Top Ten Fallen Heroes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2022
- Listen to Fallen by Stryper. It's really cool. Anywho, Top Ten Fallen Heroes!
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You know something? The idea of fallen heroes sort of subverts the “Hero’s Journey” trope by changing their ideology or morality, I’m sure it goes deeper than that.
It’s a similar route called the “villain’s journey” same route basically but instead of becoming a good hero the character becomes a villain.
@@doodlertoodlert8728 This. In fact, Literature Devil recently did a video on the Villain’s Journey. You guys should check it out!
"For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." -- Elrond, _The Fellowship of the Ring_
"Gandalf as Ring Lord would have been far worse than Sauron." -- J. R. R. Tolkien
From my experience a "Heroes Journey," actually has multiple forks in the road
If they reject the call to adventure the story becomes a person trying to live in an adventurous/changing world, all the hobbits that did not go with Frodo (until the burning of the shire), the messages usually resist the call to adventure and try to live simple, don't rock the boat is what's best, if a person does answer the call, they usually come to regret it.
The fork that leads to "fallen hero," is usually the "belly of the beast moment,"
choice to stay on the "good path," or another route, sometimes the fallen hero is not on the fallen hero, we're just seeing the regrouping of strength that is sometimes glossed over.
Say if a hero doesn't want to go fight the big bad after trauma, there is the "gathering strength arc, fork in the road, hero is go fight, fallen is run and hide, the story of the hero overcoming that fear could both be fallen, or just hero, it's if they ever make the "right choice,"
Then comes the question if the hero is no longer in their right mind/has control of their actions, through no fault of their own.
Should that count as a fallen hero
@@gamemasteranthony2756 the disrespect to Anakin Skywalker here is dispicable!
I really love Oersted's story
It's so sad, and the perfect example when a good man loses everything, everyone, and the whole world is against you, then your heart just breaks
Like that saying of the kid that never knows the warm of the people, will embrace the fire of the village
But this time is the kid that lost the warm of the people of the village and set the whole world throughout time on fire
Astro Man: Come on, Let's get you your happy ending.
Oersted: I have no happy ending.
Astro Man: Sure you do. I just need to do one thing for you.
Astro Man goes back and prevents the princess from being kidnapped, by killing the demon that kidnapped her before it happened.
@Grima the Fell Dragon Tiny... In a way, you're not wrong. Unfortunately for Oersted, he's stuck in a timeline that's basically Dragon Quest... Written by WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.
@Grima the Fell Dragon I’m still confused as to why the princess thought he didn’t care for her or didn’t try and save her and then just immediately killed herself without letting him explain his side of this whole ordeal. Like seriously I’m still really confused at that
@@thetrophygamer3606 it was just about to comment on the oersted entry because I'm honestly confused as well because from the looks of it the dude is the walking example of no good deed goes unpunished
Unless Josh missed something or I just misunderstood by the looks of it the dude literally did nothing wrong until he suffered his mental breakdown and had I played through that myself I would honestly have been a little pissed
If he had found her dead with a note or something explaining that she had lost hope I could at least understand the logic behind it but for her to just kill herself in front of him made no sense
@@zombieslayer2016 yeah that would have made sense. Or hell just have her be mind controlled by demons to say that and have them trick the knight into doing that. It would have made the turn a lot less stupid
The thing with Sephiroth is, he didnt actually learn the truth. He learnt what he THOUGHT was the truth.
Had he actually found out the circumstances of his birth.... Hojo would probably had died much sooner.
That and it would've been very likely Sephiroth would've been the one to find and wake up Vincent under the Nibelheim manor, considering Vince is the only one who knows where Lucrecia's body is.
@@Twilightiger96 Though Sephi doesnt know they share a connection.
@@Twilightiger96 considering he's up and alive again, it'll be interesting to see if they have any interactions now.
@@shadowsnake5133 I wouldn't be surprised if the FF7 Remake eventually throws us a curve-ball by actually *REDEEMING* Sephiroth and making him a party member and then making *JENOVA* the true final villain. After all, there have already been some big changes and some details that we don't know yet (such as why Rufus could see the Whispers, but Tseng couldn't, despite us never seeing Rufus come into direct contact with a Whisper prior to them swarming over Shinra tower).
There is also the fact that the books he read to learn about the circumstances of his birth were actually just outdated hypotheses about what, exactly Jenova is. Oh, of course, Jenova cells were implanted into Sephiroth's Mom to turn Sephy into the ultimate super soldier but Jenova was never an Ancient.
She was never a Cetra. She was an alien that the Cetra had imprisoned because her goals were literally just to destroy the planet so that she could use its pieces to build what (by Doctor Who standards) would likely be a very primitive space ship to go to another planet, and do the same fuckin' thing. Why? Who knows why? All that we know is that the Cetra should've killed her and that Sephiroth was factually incorrect about the circumstances of his birth and the only one who knew that was pretty much Vincent.
It's a shame Sephiroth never lived long enough for Vincent to tell him that he was wrong.
It's one thing to be a failed hero when trying to do the right thing but not having things work out. It's another thing to be a fallen hero who was once praised but lost his/her way and ends up becoming the one thing they sworn to destroy. In some cases these fallen heroes end up becoming the greatest threat to all who stand in their way. If you're not with them you're against them. Let's find out which heroes end up turning to the dark side so to speak.
to me the perfectly way of showing a fallen hero was Superman in injustice as he love everything that meant so much to him slowly became darker and evil losing the truth of Batman and other heroes and showing no redeemable moments which is how you handle a downfall story line showing any one can have moment to be redeemed but you need to show hints and clues if they are to take it like Disney did with Frollo and Lando in star wars
It just like the joker said all it take is one bad day
@@zetsunaflames In a way jokers right in a way one bad day can turn someone into something they aren't from people actions or the effects of what the person or the people put theme into
The crazy thing about Arthas is that his extremely immoral and desperate methods were completely practical. No one had an answer for the Plague of Undeath, no cure.. And by the time it would be made, the whole land would be overcome by the Plague.
The Culling was terrible, yet it worked. Arthas was just not mentally strong enough to live with the agony of his choice. He broke, and that made him vulnerable to Frostmourne's whispers.
Also didn’t help that the ones he trusted turned away from him before his darkest fall.
True. I mean when Genn Greymane the King of the at the time neutral kingdom of Gilneas gave permission for his Archmage Audrial to free the Worgen from the Emerald Dream he literally had no choice as when the undead were coming upon Gilneas the kingdom was still in the process of recovering it's resources, resolving it's national debt, and training new men and women for it's military forces so he literally had no choice but to have the Worgen be freed sure it resulted in the Worgen Curse falling upon most of the kingdom and it's inhabitants including Genn himself, his son, and his daughter but he was desperate to protect Gilneas from the undead threat that was literally coming right to his kingdom's doorstep and literally had no choice due to Gilneas still recovering from the 2nd War.
@@derrickhaggard Hilariously, long term that was probably the correct choice.
@@ShadowWolfRising Yep especially considering Gilneas as a whole was still recovering after the events of the 2nd War as when the Undead aka the Scourge were coming upon the kingdom Genn was still in the process of replacing his kingdom's resources, resolving a national debt as fighting the massive war as part of the Alliance meant Gilneas' treasury took a massive hit, and training new men and women as soldiers in the military as like with the treasury, fighting as part of the Alliance in the 2nd War ensured Gilneas' military took a massive hit. So when the Undead started swiftly appearing on his Kingdom's doorstep and having declared that his kingdom would be neutral and out of the Alliance due to the 2nd War doing massive number on them Genn agreed to Audriel's plan of releasing the Worgen from the Emerald Dream and unleashing them upon the Undead because he literally had no viable options due to the state of the kingdom at the time.
No...just no. You know what would of made Arthas's decision understandable or justifiable? If it actually worked in the long run...which it didn't. If 90% of Lordaeron didn't turn into a diseased and undead filled shit hole afterwards than I'd think differently lol. Are we also forgetting his whole meltdown regarding the ships and mercs?
Oersted is the embodiment of "All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy."
In fairness, he had 2.
Except Oersted din't had a bad day.From the time of the tournament to the end of the chapter,i'd say he had a whole bad week.And "The Dark Knight" came after Live a Live.
@@DemonK1ngODIO That line comes from The Killing Joke, which came out 6 years before Live a Live. And the Joker is wrong. He gave Gordon a bad day. A horrible day. And he didn't break
@@aionicthunder but only that.a day.only a day.Oersted din't have the entire police force on his side when his bad day came.
@@aionicthunder "You can’t break a man the way you break a dog or a horse.The harder you beat a man,the taller he stands.To break a man's will,to break his spirit you have to break his mind."
The Jackal,Far Cry 2
#1 reminds me of a scene from Lord of the Rings, and I’m surprised there was no mention of it in the entry.
The scene in question is when Frodo learns the truth about the heirloom Bilbo left him, that it’s The One Ring. He tries to give it to Gandalf, who he believes to be better equipped to deal with it, but Gandalf is wise enough to refuse.
“DON’T… _TEMPT ME!_ … … Understand, dear Frodo, that I would use The Ring out of a desire to do _good._ But _through me,_ it would commit _terrible_ evil.”
it's actually really debtable how much frostmourne affected Arthas' judgement, but there's certanly hints that he had the capacity for evil in him and is certainly still in the driver's seat yars after he turned into the Lich King.
At the very least, the one who murdered his dad in cold blood was likely Arthas and not Frostmourne.
Fun fact: The #1 entry is also the page image on TV Tropes for "Face-Heel Turn".
I'm glad Live A Live is in this list because Oersted's fall from grace is just TRAGIC! More people need to play this absolute gem!
Edit: The remake adds a bit to the endings, and the game won't let you screen record it, all the more reason to play this game
It’s how I heard about the game in the first place. Gotta thank Josh for that one.
It is rather accurate to say Jin was neutral evil, considering not every action he took after falling was bad or cruel.
Saving Nia, Patroka and Akhos from imprisonment and persecution was a good deed, even it led to him having allies in his crusade to kill The Architect.
One can still do good things for evil reasons.
That’s called “Pragmatic Villainy”. Knowing one’s own limits, and whether the cost of a rival’s alliance is worth the achievement of your own goal.
Jin is (one of) Xeno's versions of Darth Vader, and a very good version of it.
Not the best one, not anymore, but very very good.
Kind of, though that depends on which meaning of Neutral Evil we're referring to. For example, the Dungeons and Dragons way of defining it is more like what applies of Jin, but in Pathfinder Neutral Evil is more like PURE evil, which he most certainly is not.
Although he also killed hundreds of soldiers from mor ardain in the name of freeing core crystals
Sigma is good for the transitions because he’s such a good example of the idea, and it’s not even completely his fault. He started as a heroic and respected character, who even the protagonist looks up to. Then he gets a dose of Maverick Virus, and instead of just turning insanely violent like Zero, his formidable virtues of intelligence and leadership get turned into the greatest _danger_ in the world. Some of the Mavericks were corrupted by the virus, but some _chose_ to follow him.
Also, his fall is complete; no redemption for him. By the time of _X4,_ his mind is beginning to degrade, and in _X6,_ he’s literally a shambling, half-dead shell.
I always found it interesting that Sephiroth has been usually voiced by an actor that also played Superman. Great range I say.
And Superman embodies strength under control (which is what _true_ meekness is).
@@KororaPenguin "True meekness"? Oh, bull.
here is a random piece of trivia:
The japanese voice actor for all might plays the grim reaper in the japanese dub of billy and mandy
@@_Tzer There's a funny fact: Sephiroth's Japanese voice actor played (Horton the elephant) from the Blue sky film. The idea of Japanese Sephiroth trying to emulate Jim Carry is odd.
Poor Oersted like damn I've seen characters get screwed over but this man was violated everyone who loved you turned against your best friend betrays you out of jealousy and the woman you loved who was the only thing keeping you together falls in love with traitor of a friend because he got there first and laid the moves on her and after his death she kills herself because she lost faith in you and can't live without the other that's some tragic shit I'm gonna write that down
I’m kinda miffed the remake only threw him a sliver of a bone
Like, the princess didn't even give Oersted a chance to explain the hell he went through just to try to save her.
@@maximaldinotrap also, how did she not hear Streighbow confuse to murdering her father?
@@dragonstouch1042He probably cast a spell to keep her from hearing that.
The moment you mentioned Brad, I immediately thought of that reference you gave to him in your “worst endings” list. I didn’t think the story would be THAT grim, though.
I usually don't like fallen heroes type of villains as I thought they just snapped after they gave up too soon but growing up made me realized it's not that simple, it's very complicated as anything can go wrong and no one is safe from pain and suffering either by their bad decisions or from an situation that's out of their control.
That's the message of the game #2 came from. No amount of purity, wisdom, strength or honor can keep one's resolve fully immune from dark desires. Any one of us could be the next Demon King Odio.
#2 got me much more interested in the game than any of it's trailers that I've seen. Thank you. Now I'm definitely getting that game.
Poor guy...
Same here. Holy crap, that's a depressing villain backstory.
Well. Have you enjoyed the remake as much as I did? That being *INFINETLY*
meanwhile I avoided this list to play the game first... and now that I finished it I needed to see WHERE they fell into... not dissapointed whatsoever
Just beat the game today. #2 is a straight up Shakespearean tradegy in the most generic rpg clothing just to through you off. Game was amazing
Yeah, This beyond Shakespeare level sh*t here.
*Warning Spoilers for Persona 5 Royal*
In honor of the passing of his VA, i would like to put Dr Takuto Maruki from Persona 5 Royal as a candidate for "fallen hero".
Maruki was orginally a brilliant scientist working on researching cognitive psience, aka the science behind the perception of reality by humanity and how that perception can be altered to change how one percieves reality. However when the love of his life fell into a catatonic depresion and then full on breakdown due to her parents being murderd, Maruki unconciously contacted an mysterious entitiy who through the power of changing cognition purged her of her traumatic memories but also her memories of him, forcing him to cut ties with her.
Using this new power, Maruki tried to dig further into his research to harness this power, but when his funding was cut , he instead turned to becoming a counciler to try and help others....problem was his power ending up doing more harm long term, including making a girl who had lost her twin sister in an accident, end up completely beliving (along with everyone else) that she was her twin sister.
After the events of the base game, Maruki's powers end up manifesting in full as a Persona named Azahroth and Maruki ends up using his power to create a world where everyone can get exactly what they want. This includes the protagonists, all of whom Maruki used as research for his power while acting as a counciler at their school.
What makes Maruki a fallen hero is that all he wants and has ever wanted is for people to be happy, for people to have the right to live a life with what they want most of all, all out of selfless desire....except the problem with that is that by giving everyone exactly what they wanted, he also ereased the growth they had all achived from overcoming their flaws and failures, creating a superficial and fake almost dream like reality. By granting the surface layer wishes of the protagonists and the world, he robbed them of the ability to truely change for the better as well as their bonds through empathy for each other, and even before hand he used his status as a counciler to extract the infomation from the protagonists when they were at their most emotionally vunurable, using them as research for his long term goal.
And in the end when the time comes to face him and end the reality he is trying to create, he does NOT take it well, as in his eyes, all he is doing is taking away the pain and suffering.
Soooo similar to the Tales of Berseria villain's story...without the sister in prison part
R.I.P, Billy Kametz.
In other words:Get over yourself or get wrecked!
I agree with this 100% He was a man who ha everything going for him til that tragic day. Nothing screams broken more than that.
"I had good intentions. We both know which road is paved with those." -- Mussolini, Niven and Pournelle's _Inferno_
Spoilers for FF7 Crisis Core for those who haven't played it...
Sephiroth's story is actually even sadder than you think. He had two friends who were is commanding officers named Angeal and Genisis. They were also Jenova experiments from a different scientist who was copying Hojo. The three of them were close. Unlike Sephiroth though, they later became unstable. Their bodies literally started to degrade as they rejected the Jenova cells.
Genisis, upon learning the truth about his birth, abandoned SHINRA and started to wage war on them. Angeal eventually joined him on learning the truth as well. Angeal's degregation was so bad, that he ended up forcing his student, Zack, to kill him.
So Sephiroth watched the only two friends he had leave him, without knowing why. He was ordered by SHINRA to hunt them down and kill them (Though also a plan by Hojo to see what would happen if he was near Jenova). The mission to Nibelheim was actually a mission to find/kill Genisis, though the troopers didn't know that. And here's the kicker, when they found him, it was GENISIS who told him of the experiments and that he was project S!
Yeah, Sephiroth was raised in a lab, isolated from the world, abandoned by his only friends, was forced to try and kill them, and found out that he wasn't even technically human. Then, spent three days reading about all the experiments that were done to him, and that the one who had done all this to him, Hojo, was in fact his father.
Honestly, it's no wonder he went completely insane.
This reminds me of the Dark Knight when Two-Face asks why the Joker chose him, to which Batman replied, "Because you were the best of us. He wanted to prove that someone as good as you can fall."
And did you know aerith was originally supposed to be sephiroths half sister?
Here's one idea for a list: Top 10 heroes brought back from the brink. I'm talking heroes in gaming that nearly became what they sought to destroy. A hero seeking to fight the beasts, but becomes a beast to do so and nearly falls into the abyss.
I say this because these tend to be my favorite heroes: those that still try to do good despite becoming the thing they hate, like Guts. He commits to killing these Apostles because of how Evil he knows then to he, while becoming so blind to his evil and monstrous actions. Abd only by accepting others to be around him and to become close does he pull back from the Abyss
Dimitri from Fire Emblem Three Houses is a great contender for that
Susie from Deltarune? If she killed Lancer, we would've had a Weird Route long before Chapter 2.
After thinking further, Shadow would be a good fit. He wanted to uphold Maria's wish, but because of Gerald's reprogramming, he almost doomed the world by carrying out his revenge plan mistakenly. However, at the end of the game, Amy reminds him of Maria's real wish, and he sacrifices himself to get the job done.
@@psychie8625 Well, even if that game _wasn't_ still a work in progress... she didn't start out as much of a hero. Her "brink" wasn't too far from where she started, and the "pull back" happened about two minutes after the "push in". But it could lead to a more genuine example down the line.
I think Magus from _Chrono Trigger_ might be a better example.
Obito Uchiha from the Naruto series. The 4th Ultimate Ninja Storm game reflected his story pretty well.
I think Zero from mega man X could count since he is only good cause sigma beat him and got infected by the Virus that almost made Zero evil but made Sigma evil instead
I love how in the remake, Oersted's final lines in his victory ending are "Believe... BELIEVE!"
Even as the Demon King, he just wanted someone out there to believe in him again.
Thing about Sephiroth is that his upbringing primed him to have a God complex. You would develop one if your whole life was a reminder of your otherness and potential superiority in ability.
Nibelheim wasn't the instigating event, it was the tipping point. Sure, he had all of those good qualities pre-Nibelheim, but, as Tifa herself noted, Sephiroth seemed cold and aloof. Sephiroth's former humanity only showed itself to his fellow SOLDIERs.
Actually, Genesis and Angeal were probably his first sense of normalcy, as he had friends he could connect to. But they also ended up pushing him further into the isolation that primed his God complex.
Not a fan of Genesis' further role into his slip into madness when he shows up at Nibelheim, but it's personally negligible.
And all of this is to highlight the parallel with Cloud, whose whole life was as a constant failure, perceived or real.
He's no Kefka in terms of scale, I won't deny that, but then again, besides being the ultimate example of Shinra's hubris, thereby tying their fates together, the beauty in Sephiroth's villainy is that he's the metaphor for every dark voice in your mind, especially during your depressive episodes. He's the voice that tells you that you can do no right, you're worthless, that you should give up.
At least Cloud can physically beat up his depression and anxiety. Wish we all could.
But it's that same God complex that makes him spend all his remaining energies tormenting Cloud. How could this mere originally powerless grunt overpower him and defeat him when so many much stronger warriors failed? And then how does he get beaten by this same grunt that he tried to make into a pawn of his again? And again? And again?
It happened with Asriel, in Undertale, too, what it with characters with white hair.
With Siegfried, he was losing his mind over the fact that he murdered his father so of course he would go after a sword like Soul Edge. I'm fine with him being an honorable mention, though, since he would fit better in the redeemed heroes category, as he did manage to defeat Soul Edge with Soul Calibur and reformed his mercenary band to use them to fight against the malfested that remained.
I actually remember my first time playing Berseria after hearing an anime phoenix girl gush about the Tales series and actually having the very same feelings Josh said about him in this video
"You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!"
Translation: "No, you can't actually bring balance! You have to complete our complacent, morally bankrupt monopoly!"
I disagree on something, Joel stopping the Fireflies form killing the only person inmune to the fungus was a good call. We're talking about a group known for causing chaos, destroying a city and leave its population to fend themselves (and turning into horrible criminals) and even thought the best solution to make a cure was killing the kid.
Never trust terrorist, especially when they think that murder is ok "for the cause".
the thing is even accounting that joel was still in the right we have no idea if they could of made a cure by killing ellie they where willing to doom humanity by killing their best shot at a cure in the first minute of getting her so in the end joel was really in the right only wrong thing he did was kill innocent doctors to save her
like if they really wanted to make a cure they should of tested a few things like since ellie is infected with a mutated form of the Cordyceps virus that does not seem to turn her into a normal infected why not see if biting someone spreads this special form of cordyceps or any other test before going right for the cut open the kid option
Josh has a vendetta agaisnt grey morality, is not worth discussing it.
@@massgunner4152 But Joel's choice isn't Grey morality, is common sense and escrutinizing the fireflies and their decision.
There is a difference between Grey morality and the lesser of evils, that moment of The Last of Us was the latter.
@@massgunner4152 Is that true? If so, why does he?
Cool video as always, Josh! I would like to put in my own honourable mention: Jetstream Sam from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance.
His dad owned a dojo in Brazil, but he was killed by one of his students and a drug cartel. Sam left to train, then returned to kill the student and he took down the entire cartel. He would then become known throughout Brazil as Minuano, the cool winds of Brazil.
He then left Brazil and travelled the world, dispensing justice wherever he went. One day, he decided to aim higher and went after World Marshal, the world's largest PMC. But they anticipated his arrival and he was defeated by their leader, Senator Steven Armstrong, who fatally injured his sword arm and promptly recruited him. Sam's ideals were broken, as no matter how many bad guys he took down, more would replace them and carry on like usual.
2 years later, now working for World Marshal with a new cyborg arm, he met Raiden, who was a lot like his former ideal self. He DOES NOT like him because of this and cuts his eye and his arm off. However, as the game progresses and as Raiden refuses to back down, Sam starts having doubts. On the day of World Marshal's master plan to bring about WWIII, he decides to duel Raiden to the death to decide whose ideals were right... and he loses.
Right before his death, he tells Blade Wolf that, should he win, the master plan will take place like usual, but, should he lose, he tells him to take his family sword. That sword becomes crucial in helping Raiden do what Sam could not: defeat Senator Armstrong once and for all. He could not save the world by himself, so he gave the only man capable the means to do so from beyond the grave.
Gabriel Belmont from Castlevania: Lords of Shadow series. Here’s a man who goes on a quest to bring back the love of his life, ends up going against Lucifer himself, won that fight and ends up becoming Dracula. The man suffered a lot and most of what he did ended up saving the world, but it ended with him becoming the most famous vampire in the world.
"You're the playable character. you're the hero. So everything you do is for the greater good, right?"
That quote made me think of the Knight from _Moon RPG._ He's not deep enough to call an honorable mention, but... oh man, the perspective flip is jarring.
Honorable Mentions:
*Maligula - Psychonauts 2
-She was never a person, she was the fight or flight response gone to drastic measures after Lucy's time in the astralathe, a machine designed to access untapped parts of the brain. When war was brewing in Lucy's home country of Grulovia, she felt she could use her hydrokinesis to turn the tide. It worked, and she was made the new war administer. Unfortunately, during a protest that refused to be quelled (even in a rainstorm) Lucy broke a dam and flooded the place, drowning everyone, including her own sister. Lucy snapped and she was no more, now, she was Maligula, The Deluge of Grulovia.
*Ophelia - Brutal Legend
-We were never tricked into thinking that Ophelia was Succoria, a spy for Emporer Doviculous, we just took it out of context! It turns out Succoria is actually an old demon lord before Doviculous seized power. Oh, and it also turns out she was EDDIE'S MOTHER! So all that stuff Doviculous said at Lionwhyte's about Succoria's mission, he wasn't referring to Ophelia, he was talking about Succoria's kin, her descendant, Eddie.
Anywho, this misunderstanding and falling out leads to Ophelia drowning in the Sea of Black Tears, becoming Dark Ophelia (AND THIS IS WHAT DOVICULOUS WANTED, To set man against man, to let the resistance destroy itself again). As for when we dive in and find Ophelia's body at the bottom of said sea, y'know, I'll let this line from Kingdom Hearts 2 sum up my thoughts.
"You mean, we went through all that trouble to defeat an imposter?!"
*Dr. Takuto Maruki - Persona 5 Royal
-After acquiring his persona, Azathoth, he plans on creating the ideal world for everyone. Because if he can't ease his own suffering, he can at least help other people overcome theirs. He IS doing this for a just motive, but he had the wrong idea of going about it.
*Kratos - God of War Series
-Oh how one bad day and one betrayal can unleash a rage thay can only be quelled by killing the greek pantheon.
*Artorias - Dark Souls
-Those that succumb to the abyss shall be consumed by it.
Also Jetstream Sam from Metal Gear Rising Revengeance. In the DLC, we see a noble warrior righting wrongs accross the world, only to be bested and recruited by Armstrong...
I was just thinking about Maruki as well. He really does start off with a noble goal til his love fell victim to an attack. Leaving her traumatized. Maruki 'saved' her when he awakened to his persona which started him on the wrong path...
The MLP episode "The Cutie Pox" gives a possible explanation for why the townsponies from _Story of the Blanks_ killed Ruby when she got her cutie mark; maybe they thought the cutie pox was breaking out.
@@pierre-mariecaulliez6285 Big Boss Is Far Bigger than Jetstream Sam if not a bit convoluted
My honorable mentions aside from the latter:
Vergil - Devil May Cry series
Baldur - Bayonetta series
Kal'Thas Sunstrider - World of Warcraft(aside from Arthas)
Terra - Kingdom Hearts series(aside from Xehanort)
Big Boss - Metal Gear series
Susie - Kirby Planet Robobot
Dimitri Maxanoff and Donovan - Darkstalkers series
Dame Dedtime and Zazel - Yo-Kai Watch 2 and 3(aside from Enma)
Adachi - Persona 4(aside from Maruki)
Tsugumi Matsunae - NEO: The World Ends With You
Berkut - Fire Emblem Gaiden/Echoes Shadows of Valencia(OG and Remake count)
Edelgard & Rhea - Fire Emblem Three Houses(whether you take the Blue Lions or Golden Deer route for the former, or the Black Eagles/Crimson Flower routes for the latter, that includes the Ashen Wolves route as paid expansion DLC)
I already have a couple guesses on who's gonna be on here. Sephiroth is kinda obvious I think. King Logan from Fable 3.
Now in the game, he's never seen as at any point as a benevolent ruler, but it is hinted that he used to be. In Fable lore, he really was a fair and benevolent ruler, until he went to Aurora, where he encountered the Crawler and was saved by Kalin and her people. He promised to return with an army to wipe out the Darkness, but he was visited by Theresa, who then told him that the Darkness is coming to Albion and he cannot stop it. All he can do is prepare for its arrival.
The rest of that conversation is up for speculation, which I would speculate that Theresa mentioned that a Hero must sit the throne in order to successfully defeat the Darkness. Logan was no Hero. So while he could have bought every property in Albion and be good financially while remaining as a good ruler, there would be no reason for a revolution, and the Hero would have no reason to overthrow him. So Logan had to become a tyrant to not only build his army in case the darkness arrives before a Hero can overthrow him, but also to give the Hero a reason to overthrow him.
Now, Logan is no Hero, at least not in Fable terms, but he was praised by his people before his trip to Aurora. Then after that, he fell (or sacrificed himself) and became a tyrant in an effort to save his people. So I would consider him a Fallen Hero, but one who became as such for a good reason.
King Logan was not included. Kinda disappointed as I feel like he doesn't get enough recognition. Oh well, maybe if there was a countdown for Living Self-Sacrifices or something like that, he'd probably end up on that one.
Darth Revan could be considered another candidate for that list, if you played KotOR 2 where Kreia mentions that Revan became the Sith ruler to try to prevent greater evil from rising and that he did not actually fall to the dark side. He never wanted to destroy the Republic. In fact, he wanted it intact and went after leaders who he felt would destabilize the Republic if kept unchecked. And at every Republic planet he went after, he used diplomacy first. Kreia also mentions that there's a blurred line between a fall and a self-sacrifice and that Revan understood this line better than anyone.
As for who else could be a candidate in that potential countdown, I'm not sure. Ardyn Izunia from Final Fantasy XV I think would have been a good fit for Fallen Heroes, because he was a healer of the people and was benelovent. His brother on the other hand was ruthless and killed and burned anyone he even suspects might be infected with this scourge that is plaguing the land. When Ardyn was told that he was chosen to sit the throne and become the King of Light, his brother, Somnus, betrayed him upon arrival and tried to kill him. Ardyn's love interest was killed for trying to interfere, which triggered the darkness that Ardyn has been absorbing to heal the infected. But due to this, he was then rejected by the gods and was "killed" by Somnus and locked away at Angelgard. Fast forward a millenia or two and Ardyn is found by the Niflheim Empire. Ardyn is uninterested in their motives at first until he receives knowledge from Ifrit and has a sort of hallucination of his love interest and Somnus, which then drives him mad, leading him to swear vengeance on Somnus's entire bloodline. In a battle with Somnus's gigantic form (because normal size is lame apparently), Somnus admits his jealousy to Ardyn's power and popularity. And when Somnus is defeated, he tells Ardyn that he was only fulfilling his calling and that he never wanted any of this for Ardyn. He doesn't ask for forgiveness from Ardyn, only for understanding. When Ardyn tries to kill the king of Lucis in that era, he is stopped by Bahamut who tells him his fate, that he will spread darkness throughout the world and be defeated by the chosen king. But in that process, the chosen king will die as well, granting Ardyn not only the death he wished for after being betrayed and stripped of everything dear to him, but also the vengeance he craved toward Somnus's bloodline. Basically a win-win situation for him. And it doesn't even matter if Ardyn resists or submits to his fate. Ardyn I would definitely say is a fallen hero and a tragic villain.
Any other potential candidates? I have no idea. King Logan and Darth Revan are the only ones I could think of for Living Self-Sacrifices. Ardyn I think should have at least gotten an honorable mention in Fallen Heroes. And King Logan. Overall though, good video.
good ones.
My first thought before starting this video was: ''well, arthas is probably gonna be #1''.
I wasn't wrong XD
Yeah, I can see why he would be. For the purging of Stratholme (however it's spelled), could he have found another way? Yes, if he had time. He felt he had no time to find another way and that something needed to be done right then and there. So yeah, it was out of desperation, and he felt that his people were better off dying a quick death than suffering as undead slaves. It was a series of unfortunate circumstances that led him to becoming the Lich King. Also gotta consider the Lich King and Arthas as two different psyches. Arthas basically became trapped within himself when he took up Frostmourne.
To put a hero on the throne, all he had to do was find one and abdicate to that hero.
So watching this a few hours after its premier, and I gotta say
(SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T WATCHED IT. DO NOT READ ON IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.)
Oersted being Number 2 was a pleasant surprise. With so many people I know ranking him as THE Fallen Hero in conversations, it's easy to forget that there were more (aside from Sephiroth, of course, but I wasn't really a fan of FF7, as it didn't really "click" for me) of the trope. And seeing his story with my own eyes was amazing, as I do have Live A Live and the demo of its remake. I remember watching with my mouth wide open like a (as the female Robin from Fire Emblem Awakening once said) slack-jawed village idiot as I saw Oersted forsake his role as the hero and embrace a role as a villain. And hooooo BOY was it satisfying to bring him down in the final chapter. I honestly wasn't sure who was gonna be number one (Arthas makes sense from the way you said it, though I'm a bit too lazy to change his name's spelling if I did misspell it), but still. Seeing Oersted at Number 2 is pretty nice (coming from a big Live-A-Live fan lol)
Would love to see a top 10 video game
Betrayals or a obvious surprise villain
Woah woah WOAH.
If you think critically about it, Brad and Joel were RIGHT.
Why is Joel right? The fireflies were going to murder Ellie without her consent on the *possibility* they could reverse engineer a cure for the zombie plague. 3 things:
1: You can’t vaccinate against a fungal infection
2: Look at the Fireflies’ base. It’s *filthy* and underequiped. They would likely fail to make a cure, and even if they did…
3: What about distribution? The Fireflies are terrorists. The game begins with them bombing a safe zone. Are we expected to believe they would genuinely give out the cure to everybody and not use it for a power play? And even if we assume that? How the hell would they do it? It took Joel and Ellie a year to make it across country.
Why is Brad right?
On top of what you said about Olathe being a hellhole no child should have to live in, BUDDY IS ONE GIRL. HUMANITY HAS NO HOPE OF REPOPULATING WITH ONE WOMAN. The inbreeding would kill any viable offspring in a couple generations.
Furthermore, Brad’s actions towards the end of the game aren’t entirely his fault. Buzzo forces him to overdose on Joy, which begins his mutation that clouds his rational thought.
Even Buzzo admits Brad wasn’t a bad guy towards the end of Joyful.
True, one can *play* Brad as a rough piece of work, but many of his worst actions are either Buzzo’s fault or player-determined.
THANK YOU. Can’t believe Josh never caught on about Joel.
@@matthewmagnani2915 For real. In fairness, when I first played TLOU in high school, I thought Joel made the wrong choice, too, until I revisited it a few years later and watched some videos on the subject.
Benefit of the doubt, maybe Josh also only played the game once and didn’t think too hard about it?
As for Brad, he definitely hasn’t thought too deeply about the game. He doesn’t even mention Buzzo, his influence, or the events of Joyful proving his worries right.
@@matthewmagnani2915 Ellie was not the only one immune to the fungus. She's just the last one alive because the fireflies KILLLED EVERYONE ELSE.
Also, he acts as though Joel was portrayed as a 100% hero, and that he completely changed character during the ending. I guess the ending just stood out so much, it made him forget about the rest of the game.
To be fair, he's only #10 on the list. And I think the greater point is that Brad would've opposed the _best_ circumstances for letting her daughter repopulate the world to what extent she could. Or even letting her make that choice.
Damn, all that extreme humiliation Sephiroth had to deal with as a child, no wonder he's gone power crazy. So power crazy, it made him want to become a god.
I'm honestly really happy Jin was included on this list. Ever since I first played Xenoblade 2, I've really loved him as a villain. (hell, I even made a 20 minute video talking about him as a villain and his redemption for NandovMovies's One Villainous Scene collab) Learning about Jin's fall throughout the story from the snippets we end up seeing makes him a very interesting and sympathetic character, and one of my personal favorite villains in a video game. God, Xenoblade is so good!!
Either way, great video, Josh!
I personally think Berseria, especially Artorius and Velvet, are good examples of, of all things, SMT Law and Chaos. Artorius in particular does a better job of being a Law rep than actual Law reps.
Also, think Josh underplayed the “getting rid of free will” thing, since Artorius has a legitimate reason for doing that. His ultimate goal is just to end the threat of Daemons, but the force that turns people into Daemons, known as Malevolence, is essentially darkness of the heart as a mystic force. Short version, Artorius had every reason to believe that the only way to save the world from Daemons, was to eradicate free will so no more would be created.
It's a common driving force for Fallen Hero villains in Tales games where the setting has some kind of supernatural mechanic inherent to it that causes suffering (in this case 'if humans get too emotional they turn into Daemons which spreads more grief and more Daemons'), and the villain is willing to commit heinous acts in order to destroy or shut down that unfair mechanic. See also: Master Van in Tales of the Abyss.
@@WhiteFangofWar Oh, absolutely see Master Van. One of many reasons Abyss is generally considered one of the best Tales games.
of course ridding humanity of emotions mean they basically jsut become empty husks who slowly die because they have no reason to do anything as theey lack the emotions needed to do anything so his whle scheme would be rendered moot.
It’s just like Harvey Dent said in The Dark Knight: “You either die a hero, or live long enough to seen yourself become a villain.” And these “fallen” heroes are complete proof of that.
The best part of Jin in XC2 though is how both him and Malos reflect eachother. Jin is neutral evil, as you said, and only kills people for the sake of his goals. Whereas Malos is chaotic evil, reveling in death and destruction for the sake of it. This is because Malos is Amalthus’s driver, and as a result his hatred and apathy for humanity got carried over to him in the process. Instead of Jin, who’s hatred stems from losing the person he loved most, Malos’s behavior has been with him since the day he was born and he had no control over it, making him almost like a maladjusted child with a negligent parent. That is, if the child was powerful enough to destroy the world.
It’s why despite the two formerly being enemies during the Aegis War, Jin was willing to ally himself with Malos if it meant avenging Lora and making humanity pay. Since without Lora, he basically had no purpose, and it’s almost as if Malos gave him one by reaching out to him. Unlike Malos, who has a purpose, but unlike Jin never got to decide it for himself.
It really just goes to show how amazing and interesting XC2’s villains are, and I’m hoping XC3 will manage to live up to them.
It's also worth Noting Malus seemed genuinely sad at the idea of Jin Dying.
@@ShadowWolfRising And at the end he even refers to himself as "A hideous monster, far beyond saving", which I always interpreted as a cry for help, as if Malos actually *wanted* you to defeat him, and that deep down, he just wanted to have lived life the way Pneuma got to alongside Rex and the rest of the party.
"Tamper with the deepest mysteries -- the source of life, the essence of self -- only if prepared for consequences of the most extreme and dangerous kind." -- Adalbert Waffling's First Fundamental Law of Magic in _Harry Potter_
7:20 That scene, that freaking scene, is enough to wrench the guts of even the bravest of men. And that was all before he turned into a literal monster.
I still say that while awful, culling of Stratholme was the best of the bad options. Everyone is infected and they only have hours before they turn into enemy troops. Nowhere near enough time to find a cure for the plague. I mean at that point Arthas had 2 options.
1) Let the city turn, everyone dies and becomes part of Mal'ganis' army used to kill more people
2) Purge the city, everyone dies but stays dead
It can still wear away at your conscience, force you to get mean and ignore the humanity of those you slaughter.
That’s my reasoning for Arthas’s uncharacteristic rage during that one scene.
And boom most of his kingdom was infested with undead not too long after. Great job.
@@justinb7494 BECAUSE HE HIMSELF INFECTED IT, YOU MORON! You really thought you had a "gotcha" with that, didn't you? So simple.
Personally, Mass Effect has a pretty good fallen heroes with the Illusive Man and Saren Arterius.
The Later was once the greatest Specter of the Council, saving many down the road yet not perfect for his judgement of humanity showed he was still sourer of the First Contact War. He found the Reaper known as Sovereign who slowly turned him into a monster, telling him that the reapers would need some creatures to maintain them, (WHich was a lie) and he slowly lost himself along the way. If taking the Penragon route, you can talk to the remnants of himself and even get him to shoot himself, saying he's sorry for ever listening to the Reaper.
As for the former, he lead the Cerberus organization, a human supremacist who is a major ally in the second game, looking into the disappearances of human colonies and even brought back Shepard, who was dead, in every way possible. He worked to fight against the reapers and stop them. But his real personality came out with him experimenting on people and having a put every other race below humans. It was clear he did want to save humanity, but the way he went about it was wrong.
The problem with both is that they became villains because they were indoctrinated, so their actions weren't of their own choices.
@@timemonkey That is true, but it has shown those with stronger wills, like Shepard, can fight it and there was remints of their old selves in their final moments.
@@JaxonHex Shepard never fought indoctrincation. There's no escaping it, indoctrination literally alters your brain, it's permanent and the best you can manage is a temporary breakthrough.
@@timemonkey Yes he did, in three with the kid, the reapers were using the thought of him losing a young boy to weaken his will. That was the whole point of him seeing that young boy in the first half hour of the game, and the dreams where filled with the noise of the reaper's, showing that they will weakening his mind, but his will has plus the becan made it harder then most humans.
@@JaxonHex No, that's a bullshit fantheory that doesn't make any sense. Indoctrination requires weeks of exposure to unshielded Reaper tech, Shepard hasn't spent anywhere close to enough time around it for them to be able to influence Shepard at all. The kid and the dreams were supposed to be symbolic of the guilt Shepard feels over those lost to the Reapers, and the increasing stress they feel as the number increases and the more pressure is put on them.
Hell, the VI on Thessia can detect indoctrinated people and that is only triggered by Kai leng's pressence, not Shepards.
you know, the only reason Artorius turned out this way, during the events of Tales of Berseria, is because of Melchior Mavin, he orchestrated the events that happened the night Celica died, so he's not just a fallen hero, but a puppet on strings too.
Kay so...WHAT THE HELL WAS NUMBER 2?!?! THAT WAS FREAKING TRAUMATIZING!! THAT WAS SO MESSED UP!!
I didn't knew LiveAlive was THAT dark! But it's a JRPG WHAT WAS I EXPCETING!?!?!?!
Yeah, I knew Live a live would need to be on the list. When you feel more sympathy for the demon lord than his backstabbing friend…
Okay. Go play the remake to experience it yourself, coming soon in a week. You won't regret it.
I still think Oersted is more of a fallen hero than Arthas. Arthas was mislead and his fall was planned by Ner`Zhul. With Oersted however it isn`t that simple. It was Oersted who at the end consciously made the choice to became Odio. Oersted could simply have followed Hashs example and just go far away into hiding, vowing to never help anyone again.
Artorius was actually her brother in law at the beginning, and of all villains in gaming, probably the one most people can most easily agree with, either him or Maruki.
Also, I'm impressed you've played Live a Live. I guess this week is the last time I'll be able to say that about a westerner lol
I will mention someone from a series Josh probably never played: High Chanceler Giliath Osborne, The Iron and Blood Chanceler from the Kiseki Series, AKA the Legends of heroes: Trails of series
Yeah The Former Emperor Dreichels who was regaled as a hero across Erebonia, then was reborn as Giliath Osborne and fell in love and had a son. Only for some scumbags to attack his home, kill his wife, and mortally wound his son. What's a man to do? He calls out to anyone, god or devil, to at least save his son.
@@deathbykonami5487 and he pretends to become a monster in order to stop the greater evil, at the cost of making some messed up stuff
Oh, yeah. I probably should've mentioned him too.
While playing Live A Live (the remake), Odio became one of my favorite video game villains
I will mention one. Malestaire Drake from Wizard101. Once a noble and fair professor of Death magic in The Spiral to someone who desires to do the forbidden and summon the undead to bring his dead wife, Sylvia Drake back to the living.
Yo what the fuck were they on it’s literally a baby’s first mmo.
Ari: let's not forget honey we know who would go first."
Josh: yeah we know that
Me: *after saying hold my beer* well shit she's got us there.
ari dropping truth bombs..........sorry josh.
YO!!! This was something I suggested on the video, Top 10 Failed Heroes! :D Don't know if my suggestion was what made it or if Josh had plans for this already but this is still dope to see!
Like I said in a reply. I think Maruki from Persona 5 Royal could make this list. He started as a good man. Had things going good in his life til the fateful day of the robbery. Leaving Rumi completely traumatized. Only then he started on his path to make the world a better place. He would be very low on the list since he does make it up. But the things he went through just to go that far.
Obi-Wan: You’ve become the very thing you swore to destroy!
Hey, Editor! I want to say this... I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT PENELOPE IN SLY 4. And ANYBODY who thinks the twist works will get a punch to the face and a ten minute clear and concise discourse as to WHY it makes more sense to lambast the moron who wrote that nonsense.
And you know what makes me even more pissed that they could have saved it by simply saying she was been control by the elefant with actual mind controlling abilities, just think about pepelepiu Evil cousin captures Penélope and miss decibel bends his mind to help him by putting that stupid idea on his head; gives an ok ooooooooh moment, doesn't affect Bentley's development and generates a sense of revenge against decibel and le paradox because what's more Evil that destroy your families legacy that make one of your friends do it with you
@@alvarodebarrio7718 YES, EXACTLY! If they put the whole Brainwashing idea, it would have CERTAINLY made the story better! But instead... The idiot who wrote the story thought "Let's make her evil because she loves Da Moola and doesn't get why Bentley wouldn't use his genius to gain more moolah!" (Moolah is Glukkon-talk for Money, FYI.) And to that writer, I say... BECAUSE BENTLEY IS A FRIEND OF SLY SINCE CHILDHOOD, and would rather use his mind to help his friend achieve heists over doing something that runs counter to his beliefs! SOMETHING THAT PENELOPE KNEW AS WELL IN SLY 3! And what are we left with now? A good character that became evil due to... trading her brain for a banana. As the Japanese game host in UHF would say to her:
STUPID!!! YOU'RE SO STUPIIIIIIID!!!
This is one of the reasons why I pretend that sly 4 doesn’t exist the other reasons being sly 3 ended beautifully and it’s a freaking cliffhanger ending
@@alvarodebarrio7718 Dude... that would've been genius! Maybe we could just pretend that was the case, and that the game did a terrible job of explaining as much.
@@alvarodebarrio7718 yeah especially since the woman's mind control pwoers aren't really brought up ever again after her introduction.
Has Josh done "Top 10 Redeemed Villains" yet? A part of me thinks he has, and a part of me thinks he hasn't. If he hasn't, that would be a good follow-up. The opposite of a fallen hero is a redeemed villain.
Edit: Okay, he already did a video on that. Ignore me.
No, I won't ignore you.
In my opinion, Sephiroth was never really a hero. The guy might have started out as just a simple super soldier that wanted to bring some semblance of peace to Midgar, but as soon as the maniac realized he was Jenova’s “offspring” Sephiroth was willing to just turn into a genocidal killing machine that was fully willing to abandon all of past life and destroy the planet in order to purify it for him and his “mother.”
Is it crazy to say that Sephy was literally just JENOVA's sleeper agent? Literally the moment a dna trigger happened, it was flipped switch.
Even in his 'heroic' phase he was working for Shinra, likely deliberately sent on high-profile missions to impress civilians and make more people want to join SOLDIER. He's working for bad guys who grew him in a lab and give him amazing PR to make him look like an awesome hero for people to idolize. Sort of like Homelander?
Yep, I always assumed FF7 was going for the more "traditional" definition of hero, as in a person who accomplishes great feats and achievements, but not necessarily with the greatest of intentions. From what little we've seen of Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim, he seems to have just wanted to fulfill his role as a super soldier cos that was all he knew, and he happened to be really good at it.
In fact, it might be part of the reason why Sephiroth reacted the way he did; because he never really had a moral code, ideals or particularly strong reasons to fight like Zack and Angeal did, so he really had nothing to fall back on when his previous identity got challenged and taken out from under him like it did.
In my opinion, Sephiroth used to be the most powerful of all good guys. He was filled with wisdom, power, integrity, elegance, friendship, and beauty, although he was somewhat aloof. He was a loyal, empathetic friend to his coworkers and friends. Until inquiries were found in him. Sephiroth is the true definition of a fallen angel, figuratively speaking.
Jin,& Sephi’s in the list & Siegfried’s Honorable mention you made my day.honestly I thought Sigma from Megaman X was gonna end up on the list or honorable mentions due to him being on the number intros.
or X himself in Mega Man Zero.
@@UltimateGamerCC Except that wasn't X. Copy X is a separate character.
Another factor that complicates Artorius' motivations is that, due to the way the world of Berseria works (that excessive levels of negative emotions can cause people, and even plants or animals, to turn into vicious monsters), he's not technically wrong in his beliefs in that emotions could be a devastating burden, he just went about handling the issue in some of the worst ways possible (not helped by some toxic influence from a older friend of his mentor).
(Edited for grammer).
The description of his goals reminds me of the Cybermen.
@@KororaPenguin The modern ones, maybe. The original Cybermen, from what I remember, turned themselves into cyborgs out of necessity but then developed a Borg-esque goal to turn everyone into cyborgs like themselves, mostly cause "why not?". Granted I'm far from the best Who-vian scholar, so someone can probably correct me on that.
@@hellheart1000
I favor Classic Who over New Who, and was thinking of the Doctor's exchange with the Cybermen in "The Tenth Planet".
Honestly sounds like a terrible world. You mean if you stubbed your toe and shouted “AGH F#%@ MY TOE” you might turn into a demon? I joke of course, but Berseria’s world always struck me as one that was fundamentally unsustainable
Other good choices
Kevin Kaslana (Honkai Impact 3rd)
Karen Travers (Scarlet Nexus)
Tatiana Quartz (No Straight Roads)
George Newbern and Tyler Hoechlin? It funny knowing that Sephiroth, one of gaming's most important villains, shares his voice with Superman.
Love what you did for #9! Put the blame on us!
Also, I originally thought this was a reupload of the Failed Heroes video. Took me a bit to realize that this was something different all together.
I just played the Live A Live remake and that twist was something else.
I knew nothing about Oersted or Live a Live. But the story did compel me.
I shall retrieve it forthwith!!!
Every fallen hero: I'm the good guy here.
Everyone else: Yeah. I lot of bad guys say that.
"bro you k1ll3d several other species and turned the world into a h3llscape YOU ARE THE BAD GUY!"
"or are you just weak?!"
"nope definitely you are the bad guy"
"I had good intentions. We both know which road is paved with those." -- Mussolini, in Niven and Pournelle's _Inferno_
That line comes directly from an _Owl House_ episode. Between Jacob and Camilla, I believe.
@@kylestubbs8867 yep
i am so glad you mentioned oersted
i knew of him thanks to the video you mentioned AND experienced it for myself on the switch.
watching this video I kept thinking about him so i was overjoyed to hear him get a spot.
This whole video sorely needed a spoiler warning (not that I care but I did notice there was none at the start)
Big props on the whoisthisgit shout-out tho.
I didn't know Josh was a Xenoblade fan. I wonder if he got into it through Chuggaaconroy like I did.
I hope it means there's going to be Xenoblade Top 10s in the future. I want to see a Rare Blades ranking like his ranking of TF2 characters.
@@Yojimbo16 Never mind that. I want to see a Top 10 Xenoblade bosses.
@@AzureMoebius22 That too
It’s been so long since I’ve seen this channel. Probably years! I’m glad to see Josh is doing well. I hope he continues to create content he enjoys.
As far as fallen heroes or sympathetic villains go, Happy Chaos from Guilty Gear Strive is by far the most interesting take I've seen. The man is a master manipulator, pulling all the strings to cause bedlam and destruction for a reason that seems impossible to pin down, but then you remember: he was once the greatest scientific mind in the world, helped age humanity past technology and into the age of magic, and did so much to protect humanity from his own misguided creations. He's basically been left to fester and go insane, but his motives for doing so many bad things is still interesting, since he does it so people appreciate life more. You never really know how beautiful something is until it's gone forever, and he seeks to show that to the whole world in the most grandiose way possible, and it's some really fascinating stuff.
Now if only he wasn't such a bully in actual gameplay...
Oh, so Saw but with dual pistols.
@@jarahknuckey9064 That's one way to put it, yeah. Lol
@@colindoesmusic8456 Sorry for putting it so bluntly and so... unceremoniously. I generally adore GGST's soundtrack, but don't give a fuck about the story. My boyfriend introduced me to the OST.
@@jarahknuckey9064 Yeah the story is a mess to follow even for someone versed in it like me, I’m more in it for the gameplay and music
Seeing Jin from XC2 on this list...
A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.
Personally, I want to shout out Raphael and Maxi from the Soulcalibur series.
Over the course of the games, Raphael's goal to protect his adopted daughter Amy slowly twists into a desire to kill or forcibly assimilate everyone who doesn't fit his vision for the "perfect" future. It's a heartbreaking fall, made all the sadder by the fact that Amy didn't want this; She just wanted a happy life with her father who so selflessly took her in.
Meanwhile, Maxi was selfish from day one. He has all the warning signs of a vengeance-fuelled man, seeking power for his own selfish goals. Even after he revenge-kills the golem Astaroth, no powerful demon sword necessary, the moment he hears rumours of Astaroth's return, he goes right back to searching for Soul Edge to kill Astaroth with it, and this leads him to become corrupted by it to the horror of his friends in almost all of his arcade mode endings.
There, now you guys can stop complaining about Josh not talking about Oersted lol
Oof. Lots of Live a Live fans I see.
I feel the next countdown should be Pure villains. Like people who are just bad and crazy for the sake of being bad and crazy.
M. Bison would totally make the list.
He kind of already did that. Check out his “Evil Villains” list
Most Theatrical Villains. Or 'Camp' if you want to be mean.
16:36
Reminder that this is Jin putting Haze out of her misery. Someone who he shared a Driver with. Someone who he couldn’t save. Someone who was left behind for 500 years. Not that he had a choice in the matter.
Can you do the "Final _Exam_ Bosses"? They require you to use just about everything you learned in the game to win. Examples include:
Moon Bear King from Puppeteer
The Alien from Astro Bot Rescue Mission
God, I miss The Puppeteer. ):
While he is a Super Boss, The Lingering Will from KH2 could count as this. Hell, the pause screen even says something along the lines of "use everything you've learned" or something to that effect.
Armstrong from Metal Gear Rising
@@tootbender6935
Me too! You can’t download it via PS4 unless ypu have PS+ Essentials, which is very annoying when you get normal ps+ and can’t download it!
It’s more like BS+!
Sword Saint Isshin in Sekiro
I was so happy to see who got #1! I hoped he landed anywhere on the list! Great list, dude!
Oursted makes me think of the jokers philosophy of one bad day making even the greatest of men lose himself, although I don't think those thought processes can be related
The philosophy wasn’t intended, but it still holds. Straybow was jealous of Oersted, and wanted him to experience loss for once in his life (whether the regicide thing was his intention or part of the Demon King’s influence is your call). But he never wanted him to lay waste to the timeline.
If he did, you wouldn’t find his spirit in the Mind Dungeon pondering if the whole mess was _his_ fault.
Sir Josh I would like to tell you something. When I watch you videos for the first time I only did it as a pass time....but the more I watch your videos...I grow to love your countdowns and commentary and made me realize something. I relate to you and our opinions in gaming are the same, as a matter in fact I agree with your countdown more than WatchMojo, yes you are that relatable to me. So in thanks I....will Subscribe to you, I know this isn't new for you and this happens to you most of time. I simply hope this puts a smile on your face 😁, just letting you know you are Incredible 👍
28:29
Sigurd: "I believe you owe me an apology."
joshscorcher: "Yeah, I really do!"
Damn if the dude from Lisa is #10, how much darker is this list gonna get?
Thanks for the new Top 10 Josh and remember to go hug your animal friends folks 💙🐱💙
Oersted will gladly show you.
First time watching one of your videos but I'm enjoying it! Reminds me of old school ScrewAttack top 10s and I'm here for it
Someone who is perhaps overlooked in the ranks of Fallen Heroes: Dagoth Ur, from The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind.
Starting out as an understudy to Lord Indoril Nerevar, the uniter of the dark elves, Voryn Dagoth's own noble house Dagoth commits treason when it choses sides with the profane dwarves, whose royal smith seeks to use the heart of the dead god, Lorkhan, to achieve divinity for his people. Unable to persuade the dwarf king, Nerevar goes to war to prevent the smith Kagrenac from achieving his goals. Accompanied by his servant Voryn Dagoth, and the three councilors who urged him to war: Sotha Sil, Vivec and Almalexia. Nerevar slays his old friend the dwarf king, but is grievously injured. Making matters worse, Kagrenac completes his work, strikes the heart and... erases all dwarves from existence.
Realizing the danger these sacreligious tools pose, Nerevar entrusts Dagoth with their safekeeping until he can consult with his three advisors, but here the truth becomes blurry. But the truth that matters to Dagoth is that his three councilors betrayed Nerevar and murdered him to break their oath never to use the tools of Kagrenac to seek godhood for themselves. Dagoth had used the tools on the heart of Lorkhan before then, thus becoming Dagoth Ur. And this allowed him to survive the attempt by Nerevar's treacherous advisors to get rid of him. But they became gods themselves, and deceived the dark elf race that Nerevar had died heroically while they now represented the Tribunal Temple of Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec: Almsivi.
But in the bowels of Red Mountain, Dagoth Ur bided his time. Vivec, one of few beings to achieve Chim, explains it as reaching the enlightened awareness that everything is a dream, and you are part of the dreamer's sleep. Dagoth Ur, in his hubris, achieved anti-Chim; the thought that you are not part of the dream, but he is the dreamer. And so, he replaces reality with his own vision. His egomania has become so great, that the entire universe must be a part of him. And this he will do by resurrecting his fallen sixth house Dagoth as his messengers, and conjuring up the corprus disease. Those living victims of corprus become hideous, cancerous gestalts who are robbed of all thought by bare instinct, but given immunity to aging and other forms of disease, ensuring an eternity of suffering, lashing out in pain at the world. And those who Dagoth Ur deems worthy to be his Sleepers become worse. Their skin and bone atrophy around the face, creating a wide gap as even their brain matter disappears, yet they won't die. A grotesque proboscis grows out of their forehead like a trunk, eventually splitting to form a C'thulu-oid abomination that seeks only to spread the dream and blessing of Dagoth Ur, and the gift of corprus.
His growing legion of mind slaves are to serve Dagoth Ur in his quest to rid Morrowind of his enemies. The Tribunal Temple. The Septim Empire that conquered the land. All 'mongrel' races not of elvish descent, and collaborators who condone tolerance and trade or speak of abolishing slavery. And when that is done, his followers shall spread yet further to extend Dagoth Ur's will across the continent, even the world. It would be an apocalyptic future of genocide and the death of free will. And that would be horrible in itself until you remember that the physical world is not the end. The universe, and all of reality, are under threat from Dagoth Ur's will encroaching slowly but steadily on everything, as he believes is his right as the true dreamer.
And he does all this because he once faithfully served his master Nerevar, and his scheming underlings murdered their lord.
Josh did Arthas more justice than Blizzard in Shadowlands
I personally kind of forgot Shadowlands existed, especially after ads for it suddenly stopped. I do remember some criticism for the DLC, but I never really understood. What did Blizzard fuck up in that DLC? Narrative wise, of course.
They say "Nothing good last forever" but thanks to these 10, I think we can appreciate when the end comes for us, rather than letting immortality corrupt us even more.
All good things must come to an end. Because if they don't end, they eventually stop being good things.
Before this list, I used _The Fairly Oddparents_ to rest my case.
Another example of a fallen hero made by the player's decisions is Elden Ring's protagonist. They are instructed to became the Elden Lord by taking the runes in the hands of the demigods and restoring the Elden Ring. However during the journey multiple characters tries to win them to their side in other to create a new world order and destroy the status quo. Most of these characters are relatable in their motivations, however two of them are the embodiment of evil. Infact many NPCs warn the main character about these two, including Melina who goes as far as to vow to kill your character should they follow a specific evil path. As someone who got all the major endings i can tell you those evil ones can make you feel ashamed of yourself
The "Hojo" that Vincent says in FFVII machina abridged had me laughing too hard
“We’re you having nightmares about HOOOJOOO doing experiments on you, too?”
Ah Lisa, I remember hearing about that when some people made a collab crossover series called The Adventures of Buddy and Chara
In all fairness to Arthas. The Culling of Stratholme was , while horrible, genuenly neccesary.
There is no cure for the Plague of Undeath and ,even if there was, it was impossible to even start treating or quarantining people before the population of Stratholme became a near unstoppable horde that would have swooped across the continent.
Arthas's fall is one of the most tragic stories ever told in a video game because it was inevitable, pre-planned before he was even *born*
I just wanted to say josh thanks for making your youtube channel, I've actually been a subscriber from the days of your top ten FF villains before you went onto employment in the army and I decided to come by and say hello I really hope you're doing well.
Kinda disagree on Arthas being #1, he's more failed than fallen. I mean the Lich King obviously is super evil but Arthas never really had the chance to be a proper hero. He just does some run-of-the-mill paladin stuff killing minions and agents, then by the time the really heavy story starts he's already too broken and desperate because the entire kingdom either let itself fall to negligence or simply never stood a chance.
Warcraft 3 leaves this ambiguous, it's clear they're completely and utterly doomed in the present, it's clear _they_ don't know that yet, but from what we see of their respective forces the Cult of the Damned and Mal'ganis could have been defeated if taken seriously earlier. At the same time nothing really happens before Stratholme to warrant Arthas' particular stance: order Uther, as the strongest paladin by a long shot, to hunt Mal'ganis instead of letting either of those get involved in the purge. Seal the gates and set the entire city on fire. Wait until the people turn using that time to haul more oil/gunpowder and _then_ seal and burn the city. If not a middle ground at least be less villain-hammy about it. Then Frostmourne is explicitly stated to _have taken his soul_ in a fantasy setting where the literal interpretation makes more sense than any metaphorical one, so honestly we can't even pin the rest of his atrocities on Arthas as a person.
So glad you talked about my favorite Villan Jin
I guest the term “tragic villains” kind of fits along the “liked character supposed to be hated” (which Josh already made a video on), I wanted to request a list on either that or “Anti-Heroes,” mostly because I want to see Ragna (or a blazblue rep) on a list.
Seriously when he said “Anime BS” I was begging for blazblue
I thought of a good countdown idea: top 10 games that were worth the wait. games that have long development but thankful were the wait. examples being team fortress 2, Persona 5, omori.
Good idea! Add Breath of the Wild to that list, too! 😊
@@sectorzisnumbuhone - Metroid Dread too.
@@Goleon Yep! :)
With Aiden, there actually wasn't. In the world of Sanctuary containing Diablo within a strong will like his, was literally the only advantage they could gain against the Burning Hells by holding back one of their most cunning prime evils. Leaving Diablo's soulstone out in the open was what allowed him to corrupt the land in the first place.
Whoa… your case for the #2 spot, really makes me want that game. The way you deconstructed that poor soul makes me wanna experience their miserable reality and see what I can do (as everyone else) to try and stop them in their tracks.
It’s how _I_ became interested in the game, for one.
@@kylestubbs8867 Update: I got the game, finished the demo campaigns, and it’s a lot of fun!
*Holy Dolphin Noise!* Two Organ Chourds and I already recognise my introduction to Rock - Mr. Crowley. *This is why I love you Joshy Boi!*
If it wasn't for #5, we would've had two silver haired shirtless anime boys who impaled one of the heroes in the back with a katana and was designed by Tetsuya Nomura back-to-back. I'll be honest, given its absence on many videos, especially top Healers, I didn't have much hope to see Jin, and lo and beyond here he is! Fun fact, Xenoblade 2 borrows heavily from Xenogears (though to be fair, all of Takahashi's Xeno games do) which was originally pitched for Final Fantasy 7. So yes, Jin pretty much is Sephiroth, but with shorter hair and draconic wings rather than angelic ones.
Regarding Undertale, I'm probably one of only a few people who genuinely attempted a genocide route on their first playthrough. Undyne made it very clear that this was a bad idea, but I made sure to go back to finish the job after doing the neutral and pacifist routes. I do not regret it. Chara is still cute, though to be fair I've started to see "cute" as synonymous with "evil," or at least "crazy." I make no promises regarding my own sanity.
Lets make this funnier jin in the Japanese dub shares a voice with cloud if i am correct
you know any time some says Jack was once a hero I always remember that his daughter was locked up by him long before he went bat shit insane, did she kill her own mother by accident? Yes, but that's no excuse to rob your child of a life of their own I argue Jack killed her long before the 2nd group of vault hunter put her down.
as for that Live a Live game HOLY CRAP did life just take a dump on Oersted: married to the princess by beating his friend, friend returns as the demon lord and kidnaps the princess, tricks him into killing the king turning the whole kingdom against him, then to top it all off when he finally does rescue the princess, she basically throws a what took you so long and i love the demon king, now that he's dead I'm out too despite more than likely hearing what the demon king did to the poor guy. despair is the most powerful negative emotion of all it can make a person do the unthinkable because in a despair rotted mind there's nothing left to lose, I can't say Oersted was truly a bad guy he was a man whose entire world crumbled around him with nothing left to return to or anyone to believe in him any longer despair took him and the only thing worth anything in his mind at that point was staring him in the face the throne of the demon king and total destruction.
even as a villain Oersted is portrayed avery sympathetically, even giving th heroes a warning about how a demon king can be created just by a hart full of hate, and before then begging them to kill him for his crimes.
Yeah, I don't think Jack was ever a hero. I feel the point was he COULD have been one if he had stayed true to himself as "John". If he hadn't chosen to lock up his daughter, use her as a tool, and discard everything about his old self in favor of being "Handsome Jack", the "savior of Pandora". His own self-loathing that he turned to extreme narcissism to heal is what prevented him from being a hero.
I have a few ideas for countdowns:
Top Ten Video Game Dream Homes
Top Ten Video Game Weapons
Top Ten Doppelgänger Fights in Video Games
Top Ten Villains to Play as in Video Games
Video Game Dream Homes.
Hmm... The Myst series would offer so many possible entries.
Absolutely love the FF7 Abridged references lol. Always a delight. Definitely a ton of interesting and great characters in this trope.
You may need to see MatPat’s videos in Last of Us, Josh. They show WHY Firefly was actually in the wrong with the plan to rip a chunk out of Ellie’s brain to make a vaccine for *a fungus*
Imagine genuinely believing MatPat as a reliable source for anything. What, is Firefly connected to FNAF and "The Bite of 87?" XDD
Also the game never portrayed Joel as a 'hero'. He never goes out of his way to help strangers unless he got something out of it, or it was in mutual interest. He is untrusting of everyone new he meets, and rightfully so given he fights human's more than he fights zombies. He's just another guy trying to survive in a world that's gone to hell. The doctor brandishing the scalpel to him was in the wrong. Not only was he about to preform life ending surgery on an unconsenting minor in the hopes that they MIGHT be able to create a cure, breaking the oath of 'do no harm', but his dumbass decides brandish a scalpel against some big guy who is armed to the teeth like that isn't going to end well for him.
@@lazaroskarmaniolas7410 that video was less a theory on how the lord works and more the science behind the fungus that was infecting everything. The Cortecept.
@@redphantom6921 never said he was a hero. It was more the fact that Firefly was trying to do something that no doctors do; try to make a vaccine for a fungus when treating a fungus isn’t the same as treating *a virus*
@@lazaroskarmaniolas7410 here’s the video: th-cam.com/video/S5ulX06McSY/w-d-xo.html
I'm surprised that sigma wasn't in this list. He is a BIG fallen hero. He was the leader of the maverick hunters, one of the few S rank hunters, even. It was because he was affected by Wily's virus during his fight with zero that caused him to turn maverick. In fact, not only does that happen, but he himself turns into the cause of death for thousands of reploids and humans, one of the things he fought so hard to protect previously.