cynical, don't expect any engineering from the air bag manufacturers. See the video on my channel for the story of how and why mine fell apart prematurely. Badly engineered.
@@defendermodsandtravels
Sorry I should have been more clear. Helper air springs for coil springs are a terrible concept. I was referring to air springs for leaf sprung suspension systems.
Ive been fitting Terrain Tamer springs to 4 or 5 of my customers vehicles lately. Found their Leaves very comfortable and capable of much greater loads. Even when unloaded. Not used parabolic's.
thank you for sharing a great detailed video
right about setup do with weight and springs and shock right for job
I love my airbag helpers in my LC105 for use when towing my camper. Camper not all that heavy however the on road performance has improved considerably.
I am so thankful I watched YOU ! I was considering air bags ... NOT NOW ! Because YOU know what YOUR talking about . Thank You so much .
Very good you gave me so useful tip,thank you
I've been running them on an 80 series for years. I constantly change from near empty to a decent load. The truck rides beautifully when empty but sags a little when full. The airbags level it out and make it more stable when loaded.
It's basic physics. Add load and your springs will compress and can't work the same due to reduced travel. The spring rate is also harsher when compressed.
Except airbags don't compress. They just stop the spring doing anything at a certain point. And then break your spring mount points. As stated. They are dumb for offroad load carrying. Perfect and designed for bitumen towing on daily city 4x4's.
@@Snook_ of course they compress.. they're made of rubber! Get the right pressure in them and they'll compress just like a football bladder. The key is to have the right pressure which usually means not too much. I think they're most useful if your load changes a lot but I agree that for serious off-road with a fairly constant load you should have the right spring set-up.
@@LongStraightLines they don’t truly compress tho. Air has a limit where it just stops/bottoms out completely so it’s kinda shit and bad for your car to hit that limit and put all the load on a tiny point of the chassy. That was my main point
@@Snook_ Its all about balance and knowing your vehicle , if when loaded you make the air bags and suspension work in unison you can run your vehicle on zero load ,and then when loaded equalise the weight with the air bags. obviously the bags compress , as the air presses the bags out horizontal on load ,thus giving you movement in a controlled way.As we all know all Toyota's chassis are massively over engineered , thats why we are all lucky in Australia to drive them. They also help with breaking under load. as they stop pitch and roll.
Also, unless you have progressive springs, compression doesn’t change the spring rate, so it is not harsher because it’s compressed. But because it has less travel for the shock absorber to do it’s thing.
I'm not a expert but looking at some people's feedback, airbags are a good way to temporarily balance a load, provide better handling and reduce sway when towing. If you are almost always laden with weight, heavy duty suspension is preferable and smoother. There's no wrong decision, and airbags are generally a cheaper option then new suspension.
What I think we can all agree on is if you plan on towing 3t with a Prado with the family regularly, the safest option is to consider heavy duty suspension or airbags. You will have a much more enjoyable holiday with something to balance the load.
Great review, thank you
I could not agree more. Here in the states the best performing rigs do so on their regular spring configuration (leveraging the vast amount of engineering of the Manufacturer). We are lucky to have spring shops that have years of experience making replacements and upgrades for the way the truck is used. I have used their expertice in vocational trucks for decades with great satisfaction.
Brilliant analysis
So pleased you released this Andrew. Even after adding another rear leaf to the stack my F250 has a slight sag when fully laden…. I’m going to live with it.
But I’m getting tramping in the dunes… maybe stiffer shocks will help eliminate the tramping?
Cheers.
I was cautious as I hit play but pleasantly surprised by the ending. Well done Andrew, good for you.
Great points!
I upgraded my rear terrain tamer parabolic leaf springs to the heavier duty ones on my single cab 79 series to carry a canopy, I’m very happy with them. The ride is a little firmer when the canopy is not fitted but still easy to live with.
OMG U EXPLAINED EVERYTHING THAT I HA E BEEN WANTED 2 NO
FOR 3YRS
U EXPLAIN IT TO THE T
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR REAL 💯 % U R AWESOME
The photo of the full-length in-coil airbag that's fully inflated makes me shudder. However, like you said, they can be useful when towing. I have in-coil airbags that only occupy half the space of the rear coils and keep them inflated at 10psi (manufacturer recommends 5psi min) when driving normally. When I tow, I inflate them until the rear end is level--about 18-20psi (manufacturer states 25psi max). I feel that installing smaller in-coil airbags and running them near minimum pressures preserves most of the ride and still allows for decent articulation for the purposes of overlanding.
Thank you for the great video. Im actually busy deciding wether or not to upgrade my springs or install airbags. I understand your point of view and tend to agree.
Cheers 😁👍
I finally get it! Thank You 🙏
I have turned my 2019 Fortuner into an overlander. Fitted a second fuel tank which sits above the spare wheel. The spare wheel now sits 50mm lower, and that is my problem. When the vehicle is fully loaded, it sits pretty level, I just needed to add the 50mm I lost with the 2nd fuel tank. Fitted air suspension fitted on the axle not inside the spring, I must say I am very happy, the vehicle handles well. I am only using 20% of the air suspension's capacity
Airbags are great for varying loads as you said. I have Terrain Tamer 0-300kg progressive springs in my Patrol which ride great when empty or partially loaded. However as soon as it’s full with the trailer, they’re too soft. I previously had heavier springs which were great when loaded but were too harsh when empty. The way I travel, it needs to drive well either way. I haven’t found a noticeable difference having them in the coils. Drives normal when empty (deflated to 0.5 bar) and normal when loaded (2.5 bar). Had just the Terrain Tamer coils for a few trips before installing the airbags.
I think air bags do have their place. When you have hugely varying loads in the rear they do help.
Towing a caravan vs daily driving is a completey different load and you cant have one spring that does the job for both conditions
In aspws scenario, his cars weight.chsnges by 1-200kg over the course of an entire trip (as the tanks empty and the food is consumed) so airbags make no sense.
Great detail 👌
Great educational video, that.
I fully approve of your stance on this subject.
I run 10 psi in mine. Not quite enough to notice ride height change but with my caravan on amazingly stays level.
Very nice and proper coverage of this topic.
Hope people stop pestering you with this.
A good well reasoned video.
But what is the actual weight change between, fully loaded, including a second person and say a half load, part way through a trip.
My 130 HD has twin coils, one fitted inside the other, rides well empty or fully laden and towing my three ton digger, but my normal payload of tools is 410kg so that's taking the edge off being truly empty.
How often are we truly fully laden? Totally agree with your arguments Andrew.👍
My opinion is I suspect with going the heavier (terrain tamer) parabolic leaf pack than the lighter set you have now - is you won’t suffer the same ride penalty (unladen) as you would if you were having the same conversation with conventional multi leaf springs. I think you’ll experience a very small and acceptable ride penalty for better heavy laden performance. The benefit of the parabolic design. Look forward with interest to how this pans out for you.
I believe in-spring airbags (for coils) have their application and in my experience work well if used correctly. All too often they are installed to “Band-Aid” inherent issues with the current suspension set up which often is already compromised, as you explained very well.
I only had to use mine on a previous patrol wagon I owned when towing fully laden and the ride quality was great. But I had very good coil and shock combo to start with to deal with the weight range in every other scenario.
Great insights, thanks for sharing!
Weight!!! Wait!!!
Thanks Andrew.....this video was the catalyst I needed to get off my bum and remove the air bag system the previous owner had installed in my Silverado.
I can understand why he needed to fit the airbags AS WELL AS the additional leaves....when I bought it I weighed it @ 4,650kg but GVM was only 4,490kg!!!
I had the GVM increased to 5,171kg (easy to do, as that is what the 3500's GVM is, so no modifications needed whatsoever) and I also removed about 400kg of "stuff" I didn't require!!
The result was that I've been running about 4 or 5psi in the airbags for the past 5 years and they're surplus to requirements.
They are now for sale!
Thanks again!
Great boss I was confused to put in Air bags or not for my land cruiser 76 series thanks you clear my confusion I will surely not go for an air bags now
Totally agree. I investigated air bags for a Triton I had back in 2010. My research found several instances of bent chassis where airbags had been fitted. All because the chassis was not engineered to have the stresses in the places affected. That scared me off air bags for life. EDIT: my research was specifically for towing a big off-road trailer and the instances of bent chassis I found were all where people were towing a heavy trailer. Apologies for not stating this in my original comment.
I imagine that could very well happen Doug, but I would say chassis damage was caused by over loading not by the air bags. With leaf sprung vehicle, fitting an air bag, you are putting pressure on the chassis where it was never designed to go - so that could be a contributing factor, but with coils, that point of contact is where loads are designed to go. I don't know that loading the chassis with an air bag or a stiffer spring will make any different to bending or breaking of the chassis, but I do know that over loading will do this.
That's not an airbag issue your data search was too narrow. You will find that there's likely 90% of chassis failures that do not have airbags.
@@jarlnieminen4307 Agree, but beware of statistics. e.g. It could be that 90% of Tritons have coils and so such a statement is meaningless. Statistics - a fickle mistress.
I don't know the full set of numbers so I can't say one way or other from this statistic proves coils or air bags contributed to chassis failure.
My guess is, since to hold the same weight you need the same force from the spring or air bag so a coil or an airbag plays little or no role in chassis failure.
However when the spring or airbag bottoms out - usually caused by overloading and or too harsh a treatment causing bottoming out, then that is when damage to the chassis will occur and neither the spring or the airbag has anything to do with the forces acting on the chassis since the force either can exert is expended - its bottomed out. The other cause, again independent of type of suspension is the loads imparted by weight hanging a long way behind the axle - either a trailer or badly distributed load in the tub. I'm sure you can find a video on this - John Cadogan or Robert Peper.
@@BenMitro nah even if the spring can't carry the weight you will be on the bump stops and the chassis will break there's no magic situation where the type of springs saves the chassis.
@@jarlnieminen4307 You put it so succinctly Jarl - that was the point I tried to make.
So interesting you say this. I tried airbags inside the coils on a Prado to help with heavy loads on a trip. My experience was exactly as you describe. The ride was terrible even with 0 - 5 psi in the bags. They lost all suppleness. Yet before I put them in it was impossible to find anyone who explained this. So I totally agree and I hope others watch this before paying for airbags thinking they can have their light load road and load carrying with airbags only to end up going with stronger rear springs afterwards anyway.
It must really vary vehicle to vehicle. I use them on my Frontier/D40, and on top of leaf springs for my purposes they work great. They are sized so that they aren’t being used unless I am heavily laden or towing, and add just a touch of support and stability only as needed. Very much one of the best additions to my suspension, for me at least.
@@jimyeats I think Andrew is spot on about the impact on the ride having the airbag contained inside the coil spring which gives the bag very little room to expand as the spring compresses.
@@peterj5751 That very well could be. I am not familiar with that type of air bag setup personally. I think the airbag on top of the leaf spring, or better yet, the air bag on top of the leaf spring that simply contacts a cradle and is not permanently affixed, has less impact on how your suspension feels, and your ride quality.
Many mechanics and vehicle fitters don't understand how poisons ratio impacts the behaviour of "constrained" normally compliant materials - rubber or air.
That is certainly a popular view by many, and I was adverse to fitting airbags for many years, however don't you think that the manufacturer designed the bump stops to handle some fairly severe loads? This is the mounting point for airbags on a 70, which if used CORRECTLY.... and I believe this is the key here, will lessen the forces applied here by providing a progressive load as opposed to a shock load. The springs should still support the majority of the load. I own a 79 series, and although it was riding fine when not towing, the airbags have definitely improved things.
I have a very good experience with airbags in my LC100 with fully working AHC. However, these work inside coil springs which removes the issue with chassis failure. In my case it worked better than expected and fully recommend. I do think it needs good planning, fitment and continuous trial an error to get the pressures right and work properly for the intended use.
Im currently running the 500-700kg Parabolics; my vehcile is pretty heavy as a daily; and very heavy when touring. But they handle so nicely in both cases. I just find the HD shocks from TT need to be beefed up to handing the parabolics at a full load; so probably looking at going to the pro shocks in the rear.
Completely agree. Airbags are great for towing but I've never found I've needed them otherwise. Shocks with adjustable compression has made the biggest difference to me! Really helps to take the harshness out of heavier springs when the car is in 'daily' trim between trips
Thank you and you nailed it right on with the stress points on the chassis. If the airbag helper on a leaf spring raises the vehicle's height to level it, then 80% or more of the load is transferred to the centre of chassis instead of two designated points on the chassis. Therefore one big pothole could easily bend the chassis with helper airbags installed.
Disagree friend. Draw the bending moment diagram for a longitudinal chassis member and you will see why.
I have a 2010 Nissan Pathfinder. It’s used as a daily driver (sometimes) but was chosen for its ability to tow our large twin axle caravan. I’ve installed OME springs and dampers all round, and MAD air bags (made in Holland) inside the rear coil springs.
When the truck is fully loaded, and towing the van, I inflate the air bags to approximately 15psi. In this mode, the truck tows and handles beautifully!👍🏻
Andrew you stated it correctly from the start. You are either under sprung or under shocked. If you have to add an airbag to any suspension system then you are outside of its parameters, time to reevaluate the vehicle or your needs. Thank you for sharing thiss much overlooked topic.
Rubbish. It is impossible to have a suspension setup in the rear that caters for both comfort unladen and safety at 350kg ball weight without something that changes the parameters. That is where air has a place.
@@bismarckmark6566 No, you dont understand how parabolics or variable rate coils work!
No reputable 4wd shop would/should recommend airbags for a constant load carrying situation. Airbags are idea for varying loads, vehicles that tow occasionally but are usually unladen. Suitable suspension is always the answer for vehicles with constant load.
Do you have a suggestion for the current monster Max video released by whistling diesel yesterday?.... He needs some advice because of his suspension just literally tipping over and never rebounding due to his "sway bar being to small"
This help me decide, I towed 2X a year with my Lexus gx 460(Prado). Towed 2700lbs Rv trailer(caravan), installed timbren bump stop instead.
Thank you for the information! I have a 1973 Case MB 4/94 that I would like to put a 5th wheel hitch in the bed for a water trailer and tote on the bed. Need to look into springs to compensate for the load of the bed and trailer.
We have been using air helper bags on our game viewers, both 79 cruisers and defenders. So I have experience with both simultaneously, I will never put them in my personal vehicle again, they just ruin the ride too much. That being said, I say they are ok inside coils because the chassis is designed to withstand that point of weight baring. But with leaf springs, the chassis are designed to handle weight bearing at the ends of the springs and not where the air helper is mounted above the axle, thus putting stress on the chassis. Also the mounting brackets for the air bags and the airbags themselves take away massive amounts of travel between the axle and the chassis bump stop, taking away articulation. But yes with big changes of weight with guests and trailers etc they have their place. Thanks for the content Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
At 8:04 you ask a question: at roughly laden weight, should you rather have (had) air-springs fitted to deal with this, or have a slightly heavier-rated spring. I would venture to say one needs to, like with almost everything, match your kit with your intentions (broadly speaking). If one wants / needs proper axle-articulation (wheel travel) for your vehicle (matched to the Q: what am I going to be doing with this car, mainly?) then I would say the answer is simple: stay with springs only. Basically because you will never get the same, or even near to, decent wheel travel / axle-articulation over rough terrain with air-helpers fitted.
I have air helpers fitted to my 105 (i purchased it with them fitted) and I will be removing them, for many of the reasons you've mentioned, and for the reason I mention above.
They have their place, and I would agree: mainly for towing or very heavy loads, on occasion, on smooth roads where serious axle articulation is not required.
Thanks for the content, have fun with the Rangie...
Well articulated. It always alarms me when peeps start with the premise that Toyota engineers have NFI about what they’re doing.
I'm using airbag withy Nissan Armada when towing camper. Greatest addition to my setup. When I'm not towing I'm running bags 2-3 psi...
On my Defender 110, I solved the problem with extra springs in springs taken from the Defender 130.
Cheers Andrew. 🍻
From my understanding of shocks / springs, you should NOT be relying very much at all on a shock absorber to slow down compression. Won’t last long at all.
Springs are to carry the load and absorb impacts, shocks are to slow the rebound and stop the pogo effect.
I agree with your reasoning on air bags on leaf springs putting forces on the chassis where it’s not designed to . However on rear coil springs air assist airbags can work well. The problem there is people get carried away and over inflate which will make the ride ridiculous. I have used air assist airbags successfully with correct inflation on a 4x4 wagon and have had the best of both worlds loaded and unloaded. You should clarify the difference between coils and leaf springs in design and load points on the chassis. I understand you have concluded what will work best for you and others will follow not knowing the difference in springs setups, Thanks love your channel.
Don’t air bag bellows sit against the chassis in place of the rubber buffers? Therefore the chassis is designed to take some load at this location.
I am, a small patrion, and you read my mind sometimes. I use a 2014 jeep Cherokee to tow and go off road. I tried the helper air bags and didn't like how they performed. Noting that I tend to be on the heavier even when not towing I decided to go with up rated Dobinson springs. Though a bit more stiff day to day driving it is perfect when off road and towing. I am not near your level when off road (smaller vehicle) I tend to be near my MVGW 2600 KG when towing and just a little less when off-roading. Alot of people ask how much will it tow but don't look for the max per axle and end up breaking something. It is good to beef things up but there is a max. Nice vid today.
i could hear the aftermarket part fitting industry thinking "be quiet Andrew".........where we are most airbags are fitted to vehicles that are never loaded to go bush.....its just a fad
A friend of mine gave his 110 a 3" lift and I asked why he bothered since that's all he'd done and he said it was to give him much better handling off and on road! I reminded him that LR Engineers had spend years and 000's of £ to make the vehicle drive as well as it could under all circumstances.
He thought adding a few more pounds was going to be much better so off he went on Green-lane. After getting stuck and breaking a spring he reverted back to standard.
My point is that I have found that generally the 4x4's Engineers are pretty good getting things right for us must if the time and helper springs and other bodges can make things really bad quickly.
Absolutely incorrect. Stock vehicles are engineered as a compromise. On road performance is directly against off road performance. LR has to make sure the vehicle is safe and meets government standards. Raising the vehicle provides more clearance but also makes it more susceptible to rollover.
.
Your friend broke a spring it’s either it was installed incorrectly or he bought something real cheap.
funny, i have done very similar. leaf springs on the light side, and the few times I'm full, i pump them up. yes they are helper springs. i just want to put in adjustable shocks
Yes I agree if you overload your 4X4 then add air bags then your chassis becomes a huge spring and starts flexing and twisting it will become a 3RD part off your suspension and yes it will fail awesome work Andrew keep up the informative information cheers
I'd do a bit of fine tuning and consider adding another leaf. Possibly look at going to a twin shock set up. As in 4 shocks for the back axle. Air bags are for highway vehicles only !
I had inside coil airbags over 15 years on a 2000 honda odyssey, which have relatively soft spring and when it's loaded to max sags low and wallows in corners. Pressuring up my air bags levelled the car and the handling improved greatly. I reduced pressure when not loaded and felt no negative impact handling wise. Odyssey is much different than my current 4runner and I'm not sure if they would diminish offroading capabillity.
I've got a GX 460 with the rear bags. I love them. They are engineered by Toyota so perfectly matched to the vehicle. And they really come im handy when I tow. BUT I'm raising the front end with coilovers and adding a 150 lb front bumper. I DO NOT want to delete those awesome airbags and convert to coilover. At least not until I get a dedicated tow vehicle, so what can I do to address the rear in the mean time. Should I replace the factory struts with the same brand struts I'm putting on the front? Or just leave everything alone in the back?
If one adds yet more to go wrong on a vehicle it will go wrong (in my experience). Never mind the risk of ripping an airbag on trail. Yes arguably not easy to do but 50% of all my bush repairs have been performed on items that are not considered easy to damage.
Good call keeping them off the build.
Interesting!! I have an FJ Cruiser and I found when towing the camper trailer that the car was too low and soft in the rear and felt a bit dangerous and unpredictable. I added airbags inside the rear coils. I run them at the minimum pressure of 5psi when not towing, and 15-20psi when towing. The airbags have improved the handling of the car when towing and when not towing. The car feels much safer to drive. Before the airbags the FJC would nosedive under heavy breaking, whether towing or otherwise. With the nose dive came locking up the rears in emergency or steep downhill braking. Amazingly with just 5psi in the rear airbags the nosedive disappeared, and the car remained level under brakes and stopped and behaved better and more predictable. Towing a camper trailer before the airbags was scary, particularly on steep decent. Towing now with 15-20psi the car behaves more predictably and confidently on the road and feels way safer. It also feels great on maintained dirt roads. Havent tried it on extensive corrugations. Airbags with protective sleeve are capable of 60psi, but I cant see myself ever using more than 20psi. The car unladen at 20psi rides way too hard in the rear, so I just drop it to 5psi and I have the comfort back, with the benefit of having no more nose dive under brakes. Rear airbags inside the coils are the best bang for buck mod I have made to the vehicle by far. Maybe sticking to sensibly low psi pressures has something to do with the success???
I guess it's hard to have the right mechanical set-up for all conditions, so using airbags properly makes a lot of sense and certainly better than putting different suspension in when you are driving around town yourself and another for towing a big caravan which seems the alternative to get everything you want.
Exactly my experience. I dont want beefy springs in the rear to take the load only 10-20% of the time and have the car ride harshly the rest of the time when not loaded. The airbags are perfect solution and i find they ride great when loaded and with 20psi and great when not loaded with 5psi.
I have airbags in my 150 Prado with a 2" lift. I dont want heavy duty springs for everyday driving. I have some light weight drawers in the back and that's it when not touring and I dont notice any difference in ride at minimum 5psi. When it comes time to load up to go away I put 20psi in the airbags and off we go. car sits level and handles great. I guess if you pumped em up to 60psi it would not handle/ride well at all, but if you are doing that then you have the wrong suspension setup.
Great Vid, You went to Terain Tamer Parabolic springs, The look great, but they are not a Military wrap spring, I think that is a backwards step for remote travel.
for my 80 series I put airbags in the stock coil cause i wanna fit in my garage and parking garages and stock height 100kg or 200kg springs aren't really available in the USA I run at 5psi unloaded and 15/20psi loaded to only affect I've noticed is the shock rebound is a little fast at 15to20psi
Interesting point
Lots of blablabla. Fab Rat just demonstrated how air bags should be fitted properly in his dad's 200% refitted extreme offroad tow truck. Ofc the fram has been modified to cope with the extremely different loads a tow truck will face every day. As such, his airbags serves their purpose adjusting to flexible GWMs.
For coil sprung rear axles, we should remove the bump stop to install airbags. After few months the pressure inside the airbag drops and then you are bottoming out the shockabsorber. This happened to my 4R/Prado 95 rear and the top mounting plate of the shockabsorber (which also holds the top side of the coil spring) started cracking off the main chassis.
We have had airbag assist coils in our 100 series for many years trips including Cape York & latest one 12000ks + Western Australia including Gibb River Road Kimberley still going strong with no issues
I have airbag man bags in my Patrol ute rear coils. My set up is different, my ute has a 450mm chassis ext and the chassis is braced a lot stronger than stock. I run 20 psi when my van is hooked up. 250 kg down ball load.
Good to see you again, I hope you and your family are doing well. Spot on for the springs, shocks and airbags.
I'm sorry Andrew, but the airbag in the picture where you are showing "that part of the chassis is not designed for a load", is replacing the factory bump stop.
It is in fact designed to take the full weight of that corner when the axle hits the bump stop.
By putting in airbags, you are effectively cushioning the impact.
Totally agree on the coil sprung vehicles, the ride is atrocious with airbags inside of the coils.
Some one should mention this to Jmcax , he’s has over 500 conversion being used with this airbag set up.
@@TP-mi7st Who's Jmcax?
Your final comment summed it up perfectly. Unless you run them at minimum psi to assist they are useless and at minimum psi a waste of money. Better to spend on adjustable shocks.
If you run something like a long range tank that can add a variable load of 200+kg in the worst spot, behind the rear axle, airbags (within coils) are great, here's why.
An air bag will effectively increase the spring rate, not only that, because of Boyle's law, it'll do it at a non linear rate.
That is, it'll take a linear rate spring and have the ability to use it as a adjustable progressive rate spring, exactly what you want with a varying load, and progressive rate, just like leaf springs.
I love your opinion. I’ve watched this vlog three times now. I’d like your opinion for my specific case. I believe you’re talking about built overland vehicles. I have a FJ cruiser. I love the ride. When I tow my bushwakka trailer the rear sags. Say 15-20%. Are airbag helpers still not a good idea? I desperately dont want to ruin the amazing ride I currently have. Many thanks.
I would have thought what you are describing is for the weekender drive around midweek empty and load up on weekends. Whereas you predominantly drive your vehicle on expeditions so spring it for loads and suffer the rougher ride on the few times you drive it empty
A good Blacksmith / Spring works business will be able to sort out any spring pack with reducing or adding leafs and fine tuning each leaf to do its job under weight.
Set up progressively so as your vehicle gets heavier each leaf will compress onto the next level of helper spring.
Still get great ride and handling quality with all weights,even when 4wd is empty.
My last 3 vehicles suspension have been set up like this.
They have been very good.
Never used airbags with leaf springs.
Hi, have you had anything to do with the coil spring over Leaf spring rear , with the cross body bracket that takes the load point to arms that go down to the std leaf mounts? I have a close friend with a early Hilux, with the kit , it works brilliantly.
Correct springs to carry the load and correct shocker to control the wheel travel
Spot on Andrew We finally agree on something lol
Informative video Andrew, enjoyable to learn
SPRING RATES!
Man, I always say it, a true suspension builder / car builder for stance knows his Spring Rates and understands the relationship between Shocks/Dampening and Springs.
I’ve built and also rode inside cars that are extremely comfy and responsive, never air ride always static coilovers. I like all suspensions, they all have their place but just to explain how great conventional works when done right.
Depends on your usage. I had a Pathfinder that suffers from being low already, loading it up sagged even more. I fitted in spring air bags and only inflated them when I was loaded, normal driving I left them partially deflated. This brought the height back to normal even when loaded.
The in spring airbags place the load on the part of the chassis that is designed to take a load from the springs anyway, I agree separate airbags can be a problem.
I now have a Prado Kakadu with standard airbags and enjoy the automatic height levelling when you load it up.
I know you kinda hate the Land Rover Discovery 4 platform and its air suspension... but I love being able to level my rig with the xlifter module. 4.5 degrees of pitch and roll of self levelling. No stacking rocks or maxtrax... I just press a button and have a level bed, tailgate, etc every time
Air bags kinda give you part of that capability. I would have thought you would be into the luxurious feature of levelling via air.
Yes but the Discovery chassis was engineered from the get go to use the air bags. This is not the same as adding them on later, especially to springs that may have already increased load carrying capacity.
I rather just sleep on a slight angle than mess around with air leveling or rocks....
@@RyanYoxo uh, it’s one button push lol. whatever man. I swear any mention of anything and someone has to say something like this. i’d rather slam my head into a wall than hang out with people with that attitude. you do you man.
Iowa LR4 attitude? Me not being a sook is an attitude? Mate no need for fancy gear just deal with it, want comfort go to a hotel.
I think the dislike of that system is the reliability and complexity making it difficult to fix in remote areas.
100% agree, I have airbags in my coils and it rides very hard and bouncy and it’s a heavy price to pay to tow level. There still in but I honestly don’t use them anymore.
I have a coil rear NP300. 9-5, I carry tool and stock, the ute sits at rear axle capacity. Weekends, ute is 300kg lighter.
I ordered in coil airbags a week ago as I found it to be the most economical method to support the weekday use. Also, all constant load springs for that vehicle lift it, which is not suitable for work use.
I'll be interested to see if your suggestions are right and I end up removing them.
A dedicated air suspension kit for your chassis from a reputable air suspension company will have engineered the kit and carried out FEA analysis on the chassis. In Europe the vehicle and the air suspension would then have to go through extensive homologation and testing.
Further to that you should never put more than 3.5 bar pressure in a air spring. Somebody that puts excessive pressure in a air spring and then excessively overloads a vehicle is asking for trouble.
A Properly engineered air springs would be an excellent choice for your vehicle. You would have increased comfort and a variable spring rate if used correctly.
What are your thoughts on remote res adjustable shocks?
Hi Andrew. Have you considered the Timbren SES system that replaced the bump stops? It extends them but not to the point of full time contact with the axle. So unloaded ride should be the same and when heavily loaded, they provide a progressive amount of support.
I was thinking of putting them in to assist and take the lumps out of the ride but not to blow them up to high pressure for load carrying. I have a 2019 Hilux they are known to have a lumpy ride. As to your light springs Andrew, have you considered a helper spring that only engages when there is the extra load?
Wow you can really see how good the cameras are that he's using in this video. I'm a bit of a minilist with my FJ62 and what I carry... just drives, feels so much better. Camping should be kinda going back to basics in my personal book.