Here's Why Racism is Complicated...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 เม.ย. 2022
- Watch the full episode - • How Anti-Racism Is Hur...
Dr. Jordan Peterson and John McWhorter exchange ideas on the field of linguistics, how language affects our worldview, music, children’s capacity to learn languages, race problems in the US, virtue signaling, wokeism, Chomsky’s universal grammar, and more.
John McWhorter is an associate professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia University. Professor McWhorter is an author of more than a dozen books including ‘The Power of Babel: A Natural History of Language,’ ‘Losing the Race: Self Sabotage in Black America’ and ‘Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold History of English.’ He’s also a regular contributor to publications like The New Republic and The Atlantic.
Follow John McWhorter: / johnhmcwhorter
Check out his new book: www.amazon.com/Woke-Racism-Re...
And his article ‘The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility:’
www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arc...
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I've been on the same page with John's perspective for a long time. I don't reject or discount what happened and the results. I reject the exaggeration of racism and living within that exaggeration. Great perspective.
No you reject racism. I’m certain you have no idea what entailed in America.
The exaggeration is propelled by a system that profits from it. It's major proponents are elitists.
Same here dude. But in my case, I figure it’s different for 2nd and 3rd generation immigrant kids that aren’t white, and have seen what work ethic and societal investment has done for our families. I’m 3rd generation Mexican-Cuban and my grandfather was a butcher, my father owns an auto repair shop, and I am a mechanical engineer. Never in my life have I felt like I was held back by anything but my natural talent and my will to convert those talents into marketable skills. Engineering school was miserable. 4-5 hours of sleep every night, 8 hours of commuting per week, working to pay bills, and incredible academic rigor. I wanted to quit every day. I chose to keep going and now I have a good career. Makes it extremely hard to have a lot of sympathy for those who say the system is keeping them down.
@@degui1224 In 2022 a black man can be president, be General of the Army, be a CEO of a fortune 500, go to any university in the country work in any position they desire, in 2022 America, are we all going to sit here and pretend the country hasn't changed at all from 1940?????
@@degui1224 This way of thinking is dangerous. You’re not even black, yet you’re going to generalize the population. And certainly, when you have almost 13% (a very small amount) of the population that typically resides in the same poor neighborhoods around cities, then obviously they will share similar stories. This doesn’t mean you can generalize their thoughts though.
Very eloquent guest. Speaks truth to the issue of Race not just in America but here in South Africa as well.
Yes...and...there's racism everywhere...
Find Erec Smith, a black professor of Rhetoric in the USA speaking against this also. He has done some interviews with Benjamin Boyce, one quite recently.
The only way to shut racists up is to prove them wrong, NOT TO PROVE THEM RIGHT.
Yeah cause Africans love blacks from America. 😆
this guy is very hard to listen to. there is so much wrong here that its hard to know where to start.
there is no institutional racism against non-whites in the united states, or in the wider western world. there are laws written to specifically benefit non-whites at the direct expense of whites. these countries are almost all losing their white majority at the same time. if there were "institutional racism", how do these things occur simultaneously or just each on its own? also, give specific modern day examples. the "inequities" are not a result of racist attitudes. they are a result of genetics and the extended phenotype. arguing that echoes from the past are a current issue is a "pose" to mitigate personal responsibility of the black individual, the black parent, and the black community as a whole, specifically their horrendous leaders and excuse making speakers, like this guy.
the portion about wasting your life basically attempting to blame whitey for your ills is on point, but then again, what did you just do the minute before you said that. he is hedging.
the truth about black kids not doing as well on standardized tests is because they have a lower average iq. plain and simple. this guy obviously has a higher iq and either projects it onto others, expecting the same out of them or is in denial of the plain fact that there is a full standard deviation difference between blacks and the national average iq levels. the real problem here is calling that fact "racist", or implying that a person that would say such a thing "racist". thems the breaks kid. like my black buddies would say "it is what it is."
all of this talk about the "test is racist" is the left's brand of racism of lower expectations. the real problem here is changing standards to accommodate blacks instead of funneling iq variations into where they fit. color shouldnt matter. performance is all that matters. if you cannot pass a standardized test, it isnt because of your skin color, its because you either simply do not possess the aptitude or didnt put in the work required. the issue comes in when blacks fail en masse, and the egalitarians cannot explain it away and must resort to fixing the thing that proves their worldview inadequate by lowering the standards. saying that the tests are racist in todays world is likely more a derivative of the cultural marxism (ideological subversion, critical theory, or active measures - whatever label you would like to place on it) that we are experiencing which seeks to enforce an oppressor/oppressed dichotomy on our society so that they can gain power through the echo chambers of the left, than a plain excuse for why failure is prominent. i do not think that this guy is even aware of its existence.
by "pose", he means that its a way to excuse black failure at every level of societal measure by claiming racism. watch the news. it isnt about racism. its about genetic dispositions and plain inequality in the phenotypical level between the different human phenotypes.
you want to claim there isnt phenotypical differences and that we are all the same? explain the NBA. the NBA is an example of a closed and complete free market system that rewards value with dollars. they do not care what color you are, or if you are still basically a child. they dont care if you were poor or what situation you are from. they will reward the best basketball players with the most money. period. now explain why the player base in the NBA is consistently ~75% of african american stock while maintaining that we are all the same. also consider the fact that this ~75% is derived from a national talent pool that is only ~15% african american. i understand that there are more "world" players these days but a) those are mostly europeans which counters this argument, and b) this trend is decades long. go ahead. tell me why this happens in a free market system based solely on performance while maintaining an egalitarian worldview and that genetics dont matter and that human taxonomy shouldnt be applied to include the phenotype level. ill wait. the fact is that when black do well, no one cries racism because there is no reason to excuse failure.
its really sad that there are discrepancies. but that doesnt erase them. the patterns are plain as day to anyone paying attention. it doesnt stop at education either. people are just so afraid to speak the truth because they are scared to be called racist. that, to me, is not the worst thing you can call me. i would much less like to be called dishonest or to have a lack of integrity.
Even if racism could be ended, humans will find other reasons to discriminate against each other.
Of course, just look at football matches. People will always be at each other's throats
This.
Yup. Just look at Japan and how a genetically identical people divided themselves into clean and unclean people based on occupation and property ownership.
As they already do...
Class and economics is a huge influence too. There are many clubs in the UK where class and solvency is the main reason for refusal of membership. Colour of skin is just another layer.
I'm interested in hearing more between these men. As an American, this is one of the most important discussions to be had in our country. We need open, honest discussion.
Being honest would mean admitting that diversity is not a strength and acting on that fact. There is no data suggesting that it is a strength for anyone but those pushing this nonsense to divide and conquer certain countries.
Good luck on open honesty from the left.
We had open, honest discussion, up until Obama took office. The fact that a black man could get elected to the highest office in our country should have been the last nail in the coffin of "institutional racism". But Obama and his party revived the concept and used it to propagandize black Americans and keep them voting Democrat. The rhetoric has only gotten worse, as the Left/progressives felt new strength.
You’re not wrong Geezer but it’s fairly easy to push the collective mind of society to understand an important truth and what makes it true.
@@yourgrandmashouse1970 haha yeah, alright, I find that extremely dubious and almost ridiculous
John McWhorter is one of the great minds of our generation. Glad J.P. is giving this underrated intellectual a wider platform. He explains better than anyone how woke racial discourse is hurting the people it claims to defend. I'm a high school teacher and a black woman and I experience the damages of this rhetoric on a daily basis.
Annie, you are the hero here! The one they both spoke of spending a lifetime addressing this very difficult challenge. May God richly bless and encourage and strengthen you everyday.
Maybe returning to SEPERATE institutions is the answer..Seperate development so RACES cannot be compared....and each safe and happy within themselves..within their own cultures
@@davidverster9523 I don’t believe that’s the answer yet. I don’t want to give up on the idea that we (the black and white races) will one day get over our differences and embrace our similarities.
God bless you Annie for making your life to take on the fight.
@@davidverster9523 this is the only answer and everyone will be better off for it.
This channel is an absolute pleasure. I cannot thank you enough everyone involved. You are all truly making the world a better and more educated place.
Agreed, this is the difference needed in the world.
and free! also everyone has access to these!!! I'm so happy seeing him dude I'm high but I'm here I love him0
@Pirupami Not even on the same level. Nothing said that hasn't been said before with no exploration or explanation as to how he came to his conclusions. Search out those that teach/want you to think rather than tell you WHAT to think.
Would you say hes an absolute pleasure to listen too, if he sthe opposite?
It is positively enthralling to listen to two genuinely learned people describe the problem of our age so succinctly and clearly.
Here I thought that rational voices no longer existed. Then, like a light from the heavens, Jordan and John appear on my feed.
Amen! It’s honestly delightful to hear two people speak so precisely and expressively and with such thoroughly-examined beliefs. It’s like, if there are any famous people who I hope rub off on me a little bit, it’s these guys.
As a biracial byproduct of ‘white’ and ‘black’ I find John McWhorter’s POV from the ‘black’ perspective is quite beautifully articulated and Dr. Peterson’s intense curiosity from the ‘white’ perspective as one of the most refreshing dialogues on race I have heard of recent.
Since I was too black for white people and too white for black people I’ve never had a team to identify with in the war of race-politics.
Thank you for all that you two gentlemen do!
A while ago (last year?), Glenn Loury said that one of the most surefire ways to reduce racism (of any kind), is through mixed-race marriages and children.
Does that make you a Halfrican American?😆
Just a goofy term I made up but haven't attempted to use in person.
I've got a niece and nephew same as you and I hope they feel similar to you on these things- tho I fear what influence my "woke" sisters (not their mom, but my other sisters) and society may have had...
@@roscodogg my brother always went be “the halfrican” on his social medias 🤣
@@shok24199 thank you for this anecdote!
@Pirupami an excellent page!
New Discourses is also good
This man perfectly illustrates all of the seemingly nuanced issues of the issue.
I don't think he is necessarily. I think it's plausible that standardized testing could discriminate against black people. Whether or not that's actually the case, I'm not sure. He makes it sound like the idea, in and of it self, isn't at all plausible.
@@starsky1012 I understood it as the default position of the test being racist was an easy way out of an underlying issue that was way harder to solve.
“Seemingly nuanced?” So the issues aren’t actually nuanced, it just seems that way?
@@amanky11
Im speaking in the context of those that use the subtlety of the issue to purposefully ignore the problem as a whole. I.e the pearl clutchers that excuse todays problems on past occurences.
@@starsky1012 so black people in average is less competent.
These guys speak with such precision and ingenuity that it's like watching a magic trick. I am so delighted and surprised by the structure of the sentences that I sometimes chuckle out loud from the pleasure of observing something so skillfully done. It is distinct from an agreement with their ideas and had more to do with the enjoyment of the poetry in the way they speak.
Well said. It takes a genuine command of argument and language to be this surgical. It is like watching two expert jousters at play.
Not only is the outcome excellent, and revealing of cores truths, it is enticing to watch. It ends all too soon (even in the longer form of this interview).
"You live a life that's abbreviated because you're exaggerating how bad it still is [...]"
This is vastly more than just how it sounds.
This is profound. This statement alone is a better way of saying what I wanted to say to my own minority (autistic people) for the last decade.
John isn't just good with words he is immensely intelligent.
You know what I think, integration was deeply misunderstood by black America people. They weren't supposed to give up everything, they were supposed to continue to build their own establishments while being able to access the larger market. Now we live in an age where ALL of their markets are completely monopolized and they don't have breathing room for their own inventions/ successes, they have to be "included". And this realization, the lack of opportunities and control comes out extremely hostile.
For example: The Gaming industry was developed by white and Asian cultures simultaneously, now they want diversity but gaming has been a thing since the 70's with established characters and lore and culture. You can't suddenly implement new diverse characters that weren't established from the beginning. It feels like you're jumping on a band wagon you didn't help build... but here's the kicker - a black man named Gerald Lawson helped revolutionize the cartridges, why didn't he help recruit more black creators? It's too late to cry about it now, rather start from scratch.
Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks, White Liberals" provides an excellent overview of the history of black Americans from the end of the Civil War and up to implementation of the Great Society programs. That was a huge setback for blacks in America.
It should be obvious to most people that the predominant reason black people are not performing as well as white people is due to racial discrimination in the past, leading to a lack of generational wealth + higher black incarceration, which in turn leads to poverty due to the lack of social security in America. And enough studies have shown a direct correlation between poverty and crime, which keeps the cycle alive.
There's a lots of huge set backs for the black community. Most of them designed specifically to set them back for the benefits of whites who didn't want to have to compete with them. The deal essentially wasstruck with poor whites. If you just make sure blacks are at the bottom of the ladder below the poor whites they'll be on board.
Dr Sowell is a genius!
@@reedirokaj you should check out dr Cornell West!
@@johnseaverton1820 yea I’ve read West as well as Dyson,Anderson,etc.
"You live a life that's abbreviated because you're exaggerating how bad it still is" ... speechless. This, this is exactly what I wanted to express to my fellow autistic people all my life.
This applies to a lot of people around the world to far outside the realm of the topic of the discussion at end, which in itself is immensely deep already ... damn. John is incredibly eloquent!!
JP is sounding so strong! 🙏🏼
I know he’s marshaling his capacity carefully and is probably exhausted for days - but I thank God he’s doing this well & pray for his continued improvement 🙏🏼❤️✝️
Jordan is in the middle of a book tour as well. I’m seeing him in Seattle next month 😀
If you go to the full interview (link above), you'll see that it was recorded on September 27 (probably about when McWhorter's book was published)
Glad to hear this man speaking out against what is essentially pre-supposed victimhood and therefore entitlement to things not earned.
The "presupposed" victimhood label needs nuance. Being a victim of racism is not atypical in America, especially if you live in certain environments and around certain ethnocentric cultures. Victimhood means what? Nobody gets up in the morning and says their victimhood prayers. White people like the word because it absolves them from having to deal with the reality of racialism in this country and other countries. The question is can you fight racist instances in your life without creating an environment that stifles personal productivity and at the same time doesn't make members of the dominant culture victims themselves. In the past 2 years I'm seeing more victimhood in other races...for the identical reasons "that black people" complain about. This is reflected in the CRT craze. If you ask 100 black people in the black community have they ever heard of CRT, they'd probably think you meant CPR. I live in a black community. I've never heard CRT mentioned by any Black individual...ever. In John's words. It's over Exaggerated.
I agree with you @Patriot, the pre-supposed victimhood, the entitlement without effort-these things are what is against a race-not another race.
@Satoshi Nakamoto Excuse me. Why do you think these scholarships "for need" exist? And most need based scholarships in the US go to whites, as they are the majority. Similarly, most welfare recipients are white for the same reason. You are writing like you have not been in this country very long. And I mean that honestly. Whatever set asides that are given to blacks and Latinos are miniscule...even if they unfairly target Asians. The impact is an exaggeration...fair or not.
@@Crystalblue58 "Not Earned"? Outside of Standardized Tests, where do we see this "not earned" acquisition? There is exaggeration and victimhood on both sides of this issue. I had a white guy who is a drug addict tell me he lost out on a job due to Affirmative Action. He could barely put two sentences together. Like Jesse Smollet, he is fantasizing about being victimized. The guy was a dolt.
@@TrillEverything I wouldn't expect black people to know what CRT is. It's not about them knowing exactly what it is, it's about the ideas behind the theory.
THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT RACISM - it is a discussion of why “wokeness” (phony virtue / virtue signaling) is so prevalent, why false + exaggerated claims of social & systemic racism are so prevalent.
In other words, it’s a discussion of the motivations behind Leftists’ false claims of racism where it doesn’t exist, and their proposed “solutions”, which are toxic, counterproductive AND *actually* racist.
Snap!
Correct and correct.
Well said, and a superb observation my friend. I realized that when John McWhorter started talking about the exaggeration of racism in todays time.
True.
Their motivation is to divide and conquer. There is no data suggesting that "diversity is a strength", in fact, plenty of data shows that the exact opposite is the case.
This is so intresting, things like this go unnoticed. Everyone just lets it go. I love this talk. It makes more sense than teaching anti- racism. All teachers should watch this talk
White people don't like that they are the ones with poor attitudes sometimes. It's not in the past. It's very recent. Lots of modern white people are racist towards professional black folks and they have to suck it up. It's not exaggerated. I wasn't allowed to attend white sleepovers for fear of what those white kids would do to me outside of my parents supervision. Look what happened to that married black woman who was found dead at her white friends sleepover and no investigations. Sorry but you're not allowed to dismiss black people's experiences because you're a little uncomfortable?
You are Racist do not like teaching you being racist
I think the real issue is we'll never really know when we've ended racism. From my perspective we mostly achieved that in the late 90s and early 2000s because it's illegal to discriminate against a person professionally.
If the measuring stick is ending discrimination personally not just professionally that'll never happen ever and it's a pipe dream because there's always going to be someone who reads a news story or a historical event and gets this crazy idea.
I'd argue we're going too far Into the fight with "anti racism" because that means we've already won and we're still looking for problems that aren't there.
Now we have a generation of young people who see past discrimination against minorities and want to use present discrimination against whites due to a perceived past wrong that they never even experienced and that generates more racism in both directions.
@@v.5442 the goal was to suppress that natural tribal instinct all humans have of in group preference long enough that in 2 or 3 generations a new "normal" or "in group" is identified and in that goal they succeeded.
Take for example the way Irish people weren't seen as "white" for most of American history. Eventually rhr in group preference for what is considered white was suppressed enough and now we don't even think about it anymore.
It'll never happen. Humanity has always been and always will be divided into tribes. If white people go to Africa, they will get even worse racial treatment than blacks get in America. But for some reason blacks are allowed to complain. They want a predominating group of people to bend their knee to them. No one else in the world does that lol. Can you imagine whites going to Africa and saying "we need more white people here. We need more whites in African politics, culture, business, etc" and then demanding that African governments comply by rioting, looting, and firebombing businesses, homes and government buildings?
@T B there's certainly an argument to be made there that genetics affect way more than we're aware of, like say mentality, but at this point pandoras box of globalism has been opened and I don't think jt can be closed again.
It will never be eradicated as horrible as that sounds it’s built into humans from being in tribes maybe hundreds of years from now but not anytime soon.
@@smokingcrab2290 they would shoot you if you tried that… instead in America we build statues for drug addicts lol
This guy beautifully articulated my thinking as a black person observing the current “woke” black rhetoric.
This guy also said in another video- "[Most Black people exaggerate the role Racism plays in the lives.]"
Others would crucify you for not going along with it
It will never end because people are dim-witted and LOVE to argue. You can defy every single stereotype, but people will still judge you. Standing still and keeping quiet still makes people mad at you. I stopped trying to fight racism and just accepted it. I stand my ground and I’m not afraid to tell people off if they try to put me down.
@@reallyreallyreallyreally it’s the right thing to do. Obviously I’m not a crazy SJW who thinks that all whites are evil KKK members. But I’m not going to deny that there will always be tension when I’m in the room. Whether it be through a snide remark or a mean glare.
Facts
You are not accepting anything from other people by letting them live/think as they please and by doing the same yourself. You accept that people are not perfect & that they change NOT when you wish for them to do so and that need not be your own FATE.
Standing up for yourself is good of course.
However what if it happens at your job? Or if your are discriminated against at a restaurant by an employee?
Are you willing to take legal action?
Punishment can have an effect on those who violate discrimination laws.
It is against the law to discriminate based on race,gender or age in a work environment.
@@jonathandrake8640 bizarre how you’re literally telling me to sit back and accept racial discrimination. You racists are something else…
Refreshing to hear someone dive into race with nuance and thought. It sounds fresh though it should be standard. A few things. not so long, just a few years back I noticed a lot of people writing "Racism is learned" sort of on memes with an image of peacefully interacting young people. Easy enough statement to agree with, fast forward to today you find institutions literally teaching racism. In fact the net result of the inclusivity and diversity training is probably more racism, or at the very least tension. As a younger man in high school I remember a distinct experience. I was friends with essentially everyone of multiple races, most of my friends centered around playing basketball because that's what I did. One day I was chatting with a buddy who happened to be black and he said, "It's not that we don't like white people, it's that nothing feels like it's really ours." I instantly knew what he meant, this was around 2003ish and race relations on the whole in the U.S. were good and ever improving. He said all he wants is a shot at making his way in the world. He wasn't playing the victim, he wasn't saying it to imply he doesn't have a shot, he said it like he knew that's exactly what he was doing. Racism is definitely taught in modern day. Thousands of years ago with tribes of all kinds being relatively the same skin tone, seeing a different tone may jar you. We don't have that today, and I went my entire life viewing people as people without anyone every telling me or giving me a course or anything, there was never any tension, and no one was guilty of anything. Fast forward to today and like... this desire to separate and teach race and skin tone on a foundation of actual real live injustice on a rampant level is just, well to me it spells an alternative motive. It's the lowest hanging fruit and everyone's taking a bite.
you grew up in a way that most of us should have, together with diverse people and open minds. There are people who work hard to make sure this doesn't happen or that it only occurs to a point
@@iunderstanphotography2780 It's been an interesting life. I say now as my 'philosophy' both as a forward looking statement and an overview of how I've been.. and that's just to be whatever change you'd like to be in the world. If more and more people, hell, all people saw skin color as something that was like hair color, eye color, and other features of course with the added culture and historical context but, still. setting that aside and treating people by how they present their self as a whole then... that's just how it would be.
0:59 that's exactly how I feel, thanks to him so much for articulating it.
I'm always looking forward to Jordan peterson videos, there is always something new to learn.
I've been discriminated against. As such I know it's really, really hard to distinguish (in general!, sometimes it's really clear) between a: discrimination based on the trait, b: someone just having a bad day and c: someone just disliking you for other reasons. Really, really hard to know.
@Godwinsname
A .. if your traits as an individual r being discriminated by a Marxist. It's racist.. It's fascit to shut anyone down for an opinion from anyone's mouth for the exception of being in privet entities.. B, some who has a bad day and decided to target u or someone's els in any compactly because that individual is having a bad day, obviously that idiots can't think clearly and is brain washed to think it's ok to act out with revolution Marxisum.. C. Ppl who don't like u.. Than mabe u should question y..?. That's not a well enough defined question to give a probable answer.
So true
True!!!
I have the same question for most asians, a lot of asians think they get discriminated, but i would ask is it just a bad person with bad temper.
I got yelled at by a white man when i ride a bike on street. I don't take it as discrimination, just a mere bad manner.
Exactly. These stpd people project the motive too easily and with zero evidence.
Always appreciate listening to John. Great to see a discussion between these two
I remember when I was young, I'm 35 now, everywhere I looked the question "what is the meaning of life" was being asked. As I got older I noticed this became rarer and rarer. At the same time, my generation was being told that there is no meaning or purpose and you might as well just have fun in life. This consumed most people that I knew and it seems like we did such a good job of pushing purpose and meaning to the margins that the generation coming after us craved meaning, purpose and to be a part of something that mattered so badly, that they allowed themselves to be consumed by these movements while suspending their critical thinking.
@@joer9156 why?
Yep. It doesn't seem this gets better.
Modern society has adopted Epicurean philosophy en masse
@@Spyblox007 I don't know if what Joe R is saying is absolutely true, but the idea is that you can control the whole world if you keep people at odds/divided like this. One could argue that this is how globalism has been able to be implemented so completely. And it does go into the concept of "never again," referencing the Holocaust (i.e., if they control the world through the banking system, the world's most powerful governments, etc., then something like that tragedy wouldn't be possible ever again). The power they have over the global system would likely ensure it. Thus, they promote destructive beliefs/behavior toward the other cultures they deem a threat to their power.
That's the idea, as I understand it at least.
@Pirupami just watched one of his videos. I agree with basically everything he said, except when he said that life has no meaning but to be ok with that. Life has loads of meaning, what he is doing himself is extremely meaningful.
Thanks for the tip! I'll have to watch some more of his videos.
Cypress Hill: "Woke is the way of the walk"
Soul of an Assassin until I die. Cypress Hill - Red Light Visions.
🎧🎶🎵Hits from the bong...🎶🎵🎧
Hehe
HaD to sorry
But sadly this is something I can't understand... how they could just a kill a man.
Honest informed conversation between two people trying to find a truth together is both immensely powerful as it is rare.
IMAGINE if the news/press spent more time pursuing truth (and admitting mistakes with corrections as prominent as the mistake was) than chasing soundbites-click-bait, how better off society would be.
WOW! John McWhorter seriously has things figured out, he speaks truth and talks about our problems all without pointing fingers or blaming people. That moment when he was talking about virtue and didn't blame the other side for their 'false virtue' but instead tried to understand and explain why people might get tangled up in it was great. I hope I learn from that
He kind wants us to celebrate mediocrity when it comes to racial issues and he doesn’t like to mention the fatigue from constantly having to jump hurdles in industry because of the colour of your skin honestly speaking maybe it’s cause I’m British but due to my experience what he’s sayings a lot more detrimental to life becoming better for us but I also think that’s because here in the U.K. racism is subtle it’s worse to be called racist rather than be racially abused and they run with that in industries in everyday life damn even when you walk into a shop which is why I wish these people who decide to speak for “all black people” would stop their tunnel vision on the states because they’re words are detrimental to stuff getting better outside of the US
@@Shhhhhhhhhjj The fatigue you are talking about exists for any outsider group living in a society designed/run by the majority group - a flaw of democracy/culture. It's not solvable unless you move to a place with only one racial group. And even then, there will be disputes and discrimination based on differences because these problems are part of human nature.
That's why he's right about activists' approach to racism being flawed and disempowering. These ideas about microaggressions, subtle personal racism that can't be objectively proven, and similar narratives are useless for societal progress. They can't be objectively measured, so they are just personal opinions/complaints. And thus, policy and plans can't improve these things because they have no objective basis. So the only purpose of these CRT/CRT-like concepts is for individuals to use them to acquire social/political power, but it doesn't solve any real-world problems. Instead, they perpetuate the very things that we want to get away from - they promote the racialization of everything. And that kind of thing boxes people in, forcing them to choose sides, thereby perpetuating the same racial biases forever. So there is some truth to the statement that eliminating more racism requires us to stop talking about it. This should be obvious, as you can't define everything in racial terms and expect racial ideas to lessen - it's delusional.
Curtis Yarvin
It's so refreshing to listen to two gentlemen have an intelligent conversation.
I admire John for speaking his truth to blind collective ignorance in his community. In my experience growing up in poverty as a hispanic in the 60's, I was bullied, not just by the white folks for being incredibly intelligent, but also by my own kin and neighbors for being a "Poindexter/Book Worm" until I fought back. I vowed to show them what was what. I would "walk my talk."
I dare to say that there's a lot of "cultural learning" within the community itself (be it black or hispanic - spare me the Latin-X categorization!) that needs to be let go, especially having lived in a predominantly black neighborhood myself while growing up. A fair amount of this (though certainly not all of it) in my experience originates in organized religion, and Christianity specifically --regardless of denomination -- and the expectation that someone else ("Jesus") is coming to save you, even if it's an apocalypse, and you're the one getting saved. Please. No one is coming to save us. And that includes many of our social and academic institutions -- the ones who promised that poor little hispanic kid the world.
It's ultimately up to the individual, and this is the real mystery of life - that fact that it's an unavoidable struggle for Truth. Not the word but the reality of it. It's a "Soul" thing. And the process is irrevocably tied to not only creating order out of chaos but destroying that which needs to be destroyed -- and that often means the cultural and collective ties that one is born into. More often than not, I've witnessed it manifest as estrangement from family and cultural heritage. It doesn't have to be that way but then we're talking about an awful lot of work, which may well divert one from getting on with it. Maybe some folks get lucky and get to keep those ties. I didn't. I got to create my own family with whom I had more shared values (not all of them! LOL Family being family :)). And even more importantly, I kept my intellectual curiosity and drive and achieved far more than I ever would have, had I blindly accepted what not only the haters said but the seemingly well-intentioned advice the supposed mentors and authority figures had for me -- to accept my lot and not strive too hard for what I most likely couldn't achieve. Cause after all the talk, the expectation was that I would fail.
And here I am. Blessed beyond words. "Woke" for real !!! And let me tell you unreservedly, that has been the best revenge !!
@@ajp8849 is this a joke? Spamming me on BTC/ETH investments? I KNOW this isn't Dr Peterson. Gimme a fucking break!
@Pirupami hey there, I did look him up and found what he has to say interesting because he espouses openness to our realities, with an emphasis, IMO, on kindness.
However, I don’t think that there is no meaning to life. We just don’t know why we’re here. Hence the collective emphasis on religion, in the West especially. And think about the fact that one man, whether real or mythical - Abraham- gave rise to three different religions that “fundamentally “ cannot relate. In many ways, this reality is like a purgatory, if not an outright hell.
There are many examples of union with a unknown seemingly higher power by many mystics in the past, and I am speaking about mystics of many different “faiths”.
The forgotten element is prayer. Yep. That simple. And yet not really. The hypocrisy of those who claim to be the righteous ones, always in a public setting, is that they don’t have the first clue. Learn how to pray. “Alone with the alone”. Read Corbin if you can. And that’s only from an Islamic perspective.
As for the “noise”, which mythically led to “ the great flood”, in more than one religious/mythical sense, learn to ignore it. This is not an easy task to be clear. But it’s necessary in order to see past the morass of collective thought. That same collective force which leds to “woke-ism” and cancel culture - the current terms attempting to describe something which is far older, and recurrent in history.
If this sounds lke cryptic nonsense, then you’re not ready. “Haven’t done your homework.” That’s all I’m able to say.
@Pirupami Butler is relevant, especially what he has to say in The Corporeal Fantasy. I would recommend you read up on Pre-Socratic philosophy --especially Empedocle's views if you're not aware of them because he discusses the importance of paying attention to sensory awareness. In this sense, a lot of folks are 'asleep" as Butler describes. And it's because they're not actively processing their sensory awareness. This is the key to mystical awareness. But it's obviously not easy to do.
Reading and learning about ideas is one thing, while processing these ideas and finding workable solutions is completely different. This is why Dr Peterson is so impactful. Individually, through his own process of development, and then through his work as a clinical psychologist, he possesses a wider understanding of the human condition than most.
But ultimately we all have to undertake these "processing" steps ourselves. The prioritization of outer experience, and the importance of Ideas, often those of "Others" (whether they are scientific, religious, or political (!)), is given the ultimate primacy in Western Culture, and unfortunately draws one away from the "Inner Person". This is not something that can be shared or transferred to a person through a book, a lecture, or a one-on-one conversation. It must be personally experienced.
It reminds me of the ridiculous unfortunate comments made in 2012 by Neil DeGrasse Tyson about Islam, speaking about Al-Ghazzali's writings specifically, being responsible for the decline of Science. The same folks who experienced a Golden Age while the Western World (and Christianity specifically as a world view) was in decline. He read Al Ghazzali (likely THE INCOHERENCE OF PHILOSOPHERS) but didn't "get it" and then spewed his opinion, based on his own Scientism.
Love both these guys. Sometimes it's fun to listen to couple guys that you know are smarter than you discuss hard issues.
This is why he is absolutely my favorite speaker on racism. I've been reading him for some time. Excellent mind. By the way, his book's on linguistics are also fantastic.
Having worked in the real-estate industry I can assure you that a bank can look at cold hard colorless numbers and know which neighborhoods are safe investments and which neighborhoods are risky investments. It has zero to do with color. The question we should be asking goes much deeper than institutionalized questions. What makes the value of entire neighborhoods drop? Mainly (but not exclusively) crime statistics. What makes black neighborhoods higher in crime? Some prominent leaders in academia (such as Thomas Sowell, Candice Owen's, Larry Elder, even Barack Obama) suggest fatherless homes are a major contributer to crime. If we are to fix things we have to stop asking all the wrong questions and look at the hard and uncomfortable questions. America is a country that has black judges, governers, mayor's, police chiefs, senetors and even a black president recently. Color does not dictate how far you can go in this country. Your state of mind most certainly does. I am white, by today's standards I am not successful at all. How did that happen?
Did you not hear what he saying about red lining? These neighborhoods were divested from in the first place simply because they were predominantly black. Past discrimination has effects on generational wealth, and more poverty equals more crime generally speaking. It’s a chain effect - sorry, you can’t untie the past from the present. (And Candice Owens as a “Prominent figure in academia” lmao) Btw mass incarceration (re: present discrimination for nonviolent crimes) is most likely the #1 cause for fatherless black homes 🙄
@@Bill-ou7zp Exactly.
Lots of people in this comment section don't seem to understand that a lot of your success in life when living in a country with little to no social net comes from generational wealth, something black people have not been able to create as much due to past racist laws and attitude.
Another one is household conditions, and it has been proven countless times that those who grow up in poverty are more likely to do crime.
Combine this with the past racist attitude and you have a disproportionate amount of black people in jail, especially men and thus fathers.
Lack of generational wealth in combination with bad households are the root cause of disproportionate black suffering.
Inherent racial biases are there but they are not the main problem.
If we want to fix this problem we should look at the dire American Prison complex and the lack of social security.
However, I do agree that we should thus not focus too much on inherent racial biases from, example, white to blacks.
If the black community put the same energy into achieving a better social security net and a reform of prison complexes we would actually see improvement imo.
@@Bill-ou7zp As if investment or mortgages would have changed anything lmfao. How many Marshall plans worth of aid have gone to their "communities" and countries of origin? Nothing to show for it but corruption, crime, and more begging. Even if they had been successful from the very beginning, they would have still been used by the true elites as a wedge/splinter group to destroy the autonomy and liberty of western citizens. But it doesn't matter anyways, they and other rainbow coalition groups won; considering they make up 90% of the planet and are set to engulf our countries by around 2050. Enjoy our land! You totally earned it!
@@Bill-ou7zp We can’t keep using past injustices to justify current inequities
People love to say "fatherless homes are the cause" as a cop out answer, but never dig deeper into that.
What do you think caused fatherless homes in the first place? Maybe because the "leaving fathers" didn't have a good childhood either and didn't go far. And that "leaving father" didn't have a good childhood because he was raised by blacks living in the 40-50s who never got a fair shot a life due to segregation, red lining, mass incarceration, and general discrimination in the workplace that denied them the ability to build any generational wealth or relevant skills. These things aren't independent of one another.
Racism that happened as early as the 40s absolutely has a direct impact on today. A 20 year old today has grandparents that grew up in the 30s-40s, meaning any economic hardship they had as a result of jim crow, glass ceilings, and other racist policy directly affected the childhood and quality of life for the 20 year old's parents, and in turn that 20 year old today. My grandfather who worked as an elevator engineer in 1960s-70s New York couldn't get a promotion past a certain level, despite him being excellent at his job and even still training those who were at a "higher level." When he asked why, his boss straight up said that it wouldn't look good because the higher ups wouldn't "want to see a negro moving up the ladder." This is a true story too, I've seen the handwritten letter from that boss. And that's just a minor, minor example of how skin color would prevent people from making more money and amassing more generational wealth for their children. I'm in no way "struggling" today, but I'm also not an average example, since my grandfather came to the US from another country. His family in Trinidad had built up some wealth over the years that let him do that, which is completely different from blacks in the US, whose ancestors had absolutely NOTHING when they arrived as slaves, and even at the turn of the 20th century, were still treated lower than any other skin tone in the country through legal loopholes.
Black neighborhoods that were poor and rundown with crime in the 40s-60s are still the same poor and rundown areas. Yes, you CAN have live in those situations and still pull yourself out, but that's not at all the normal. And what does it say when you think that for in order for the average black person to succeed at the same level, they need to have a better "state of mind" and exert a much better work ethic? The overwhelming average can't do that. Blacks were legally denied property, job positions, credit, equity, etc. up until only the 60s-70s, with most of it ending "for good" only just by the 90s. Whites didn't have that happen to them. Blacks were specifically excluded out of G.I. bill benefits that granted whites huge boosts to property ownership and credit. Those are both things that exponentially increase in value over time. That means on average, whites had up to 30-40 years of enjoying those economic benefits before blacks could do so in the same way. Just because you're white and experience hardship doesn't mean anything, and it especially doesn't mean that color and the racism that occured in the 1900s is somehow not relevant today.
“The public is not to see where power lies, how it shapes policy, and for what ends. Rather, people are to hate and fear one another.” -Noam Chomsky
Yeah, this communist nailed this one. Good that he is aware of it. Is he aware that leftists in general abuse this hate and fear to get power?
Subtle virtue signalling
From the man who said we should starve the unvaccinated
This is the nitty gritty you need to get down to in order to work through this and many issues in life. Great content and conversation here. Need more of this.
It is so pleasant to watch a discussion of two people who don’t interrupt each other, are respectful and interested in the other person‘s points and on top of that are very intelligent. That’s a very uncommon combination nowadays
Very sound points made here. This man has a very clear view. I will have to check him out when I get some more time. I look forward to seeing the whole show!
John McWhorter has put it into words. There is the sense that most of the outrage is artificially produced and promoted to the ends of unquestioned power for the groups that manipulate it.
Not artificially produced. It's exaggeration. But when you live in a society where you are a minority, it is easy to think people ALWAYS see your minority status...and exclude you or mistreat you upon that difference. And if you are in wrong environment, you can have an exaggerated experience. Being born in Boston in 1962, I saw an incredible amount of racism. And John is spot on! It lasted until about 1991. For me it lasted until 1994 when I left the trades. And it's not like these people are dead. They may be less racist today, but they are still not excited if their grand daughter brings home a black guy. We all need to be more honest. We all can do better.
@@TrillEverything Good comment. Also, people tend to gravitate to others of their own kind, not just race, but class and cultures and subcultures. I don't think that's racism, but something that happens all over the world and has to do with comfort. But I think that can be mistaken for racism when a person is in a minority. That's when people start being worried about microaggressions, etc., because they don't quite feel accepted as part of another group, or like they are understood. I think all people should make greater efforts at making others feel welcome.
6:43 JP's "finding the word i am looking for" face is phenomenal.
That's probably the most interesting conversation I've seen in a long time
Wow! Listening to Jordan and John speak so beautifully is amazing. How they use language so intuitive that even with an understanding of the meaning, I had to pause and reflect before I could understand the true context of what they were speaking. This seemingly causal but serious conversation really demanded a lot of hard listening and concentration to keep up. Both speakers must be speaking from great knowledge of the subject to articulate between each other as they did. I am not American so have no understanding of the topic beyond movies and news media. The seriousness of this conversation is frightening and taking everything on face value, must be addressed urgently as it appears that it is damaging to American Society. I see similar issues within my own country so I feel that this issue appears to be a particular flavour of attitude within Western European society.
A very respectable conversation. Great social evaluation. Very honest and worth hearing.
I love that on this channel we can see people of different understandings and cultures and races meet to FIGURE THINGS OUT! Not just attention seeking one liners for social media.
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ....
I’m interested in what Jordan means by “beauty” and how it relates to virtue. In honesty, at times it’s hard for me to digest his meanings for certain words that I’ve never heard in that context.
Has Peterson ever talked to Thomas Sowell? I'd love to see that!
This isnt really Peterson's usual topic, so no. But it would be interesting. See, Peterson gives racism 10 minutes not entire 2 hour lectures about it, probably since he's white. So he mentions it in passing.
@@deansusec8745 have you heard or read about the history of Dunbar High School? Read about it in Wealth, Poverty, and Politics (p.p. 192-196) by Thomas Sowell.
Thank you Jordan for always seeking and speaking the truth as well as focusing on solutions to such important issues. Love you brother💗🙏✌
I first read McWhorter around 20 years ago and he spoke to a lot of the things I felt as a young black man. Specifically, his point that yes racism exists and yes racial barriers have been constructed in the past. The question to those in the present, though, is how much is that effecting you now? It's harder to get hired for a job as a black person. Assuming that's true, what are you doing to combat that? Are you making yourself more desirable by increasing your skills? Are you starting your own business and not relying on others?
It also didnt help that, while the narrative was going around in the 80s/90s that 'standardized tests are inherently racist', I was consistently scoring quite high on those tests. Stanford, PSAT, ACT, SAT, GRE, it didnt matter, I still scored high. Particularly in the ACT, higher than even my white classmates. So I could never suss out *what* part was racist. I grew up on the South Side of Chicago. I never attended a regatta, but I knew what one was because I read books. There are ways to alleviate perceived deficiencies without jumping straight to "it's racist; get rid of it!"
It's only gotten 'worse' over the last 20 years because, for many things, there's simply no excuse in not knowing stuff anymore. Anyone with even an ounce of curiosity on a subject could go to the library, get on TH-cam and watch a competent, teaching professional explain the concept to you in great detail. So what your local teacher sucks a explaining long division. Watch a vid of someone actually good a teaching. My grad school professor once told me, "You have the world at your fingertips." Such a true statement! It may be cliche, but, turly, the best place to start looking for a helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
I read a story when I was a kid, about a Convent, full of nuns, the nuns were all virtual saints, the most heinous “sin” worthy of the greatest censure in the Convent was not lifting their habit, such that the hem wore out from abrasion on the floor when they walked. Those with worn hems were the lowliest and given the most onerous tasks, kept up at night and fed short rations. It’s all a flex.
From what I understand: racism is akin to nationalism. Wherein people love their own nation and put its needs above all others, people put their race's interests above all others - and the thing is everyone is tribal.
Goes without saying this spells chaos for a diverse empire- especially one becoming radically more diverse
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ....
@@bill_the_butcher Racism doesn't mean you have to hate other cultures either, it means you prefer your own. Which by the way almost everyone does..
This was one of the best explanations of racism I’ve seen. Terrific thank you.
I am waiting for the era when this channel has 5 bilion subscribers and 200 bilion views. I always enjoy serious talk. Everything should hear this conversations in they're life for relaxation and consciousness improvement.
Man, John McWhorter is brilliant. Adding him to my short list of people that I should listen to! I really admire these types of modern social philosophers who are incredibly articulate and astute. JP and McWhorter are chief among them. I also admire William F. Buckley Jr. And I suspect Hitchens was probably a treat to listen to as well, but I haven’t listened to enough of him to make that judgment confidently.
"virtue is difficult to obtain."
And THERE'S the life's truth at the heart of birth of the entire SJW/woke cancelling culture of today's keyboard warriors. Virtue signaling is the misguided and lazy attempt to do an end run around the lifetime of principles, discipline and sacrifice that the truly "virtuous" posses. He's right, it is hard, that's why so few obtain it, most of us have to settle for trying to be decent, and even in that I personally often fall short.
Our current cultural scoffs at delayed gratification, they believe that wisdom and morals are things that they possess fully formed out of the womb. Any challenge to that worldview is slammed as "shaming" or comes from a perception born of white privilege. It's so lazy that it doesn't even really require that you think the right things, only that you say them often and loudly enough to demonstrate that you know what they are. This view seems to have crossed the line from ideology to theology, and "cancelling" is their sacrament. It is both a show and the article of faith.
In 380CE the Emperor Theodosius made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. It wasn't very long before Christians went from persecuted to the ones doing the persecuting. Back then you would go to the town square and hurl rocks at the heathen or sinner. This new religious cult does it too, only now the rocks are Tweets. While it certainly doesn't put your immediate survival at risk the way a stoning does, it's intent and motivation behind it is one in the same.
They NEED to have an apostate to burn, because when you lower the bar of virtue to such a degree, the need to cast stones becomes even more important. You need to have the unvirtuous to hold up if only to demonstrate you're not one of them. It's enough to make anyone with a shred of conscientiousness want to give up and hide.
I think McWhorter is being fat too charitable in his opinion that they're not doing it because they're lazy, I absolutely think they are so. No, I don't think the want to be so, but that doesn't change anything. Most addicts don't want to be addicted, they didn't start out with that as a goal, none the less...
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;
There is a weird phenomenon I notice where it seems that people would now like to move on past racism toward what is best for humanity. But there seems to be that from the shadows some people want to keep racism going for malicious reasons.
An important, sometimes difficult discussion between two wise, understanding people is a very nice listen indeed.
Excellent discussion with two outstanding thinkers! The Power of Babel and Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue are both intreaging and informative reads. 10/10 would recommend.
This conversation was so satisfying, I’ve always found Jordan’s crusade against blm and radical “anti racist” organizations good, but lacking in nuance in understanding “institutional racism” or “racial barriers” , John’s breakdown was so helpful.
Oh so you hate black people?
He just hidden white supremcist😂
@@Bestlivexg You just took all the nuance out of my comment and replaced it with garbage 😐
You have humans since the start of humans having tribe mentality. Even perfectly mixing all races, people will still be short or tall. People just argue.
Yep. Or rich or poor. Or educated or noneducated. Or gay or straight. Believe in God, or doesn't believe in God, or just believes in different Gods. Humans will always fight each other over what we believe to be good or true.
Or by interest, or by intelligence, or by eye color. Or hair color. It just happens.
Classic John McWhorter at his best… I can’t believe this is just nine hours ago I commend you for singing the same song for so many years. Thank you both
Great discourse! I really hope to see more of Mr. McWhorter, and hopefully more of him and Dr. Peterson!
I’ve experienced multiple debates about black children and test scores or education and lack thereof but I personally haven never in my life heard someone call the tests racists then proceed to talk about how we need changing testing for black kids. This is my personal experience but there are many factors that lead to the lesser education and test readiness of black communities. He mentioned one; Redlining.
Exactly, I’ve never heard that either.
I never heard it until recently on social media. There are idiots now claiming that math is racist. It's not well-reasoned academics making these claims but rather ignorant activist types who know very little but are given prominent platforms to spew this nonsense.
These conversations are very real in my world I live in Atlanta with all the racial tension throughout our history I like to think we have been at the forefront with talks about institutional obstinance. Glad to see people are talking about this.
Absolutely brilliant conversation, thank you both.
I would absolutely love to hear this same discussion with Thomas Sowell.
The only lives that truly matter are those who respect the lives of others.
When I get called out for screwing up, sometimes it’s because the person calling me out doesn’t understand what really happened, or is just being an ass, but *usually* it’s because I actually screwed up.
I have a black colleague who thinks whenever he gets called out, it’s almost always due to racism, and rarely because he actually screwed up. This concept of racism really prevents him from implementing self-improvement, and holds him back. Therefore he won’t correct his faults, which means he gets called out for the same mistakes repeatedly. And he uses this as further evidence of racism. It’s a vicious circle.
So you have been convincved that you arte always in the wrong? Or usually as you put it. Your comment is scary to read.
@@n0namesowhatblerp362 are you serious? No, they weren't convinced that everything is their fault. They know how to take accountability when something is their fault, rather than constantly pulling the race card as an excuse.
@@dakotadennies2254 And qwho does that? Ass- u-mptions
@@n0namesowhatblerp362 not an assumption. It's common sense
Dr. Peterson was at Harvard when the famous book "The Bell Curve" by Harvard professor R. Herrnstein and political scientist C. Murray was published. In that very book (which I have read) the data quite convincingly demonstrates that not only is there a gap in cognitive ability between black and white students, that gap also does NOT disappear when regulated for socio-economic (i.e., environmental) factors. For example, the authors compare black and white students from the same socio-economic background and still find the same gap in cognitive ability, on the average.
The world reflects this gap in cognitive ability. Blacks win practically all athletics competitions, football World Cups, completely dominate in Basketball and so on, but they do not reach highest intellectual echelons like whites and asians do (not in proportionate numbers anyway), for example Nobel Prizes in physics or a Fields Medal in mathematics. As scientists, we apply what is called Ockham's Razor, meaning that we look for the simplest explanation for a phenomenon first, before turning to more complex explanations when the latter failed. The simplest explanation for the black - others gap in cognitive ability does indeed seem to be inherent (i.e. biological). As it looks to me, we probably have to accept this bitter (?) fact and see how we can move on from there.
At any rate, even brave people like Peterson and McWhorter do not seem brave enough to include this (inherent factor) in their discussion. Is it not condescending to brush it under the carpet?
Let me add that all of this is actually not a problem if we reach the point where we judge people as individuals and not as members of a group. But this seems to be outlandishly difficult for tribal homo sapiens to accomplish.
It’s really enjoyable listening to Dr Peterson talk with someone he can actually have a conversation with.
Woke is where"putting down others to build yourself up" reaches new heights.
Chris Wallace:
“How do we end racism?”
Morgan Freeman:
“Stop talking about it.”
It was his dad, Mike Wallace, who asked MF the question. But yes, I think Freeman was 100% correct.
So denial is the answer...gotcha...
@Satoshi Nakamoto No that's literally the definition: In psychoanalytic theory, denial is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
@Kathryn Wilson Society has gotten better and I agree racism should not be exaggerated but at the same time racism is very very real and has very real consequences to already traumatized groups. Again the problem is that white people have a monopoly of power so their shadow projections are more easily internalized by less powerful groups. I do not believe that racism is the biggest issue for African-Americans but I do believe historical trauma and internalized low self concept is the biggest issue, racism from white people is just the icing on the trauma cake.
My mom who is only 59 years old, spent the first years in her life in an apartheid like system in the south where she was not able to drink water from certain fountains, go to school with white people, go to non-colored bathrooms, etc. That was her first 7 years of life. She was also harassed by the Klan....that will have an impact on her and how she raises her own children.
If we stopped rewarding victimization with monetary settlements, people getting fired from their jobs, students being asked to move their seats, and countless pity-parties on social media....racism would die out. The problem is that people INSIST on measuring their victimhood like it's a competition. And race, gender, and orientation are the leading methods people use to do that in 2022.
I think honest virtue is truly empowering, truly empowering to mean the right forces gain more influence on reality, and the concept of true empowerment itself is beautiful. From what I’ve ‘wrestled’ with I find it impossible for virtue to exist without its core element being empowerment of the necessary forces, you can think of virtue as established ways to allow deserving forces to influence reality, and these forces can embody themselves in the form of objects, humans, ideas etc, that at the end of it all empower humanity. At least it’s roughly that because I also believe what we believe is empowering to humanity is inbuilt rather than logically formulated, we only try infer what it is. True empowerment seems like a subset of beauty, the type you experience through action in life, through virtue. I have another speculation on what the other forms of beauty are but it seems irrelevant to this case. I think though, therefore, the main issue is that we take different forms of empowerment for true empowerment, and end up with genuinely tough disagreements to resolve, a misunderstanding of what good is, what virtue is. It’s why illusions of beauty form. So the greatest evil here must be that which prevents the misunderstandings from being addressed, like shutting down opposition, obscuration of fact, or straight up lies. Information isn’t something to toy with so easily.
Even if racism was ended there wouldn’t be an acknowledgement of that, it would just require more labor to keep the hustle going.
The issue of racism in South Africa has never been challenged the same way as other issues and the end of Apartheid in South Africa has not translated to changes in attitudes. What is different now is that racism is covertly is expressed.
As a male in his 20 this channel is one of the reasons that i can still hope for a future
John McWhorter is one of the best. I would have loved to have him as a professor during college.
They're both right. There are people who use this narrative as a crutch and an excuse from their laziness and conversely there are others who propagate this for virtue - to seem like better people.
Very interesting and the two combined nailed it beautifully.
I much prefer when you talk about psychology rather than politics
One is rooted in the other though 😅
@@TheGahta Very true but to be honest he's way out of his depth when it comes to politics. Most of the times his political opinions are an attempt to seek understanding out of a place of ignorance. It's admirable but it's no different from the common man thus we don't gain much from it as the audience. Occasionally with such well informed guests, it's a win for us too but when he brings in government shills like the clown Frederick Kagan to spew out government propaganda, then it becomes an unfortunate event to say the least.
In contrast when it comes to psychology & psychosocial matters, he's a pundit👌. His opinions are well informed thus even when one disagrees with him one can't help but appreciate having learnt a lot from an alternate view point. He truly moves the needle in regards to psychological and progressive thought.
@@realalchemist7206 how can one out of his depth talking about his own opinion and how he got there?!
Lets face it, you have different opinions but you cant argue for where you differ hence this bullshit mental gymnastics, sounds much more likely
If not point to your best example where he is alegedly out of his depth and you think your not
@@TheGahta what did that guy say before he deleted his comment?
@@markshortall3384 some wall of Text about JPs political opinion and his guests
Guess i really Hit the nail on the head though if thats the reaction 🤣
Reminds me of a tidbit I was told about the development of science as we know it today. As we began to know more and discover more, we upgraded the tools we used to measure because it was required in order to understand our world better. Apparently many people went against this, claiming the world should only be explored through our God-given senses. As times progressed and the ideas and implications surrounding racism changed and became more nuanced, they seeped into different areas of society and required more to see than to just look at the surface; they weren't as obvious and in-your-face. Through this man's explanation of his POV, he sounds to me like those who opposed using more sophisticated ways of looking at the world. I find it sad that many stop there and assume they've found the end goal...just takes us two steps back.
Was this in the original podcast? I can't seem to remember it
Very good interview and eloquent guest.
I will share my opinion about racism. I believe racism is inherent of the human being but no because of the skin color but because of a feeling of comradery of brotherhood. One tends to have protective feelings towards ones community, country, etc. I've seen and read this happening all over the world in all ages and times and from all races not just caucasians, people do not like others coming into their territories and if they do they better adapt themselves to our ways.. in a very simplistic way that is how it is. Racism is part of the 'bad' of this world, we have to deal with it, it wont be erradicated, just like any other injustice wont. But we do have to understand our nature and why people act the way they do. I believe everyone should be trated equally in front of the law. To the Law we are all equal but you can not expect that from EVERY ONE INDIVIDUAL there is out there. There will be people who do not like blacks, whites, asians, latinos, and you might think how stupid is that? Well i agree, but that is how they feel and how they think and it is only them who will suffer the social consequences of their behavior but we cannot use the government to chase around 'racist people' if all they do is NOT like other races. As long as you do not act ina violent physical manner towards another individual, you should be left alone with your opinions and thoughts.
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;
Right on.
Imagine if my white English ancestors had wallowed in self pity about being invaded and enslaved by the Romans, then the Vikings. We invented things, became stronger, then conquered the world. Such a tiny country too. Look at the size of Africa compared to Britain.
I wish!!!
The size of the nation was so important. A nation on a large land mass would be surrounded by armies eager to crush any signs of that "liberty" nonsense.
Great Britain, once unified, had no foreign armies, and a strong domestic navy. No foreign warlord was going to give our King a Mussolini retirement for signing Magna Carta.
Correction, your ancestors invent things, not you. Don't take credits from some other people just because you're of the same race. It's like rich kids born with a silver spoon take credit from their father by saying it's his own effort for being rich. You're no different than those people who claim being bullied while it's their ancestors being bullied by other races. You're taking all the glories from yours.
@@zhouyou28 Correction, I have, and continue to, invent plenty of things. As do the rest of my nation. That is why we continue to innovate, leading the world in many aspects.
@@JoeBlowUK in your dream, properly. A guy invent things spend time on internet express his subtle racism. Highly doubt you do, by the way. You're not leading, more likely following the U. S behind like a puppy. If you still believe you 're leading you should get your head check with reality. And you prove my point by taking credits from other brits. I doubt a countrys success is contributed by guys like you. The real contributors are too busy to contribute, not spend time here to show his superiority just by claiming his from UK
Wow... this is an excellent conversation! I need to watch the entire video.
What a pleasure to hear two articulate men discussing real issues in an honest and insightful manner. Finally! (Now off to Amazon to find some of Prof McWhorter's books!)
@ Conway Bown While you’re shopping, consider purchasing Wealth, Poverty, and Politics by Thomas Sowell.
@@gooddognigel9992 Thanks for that. Sowell is another great thinker! Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check it out. Cheers.
People need to put down their weapons and just accept each other. Stop thinking in black and white. Be the best person you can be and encourage those around you to do so as well.
We all want to win, but that does not mean that we should want others to be crippled.
well said. i concur
We live in a world where saying "Stop thinking in black and white" would lead you to being labelled as racist by some people. It looks like we are going backwards, but with a twist on the language.
You are a right wing fascist, according to leftists.
That is the problem, leftists.
Humans are biological beings, conflict of interest will always be a reality.
Yes. But theirs no money to be had with that.
Media and politicians and psych community profit from the rhetoric. How will they pay rent and eat?
Their lives matter first.
( Lmfao 🤣🤣🤣)
Hugs... I hear ya.
Many POC need the idea of racism. These days people find it so difficult to simply take responsibility for their own actions and mistakes. If you are told from birth that you are not responsible then... it's a convenient excuse for any challenges in life and your own failures.
I hate the term POC. Even as someone who would be considered POC
You missed the point of this discussion completely.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💢💯
Except America is a very inequal country when it comes to wealth. There is almost no social security net, so people from non affluent backgrounds are already fighting an uphill battle.
Combine this with racial discrimination in the past, which leads to a lack of generational wealth among black people, which leads to poverty, and you end up with higher black incarceration, since poverty has been proven to correlate to crime. Combine this with blatantly racist judges in the past and you have generations of single parent households, with no generational wealth, and no way to rely on a social security net.
This perpetuates the cycle and the only way to change it is to reform the social security net and prison complex.
Those are the root causes of the problem. Not modern day racial biases.
Two of the most brilliant men of our time having a discussion?
Sign me up!
I would love for Jordan Peterson to talk with Michael Sugrue. He is a former professor of World History at Ave Maria University and taught at Princeton University. He's very well-educated about philosophy and I feel that they would have an incredibly fruitful discussion similar to Peterson and John Vervaeke. If I could highly suggest one future guest, it'd be him.
It's not that complicated.
1) Don't judge people by the color of their skin.
2) Don't FALSELY claim others are.
3) Ignore those who do.
Conquer it on an individual level first, and you'll find that most of these "systemic" issues don't really exist.
I get fd up when I am asked my race and the answers are first Nation, African-American, or white. Wtf
I have a feeling that Racism, as a concept is just using for certain politic groups, and like Denzel Washington said; "it's not colour, it's culture". So what happens goes beyond Race.
Just blew my mind with how articulate that was, that applied to society back then.. Wow wow wow. This could be applied to so much, well said sir!
It's the easiest way to pick someone out - they look different. Then attach a bunch of meaning to it out of convenience, and negative meaning out of fear, resentment and spite. It's so easy to do. No wonder it's essentially universal, and only suppressed with deliberate, concious effort.
If you were blind and listening to this conversation you would not know which man was white or black. Just two educated well - spoken men having an honest conversation about a cultural issue that is being distorted in order to divide us. Men like these two will bring people together. I admire both.
McWhorter's persona here is the 'aping of virtue' - He says to JP... 'You're getting it in that...' Well, what praise!
All he's saying is he admits that his community now is using the real difficulties of previous generations as an excuse to have it easier today by 'posing' as if it's still the 70s, 60s, 50s or earlier.
@The King Unless you're a bent, career politician like Biden or Pelosi, people in positions of authority influencing society, or in the workplace in the 70s (which would make them 30 to 50 at the time) are definitely not in those positions now. 30yrs old in 1970 would make them 82 this year.
I am a very liberal person and I really appreciate the depth of this conversation.
Very sensible conversation, thank you. Not often that the rational middle ground is found with this issue.
Racism is not complicated! Insidious yes!
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ....
This is the crossover I've always wanted.
Love how JP articulates his questions.
Thank you JP!
One of the most idiotic notions is that somehow laws, censorship, and threats are going to eliminate a mindset created by ignorance
It actually does the opposite.
Not ignorance. Common sense. It's evident you've never lived in an all black neighborhood.
I lived in the worst part of Oakland, Ca. for two years.