Lifeboat Conversion Ep49: Electric? An engine backup plan, if Alan's Bukh diesel fails at sea. [4K]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2022
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EPISODE 49
Engine failure at sea, or even an impact that destroys or disrupts the propeller, rudder, or more, is problem that needs mitigating against. There are many options, from a complete conversion to electric power, a diesel-electric hybrid system, or whole spare engines. In this episode I unveil my preferred choice.
Products mentioned:
Bukh DV48 turbo diesel
Yanmar Dtorque 111 50hp outboard diesel engine
6000W 120KV 6-20S Outrunner Brushless DC Motor, IP68
200gsm woven fibreglass fabric
EC Fibreglass Supplies polyester resin with medium catalyst
Model: NME A/S (Husnes, Norway) 7.5m TELB
Engine: Bukh DV48 turbo diesel
Feel free to ask any questions in the comments!
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Adding a short mast with a modest sail would be a good idea. I’ve heard those lifeboats roll pretty good and having a staysail wouldn’t be an awful idea either. The mast could double as a lookout mast for navigating your way through ice with a high point of view.
If you add a mast you can also hoist up additional solar pannels for extra power far north. I am talking about thin, light and foladable pannels. In high wind you would have to take them down. Plus that array would be mobile for overland use.
@@thx9977 a flexible solarsail...
@@thx9977 thin solar panels have a huge problem with heat dissipation and lose their initial efficiency very quickly
if you add a mast, you gonna need more ballast. which means a heavier boat to push through water and it will change your center of gravity. which also means adding a keel.
@@outlawflyer7868 bilge keels would be also good thing to add to reduce rollng as those life boats are known for it. As for for the ballast consideration, some might be needed but they are also known for being stiff vessels with a relatively high GM to begin with. Also a low standing mast would probably serve best, necessitating less ballasting and lowering of the COG.
Brilliant. I love how everything is always well research before a video and then asking for further suggestions and experiences.
It's an approach that has confused and annoyed people over the years. I'll never be an expert in all matters, but I like to understand roughly how everything works, so I have an idea of what to do if a problem arises.
I agree , i'm always impressed .
I am glad you are considering a plan B for forward motion. Similarly an external outboard engine type thruster, driven by petrol or electricity is a great idea. No additional holes in the hull underwater. Additional functionality should include a grating bolted to the stern for ease of access from the hull so that icy conditions don't add to the hazard, and also access to the auxillary power options.
Alan was designed to give folk the best chance of survival in a desperate situation.
Make the existing propulsion system as reliable as it can be.
If it breaks down, call for help - you're not going to sink...
I enjoy every episode so thanks, regardless of whether the above is of any use 🙂
The boat can still be wrecked, or collided with, so a secondary power source is sensible, especially if I'm installing a reinforced transom and need an electric motor for the inflatable anyhow.
I think you should place one set of oarlocks for every passenger! BTW, I am glad you have your ducks in a row; If there is one thing I hate, its non-linear Anatidae!
Keep it simple seems the best way forward, especially in case of emergency.
I would further explore a diesel outboard, with the minimum HP required, or a equally quick to deploy electric solution.
The video covers this. Diesel outboards are very heavy, very expensive, complex to maintain, and need to be stored upright. Even a reconditioned old, lower power one is £10K+.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals that's a lot more expensive then I imagined when you said expensive whoo...
Looking forward to seeing your solution installed and tested, preferably with plenty of grinder action.
Or could you run a regular electric outboard from your battery pack? Maybe 2 in tandem connected by a bar for steering?
@@VinceW187 the picture shown at 7:06 has a price tag of $30.000.
Presumably this isn't just a random picture but instead a picture to show the class of engine Alex considered?!
@@Jehty21 TY
One issue with hanging an engine outside off the back needing air creates a problem with keeping water out of the cowling/engine during adverse conditions. Also having to open any hatch during a storm to use any complicated backup just wont happen untill the storm passes. Some form of wing engine/motor will probably work out the best solution for a worse case, time critical event. Saying that though, I have been in storms in blow boats with strong diesel engines and still ended up hanging off a sea anchor for two days because of conditions rather than sail or engine faults.
I think you are on the correct track, 3 motors gives you a better chances of getting out of a sticky situation even if one dies, always better to have mutable back ups. Also battery and electric motors are less likely to fail then a outboard or other multi fuel burning motors setup.
Redundancy was indeed one of the factors, and outboards are alarmingly complex! A cheaper petrol outboard as you imply is too unsafe.
My humble suggestion as someone who has seen everything go wrong is pack a spare turbo and hoses for that turbo as well as a spare alternator or simply bracket in a extra alternator with a double pully. Pack a supply of extra hoses, hose clamps, oil... A lot of it as well as a funnel and tray you can use to scoop oil with good leather gloves and rtv silicone.... And duck tape
I like it! Three electric waterproof propulsion units. I am mentally trying to figure out where you will stow them. I'll wait over here, out of the way.
Back when I had a single engine cruiser, I had a small outboard as a back up. It would only push us about 3 knots, but that beat the hell out of paddling. Never once used it, except to test it and run it occasionally, but it certainly gave me peace of mind. I enjoy your show. By the way, I was born in Margate (American dad /English mom) still have family in Kent and that channel can get viscious. Of course we get hurricanes here in the southeast, they can be a little challenging.
Cheers!
Alex, I’ve been watching your Alan exploits since the beginning. I truly want for this to succeed, but the further this goes along the more I wonder why you went down the old lifeboat route and not with an old arctic capable sailboat that’s already pretty much designed for what you need. In the case of a sailboat it’s the diesel that’s the backup power system. Wind can be a little tricky to harness at times but it’s completely free and quite sustainable. I’m obviously a sailor, but I also spend my fair share of time on powerboats too.
That said, I have no doubt that with enough time and effort and more unconventional workarounds you will arrive at a boat that does most of what you want. I’ll keep watching and hoping you can solve the fundamental problems you are facing.
Polar-ready yachts aren't quite as simple as a straight up alternative to a TELB. Most are out as they have keels that aren't ice-compatible. Those that really are s**t hot will be hundreds of thousands of pounds - those with huge lead ballast, steel impact bracing etc. Alan has the advantage of inherent buoyancy, heavy inbuilt insulation, cavernous interior, and a very sturdy hull. Many yachts also only have little engine and props as an after-thought, which couldn't be relied upon if having to fight for days through loose ice, when wind power couldn't be relied upon.
I like the rear railing/deck/engine mount. help secure wires and what not from environment. I believe having multiple smaller azi-pod style motors.
Also, if the motors raised and lowered in to the water you could combine the steering into the vertical shaft the deploys it.
I've been thinking along similar lines about fitting electric motors that can be deployed in the event my diesel fails, or if I simply want to trundle a short distance or for mooring. I like the solution you outlined.
Interesting, I have a Gardner 6LW in mine and have heard a rumour that one broke down once so I was thinking about a generator powered electric chain drive to the propshaft as a backup but I like your idea.
That had to be a rumour about a Gardner breaking down. Just really isnt possible. Ran out of diesel maybe but breaking down....yeah nah.
Great to have another update, thanks Alex!
Your problem solving skills are fantastic!
I agree with your plan. You can't beat a diesel for reliability and efficiency, and you have too little space for a lot of batteries. Fuel is available everywhere. You primary motivator is ideal.
But like you, with my little powerboat, I want a separate backup system, enough to get me out of immediate trouble. Electric as a backup is far more viable than as a primary. Building a small rear deck off the back would make getting in and out and loading supplies a bit easier and safer. It only need to be half a meter by 4 or 5. Then you can deploy two electric drives off each corner. You could probably fold them up under the deck to keep them on the outside and not take up space. And while you could steer with a tiller, you could steer with separate speed controls! By reversing them, Alan could spin in place! I think two are enough, 3 is overkill.
I like the idea of using reverse thrust to steer
@@AlexHibbertOriginals What do you think about a small deck off the back?
I like that too.
Could consider using a outboard steering system. Then your moving a cable system in and out of a protective tubing. If you incorporate a outboard hydraulic lift of electric lift then its simple as toggle to lower your unit and toggle to raise. Then your steering can be simple as push forward on lever for one direction and pull backward for opposite direction as some flat bottom boats used. If you add the switch to trigger raise and lower onto that with a nob to adjust speed of electric drive. You can minimize it to least amount of space. If you had three switches could toggle all three on or just one in case you lose one. In a jam, make rudder stationary and treat the motors as ship steering use one forward and one reverse for turns as an option if rudder gets damaged thus does not turn.
You had me at Alan! Any Alan video is a good thing!
I like your project happy boating. Have you ever thought about installing rolling chalks? They use them on fishing boats to slow down the sided to side roll. They run for to aft low on the haul and have no moving parts.
You'll enjoy some episodes planned soon.
This boat is going to out live everyone watching this
My retired nextdoor neighbor repairs outboard gasoline motors and I've learned enough to trust my life to one.
An electric backup sounds like a fair plan. There are so many ways something could go wrong that covering all of them seems overwhelming if not just silly.
epic build sir ,i would love to see a 1/4 size alan tagging along as a tender with a yammaha 2hp,but you may have to cut her loose in a storm.keep it simple sir, if it moves ,it's gonna need maintenence ,solid state all the way !..i'm just gonna pretend i didn't hear you say chip board !
Love the series, am here from the beginning.
Understand your concern about your powerplant, but a back up from electricity will nog be sufficient with your battery set up.
Maybe the cheapest choice will be a 1 cilinder inboard diesel.
This is not helpful if your prop shaft is compromised.
But more realistic then a sail or a outboard in my mind.
Maybe start with rebuilding the current engine en gearbox?
Love the progress so far!
Gr from the Netherlands
Don't forget there will be a diesel generator too.
I also considered parasails, but gave up, I tried an electric outboard, but after 3 months waiting I cancelled and bought a petrol outboard and plumbed it into a 50 litre tank. This is my least favourite option but it's done now, however after seeing the same hull as Alan in Amsterdam with a mast, I think I will go for this to give me a third motive option. The one in Amsterdam had no added keel, just ballast and seemed to be a fair weather sail, so I am going with a tiny windsurf sail, at under 3 meters it will pull the boat along slowly, and will mainly be used for saving fuel. Unlike myself you were talking about adding a keel at one point so this might be the best option for you.
Bilge keels - custom removable ones, indeed.
A mount on the back ready to take an electric or diesel outboard engine, one that could be lowered and dropped onto the mount if the need arises?
The video covers this. Diesel outboards are very heavy, very expensive, complex to maintain, and need to be stored upright. Even a reconditioned old, lower power one is £10K+.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Electric outboard?
The video covers that too. It's essentially what I'm doing, without having to comply with the whole power and control ecosystem Torqeedo and other brands tie you into.
I enjoyed this episode a lot. But what a good back up system would I couldn't say.
The best way to power Alan with solar would probably be to build a pontoon bridge across the sea, covered with PV panels and a rapid-charge station every few kilometers.
Making it within budget and in a way that doesn't make it a maritime hazard is probably easy.
You have tapped into my comments section's soul.
The electric motor idea is Brilliant.
I been thinking of getting a similar vessel designed. I like the idea of electric power as well as torroidal propellers and using the oceans swells to generate electricity to recharge the battery combined with perovskite solar panels and torroidal wind turbines....
Wish I could crowd fund hiring a master naval architect to help with the design and the construction process...
Things I've used with various levels of success to make a backer for polyester resin: Saran Wrap ( Cling Wrap ), PET-G printed from a 3d printer, Packing Tape covered pieces of wood and wax paper. I like the electric motor idea, you could have some sort of generator you could break out in emergencies to run them off of your stores of diesel.
Well, since you teased us by mentioning "various levels of success", the least you could have done was rate them from worst to best.
The wax paper became part of the fiberglass in a permanent way. The cling wrap fell apart during removal but didn't stick. The petg raft and packing tape covered wood worked perfectly.
@@jkj2r80fojf23- many thanks for that!
Waw you build an amazing boat ,,
This all reminds me quite a bit of space exploration. Essentially once your out there your alone. No one can get to you quickly, if they can get to you at all. So you have to have multiple ways of doing everything. Alans Engine has been built to be essentially bullet proof, but nothing is 100% so it makes sense to want some sort of propulsion back up. I also agree that not only the power plant should have a back up as the propeller could get fowled, smashed, or lord only knows. So a complete secondary propulsion system makes sense. I thought about this to see if I could think of anything else you could do. I thought it might be easier to mount 2 electric outboards one to each side, but it would be difficult to link them without some kind of complex electric steering control so that's out. Honestly I thought on this for a few hours and your idea seems the best. Its simple, and likely as power efficient as its possible to be. I will keep thinking on it, and if I come to any ideas Ill post them here.
Thanks Seth
Very good
I would have originally though you would go with a through shaft generator/electric motor combo, it would help to keep the batteries charged when overcast and diversity is always a good thing in extreme environments, though your point about driveshaft, rudder and prop failures is definitely a good one, would it not make more sense to carry spares of those? Granted, getting out and changing a propshaft under water adrift at sea in the artic sounds like a terrible idea, the likelihood of such an eventuality is pretty minimal for this craft. Unless you intend to change the rudder system? your only real concern would be hitting a submerged object, ice, shipping container, shipwreak, etc your current rudder system seems designed to be resistant to such collisions.
As for steering your tri outboards- Could you do 2 instead and just use differential thrust? Keeps the mounting and control significantly simpler. Best of luck, love this series.
It's possible, but I'd need to check the separation/angle would be sufficient.
I like the idea of electric motors when I'm doing a project, but in this case I think you might be overthinking it.
My reccomendation would be to get an older Yamaha Hi-Thrust 9.9 long. I know it introduces another fuel, but they are very efficient, so for a backup you could use a single externally mounted tank. I bought one for a project boat (and home) that I used to own. That boat was a heavy steel 34' boat with a 13' beam, and no thought to hydrodynamics. Still manage to push the boat along at near hull speed, and had pretty good control of the boat while docking. The Yamaha motors are incredibly reliable, and a high lift outboard bracket should be all you need.
While you could certainly do it in the way you suggested, think of all the time you's be spending on a backup, rather than getting closer to your overall goals for the boat. Just my 2 cents!
Great channel, thanks for the content!
It's certainly something I've considered. And will continue to.
I actually build a electric hydrofoil and the challenges were massiv. You can see my build log on my youtube channel.
The main thing is that those small brushless motors use a digital drive that changes the polarity of the current instead of a carbon brush. Those digital drives are fiddly to setup and require some experience which luckily I got from the efoil community. You cannot troubleshoot them without a laptop.
The other thing is that the current is massive. My hydrofoil runs on 50V and up to 150A. That is 7500W and will drain any sized battery in no time. Even my Electric Vehicle with 400km range would only supply that motor for 10 hours.
I would rather go for a wind powered setup. That is waterproof and you can troubleshoot it with your bare hands. Also cheaper and the power source is endless.
While it might be very impractical, a mast and sail might be the best solution? Easy to maintain, cheaper (?) than three engines and, as an added bonus, you can use the side railings as anchor points.
I know it’s not as reliable, but it saves power, money and time to setup
good idea to have some electric outboards.
Electric ....sounds like a great idea.looking forward to see what u finally come up with
It's a good idea these 3 motors
A stabilizing sail will not only give you a more comfortable ride, but it can also get you home in a pinch.
Get an old two-stroke seagull as a backup 😂
Any chance you will be sailing Alan up here to Iceland? I would love to see it once it's underway on an adventure!
Maybe in future, but it's not on our current plan. I may be in Iceland in Oct to speak at the Rescue conf.
If in doubt, add more gizmos.
A small diesel outboard is a good option, and probably less expensive and easier to set up... if you factor in labor as an installation expense. Additionally it would not require a rudder in the event the original one was damaged as you described
Can you link me to a 'small' diesel outboard that isn't £10k+ second-hand, or the weight of a small person?
@@AlexHibbertOriginals
Yanmar at about half your request
All the D27s I can see from good retailers are £10-16k - inc. refurbs. They also weigh a ton.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals
The one in the link was removed from Alan's cousin
I had mentioned the Lynch/AGNI motors on a past video and was surprised to see from your video the Yanmar Diesel/electric hybrid system utilizes one-which makes sense as they are such efficient generators as well as being incredibly high torque motors. My current project is using an older AGNI motor in conjunction and mounted to the top of an old outboard drive unit with a ship type tri blade propeller to make what is essentially a high power trolling motor that I'm running on 48 volt ebike batteries. It may be a possibility in your circumstance for a backup motor solution as well with your engineering skills for designing a remote control unit for steering. It would be cost comparable I would think to what you are considering
I think what you're suggesting is essentially a self-contained unit (like the Yanmar hybrid) - a generator and motor in one, linked to a battery bank. I discounted it as I'm going to need a stand-alone generator anyhow, and my solution also solves the problem if the prop, prop shaft, or rudder are busted too.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Thank you for replying! I reread my comment and it is not clear at all and I apologize. What I was implying really was utilizing just the lower end of an old gas outboard engine mated with a lynch/AGNI motor for powering it off your battery bank. A simple servo motor or cable driven steering, and perhaps a larger propeller from a ship mounted on the lower unit would be necessary but it would be a very capable emergency backup you could run off your 48 volt battery bank (also economical compared to alternatives). Lynch/AGNI high power axial gap unique DC motors can put out 12kw of power at 48 volts, but can also be run far below that indefinitely, or far above that for short periods if necessary. A golf cart 48volt dc controller is sufficient, but higher end controllers can be had and work well also. You could keep on board a petrol or diesel generator for backup power and recharging your battery banks if you don't already have one, but the AGNI/LYNCH motor could certainly move your boat around as even Yanmar decided to use those motors in their hybrid drive system. Just ideas as I'm a huge fan of yours as well as obviously Cedric Lynch and his Lynch motor.
If all else fails.... row it out.
Alex, as your primary prop/ring rudder is pretty much a sitting duck for larger ice chunk damage do you think a 24v walk behind forklift motor driving a smallish arneson style surface drive mounted to the transom on the port side if the rudder support with a seastar type pump for the steering ram would cover both engine and rudder failure to get you to a repair port.
Happy to sketch something up if you want.
Remarkable machines! Alas, whilst Alan could probably benefit from some massive structural and fundamental re-designs, I just don't have the means to install that sort of thing.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Alex I suggested it because the primary drive shaft from the motor is basically only an enclosed tube which could go through the fibreglass and foam that forms the step/seat inside the door and the motor (less than 40kg) could be mounted directly to the step with minimal bracing and as the external ball (uni joint housing) is flush mounted the rudder strut bolts could hold a base plate for it as from memory they were designed to support the boat through the hook brackets?
Would it not be easier to install a Bracket in which to hold a backup outboard engine ? and have it so it can twist to the side when not in use ?
The video covers this. Diesel outboards are very heavy, very expensive, complex to maintain, and need to be stored upright. Even a reconditioned old, lower power one is £10K+.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Alright i missed that part was multitasking :P
If you want a big project but at the same time pretty easy. You can have 2 Driveinputs so you then can attached whatever Hydralic motor can be small and easy to drive with a small electric or fossilfuel.. because then you can have the Hydralic lines outside the boat with the Motor that spins the Oil for the hydralic motor
Ahh my ADD is acting up.
Short list here.
Hydralic motor
another Inputshaft or split
hydralic Pump
Engine/Motor for the Pump
Hydralic lines 2 Flow and return...
That should do it
I think in a emergency 2 small out boards 25 hp each or less would give you a chioce of 1 2 0r 3 engines no need or generrater wires battery's blowing up
It's the simple way great vedios
I see the Voyager beat me to a sail idea which is free energy when there is wind - another option should your super diesel sipping engine still be functioning you may like to have a back up water pump connected via a clutch system to Mr Bukh and drawing water in and ejecting it via a fire hose type steerable nozzle on the stern - by a long chalk Big Al is not a jet ski but simple backup propulsion / steering system. I thought you said “Guts in a Row”🤔
That's certainly inventive Dick!
Have you considered a second hand diesel outboard? Yanmar did a 36hp one and they can be found on several ex MOD surplus sites such as RAMCO from time to time. They are anything from £500 upwards.
Given that reconditioned Yanmars from good dealers are £10k, I'd not touch a £500 one with a bargepole!
@@AlexHibbertOriginals well...not saying that a 500 quid one wouldn't need "some" work!
As for the rudder, having a spare rudder hanging of the side that can be fitted on the stern like an outboard might get you home if the main one goes out.
I’d stick with the diesel setup and simply bring some spare parts.
Re: spare parts - sadly there are enough things that can go wrong with an engine that can't be quickly fixed at sea with a spares box, especially in tough conditions.
A cheap old reliable Outboard with 5-10hp stored somewhere on the back would be a good backup.
Petrol too dangerous to store in large quantities.
If the rudder or propeller are smashed, does a new rudder be useful ? I mean, if it's still attached to the boat but broken, it will induced drag so is a new rudder powerful enough to go against it and control ? Same question for 3x8hp motors. I don't know if this emergency case (lost rudder) needs to be covered as it adds many complexity and may not be solved.
I don't think we can have a plan for all the ways in which the rudder or prop may be damaged.
what kind of fire suppression system is alan going to have? are you planning to install one of those fancy automatic fire suppression system or just stick with the good ol fire extinguisher mounted on a wall?
Currently I have fire extinguishers mounted on walls/in cupboards, but I'll expand this. Probably as no to an auto system.
Why 3 units? Would a pair be enough thrust and by varying the trust allow a small measure of steering?
Three, to get me to a power level that seems reasonable, and so if one dies I'm not down to one.
An alternative might be to depend on the greed of strangers. A long strong line, very powerful radio, and a large roll of cash. In trouble, get on the radio and offer a prize for the first successful rescuer.
Spend your money on ensuring clean fuel and clean oil, carry lots of spares. Your engine will be incredibly reliable. Most trawlers are single engine and get a much harder life. The space and weight you’ll use carrying spare motors could be used to completely rebuild your engine. Have cruised on a single engine for years with no problem.
I need a small motor for an inflatable anyhow.
Clean fuel, clean oil. Agreed! The engine has a coarse filter, two fine filters, and a water separator.
I noticed that the intake is inside the cab. I would run a snorkel straight up the top with a curved pipe. I say this because if you have to batten down that hatches for a while, it's gonna suck out the oxygen realy fast inside that boat. I haven't seen any intake ventilation, so I am assuming it's using O2 when the doors are open. Correct me if I am wrong. I would have both, diesel and electric.
The DV48 needs about 50L of air per second at full chat. Coincidentally, I've just taken delivery of an acoustically baffled intake vent.
How did you get to 3x 8hp for the electrics? Would be interested to know the calculations as intuitively it seems a bit high.
Because Alan needs thrust (obviously prop choice and a reducer gear would be key) and 24hp is approx. the lowest engine power I've seen other TELB lifeboats fitted with. Alan was spoilt with his top of the range one. Also, 3 motors allow for failure/redundancy.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Thanks for the reply :) No problem with redundancy but it would be interesting to know how much HP (and torque) that Allen's engine is producing at those revs. you might find that the power required is considerably less for an electric motor.
The spec sheets don't go under 2000rpm, but I'd extrapolate to about 25-28hp at our revs sweet spot.
It'll be interesting to see how you solve the electric motor puzzle. Three seems like too many. Two mounted and one spare maybe? As an emergency propulsion system you are usually accepting less speed to offset weight and complexity.
I'm talking out of my arse here as I don't think anyone has s anything similar to compare it to. I'm interested to see what the result is.
If fewer, they'd need to be larger. One of them on their own needs to be able to be mounted to the little inflatable launch too.
It's true, even at the 31% efficiency before actuating the propeller, diesel has excellent utilizable energy density. It's not worth getting cancer for. I would convert to sail, mast and retrofitted deep keel, because it's free, and if used properly, better per unit £ for energy consumed, and better for the environment and health of the engineers.
I love how casually people suggest a total conversion of a TELB to a sail boat.
Even with a big battery bank, your range is likely to be maybe 40 n.miles. Check the math for your own battery bank. Assume you'll need about 5 kW. A petrol extra long shaft (25") Yamaha 9.9 HP high thrust outboard is perhaps a better option in the "well proven" category. They are commonly used to propel 3000-5000 kg + sailboats at 5-6 knots. Keep in the cabin until needed. Have a hefty bracket you bolt on the transom first (pre-drilled holes sealed with Sika), then lower motor in place. They are heavy beasts (60 kg) so you need to have a rope on the motor as a safety line as you lower in place (Helper sitting on the cabin top belaying it into position; lower guy opens back hatch and tightens clamping bolts. If the diesel is consuming about 2L/hr then figure nearly 4 L/hr for the petrol engine. So a 20L tank gives you 5 hrs @ 5 knots = 25 n.miles or so.
Oh, put the petrol tank on the roof if you are so worried about it. How many small runabouts use petrol motors with internal gas tanks - thousands and thousands.
Alan will have a 4.5kW diesel generator anyhow, and 4x50A AC-DC charge controllers, so it's not about one-off battery capacity.
Engine outboards of any type are awkward and heavy to store and manhandle, if not mounted to a transom throughout, prior to an emergency.
Having large petrol fuel tanks is suicidal on a boat like Alan, and for passages he's to make. There's nowhere outside the cabin for more than a jerry can or two. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals I didn't know about the little genset. With that you've got a good reason for electric backup propulsion.
I assume that you have already considered it, but I still want to ask:
How do electric motors manage with arctic temperatures?
Motors are fine (as are most electrics), and they will be nice and warm underwater.
The batteries are inside, so won't be cold.
Alex I've been busy looking for submersible thrusters I was thinking they mount under the hull easily one on either side of the prop but I can only find about 7 hp
Not enough right? They I tall on skews look very sharp I will continue to hunt! For you I have found beautiful 100 gallon solid double wall fuel tanks
I don't like bladders if they burst or rip well it will get nasty! and as I'm sure you realize the first duty of a sailor is to be a fireman!!! Then sailor I'm praying you install
A auto fire suppression system for the boat with your mind I'm sure you can devise a sprinkler of some sort and have plenty of foam at hand ! The aforementioned thrusters mount on stream lined skegs and would very simple electric back up. Cheers Tony I have some nice gear for you were do I send ?
Agreed that hard wall tanks are a lot neater for my purposes. The bladders in their defence though are well made and tough as hell. On propulsion units yes there's still a limited range, from the all in one electric outboards to the separate components pods and ESCs you need to get. For me voltage is important, so I'm likely to go for the punchiest 24V available and then use multiples.
Get in touch via the contact form on my website - probably easiest. Cheers!
@AlexHibbertOriginals I'll keep looking there available but cost alot for the real deal
You could still get a couple KW with a good solar system
No chance an affordable 2nd hand diesel outboard is available?
www.frenchmarine.com/product/Yanmar-D27-Marine-Diesel-outboard-27hp-903-447 and reconditioned ones still over £10k.
One thought, probably useless- they make similar electric outboard propulsion systems as "trolling motors" for fishing boats.
Don't know whether they're big enough for Allan, though.
Certainly plenty of little electric outboards on the market, but many are only 0.5-2hp.
Hi Alex
In this video, you said that you will be connecting your electric motors in series??
If you do this, you will only be giving each motor 16 volts. Should you wire up the motors this way, you will have the same power as one motor. Parallel wiring gives you the maximum output if you can supply that amount of electrical power.
Steve Hardy.
If I did, it would have been a mistake, or using the word series in another meaning of the word - i.e. in a row.
Hope it all helps mate.
Steve
Honestly, the diesel outboard seems like the best backup option really... the whole triple electric set up seems overly complicated for an emergency back up system. You can probably find a used outboard at a significant discount. You are talking about deploying this in an emergency, possibly in rough seas and the triple electric system just seems much more difficult to deploy.
Used ones are still £10k+, and are complicated, awkward to store, and very heavy to move around.
The electric set up would weigh 10% of the outboard, be easy to store before use, and could be designed to secure onto the transom with rough seas in mind.
I really don't see how an electric motor is more complex than any combustion engine. At least the "brushless DC" motors (that are typically just multi phase AC motors), they have extremely few moving parts (one plus bearings), and will be operated at a very stable temperature just below 0C. Should be fairly robust, imo
$ props are a safety margin ,,,better than one incase the one fails.
Beta is making some Hybrid units that look like they might fill your bill and add functionality at the same time. Also might we not be trying to be overly complicated. Have you considered an emergency sailing rig. Lifeboats are inherently stable and an unconventional sail plan like a Luger or Spritsail are easily stowed as no one of the components is large and the rig doesn’t need a lot of rigging if any. Sorry if I’m overstating something you’ve considered.
Thanks - I've discounted installing a rig or mast on Alan - kites I'm still open to.
Huh, didn't know we made lifeboat engines (danish)
What about a kerosene powered outboard engine? I know Parsun has some. The Bukh could probably run on kerosene as well.
More sensible than a petrol outboard, but it would still mean two fuels to store. The Bukh might, or on a mix, but kerosine really stinks and is lower in energy than diesel.
Why put the electric motors in series?
Carefull if you think going lithium for storage.
Those fires don't go out and in a grp boat fires aren't nice either.
If it was my boat I would use more traditional batteries, the double function as keel weight also.
( The sailing property of the lifeboat is best with weight of the number of persons which can be onboard)
My main bank is Lead Carbon. Just a handful of smaller LiFePo4s for other uses.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals the lead ones would be my choice also for a main bank
Good luck with the build
a waterprooth camera mounted underneath be neat for when in artic clear waters? maybe a fishing line and real attached to hull.. catch a fishy and steam cook it wotever, be living dream den
Kite sail?
I think you can get away with not needing your electric motors to rotate if you use differental thrust
My guess would be that steering would be pretty limited if you only power down the port side one to try and turn to port. They wouldn't be mounted that far apart.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals If you need more steering you can always reverse one motor.
Honestly, if you’re going that far up north, what are you going to do about communication? VHF marine radio isn’t going to cut it.
Iridium.
What is the route you wanna take with alan
See Ep #45
What is the purpose of having 3 motors? Redundancy? 1 will probably be enough to use your entire power budget. Electric trolling motors will be the most efficient, coming with a propeller matched ideally to its motor.
Redundancy, yes. Also, much over 8hp the whole design of the motors and housings gets a lot bulkier, and more expensive. Also, a single one can be used to power a launch.
Might need a Sherp. It's just a bit on the costly side of things. My apologies for the useless comment.
Yours isn't the only one
Im no engineer, but I really struggle with the idea that a diesel motor running a electric motors via a generator will use more fuel than the current arrangment
Every time energy is converted or processed, you'll have losses. Through heat, noise, self-discharge, wire resistance, and so on. Diesel engine's losses are through the engine itself, gearbox, prop shaft, prop. For a hybrid system: engine, alternator, wires, charge controller, wires, batteries, wires, ESC, wires, motor, prop shaft, prop.
Idk, seems overly complicated for what an 25hp Honda petrol outboard could also accomplish…
Edit: plus when speaking of failure scenarios, what’s when the batteries fail? If u need a backup powerplant i think outboard is the way to go
Quantities of a dangerous secondary fuel isn't really viable.
There are two battery banks, so total failure unlikely.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals sure, you have to judge if the risk is worth it. My thinking would be to carry something like a 20l tank somewhere strapped to the outside and have a petrol engine mounted on the back. I have no idea how a diesel outboard would preform in such cold climates so that might be a good option too maybe. I have no idea how reliable batteries are (water ingress shorting them out?) so i felt like second engine (and rudder hehe) would be the best way to go :)
Doing it with the 3x electric motors and controller tho will make for a much more interesting video anyways so :p
Good luck and safe voyage!!!
20L won't take you far with an outboard - there would need to be a significant supply.
You're not alone with your final comment!
I have no great suggestions, just want to add a comment for the rhythm of algo.
cheers
3:08 The ocean has a DRAIN PLUG between Greenland and Iceland???
So many do.
Just ad an outboard bracket and a yamaha hightrust ultralongtail.
Where does all the highly flammable petrol go?
@@AlexHibbertOriginals same place as you batteries would go to run electric outboard.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals i have Bukh dv20 that gave up on me, i was glad i had the outboard kicker to get me out of trouble. I mounted it on the transom with a Garelick bracket just in case. Glad i did! I use an external tank that is tied to the rail. I am living on a 34foot sailboat, most of the time at anchor all year round
if plan a engine engine died cant get it started and plan b you could used two trolls motors which you normally find them on front end on boat and can make bracket fold up on side of boat and unfolds on side in water plan c ended up making bracket for outboard gasoline power for emergency backup in cause of plan a failures plan d find wrecks tesla car or electric vehicle and get esc and battery or else out of it to control motor came from it and use it in cause of engine failure just slip on belt n go
there so much stuff you can do but tight on budget cant afford for it which i understand that point some time u can get away with gasoline or diesel engine more than electric motors because someone can bring fuel but cant bring charges which why get more challenging
Wrong type of kite. Those two-line Parafoils inherently unstable, as seen in the video. Keyword is Sutton Flowform. Not much steering except choosing the altitude where wind is favourable.
Do they not still need a gyro if not controlled by a human?
What gyro? There is a video on TH-cam named "Sutton 252 Flowform Kite". It is enormous but quite manageable even solo.
They don't require any active control? Can be deployed and left alone?
I have. None I have found show unattended kites pulling along 25' boats.
I have done it many times. You tie the kite to the bow and downwind you go. No steering needed. But wind blows different direction on different altitudes. Even smallish kite like 80 is equal to huge spinnaker when it is mile high.
No Wisdom, Shock or Horror...I take delight in your idea. Like you said, instead of backing up steering and propulsion separately, you can do both with one stone( (like the proverbial bird). Waste not, want not.
No just fire a restored seagul on the back like everyone else lol
Ok
Electric is to unreliable and expensive. 15hp Honda outboard as a backup. Boom done!!
With all that petrol you'd need to store, boom is the correct word.
If it's electric powered, it's a MOTOR.
If it's gas powered, it's an ENGINE.
Yes. ?
So many comments about diesel outboards, masted sails and kites are ridiculous. Expensive, unfeasible and needlessly complicated.
Obviously the answer is a cold fusion reactor powering a magneto-hydrodynamic drive.
Yes, I’m being a ridiculous commenter and trying to help the algorithm at the same time.