Hey Luther and Father Jonathan! Thank you both so much for having me on your show. This discussion was an absolute blast. The grace and charity you both showed me is something I hope all Christians aspire to. Blessings to you both!
Hello Jared! Thank you for being open about your experience and still being respectful to Orthodoxy. I hope you find peace in your heart! I may be wrong, but there is a vibe that you're not completely done with Christ. Well, at least I hope you're not :) Orthodoxy is completely different from other Christian denominations. Maybe Christ has led you away from your past life to give you a new one. But those are just my assumptions. Would be nice to see your reaction to our regular Sunday liturgy :) God bless you in everything you do!
Jared, when you say "grace", "blessings," what does that mean? Polite meaningless words to say? In case I sound arrogant, my apologies; I don't mean to. I am genuinely curious. By the way, (myself being a cradle atheist and now an Orthodox Christian,) I don't think you lost much. You escaped a deception, that's a good thing - and heterodox so called church is a deception, if a well-meaning one. You are in a precarious situation right now, but it was just as precarious, if not more, when you were "saved". Though experience of life in deception sure leaves a scar. Your mild blasphemies don't help though (not sure if you do them on purpose or even notice; when I was an atheist, I thought such things are funny and harmless.)
Wow! I recently discovered Jared and have binged all his atheist church audit videos. I can't believe he is now collaborating with one of my favorite Orthodox youtube channels.
Thank you, Father and Luther, for having him on. I discovered his channel about a month ago, and I Beige watched some of his videos. His content is very interesting and has a unique perspective on the churches here in America. But what got me about him was the mystery of his experience with God and what led him to be atheist. Gladly, this video clarified that for me. I believe that God will bring him to the truth which is in the Orthodox Church ☦️. God bless you both
Jared seems to wear a mask. This does not mean that he is fundamentally insincere, but his expressions and speech come across like a controlled performance. He seems guarded. And I sense bitterness behind the geniality. But what do I know…
What Jared needs is to meet a Saint, like Elder Paisios. A Greek Atheist went to see him and the elder called him by name and told him that he was expecting him. Then the saint prayed and the young man felt God in his heart, and that was it, he stopped being an atheist right away. I would have him go and speak to one of the sisters at the monastery in Troy, NC, at Panagia Prousiotissa Monastery or the priest at the men's monastery in NC. The young man asked first about Theosis, which is a great question, but to reach Theosis, one has to go through the little things in Orthodoxy. You start to crawl before you can walk. You learn to read before you can go to college, etc.
Or attend some more liturgies, I was pretty much done with Christianity from a non-ideological stance due to internal unassailable contradictions within the Roman Catholicism of my birth and protestantism writ large. God saw it profitable to absolutely melt my hardening cold dead despairing heart with His absolutely perfect energies of Love and Grace through the Church service and it shattered me to the core and has been rebuilding me ever since. I think if Jared attends a service like Forgiveness Vespers it would really cut deep.
I watch Jareds channel. I understand his struggle. I converted to Orthodoxy after living a life in protestant mindset for decades and it was organized religion as I knew that lacked the nourishment to the soul.Academic theological approach instead of the heart change becomes a shallow well This is a sola scriptura failing the person. Following the death of my daughter I kept having dreams and It was in those periods of darkness and despair I found the praxis of hesychasm and the Jesus prayer. There is something that is authentic in his story but God acts in ways that we can receive Him. Dreams are not to be trusted, but it was dreams that brought me to the church to experience Ancient Christianity.
I really relate to the shallow well of academic Christianity. As a Protestant I had gone to a Bible college, led Christian groups and Bible studies, become a teacher at my church, etc. but in the end I was bored and tuned out when going to church. Everything I heard taught was something I had heard before. I felt like there was nothing else for me to LEARN. That was the problem, all I was trying to do was acquire all the knowledge about what to believe. But my life was just becoming worse over time. All that head knowledge didn’t help me become a more godly person, just the opposite.
I spent 18 years as a JW and Jared's videos are extremely accurate and informative. Even though I am now Orthodox, I still struggle with the baggage I accumulated while being in the Watchtower. Jared actually lives in my neck of the woods if he is in Raleigh. Thanks for this one.
Same here man, same here. Hope you didn't loose family, or have at least found a new family who truly loves you in orthodoxy. Soon to be recieved myself.
@@jacob4047 They never was in ..I was converted through my daughter’s mother….But spent most of my involvement with them studying ..Then when I I finally made the decision to get so called baptized I didn’t last too long ..Thank God because the few years I spent involved with them I feel like was a waste of time ..
I often warn Orthodox inquirers that they will likely become an atheist before (or soon after) they become Orthodox. You have to throw off your previous conceptions about God before He can make Himself truly known. Jared presents as a righteous gentile, like the centurion, wise, humble and seeking. Should he find faith and become Orthodox, he will be a wellspring of grace. I thank God that don't have a the courage or knowledge to have the same struggles as he has been through. We can all learn from his patience and humility. Great interview!
We have modern miracles happening in our time in Orthodoxy like a monk’s fresh corpse smiling and more incorruptible relics. When I was still Protestant I’d end my nightly prayers with a prostration for an atheist friend for months and he suddenly got reached by some Protestants. He ended accepting Christ. I don’t see your point at all.
He exudes humility, understanding, and authenticity. I love his channel - it helps me see how others view the world outside of the Orthodox world I am present in.
My husband and I are orthodox and we LOVED Jared’s videos ❤. So awesome to see him on your channel. We attend Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Church . He definitely should stop by !
Looking forward to this. I'm also a former Pentecostal. I watched a recent video where he talks about the pain of losing his relationship with Jesus. I hope he see that bad theology put him in that place, and that Jesus is waiting for him still. ☦️
@JunkyJeeMail IMO, I can see that rationalism played a massive role in his deconversion. He can't see that his inuition on ancient stories or events is not a reliable guide to whether or not they are true or false. His Protestant faith was based on the idea that he intuitively found it true. When that was no longer the case, he left. It was a bad foundation all along.
I had a similar story to Jared, raised a Baptist, went to college rejected God and became an Atheist, then God in Christ gave me a vision of His crucifixion. In the vision Christ was on the cross and He uttered the words "Just Try" while I was staring at Him. He kept repeating it over and over. Then 3 days later I had the same vision. From that point on, i commited my Soul to Christ. My doubts were obliterated, my Faith completely restored. It was divine intervention, and I am hopeful Jared also recieves this gift of Grace from God. Israel means wrestle with God. We are Israel :)
Jared’s story reminds me that faith is precious and don’t take it for granted. It’s funny, I didn’t believe in God when I started going to church. When my first baby was born, transcendence spoke to me. I went to an Episcopal church regularly for years starting in 1993 because the music was beautiful. Fast forward to 2022 I was received in the Orthodox Church. It took almost 30 years for my faith to coalesce! So, you want me to believe a a dove flew out the side of St Polycarp? No problemo 😂
Yes. Me, too. I was raised in the Church of Christ/Christian Church, and were *very* rationalist. I love not having to decide. It’s not gullibility. I just don’t have to sit in judgment. If God became Man and rose from the Dead, all else is commentary. Besides, I’ve watch a paper print icon of Our Blessed Lady exude myrrh, also sweating it full it’s glass cover. So much it was dripping all over. And I experience strength after Confession and weakness after sin. It’s that simple.
Father, I loved what you said about how any priest worth his salt wouldn’t give a book to read to a new visitor. When I first visited my parish as an inquirer I told my priest that when talking with orthodox Christians I was always confused and intrigued about how when they read the Bible they would see things in an entirely unique way that I couldn’t understand. I asked him how I could learn to understand the orthodox perspective and what I should read. His only answer was that the liturgy and services of the church teach you how to think orthodox. So I spent the next couple months going to every service (my parish has daily vespers) and then asked to become a catechumen. Eventually I read “The Mind of the Orthodox Church” by Met Hierotheos which turned out to be exactly what I was looking for, but I realized when I read it that I would not have been ready to read it when I first showed up. Thank God for good pastors. Immersing yourself in the life of the church and learning the cycle of worship is very powerful in reorienting the mind. It’s one of the reasons my priest insists that catechumens must spend at least a whole year as a catechumen to learn the entire cycle of Christian life.
This is why the grandma that is at every service is a "better theologian" than the terminally academic person. We have analogies to this in other things in life: sports, farming, anything that requires bodily involvement really. You can only learn so much from books, the meat is really in experiencing it and living it.
I got the knowledgeable grandma and a book-giving priest at my first liturgy. "The Orthodox Way" was the book and was what I needed. Now I'm Orthodox after many years!
What a great conversation. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, but Jared comes across as someone who is still struggling with God, not unlike Jacob did. May the Lord continue to struggle with him. "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you."- St. Augustine
This is an insane coincidence! My wife and I were involved with FIRE in the Netherlands. I can understand the upset. I know several others as well.This was about 10 years ago. I became Orthodox later.
Father Jonathan mentioned, holy transfiguration Orthodox Church, especially as English speaking. Another great English-speaking parish in the Raleigh area is all saints Antiochian, Orthodox Church.
Another great video. Watching the interaction between Orthodoxy and Atheism here put an interesting dynamic on display that we don't often get to see in such a constructive forum without the dialogue devolving into a tense and fruitless exchange--which was made possible by Jared's candid and sober approach to the faith, having (somehow) remained humble and sympathetic towards Christians after his deconversion. It's rare to encounter atheists who aren't adversarial against theists; all the more so when it comes specifically to those who, out of resentment or some other emotional baggage, feel threatened by their former faith, and are thus defensive by default. I'm inclined to Fr. Jonathan's point, in holding out hope for Jared. After all, he was never actually in THE Church, so he technically never left it. 😉
I just watched this video interview of Jared yesterday. Forgive my long windedness, this comment will be long. Always the way with me 🙈🤷♂️ First off I’ve gotta say, what a respectful young man, and well spoken too, and I love his sense of humour. I think I can MAYBE see a little bit of where he is struggling, and I think given time, Orthodoxy could give him the answers that he has been searching for and not finding. He mentioned embellishments of the stories told about some of the martyrs, and for just an instant at the beginning of my own journey to becoming Orthodox it also bothered me, but as I have had it explained to me, first off, those can be distractions if that is what our focus is on, miracles. But first jumping to his comparison of whether or not Jesus resurrected and whether what was told about Him was all true, because of doubt over a story told about a martyred saint, … it beggars belief that all the disciples (and the several hundred others) who saw Christ die and then rise from the dead and ate and walk and talk with him, would make it all up and willingly all go to their VERY horrific deaths over a KNOWN lie. It’s one thing all together different however to see people willingly go to their deaths over a HOPE, … I’ve seen that, especially with recent cult followings that promised this or that and convinced their followers of something in a hope and then commit a mass peaceful suicide pact over it (by putting people to sleep first), which should have rang alarms bells in them to begin with, but this is definitely not that. So maybe being forgiving of certain embellishing of stories told of martyrs is needed because it simply falls under the category of people desiring to encourage others to have the same faith and courage to withstand the current climate of likely being martyred themselves one day soon, and to “stay the course” as a Christian ready to die for Christ too, which all Christians living in the first several centuries lived under the threat of. But jumping back to thinking about all of what those disciples of Christ personally witnessed, who were originally so scared for their own lives that they wouldn’t even stand by His side when being questioned & condemned, or stand at the foot of the cross and but who chose instead to hide away for fear of losing their own life, who then all did a 180 after they spent time with Christ after His resurrection and all became men of courage and conviction…. (along with all the many others who also got to see Christ personally in those 40 days), … yeah there is no way that could be anything but factual, truthful… (and compelling.) I really did love his one question put to Fr Jonathan as well on Theosis. In my unimportant opinion it sort of gave me a window into what he maybe is looking for as well. I’m not sure that he stated it but I kind of sensed he was thinking it, that there was something lacking in all of the experiences he went through in the various Protestant organisations or contacts (churches, professors & schools), and with him asking about Theosis, tho I may be overthinking it a little, it gave me the sense that he wanted more than what he could find in all of his experiences in Protestantism. I think you mentioned it (both of you) how one can get lost in books and the whole intellectual side of it all, and sort of “miss the boat” as a result (if that’s the right analogy) because one can often get lost in all the words and ideas, … when really what Orthodoxy teaches and should bring someone to the understanding of is that we should be experiencing Him (by participating in the Orthodox life, and not to diminish the importance of all that involves, but most especially prayer as Orthodoxy teaches and guide us into doing, which I never could even come close to in Protestantism), more than reading about Him and dissecting every scripture verse and theological idea and so on. Most especially because, as Orthodox know it, it is the Church that is the “pillar and ground of truth”, and that the written words that were put together centuries later does not encompass ALL that being a Christian is. I’m not sure I said that correctly, so I hope that made a little bit of sense. I could myself share true miraculous things that have happened in my life, that were far from “coincidences” and happenstance by a country mile, both at a young age and also 2 yrs into Orthodoxy just last year, that for myself, tells me He is there and real, and wants to change our lives if we properly let him. But then I’ve also coming to the understanding that those are for me and that generally no amount of sharing about them with someone else is going to suddenly change another person’s convictions on the spot. We also are not to focus on miracles, nor look for them as a way to convince ourselves or others that “yes God is real”, but rather if they happen in one’s life, it is for that person, and for a reason, and maybe to a certain degree I’m wrong about this last part, but it’s also not so much for everyone else. Thank you Luther & Fr Jonathan as always for bringing insightful and highly engaging videos. I truly was on the edge of my seat for this one. And thank you Jared for your generosity.
Loved this interview and this guest! I really enjoyed the video he did on his visit to the Orthodox Church and will check out more of his channel. Keep up the good work!
He mentions frequently how he is not convinced, "doesn't believe," "doesn't think it's true," etc. As a person who had very similar feelings of having my belief "slip away," I have to ask: why does any of that matter? Western Rationalism is quite an interesting phenomenon. Why would it matter in regards to truth value whether or not your mental assessment finds it to be plausible or convincing?
Another issue is that Protestantism has many core doctrines that are exclusively intellectual and have no connection to the real practical world. Their conception of salvation as an imaginary legal status provides no link between salvation in Christ and the world we see. It's all just in the head.
Probably because believing in a claim is required to actually convert. And belief is everything. So if you're not convinced, you're not going to believe it IS the truth. There has to be some level of getting convinced, which may or may not include things like experience, or logical arguments or other things.
@@BrandonTmusic Incorrect. You do not need to be convinced to place your trust in something. I am not "convinced" of the right way to build a bridge, but I trust that the experts know how to do it correctly and that the next one I drive over won't crumble. At most, I only need to be convinced of the credibility of the one making the claim.
@Theo_Skeptomai It's a multi-tiered answer. First would be Jesus, as claimed by the Apostles, as claimed by the Early Church. So we have multiple layers of things to trust. Of course, the teachings of Orthodoxy are so beneficial that it adds a whole new layer to it. Your life will be best if you live Orthodox.
Jared - I love your honesty. ❤And I loved this conversation. I want to recommend The Lord of Spirits podcast for a deeper dive into the reality of the cosmos. I spent the first 45 years of my life in hazy Christian confusion brought about by a materialistic view of the universe. It was as natural as breathing to me. The late Dr. Michael Heiser taught things I'd never heard before, and he was famous for saying that none of it was original to him. Fast forward - Fathers Stephen DeYoung and Andrew Stephen Damick have been instrumental in my ongoing awakening. It's all real. I promise. Don't stop seeking. ❤
I can feel his pain. I think faith is very difficult for a member of a church that doesn't have an experience of God and is simply an intellectual faith only. If you cannot see the fruits of faith, through figures like our modern saints for example, then faith becomes simply a matter of choice, there's no anchor there.
What does "an experience of God" mean? For those without the essence/energy distinction, an experience of God usually boils down to feeling goosebumps, something that can be immitated at any secular concert.
I think about how much different my life could have been if I could actually feel it. Instead, it felt like I was just hanging on and trying not to lose Pascal's Wager. As a child, I concluded that if it was not for hellfire and brimstone sermons, Christianity would either be tiny or extinct. I hate the SBC and their adjacents.
Jared’s path has been so similar to mine: Pentecostal -> Crazy “ministry school” -> Go into ministry in a Cult of Personality, with really amazing people -> Begin to ask questions and deconstruct the “faith” I had and “experiences” I had -> Deny it all, save the Gospel -> Searching for Truth -> Find Orthodoxy -> Convert to Orthodoxy Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on Jared and all of us.
I've been watching Jared's videos which I find very interesting very entertaining. I also watched your podcast today which I liked hearing Jared's journey so far. I'm an old lady who was raised a conservative Lutheran, became Catholic and a Benedictine Oblate . But after losing our son to suicide.. I didn't quite lose my faith but I lost my relationship with God. The church we were attending after the funeral was pretty non-existent as far as any support for us. So I quit going to church for quite a while but I think Orthodox came after me because I kept finding these little bread crumbs about Orthodoxy. When I really began looking into the Orthodox Church I took a class and then found a small Church in our town. The first question I asked Father ..where is my son, ..and he said.... he is with God because God is all merciful. That's all I needed to hear. I became an Orthodox Christian in 2016 and my husband just became Orthodox a year ago. I still struggle with feeling God's presence though. Jared seems to me to be a person as in Catholicism would describe having a dark night of the soul.. which for some people can last decades. We have several young men coming to our church now and and are wanting to become orthodox. Two of them describe themselves as atheists. Our Faith life is a journey and it can take many twists and turns. I see in Jared a very intelligent young man who is searching and I will pray for him and I'm going to pray that he finds a home and a place and a place of peace in the Orthodox Church. .
I'm pretty common, just another guy who was stuck with the SBC, hated it, and went atheist. I suspected that catholicism wasn't any better, many catholic schools were a pipeline to atheism. The only reason I bothered to look at Orthodox is because a few years ago, some guys discussed what a scam Pascal's Wager is. Some people jokingly call the people who fell for it "Fire insurance clients." It gave me a huge distaste for most Christian things. I am not saying I genuinely want to convert. I am just saying that I find it interesting to see something other than growth via "Go forth and multiply or burn in hell" sermons. Pascal can take his wager and shove it. All I ever got from the SBC was 27 years of paranoia from all that hellfire and brimstone stuff. Nothing ever actually made a difference. There are plenty of people who end up like me, but it hasn't been talked about much until recently. I couldn't "Just believe" no matter what it took. It was like telling my mind to believe 2+2=3 and expecting it to work. I cannot say there is no god or gods. I just say it can't be knowable to me at this time. I suppose that is some kind of agnosticism? When I read about some person arguing that people have to be religious, I say that the weebs and otakus should go shinto. I don't say that with seriousness. I only say it to be a jerk to the "Y'all need Jesus" crowd but say "Get religion" to avoid conflict. My mother shipped me off to Lakeside Christian School of Clearwater Florida, and it one of two things I can't forgive her for. For years, she said "You chose to believe." I did not choose freely, I was manipulated. I couldn't get that point across to her for many years. One day I finally did get a point because of another point Allen Carr made. Allen Carr said that some people choose to try smoking. Nobody chooses to become a smoker. If it was a choice, most smokers would just choose to be non-smokers. I told mom "Someone might give time or money to a con man. However, nobody chose to be conned." I think that got a point across, but it was too late. It would not help how I felt about my mother or bring much closure.
I would agree with this point on miracles, if we pick and choose which miracle to believe it's arbitrary, Christianity and Christian miracles is a whole package thing. From what I already saw in my life I know God is able to do anything (like making doves appear) if He can create everything He can do anything
Jared, I first heard about you through the Paul Vanderklay/this little corner of the Internet world. I’d love to talk to you about theosis. I can get your contact intro from Paul or even Chad The Alcoholic.
I think you can tell him about the beauty of the relationship with God, of the liturgy, of the Biblical truths it does not touch him. He wants to be the forever onlooker. He says himself that Jesus established a cult (like the cult he encountered in the Netherlands that made him flee). What puzzles me is that if it is all just delusions, wishful dreaming and lies for him - why does he want to engage with lies?? There is just something jarring with his oh-so-honest and oh-so-respectful and oh-so-gentle presentation..... and this comment is not meant to be an attack.
This Jared dude is brilliant. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing, because I don't know if his transparency is an act or is real. I certainly feel empathy, but he is too good of a speaker. I don't know what to make of him 🤔
I dunno. I listened through the deconversion parts, and still don't know what were the reasons why Jared actually deconverted. A lot of explaining around the question, and he did a good job of avoiding the question. I do respect Fr. Jonathan seeing through it, and not pushing it as it wouldn't have been helpful. Hopefully he will return to the faith for the sake of Christ, and nothing else.
I agree it's vague. It seems to have started with an intuitive feeling of 'this doesn't seem feasible' onto which rational arguments were added such as 'the Bible is not reliable'
I really like this guy, if your reading this, jared, don't worry about offending us. Just be honest and genuine and your going to be less offensive than most christians.
Interesting convo although always sad to hear stories like Jared’s. I pray he finds his way back to Jesus. Not to be critical, just wanted to point out at about 45:26, music started randomly playing. This has happened in other videos recently on your channel. I’m not sure if it was intentional, but it’s very distracting 😅
RC viewer here-- it is not easy to classify Jared. He defies the typical stereotype of the angry atheist who wanted to have s*x with is gf. Perhaps there is some intellectual struggling but that doesn't explaint the warmth, openness, and continual engagement in visiting churches and his very insightful and constructive comentary. Perhaps Jared said it best himself, that he is Jacob wrestling with God. I don't believe that there is anything I can say, no books to recommend, no one magical church to visit that will change this. It looks like a process which will need to work itself out until that mystical daybreak when he had a new name that blessing.
This man is odd....an atheist that spends his free time visiting churches....hmmm. He acts sincere but when it comes down to it, he says Jesus was a fraud and a cult leader. Forgive me Father, not sure why you would give him a platform. He is charming, and intelligent,. He slyly compliments us while telling us we worship a fraud.. Also, I think he knows a lot more about Orthodoxy than he lets on...but I could be wrong.
I don't see this as too much of a bad thing. What I see is someone who has to question the meaning of life and look all over the place for it. It's nothing like what I am used to, where some troll is pointing and laughing.
Very cool interview! Could've been nice to hear his perspective on modern saints and whether he knows the orthodox saints and the difference between them and post-schism catholic saints since he was a protestant and probably never had that veneration of the church fathers when reading them as christians of apostolic traditions have
@@joshua_wherley I’m wondering if anything abnormal, but also something undefinable that puts a person onto a lane or experience. Spiritual in a sense, that only you would know and understand, and it happened or happens
@@riccshawchannel that makes sense to me, thank you. I am a convert to Orthodoxy from a Protestant background. Having been Orthodox for seven years now has lead me to re-examine what I perceived as spiritual experiences in my Protestant years. Some were likely just emotions, some were likely a connection with the Divine. But a term like "spiritual experience" means different things to different people, so I figured I'd ask how you thought of it!
I can think of three kinds of spiritual experience: true miracles; false miracles; and spiritual deception. The first one is rather optional, and can be helpful or harmful, depending on how you react; the second is rather dangerous, unless you ignore it; and the third is absolutely devastating. Judging by his present disposition, one could assume he did have a spiritual experience, and it did not go quite well.
I went through his transcript and can understand why he fell away. Being disappointed when finding you are part of a cult movement, and other very human facades in college (talk of politics, church speak) rather than an actual encounter with the spiritual world is quite the expected reaction. Regarding evidence, Jared placed more weight on the "science" of analysing text rather than the eyewitness accounts of who wrote the books in the bible. It is quite interesting that Jared was disturbed by a dove seen by a believer leaving Polycarp's body. I would think that the fact that his body could not be burnt, or that his blood put out the fire was harder to swallow. What does he make then of the dove that was seen to land on Jesus during his baptism? Or of Jesus and the apostles walking through walls? It seems like he thinks that all the miracles are just figments of imagination because science says it is so. There are reincarnation accounts that are scientifically verified. We cannot explain how a child can be born and actually know graphic details of its previous life, but we can still conclude we have a lot about life that we don't know about. You may not find the Western Christian philosophy satisfying (it isn';t), but why throw out the baby with the bathwater?
I think he is seeking for God. If a man is hungry and then looks for a book to read, the book won’t satisfy the hunger. He’s groping after God in the dark. But finding other things that cannot satisfy his longing.
@@oliviagilliam6550 he ain’t a true nihilist tho. He doesn’t live like it. How people act in the world shows what they believe. I think he’s confused but I’d say it seems like he still has a faith is God even if he doesn’t realize it
@@Nashmax yeah exactly. Like we can say we believe in whatever we want but our actions and how we act out in the world is what shows what we believe. I think a lot of “atheist” are more christian then they realize. I think they are just confused because of our naturalistic culture of thought. Even atheists have been reported having NDEs of Christ. Same with Muslims also, very interesting stuff
Grace is from God but faith is a choice. This guy acts like it just went away. But what happens is one starts to make choices to feed off the world or God and their faith either strengthens or weakens. If ur faith is built on an imaginary god that may or may not be there then it’s shallow and will be lost. But if your faith is in reason, looking at science pointing to a creator, Biblical facts and prophesies, archeology, facts about Jesus, the crucifixion and resurrection. If your faith is built on those facts it stands and strengthens. But for EVERYTHING there is one side vss another. You can either feed the doubt or the faith. Then when you throw your faith away it means u really never believed it in the first place. Because if you did then you can’t.
No, faith is "trust." The problem is that in the west, faith is viewed as being intellectually convinced of something. You can stop being convinced outside of your own will. The problem is that faith has nothing to do with being intellectually convinced. Not everyone finds those "facts" you mentioned to be convincing. I don't. I choose to trust the Church anyway.
@@Theo_Skeptomai You can choose to *trust* it, yes. You could choose to trust anything. Fundamentally, this means living your life as if the thing were true, regardless of how convinced you are. This is all that is demanded by Christianity.
@@Theo_Skeptomai no, that’s what I’m saying. If you’re just choosing to believe in God or a god or not then more than likely it will fade. If when you look at science you will see over time it has shown there was a beginning. Before it was the universe was eternal but now we know it’s not. You can look at that and say you wish to wait and see or take the info you have and decide to believe there is a creator. Evolution, old earth, young earth whichever way you go you can see God in it, a creator or decide to just wait and see if anything else might pop up. Key is the more advanced science has become it points more and more to a creator. From there we look at History, what God did with Israel, the prophesies about the Messiah, then Christ Himself. Even atheist scholars, real ones cannot deny Jesus was here, Jesus was crucified and many truly believed Jesus rose from the dead. Then the Apostles, disciples, the spreading of the Church. You can take all that as many do and just be skeptical until you have no answers. Or receive the Grace of God that He lavishes on all and believe it. You can start by realizing that is the most logical answer. Or you can feed yourself with skeptics and find one excuse after the other not to fully accept it. Then once accepted, if you truly believe it, if you allow yourself to take it in, then your life will be changed, and God will lead and guide you. God doesn’t just ask us to believe without any evidences, He has given you plenty, but He’s also given you a choice. Now it’s up to you. Feed yourself with faithful people, faithful teachings and your faith will grow and His word will grow in you. The guy in video just decided he’s gonna follow the skeptics and became a skeptic himself to the point of rejection. Now there are no answers, just waiting hoping science or something can prove that God is not. The problem is it never has and never will.
Hey Luther and Father Jonathan!
Thank you both so much for having me on your show. This discussion was an absolute blast. The grace and charity you both showed me is something I hope all Christians aspire to.
Blessings to you both!
Hello Jared! Thank you for being open about your experience and still being respectful to Orthodoxy. I hope you find peace in your heart!
I may be wrong, but there is a vibe that you're not completely done with Christ. Well, at least I hope you're not :)
Orthodoxy is completely different from other Christian denominations. Maybe Christ has led you away from your past life to give you a new one. But those are just my assumptions. Would be nice to see your reaction to our regular Sunday liturgy :)
God bless you in everything you do!
☦
Thanks for your kind words Jared. The love and respect are mutual fam! ☦️
Jared I just want to give you a huge hug man, I appreciate the conversation you had with them, I wish you the best!
Jared, when you say "grace", "blessings," what does that mean? Polite meaningless words to say? In case I sound arrogant, my apologies; I don't mean to. I am genuinely curious.
By the way, (myself being a cradle atheist and now an Orthodox Christian,) I don't think you lost much. You escaped a deception, that's a good thing - and heterodox so called church is a deception, if a well-meaning one. You are in a precarious situation right now, but it was just as precarious, if not more, when you were "saved". Though experience of life in deception sure leaves a scar.
Your mild blasphemies don't help though (not sure if you do them on purpose or even notice; when I was an atheist, I thought such things are funny and harmless.)
Wow! I recently discovered Jared and have binged all his atheist church audit videos. I can't believe he is now collaborating with one of my favorite Orthodox youtube channels.
Thanks and Same! He's a very likeable guy and down to earth.
This is awesome! I just came across his channel and love his charity, honesty, and open-mindedness. Lookin forward to this one!
Same here
Thank you, Father and Luther, for having him on. I discovered his channel about a month ago, and I Beige watched some of his videos. His content is very interesting and has a unique perspective on the churches here in America. But what got me about him was the mystery of his experience with God and what led him to be atheist. Gladly, this video clarified that for me. I believe that God will bring him to the truth which is in the Orthodox Church ☦️. God bless you both
Jared seems to wear a mask. This does not mean that he is fundamentally insincere, but his expressions and speech come across like a controlled performance. He seems guarded. And I sense bitterness behind the geniality.
But what do I know…
What Jared needs is to meet a Saint, like Elder Paisios. A Greek Atheist went to see him and the elder called him by name and told him that he was expecting him. Then the saint prayed and the young man felt God in his heart, and that was it, he stopped being an atheist right away. I would have him go and speak to one of the sisters at the monastery in Troy, NC, at Panagia Prousiotissa Monastery or the priest at the men's monastery in NC. The young man asked first about Theosis, which is a great question, but to reach Theosis, one has to go through the little things in Orthodoxy. You start to crawl before you can walk. You learn to read before you can go to college, etc.
Amen! ❤
Or attend some more liturgies, I was pretty much done with Christianity from a non-ideological stance due to internal unassailable contradictions within the Roman Catholicism of my birth and protestantism writ large.
God saw it profitable to absolutely melt my hardening cold dead despairing heart with His absolutely perfect energies of Love and Grace through the Church service and it shattered me to the core and has been rebuilding me ever since.
I think if Jared attends a service like Forgiveness Vespers it would really cut deep.
I watch Jareds channel. I understand his struggle. I converted to Orthodoxy after living a life in protestant mindset for decades and it was organized religion as I knew that lacked the nourishment to the soul.Academic theological approach instead of the heart change becomes a shallow well This is a sola scriptura failing the person. Following the death of my daughter I kept having dreams and It was in those periods of darkness and despair I found the praxis of hesychasm and the Jesus prayer. There is something that is authentic in his story but God acts in ways that we can receive Him. Dreams are not to be trusted, but it was dreams that brought me to the church to experience Ancient Christianity.
Beautiful ☦️ Thanks for sharing, and may your daughter's memory be eternal.
I really relate to the shallow well of academic Christianity. As a Protestant I had gone to a Bible college, led Christian groups and Bible studies, become a teacher at my church, etc. but in the end I was bored and tuned out when going to church. Everything I heard taught was something I had heard before. I felt like there was nothing else for me to LEARN. That was the problem, all I was trying to do was acquire all the knowledge about what to believe. But my life was just becoming worse over time. All that head knowledge didn’t help me become a more godly person, just the opposite.
I spent 18 years as a JW and Jared's videos are extremely accurate and informative. Even though I am now Orthodox, I still struggle with the baggage I accumulated while being in the Watchtower. Jared actually lives in my neck of the woods if he is in Raleigh. Thanks for this one.
Same here man, same here. Hope you didn't loose family, or have at least found a new family who truly loves you in orthodoxy. Soon to be recieved myself.
I was baptized JW for 2 1/2 years and now been Orthodox for. About 2 1/2 years….It does leave a lasting affect on people ..
@@kianis1206 , your family still in?
@@jacob4047 They never was in ..I was converted through my daughter’s mother….But spent most of my involvement with them studying ..Then when I I finally made the decision to get so called baptized I didn’t last too long ..Thank God because the few years I spent involved with them I feel like was a waste of time ..
@@kianis1206 I'm glad you made it out with your family brother and thank God we both escaped!
I often warn Orthodox inquirers that they will likely become an atheist before (or soon after) they become Orthodox. You have to throw off your previous conceptions about God before He can make Himself truly known. Jared presents as a righteous gentile, like the centurion, wise, humble and seeking. Should he find faith and become Orthodox, he will be a wellspring of grace. I thank God that don't have a the courage or knowledge to have the same struggles as he has been through. We can all learn from his patience and humility.
Great interview!
We have modern miracles happening in our time in Orthodoxy like a monk’s fresh corpse smiling and more incorruptible relics.
When I was still Protestant I’d end my nightly prayers with a prostration for an atheist friend for months and he suddenly got reached by some Protestants. He ended accepting Christ. I don’t see your point at all.
He exudes humility, understanding, and authenticity. I love his channel - it helps me see how others view the world outside of the Orthodox world I am present in.
My husband and I are orthodox and we LOVED Jared’s videos ❤. So awesome to see him on your channel. We attend Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Church . He definitely should stop by !
@@1988bogdana That's amazing! I hope Jared visits you guys.
Looking forward to this. I'm also a former Pentecostal. I watched a recent video where he talks about the pain of losing his relationship with Jesus. I hope he see that bad theology put him in that place, and that Jesus is waiting for him still. ☦️
@JunkyJeeMail IMO, I can see that rationalism played a massive role in his deconversion. He can't see that his inuition on ancient stories or events is not a reliable guide to whether or not they are true or false. His Protestant faith was based on the idea that he intuitively found it true. When that was no longer the case, he left. It was a bad foundation all along.
@@EpistemicAnthonythat strikes me as a fair summary of what came through to me as well.
I had a similar story to Jared, raised a Baptist, went to college rejected God and became an Atheist, then God in Christ gave me a vision of His crucifixion. In the vision Christ was on the cross and He uttered the words "Just Try" while I was staring at Him. He kept repeating it over and over. Then 3 days later I had the same vision. From that point on, i commited my Soul to Christ. My doubts were obliterated, my Faith completely restored. It was divine intervention, and I am hopeful Jared also recieves this gift of Grace from God. Israel means wrestle with God. We are Israel :)
This was a beautiful discussion. I like Jared he sounds kind and honest.
I've been seeing Atheists react to Orthodoxy lately. It's been lovely.
Jared’s story reminds me that faith is precious and don’t take it for granted.
It’s funny, I didn’t believe in God when I started going to church. When my first baby was born, transcendence spoke to me. I went to an Episcopal church regularly for years starting in 1993 because the music was beautiful. Fast forward to 2022 I was received in the Orthodox Church. It took almost 30 years for my faith to coalesce! So, you want me to believe a a dove flew out the side of St Polycarp? No problemo 😂
Yes. Me, too. I was raised in the Church of Christ/Christian Church, and were *very* rationalist. I love not having to decide. It’s not gullibility. I just don’t have to sit in judgment. If God became Man and rose from the Dead, all else is commentary. Besides, I’ve watch a paper print icon of Our Blessed Lady exude myrrh, also sweating it full it’s glass cover. So much it was dripping all over. And I experience strength after Confession and weakness after sin. It’s that simple.
Father, I loved what you said about how any priest worth his salt wouldn’t give a book to read to a new visitor. When I first visited my parish as an inquirer I told my priest that when talking with orthodox Christians I was always confused and intrigued about how when they read the Bible they would see things in an entirely unique way that I couldn’t understand. I asked him how I could learn to understand the orthodox perspective and what I should read. His only answer was that the liturgy and services of the church teach you how to think orthodox. So I spent the next couple months going to every service (my parish has daily vespers) and then asked to become a catechumen. Eventually I read “The Mind of the Orthodox Church” by Met Hierotheos which turned out to be exactly what I was looking for, but I realized when I read it that I would not have been ready to read it when I first showed up. Thank God for good pastors. Immersing yourself in the life of the church and learning the cycle of worship is very powerful in reorienting the mind. It’s one of the reasons my priest insists that catechumens must spend at least a whole year as a catechumen to learn the entire cycle of Christian life.
This is why the grandma that is at every service is a "better theologian" than the terminally academic person. We have analogies to this in other things in life: sports, farming, anything that requires bodily involvement really. You can only learn so much from books, the meat is really in experiencing it and living it.
I got the knowledgeable grandma and a book-giving priest at my first liturgy. "The Orthodox Way" was the book and was what I needed. Now I'm Orthodox after many years!
What a great conversation. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, but Jared comes across as someone who is still struggling with God, not unlike Jacob did. May the Lord continue to struggle with him. "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you."- St. Augustine
Really pleasantly surprised to see this interview. I found Jared's channel a few weeks ago. Wonderful talk.
God bless us.
This is an insane coincidence! My wife and I were involved with FIRE in the Netherlands. I can understand the upset. I know several others as well.This was about 10 years ago. I became Orthodox later.
Wow! Crazy coincidence.
@@TheTransfiguredLifecoincidence?
@@traceyedson9652 unpredictable circumstance.
can't wait. I've loved his honesty and charity in his church audits.
Father Jonathan mentioned, holy transfiguration Orthodox Church, especially as English speaking. Another great English-speaking parish in the Raleigh area is all saints Antiochian, Orthodox Church.
Nice. I saw his video when he visited an EO church. Cool to see he’s still engaging EO.
Another great video. Watching the interaction between Orthodoxy and Atheism here put an interesting dynamic on display that we don't often get to see in such a constructive forum without the dialogue devolving into a tense and fruitless exchange--which was made possible by Jared's candid and sober approach to the faith, having (somehow) remained humble and sympathetic towards Christians after his deconversion. It's rare to encounter atheists who aren't adversarial against theists; all the more so when it comes specifically to those who, out of resentment or some other emotional baggage, feel threatened by their former faith, and are thus defensive by default.
I'm inclined to Fr. Jonathan's point, in holding out hope for Jared. After all, he was never actually in THE Church, so he technically never left it. 😉
Good point! Orthodoxy will make sense of all the perversions he's seen. I can only hold out hope as well! ☦️
I almost didn't recognize it was you Luther! Glad to come across your channel in the wild, great content!
I just watched this video interview of Jared yesterday. Forgive my long windedness, this comment will be long. Always the way with me 🙈🤷♂️
First off I’ve gotta say, what a respectful young man, and well spoken too, and I love his sense of humour.
I think I can MAYBE see a little bit of where he is struggling, and I think given time, Orthodoxy could give him the answers that he has been searching for and not finding.
He mentioned embellishments of the stories told about some of the martyrs, and for just an instant at the beginning of my own journey to becoming Orthodox it also bothered me, but as I have had it explained to me, first off, those can be distractions if that is what our focus is on, miracles.
But first jumping to his comparison of whether or not Jesus resurrected and whether what was told about Him was all true, because of doubt over a story told about a martyred saint, … it beggars belief that all the disciples (and the several hundred others) who saw Christ die and then rise from the dead and ate and walk and talk with him, would make it all up and willingly all go to their VERY horrific deaths over a KNOWN lie. It’s one thing all together different however to see people willingly go to their deaths over a HOPE, … I’ve seen that, especially with recent cult followings that promised this or that and convinced their followers of something in a hope and then commit a mass peaceful suicide pact over it (by putting people to sleep first), which should have rang alarms bells in them to begin with, but this is definitely not that.
So maybe being forgiving of certain embellishing of stories told of martyrs is needed because it simply falls under the category of people desiring to encourage others to have the same faith and courage to withstand the current climate of likely being martyred themselves one day soon, and to “stay the course” as a Christian ready to die for Christ too, which all Christians living in the first several centuries lived under the threat of.
But jumping back to thinking about all of what those disciples of Christ personally witnessed, who were originally so scared for their own lives that they wouldn’t even stand by His side when being questioned & condemned, or stand at the foot of the cross and but who chose instead to hide away for fear of losing their own life, who then all did a 180 after they spent time with Christ after His resurrection and all became men of courage and conviction…. (along with all the many others who also got to see Christ personally in those 40 days), … yeah there is no way that could be anything but factual, truthful… (and compelling.)
I really did love his one question put to Fr Jonathan as well on Theosis. In my unimportant opinion it sort of gave me a window into what he maybe is looking for as well. I’m not sure that he stated it but I kind of sensed he was thinking it, that there was something lacking in all of the experiences he went through in the various Protestant organisations or contacts (churches, professors & schools), and with him asking about Theosis, tho I may be overthinking it a little, it gave me the sense that he wanted more than what he could find in all of his experiences in Protestantism.
I think you mentioned it (both of you) how one can get lost in books and the whole intellectual side of it all, and sort of “miss the boat” as a result (if that’s the right analogy) because one can often get lost in all the words and ideas, … when really what Orthodoxy teaches and should bring someone to the understanding of is that we should be experiencing Him (by participating in the Orthodox life, and not to diminish the importance of all that involves, but most especially prayer as Orthodoxy teaches and guide us into doing, which I never could even come close to in Protestantism), more than reading about Him and dissecting every scripture verse and theological idea and so on. Most especially because, as Orthodox know it, it is the Church that is the “pillar and ground of truth”, and that the written words that were put together centuries later does not encompass ALL that being a Christian is.
I’m not sure I said that correctly, so I hope that made a little bit of sense.
I could myself share true miraculous things that have happened in my life, that were far from “coincidences” and happenstance by a country mile, both at a young age and also 2 yrs into Orthodoxy just last year, that for myself, tells me He is there and real, and wants to change our lives if we properly let him. But then I’ve also coming to the understanding that those are for me and that generally no amount of sharing about them with someone else is going to suddenly change another person’s convictions on the spot. We also are not to focus on miracles, nor look for them as a way to convince ourselves or others that “yes God is real”, but rather if they happen in one’s life, it is for that person, and for a reason, and maybe to a certain degree I’m wrong about this last part, but it’s also not so much for everyone else.
Thank you Luther & Fr Jonathan as always for bringing insightful and highly engaging videos. I truly was on the edge of my seat for this one. And thank you Jared for your generosity.
TH-cam algorithm is giving me all of Jared's interviews at once! It's late, so I will have to wait till tomorrow, but this is very exciting!
Hes so down to earth! Ilove his fascination with theosis! ❤ Praying for you Jared! ☦️
Jared, did you watch death to the world from harmony? You would like that video
This was so timely. Thank you for doing this interview!
Loved this interview and this guest! I really enjoyed the video he did on his visit to the Orthodox Church and will check out more of his channel. Keep up the good work!
He mentions frequently how he is not convinced, "doesn't believe," "doesn't think it's true," etc. As a person who had very similar feelings of having my belief "slip away," I have to ask: why does any of that matter? Western Rationalism is quite an interesting phenomenon. Why would it matter in regards to truth value whether or not your mental assessment finds it to be plausible or convincing?
Another issue is that Protestantism has many core doctrines that are exclusively intellectual and have no connection to the real practical world. Their conception of salvation as an imaginary legal status provides no link between salvation in Christ and the world we see. It's all just in the head.
Probably because believing in a claim is required to actually convert. And belief is everything. So if you're not convinced, you're not going to believe it IS the truth. There has to be some level of getting convinced, which may or may not include things like experience, or logical arguments or other things.
@@BrandonTmusic Incorrect. You do not need to be convinced to place your trust in something. I am not "convinced" of the right way to build a bridge, but I trust that the experts know how to do it correctly and that the next one I drive over won't crumble. At most, I only need to be convinced of the credibility of the one making the claim.
@EpistemicAnthony Who _exactly_ is claiming this 'God' to be a _reality?_
@Theo_Skeptomai It's a multi-tiered answer. First would be Jesus, as claimed by the Apostles, as claimed by the Early Church. So we have multiple layers of things to trust.
Of course, the teachings of Orthodoxy are so beneficial that it adds a whole new layer to it. Your life will be best if you live Orthodox.
Looking forward to this!
This was interesting! I’d love to talk to this guy, it’d be such an interesting conversation
Jared - I love your honesty. ❤And I loved this conversation.
I want to recommend The Lord of Spirits podcast for a deeper dive into the reality of the cosmos.
I spent the first 45 years of my life in hazy Christian confusion brought about by a materialistic view of the universe. It was as natural as breathing to me.
The late Dr. Michael Heiser taught things I'd never heard before, and he was famous for saying that none of it was original to him. Fast forward - Fathers Stephen DeYoung and Andrew Stephen Damick have been instrumental in my ongoing awakening.
It's all real. I promise. Don't stop seeking. ❤
I can feel his pain. I think faith is very difficult for a member of a church that doesn't have an experience of God and is simply an intellectual faith only. If you cannot see the fruits of faith, through figures like our modern saints for example, then faith becomes simply a matter of choice, there's no anchor there.
What does "an experience of God" mean? For those without the essence/energy distinction, an experience of God usually boils down to feeling goosebumps, something that can be immitated at any secular concert.
@@EpistemicAnthony That's what I mean. Having the essence/energies is crucial in my opinion.
@@EpistemicAnthony The essence/energy distinction is a crucial part of orthodoxy
@@EpistemicAnthonyof course, the purpose of the liturgy and services is to provide us with experience.
I think about how much different my life could have been if I could actually feel it. Instead, it felt like I was just hanging on and trying not to lose Pascal's Wager.
As a child, I concluded that if it was not for hellfire and brimstone sermons, Christianity would either be tiny or extinct.
I hate the SBC and their adjacents.
This video in particular deserves more likes.
Jared’s path has been so similar to mine:
Pentecostal -> Crazy “ministry school” -> Go into ministry in a Cult of Personality, with really amazing people -> Begin to ask questions and deconstruct the “faith” I had and “experiences” I had -> Deny it all, save the Gospel -> Searching for Truth -> Find Orthodoxy -> Convert to Orthodoxy
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on Jared and all of us.
Loved his video, this should be interesting
I've been watching Jared's videos which I find very interesting very entertaining. I also watched your podcast today which I liked hearing Jared's journey so far. I'm an old lady who was raised a conservative Lutheran, became Catholic and a Benedictine Oblate .
But after losing our son to suicide.. I didn't quite lose my faith but I lost my relationship with God. The church we were attending after the funeral was pretty non-existent as far as any support for us. So I quit going to church for quite a while but I think Orthodox came after me because I kept finding these little bread crumbs about Orthodoxy. When I really began looking into the Orthodox Church I took a class and then found a small Church in our town. The first question I asked Father ..where is my son, ..and he said.... he is with God because God is all merciful. That's all I needed to hear. I became an Orthodox Christian in 2016 and my husband just became Orthodox a year ago. I still struggle with feeling God's presence though. Jared seems to me to be a person as in Catholicism would describe having a dark night of the soul.. which for some people can last decades. We have several young men coming to our church now and and are wanting to become orthodox. Two of them describe themselves as atheists. Our Faith life is a journey and it can take many twists and turns. I see in Jared a very intelligent young man who is searching and I will pray for him and I'm going to pray that he finds a home and a place and a place of peace in the Orthodox Church.
.
Great segment! May God bless Jared, what a sincere young man. I’ll have to check out his videos.
I'm pretty common, just another guy who was stuck with the SBC, hated it, and went atheist. I suspected that catholicism wasn't any better, many catholic schools were a pipeline to atheism.
The only reason I bothered to look at Orthodox is because a few years ago, some guys discussed what a scam Pascal's Wager is. Some people jokingly call the people who fell for it "Fire insurance clients." It gave me a huge distaste for most Christian things.
I am not saying I genuinely want to convert. I am just saying that I find it interesting to see something other than growth via "Go forth and multiply or burn in hell" sermons. Pascal can take his wager and shove it.
All I ever got from the SBC was 27 years of paranoia from all that hellfire and brimstone stuff. Nothing ever actually made a difference. There are plenty of people who end up like me, but it hasn't been talked about much until recently.
I couldn't "Just believe" no matter what it took. It was like telling my mind to believe 2+2=3 and expecting it to work.
I cannot say there is no god or gods. I just say it can't be knowable to me at this time. I suppose that is some kind of agnosticism?
When I read about some person arguing that people have to be religious, I say that the weebs and otakus should go shinto. I don't say that with seriousness. I only say it to be a jerk to the "Y'all need Jesus" crowd but say "Get religion" to avoid conflict.
My mother shipped me off to Lakeside Christian School of Clearwater Florida, and it one of two things I can't forgive her for. For years, she said "You chose to believe." I did not choose freely, I was manipulated. I couldn't get that point across to her for many years. One day I finally did get a point because of another point Allen Carr made. Allen Carr said that some people choose to try smoking. Nobody chooses to become a smoker. If it was a choice, most smokers would just choose to be non-smokers. I told mom "Someone might give time or money to a con man. However, nobody chose to be conned." I think that got a point across, but it was too late. It would not help how I felt about my mother or bring much closure.
I would agree with this point on miracles, if we pick and choose which miracle to believe it's arbitrary, Christianity and Christian miracles is a whole package thing. From what I already saw in my life I know God is able to do anything (like making doves appear) if He can create everything He can do anything
Thank you for this interview
Jared, I first heard about you through the Paul Vanderklay/this little corner of the Internet world. I’d love to talk to you about theosis. I can get your contact intro from Paul or even Chad The Alcoholic.
I think you can tell him about the beauty of the relationship with God, of the liturgy, of the Biblical truths it does not touch him. He wants to be the forever onlooker. He says himself that Jesus established a cult (like the cult he encountered in the Netherlands that made him flee). What puzzles me is that if it is all just delusions, wishful dreaming and lies for him - why does he want to engage with lies?? There is just something jarring with his oh-so-honest and oh-so-respectful and oh-so-gentle presentation..... and this comment is not meant to be an attack.
Jared is hilarious and not braindead I love him
This Jared dude is brilliant. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing, because I don't know if his transparency is an act or is real. I certainly feel empathy, but he is too good of a speaker. I don't know what to make of him 🤔
I just read this comment after I posted my own. He is undoubtedly intelligent. And he is very friendly. But I sense more is going on than he reveals.
Great talk, praying the Holy Spirit draws him home 🙏.
Would "home" be a belief in the _reality_ of this 'God'?
@Theo_Skeptomai stop asking the same question and go visit an Orthodox Church friend. Peace ✌️
@andys3035 I have. Have you any more unwarranted false projections?
@@Theo_Skeptomai how was it?
I really love this guy... he is such a great voice
Great episode again guys thank you
"Life is long"
Not always
I dunno. I listened through the deconversion parts, and still don't know what were the reasons why Jared actually deconverted. A lot of explaining around the question, and he did a good job of avoiding the question. I do respect Fr. Jonathan seeing through it, and not pushing it as it wouldn't have been helpful. Hopefully he will return to the faith for the sake of Christ, and nothing else.
I agree it's vague. It seems to have started with an intuitive feeling of 'this doesn't seem feasible' onto which rational arguments were added such as 'the Bible is not reliable'
Fayetteville, NC here 45 miles away
was not excepting this appreciate the content nonetheless. Glory to God☦
I really like this guy, if your reading this, jared, don't worry about offending us. Just be honest and genuine and your going to be less offensive than most christians.
This was just wonderful!
What a fantastic guest!
Good stuff!
Interesting convo although always sad to hear stories like Jared’s. I pray he finds his way back to Jesus. Not to be critical, just wanted to point out at about 45:26, music started randomly playing. This has happened in other videos recently on your channel. I’m not sure if it was intentional, but it’s very distracting 😅
love this guy
Is it just me, or does Jared look like he could be Fr. Jonathan’s son?
If you pray really hard, he might become one. The ball is in your court now.
RC viewer here-- it is not easy to classify Jared. He defies the typical stereotype of the angry atheist who wanted to have s*x with is gf. Perhaps there is some intellectual struggling but that doesn't explaint the warmth, openness, and continual engagement in visiting churches and his very insightful and constructive comentary.
Perhaps Jared said it best himself, that he is Jacob wrestling with God. I don't believe that there is anything I can say, no books to recommend, no one magical church to visit that will change this. It looks like a process which will need to work itself out until that mystical daybreak when he had a new name that blessing.
I wonder how many people will spend their entire life not getting it.
Oooo THEOSIS! Great question!
So very helpful. Thank you all for this!!
This man is odd....an atheist that spends his free time visiting churches....hmmm. He acts sincere but when it comes down to it, he says Jesus was a fraud and a cult leader. Forgive me Father, not sure why you would give him a platform. He is charming, and intelligent,. He slyly compliments us while telling us we worship a fraud.. Also, I think he knows a lot more about Orthodoxy than he lets on...but I could be wrong.
Do you think he’s being dishonest? But your other points seem fair, though others are edified.
I don't see this as too much of a bad thing. What I see is someone who has to question the meaning of life and look all over the place for it.
It's nothing like what I am used to, where some troll is pointing and laughing.
Very cool interview!
Could've been nice to hear his perspective on modern saints and whether he knows the orthodox saints and the difference between them and post-schism catholic saints since he was a protestant and probably never had that veneration of the church fathers when reading them as christians of apostolic traditions have
Waiting on the Lord is truly so important. Ask of Him and wait on Him.
Ooooo is he really gonna do a full Divine Liturgy!?
❤️☦️🇺🇸
I wonder if he ever has had spiritual experiences. Curious
Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "spiritual experience"?
I think his former denomination had a pentecostal orientation, so I’m guessing he had spiritual experiences
@@joshua_wherley I’m wondering if anything abnormal, but also something undefinable that puts a person onto a lane or experience. Spiritual in a sense, that only you would know and understand, and it happened or happens
@@riccshawchannel that makes sense to me, thank you. I am a convert to Orthodoxy from a Protestant background. Having been Orthodox for seven years now has lead me to re-examine what I perceived as spiritual experiences in my Protestant years. Some were likely just emotions, some were likely a connection with the Divine. But a term like "spiritual experience" means different things to different people, so I figured I'd ask how you thought of it!
I can think of three kinds of spiritual experience: true miracles; false miracles; and spiritual deception. The first one is rather optional, and can be helpful or harmful, depending on how you react; the second is rather dangerous, unless you ignore it; and the third is absolutely devastating.
Judging by his present disposition, one could assume he did have a spiritual experience, and it did not go quite well.
☦️☦️☦️
I went through his transcript and can understand why he fell away. Being disappointed when finding you are part of a cult movement, and other very human facades in college (talk of politics, church speak) rather than an actual encounter with the spiritual world is quite the expected reaction.
Regarding evidence, Jared placed more weight on the "science" of analysing text rather than the eyewitness accounts of who wrote the books in the bible. It is quite interesting that Jared was disturbed by a dove seen by a believer leaving Polycarp's body. I would think that the fact that his body could not be burnt, or that his blood put out the fire was harder to swallow. What does he make then of the dove that was seen to land on Jesus during his baptism? Or of Jesus and the apostles walking through walls? It seems like he thinks that all the miracles are just figments of imagination because science says it is so. There are reincarnation accounts that are scientifically verified. We cannot explain how a child can be born and actually know graphic details of its previous life, but we can still conclude we have a lot about life that we don't know about. You may not find the Western Christian philosophy satisfying (it isn';t), but why throw out the baby with the bathwater?
Come and see......
Amen! ☦️
I think he is seeking for God. If a man is hungry and then looks for a book to read, the book won’t satisfy the hunger. He’s groping after God in the dark. But finding other things that cannot satisfy his longing.
So is he saying that he doesn’t know what his worldview is?
He described himself as a nihilist.
@@oliviagilliam6550 he ain’t a true nihilist tho. He doesn’t live like it. How people act in the world shows what they believe. I think he’s confused but I’d say it seems like he still has a faith is God even if he doesn’t realize it
@@user-lj3ku5yd1h Agree. Religion is not what you believe so much as it is how you worship, and everybody is worshipping somebody/something.
@@Nashmax yeah exactly. Like we can say we believe in whatever we want but our actions and how we act out in the world is what shows what we believe. I think a lot of “atheist” are more christian then they realize. I think they are just confused because of our naturalistic culture of thought. Even atheists have been reported having NDEs of Christ. Same with Muslims also, very interesting stuff
Obligatory *audible eye roll* 😅
What's wrong with Jesus being a cult leader? Wasn't he in the beginning? 😅😅😅
Grace is from God but faith is a choice. This guy acts like it just went away. But what happens is one starts to make choices to feed off the world or God and their faith either strengthens or weakens.
If ur faith is built on an imaginary god that may or may not be there then it’s shallow and will be lost.
But if your faith is in reason, looking at science pointing to a creator, Biblical facts and prophesies, archeology, facts about Jesus, the crucifixion and resurrection.
If your faith is built on those facts it stands and strengthens.
But for EVERYTHING there is one side vss another. You can either feed the doubt or the faith.
Then when you throw your faith away it means u really never believed it in the first place. Because if you did then you can’t.
No, faith is "trust." The problem is that in the west, faith is viewed as being intellectually convinced of something. You can stop being convinced outside of your own will. The problem is that faith has nothing to do with being intellectually convinced. Not everyone finds those "facts" you mentioned to be convincing. I don't. I choose to trust the Church anyway.
Are you asserting I can simply _choose_ to believe that this 'God' is a reality?
@@Theo_Skeptomai You can choose to *trust* it, yes. You could choose to trust anything. Fundamentally, this means living your life as if the thing were true, regardless of how convinced you are. This is all that is demanded by Christianity.
@@Theo_Skeptomai no, that’s what I’m saying. If you’re just choosing to believe in God or a god or not then more than likely it will fade.
If when you look at science you will see over time it has shown there was a beginning. Before it was the universe was eternal but now we know it’s not. You can look at that and say you wish to wait and see or take the info you have and decide to believe there is a creator. Evolution, old earth, young earth whichever way you go you can see God in it, a creator or decide to just wait and see if anything else might pop up. Key is the more advanced science has become it points more and more to a creator.
From there we look at History, what God did with Israel, the prophesies about the Messiah, then Christ Himself.
Even atheist scholars, real ones cannot deny Jesus was here, Jesus was crucified and many truly believed Jesus rose from the dead. Then the Apostles, disciples, the spreading of the Church.
You can take all that as many do and just be skeptical until you have no answers. Or receive the Grace of God that He lavishes on all and believe it. You can start by realizing that is the most logical answer. Or you can feed yourself with skeptics and find one excuse after the other not to fully accept it.
Then once accepted, if you truly believe it, if you allow yourself to take it in, then your life will be changed, and God will lead and guide you.
God doesn’t just ask us to believe without any evidences, He has given you plenty, but He’s also given you a choice. Now it’s up to you.
Feed yourself with faithful people, faithful teachings and your faith will grow and His word will grow in you.
The guy in video just decided he’s gonna follow the skeptics and became a skeptic himself to the point of rejection.
Now there are no answers, just waiting hoping science or something can prove that God is not. The problem is it never has and never will.
@EpistemicAnthony How can anyone "trust" something that they believe isn't a reality? Please explain.