Blanding on the Shoulders of Giants
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Homage and reference can be fun, but they're not enough to prop up a game if the writing isn't there. I take a look at a couple of recent indie RPGs, their respective approaches to storytelling, and why "Love Letters" just aren't for me.
00:00 Introduction
02:55 I. Chained Echoes
05:39 References
16:20 George's Rule
21:12 The Writing
21:29 Info Dumping
24:30 Handholding
25:33 Rumors
26:10 Character Issues
30:11 The Dialogue
30:29 The Humor
31:11 Basic Errors
32:26 What happened?
37:16 II. Sea of Stars
38:39 Music's Role
40:49 The Writing (Again)
41:24 Tone
45:34 Pacing Issues
48:10 Worldbuilding
48:33 Teaks
49:55 Fade-ins
52:20 The Characters
55:14 Valere & Zale
57:34 Seraï
58:01 Resh'an
1:00:15 B'st
1:01:00 Garl
1:05:51 Erlina & Brugaves
1:11:36 Prophecy
1:15:29 Continuity
1:16:59 What's the point?
1:18:40 III. Conclusion
1:19:58 How to Improve
1:25:06 In Closing
CREDITS
VIDEOS
・ "Three Decades of Akira Slide Homages" - Posted by Badspler ( • Three Decades of Akira... )
・ "Hi-Fi Rush Disc 2 (Xenogears reference)" - Posted by KeroKaminaX ( • Hi-Fi Rush Disc 2 (Xen... )
・ "Toby Fox Camp Fangamer Interview (Part 2)" - Posted by Pixelated Noose ( • Toby Fox Camp Fangamer... )
・ Tekken 8 footage taken from official trailer
・ All other game footage captured locally
ONLINE SOURCES
・ Steam Revenue Calculator (steam-revenue-calculator.com/)
・ Sea of Stars Kickstarter (www.kickstarter.com/projects/...)
・ Chained Echoes Kickstarter (www.kickstarter.com/projects/...)
・ "Matthias Linda's seven year quest to make retro JRPG Chained Echoes" by Alan Wen (www.gamedeveloper.com/product...)
・ "'Chained Echoes' is a Childhood Dream Come True for Solo Developer Matthias Linda" by Dale Bashir (sea.ign.com/indie-games/19302...)
・ "An Interview with ‘Chained Echoes’ Developer Matthias Linda" by Shaun Musgrave (toucharcade.com/2022/10/21/an...)
・ "Chained Echoes Interview: Creator Matthias Linda Talks JRPG Influences, Deck13 Backing, Music, & More" by Evan Norris (www.vgchartz.com/article/4551...)
・ "I'm Matthias Linda, developer of Chained Echoes, an upcoming turn-based pixel art RPG filled with mechs and airships. AMA! " ( / im_matthias_linda_deve... )
・ "Chained Echoes AMA-time! Developer, publisher and composer answering your questions!" ( / chained_echoes_amatime... )
・ "Retro role-playing video games are all the rage - here's why" by George Yang (www.npr.org/2023/11/30/121587...)
PRINT
・ "Understanding Comics" pp.169-171 - Scott McCloud (scottmccloud.com/2-print/1-uc...)
SPECIAL THANKS
・ Eddie Marianukroh (esoundsignal.bandcamp.com/)
MUSIC
・ TrackTribe (tracktribealbums.bandcamp.com...)
Tracks used:
- Members Only
- Home for the Holidays
- Island Lover
- Wonder Why
- A Brand New House - เกม
This video showed up randomly in my recommended, and what a gem I found! I really appreciate how thoughtfully you critiqued both of these games while being understanding and sympathetic about the reasons some of these problems may exist. This was an excellent video top to bottom, thanks for sharing!
God damn, is it good to see deep dive longform oldschool YT content again.
Subscribed
Back at the start of this wave of retro-inspired revivals, I was pretty excited as I believed many older games had positive qualities that shouldn't be lost to time, aspects that didn't deserve to die under the label of "outdated". Some early successes made me feel hopeful that new, interesting experiences could be created by building on those forgotten design sensibilities. But seemingly time and time again every project of this nature either missed the mark entirely (too many to list) or played it so safe that it's fine enough to play once but doesn't stand out against what it is trying to replicate at all (ie. Bloodstained). Eventually it reached the point where seeing yet another classic-inspired game announced I'd have absolutely no expectation of it even being good, let alone surpassing what came before it.
I had always rooted for any studio willing to try something outside the mainstream because they were passionate about making that thing specifically. So when I saw these early attempts at retro-inspired projects that were clearly missing important ingredients, the kind of pain it made me feel was like when you watch a kid who is about to ram their bicycle into a tree, you know someone is about to get hurt and you can't do anything to stop them. It was painful watching them pour their heart and soul into something knowing they'd fail anyway. I felt like even if they were flawed I should support them because doing good work takes time and nobody gets it right straight away. In hindsight I had deluded myself into thinking they were also aware of these shortcomings and would see them as things to be fixed on their next go around. But then something changed, despite the writing being as bad as ever some of these games started to succeed, bringing us to where we are today, Sea of Stars winning multiple GOTYs by being pretty and doubling down on all the worst parts of their previous work.
While I still acknowledge these are works of passion, it became clear to me that so many of these projects were primarily the nostalgic passions of people who time and time again demonstrated they don't have anything interesting to say and little to share beyond their childhood love of videogames. You'd read the developer interview for the next project of this nature and it'd read almost exactly the same as the last one. The 'retro-inspired videogame' had seemingly become the place where all the developers without a single novel idea to their name came together to blur the line between homage and plagiarism. Not I feel there are far more worthwhile creative endeavours I could be supporting.
A couple days ago I was reading a interview about an upcoming indie game primarily inspired by a title that is quite dear to me, but the aspects they chose to talk about and the aspects that didn't even get mentioned, it all kept reminding me of this video. Every paragraph I read just inflicted more psychological damage. It feels like so much of the indie space is just people who have this overflowing love for videogames (usually because videogames are their entire life) taking the "natural next step" which isn't of course getting a broader perspective, having something unique to bring to the table, something thought-provoking to say, but instead to dive in headfirst and cram all that love and nostalgia into a videogame-shaped package.
And this isn't liable to stop anytime soon given that games like homeopathic Chrono Trigger sell well and win awards.
I remember hearing about how amazing Sea of Stars was, especially in the writing department.
So, when I started the game and was introduced to Garl's singular dimension of "No Flaws Friendly Man" I was just counting the minutes until he either died to give us motivation or turned evil to reveal hidden layers to his character.
Then he just... Never evolved...
It was honestly a unique experience to see a character that seemed purpose designed to only have 5 minutes of screen time, become (and stay) a main character.
Is the equivalent of going to a sit-down restaurant and seeing Skittles on the menu... And it's just literally Skittles.
There's nothing wrong with that; everything in its place.... but I'm not sure what it's doing here.
- -
Honestly, the writing just felt like if you combined the stale, played out humor of Phase-4 Marvel and combined it with the terrible anime fan fiction I wrote back in high-school...
Seeing it in the Game of the Year Awards has the same vibe as looking at that one token minority front and center on BYU brochure.
I mean, did it occur that maybe others simply found more to enjoy with its narrative than you did? I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so dismissive towards something just because it won awards despite not appealing to your tastes specifically,
@@gavo7911 You don't need to be so defensive. If you like flat and basic characters, more power to you, but surtech has a point.
Garl is so uninteresting. He's a bland happy man and nothing he does or sees has any affect on him. He loses his eye protecting his friend, and he's exactly the same when you meet him next years later. He gets possessed by a curse that almost walks him to his death, and he's the same as he always was after. He sees the giant monster he's always wanted to see in person for the first time, and barely reacts.
And the thing is, all the characters are like this to some extent. Garl is just the worst example.
"Garl is why Larry David throttled Elmo" had me hacking up spit from the back of my throat.
I think Garl is the world's best boy the goodest cinammon roll everyone loves for the very simple reason - so we'd be extra sad when he died, and would be extra motivated to do the true ending. Like it seems they just didn't know how else to make a truly likeable character, but to make everyone like them.
There is a character in Oz series, Shaggy Man, who possessed a Love Magnet, an item which made everyone treat him like Garl. He spent half of the book trying to get rid of it (in a way it won't be found by another poor sap who'd have to deal with it)
The way you read that last line in the "rumors" section reminded me of Mark Hamill reciting that Star Wars line that he'll never forget even though it didn't make it into the movie.
Solid critique. This clearly shows how much effort was put into fleshing out your thoughts.
thanks B!!!
Fantastic analysis/critique, writing, sense of humor, and grasp of storytelling/characterization. Was a great listen.
really appreciate mentioning Scott McCloud's six steps. Something I think about every day I work on games. "Why am I doing this?"
You have such a unique and candid analytical voice that, while I'm excited I get to experience the (relatively) early days of your foray into this style of videos, it almost hurts to find out that I can't go through your channel and find 10 other videos of similar subject matter to binge... yet. This is the sort of stuff I turn the bell on for. Do you have a discord? I'd love to reach out and just chat games with you and others :)
Thank you, that's great to hear! More videos are on the way, but it takes me one thousand years to write and produce just one.
My pal and I have a discord for our podcast No More Whoppers, which houses nerds of all stripes: discord.gg/9yKjYPZkjG
Well considered arguments, very caringly presented. I've felt this way about a lot of film and TV writing, and some literature. My faith was renewed seeing a couple of really good films recently, but I'd wondered if the thread had been cut and we lost some fundamental understanding of storytelling. There has also been a tendency lately in popular media to just reference most of the time, and that feels like a placeholder to me. A subtle nod now and then can be great, but it feels like a lack of confidence in one's own world and squandered potential inherent in art. I haven't played most of the games you reference (beyond a demo or some of the older ones on the list), but I think I understand where you're coming from. I hope devs manage to grow from what lessons they've learned and really take things forward; given that these were independent projects they have that opportunity more than a risk-averse giant
Man, this is a great video, perfect way of putting into words what I felt playing both games basically back to back. Your channel deserves much, much love! Subbed on the spot!
Long time NMW fan, this is a great first(?) video essay and I can't wait to see more if you have it coming down the pike.
This is an excellent video, I'm glad I watched it. I've been unable to describe why these retro styled RPGs have turned me off, causing me to not ever play them, and this video helped me codify why that is. You can do something new, guys! We'll catch the Chrono Trigger nods, you don't have to make them explicit and hammer us over the head with them! I also avoided Tunic because it came off that way to me too, but hearing that it does more than just be "furry Zelda," I'll give it a shot. Thanks, Alex!
I like the cut of this guy's jib.
I SURE HOPE HE DOESN'T TURN OUT TO BE THE UNIBOMBER OR SOMETHING.
chained echoes was far better than sea of stars all i really gotta say great video and i kiss the top of your head sir
What is this, Jump Button Reviews?
I'm just teasing, I couldn't resist the obvious joke given the subject matter. This is good content and you seem like a great person.
19 minutes in and yeah, I'm glad I hadn't played many of the games referenced in Chained Echoes yet (I never had a PS1 or 2). I recognized certain things like the parallels to Chrono Trigger, but a lot of the rest went over my head. Gameplay-wise though, I constantly felt like I was playing a 2D turnbased version of Xenoblade Chronicles. The exploration with its sprawling fields, collectible glowing orbs and mineral deposits for crafting feels exactly like XC1 or 2's open fields, complete with OP boss monsters. The robots immediately had me thinking of Xenoblade Chronicles X's Skells. And the way character building works, as well as how character roles work (every character has a general archetype, then you can choose to focus on certain aspects of it). I love Xenoblade Chronicles 1's gameplay, so I was all in when I played Chained Echoes, but I definitely see the issue.
As an avid Pokemon player, the general issue is even more obvious to me. I like monstertaming games, I like Pokemon. I seek out other games in the genre. Some of them feel like they stand on their own, like, say, Dragon Quest Monsters or Monster Sanctuary. Others, like Coromon or Nexomon borrow so much from the Pokemon games that it's beyond hommage - they feel like very VERY elaborate Pokemon fan games. The most annoying thing to me is how there's usually a Pokeball equivalent in some other geometric shape. In Pokemon, they look like that because one of the inspirations was gachapon capsules, which look very similar if you imagine the white half to be translucent. In Coromon and Nexomon, it's a distinct Pokemon reference.
I like these games (even though I usually look for games that DON't feel like Pokemon) so this isn't to be taken too negatively, but it always makes me wish these games could try to stand on their own more.
oh my god thank you so much, i went into chained echoes so jazzed and ran face first into... well, all of what you mentioned, and I just couldn't continue. With that in my head, just seeing the sea of stars demo turned me off. the editing problems on chained echoes are such a dealbreaker for me which i kind of regret because like you say, there does seem to be something there that stands on its own, but I can't deal with it.
I just cannot even with the style of reference stuff that's so much "remember x? wouldn't you rather be interacting with that instead?"
Loved the video, I didn't play Chained Echoes but did fall off Sea of Stars after about five hours. I find myself mostly nodding along with the video but also finding it very entertaining. I appreciated how you were fair to the indie development backgrounds while not pulling any punches. Thanks for distracting me from work 😎
The "Attention Pittsburgh" gag is going to stick with me
Been waiting on this one since i heard you mention it on NoMoWo, great job!
This was a really good video Alex. I only played Chained Echoes for a little while. It felt strange because it was supposed to be retro or whatever but felt super modern and I couldn't come to terms with that. It makes me wonder about my own games though as they are all supposed to have that old spirit too. It's probably the writing that got to me in Chained Echoes and I haven't written much for my stuff yet, just coding and art and gameplay etc.
Also, I'm glad this is gaining traction. More views in 4 days than your first video did in 10 months.
Great video. Characters being referential, "quippy" or having monomaniacal foci in lieu of actual character growth is endemic across all kinds of media, video games and especially "retro-style" games are the most glaring example. Without good writing (including editing) it doesn't matter how good the visuals, music, mechanics and production are, the game's going to feel hollow. With writers understood as the most expendable part of a creative team by people with money, I don't see this problem going away anytime soon 😞
Delightful video. I'm grateful that TH-cam pushed this one in front of me. Your analytical technique is excellent, and I enjoy the wit as well. Great work, and thanks for sharing your well-constructed thoughts.
I came dangerously close to missing this video by virtue of its thumbnail. I did not expect a nuanced and well-thought-out criticism of the games, but rather more gushing over them. I'm glad I clicked anyways, I really enjoyed this.
I totally agree! I don't think there's anything wrong with being derivative, and a lot of people confuse homages/stealing with using genre conventions, but when people go out of their way to basically have an aversion to using their own ideas, it's a huge turn off
Those people usually don't have their own ideas to begin with, sadly.
You have owned a sub buddy.
I really like the in-depth critique of these games. They stand on a pillar of positive feedback and reviews for mechanical or artistic aspects, but both are let down a bit by shallow writing and references. Sea of Stars really took me by surprise, from a narrative perspective, because I was expecting a lot more depth. The very initial introduction of the characters, and the way the story handled Garl in the prologue was extremely off-putting.
I couldn't help but see Garl as a culmination of toxic positivity and desperation to belong. Both of his "friends" spend most of their time telling him he isn't "special" so there is no point in him trying to be a hero like they are. Then he literally loses his eye to protect Zale from a sneak attack after their egos lead them to break into the sealed dungeon, and no one even stops to consider his sacrifice or selflessness or even thank him. He gets a "you are lucky that is all you lost" from the master, a thunk on the head for disobeying the master, and then forgotten about for several years.
I was genuinely surprised he comes back with zero misgivings or regrets, just to act as a cheerleader and endlessly positive figure, and letter gets ret-conned to be "special" but different than the solstice warriors. Honestly, I felt like I resonated only with the sky god council characters who's on-screen bodyparts give strong indications that they are bored and don't really want to be there, having little to no interest in the party or their story.
Oh wow I never heard it explained that way.... but yes, Post Party Depression is real and it's why I tend to start get pretty sad when I feel I'm near the end of a game that has a cast of characters I absolutely love.
44:13 I'm gonna start saying this when my friends annoy me
Excellent video! It put into words what I felt(or rather missed feeling) when I played through Sea of Stars. I couldn't put my finger on why, but that game just didn't jam with me at all and I felt bad about disliking it.
My main problem was the characterization and story beats with Chained Echos. I think one of the worst is with Kylian.
I’ll put spoilers now, so reader beware-
So Kylian’s main thrust was to implement democracy into his kingdom, however it comes out that the city he came from all did terrible things to his sister. So he thinks that the people that are willing to do that to his sister are the proper people to rule his country?! So that’s one thing, but he keeps on doing things for “the greater good” and utterly failing, so betrays the main party, he tries to usurp the main character at the end and ends up almost destroying the world in the process, but at the end, he gets redeemed? I hate him so much and how the other characters treat him especially Glenn. It’s very frustrating.
"Matthias Linda (aka Ark Heiral)"
What a weird place to reference Final Fantasy Tactics... Hyral is Delita's last name
Finding Plot Armor as a piece of wearable gear IS the joke. I find that pretty funny. Maybe you were thinking too hard about that one? lol
Sea of Stars. My god, Sea of Stars. I wanted to love that game way more than I did. I backed that game on Kickstarter. The game is really pretty, the music is great, but the characters are so boring and the writing is so awful. And a good chunk of the problems I had with the narrative turned out to be because it was setting things up for the studio's earlier game, The Messenger, which I never played, so those references were lost on me.
6:15 I mean to be fair, Balthasar, Caspar and Melchior are bible references, not necessarily from games.. (but we all know it's because the 3 wise men were in CT and the like. Technically that makes it a quadruple reference!)
What do you think of Digital Devil Saga?
I've never played it actually! I've enjoyed the SMT games I've played so I should probably give it a shot.
I think there's two big issues when it comes to love letter media, the latter applying more to JRPGs. The first is that it's so, so much easier to enjoy something and want to make something like it than it is to, you know, actually make a good thing. Naturally most people who want to make games or films or whatever inspired by [very good thing] are more likely than not going to lack the ability to make such a thing.
The second thing is that for JRPGs, writing is of pretty much paramount importance. Sure, you want it to look and sound nice and have the combat be fun (please Japan, please, stop turning your JRPGs into action RPGs, try actually making turn based combat have depth and be fun in and of itself! I've seen it done, I know it's possible! Don't throw out the entire concept!) but at the end of the day what separates the genre, or at least what did, was its focus on story, on narrative and characters and the world. And making a video game is hard, it's something that requires a lot of different skillsets. And you just often, with small teams making a game, I find you have the issue where they're good at all the technical stuff, all the presentation bits, but no one in the team ever took so much as a Writing 101 course. You can go online and find all kinds of tutorials and guides on how to code, how to making 3D models, to use programs to creature music, etc. But there's much less for "How do I write good?" And so you get less good write. But goodwrite is what defines the genre, and without it... without it you're left with something approaching a hollow shell.
Okay as I was writing a secret third issue that ties back to the first one. And it's the core motivation behind the game itself. These original games, your Chrono Triggers and what have you. They were made by people who had an idea for a game and wanted to make that game. But love letters intrinsically don't have that. They're not starting from scratch and trying to be their own thing, to the best it can be. They're trying to ape something that already exists. I think that kind of initial launching point is a subtle thing most people don't think about but I think it ties back into the first point I made. It's not people who have an idea for something cool they want to bring into the world, it's people who want to make more of what's already there. Which, don't get me wrong, I fucking love Skies of Arcadia, I wish there was more! I get it! But I think Jurassic Park said it best:
"You were too busy thinking about whether you could that you didn't stop to think about whether you should."
-George R.R. Martin, 2004, The Fellowship of the Ring
The problem with writing is that like unlike most other artistic mediums a bad writer can be hard to spot for people who aren't also author's (unlike the writing in this comment) so you can have a boring conversation and show it to the office and they go "that's GREAT!" (or you fucking own the studio and think you can do better than any fancy schmancy writer !!). A bad drawing is instantly bad, bad music will make you shut it off and bad code just doesn't work. It also doesn't help that they guy who is writing these can only capture the form of what they are copying and not any sort of theme, the only things you can get is WOW! EVA! WOW! CHRONO TRIGGER! with not say you use the young boy in a mecha as a refutation for EVA's themes of trauma and depression (Gurren laggan). Also if you spend fucking 40 hours of reading dialogue it better be good, that's just like basic resource allocation lol.
@@techni1766 Yes, yes that's an excellent point I've always had trouble trying to convey! You can *tell* when music or a drawing or code is bad just on the face of it, but writing is more difficult to spot quality. Especially from only one or two sentences.
Like, generally if you get a half dozen screenshots and the art/graphics look good you can be confident that that level of quality will be consistent. But you get some screenshots where the dialogue box is visible and 4 of them are, you know, fine, serviceable, and two are kinda bad, you can't really know the quality of the writing. Because no few lines of dialogue or description can convey the quality of execution of the overall themes and ideas of the work, how well its characters bounce off one another, their chemistry, how they develop.
You need to see (or read, I guess) an entire section of a game or book or film containing an arc, be it a character's arc or a relationship's or a plot arc, something in its whole, to really get a feel for if that was handled well or not. And that's just not something seeing a few lines, or even a couple paragraphs in a vacuum, will tell you.
I think that's why it's harder to spot before you actually experience the work in its entirety, be it a book, film, video game or any other written work.
Great video with a good analysis of the writing issues Chained Echoes and Sea of Stars have (those are bugging me, but I never could put it into words...). Having said that - I think your argument about name references is the weakest one. It's not like Xeno Gears or Evangelion invented biblical names and imagery e.g., so it's a bit weird to fault Chained Echoes for doing the same approach of just throwing that in. But I do agree with you that certain details keep adding up.
hey are you the guy who used to review cookies?
So many of these "spiritual successors" and "love letters" are style over substance. The biggest issue appears to be that the writing just isn't there. It's affecting the whole creative industry, but writers suck now. They're all children who never had their work pressure-tested to become anything deeper or substantive. All our media is becoming drivel because nobody can write well anymore.
Kylian's absurd & upsetting twists ultimately made me put down Chained Echoes just before the very final act, but I enjoyed the rest of the game a lot. I had barely started Sea of Stars by the time the sickening tone & dull writing made me give it up. Garl alone was too much to bear, and I was anti-interested in the party's story. Very bleak and disappointing.
Thank you for this catharsis!
It's a bit ironic I gave this video a like after Steiner's math reference while watching how annoying references could be for half an hour.
I just think copying a game as fondly remembered (as well as frequently re-released) as Chrono Trigger is a bad idea. The stars aligned when that game came out, we'll never have anything like it again. Might as well put your own spin on the "Chrono Trigger" template, or at least make a "love letter" to a game that has not aged nearly as well but could be appealing with some modern touches, like Lufia and the Fortress of Doom.
Well I liked it so there
The dark souls stuff in tunic made the bosses not fun at all to fight in that game
The side by side comparisons made me want to play even more. Haha. I've tried both Chained Echoes and Sea of Stars on Game Pass and I made it about an hour into each and just never went back. Currently playing Octopath Traveler 2 and it's a masterpiece.
OMG, I'M SUCH A QUIRKY AND RELATABLE INDIE DEV!
I don't disagree with you about the eye-rolling quality of homage/reference... I still don't understand why people thought "Ready Player One" is good when it's literally just a super generic base plot supplemented with 10 totally random nerd references per paragraph... I also like Deloreans and old vidya games but that's not actually content. Just mentioning Pac-Man in passing for no reason has zero relevance or meaning. If you don't know about the things it references, it's trash. I think that's where it likely differs significantly from these games... I haven't had the time to play either one but it sounds like rather than just referencing things from other games, they actually "take inspiration" from the characters, scenes, etc. What I mean is that if you didn't know about some character or plot thing that was lifted from another game (as "homage", haha) you might really enjoy it in this context because it's been integrated into this project, not just mentioned in passing.
This video kinda made me want to play Chained Echoes, lol (I already intended to play SoS). I mean your non-homage-related issues with the writing will probably bother me, but it still sounds enjoyable. Terranigma is in my top 3 SNES RPGs
it makes me think of the simpsons a lot, which is also heavily based on reference humour, or at least was when I watched it, who knows today. it used a lot of reference but it was always in the service of creating something different, like a joke or something you could only catch if you were clued in, or something. the purpose of using them wasn't just to be 'this old movie existed'. I find a lot of clumsy reference just serves to make the reader/viewer/player think of something better than what they're partaking of currently, and I think making your viewer wish they were doing something else is a real bad place to be in.
Hey man this video ruled. Good stuff, I'm subbed waiting for more in the future 🫡