I've looked into and eventually bought airbags myself, but every time someone warned me against them, it was always from a viewpoint of overloading. Its a pity really, when they're a really good tool when used appropriately. My camper is 1200 kg total, I've got a small fridge and two pull out drawers in the tub. I didn't want stiffer leafs because we don't pull the camper everyday, so bags was the obvious choice. I'm stoked with them.
What John is attempting to say is, if you're not overloaded or you're not living constantly in a worse case scenario, then air bags are a bloody good thing. Most people who tow and not in the know will upgrade their suspension to heavy duty. The only problem with this is when you aren't towing 2 ton or 2.5 ton your new ride is so harsh you'll lose your fillings just driving around town. Fitting a set of air bags is the perfect solution to this. Get a 30mm lift but keep it lighter duty or even keep your stock suspension. When raking the kids to school leave just 5-8psi in the air bags and keep almost your stock ride quality and comfort. On the occasion you're hooking up the 2 ton van throw throw approx 12-16 psi in the air bags and your car will tow like a dream. Simply let the air out when you get home for a great ride again. The blue singlet numpties that John is referring to think because the sticker says they can tow 3.5 tons they can. They then put 40 psi in their air bags, because ....Straya. Then hit the bump or wash out which then turns their vehicle into a pez dispenser. Said blue singlet numptie will then blame the make or model of their preffered vechile because...Straya. Air bags can be a stellar towing upgrade but only for people who don't refer to their 4wds as trucks. 🤣
Yank here. Your right 100 m8. It’s really important to stress that maxing out your “tow capacity” is always a supremely bad idea. So long as you don’t see airbags or a weight distribution hitch as a way to break that rule they can be very useful. Weight distribution helps a TON with under steer by shifting more weight to the front. They also do a good bit to dampen dynamic loads. As safety goes they’re a good add. Airbags are not quite as useful. Basically the only thing they help with is dampening dynamic loads (bumps) a bit but this is at the expense of your rear axle and chassis which will share that energy more than they might otherwise. So if you’re in for safer towing then weight distribution hitch, if you’re in for a conveniently adjustable ride quality toss in a set of airbags. In all cases none of these things will break the primary rule. You want your vehicle to weigh more than your trailer at every opportunity. If, for some reason, you deem it absolutely necessary to break that rule then first work on keeping your asshole puckered and your pocketbook loose. Then, before you set off make sure you have some good trailer brakes and all other conditions are as good as you can have them (weather etc.)
Airbags are not a substitute for a GVM upgrade if it's needed. If a vans ball weight increases the vehicles GVM over the legal limit, then a GVM upgrade is required, whether your teeth fall out or not.
@@attrezzopox For a second I thought you were referring to the 70's cop show, Bluey! Also known as Bargearse to D-Gen fans😂😂 th-cam.com/video/cBt2HFoMdf4/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/qiSV2dH2eX4/w-d-xo.html
It is amazing to consider how many people there are, who, on a daily basis, witness multiple truck and trailer general haulage combinations on public roads, plus tippers towing tipping trailers; and then fail to consider (when purchasing a light 4WD vehicle) why every one of those trucks has a minimal rear overhang! All any thinking person can do is try to save a few lives, by doing what John Cadogan is doing and Point Out the Bleeding Obvious. Thank you again, John, for trying to reduce unnecessary injury and death during vehicle operations.
I think it's a bit harsh to call airbags a band-aid solution. Like any engineering solution it just needs to be appropriate for the intended task. In my case I run a Y62 Patrol at about 3 tonne and tow a 2.5 tonne family caravan. Like most luxury 4wd's the rear springs in the Patrol are soft from the factory for a comfy ride, so the extra 250kg from the van causes the rear to sag. I could change the springs but then I'm stuck with a harder ride all the time, with or without the van. So for me, airbags just make sense. I never run them at more than half their rated pressure, it's all about just bringing the suspension and alignment back into it's normal range. I've done many many km's like this and so far it's all been good!
You are also nowhere near your GCM of 7000kg. Your scenario is not what John is talking about. Its the scenarios where someone has maxed out their GCM and use airbags to level the vehicle thinking this will help the situation. It won’t.
@@aaronhunter5829 Read the title and re-watch the introduction. In both cases John refers to the general use of airbags when towing. However in the content of the video he only uses extreme examples, so I can see how you and others could become confused. Airbags are not necessarily bad because they won't fix an overload problem. Based on the video content the title should been, "Should you fit airbag suspension to solve an overloading problem when towing."
Great advice, 100% spot on. If you need to carry a heavy load occasionally then rent a small truck: if you need to carry a heavy load regularly then buy a small truck.
Standard Suspension is under built for even light loads. Air bags create a constant pivot point which work hardens the chassis in one triangulated point causing failure. A spring upgrade allows less hammering of the bump stop through those washout type conditions and spreads the movement over a much larger area of chassis which is engineered for it. Standard suspension is only for Standard use with no loading. Look at a New Hilux. Put a steel tray on and all spring leaf elements are engaged and the vehicle drives like a waterbed on wheels. Thats before putting a van or trade tools in it.
I drive a 2019 dmax with three leaf standard leaf suspension on it ..I also tow a tandem box trailer with a 3200 gross weight. While I don’t load it up to the max I’ve regularly had it at 3 tonne but if it’s loaded correctly it has limited effect on towball weight and it tows fine ..i drive it accordingly and don’t push it safety wise .I think a lot of people need to start using their brains when using trailers and stop believing what the manufacturer tells them is ok . Maybe my early years of driving trucks and trailers has given me a more sensible approach to loading etc .
@@BubblesTheCat1 When you see people on holiday that have rolled there 4wd with trailer or caravan due to fatigue or as John described a big bump unsettles the load with there belongings scattered everywhere and or occupants.... you hope some one hasn't been injured or killed.... but that's not always the case especially children needles to say it's devastating. 🥺
@@MrLunithy Ja, that's terrible. Almost happened to me years ago when I had to move to another city in South Africa, about 1500 km away. I towed a rented trailer with all my belongings with a Toyota Cressida, needless to say the trailer was loaded wrong and heavily overloaded. Picked up a sway at 85 km/h when passing a semi. Couldn't accelerate, as it was downhill and I was afraid of going even faster. Just held my speed steady and held on very tightly to the steering wheel, and thankfully the road starting going uphill, and the sway settled. The rest of the trip was done at 60 km/h, on 120 km/h roads which is also unsafe. I now realise the dangers of towing wrong. John is very correct in saying that the tow vehicle must weigh considerably more than the trailer. Makes perfect sense. I've towed a diesel bowser with a ute for a company, and it towed perfectly, as it was less than half the ute's weight ☺
As someone who is doing research in regards to towing a live in camper trailer I'm really glad I found this video as I now know I won't be going over my 9k limit. However I will still get airbags essentially for the ride comfort and appearance of level, Mainly because RAM in particular squat really hard even within parameters.
Love the work John. I agree with you that people overload vehicles with the mindset that air bags are going to solve the problem. I have airbags in the rear of my 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The only reason why I have them is the for the wheel alignment on the rear. I found to be wearing rear tyres unevenly. I only tow a 2.5 ton van fully loaded and well under GVM and axle weights for the rear axle.
Was looking at secondhand horse floats (trailers) for sale. HS!!! WTF!!! The heavier ones are easily 3000 and up to 3500kg. That's bad enough but remember that a good portion of that weight is the horses being transported. Live cargo that's top heavy and moves. Please keep fighting the good fight as regards safe towing.
The shit that people do with caravans and boats is shocking enough, but witnessing someone dragging around two unfortunate horses in a float suspended from the arse-end of an obviously overloaded luxo SUV really makes me cringe. I used to live in one of semi-rural Sydney's "horse person" suburbs, seen a fair few entry-level Range Rovers towing things they weren't really designed to be towing, arse down/nose up, you know the story. The only redeeming factor (kind of) is that the horses are typically worth many times the cost of the float, so these idiots tend to just potter along holding up traffic instead of actually endangering themselves, the beasts, and everyone else on the road. A bit more worrying once they hit the motorway/freeway though...
I think the centre of gravity can be lowered by turning the cargo upside down. Or perhaps like Ikea does removing the legs before transport and then attaching once they're on-site.
I think you're mainly correct. But. 1. This is valid for leaf springs. I'd never add bags to them. 2. Having airbags on a coil vehicle will mean it drives well without a couple of ton behind it (i.e unloaded as a daily) and if you add say 15-20psi to the bags it will sit level, so the braking, steering etc will all work properly, but it won't drive like shit and be dangerous. Adjustable suspension has been around forever to compensate for loads and maintain vehicle dynamics, this is just user adjusted, not automatically by an ECU. It's not idiot proof, but it's better than a saggy arse!
Are you referring to the chassis bending? To my knowledge, they usually bend in the middle, not at the wheels. I'm a tradie and I had a 4wd ute with tray and canopy for about 8 years. It's spent most of its life with a payload close to capacity and I have airbags and leaf springs. I get the idea that you're adding force in a location that wasn't designed to take force, but that force is going in the same direction. So, instead of applying a bending "banana" force, you're actually taking the same force as you previously had, but distributing it more evenly across 3 points on the chassis instead of 2. Also keep in mind, you already have a shock absorber applying force around that part of the h e chassis
Many, many years ago when I was a young lad of say 20 years age I learned this valuable lesson not to tow a trailer that was heavier than the tow vehicle. I had 1973 6cl Ford Cortina (the old coke bottle body). I had a 1965 Studebaker (in need of a total restoration), and I had to take it from A to B (5km trip). I borrowed a trailer, loaded the Stude (properly secured) and hit the road. 60km/h speed limits, so nothing stupid. Barely half way when we got the shimmies going, a fair bit of sway over the entire road type thing. Needless to say I fairly shat myself. The second half of the journey was completed at a maximum of 20km/h. Lesson learned. The Stude stayed put on the trailer, so at least I had done one thing right.
John, correct me if I am wrong, but there are fundamental differences between use of airbags on leaf springs, and use of airbags within coil springs. With leaf springs, airbags place a load on the chassis at a point that was not designed to have that sort of load placed on it. It introduces a new 'pivot' point that can stress the chassis. With airbags in coils, the point of load is unchanged. The load is placed squarely on the upper and lower spring seats. Both of my cars (4WD wagons with coil rear ends) have airbags fitted. Max towball weight for either my boat or camper would be 200kg, at the absolute most. The airbags work really well for me. Tow within your vehicles limits (the less weight, the better, totally agree....), use the airbags to effectively increase the spring rate, remove sag and return the vehicle to a 'neutral' posture. Happy days! When not towing, deflate the bags to minimum pressure and enjoy the nice comfortable ride 👍
I think it's time that people who want to tow these heavy loads should have to pass a load tow test, pretty sure this would solve many of these problems with weights and towing.
Mate, I hate regulations, I hate doing courses and I hate handing over license fees. Worst of all, I hate to agree with you. I live in a fairly "touristy" part of the world and witness all kinds of absurd and dangerous driving behaviours when it comes to towing caravans. And I'm sure it all comes down to ignorance.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 Yep, agree with you entirely. Born a d bred on a farm and backed trailer's from the age of 11yo. My father drummed into us about safety, weights and distribution and driving conditions. Sadly he is no longer here to pass on his wisdom but I still follow his teaching to a tee.
@@brentonl2631 I was lucky that I was required to tow trailers in my first job. Even luckier than that was that the fellow assigned to train me was ticketed for HA, HR etc. Not only that, he was a real pedant. He beat "the rules" into me with a big stick. The reality is, however, most people that tow haven't come from such backgrounds.
FWIW, what the Australians call a "ute", includes the Toyota Hilux. In North America, the Hilux equivalent is the Tacoma, which is categorised as a "light duty pickup". 3.5T in metric is 7700 lbs in imperial units. So, yes, the advice in this video is spot on. I would never use a ute to tow such a load outside of my own farm: asking for big troubles otherwise. The general rule, not to tow more than tare, is excellent advice. All utes have very soft suspensions, so even as little is 200# of down force can cause sag. Another factor missed by 99% of people is the effect of sag. Sag means some of the vehicle frontal weight is vectored to the tow ball. The effect can be an effective tow ball weight of 1.5x the 10% rule. So an expected tow ball weight of 300# can easily become effective 450# when "sagged". The use of air bags to counter the sag is valid. With or without bags or torsion bars, I would not tow more than 3500# with a ute.
I’ve been following you for some time. But I always switch you off after 5 minutes because of the amount of crap you talk before you get to the point! This was by far your most informative video yet! Please keep them like this. Dingo piss creek. Onya
Used a vs commodore Ute as a work Ute for over 2 years with a 280 dollar airbag kit in it Drove like a dream If anyone is on the fence about airbags for a work Ute just do it so much more comfortable than heavy duty springs
I used to drive small trucks for Telecom in the 1980s. They were Dodge 300 tray trucks with a detuned Chrysler 245 Hemi engine. One particular application was too much, it was a heavy chain trencher on a trailer. This was uncontrollable beyond 60 kmh downhill as the load would push the truck. The solution was to use a heavier Ford D-series tipper as the to vehicle, its towing hitch was around half a metre behind the truck's rear axle. In the case of the Dodge, this distance was over one metre.
Simple process that we all get wrong. Pick the thing you want to tow first, then pick the appropriate vehicle to tow it. If you buy the vehicle first then buy the van, trailer, shi-twah, etc. you run the risk of wasting your money on the wrong vehicle or committing to a life on (or beyond) the edge of sensible or life threatening motoring. Scary thing is the majority of people would not even know the risks they are taking or how close they are running to the edge.
Interesting video, in the US we don't have 'washouts' very often unless we are in the desert and most of our tow vehicles have frames instead of unibodies.
agreed. overload the vehicle and replace yhe springs or fit airbags to compensate. tho air bags tend to be the worse due to people using to much air pressure. however with mormal loading they work just fine.
I tow a 2 ton caravan with a car that weighs just over 2 tons. When it was on the hoist I noticed a couple of rubber stop marks that showed it had bottomed out. I fitted airbags I put 10 pounds in them for normal running around and 15 pounds when towing .i have had them for 5 years and found them great. I will give you a clue trying to find a pump that would work at that pressure was a nightmare. I did eventually find one at a bike shop. They use them for the front forks it only goes to 30 pounds so pumping from 10 to 15 it easy. I do check them once a month if the leak the bags will bugger up very quickly,
I regularly carry 1 tonne of core fill in the back of my 07 hilux rwd and never had a problem. It now has 501,000km and drives like new still. Vehicle weight 1610 kg. GVM 2710kg. So my unbreakable Hilux vehicle has a 1.1 tonne payload.
In the UK caravan magazines recommend towing up to 85% of the vehicle weight, and 100%for experienced towers. So to this rule they're towing 71% overloaded towing 3.5 ton with a 2.5 ton vehicle!
Watched this clip and agree totally. Then went back to Ford Ranger Forums and here is a guy just posted with a new Ranger and 3300kg Caravan with the rear end down on the Ranger. I do 2000ks a week in Rural Oz for work and have the joyfully task of negotiating around all the migrating Grey Numbnuts ---I mean Nomads with this very same sceniaro. I just hope when one goes tyres up I'm not around them.!! P.S. money is obviously not an issue with these rigs so just upgrade to an American F150, Ram 150 250 ect. P.p.s. have recently seen in several locations police and Mains roads weight guys doing warning on Caravans. A few sitting near the test sites with no tow vehicle attached. I wonder why. 🤔Thats in Qld!
Interesting that the wagon version of all utes are coil rear end and the mounting point for said coil is generally where an airbag is fitted, on the same chassis as the ute
The legislation shouldn't allow for passenger cars, utes included, to tow more than the GVM of said car and/or ute. If you have to tow 3t plus on the regular, you probably need a truck and as John's pointed out before; utes aren't trucks. Edit: I just finished typing exactly what John said. I'll just shut up now.
His logic doesn't compute, every truck out there is towing loads higher than the truck itself, his logic dictates a 60ton trailer should have a 60ton truck towin it .
@@alexfrankl7861 You are comparing a glorified car to a purpose built heavy transport vehicle, look at the frame designs, wheel diameters, braking mass, suspension component size, gearbox and engine braking.
A prime mover is a very, very different machine to a passenger vehicle... And more to the point, if the trailers of said prime mover decide to drag the truck off the road, the truck is going wherever those trailers drag it. But they're designed completely different, it's apples and oranges
There's a lot of wheels directly under the turntable on a prime mover and the trailers are not "pigs". Completely different scenario. However, a dickhead in the driver's seat can still let the trailer take charge - look up jack knife.
Yep as mentioned, heavy trucks are not towing pig trailers. Notice how tipper trailers for big loads of dirt are dog trailers with wheels at all 4 corners… stability and not the pitch and yaw forces that John mentioned. 👍
Thanks for your second video tonight. The dynamic challenges in this vehicle trailer scenario should make owners think again about the wisdom of their vehicle trailer combination, or die ignoring your advice.
We saw the light f#%king near ten year ago. Been traveling all over AU fulltime. We tow our 2950kg (2600kg ATM + 350kg TBM) with a light truck. No need for expensive band aid measures to achieve a genuine safe result.
Thanks John. Your experience, common sense and delivery is an educational joy to view... I particularly like your re purposed Bosch saw in the background... I've used that model of saw, and to be honest, a welding helmet hook is about all they are good for... Keep up the great content... Stu of Fuckdale.
I don't know why people want to find ways to subvert the safety of their family. If you told them that a 3500 kg vehicle was going to tailgate their fancy little 4WD, and try at every opportunity to push them off the road all around Australia, they'd be the first to complain and get it stopped. They'll hook up the same mass to their vehicle in their own driveway, but they can't see the similarities. If your car looks and handles like crap with that much weight behind it, would you rather buy airbags to hide the reality, or strip some excess weight from the shitwah you're dragging along and increase your safety margins?
@@alexfrankl7861 Just let your insurance company know, the manufacturer know, the police, other road users and those that you care to carry in your vehicle and it shouldn't be a problem at all.
3.5 is a limit they need to set, not many utes could legally tow 3.5 because of gcm limits. Old mate just gets on his high hores again. The GCM limit set for utes is fine, if your at legal GVM and GCM there is absolutely no issue, accidents are happening due to poor load distribution and over weight .
My van 23 foot has the from axel jus behind centre second axel obviously behind Good to back tows like a dream no wag at any speed I use ride hight valve to control airbag pressure 😮😮
Hino 300, 921. Jo5e engine (absolutely fucking magic, 600 flamin metres of Issac). 2wd only, but hey, are you really going off road? $88k Tows 4 ton and carries 3.5 ton (at the same time) like falling on its ear.
Saw a heavily overloaded Hilux with airbags actually snap the whole diff tube clean off about an inch from the wheel on the Canning Stock Route... Ouch
Unfortunately, the Holden Trailblazer i bought, already had air shocks on it, so all i need to know is, what pressure should i run them at towing 2300kgs of caravan fully loaded?
I suppose another way to ask this question, if you are towing 2K on 3T rated vehicle and the rear has now sagged somewhere 30-60mm is it a good idea to use air bags to retain the original height (EBH) from stock? People will say air bags will keep the rear end at factory height eliminating any sag, as the rear always sits higher than the front end, otherwise the rear will sit more level with the front end.
100% keep the trailers gvm below the Tare mass of the vehicle is a safe combination. At the worst case trailer should be less than 80% of the gvm of the vehicle when fully loaded.
Spot on as usual. And that is only with a vehicle which is "technically legal" . Did you see the recent thing by Qld police where they set up a weighstation on a remote bit of highway in western Queensland? 90% of vehicle combinations checked were overweight. Did they fine anyone? . No. Said it was for educational purposes. I propose that a drone shot of a couple of dozen car caravan combinations parked up in the middle of nowhere, unable to legally move, spread across Facebook, would be really educational.😂
The 3500kg towing capacity is for taking the Big Boat down to the ramp at 60-70kmhr and home again, they are not designed to tow for a thousand kms a day at 110kmhr. Even 80kmh on most of Oz roads are too much for a light weight dual cabs towing 3 tonne. .
Hi John, I have a 2023 Y62 Patrol that was recently professionally weighed with my medium sized caravan. Patrol measured weight loaded is 3124 kg (2 people, small fridge, a light weight table 2 light weight chairs Caravan measured weight is 2560 kg From those figures the weight of drive and tow vehicles is acceptable but ! Tow ball measured weight is 271 kg This tow ball weight is making the Patrol sit lower at the rear and with independent rear suspension it causes tyre wear. As the car is new and I cannot sell it for a Landcruiser or truck that will be minimum $30k more. With your engineering background, would you consider heavy duty springs to lift the rear suspension to level the vehicle and avoid tyre wear ? Cheers Rob
Hi John, What are your thoughts on towing with a 5th wheel kit mounted in the bed of the truck? I'm thinking there are some obvious benefits due to a setup like that in terms of weight distribution and stability. What kind of impact does towing with a 5th wheel hitch have in reducing chasis Bananarama-ing, especially for someone (not myself. I'd get an F-150 or similar for towing) with a max capacity trailer of, for e.g. 3.5T? Loving the shorter chat format too, by the way.
an inconvenient truth ... AGAIN Then there are the problems associated with air bag failure and or air bag bleed left to right. This problem is not new, we had the exact same problem with air adjustable shock absorbers in the 70's and 80's. IF the airbag/ air shocky is plumbed separately, if one fails catastrophically one side of the vehicle drops and may cause a rollover or some such. If the air bags/ air shockies are plumbed together, air bleeds from side to side as the vehicle goes around corners or on slopes ... again possible rollover / handling problems but less spactacular. There are also problems associated with putting loads on places they where never intended to be.
This is true but also not really because if you look at the semi trucks the trailer weight to vehicle weight is a big difference that difference is adjusted by different weight distribution and bags, etc. it all depends on how many axles the trailer has, a vehicle can technically tow way above its general weight IF and only if the weight in the trailer is distributed properly and the center of gravity on the trailer is not too high.
I tow with a standard Pajero, 2.1t van and I’m 1.2t under the GCM and under on all the limits axles etc..I got it weighed properly and fully loaded. Because of the independent rear suspension and softish springs, even with 220kg towball load there is a bit of sag. I fitted in coil air bags and run them at half their max pressure just to get back to the starting level and to prevent tire wear. Can’t see that being a major concern, but could be wrong.
Tony I have the same combo I found just heavy duty rear springs worked a treat. The stock ones are garbage the bump stop rubbers always bottom out towing 2.1 van.
living near the Bruce Highway on the Sunshine Coast, I've lost count of the number of "light duty" dual cabs towing massive vans that come to grief. People really need to educate themselves better before hitching up a caravan that has no right to be there.
What would your opinion be on using helper airbags (inside springs) in the following situation. I have a discovery 2 used for overland trips fitted with aftermarket suspension. The suspension is kindof exactly right when it comes down to the vehicle being empty lets say a tad over sprung and when loaded for a trip (a tad undersprung). Now what i would like to do is stick a motorcycle carrier on the rear. It mounts to both chassis rails directly and also to my square tow hitch receiver. The tow hitch has a max ball weight of 175kgs. Bike plus carrier are essentially exactly 175kgs combined. But this load sits relatively far back and thus effects it quite a bit. Now i would not use this setup often but rather for the occasional trip. Would you think helper airbags would be a good option for this particular situation? Thank you i appreciate the videos
Oh i must add. The vehicle is NOT at max permissible load even when loaded up with all my gear i took seats out etc to accomodate. So it will not be an “overloading” situation
You said a lot here without really answering the question...I have a boat that weighs about 1,8 tons on the trailer with a ball weight of a couple hundred kilos. When I hitch it up, the back of my van dips and my headlights point up straight into the eyes of the drivers of oncoming cars. Is it a terrible idea for me to fit airbags to level the van out so that it doesn't do this?
Just buy a Dyna, Canter or similar. Trying to get a glorified car to tow a 7m caravan isn't sensible. USA builders have truck type utes. Did see one in Brisbane though.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 In NZ you can buy a Mitsi for 5k that'll tow the caravan, 5m deck for the tinnie etc. Then buy a nice car for the family. Hell, 60k would get you a Kenworth and 30k to spend on the aluminium shit-ois.
Hi John. Another good video. You are correct, airbags are an illusion for your vehicle, it makes your combination look like everything is even, but will put massive amounts of downward force on the rear axle, to the point of doing major damage. But while the airbags are smashing the rear axle they will throw extra weight over your steer tyres putting them overweight. This issue is hard for people to get their heads around because the vehicle looks even. No vehicle manufacturers will payout on warranty if you have had airbags fitted and damage to axle or steering items. This also goes for the people who supplied and fit the airbags, they will not cover the damage to the vehicle. Cheers
Your interpretation defies the laws of physics. 1) Airbags do not "smash the rear axle". The axle is supporting exactly the same load ... the load has been elevated relative to the axle. If you hold 20kg at your waist, then raise it above your head, the load on your feet has not changed. 2) Air bags do not "throw extra weight on the steering tyres." Air bags do not move weight from the rear to the front. Funny how you think rear airbags can smash both axles at the same time. Get yourself in a push-up position and have someone pick up your feet. Have that person hold you horizontal, then lower and raise you by several cms and see if he/she feels "smashed" at the higher level. Also note if you feel changes in the weight your arms are supporting. Now sure, if he / she lifts your legs to vertical, he/she is no longer supporting any weight and your arms are supporting 100%, but air bags don't raise a car to vertical ... we're talking fractions of degrees ... i.e. negligible.
@@trput3824 Hi teput. I had to grab my weight measurements out form when I installed airbags on my vehicle some years back. I'm sorry, you are correct weight does not increase over the steer. But as you blow airbags up weight will increase over rear axle. 2000kg trailer on the tow ball. Rear axle Weight 1705kg. Increase airbags form 5psi to 54psi to level out vehicle. Rear axle weight now 1795kg and vehicle is way too rigid in the rear. Had a quick call around Toyota, Ford, Nissan and Isuzu will not honour vehicle warranty if airbags are, or can be proven to have been fitted. Cheers.
@@davidebsworth7139 With a single-axle trailer, inflating the air bags will not add weight to the rear axle. With a dual-axle trailer, if air bag inflation adds significant weight to the axle (beyond the specific download), then the hitch height needs to be adjusted. There may be too little weight on the tow hitch to begin with, as a sagging vehicle rear end will tend to pivot the trailer over its front axle. Conversely, if you lift the rear of the vehicle too high, you start to pivot the trailer on its rear axle, hence transferring more weight to the tow vehicle. Assuming the trailer is balanced correctly, any added vehicle axle weight is possibly just regaining designated tow ball download with the trailer running level on both axles. Set up correctly, the air bags are not smashing the rear axle ... they are helping to support the weight that should be there.
Yeah sorry David, the replies here are correct. Single axle trailers don’t mean more ball weight when inflation pressure is increased in rear airbags. It does firm the ride as you indicated, but it’s simple to adjust the PSI in the bags to find a happy middle ground between soft and ‘diving’ rear end over bumps (doesn’t feel great in steering either) and too harsh. You mention of putting weight over the front axle is more what weight distribution hitches do, hence the name.
@@GrantHawkey Hi Grant. Sorry I wasn't correct in saying they put extra weight over the steer and will edit that out when I get a chance. My trailer weights are for dual axle trailer sitting level, with as close to even weight on both trailer axles. Funny you mention weight distribution bar as that's what I swapped over to after taking airbags out, vehicle is pretty well balanced and everything nice and legal for the road. My vehicle only has 1780kg max weight on rear axle. The air bags inflated had me 1795 kg, 15kg over weight.
Hi John.Setting out next year,semi retiring and buying a Pajero.I am also wanting to put a small 250 road bike on the back of the caravan it will be done by an engineer,do you think this is a good idea to put the bike on the back of the van cheers Tony
Johnno, mate ya got it all backwards here. It’s all about driva skill! I can easily tow 3 ta 4 times me utes GVM and I still get the whole shootn match sideways in the wet like a pro. I’ve gota Sleepy Dreamer 3000, yeah mines the 8 birth cause all me mates love campn and I tow with me XR6 Ute. Good vid though, think I may start lookn at airbags
Last time I put airbags in the suspension of my trailer, when I set them off the tray sailed clean over the fence and crashed through the roof of my neighbor's sunroom.
Hi John, a bit late but would the LC 200 or Nissan Y62 be at the same risk as although they have a full body wouldn’t the body mounts allow enough flex to cause the same problem. I noticed you pointed out Pajero which is surprising given the short rear overhang on those. I’ve also noticed that the LC 200 chassis is considerably larger than the 79 series. Cheers Stuart.
As a new bee to towing a caravan-id say your video only served to address the numpty factor -namely those knowing or unknowingly overloading front or rear..........yesss/ aplause. For the vast behaving towing public- the answer remains unclear -in simple terms if one sticks to the rules -tow vehicle mass greater than vsn mass -then is there any benefits to airbags ???? On another point one would consider ESC on a caravan to be standard -i was surprised to find it isnt????😮- this should be a given from a safety aspect ..
Howdy, Iron Man. Do you use WD40 as body wash ? A four inch grinder disc to shave ? Bolt Cutters for hair cut ? It would be good to be able to vulcanise a Rubber permanently on the ol’ nine inch nail, Down there…..for the Ming Moles.
This info is just theoretical. I can say in europe, with permit, you can tow up to 6t on toyota land cruiser 100. Bigger cars like dodge ram can tow up to 12t.
So basically, until auto manufacturers figure out a way to make all commercial vehicles zero emissions, we are possibly wasting our time and money with electric cars. I'm saying this based on the hypothesis that: people are always going to want to tow stuff. heavy stuff. For trade, leisure, whatever. It means you need an appropriately sized towing vehicle. perhaps an American-sized pickup, japanese light truck, or Range Rover? all are heavy polluters.
Still puzzles me why many Automakers in particular from USA, don't sell their heavy duty trucks in the Global market. Where the closest vehicles we got, are cabover trucks.
So regarding your comment on the Pig trailers, if you were to have the wheels further towards the back of the caravan, would that make it more stable on the road? And at what point would it be considered too far back?
What you're describing is a typical truck trailer setup (semi). Take a mental snap shot and you'll notice that the hitch load of a typical truck trailer combination is over rather than aft of the rear wheels. This is what gives it stability relative to the pig trailer setup discussed in this video. Both the influence of pitch and yaw are reduced by setting up a combination vehicle in this manner. That said, however, they might be a better solution, but they can still bight you on the bum. Pig trailers, however, are called that for a reason. They are indeed pigs.
This is a video about not overloading a vehicle. Not a video about airbags. Take airbags out of the discussion and just talk about spring rates. Is a spring rate that works well for unladen ride quality at 50kph going to be optimised for carrying a heavy load at 100kph? Probably not. Is a spring rate that is optimised for carrying a heavy load at 100kph gojng to be good around town unladen? Probably not. Do leaf spring packs already provide a degree of variability in terms of spring rate as more leafs are "engaged", yes. Do different models of the same vehicle chassis often come with different spring rates, yes. Will a vehicle carrying a heavy load be safer and nicer to drive with appropriate spring rates yes. Can airbags enable you to vary the effective spring rate (giving you a wider rage of spring rates) to account for varying load states, yes. Can this have benefit even if you are only towing at or less than the vehicles tare weight? Possibly. Should you overload a vehicle regardless of spring rate, no.
I've looked into and eventually bought airbags myself, but every time someone warned me against them, it was always from a viewpoint of overloading. Its a pity really, when they're a really good tool when used appropriately. My camper is 1200 kg total, I've got a small fridge and two pull out drawers in the tub. I didn't want stiffer leafs because we don't pull the camper everyday, so bags was the obvious choice. I'm stoked with them.
What John is attempting to say is, if you're not overloaded or you're not living constantly in a worse case scenario, then air bags are a bloody good thing. Most people who tow and not in the know will upgrade their suspension to heavy duty. The only problem with this is when you aren't towing 2 ton or 2.5 ton your new ride is so harsh you'll lose your fillings just driving around town. Fitting a set of air bags is the perfect solution to this. Get a 30mm lift but keep it lighter duty or even keep your stock suspension. When raking the kids to school leave just 5-8psi in the air bags and keep almost your stock ride quality and comfort. On the occasion you're hooking up the 2 ton van throw throw approx 12-16 psi in the air bags and your car will tow like a dream. Simply let the air out when you get home for a great ride again. The blue singlet numpties that John is referring to think because the sticker says they can tow 3.5 tons they can. They then put 40 psi in their air bags, because ....Straya. Then hit the bump or wash out which then turns their vehicle into a pez dispenser. Said blue singlet numptie will then blame the make or model of their preffered vechile because...Straya. Air bags can be a stellar towing upgrade but only for people who don't refer to their 4wds as trucks. 🤣
Yank here. Your right 100 m8.
It’s really important to stress that maxing out your “tow capacity” is always a supremely bad idea. So long as you don’t see airbags or a weight distribution hitch as a way to break that rule they can be very useful.
Weight distribution helps a TON with under steer by shifting more weight to the front. They also do a good bit to dampen dynamic loads. As safety goes they’re a good add.
Airbags are not quite as useful. Basically the only thing they help with is dampening dynamic loads (bumps) a bit but this is at the expense of your rear axle and chassis which will share that energy more than they might otherwise.
So if you’re in for safer towing then weight distribution hitch, if you’re in for a conveniently adjustable ride quality toss in a set of airbags.
In all cases none of these things will break the primary rule. You want your vehicle to weigh more than your trailer at every opportunity.
If, for some reason, you deem it absolutely necessary to break that rule then first work on keeping your asshole puckered and your pocketbook loose. Then, before you set off make sure you have some good trailer brakes and all other conditions are as good as you can have them (weather etc.)
Also… Bluey is the best television show ever made for any age. Aussies have my eternal thanks and my 2y/o talks like Bandit.
But for real… it’s good.
@M G Bluey is the best. We have bluey wind veins out on the farm here 🤣
Airbags are not a substitute for a GVM upgrade if it's needed. If a vans ball weight increases the vehicles GVM over the legal limit, then a GVM upgrade is required, whether your teeth fall out or not.
@@attrezzopox For a second I thought you were referring to the 70's cop show, Bluey! Also known as Bargearse to D-Gen fans😂😂 th-cam.com/video/cBt2HFoMdf4/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/qiSV2dH2eX4/w-d-xo.html
It is amazing to consider how many people there are, who, on a daily basis, witness multiple truck and trailer general haulage combinations on public roads, plus tippers towing tipping trailers; and then fail to consider (when purchasing a light 4WD vehicle) why every one of those trucks has a minimal rear overhang! All any thinking person can do is try to save a few lives, by doing what John Cadogan is doing and Point Out the Bleeding Obvious.
Thank you again, John, for trying to reduce unnecessary injury and death during vehicle operations.
I think it's a bit harsh to call airbags a band-aid solution. Like any engineering solution it just needs to be appropriate for the intended task. In my case I run a Y62 Patrol at about 3 tonne and tow a 2.5 tonne family caravan. Like most luxury 4wd's the rear springs in the Patrol are soft from the factory for a comfy ride, so the extra 250kg from the van causes the rear to sag. I could change the springs but then I'm stuck with a harder ride all the time, with or without the van. So for me, airbags just make sense. I never run them at more than half their rated pressure, it's all about just bringing the suspension and alignment back into it's normal range. I've done many many km's like this and so far it's all been good!
Re watch the video and this time listen to what’s been said.
You are also nowhere near your GCM of 7000kg.
Your scenario is not what John is talking about. Its the scenarios where someone has maxed out their GCM and use airbags to level the vehicle thinking this will help the situation. It won’t.
@@aaronhunter5829 Read the title and re-watch the introduction. In both cases John refers to the general use of airbags when towing. However in the content of the video he only uses extreme examples, so I can see how you and others could become confused. Airbags are not necessarily bad because they won't fix an overload problem. Based on the video content the title should been, "Should you fit airbag suspension to solve an overloading problem when towing."
Great advice, 100% spot on. If you need to carry a heavy load occasionally then rent a small truck: if you need to carry a heavy load regularly then buy a small truck.
Standard Suspension is under built for even light loads.
Air bags create a constant pivot point which work hardens the chassis in one triangulated point causing failure.
A spring upgrade allows less hammering of the bump stop through those washout type conditions and spreads the movement over a much larger area of chassis which is engineered for it.
Standard suspension is only for Standard use with no loading.
Look at a New Hilux. Put a steel tray on and all spring leaf elements are engaged and the vehicle drives like a waterbed on wheels.
Thats before putting a van or trade tools in it.
I drive a 2019 dmax with three leaf standard leaf suspension on it ..I also tow a tandem box trailer with a 3200 gross weight.
While I don’t load it up to the max I’ve regularly had it at 3 tonne but if it’s loaded correctly it has limited effect on towball weight and it tows fine ..i drive it accordingly and don’t push it safety wise .I think a lot of people need to start using their brains when using trailers and stop believing what the manufacturer tells them is ok .
Maybe my early years of driving trucks and trailers has given me a more sensible approach to loading etc .
Im glad someone mentioned this
Hi John , this video was mostly about overloaded towing. You didn't really answer to question. Is airbags a bad idea?
I think the answer is that it depends on what you are trying to achieve.
Thanks John you are spot on Ive picked up the pieces of peoples holidays in the NT and it was very confronting and at times soul destroying.
Sounds really serious and awful 😐What happened to them? 😢
@@BubblesTheCat1 When you see people on holiday that have rolled there 4wd with trailer or caravan due to fatigue or as John described a big bump unsettles the load with there belongings scattered everywhere and or occupants.... you hope some one hasn't been injured or killed.... but that's not always the case especially children needles to say it's devastating. 🥺
@@MrLunithy Ja, that's terrible. Almost happened to me years ago when I had to move to another city in South Africa, about 1500 km away. I towed a rented trailer with all my belongings with a Toyota Cressida, needless to say the trailer was loaded wrong and heavily overloaded. Picked up a sway at 85 km/h when passing a semi. Couldn't accelerate, as it was downhill and I was afraid of going even faster. Just held my speed steady and held on very tightly to the steering wheel, and thankfully the road starting going uphill, and the sway settled. The rest of the trip was done at 60 km/h, on 120 km/h roads which is also unsafe. I now realise the dangers of towing wrong. John is very correct in saying that the tow vehicle must weigh considerably more than the trailer. Makes perfect sense. I've towed a diesel bowser with a ute for a company, and it towed perfectly, as it was less than half the ute's weight ☺
As someone who is doing research in regards to towing a live in camper trailer I'm really glad I found this video as I now know I won't be going over my 9k limit. However I will still get airbags essentially for the ride comfort and appearance of level, Mainly because RAM in particular squat really hard even within parameters.
Love the work John. I agree with you that people overload vehicles with the mindset that air bags are going to solve the problem. I have airbags in the rear of my 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The only reason why I have them is the for the wheel alignment on the rear. I found to be wearing rear tyres unevenly. I only tow a 2.5 ton van fully loaded and well under GVM and axle weights for the rear axle.
Was looking at secondhand horse floats (trailers) for sale. HS!!! WTF!!! The heavier ones are easily 3000 and up to 3500kg. That's bad enough but remember that a good portion of that weight is the horses being transported. Live cargo that's top heavy and moves. Please keep fighting the good fight as regards safe towing.
The shit that people do with caravans and boats is shocking enough, but witnessing someone dragging around two unfortunate horses in a float suspended from the arse-end of an obviously overloaded luxo SUV really makes me cringe. I used to live in one of semi-rural Sydney's "horse person" suburbs, seen a fair few entry-level Range Rovers towing things they weren't really designed to be towing, arse down/nose up, you know the story. The only redeeming factor (kind of) is that the horses are typically worth many times the cost of the float, so these idiots tend to just potter along holding up traffic instead of actually endangering themselves, the beasts, and everyone else on the road. A bit more worrying once they hit the motorway/freeway though...
I think the centre of gravity can be lowered by turning the cargo upside down. Or perhaps like Ikea does removing the legs before transport and then attaching once they're on-site.
@@confuzsays7196 I've got a .22 and a set of Allan keys. Have you got a crane?
I think you're mainly correct.
But.
1. This is valid for leaf springs. I'd never add bags to them.
2. Having airbags on a coil vehicle will mean it drives well without a couple of ton behind it (i.e unloaded as a daily) and if you add say 15-20psi to the bags it will sit level, so the braking, steering etc will all work properly, but it won't drive like shit and be dangerous. Adjustable suspension has been around forever to compensate for loads and maintain vehicle dynamics, this is just user adjusted, not automatically by an ECU. It's not idiot proof, but it's better than a saggy arse!
Are you referring to the chassis bending? To my knowledge, they usually bend in the middle, not at the wheels.
I'm a tradie and I had a 4wd ute with tray and canopy for about 8 years. It's spent most of its life with a payload close to capacity and I have airbags and leaf springs. I get the idea that you're adding force in a location that wasn't designed to take force, but that force is going in the same direction. So, instead of applying a bending "banana" force, you're actually taking the same force as you previously had, but distributing it more evenly across 3 points on the chassis instead of 2. Also keep in mind, you already have a shock absorber applying force around that part of the h e chassis
Get your suspension right first, then add airbags for flexibility.
Works perfectly in our Defender 110 for towing our caravan.
Many, many years ago when I was a young lad of say 20 years age I learned this valuable lesson not to tow a trailer that was heavier than the tow vehicle. I had 1973 6cl Ford Cortina (the old coke bottle body). I had a 1965 Studebaker (in need of a total restoration), and I had to take it from A to B (5km trip). I borrowed a trailer, loaded the Stude (properly secured) and hit the road. 60km/h speed limits, so nothing stupid. Barely half way when we got the shimmies going, a fair bit of sway over the entire road type thing. Needless to say I fairly shat myself. The second half of the journey was completed at a maximum of 20km/h. Lesson learned. The Stude stayed put on the trailer, so at least I had done one thing right.
Another video!👍👍
It's as if you know I'm camping at The Creek in the rain and need the content now more than ever. Cheers again, you Legend.
Good to know there is internet reception at the Creek!
@@dishevellednomad only just. But that's enough
Good on you well said. I'm constantly amazed at the amount of crap people attach to their car before the tow is even hooked Up
John, correct me if I am wrong, but there are fundamental differences between use of airbags on leaf springs, and use of airbags within coil springs.
With leaf springs, airbags place a load on the chassis at a point that was not designed to have that sort of load placed on it. It introduces a new 'pivot' point that can stress the chassis.
With airbags in coils, the point of load is unchanged. The load is placed squarely on the upper and lower spring seats.
Both of my cars (4WD wagons with coil rear ends) have airbags fitted. Max towball weight for either my boat or camper would be 200kg, at the absolute most. The airbags work really well for me.
Tow within your vehicles limits (the less weight, the better, totally agree....), use the airbags to effectively increase the spring rate, remove sag and return the vehicle to a 'neutral' posture. Happy days!
When not towing, deflate the bags to minimum pressure and enjoy the nice comfortable ride 👍
I think it's time that people who want to tow these heavy loads should have to pass a load tow test, pretty sure this would solve many of these problems with weights and towing.
Mate, I hate regulations, I hate doing courses and I hate handing over license fees. Worst of all, I hate to agree with you.
I live in a fairly "touristy" part of the world and witness all kinds of absurd and dangerous driving behaviours when it comes to towing caravans. And I'm sure it all comes down to ignorance.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 Yep, agree with you entirely. Born a d bred on a farm and backed trailer's from the age of 11yo. My father drummed into us about safety, weights and distribution and driving conditions. Sadly he is no longer here to pass on his wisdom but I still follow his teaching to a tee.
@@brentonl2631 I was lucky that I was required to tow trailers in my first job. Even luckier than that was that the fellow assigned to train me was ticketed for HA, HR etc. Not only that, he was a real pedant. He beat "the rules" into me with a big stick.
The reality is, however, most people that tow haven't come from such backgrounds.
FWIW, what the Australians call a "ute", includes the Toyota Hilux. In North America, the Hilux equivalent is the Tacoma, which is categorised as a "light duty pickup". 3.5T in metric is 7700 lbs in imperial units. So, yes, the advice in this video is spot on. I would never use a ute to tow such a load outside of my own farm: asking for big troubles otherwise. The general rule, not to tow more than tare, is excellent advice. All utes have very soft suspensions, so even as little is 200# of down force can cause sag.
Another factor missed by 99% of people is the effect of sag. Sag means some of the vehicle frontal weight is vectored to the tow ball. The effect can be an effective tow ball weight of 1.5x the 10% rule. So an expected tow ball weight of 300# can easily become effective 450# when "sagged". The use of air bags to counter the sag is valid.
With or without bags or torsion bars, I would not tow more than 3500# with a ute.
I’ve been following you for some time. But I always switch you off after 5 minutes because of the amount of crap you talk before you get to the point! This was by far your most informative video yet! Please keep them like this. Dingo piss creek. Onya
Totally agree!
Greg and Sheila can tow what they want mate…it’ll be someone else’s fault when it goes wrong
Loving all this content John, keep it up
Used a vs commodore Ute as a work Ute for over 2 years with a 280 dollar airbag kit in it
Drove like a dream
If anyone is on the fence about airbags for a work Ute just do it so much more comfortable than heavy duty springs
I used to drive small trucks for Telecom in the 1980s. They were Dodge 300 tray trucks with a detuned Chrysler 245 Hemi engine. One particular application was too much, it was a heavy chain trencher on a trailer. This was uncontrollable beyond 60 kmh downhill as the load would push the truck. The solution was to use a heavier Ford D-series tipper as the to vehicle, its towing hitch was around half a metre behind the truck's rear axle. In the case of the Dodge, this distance was over one metre.
Simple process that we all get wrong.
Pick the thing you want to tow first, then pick the appropriate vehicle to tow it.
If you buy the vehicle first then buy the van, trailer, shi-twah, etc. you run the risk of wasting your money on the wrong vehicle or committing to a life on (or beyond) the edge of sensible or life threatening motoring.
Scary thing is the majority of people would not even know the risks they are taking or how close they are running to the edge.
Interesting video, in the US we don't have 'washouts' very often unless we are in the desert and most of our tow vehicles have frames instead of unibodies.
agreed. overload the vehicle and replace yhe springs or fit airbags to compensate. tho air bags tend to be the worse due to people using to much air pressure.
however with mormal loading they work just fine.
I tow a 2 ton caravan with a car that weighs just over 2 tons. When it was on the hoist I noticed a couple of rubber stop marks that showed it had bottomed out. I fitted airbags I put 10 pounds in them for normal running around and 15 pounds when towing .i have had them for 5 years and found them great. I will give you a clue trying to find a pump that would work at that pressure was a nightmare. I did eventually find one at a bike shop. They use them for the front forks it only goes to 30 pounds so pumping from 10 to 15 it easy. I do check them once a month if the leak the bags will bugger up very quickly,
What airbags did you instal?
Thanks
I regularly carry 1 tonne of core fill in the back of my 07 hilux rwd and never had a problem. It now has 501,000km and drives like new still.
Vehicle weight 1610 kg.
GVM 2710kg.
So my unbreakable Hilux vehicle has a 1.1 tonne payload.
I love the knowledge you share John.
Thank you, ultimate respect from me.
In the UK caravan magazines recommend towing up to 85% of the vehicle weight, and 100%for experienced towers. So to this rule they're towing 71% overloaded towing 3.5 ton with a 2.5 ton vehicle!
Watched this clip and agree totally. Then went back to Ford Ranger Forums and here is a guy just posted with a new Ranger and 3300kg Caravan with the rear end down on the Ranger. I do 2000ks a week in Rural Oz for work and have the joyfully task of negotiating around all the migrating Grey Numbnuts ---I mean Nomads with this very same sceniaro. I just hope when one goes tyres up I'm not around them.!!
P.S. money is obviously not an issue with these rigs so just upgrade to an American F150, Ram 150 250 ect.
P.p.s. have recently seen in several locations police and Mains roads weight guys doing warning on Caravans. A few sitting near the test sites with no tow vehicle attached. I wonder why. 🤔Thats in Qld!
Loved this. But tbh I would never put a copper anti seize behind an aluminium wheel. On one car I had they were almost welded on. All the best.
Totally agree John. Excellent vid
Interesting that the wagon version of all utes are coil rear end and the mounting point for said coil is generally where an airbag is fitted, on the same chassis as the ute
The legislation shouldn't allow for passenger cars, utes included, to tow more than the GVM of said car and/or ute.
If you have to tow 3t plus on the regular, you probably need a truck and as John's pointed out before; utes aren't trucks.
Edit: I just finished typing exactly what John said. I'll just shut up now.
His logic doesn't compute, every truck out there is towing loads higher than the truck itself, his logic dictates a 60ton trailer should have a 60ton truck towin it .
@@alexfrankl7861 You are comparing a glorified car to a purpose built heavy transport vehicle, look at the frame designs, wheel diameters, braking mass, suspension component size, gearbox and engine braking.
A prime mover is a very, very different machine to a passenger vehicle... And more to the point, if the trailers of said prime mover decide to drag the truck off the road, the truck is going wherever those trailers drag it. But they're designed completely different, it's apples and oranges
There's a lot of wheels directly under the turntable on a prime mover and the trailers are not "pigs". Completely different scenario. However, a dickhead in the driver's seat can still let the trailer take charge - look up jack knife.
Yep as mentioned, heavy trucks are not towing pig trailers. Notice how tipper trailers for big loads of dirt are dog trailers with wheels at all 4 corners… stability and not the pitch and yaw forces that John mentioned. 👍
Thanks for your second video tonight. The dynamic challenges in this vehicle trailer scenario should make owners think again about the wisdom of their vehicle trailer combination, or die ignoring your advice.
We saw the light f#%king near ten year ago. Been traveling all over AU fulltime.
We tow our 2950kg (2600kg ATM + 350kg TBM) with a light truck.
No need for expensive band aid measures to achieve a genuine safe result.
Thanks John. Your experience, common sense and delivery is an educational joy to view... I particularly like your re purposed Bosch saw in the background... I've used that model of saw, and to be honest, a welding helmet hook is about all they are good for... Keep up the great content... Stu of Fuckdale.
I don't know why people want to find ways to subvert the safety of their family.
If you told them that a 3500 kg vehicle was going to tailgate their fancy little 4WD, and try at every opportunity to push them off the road all around Australia, they'd be the first to complain and get it stopped. They'll hook up the same mass to their vehicle in their own driveway, but they can't see the similarities. If your car looks and handles like crap with that much weight behind it, would you rather buy airbags to hide the reality, or strip some excess weight from the shitwah you're dragging along and increase your safety margins?
* "Shittoir" (French, n. , lit. "shitbox, shithole, shitter").
Completely agree btw.
Just fit decent springs and shocks and gcm limits are not an issue .
@@alexfrankl7861 Just let your insurance company know, the manufacturer know, the police, other road users and those that you care to carry in your vehicle and it shouldn't be a problem at all.
Pumping out the videos tonight John. Thanks for the info as always!
Check out the towing regs for heavy vehicles, new laws have down rated tow capacities on heavy vehicles, so you can’t even get close to 3500kg
3.5 is a limit they need to set, not many utes could legally tow 3.5 because of gcm limits. Old mate just gets on his high hores again. The GCM limit set for utes is fine, if your at legal GVM and GCM there is absolutely no issue, accidents are happening due to poor load distribution and over weight .
My van 23 foot has the from axel jus behind centre second axel obviously behind
Good to back tows like a dream no wag at any speed
I use ride hight valve to control airbag pressure 😮😮
Hino 300, 921.
Jo5e engine (absolutely fucking magic, 600 flamin metres of Issac).
2wd only, but hey, are you really going off road?
$88k
Tows 4 ton and carries 3.5 ton (at the same time) like falling on its ear.
Biggest problem is the manufacturer OVERRATING THE TOW CAPACITY OF THE LIGHTER VEHICLES
F250diesel 3.5 ton
Ford ranger 3.5 ton
Not in the same class
How does fifth wheel change when you hit a washout? Also there are shock absorbing systems for fifth wheel helping reduce shock to truck and trailer.
The airbag is an excellent idea when your vehicle bottoms out. It prevents bottoming out
Saw a heavily overloaded Hilux with airbags actually snap the whole diff tube clean off about an inch from the wheel on the Canning Stock Route...
Ouch
Unfortunately, the Holden Trailblazer i bought, already had air shocks on it, so all i need to know is, what pressure should i run them at towing 2300kgs of caravan fully loaded?
I suppose another way to ask this question, if you are towing 2K on 3T rated vehicle and the rear has now sagged somewhere 30-60mm is it a good idea to use air bags to retain the original height (EBH) from stock? People will say air bags will keep the rear end at factory height eliminating any sag, as the rear always sits higher than the front end, otherwise the rear will sit more level with the front end.
100% keep the trailers gvm below the Tare mass of the vehicle is a safe combination. At the worst case trailer should be less than 80% of the gvm of the vehicle when fully loaded.
Spot on as usual. And that is only with a vehicle which is "technically legal" . Did you see the recent thing by Qld police where they set up a weighstation on a remote bit of highway in western Queensland? 90% of vehicle combinations checked were overweight. Did they fine anyone? . No. Said it was for educational purposes. I propose that a drone shot of a couple of dozen car caravan combinations parked up in the middle of nowhere, unable to legally move, spread across Facebook, would be really educational.😂
The 3500kg towing capacity is for taking the Big Boat down to the ramp at 60-70kmhr and home again, they are not designed to tow for a thousand kms a day at 110kmhr. Even 80kmh on most of Oz roads are too much for a light weight dual cabs towing 3 tonne. .
Well said
Hi John,
I have a 2023 Y62 Patrol that was recently professionally weighed with my medium sized caravan.
Patrol measured weight loaded is 3124 kg (2 people, small fridge, a light weight table 2 light weight chairs
Caravan measured weight is 2560 kg
From those figures the weight of drive and tow vehicles is acceptable but !
Tow ball measured weight is 271 kg
This tow ball weight is making the Patrol sit lower at the rear and with independent rear suspension it causes tyre wear.
As the car is new and I cannot sell it for a Landcruiser or truck that will be minimum $30k more. With your engineering background, would you consider heavy duty springs to lift the rear suspension to level the vehicle and avoid tyre wear ?
Cheers Rob
Hi John, What are your thoughts on towing with a 5th wheel kit mounted in the bed of the truck? I'm thinking there are some obvious benefits due to a setup like that in terms of weight distribution and stability. What kind of impact does towing with a 5th wheel hitch have in reducing chasis Bananarama-ing, especially for someone (not myself. I'd get an F-150 or similar for towing) with a max capacity trailer of, for e.g. 3.5T? Loving the shorter chat format too, by the way.
an inconvenient truth ... AGAIN
Then there are the problems associated with air bag failure and or air bag bleed left to right.
This problem is not new, we had the exact same problem with air adjustable shock absorbers in the 70's and 80's.
IF the airbag/ air shocky is plumbed separately, if one fails catastrophically one side of the vehicle drops and may cause a rollover or some such.
If the air bags/ air shockies are plumbed together, air bleeds from side to side as the vehicle goes around corners or on slopes ... again possible rollover / handling problems but less spactacular.
There are also problems associated with putting loads on places they where never intended to be.
This is true but also not really because if you look at the semi trucks the trailer weight to vehicle weight is a big difference that difference is adjusted by different weight distribution and bags, etc. it all depends on how many axles the trailer has, a vehicle can technically tow way above its general weight IF and only if the weight in the trailer is distributed properly and the center of gravity on the trailer is not too high.
I tow with a standard Pajero, 2.1t van and I’m 1.2t under the GCM and under on all the limits axles etc..I got it weighed properly and fully loaded. Because of the independent rear suspension and softish springs, even with 220kg towball load there is a bit of sag. I fitted in coil air bags and run them at half their max pressure just to get back to the starting level and to prevent tire wear. Can’t see that being a major concern, but could be wrong.
Tony I have the same combo I found just heavy duty rear springs worked a treat. The stock ones are garbage the bump stop rubbers always bottom out towing 2.1 van.
living near the Bruce Highway on the Sunshine Coast, I've lost count of the number of "light duty" dual cabs towing massive vans that come to grief. People really need to educate themselves better before hitching up a caravan that has no right to be there.
What would your opinion be on using helper airbags (inside springs) in the following situation.
I have a discovery 2 used for overland trips fitted with aftermarket suspension. The suspension is kindof exactly right when it comes down to the vehicle being empty lets say a tad over sprung and when loaded for a trip (a tad undersprung).
Now what i would like to do is stick a motorcycle carrier on the rear. It mounts to both chassis rails directly and also to my square tow hitch receiver. The tow hitch has a max ball weight of 175kgs.
Bike plus carrier are essentially exactly 175kgs combined.
But this load sits relatively far back and thus effects it quite a bit.
Now i would not use this setup often but rather for the occasional trip.
Would you think helper airbags would be a good option for this particular situation?
Thank you i appreciate the videos
Oh i must add. The vehicle is NOT at max permissible load even when loaded up with all my gear i took seats out etc to accomodate. So it will not be an “overloading” situation
Cheers. But the vehicle manufacturers say a stock dmax or ranger can tow 3.5t plus carry 650 kg of payload. No worries. lol.
Cryptic T-shirt. Fe man. I get it. That is pure Au.
You said a lot here without really answering the question...I have a boat that weighs about 1,8 tons on the trailer with a ball weight of a couple hundred kilos. When I hitch it up, the back of my van dips and my headlights point up straight into the eyes of the drivers of oncoming cars. Is it a terrible idea for me to fit airbags to level the van out so that it doesn't do this?
Just buy a Dyna, Canter or similar. Trying to get a glorified car to tow a 7m caravan isn't sensible. USA builders have truck type utes. Did see one in Brisbane though.
And they're cheaper than 4wds, have longer service intervals and the resale on them is ridiculously high. Why don't people get this?
@@davidbrayshaw3529 In NZ you can buy a Mitsi for 5k that'll tow the caravan, 5m deck for the tinnie etc. Then buy a nice car for the family. Hell, 60k would get you a Kenworth and 30k to spend on the aluminium shit-ois.
Hi John. Another good video. You are correct, airbags are an illusion for your vehicle, it makes your combination look like everything is even, but will put massive amounts of downward force on the rear axle, to the point of doing major damage. But while the airbags are smashing the rear axle they will throw extra weight over your steer tyres putting them overweight. This issue is hard for people to get their heads around because the vehicle looks even. No vehicle manufacturers will payout on warranty if you have had airbags fitted and damage to axle or steering items. This also goes for the people who supplied and fit the airbags, they will not cover the damage to the vehicle.
Cheers
Your interpretation defies the laws of physics. 1) Airbags do not "smash the rear axle". The axle is supporting exactly the same load ... the load has been elevated relative to the axle. If you hold 20kg at your waist, then raise it above your head, the load on your feet has not changed. 2) Air bags do not "throw extra weight on the steering tyres." Air bags do not move weight from the rear to the front. Funny how you think rear airbags can smash both axles at the same time. Get yourself in a push-up position and have someone pick up your feet. Have that person hold you horizontal, then lower and raise you by several cms and see if he/she feels "smashed" at the higher level. Also note if you feel changes in the weight your arms are supporting. Now sure, if he / she lifts your legs to vertical, he/she is no longer supporting any weight and your arms are supporting 100%, but air bags don't raise a car to vertical ... we're talking fractions of degrees ... i.e. negligible.
@@trput3824 Hi teput. I had to grab my weight measurements out form when I installed airbags on my vehicle some years back. I'm sorry, you are correct weight does not increase over the steer. But as you blow airbags up weight will increase over rear axle. 2000kg trailer on the tow ball. Rear axle Weight 1705kg. Increase airbags form 5psi to 54psi to level out vehicle. Rear axle weight now 1795kg and vehicle is way too rigid in the rear. Had a quick call around Toyota, Ford, Nissan and Isuzu will not honour vehicle warranty if airbags are, or can be proven to have been fitted. Cheers.
@@davidebsworth7139 With a single-axle trailer, inflating the air bags will not add weight to the rear axle. With a dual-axle trailer, if air bag inflation adds significant weight to the axle (beyond the specific download), then the hitch height needs to be adjusted. There may be too little weight on the tow hitch to begin with, as a sagging vehicle rear end will tend to pivot the trailer over its front axle. Conversely, if you lift the rear of the vehicle too high, you start to pivot the trailer on its rear axle, hence transferring more weight to the tow vehicle. Assuming the trailer is balanced correctly, any added vehicle axle weight is possibly just regaining designated tow ball download with the trailer running level on both axles. Set up correctly, the air bags are not smashing the rear axle ... they are helping to support the weight that should be there.
Yeah sorry David, the replies here are correct. Single axle trailers don’t mean more ball weight when inflation pressure is increased in rear airbags. It does firm the ride as you indicated, but it’s simple to adjust the PSI in the bags to find a happy middle ground between soft and ‘diving’ rear end over bumps (doesn’t feel great in steering either) and too harsh. You mention of putting weight over the front axle is more what weight distribution hitches do, hence the name.
@@GrantHawkey Hi Grant. Sorry I wasn't correct in saying they put extra weight over the steer and will edit that out when I get a chance. My trailer weights are for dual axle trailer sitting level, with as close to even weight on both trailer axles. Funny you mention weight distribution bar as that's what I swapped over to after taking airbags out, vehicle is pretty well balanced and everything nice and legal for the road. My vehicle only has 1780kg max weight on rear axle. The air bags inflated had me 1795 kg, 15kg over weight.
Piss Creekian, an apt new term for those that inhabit the creek area.
Hi John.Setting out next year,semi retiring and buying a Pajero.I am also wanting to put a small 250 road bike on the back of the caravan it will be done by an engineer,do you think this is a good idea to put the bike on the back of the van cheers Tony
Johnno, mate ya got it all backwards here. It’s all about driva skill! I can easily tow 3 ta 4 times me utes GVM and I still get the whole shootn match sideways in the wet like a pro. I’ve gota Sleepy Dreamer 3000, yeah mines the 8 birth cause all me mates love campn and I tow with me XR6 Ute. Good vid though, think I may start lookn at airbags
I've watched an overweight trailer wag the dog of a range rover. He was towing a tiny house down a country NZ road at 100. I stayed behind him.
I am looking at your workshop in the background. Its more a pretty mancave than a workshop.
Good stuff.
Last time I put airbags in the suspension of my trailer, when I set them off the tray sailed clean over the fence and crashed through the roof of my neighbor's sunroom.
All i know is when my airbags blew on prado grande, it was once bouncy ride from Blackheath back to sydney… never again
Do you believe airbags can cause chassis bending due to carrying weight on a different point of the chassis?
Great content but this deserves a white board session 😊😊😊
Cheers mate
Love the Iron Man tee shirt john.
Hi John, a bit late but would the LC 200 or Nissan Y62 be at the same risk as although they have a full body wouldn’t the body mounts allow enough flex to cause the same problem. I noticed you pointed out Pajero which is surprising given the short rear overhang on those. I’ve also noticed that the LC 200 chassis is considerably larger than the 79 series. Cheers Stuart.
My ex wife suggested I fit a Takata Airbag kit to my car, are they any good?
Airbags although level the vehicle, they do infact increase the rear axle load limit and have no effect on the front axle!
I'm hoping you've made interesting content for me!
As a new bee to towing a caravan-id say your video only served to address the numpty factor -namely those knowing or unknowingly overloading front or rear..........yesss/ aplause. For the vast behaving towing public- the answer remains unclear -in simple terms if one sticks to the rules -tow vehicle mass greater than vsn mass -then is there any benefits to airbags ???? On another point one would consider ESC on a caravan to be standard -i was surprised to find it isnt????😮- this should be a given from a safety aspect ..
Hi John, I enjoy your channel. Would you be able to tell us a bit about the advantages of a 5th wheeler over caravans? Gui
Howdy, Iron Man. Do you use WD40 as body wash ?
A four inch grinder disc to shave ? Bolt Cutters for hair cut ?
It would be good to be able to vulcanise a Rubber permanently on the ol’ nine inch nail,
Down there…..for the Ming Moles.
This info is just theoretical. I can say in europe, with permit, you can tow up to 6t on toyota land cruiser 100. Bigger cars like dodge ram can tow up to 12t.
So basically, until auto manufacturers figure out a way to make all commercial vehicles zero emissions, we are possibly wasting our time and money with electric cars. I'm saying this based on the hypothesis that: people are always going to want to tow stuff. heavy stuff. For trade, leisure, whatever.
It means you need an appropriately sized towing vehicle. perhaps an American-sized pickup, japanese light truck, or Range Rover? all are heavy polluters.
Still puzzles me why many Automakers in particular from USA, don't sell their heavy duty trucks in the Global market. Where the closest vehicles we got, are cabover trucks.
So we all agree crew cab bakkies are a basic design fail compounded by trying to tow anything other than a little trailer
How does an Isuzu NPR stack up for towing say a 25_30 foot fifth wheel van I wonder?
Technical question without notice.
When is a banana inverted....?
Semi-tractor trailers?
Another good one
So regarding your comment on the Pig trailers, if you were to have the wheels further towards the back of the caravan, would that make it more stable on the road? And at what point would it be considered too far back?
What you're describing is a typical truck trailer setup (semi). Take a mental snap shot and you'll notice that the hitch load
of a typical truck trailer combination is over rather than aft of the rear wheels. This is what gives it stability relative to the pig trailer setup discussed in this video. Both the influence of pitch and yaw are reduced by setting up a combination vehicle in this manner. That said, however, they might be a better solution, but they can still bight you on the bum.
Pig trailers, however, are called that for a reason. They are indeed pigs.
@@davidbrayshaw3529 Of course! So simple i missed it!!!
@@Spacegoat92 Thankyou. You haven't thought about something 'till you've thought about it! Have a good night.
I'm a bit annoyed my VF SS commodore only has a tow capacity of 1600 kg, while a base model evoke can tow 2000 kg.
You can't control the wind, but you can adjust the sails... vote one nation. 🇦🇺
This is a video about not overloading a vehicle. Not a video about airbags. Take airbags out of the discussion and just talk about spring rates. Is a spring rate that works well for unladen ride quality at 50kph going to be optimised for carrying a heavy load at 100kph? Probably not. Is a spring rate that is optimised for carrying a heavy load at 100kph gojng to be good around town unladen? Probably not. Do leaf spring packs already provide a degree of variability in terms of spring rate as more leafs are "engaged", yes. Do different models of the same vehicle chassis often come with different spring rates, yes. Will a vehicle carrying a heavy load be safer and nicer to drive with appropriate spring rates yes. Can airbags enable you to vary the effective spring rate (giving you a wider rage of spring rates) to account for varying load states, yes. Can this have benefit even if you are only towing at or less than the vehicles tare weight? Possibly. Should you overload a vehicle regardless of spring rate, no.
My air bags are new and want hold air for only a few minutes
Im not a fan as you loose the designed articulaton of the rear suspension