Cold Ferment vs Pre-ferment I Which is Better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- I am a big fan of preferments. The Breads With Preferment playlist on my channel has 30+ videos in it and there are quite a few recipes in other playlist using one preferment or another. The most viewed video on my channel is about preferments.
Generally, preferments are used as a space and time saving method. It is one thing baking a loaf or two at home and having the space to leave the whole dough to ferment pretty much anywhere. It is a totally different story when it comes to bakeries. Producing hundreds of loaves per day a baker would need huge amounts of room temperature or cold storage space which is not practical or cost effective.
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My refrigerator is nearly always full. Therefore, I am leaning toward room temperature bulk fermenting. But for doughs containing milk and eggs, I will go with cold fermentation. I agree that long bulk fermentation produces better flavor than the preferment methods and is less work.
i just tried a 12 hour room temp (23° C) bulk fermentation and the results were not satisfying (i suspect all gluten broke down and couldn't be build up anymore), I will be doing the cold one in the future if i want to wait for the next day, but i think i prefer to do it just all the same day. I would rather start trying to add lactobacillus next to yeast in the dough for flavor development.
@@diaman_dhow much yeast did you use? This is how I usually make a non enriched bread, basically the Jim Lahey method. 1/4 tsp of yeast, works great.
@@MrPauley i used the same amount as by recipe (instant yeast @ 1.8%). I think that after 12 hours at roomtemp (23°C) all flower had been processed by the yeast already. It had rissen way more then double it's size overnight. It looked like a very airy preferment full of bubbles and did not rise anymore during resting/shaping/baking.
@@diaman_d if you care to use the room temp bulk ferment, I'd suggest using less yeast. It'll rise a little more slowly and develop more flavor. Or yeah, the fridge, but I think using 1/4 tsp of yeast makes the whole thing kinda like a poolish. And it's great.
@@MrPauley Aye, i was thinking along that line now. Thank you.
I make my cold fermented sourdough bread for last two years. Usually I keep it in fridge for 45-48 hours, but one I’ve forgot my dough in fridge for 5 days and I can say that it was my best bread.
5 day cold fermented sourdough?? 😳🤤
I have switched to cold fermentation a long time ago. It seemed to be the practical thing for anyone with a career other than baking. The flavour enhancement was just a pleasant side effect. 😉👌🏻
As I pointed out to Adam Ragusea's latest video about this exact comparison:
"Technically, the cold ferment is a 100% preferment."
Thanks for your great content. To me, you are my baking Guru! 👑
🙏
💯 To everything you said!
Thank your for all the great tips, and especially the whole wheat recipes. I'm no longer buying bread at the grocery store, but am making three loaves every two weeks. I usually give one away to friends/neighbours and one goes in the freezer for the second week. Today I added a soaker for the first time of seeds and whole grains. Just took them out of the oven. Butter and hot bread Mmmmmm 😁
I don't have too much space in my fridge, so usually I bulk ferment @ room temperature overnight, then pre-shaping, shaping, and baking when I wake up. It's always given the bread great flavour!
Very interesting to see your stance on cold bulk vs preferment change over time! These side-by-side videos are truly invaluable. (Btw I have cold fermented buns proofing right now :) )
Please write a book so I can buy it. Also, I love your kitchen tools- the glass containers with glass lids, the spatula with a stainless handle.
This is so helpful! I have a hard time staying on top of all the moving parts with preferments and rising times during the week. I have experimented a bit with cold fermentation out of necessity, but it's great to know that I can just jump straight to the fridge now. Thanks! Love this channel, so informative!
I just started baking bread a few months ago, and I couldn't figure out why I should use a poolish if I could just ferment the entire dough in the refrigerator. This video explained this beautifully. Thank you! I just subscribed.
I switched to cold ferment about a year ago. Day one, I mix a double batch, divide in two & refrigerate in glass bowls. Day two, I take one out, fold twice over time, shape up & bake. Day three, repeat with the second dough & freeze tie finished loaf. Plenty of really tasty bread with just a little work each day. Keeps me in bread for two weeks (unless I give a loaf away.)
I've just started doing cold ferment and I agree it has a much more robust and complex flavor. I'm a fan.
I only cold ferment pizza dough. I've tried using preferments but the taste is not as good. I'm more amazed by this no-kneed method. I'm going to give that a try and see if it's just as good. Thank you for your video.
I really enjoy these comparison videos - so helpful for us newbies and it really helps to shorten the learning curve! You know how to keep it simple without losing the important details - Thank you!
I've been watching and re-watching your Principles of Baking videos along with Bake With Jack videos and I'm FINALLY putting the pieces together! I made your Christmas tree foccacia and was so impressed with the fold and cold bulk ferment that I believe I will being using that method from now on for all my bread. Thank you so very much for all the knowledge you share! (Kind of regretting spendind so much on a Kitchen Aid 8qt. professional mixer now...)
I too got one of those collecting dust in the corner 😂 it's great for brioche though!
It is amazing that none of the hundreds of videos I’ve seen have ever explained the difference as well as you have. I just assumed the preferment was the traditional classic method so I stuck with it. Now I understand and will switch to cold bulk fermentation for all its advantages especially the more flexible timings so I can actually go out and leave the house to do things!
I am headed to my kitchen right now to duplicate your experiment. I am absolutely fascinated!
I asked a question about this last week and you promised a video, thanks. The thing is I was talking about no knead with making the dough and letting it ferment on the counter, not in the fridge for like 12 to 18 hours compared to poolish, etc. That is all I do except at times I will make a dough and let it ferment in the oven for 2 hours to bake that day. I can seriously taste the difference with the longer ferment tasting much better. The only time I did a cold ferment was for a Detroit style pizza, 40 hours in the fridge. It was the best pizza I have ever done. Look forward to your video of room temp longer ferment vs cold ferment for the same amount of time. Thank-you Sir !!!
You mean like this? th-cam.com/video/-hcY6xituuU/w-d-xo.html
@@ChainBaker So you had a video from a year ago. Sorry I did not know that. Thank-you very much sir !!!
Brilliant.
Totally agree. One I discovered cold ferment and no knead, through your channel, there was no turning back.
No brainer for taste and also convenience. Dough also great to work with for final shaping.
Great stuff.
I use both, and sourdough! I do a levain in the morning and cold ferment for 2 - 3 days. So I always have dough ready to bake.
Synchronicity ! I learned the no knead method about a year ago using yeast. So just now I started looking for a way to make no knead sourdough and you were the first video I found! So cool, I will try this in a day or two, thanks man!
Excellent vid! Im already doing a combo of pre and cold ferment using sourdough. I mix all my ingredients and do a couple of stretch & folds at 1hr and 2hr. I refrig for 24 hr.then remove and rest for 2hr. I shape and rest until poke test is passed. (about 1-2hrs) and then I bake. Total time is 4-6hr @RT + 24hr @ refrig temp . Excellent crumb, oven rise and color, and never over fermented.
I also do pretty much the same.
Excellent video, as always 👍
That's why (for instance), when I go for biga, I do 100% biga. 100% of the flour is actually fermented, and I just have to adjust the amount of water - usually 75-85%.
I *almost* suceeded with 100% hydration (and a very strong flour: Lo conte Farine magiche Farina Favola Manitoba 100% Americana, 15.5% protein / W460), but such high hydration doughs do require quite a few folds, and I was a bit too lazy on this try 😅
Pre-ferments are indeed only worth it (in my opinion) if you plan to make a lot of dough (for me, when using 2kg of flour or more) or, possibly, when you have to plan several batches with a few hours in between (ie lunch / dinner)
Bravo! Looking forward to watching your next video! 😀
I have been buying pizza dough at an Italian deli and putting it in the fridge because it is a bit of a drive. It sometimes takes a few days to use it if I have three bags of dough. The pizzas always taste better than when I mix my own dough. I thought there might be some secret - a biga or a the type of flour. After watching your videos I am beginning to think it is time in the fridge and once again I have the hope of making our own great tasting pizza dough at home. Thanks for this! Exciting times ahead.
I like combining both methods, I do a poolish preferment and then do a cold ferment for the first bread rise. I have found that that gives me the best flavor.
In the winter my room temperature is 8 C over night :-) So I guess that's an advantage for cold fermentation... I find this all fascinating because over the years of dabbling with baking bread I've come to basically the same conclusions. Preferment was fine, but cold ferment always beat it. I could never tell a difference between folding and kneading as long as the ingredients were adequately mixed and I had sufficient folding for the hydration. I just kind of started making bread this way, but was always thinking, "Am I missing something?" Apparently not... The only thing is that a cold ferment, folded bread takes virtually no work on my part. I kind of feel like I haven't made bread. Sometimes I do it the old way because I just want to get in there fling it about or breathlessly watch the damn thing rise :-)
I'm glad the idea of cold fermentation is getting more steam. A year or so ago I couldn't find any information about this method online, even though to me the idea of it seemed feasible, so I ended up experimenting myself, and the results were spectacular. Posted about it on r/Breadit, and I don't think I'll ever get that many upvotes ever again XD
Your videos are addictively good.
I do both. I do an overnight preferment of my wholemeal flour, then make the dough adding the white flour, water, salt etc, and ferment this in the fridge for another night. I don't add any yeast, all the yeast is in the preferment.
This video is exactly why I love your channel! I have been wondering about the demr for a while.
Great video. I've cold fermented for up to 5 days. Now, try bulk fermenting overnight on the counter for 12-24+ hours for even more flavor. Add the rest of the yeast, knead, shape, and rise once when ready to bake. And one final comment, try a video with an overnight countertop bulk ferment, then add a cold tangzhong with the yeast. I use boiling water for the tangzhong, stir, cook in the microwave for 30 seconds, stir again. Let cool, then refrigerate until ready to use. Tight moist crumb that lasts for days.
I'm convinced. I just re-worked two of your bread recipes, your white sandwich loaf and jewish deli rye to use cold fermentation instead of a preferment and they came out wonderful. It was a breeze. What I like most is that the dough is easier to shape coming out of the fridge, though I did flatten it out and let it relax covered on the counter for 15 min first. I think it helps even out the temp before the final proof.
I'm definitely a fan of the way Artisan bread in 5 minutes a day method, which after watching this video has made me realize it is a cold fermentation method.
Thanks for the comparison as it is super informative 👍.
Dude you are the best! Thanks for all your hard work…
Cheers! 😎
I think both of these methods have their place. Sometimes I am short on time but know I will bake the next day. Preferments are useful then. As well as if I am doing two bakes and only have room to cold bulk one.
I mainly use my bread machine nowadays (sorry if that's a sin heh)
Pre-ferment biga was relatively hands-off: just make the biga and after 12 hours plop it with the mixture in the bread machine easy.
Meanwhile, I just tried cold ferment and it took more time and "work" because of the two-times folding (or rather, mixing it a bit in the machine) and having to take it out for final proofing. I did it all without taking it out of the bread machine pan. Ironically more work than pre-ferment haha.
It was denser than straight dough and pre-ferment, but just as tasty as pre-ferment AFAIK. The recipe I usually use is already 70% hydration, but I might try adding more water next time to make it less dense... or perhaps I should've final proofed it for 2 hours instead of 1 hour? I only did one hour since I was worried it would over proof since the baking cycle takes an hour and I'm trying to avoid pre-heating the machine for even less work, hmm. Will probably have to try the full 2 hours final proof, a pre-heated baking machine, and/or more water next time... heck, I can just bake the pan inside a real oven at this point.
With a few experiments you'll find your perfect loaf😎
I've always wondered the reason behind this amd the difference in result. Thank you!
First, Charlie ditches the chain. Now, the preferment is in danger of being left out the cold. This is a day of reckoning.
Well, that's what learning is all about. The explanation makes sense...if a little bit of preferment is good, why not the entire dough? I would also have to do a side by side taste test to see if I could taste the difference. Thanks Charlie. Goodbye little preferment. 🥺
😥 sadness ensues..... I miss the chain already... but I must admit, the ring is pretty cool
same journey for me too, now i no knead, coil fold in a bowl, bowl goes to fridge until time to bake. easy and delicious
Thank you for the video. I'm going to give this a try specially because I'm having issues with preferment/sponge regarding bad odor 20 minutes into the baking time.
Good advice, I think I'll add this in to my repertoire. Thanks!
Been studying your videos for about a week now, learning all I can so I can make the best loaf I possibly can at home. Thank you for the explanations of the scientific side of bread making, it is making this endeavor much easier for me. Subscribed! (wish I'd found you sooner, would have saved me a ton of money)
*Where did you buy those small rectangular (ceramic?) loaf pans used in the video? We are only two, they would be perfect for us.
Also, got to say it. You sound just like Arnold Schwarzenegger. 😎💖
✌️😎
After your first video about cold ferment and my experience living in Daly city just south of San Francisco 50 years ago has made me rethink the way I make bread. And I believe it is much better now. I live in Panama City Panama and it's hot there and I also have just bought an apartment in Pereira Colombia. Pereira is about 24 C in the daytime and about 13°C at night because my elevation is 4800 feet. And I'm saying about Pereira because the strategy for Panama City would not work as well there because it would take a lot more than eight or 10 hours before starting the cold ferment or use more yeast.
So first the strategy for Panama. my Batch is 500 g to 600 grams of flour at 72% hydration 2% salt 1/8 tsp yeast. I generally under mix it in the mixer I may or may not do any stretch and fold over the next eight hours. But at that point I final shape it put it in a linen lined basket maybe let it proof for another two hours on the counter. Then cold ferment until the dough pretty much fills the basket or no more movement. And depending on how exactly the temperature and mixing in the first 8 or 10 hours decides when I bake it but generally 24 hours to 72 hours later. The bread turns out very tasty and it depends but the 72 hour bread is by far the best flavor and the softest.
And I agree for your conclusion here preferments are a waste of time for the home Baker
The recent temperature swings made managing temp really difficult, so I ended up doing my preferment, autolyse and bulk ferment all in an instant pot. I was in a rush one time, so I tried using the sous vide function at 85f/30C for the autolyse and it actually worked pretty well. I think my room temperature is just too low during the day, around 17-18 C.
I look forward to seeing your cold ferment vs room temp ferment video. You pretty much sold me on cold ferment, but clearing space in the fridge will be a little difficult.
I have been baking bread for over a year or two now, I have learned a lot from TH-cam, here is the very brief and precious sum related to this;
If you're preparing bread dough periodically, I can recommend you to divide your final dough to 10 then save the 1/10 for the next dough preparation and bake the rest. And repeat :)
Also another tip; half-bake /partially bake all of your dough, saves so much time instead of shaping and waiting for dough to rise every time. Then pop one into your oven, and there, freshly baked bread in half an hour, every time, no prep no nothing.
(there are 2 best methods for half-bake;
1- Dutch oven style, either with Dutch oven or with an improvised one..
2- Preheat your oven at max temp, then as soon as you put your bread in turn off the oven
*then once they have risen, usually takes 15 min, take out all of them leave the one you want to bake and freeze the rest)
Great video. I totally agree. I only use cold bulk fermentation either with or without a sourdough starter (e.g. pizza with a few grams of yeast and an equal weight of sugar or sourdough starter for no-knead sour dough, both overnight in the fridge). You get much better flavour from fermenting the whole of the dough.
I definitely agree. so much easier in terms of time and flexibility and less washing up too! great content as always.
High quality video ! Highly interesting ! Thank you !
Excellent work. This is something I will definitely try with my pate fermentee for extra flavour.
Great demonstration! I agree with you: if space is not a problem, bulk ferment in cold storage! Why should we ferment a little chunk when the whole dough can be fermented?!! :) Flavor explosion: all aboard!
i'm glued to your channel.
I’ll have to try it and see which taste I prefer
Thanks for the great video! The cold ferment approach for my pizza dough is similar but the other way round: first bulk fermentation (with stretching/folding) at room temp, then overnight in the fridge, next day dividing & shaping the dough in four parts, putting each in a bowl and then again in the fridge to be able to bake one pizza each of the following days. (I keep the bowls for day 3 and 4 in a cooler area of the fridge and (therefore?) cannot detect much of a flavour difference.)
I do both. I always have a piece of paté fermenté in my fridge and use it to make dough for my next loaf which I leave to cold ferment. Then I remove a piece and put it back in the fridge.
Cold bulk. Absolutely. The result is always important, but for the home baker, so is time management. Cold bulk really stands out when considering time management.
I actually use a poolish as a 'yeast starter' and then I do my bulk fermentation at room temperature with no additional yeast. I do my final proofing in the fridge over night so I can bake my bread early in the morning with as little prep time as possible...
Accidentally buying a sack of plain flour instead of bakers flour prefermenting 150gr of flour with 150ml of water overnight still gave a good rise and crumb. I use my cellar at 18C for overnight ferments. The preferment is added to 100gr Rye and 450gr plain and 450ml water. Total 600ml water 100gr Rye 600gr plain. Very tasty bread that is always eaten before going stale.
I like cold fermentation. I usually make dough for 4 servings, it's so convenient to have ready-made dough on hand at any time of day and night. And after a few days of fermentation such dough can also be frozen, if there is no space in fridge. Although when I first started to try this method of fermentation because of the large amount of yeast already after 2 days dough began to smell of alcohol, although this had no effect on the quality of baking(I personally haven't noticed any difference), but the whole fridge had a strong smell of alcohol lol
@@kevinu.k.7042 Hello and thanks for info, when I first tried cold fermentation, many recipes said to leave dough to ferment in the fridge, with no indication of temperature. In my fridge, depending on the shelf and how full it is, temperature ranges from +1 to +8 C
Another Latvian baker! I love it
LOL. Most of my breads include preferments (poolish plus levain) but they also go into the fridge for at least one night after 1-2 hour counter bulk with folds. Per your video I'm working too hard...or hedging my bets. Cold bulk also works great when you want to bake 2-3 loaves over several days.
Cold bulk fermentation myself, it's easy, convenient and as you said if you're busy or forget and leave it an extra day or two the worst that can happen is your bread tastes better.
Hello my Baker! Would you consider biga an exception? As the whole wheat is going through the prefermentation the taste shouldn´t be that much different as it is by the cold bulk, right? Might worth a try!
Thank you for your videos, delicate description of the processes and methods. Watching you made me realize how much there still is to become a real baker like ma grandfather! You´ve been my help to make him proud of me in heavens.
If all the flour of that recipe is in the biga, then yes 👍
I make pizza dough a lot using cold fermentation and just now started to make regular bread. Always wondered why make preferment and what purpose does it serve over cold ferment so video came in just time
Maybe a strange question, but what about using both? Day 1: prep preferment. Day 2: mix and cold bulk ferment main dough. Day 3: bake.
I'd say just ferment the dough for two days instead and save yourself time ✌️
I love these comparisson videos, they are so helpful. Now, I have a recipe request for you: could you please demonstrate how to make a nice bread loaf using Marmite in the ingredients? Thanks!
Perhaps one day. The main suggestion would be to adjust the amount of salt to compensate for the saltiness of marmite.
Impressive comparison - appreciate you making this extremely informative video. I have enough bowls and a second refrigerator in the garage - does that mean I can now "mass produce" bread at home using the cold bulk fermentation process 😉 Okay, maybe I won't do that, but it is nice that you have shown us this revelation!! Thanks again for sharing this video 👍👍
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You're already running a commercial bakery over there 😅 I'll definitely make some more videos using this method in the near future :)
Cheers for the support as ever! 🤩
@@ChainBaker 🤩😉 sometimes it feels as if I am….
Interesting comparison. I keep a sealed lidded jar with preferment sourdough scrapings. Never feed it. When I want to use it I add 50g tap water which has stood for 24hours in a jug to evaporate the chlorine. I shake the bottle with the lid on until the sides are cleared of most of the dough. Then I open the jar and add 50g of flour. Mix, re-lid and mark with elastic on the outside. I leave it for 12 to 18hours till it's doubled and sometimes tripled in size. I like your idea of cold ferment, but I would not know how to use my scrapings doing a cold ferment as it's also salted. I could salt it afterwards, but I find dissolving the salt in the water before mixing the bulk dissolves the salt and disperses it evenly. Also I don't want salt in my preferment scrapings. Not sure if the scrapings starter would survive.
I've been using an overnight method for years, just out of sheer convenience. One more thing I've done is to leave the salt out of the initial mixing, essentially allowing an overnight autolyse, and adding the salt the next day. But...this does require a good kneading when bringing the dough out of the fridge and adding the salt, to ensure good mixing.
Какой Вкусный хлебушек ! такой пышный ! 👍👍👍 What a Delicious Bread! so lush! 👍👍👍
thank you, was great info and video , you are sure a master breadmaker
I used no-knead bulk cold fermentation when i first tried bread baking. Then i learnt your yudane method and fell deeply in love. Cold bulk ferment is easy and fool proof but bread gets dry after a couple days (despite using high hydration). Yudane guarantees soft bread and lasts even up to 5 days. Possible to combine the two technique i suppose?
Definitely! I am working on such a recipe right now 😉
I accidently found out that cold bulk ferment produces far better flavor. I made dough for pizzas and had a lot left over so I put it in the fridge. After three days I made bread with it to take over to my brothers house. Him and his wife could not believe how good it tasted and have been after me to make more.
Can you make comparison video between cold bulk fermentation and cold final proof fermentation 😊
For baguette I use polish and cold bulk fermentation, for sourdough bread I used room temperature bulk fermentation and final proof cold fermentation, for brioche I use cold bulk fermentation because it is easier to work with reach dough. For croissants I use 1 hour room temperature bulk fermentation and overnight cold bulk fermentation and usually I add leftovers from my previous batch.
It's on my list 😉
Hey Charlie! Great video again! I was wondering if you could show us some recipes with other types of soft wheats such as spelt, emmer or einkorn. Where I am from spelt bread is quite common, but where I live I have a hard time finding good bread at all, so I just make all of it at home. My one worry about other soft wheats is their gluten content and I am not sure if some supplementation with vital wheat gluten would be recommended. Love your rye recipes btw! Keep up the good work!
I will definitely make some videos on those in the future :)
Here are two spelt recipes for now.
1) th-cam.com/video/lVW1yGCpWGU/w-d-xo.html
2) th-cam.com/video/RAGF6vyZwQ0/w-d-xo.html
I have gotten into the habit of saving a portion of my fermented bread dough to add to my next loaf of bread dough. No extra work involved, I just store it in an airtight container in the fridge until I make my next loaf. I love the result it has on the crust and crumb. I love the cold ferment idea though. I will definitely try it for convenience. I believe bread making is a journey and I am always eager to try new things.
Did you reduce the yeast content for cold fermentation? Thanks in advance. 🙏🏻 Another great video.
It’s ok, I just watched again and saw that it’s the same amount of yeast. 😊
I just made your pepperoni pizza rolls that use the pre-ferment, I'll try cold ferment for the next batch
I make up to 9kg of dough at a time (I sell to my friends and neighbors) so I mix with a machine. Then I throw my dough into the fridge and cold ferment for 16 hours. The next morning I pull the dough out, shape and proof for 2 hours. I make 500g loafs, which I can only fit 3 into my oven at a time. So I shape 3 loafs every 35-40 minutes (since I bake my loafs for 40 minutes) to make an assembly line like process. As soon as 3 loafs are baked, another 3 go in. The cold fermenting method makes it easier for me and allows me to have time to do what I want. Rather than wake up super early in the morning to knead, bulk ferment, ect. I can wake up whenever I want and start portioning, shaping, proofing, baking.
Hi, I’ve tried your cold bulk fermentation method to make bagels and I’ve really enjoyed it. 😊 But I was wondering if it’s okay to divide the dough into few balls right before cold bulk fermentation for time saving. Do you think it works fine or the yeast may not evenly distribute by then? Thank you
I've never tried it, but it sounds like it could work. There's only one way to find out!
Okay, so I do a pre-ferment & a bulk cold ferment. It takes me 2 to 3 days to make a loaf of bread. That's how long it takes me to consume one also. In your new method without the preferment, when are you adding any fats, like butter? I learned from you to add it last, just before final rise and it has made all the difference in the world.
It depends on whether the dough is kneaded or not. And it depends on the fat being used. Oil will be added from the beginning. Butter can be kneaded in at a later stage or it can be added into the mix from the beginning depending on the recipe.
Great video as usual! Love your dedication to always learning and improving and simplifying bread baking. I was wondering if the cold fermentation would work in the same manner with a seeded bread? Also, are you still going for a doubling in size for the final proof? Thanks for your reply on n advance. 😊👍
It works the same way with any bread. Here is one example th-cam.com/video/zbfgAwGzEz0/w-d-xo.html
And here another th-cam.com/video/qlsj49gPdEg/w-d-xo.html ✌️
@@ChainBaker , You're the best! Thank you for taking the time to reply. Happy ( Baking) New Year to you and your family! 😊
😉
Outstanding video as always. You're video skills and how tight your productions are, are only matched by how tight you can shape bread! I love your channel. What would be a difference in flavor if you bulk ferment at room temp and final proof overnight in fridge?
Flavour of bulk fermentation at room temperature will have sour taste, more time more sour
That is an interesting question. I have always read and learned that most flavour is developed during bulk fermentation. Final proof is mainly for volume. But now that we extend the final proof, it may just develop flavour the same way as a long bulk fermentation. I guess it's another experiment to add to my list! 😄
...I thought I was the only one who said this. My cold ferments come out fantastic and it's easier! Mix, let it rise, put it in the fridge for a few days....incredible results.
Good job, all said.
I just make it depending on taste; different bread, different method.
BTW: New baking pans... which brand and how are you satisfied?
These are pretty old actually. But they have held up great! Good Housekeeping 1lb.
I got some Pullman tins from USA Pans. They are anodized aluminium and they have been performing amazingly. I am currently filming a recipe using one.
Great informative video on this subject! Been wondering about all these topics for some time (no-knead vs knead, rokm temp preferment vs cold-ferment of the whole thing). Question: If the whole-batch dough is cold-fermented, then does the mix temp really matter?
Certainly. Final dough temperature must still be controlled to prevent the dough from over fermenting in the fridge. Here is a full cold fermentation guide - th-cam.com/video/x-8UoEgtt48/w-d-xo.html
Cold fermented, rye sourdough. I am adding a bit of the vital gluten to let it form nice round loaf.
Hey Charlie, great video as always! You should do a similar comparison with RT fermentation vs long fermentation in the fridge. My experience is that one hour at RT is comparable to 3-4 hours in the fridge (taste wise), so you could do for example 24h cold vs 8h RT. I think you'll be surprised with the results :) I shifted from cold fermentation to shorter RT fermentation and never looked back
Edit:
Ok just rewatched and you literally said that's on your list 😂 must have missed it on the first watch
@Tatyana Moskvitina - It is late at night for me but I have to ask for the long form of RT. For the life of me I can't figure it out right now, probably because I'm so sleepy. Thx.
@@sheilam4964 Room Temperature :)
@@Blaz000r - thx. I new it would be simple but for the life of me I couldn't get it. Have a great day.
Great video!
I've been questioning the advantages of preferments ever since I've seen your amazing video about cold bulk fermentation. I'm using the latter method almost exclusively now (around 0.7% yeast for 12 hours at 5° ) and I've come to the same conclusion: for the home baker there are very few reasons for using preferments.
My only reason was sometimes not having time to knead in the evening - so I used a preferment. I'm really looking forward to your no-knead video, this will solve my problem.
I have a cellar with a constant temperature of 15° and I'm thinking about "cold-ish" bulk fermenting in there with a reduced amount of yeast, what do you think? Any thoughts about the yeast percentage?
I usually go for around 1% at 5C - 6C. So, at that temperature you should at least halve it. Make a couple of batches of dough with different percentages and see which one turns out best ✌
Hi! Congrats for your wonderful videos! As an aficionado of italian pizza, in your opinion why are doughs made with preferments (biga and poolish) so trendy? Do preferments really give more smoothness and more fermentative force than cold fermentation?
I reckon it is because professional bakers use those methods. Like I have show before all preferments can make the bread taste exactly the same in the end. Bulk fermentation develops a lot more flavour than any preferment ever could. But at the end of the day it is up to each of us to decide what is good. Screw the trends. Just bake your own way.
How would this best be applied to the sourdough world? feed and get an active starter, mix up a batch of dough and then go straight into the fridge? Or would you do some stretch and folds and keep it at room temp for a while first? Thanks for the great video!
I'd leave it out for an hour or so before chilling or it may take too long to rise. Personally, I prefer final proof in the fridge when it comes to sourdough.
I agree that cold fermenting is probably preferable; but unlike you, my fridge is always full. I have to do major juggling to make room for dough. This is a great video, though.
Fantastic; but I wish you also added a third comparison to using both at the same time (preferment + cold bulk ferment)
To me it would make more sense to just ferment the whole dough for two days then.
@@ChainBaker Are you implying that a preferment would add no value to a cold long fermented dough?
Idk if that's what you truly mean, because you said yourself in a past video that that's a method you would try (to combine a preferment with a long cold bulk ferment). Maybe you tested it in another video and I missed it?
Thanks for your input.
I can't recall saying that. To me it makes no sense to do that. If I can simply ferment the dough for two days instead of messing around with a preferment, then that is what I would do. I can't imagine how making a preferment and then doing a cold ferment would be better than just leaving the whole dough for longer. What do you reckon?
I have only done it with naturally leavened bread because when you use a starter you have no choice but to use a preferment 😅
@@ChainBaker Here's the video I was referring to at 9:14: th-cam.com/video/x-8UoEgtt48/w-d-xo.html
I don't know the answer to that question, maybe you are right.
The reason I think it's not exactly the same thing is because:
1) Preferment hydration is very different. Some people say biga and poolish affect their doughs in different ways (e.g texture vs flavor). So preferment hydration might have an effect on the final dough that we don't understand.
2) Preferments spend most time at room temperature, where cold bulk is mostly in the fridge. Maybe temperature has another effect on the dough than simply duration of fermentation.
I'd say the only way the result would be no different is if the hydration is the same and the bulk fermentation is done at room temp, otherwise it's hard to be certain.
I've been meaning to test it myself, that's why I was hoping you just did it first : ) Thanks for your experiments though, super helpful. Your videos saved me a lot of time because you already did most of the experiments I wanted to do.
Yeah because other people told me not because I thought it could be a good way 😁
Check out this video in which I compared all the yeasted preferments and found that (at least to me) they all made pretty much identical bread - th-cam.com/video/MDThMkbrA1U/w-d-xo.html
Give it a try and see for yourself ✌️😎
But I may just make a video about that method in the future too.
How about making preferment using yogurt? Would that make any difference?
That could bring a bit more acidity to the dough, but that's about it. I will soon publish a video in which I will compare various milk products.
I would like a video where you create the greatest and tastiest loaf that you can, using any and all ingredients and methods. : )
egg, milk, yudane, cold ferment, sourdough, whole grain, hydration, scoring it in a certain pattern, anything really.
I would love to practice the same bread/video many times until I master it, and I sometimes get lost in all the options!
There is no such thing as the greatest and tastiest loaf. They're all great and tasty. It just depends on the setting, mood, occasion, hunger, personal taste, etc. I could not even start to think about the possibility of such a loaf ;D
The best thing about breadmaking is that no matter how well your bread turned out, you will always find a way to improve it next time.
Pick the methods that suit the result you are looking for, use them in your recipe and work from there. The process itself makes for a great experience :)
@@ChainBaker That was a very thoughtful and helpful advice, thank you very much. I completely agree that the process is the best part.
Since I live with roommates, I have to do preferments over night for my bread baking most of the time.
On a side note, what would your opinion be if you were to do a preferment for 8-10 hours, mix your dough together and the proceed with bulk/final proof cold fermentation for 12-24 hours. Would the results produce a better flavor and texture? Perhaps would the gluten be too weak at that point due to the preferment going past it's prime? Curious of your thought on this.
I would just ferment the whole dough for longer instead of making a preferment and then cold fermenting.
Excellent video.
But, for cold bulk fermentation shouldn't you reduce the yeast amount? Or it doesn't make a difference for a 12hs fermentation...
1% is perfect for up to 2 days of fermentation.
Perfectttt ♥️♥️
I have question please , do you think if i replace egg in pastry by vinegar and baking soda, does it make any sense for you ?
Since we here in Egypt eggs became far expensive..
I will try and tell or you just make us video 🤗🤗
For pastry you can either use baking powder OR (mild) vinegar & baking soda to inflate the dough. Vinegar can be replaced by other acid liquids such as buttermilk, yoghurt and lemon juice. To replace 1 egg you can use 3 tablespoons of aquafaba. Aquafaba is the liquid leftover from (canned, bottled or freshly cooked) chickpeas, therefore extremely cheap - and surprisingly does not add a strange taste to the dough. The result of mixing aquafaba liquid on its own is similar to mixed egg white.
Good luck with your baking!
I have not tried such a method. To be fair I'm not much of a pastry chef. It works quite differently for breadmaking. Pr G. left some great tips below though 😉
I usually prefer preferment because I can get it done with 12h overnight fermenting, while in the fridge I can hardly get enough fermentation in 12h. I don't know if my refrigerator is too much cold, but I always mess with my schedule when doing cold long fermentation.
What do you think about using both preferment and cold bulk fermentation? Is it too much? Does it make any difference, anyway?
Just use more yeast in that case.
I think simply fermenting the whole dough for longer cuts out the need for a preferment. If you want more flavour just leave it in the fridge for another 12h ;)
I have learned so much about bread baking from you. I keep my refrigerator at 38*F because I live alone and it keeps things like milk longer. Will I still be able to do a cold fermentation? Right now as we speak I am making a whole wheat with the preferment that sat at room temperature all night.
Definitely. You just have to play around with the amount of yeast. Here is my cold fermentation guide - th-cam.com/video/x-8UoEgtt48/w-d-xo.html
@@ChainBaker
Thankyou that was very informative.
I guess I need to try cold fermentation again. I didn’t see any benefits to it, but I only tried once. I’m so used to doing preferment and I feel like it saves me time too haha
Cold Ferment looks nice, however, as a rye baker I have to wonder whether it would be worthwhile for me. If I were to make a scald that would need ~12 hours before going into the dough, so for cold ferment that would be 3 times I need to work on the loaf, where as for preferment I make that at the same time as the scald. Then there is autolyse of the wheat flour separate to the rye.
Any thoughts on how that might all work out?
Make the scald at the same time you make the dough and then combine them after 12h. Do the autolyse just before mixing everything.