Yeah it seems if it doubt add stack, make the base wider and make the foam softer and perhaps add an X. That said where is the Adios 9. That was seemingly going back the other way and the Streakfly 2 should at least not be "max stack". Otherwise the term super shoe seems now a bit passe with even say "ZoomX" and "Lightstrike Pro" having variants that aren't super in being the very best the company can offer. Another notable takeaway for me (albeit a bit subtle) was Hoka adding some higher than 5mm drop shoes to their range like did I hear 8mm in the next Clifton. Considering that is often cited as a reason Nike are going "wrong" is it also true that nobody wants 5mm and is that attempt to actually broaden their appeal.
There are definitely some exciting lower stack shoes coming out in 2025… but they aren’t the story brands want to tell. I saw Hoka adding higher drops… I didn’t expect that one. I do like a 6-8mm drop…. But have no issue with 10mm.
The Hoka drop change was surprising to me, barely any consumers are aware of drop. I know a number of people I run with in a local group that both run in the Arahi with no understanding that it’s a stability shoe and in Brooks with no understanding of drop. It’s only over the past few years that the technical specs of a running shoe have become more apparent to general consumers. The change by Hoka is super odd. Especially with them widening the toe box on the shoe, making it more anatomical, which would normally suggest they are leaning towards a more natural style of shoe, which moving to an 8mm drop seems to be at odds with 🤷
Being a forefoot striker I find drop not that important. Being mostly a trailrunner I find drop even more unimportant. During my last trailrace I had to use my hands to climb .. . 0mm drop to 12 mm drop would have made no difference.
I believe Incredirun (seriously, the worst name ever) is something a bit more than just a standard TPEE… they are being VERY tight lipped about what it actually is.
Surprised Nike didn't tease or showcase the Streakfly 2? Looking forward to Saucony again next year. Solid updates for the better on the Speed 5 and Triumph 23 and of course the Elite 2. Enjoying my CX1 so let's see if CX1 2.0 is even better
With the Saucony Kinvara Pro 2, sorry…. Endorphin Trainer… the ES5 may be over looked. I am much more interested in the ES5 though… I might even try the new Kinvara. We shall see.
More foam, huh? Oh, goodie. It'll be interesting to see how creative brands get solving the more stack vs less weight trade-off, the upper can only get you so far. Guess I'll have to keep an eye on Nike and Adidas, though the Rise 2 is keeping the same stack height and decreasing the weight with a lighter upper, what's a plus in my book. Watched a couple of videos on the Peg Premium and it's 345 g on my US 10.5!😲 Thomas (BITR) didn't find it that heavy, possibly due to the full-length air zoom unit (that recovers 90% of the energy according to Nike); then again, Nick (Run Testers) did feel the weight. Both made a good point that it might sell well as a lifestyle shoe.
Nick's marathon time is more than 1 hour faster than Thomas' so what Nick calls heavy might be not so heavy for Thomas ... but anyway, I'll probably buy a Peg Premium as soon as I find a discount and I'd say it won't take long ...
I wonder if the weight savings story could be related to the stack height story if the foams foams foams are generally lower density. Reduced density could mean they need more volume to prevent that bottoming out feeling.
One question: doctors of running (Matt specifically) has a review of a Chinese shoe (361 Miro) which he said (and I’m paraphrasing) that the shoe said it reminded him of racing flats but with more cushion. Given that companies are talking about weight saving materials, construction, etc., how fast would you anticipate that shoes of this weight (still with carbon plate and super foam technology) would become more mainstream or would that have to be in balance with durability?
We will see super shoes around the 115-140g range when the next gen foams start to appear, within the next 2-3 years. As I’ve said, and made videos on, weight is the next battle ground for super shoes. The Evo 1 was just the start. All of the Chinese brand seemed hyper focused on the 100g mark. 361 was one of the first to get there but they are all there now. This is one big reason why I’ve been saying we will see super shoes for elites, Elite tiers to the top lines from Nike, Addias and Asics. This will allow them to make shoes for Elite performance that have ultra lightweights…. Where durability doesn’t matter. As long as it last for a full race… that’s enough. Durability won’t be a concern for these shoes. Not like a true consumer model.
It seems like every brand is increasing stack, except Saucony who chose to keep the stacks the same height. It seems they're more enthusiastic about the incredirun foam than anything else. Are they lagging behind the trend or are they up to something?
Foam foam foam… Saucony has some major headwinds in the next few years due to their parent company and a very bloated and overlapping product lineup… I talked about it in my “history of the endorphin series” video.
@@SagasuRunning I did see your video on it, which partially motivated me asking. It does seem like they're riding a lot on their new foam but I think you're right on their problems associated with wolverine.
@destrucciondeldiablo Theybhave too many products and “innovations” right now. My guess is most of it was in progress by the time WWW started cost cutting and reorganization… I doubt there are such budgets behind this wave of products… so yes… a lot riding on the new foam. PWRRUN PB is about milked dry, they seem to have given up on PWRRUN HG, which I thought was quite good… so they need Incredirun to be a hit…
@@SagasuRunning I also liked pwrrn hg quite a bit. It'd be a shame if they have truly given up on it, a kinvara-like shoe (regular, not the pro) with hg foam was something I'd been hoping for. I am gonna give the elite 2 a try, so we'll see how that goes next year.
The topic I heard talk of is the promised Trump tariffs increasing the price of a now $150 shoe to $187.50 and or +25%. If it really happens it will shift & shape product strategy for the U.S.
I had a long section on that, that I cut out. Yes, On the industry side everyone is worried about tariffs. Small and boutique brands could be out of business overnight… a lot of worry in the industry right now. Pricing was also another topic under discussion. Related to tariffs and inflation.
The US has had tariffs on China since 2018. If the US does increase those tariffs then China also has the ability to devalue their currency the Yuan. There are many moving parts whenever tariffs are put into place.
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Yeah it seems if it doubt add stack, make the base wider and make the foam softer and perhaps add an X. That said where is the Adios 9. That was seemingly going back the other way and the Streakfly 2 should at least not be "max stack". Otherwise the term super shoe seems now a bit passe with even say "ZoomX" and "Lightstrike Pro" having variants that aren't super in being the very best the company can offer. Another notable takeaway for me (albeit a bit subtle) was Hoka adding some higher than 5mm drop shoes to their range like did I hear 8mm in the next Clifton. Considering that is often cited as a reason Nike are going "wrong" is it also true that nobody wants 5mm and is that attempt to actually broaden their appeal.
There are definitely some exciting lower stack shoes coming out in 2025… but they aren’t the story brands want to tell.
I saw Hoka adding higher drops… I didn’t expect that one.
I do like a 6-8mm drop…. But have no issue with 10mm.
The Hoka drop change was surprising to me, barely any consumers are aware of drop. I know a number of people I run with in a local group that both run in the Arahi with no understanding that it’s a stability shoe and in Brooks with no understanding of drop.
It’s only over the past few years that the technical specs of a running shoe have become more apparent to general consumers.
The change by Hoka is super odd. Especially with them widening the toe box on the shoe, making it more anatomical, which would normally suggest they are leaning towards a more natural style of shoe, which moving to an 8mm drop seems to be at odds with 🤷
Being a forefoot striker I find drop not that important. Being mostly a trailrunner I find drop even more unimportant. During my last trailrace I had to use my hands to climb .. . 0mm drop to 12 mm drop would have made no difference.
Spot on about Alex the guy is flying so much he is likely chronologically a week younger then his birthday states by now 🙂
Speaking of Saucony Endorphin, interesting the top shoe foam going from Peba to a TPEE formula they discovered.
I believe Incredirun (seriously, the worst name ever) is something a bit more than just a standard TPEE… they are being VERY tight lipped about what it actually is.
@@SagasuRunning Indeed. To me this was the most interesting (and under-discussed) thing I heard coming out of TRE.
I’m curious what real world performance will be. The shoes seems fun and Saucony testers responded to it… but beyond that the jury is out.
Surprised Nike didn't tease or showcase the Streakfly 2?
Looking forward to Saucony again next year. Solid updates for the better on the Speed 5 and Triumph 23 and of course the Elite 2.
Enjoying my CX1 so let's see if CX1 2.0 is even better
The Saucony Endorphin Speed 5 looks like a good update. I believe the stack stays the same.
With the Saucony Kinvara Pro 2, sorry…. Endorphin Trainer… the ES5 may be over looked. I am much more interested in the ES5 though… I might even try the new Kinvara. We shall see.
More foam, huh? Oh, goodie. It'll be interesting to see how creative brands get solving the more stack vs less weight trade-off, the upper can only get you so far. Guess I'll have to keep an eye on Nike and Adidas, though the Rise 2 is keeping the same stack height and decreasing the weight with a lighter upper, what's a plus in my book. Watched a couple of videos on the Peg Premium and it's 345 g on my US 10.5!😲 Thomas (BITR) didn't find it that heavy, possibly due to the full-length air zoom unit (that recovers 90% of the energy according to Nike); then again, Nick (Run Testers) did feel the weight. Both made a good point that it might sell well as a lifestyle shoe.
Nick's marathon time is more than 1 hour faster than Thomas' so what Nick calls heavy might be not so heavy for Thomas ... but anyway, I'll probably buy a Peg Premium as soon as I find a discount and I'd say it won't take long ...
I wonder if the weight savings story could be related to the stack height story if the foams foams foams are generally lower density. Reduced density could mean they need more volume to prevent that bottoming out feeling.
Yup…. That was a big weight savings aspect many presented. More airy foams.
One question: doctors of running (Matt specifically) has a review of a Chinese shoe (361 Miro) which he said (and I’m paraphrasing) that the shoe said it reminded him of racing flats but with more cushion. Given that companies are talking about weight saving materials, construction, etc., how fast would you anticipate that shoes of this weight (still with carbon plate and super foam technology) would become more mainstream or would that have to be in balance with durability?
We will see super shoes around the 115-140g range when the next gen foams start to appear, within the next 2-3 years. As I’ve said, and made videos on, weight is the next battle ground for super shoes. The Evo 1 was just the start.
All of the Chinese brand seemed hyper focused on the 100g mark. 361 was one of the first to get there but they are all there now.
This is one big reason why I’ve been saying we will see super shoes for elites, Elite tiers to the top lines from Nike, Addias and Asics. This will allow them to make shoes for Elite performance that have ultra lightweights…. Where durability doesn’t matter. As long as it last for a full race… that’s enough. Durability won’t be a concern for these shoes. Not like a true consumer model.
It seems like every brand is increasing stack, except Saucony who chose to keep the stacks the same height. It seems they're more enthusiastic about the incredirun foam than anything else. Are they lagging behind the trend or are they up to something?
Foam foam foam…
Saucony has some major headwinds in the next few years due to their parent company and a very bloated and overlapping product lineup… I talked about it in my “history of the endorphin series” video.
@@SagasuRunning I did see your video on it, which partially motivated me asking. It does seem like they're riding a lot on their new foam but I think you're right on their problems associated with wolverine.
@destrucciondeldiablo Theybhave too many products and “innovations” right now. My guess is most of it was in progress by the time WWW started cost cutting and reorganization… I doubt there are such budgets behind this wave of products… so yes… a lot riding on the new foam. PWRRUN PB is about milked dry, they seem to have given up on PWRRUN HG, which I thought was quite good… so they need Incredirun to be a hit…
@@SagasuRunning I also liked pwrrn hg quite a bit. It'd be a shame if they have truly given up on it, a kinvara-like shoe (regular, not the pro) with hg foam was something I'd been hoping for. I am gonna give the elite 2 a try, so we'll see how that goes next year.
The topic I heard talk of is the promised Trump tariffs increasing the price of a now $150 shoe to $187.50 and or +25%. If it really happens it will shift & shape product strategy for the U.S.
I had a long section on that, that I cut out. Yes, On the industry side everyone is worried about tariffs. Small and boutique brands could be out of business overnight… a lot of worry in the industry right now.
Pricing was also another topic under discussion. Related to tariffs and inflation.
The US has had tariffs on China since 2018. If the US does increase those tariffs then China also has the ability to devalue their currency the Yuan. There are many moving parts whenever tariffs are put into place.