Taper keys fit on the taper with maxim surface contact. You need to take it out. Look for and file the high spots top and bottom, re-fit, remove, file the high spots, repeat repeat repeat. Until the whole key is touching and gripping top and bottom. Sorry but Id genuinely bin this and buy a taper key blank made from key steel and fit it properly. Flywheels coming off mid run are no joke.
Gibb key: All the way through but with minimal protrusion at the back, Taper, top side on the entire length (very slight taper.) I must have filed and fitted a thousand of them... And let's get the terminology right; The keyway is what the key fits into.
Adam, you can mill an item like that in your lathe. Put a milling cutter in the chuck, clamp the work down on the cross slide, pass the work on the cross slide back and forth moving it towards the milling cutter until you've removed the amount required.
agree with this. Another way I've done this type of job is to clamp the piece flat in the 4 way chuck and do a normal cutting operation. One other thing - look up 'draw filing' - life is short I know, but you can get very accurate and true surfaces with a hand file but it takes time.
The key needs to finish up with a fully bedded top surface and a gap between the inside of the gib head large enough to remove it using a Bull's horn chisel. The top surface of the key also needs to be (Fitted) i.e. chalked and filed again until it shows a full bed. In addition to that, the tapered key also needs to be long enough to make contact over the full width of the pulley or the gearwheel. Shaft keyways are cut using either a broach or a slot drill, both of which are about 3 thou less than nominal size and commercial Gib Head keys are about 3 thou bigger than nominal size to allow for filing to fit.
I hate to be critical at a time like this, but if you intend to rally that engine, I'd strongly recommend attaching a sign saying something like "Flywheels liable to detatch without warning - Stand well clear - Do not attempt to catch runaway flywheels!"... Another useful thing you can make is a couple of key pullers - one "straight" and one "hooked".. They make key removal much easier.
As an apprentice I was tasked to make my own gibb key pullers as test pieces. Like you said one straight one curved. The curved one was given the nickname Sinbad's sword by my tradesman. Now, they get used as wedges for everything as taper keys become rarer with the amount of taperlocks etc that get used. So much so that other engineers ask to borrow it, asking for Sinbad's sword by name!
@@jonathanwalker7638 We used to remove Gib Head keys 60 years ago with 'Bulls Horn Chisels' which were shaped as the name suggests. Probably the same thing as what you call Sinbad's Sword.
Those keys only fit where they touch. The key should be test fitted several times with marking blue to ensure the taper on both the key and fywheel are matched. The key you have ‘made’ is unsafe and risks failing and leaving the flywheel free to fly off at speed. The key will obviously therefore be easy to remove except the one with the hacksaw undercut which will shear off rapidly.
There are some jobs you can do on the cheap, but those Gibb keys are not one of them. They should be made of key steel then filed, blued, test fitted and high spots removed until they touch down the length of the taper, if you ever take that engine to a show and the engine steward allows you to show it just make sure your insurance is up to date as it's in danger of losing the flywheels in it's current state.
Best way to make a key if you do not have a milling machine is start with some key stock and use a hack saw and file after marking out with a scribe and center punch. Done a few like that over the years and never had one fail.
Sorry Adam, those keys are really not working the way they should - might be worth reading up on how a gib key works and how to fit one correctly - no offence intended 🙏🏻
Gib keys are supposed to fit along their whole length. You blue the key lightly, tap it home, remove it and either file or scrape, preferably scrape it and keep repeating until you have achieved the full depth. the final fit is knocked harder to lock the taper. The "key" you have made is unfortunately dangerous, chances are it will not hold as there are next to no contact area on it due to it being ground with an angle grinder. I'm afraid any positive comments regarding this key are from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Buy the blanks and fit them properly.
Adam, I don’t often comment on anyone’s channel but I can’t help myself. Firstly, the Lister is a J type not an L type. I’m pretty sure I have said before Secondly, they flywheels needs to be tight up to the crack case, this stops the side float of the crank and stops the crank shaft damaging both bearings and putting excessive pressure on the piston and conrod. Thirdly and lastly, please don’t EVER run that engine with them keys in. Key steel is special steel for a start, not any old stock bar. They are tapered to be tight to lock the flywheel onto the crank in all directions and are a precision piece of kit. These are neither precision made or tight and for sure will either come loose or damage the crank and flywheels! They are also too short and you’d never get them out when the flywheels works loose and chew the soft key up causing even more damage. Sorry to be a negative Nelly but this is DANGEROUS!
I’m curious re the flywheel positioning you suggest - are you sure?! Surely the rough casting of the flywheel centre hubs shouldn’t contact the cast bearing carriers?!
@ yes they should. Lister flywheels on this range of engines are machined on both surfaces for this exact reason. The soft and very brittle white metal bearings also rely on the flywheels been tight up against the casing to stop sidewards pressure against them as they are a tendency to snap the outer collar of the bearing off if not supported by both flywheels been tight up. There are exceptions to the rule with some single flywheel engines but these often have bronze bearings in rather than white metal on the flywheel side. The Lister H-R range of engines are what I specialise in.
@@leeslisters that’s interesting - I am only familiar with the CS where I understand that end float is adjusted by shimming the bearing housings, and the sleeve bearing have thrust flanges. Unless the CS flywheels should also be touching the housings?
@@EdwardEngines the CS is exactly the same as the later L type with the 2 inch crank shaft and again, should be touching at both sides. There was never any shims on the cranks of any of Listers of the H-R/CS style of base’s across any of the sizes or even in the multi cylinder version, each part/bearing relies on the next/previous part to hold it in place
@@leeslisters thanks Lee. The only documentation I have here relates to CS clones, which have shimmed bearing housings. Do you have any documentation that details the flywheels touching the bearing housings?
Usually love your videos but i think you may have got this one wrong! You should of used the correct material, and also tought about how you would remove them . Keep the videos coming through
No reason why you can't make your own key, but this is first rate dangerous bodgery. A key should be made from the correct grade of key steel, not some random lump off the scrap heap. The key for this engine will be made to imperial measurements, and as such, the top face must have a slope of 1:98 with respect to its bottom. This can be achieved with careful hand filing, and repeatedly checking the fit with engineers blue compound, and filing away the high spots. The risk of an improperly fitted key is that it WILL work loose, with possible disastrous consequences, there is also the risk of cracking the flywheel hub by just hammering in a badly fitting key. It's worrying to think an engine with a bodge like this could end up running on a rally field. I would guess it would invalidate any public liability insurance as well.
And I thought I was the only one making keys by saying" it only wants a bit taken off", using that method, I had to "make" 4 before the last one actually fitted.
Fitting Keys 60 years ago as an apprentice was a soul destroying job as ours were 3/4" wide, 8" long and tough. The Quality Inspector would not take our word for it but would remove every single key before re-bluing it and checking that it had a full 'bed' and a good side fit. The piecework rate at that time was one old penny per key and the fitter that did them all day long was known as 'Bill the key' man.
a very true phrase, theres engineering and theres bodging, dangerous bodging at that. there's also mechanics and muckanics. Should be made of key steel and correcly blued in and fitted with precission. lets hope no one is injured if and when the flywheel comes loose. The pulley keyway on the crankshaft is way way out of engineering tolerances.
its ok to hand make them but you should have made them out of key steel , depending how hard you knocked them in the ear will probably break off when and if you try and remove them , i like your philosophy of make rather than buy carry on the good work
Grinders are ok but what is wrong with using a flat file. It's only metal work and you can get a lot done with hand tools.. A hack saw with a new blade and some good files and you can get a lot of work done and it's satisfying. It's not like you need to use it to cut chaff and run a thrashing machine.thats essential to your living.
@garydixon852 since recent days. Rallying an engine,they have to be side on with the viewing barrier for elf and taking chances. What Adam is doing is what many of us in the stationary engine universe are doing to keep these engines alive so to speak, we don't have access to tool steel ,or mad tolerance levels .we get engines to run from scrap . Sorry for the rant ,all the best to you.
@@shedhead00 That does not make them less dangerous. That bit of bailer twine most fences I have seen at these events are made of, are not stopping anything. You don't need mad tolerance levels but some idea would be useful. This is presented as an acceptable way of making keys, it is far from that. You can tell the engineers from the comments, you can also tell those that are not.
Taper keys fit on the taper with maxim surface contact. You need to take it out. Look for and file the high spots top and bottom, re-fit, remove, file the high spots, repeat repeat repeat. Until the whole key is touching and gripping top and bottom. Sorry but Id genuinely bin this and buy a taper key blank made from key steel and fit it properly. Flywheels coming off mid run are no joke.
Gibb key: All the way through but with minimal protrusion at the back, Taper, top side on the entire length (very slight taper.) I must have filed and fitted a thousand of them...
And let's get the terminology right; The keyway is what the key fits into.
Adam, you can mill an item like that in your lathe. Put a milling cutter in the chuck, clamp the work down on the cross slide, pass the work on the cross slide back and forth moving it towards the milling cutter until you've removed the amount required.
agree with this. Another way I've done this type of job is to clamp the piece flat in the 4 way chuck and do a normal cutting operation. One other thing - look up 'draw filing' - life is short I know, but you can get very accurate and true surfaces with a hand file but it takes time.
The key needs to finish up with a fully bedded top surface and a gap between the inside of the gib head large enough to remove it using a Bull's horn chisel. The top surface of the key also needs to be (Fitted) i.e. chalked and filed again until it shows a full bed. In addition to that, the tapered key also needs to be long enough to make contact over the full width of the pulley or the gearwheel.
Shaft keyways are cut using either a broach or a slot drill, both of which are about 3 thou less than nominal size and commercial Gib Head keys are about 3 thou bigger than nominal size to allow for filing to fit.
I hate to be critical at a time like this, but if you intend to rally that engine, I'd strongly recommend attaching a sign saying something like "Flywheels liable to detatch without warning - Stand well clear - Do not attempt to catch runaway flywheels!"...
Another useful thing you can make is a couple of key pullers - one "straight" and one "hooked".. They make key removal much easier.
As an apprentice I was tasked to make my own gibb key pullers as test pieces. Like you said one straight one curved. The curved one was given the nickname Sinbad's sword by my tradesman. Now, they get used as wedges for everything as taper keys become rarer with the amount of taperlocks etc that get used. So much so that other engineers ask to borrow it, asking for Sinbad's sword by name!
@@jonathanwalker7638 Did exactly the same. I still use them now. I made mine from tempered lorry leaf springs.
@@jonathanwalker7638 We used to remove Gib Head keys 60 years ago with 'Bulls Horn Chisels' which were shaped as the name suggests. Probably the same thing as what you call Sinbad's Sword.
What a bullocks of a job !
Those keys only fit where they touch.
The key should be test fitted several times with marking blue to ensure the taper on both the key and fywheel are matched.
The key you have ‘made’ is unsafe and risks failing and leaving the flywheel free to fly off at speed.
The key will obviously therefore be easy to remove except the one with the hacksaw undercut which will shear off rapidly.
There are some jobs you can do on the cheap, but those Gibb keys are not one of them. They should be made of key steel then filed, blued, test fitted and high spots removed until they touch down the length of the taper, if you ever take that engine to a show and the engine steward allows you to show it just make sure your insurance is up to date as it's in danger of losing the flywheels in it's current state.
Best way to make a key if you do not have a milling machine is start with some key stock and use a hack saw and file after marking out with a scribe and center punch. Done a few like that over the years and never had one fail.
Sorry Adam, those keys are really not working the way they should - might be worth reading up on how a gib key works and how to fit one correctly - no offence intended 🙏🏻
As "doubleboost" would say "piss wobbly slack".
Gib keys are supposed to fit along their whole length. You blue the key lightly, tap it home, remove it and either file or scrape, preferably scrape it and keep repeating until you have achieved the full depth. the final fit is knocked harder to lock the taper. The "key" you have made is unfortunately dangerous, chances are it will not hold as there are next to no contact area on it due to it being ground with an angle grinder. I'm afraid any positive comments regarding this key are from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Buy the blanks and fit them properly.
Adam if you must risk making a key please put a very tight jublee clip on to the shaft to keep the key tight
Adam, I don’t often comment on anyone’s channel but I can’t help myself.
Firstly, the Lister is a J type not an L type. I’m pretty sure I have said before
Secondly, they flywheels needs to be tight up to the crack case, this stops the side float of the crank and stops the crank shaft damaging both bearings and putting excessive pressure on the piston and conrod.
Thirdly and lastly, please don’t EVER run that engine with them keys in. Key steel is special steel for a start, not any old stock bar. They are tapered to be tight to lock the flywheel onto the crank in all directions and are a precision piece of kit.
These are neither precision made or tight and for sure will either come loose or damage the crank and flywheels! They are also too short and you’d never get them out when the flywheels works loose and chew the soft key up causing even more damage.
Sorry to be a negative Nelly but this is DANGEROUS!
I’m curious re the flywheel positioning you suggest - are you sure?! Surely the rough casting of the flywheel centre hubs shouldn’t contact the cast bearing carriers?!
@ yes they should. Lister flywheels on this range of engines are machined on both surfaces for this exact reason.
The soft and very brittle white metal bearings also rely on the flywheels been tight up against the casing to stop sidewards pressure against them as they are a tendency to snap the outer collar of the bearing off if not supported by both flywheels been tight up.
There are exceptions to the rule with some single flywheel engines but these often have bronze bearings in rather than white metal on the flywheel side.
The Lister H-R range of engines are what I specialise in.
@@leeslisters that’s interesting - I am only familiar with the CS where I understand that end float is adjusted by shimming the bearing housings, and the sleeve bearing have thrust flanges. Unless the CS flywheels should also be touching the housings?
@@EdwardEngines the CS is exactly the same as the later L type with the 2 inch crank shaft and again, should be touching at both sides. There was never any shims on the cranks of any of Listers of the H-R/CS style of base’s across any of the sizes or even in the multi cylinder version, each part/bearing relies on the next/previous part to hold it in place
@@leeslisters thanks Lee. The only documentation I have here relates to CS clones, which have shimmed bearing housings. Do you have any documentation that details the flywheels touching the bearing housings?
Don't know if this helps but I allways drill and tap the end of the key so as you can put a slide hammer in to extract the key 😊
In the next episode we'll make a chocolate fire guard
Evening Adam ,get yourself some engineers blue,it will help with marking out,nice work 👍
Dychem for marking out, micrometer blue for fitting, very small amounts though. I have seen videos where they plaster it on, absolutely wrong.
If the Gibb comes lose your know why they are called flywheels 😂😅
Usually love your videos but i think you may have got this one wrong!
You should of used the correct material, and also tought about how you would remove them .
Keep the videos coming through
No reason why you can't make your own key, but this is first rate dangerous bodgery. A key should be made from the correct grade of key steel, not some random lump off the scrap heap. The key for this engine will be made to imperial measurements, and as such, the top face must have a slope of 1:98 with respect to its bottom. This can be achieved with careful hand filing, and repeatedly checking the fit with engineers blue compound, and filing away the high spots. The risk of an improperly fitted key is that it WILL work loose, with possible disastrous consequences, there is also the risk of cracking the flywheel hub by just hammering in a badly fitting key. It's worrying to think an engine with a bodge like this could end up running on a rally field. I would guess it would invalidate any public liability insurance as well.
I'd always believed the taper on a Gib Head key to be 1: 48 but as you say the fitting is very important for safety reasons.
And I thought I was the only one making keys by saying" it only wants a bit taken off", using that method, I had to "make" 4 before the last one actually fitted.
Fitting Keys 60 years ago as an apprentice was a soul destroying job as ours were 3/4" wide, 8" long and tough. The Quality Inspector would not take our word for it but would remove every single key before re-bluing it and checking that it had a full 'bed' and a good side fit. The piecework rate at that time was one old penny per key and the fitter that did them all day long was known as 'Bill the key' man.
@@mrmyorky5634 I was neve an apprentice, I make mine so they work, but they would not pass Billy the Keys inspection.
fitting keys is a precision job, this is not
Failed in every way, if they don't fit accurately (each one hand fitted) they are not holding anything on, let alone a heavy flywheel !
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!
a very true phrase, theres engineering and theres bodging, dangerous bodging at that. there's also mechanics and muckanics. Should be made of key steel and correcly blued in and fitted with precission. lets hope no one is injured if and when the flywheel comes loose. The pulley keyway on the crankshaft is way way out of engineering tolerances.
@@haroldbell1097 I dont think he knows just how dangerous what he is doing actually is. Unless of course he is playing us to see what is said here?
You need to get an electric file as they have a bit more finesse than an angel grinder and a lot easier to control
its ok to hand make them but you should have made them out of key steel , depending how hard you knocked them in the ear will probably break off when and if you try and remove them , i like your philosophy of make rather than buy carry on the good work
Grinders are ok but what is wrong with using a flat file. It's only metal work and you can get a lot done with hand tools.. A hack saw with a new blade and some good files and you can get a lot of work done and it's satisfying. It's not like you need to use it to cut chaff and run a thrashing machine.thats essential to your living.
not a keyway * A * key
A little bit of wisky and warm milk,small amounts,that should make u feel better,👍
Great job, good to achieve some thing like that. All the best Bob
I admire your enthusiasm, well done.
Good grief....!
Hi Adam, Well done on making your own keys 🔑 🛠️🛠️🛠️⭐️👍👌
Really?
Good evening Adam
Well done Adam.
As they say practice makes perfect, and the price of new is silly
But way way safer. These engines should not be run in public.
@garydixon852 since recent days. Rallying an engine,they have to be side on with the viewing barrier for elf and taking chances. What Adam is doing is what many of us in the stationary engine universe are doing to keep these engines alive so to speak, we don't have access to tool steel ,or mad tolerance levels .we get engines to run from scrap . Sorry for the rant ,all the best to you.
@@shedhead00 That does not make them less dangerous. That bit of bailer twine most fences I have seen at these events are made of, are not stopping anything. You don't need mad tolerance levels but some idea would be useful. This is presented as an acceptable way of making keys, it is far from that. You can tell the engineers from the comments, you can also tell those that are not.
You done well there mr sniffles
Grate job buddy
Adam you didn't make a keyway, the keyway is in the crankshaft. What you made was a key. Not bad for a first try.
Really? Correct in the naming but that "key" is dangerous.
Just want to know know if you suport the farmers cos I guess there will be a lot more farm sales now 😢
Propper job, very mancave approved.
It was nowhere near!