What I suggest is to watch and see what the high level players do. Ask on Smash boards. The character discords are great as well. Discord is a voice and text chat app. They have a discord for each character.
+GimR it's 3, we tested it! could it be character dependant? :o but i don't think so.. at the first frame of shielding you don't see the shield even though it's active.. so when you shield 3 frames you only see it for 2!
I believe Yoshi is a special case. It seems that he does not have to wait 3 frames and can perform a shield grab immediately. However, his shield grab actually comes out slower than his dash grab, so you don't grab faster with this tech. But, this can still be useful because although his shield grab comes out slower, it ends sooner.
Another great ganon tech I advise you to do is move the control stick slightly to the left in the characyer select screen and then press A. If more ganons started to use this, it would make ganondorf a top tier!!
Nice so this is almost the equivalent of a JC (Jump Cancel) grab in Melee which is generally the go to option for any running grab in that game as it comes out faster and you have less end lag on whiff. I think this is something all characters can use in at least certain situations since it provides you with a slight amount of protection and you have the reduced end lag of the standing grab if executed properly. Good video as always BSD!
Actually, I believe this technique can be a bit more useful, if used with an "option select". Rolls start at frame 4, so dash in, and input shield, forward/backward direction, and attack. If the opponent attacks and it lands within the first 3 frames, you perfect shield and do a shield grab. If an attack isn't landed you just roll away. Is this perfect? No. Your opponent can still read you if your rolls are predictable, or their attack crosses up and you whiff the grab, among others. But I suppose its better than timing 3/60th of a second input, and hoping the grab doesn't whiff and leave you vulnerable.
Sonic can take this further. Dash > Side B > Immediately Shield and press A. You will slide further and have the option of turning around if needed. ( Reverse the Side B )
Pivot grabs are very situational, which is why they aren't mentioned in the video. They have more range than the other two, but like I said it's situational rather than bread and butter practical.
Oh and one more thing: you didn't go into how this effects characters with tether grabs. With Lucas, for example, shield grabbing is WAAAAAAAY faster than dash grabbing. Fewer active frames and 10 less frames of cooldown.
+stickjohnny they're very important for loads of characters, it's really good for characters like bowser and even sonic. But it isn't something you'd only use for punishing etc rather than a regular grab, that's what I mean by situational. For example, your opponent just used a move with some end lag that can be punished with a grab (i.e. TL dair), you'd just go and grab them rather than pivot grab them. But pivot grabbing is the better option in other aspects, hence why it's situational.
i have been playing ganondorf pretty much since the game came out and i have noticed i always do shield grabs instead of dash grabs but didnt know why. its nice to finally have a concrete explanation lol
Spin dash shield cancel grab allows for you to keep momentum while stand grabbing with sonic similar to jump cancelled grabs in melee. You could also b-reverse the spin dash to change positioning.
I don't know about the frame data but for Sonic I'm in the habit of cancelling my dash into side-b and immediately cancelling side-b into shield grab. Depending on the timing you can slide with it or not, and each move cancels immediately - it feels super fast and I never get a dash grab by accident. Really neat breakdown of shield grabs vs dash grabs, thanks!
Sonic doesn't need to do this, a known tech between Sonics is SDSC (Spin Dash Shield Cancel) grab where he shield cancels spin dash immediately into grab. (He can pivot and wavebounce it as well) It gives him more of a slide out of a run too. Thought I'd add this! Great vid as always BSD!
Another advantage of shield grabs instead of dash grabs is the usage at close range. Since dash grabs have a few frames more start up it might happen that you whiff because the grab hitbox comes out to late or you have too much momentum. With shield you can reduce your momentum to a minimum thus making it much easier to space your grab properly at close range. Still great video -> Like
Another thing I thought about; Captain Falcon has a tendency to run through his opponent when he dash grabs at close range. If your opponent is too far to normal grab but too close to dash grab, shield grabbing might help.
I know this is unrelated to the video, but since you guys are always in the lab, I have a question I'd LOVE to have answered. What K.O. takes the longest? The Star K.O.? Or the Screen K.O.? When the characters smack into the screen and then fall off? I want to say the Screen is slower but I'm not so sure...
*take note I haven't watched the full video yet. But I find shield grabs useful when I charge at someone, and they use some sort of move (like a tilt) that will get me if I run at them. That's when I shield up to them, because you slide just a little when you dash to shield, then grab them when their move's hit-frames are over. Unless they grab you first, it works a lot of the time XD
Wouldn't this help with ZSS in some cases? Doesn't her dash grab have lots more end lag than the standing grab? Either way, this trick has helped me quite a lot with ZSS, not for the reason I stated above, but for when I am too close for her dash grab to whiff (it could whiff as she slides forward a considerable amount. By doing this, she doesn't slide).
Slight nitpick, but you said there were only two types of grabs - standing grabs and dash grabs. However, there are also pivot grabs, that have their own animation, frame data, and range.
Do you have to run closer to do a shield grab because of the lower range compared to dash grab? If you account for that is it still faster? (not saying there aren't other good reasons to do it)
You could've mentioned the utility of shield grab for ZSS (makes you stop running instead of sliding while grabbing, so you don't misposition and get punished taking on account that ZSS's grab is really slow)
This is useful for Lucas as well. :) Dash grab is 2 frames slower so I'll be losing a frame on grabbing but his dash grab recovers 10 frames slower and has less range. So it's a decent trade-off.
"There are 2 kinds of grabs" immidietly stop watching because there are 3 types of grabs (you forgot pivot grabs) even though there might be useful info later on in this video. EDIT: *watches video* EDIT2: sad that it didn't help me :c
Pivot Grabs aren't really relevant on this issue since it's about grab approaches. And if you want to run up to an opponent and use a pivot grab, you will definitely be slower ^^ -Risuno
+Beefy Smash Doods Oh after actually watching this video what you just said is obvious. Looking just at the intro it seemed like spreading misinnformation, because you said ther ARE only 2 types, not that only this 2 types will be relevant for the video.
this might actually help me with my zss most of the time when I dash grab, I end up behind my opponent and whiff altogether leaving me open for a huge punish. and pivot grabbing doesn't make me launch forward and turn around unlike the dash grab. so thanks for this video.
So if the shield grab is done too soon, it becomes a Dash grab, and else it's a Standing grab? Well that explains why I can't land a grab with Captain Falcon, since I always grab using Shield + A, without really trying to time between both buttons.
Unrelated question: To beefy smash bros and others Do you guys full jump with x or y or tap jump because i know they play tap jump on to do many other options like Up smash out of shield? Please and thank you
Honestly against many players i've found that losing one frame to shield grabbing is a small price to pay for being able to shield anything they throw out. If someone is landing, whatever they use will be shielded and you will get the grab. If they airdodge, they have considerable endlag and you still get the grab. I really feel that shield grabbing is much better in most situations, losing one to two frames is definitely worth the time you can perfect shield their attacks.
+DL With It ^ This! I've had countless moments of barely Perfect Shielding punishes when I whiff a Shield Grab as Villager out of running because most opponents expect the extra 20 frames or so of endlag and depending on the move I can get a free Front Tilt or even an Up Smash.
I found out about this a couple weeks ago by accident and called shield cancel grabbing but didn't think it would be practical so didn't share and now beefy smash doods are making a video about it. Lmao
Can you go into the differences and benefits for Dash Attack Cancel Grabs (for characters like Little Mac) and Jump Cancel Grabs (for low-traction characters) in a future video? It seems like it could act as a good second part to this video.
Can you do a "how good is run cancel shielding/fox trotting" video? I use Lucas and I feel like I CAN'T do either of these. I need to know why ;-;. Beefy smash doods help
Great vid, do you have any data on which grab beats which if both players are trying to grab? Like the ideally timed dash grab vs standing grab, which grab will win?
I was just wondering about this earlier today, thanks for clarifying. should be situational on wii fit, is probably be a better option since less end lag, I'll start practicing!
i had done some research on this before hand and found that on some characters like pacman, samus, and zss shield grabbing was significantly worse as frame data for dash and stand grabs were identical, range is way reduced, and stand grab was actually slower respectively. just some fun little tidbits i had gotten on my own research. As a side question, will you guys be covering what ive called easy pivot's?
I main Link and use Falcon as a secondary. Link has a tether so doesn't really matter and Falcon's dash grab is so good it's usually safe enough to use
(After watching first 30s only) Omg what this is a tech that exists? So many times I have run through someone trying to dash grab on falcon ._. (after watching the rest) Since it wasn't stated(?) would shield grabs shorten the range of the grab? as in would you still have momentum and slide past while doing a standing grab or would it work the way I hope it does? :P
Bringing up your shield cancels all forward or backward momentum you may have, so I'd imagine that it works the way you seem to hope. It shortens the range when compared to a dash grab, but the standing grab range is the same as the shield grab range, since they're the same thing.
With sonic you could spin dash and cancel it with a grab to make the input less precise as you will always get a standing grab and it may be faster but I have not tested it
This is actually useful for King Dedede as well, even though his dash grab is only 2 frames slower than standing grab (which makes running shield grab a 10 frame grab). Running shield grab is good because it ends up having 9 frames less of end lag than dash grab (which is lot of frames, which can really save you in a pinch if you whiff the grab). I`d only use this as a mix up, however, as Dedede`s dash grab has substantially more range than standing grab.
Deadknight237 It depends on the match up. King Dedede is best played defensively, taking advantage of his exceptional ranged, disjointed hitboxes, so it's best to force them to approach you. King Dedede struggles against characters with good aerial mobility (ie, Yoshi, Jigglypuff), so you'll need to carefully keep them walled out with short hop back airs and full hop forward airs. Rush down characters such as Captain Falcon and Fox can be deterred from rushing in with up angled Gordos. But, if you're playing against characters with good camp games, you'll need to be the one approaching, as King Dedede has nothing to beat camping otherwise. Mix up your approach with a combination of Gordos, short hop nairs, perfect pivot back airs, and shield dashing (especially shield Dashing so you can get power shields on projectiles). I have an aggressive playstyle, but that's just my preference. I change my playstyle to suit the situation (tournament vs friendlies for example). If there's anything else you'd like to know about the character, I'd be happy to share more with you. I'm currently ranked 5th in my local area, and I have the best King Dedede out of the 4 that main him here, even better the top seeded player who mains him (by his own admission!)
I think it would have been more helpful if the opponent who rolled past the grabs put their shield up as fast as possible to see who gets frame advantage
Have you considered making a tutorial series for people interested in getting into higher level Smash play? A lot of the techniques on this channel are really interesting but almost impossible for people attempting to move up to jump into learning right away.
this is pretty simple. hes just saying if u stop dashing and block and then grab its safer for some characters than just doing a dash grab. its a difference of ~1 frame but in my opinion the 1 frame isnt worth the trouble unless youre using one of those 3 he mentioned.
I understand that, but I was suggesting he start a tutorial series for simpler techniques that don't have only a 1 frame window as well as these videos. Also it'd be cool if there were suggestions for methods of practicing or getting timings correct.
what should yoshi do? His dash grab gives him a lot more range (enough to cover a roll back) but has like a full second of end lag. His shield grab on the other hand is pretty mediocre and also has a lot of end lag, just not as much I guess it depends on what's needed at the moment, it's not like yoshi relies on grabs anyways
+jaime lopez Most of the time with Lucas you want to do PP retreating grabs to avoid punishes. But I guess if you want to take the risk, shield grabbing will reduce it a bit. So yes, it would benefit.
Now don't certain characters actually have a longer standing grab range than dash grab? I'm fairly confident Palutena's (and maybe Mewtwo?) is significantly longer as a standing grab.. point being is, there may be a handful of other characters that may gain another advantage out of dash-shield grabs, depending on how many frames are lost vs. how much range is gained.
This tech helps out characters who use tether grabs because of how laggy their dash grabs can be. For example, Lucas is stuck in his standing grab until frame 46 while his dash grab is frame 56. This ten frame different could be the difference between a shield or smash. Other characters with tethers, like ZSS, who have minimal frame differences between their standing and dash grabs (69 frames for standing and 72 for dash) do not gain anything from this tech.
Would Pikachu be an exception because his ending animation on his Dash Grab is a lot longer than most others even though it would come out faster is you dash grab you wouldn't have as much end lag if you sheild grabed right.
Based on the title, I thought this would be about grabbing out of shield, and how it's not always the optimal reaction/punish to a blocked attack
+DraXern 4120 ^
Yeah, OoS up B and Up smash are nice. As a Ryu main utilt dtilt jab Nair are nice too.
+Robi-Wan Shinobi fast fall soft fair very nice too.
Robi-Wan Shinobi but of course, some characters like Shulk or Robin struggle in shield
What I suggest is to watch and see what the high level players do. Ask on Smash boards. The character discords are great as well. Discord is a voice and text chat app. They have a discord for each character.
*LEARN THIS NEW TECHNIQUE TO BE ONE FRAME FASTER AS GANONDORF!*
I think you only have to shield for 2 frames. I could be wrong though. Great video as always!
+GimR it's 3, we tested it! could it be character dependant? :o but i don't think so..
at the first frame of shielding you don't see the shield even though it's active.. so when you shield 3 frames you only see it for 2!
+DraXern 4120 that's a good one lol
I believe Yoshi is a special case. It seems that he does not have to wait 3 frames and can perform a shield grab immediately. However, his shield grab actually comes out slower than his dash grab, so you don't grab faster with this tech. But, this can still be useful because although his shield grab comes out slower, it ends sooner.
The Beefy Smash Doods are some of the most important scientists in the smash community. Always in the lab.
Same with SmashCorner
+Juan pWn! Yea them too!
And Alpharad.
+slan lol the only thing he does is make for glory even more cancer
+Valak Dunban
That's the joke.
finally tech that can help my ganondorf
Another great ganon tech I advise you to do is move the control stick slightly to the left in the characyer select screen and then press A. If more ganons started to use this, it would make ganondorf a top tier!!
This Sonic main, Ike secondary, and Ganon pocket is pleased.
"cute (* - *)"
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What is ur Nintendo id mine is ljmaster17
+Beefy Smash Doods How will this information help out with characters with Tether Grabs such as Link and ZSS?
+Beefy Smash Doods Interesting video, you guys are gay.
+Lj S they won't add you lol
+SS•TecaLuca how do u know
Nice so this is almost the equivalent of a JC (Jump Cancel) grab in Melee which is generally the go to option for any running grab in that game as it comes out faster and you have less end lag on whiff. I think this is something all characters can use in at least certain situations since it provides you with a slight amount of protection and you have the reduced end lag of the standing grab if executed properly. Good video as always BSD!
Actually, I believe this technique can be a bit more useful, if used with an "option select".
Rolls start at frame 4, so dash in, and input shield, forward/backward direction, and attack. If the opponent attacks and it lands within the first 3 frames, you perfect shield and do a shield grab. If an attack isn't landed you just roll away.
Is this perfect? No. Your opponent can still read you if your rolls are predictable, or their attack crosses up and you whiff the grab, among others. But I suppose its better than timing 3/60th of a second input, and hoping the grab doesn't whiff and leave you vulnerable.
Sonic can take this further. Dash > Side B > Immediately Shield and press A.
You will slide further and have the option of turning around if needed. ( Reverse the Side B )
Can you film that?
You forgot to mention the 3rd type of grab: Pivot grab.
Other than that great video as always! Keep em' coming.
Pivot grabs are very situational, which is why they aren't mentioned in the video. They have more range than the other two, but like I said it's situational rather than bread and butter practical.
Oh and one more thing: you didn't go into how this effects characters with tether grabs.
With Lucas, for example, shield grabbing is WAAAAAAAY faster than dash grabbing. Fewer active frames and 10 less frames of cooldown.
+stickjohnny yeah tether grabbing is pretty important for some of the roster, good point!
+Muhammad Tariq (Groudon) I see your point. As a Villager main though, pivot grabs are *very* important to me.
+stickjohnny they're very important for loads of characters, it's really good for characters like bowser and even sonic. But it isn't something you'd only use for punishing etc rather than a regular grab, that's what I mean by situational. For example, your opponent just used a move with some end lag that can be punished with a grab (i.e. TL dair), you'd just go and grab them rather than pivot grab them. But pivot grabbing is the better option in other aspects, hence why it's situational.
you guys are so good at explaining and teaching smash 4 ! keep it up ;)
Great video man love it. Really good examples and good clips
Legit Ganondorf tech mentioned on a major Smash channel? I must be dreaming! Nice work.
i have been playing ganondorf pretty much since the game came out and i have noticed i always do shield grabs instead of dash grabs but didnt know why. its nice to finally have a concrete explanation lol
Spin dash shield cancel grab allows for you to keep momentum while stand grabbing with sonic similar to jump cancelled grabs in melee. You could also b-reverse the spin dash to change positioning.
I don't know about the frame data but for Sonic I'm in the habit of cancelling my dash into side-b and immediately cancelling side-b into shield grab. Depending on the timing you can slide with it or not, and each move cancels immediately - it feels super fast and I never get a dash grab by accident.
Really neat breakdown of shield grabs vs dash grabs, thanks!
Sonic doesn't need to do this, a known tech between Sonics is SDSC (Spin Dash Shield Cancel) grab where he shield cancels spin dash immediately into grab. (He can pivot and wavebounce it as well) It gives him more of a slide out of a run too.
Thought I'd add this! Great vid as always BSD!
Another advantage of shield grabs instead of dash grabs is the usage at close range. Since dash grabs have a few frames more start up it might happen that you whiff because the grab hitbox comes out to late or you have too much momentum. With
shield you can reduce your momentum to a minimum thus making it much easier to space your grab properly at close range.
Still great video -> Like
Wouldn't Lucas' grab be faster this way? Did you test him?
I think it could also serve as a slight movement mix-up as well. Since it's a matter of frames anyway, it's not beyond that realm
Another thing I thought about; Captain Falcon has a tendency to run through his opponent when he dash grabs at close range. If your opponent is too far to normal grab but too close to dash grab, shield grabbing might help.
2 types.....
but, can't you turn around and grab?
Nope, pivot grab.
Huh...
Ok
+Illustrious “Foxy, apparently” Foxx A pivot grab is a standing grab but there is a turnaround grab which I believe is the same as a dash grab
Kova SSB A *perfect* pivot grab results in a standing grab, but a normal running pivot grab is definitely different to dash or standing grabs
You and me had the same feeling with foxes shield grab i'm glad you helped clarify
0:01 its wolf! i knew he was back!
Is it bad that I love how no one was baited
+Mr. Lemonade is rly dum i wasn't baiting no one :\
~sad violin plays in the distance~
I know this is unrelated to the video, but since you guys are always in the lab, I have a question I'd LOVE to have answered. What K.O. takes the longest? The Star K.O.? Or the Screen K.O.? When the characters smack into the screen and then fall off? I want to say the Screen is slower but I'm not so sure...
That feel when you play Greninja, who has a dash grab that's *faster* than his standing grab...
Frame 14 standing grab for the loss.
*take note I haven't watched the full video yet. But I find shield grabs useful when I charge at someone, and they use some sort of move (like a tilt) that will get me if I run at them. That's when I shield up to them, because you slide just a little when you dash to shield, then grab them when their move's hit-frames are over. Unless they grab you first, it works a lot of the time XD
they literally said that
Turns out it's preeeeeeeetty good
Wouldn't this help with ZSS in some cases? Doesn't her dash grab have lots more end lag than the standing grab? Either way, this trick has helped me quite a lot with ZSS, not for the reason I stated above, but for when I am too close for her dash grab to whiff (it could whiff as she slides forward a considerable amount. By doing this, she doesn't slide).
Slight nitpick, but you said there were only two types of grabs - standing grabs and dash grabs.
However, there are also pivot grabs, that have their own animation, frame data, and range.
Do you have to run closer to do a shield grab because of the lower range compared to dash grab? If you account for that is it still faster? (not saying there aren't other good reasons to do it)
with Cloud you can Limit charge cancel > standing grab. is that faster than dash grab/shield grabbing?
Somebody pls talk about the fact that greninja's dash grab is quicker than regular standing grab like why.
You could've mentioned the utility of shield grab for ZSS (makes you stop running instead of sliding while grabbing, so you don't misposition and get punished taking on account that ZSS's grab is really slow)
This is useful for Lucas as well. :)
Dash grab is 2 frames slower so I'll be losing a frame on grabbing but his dash grab recovers 10 frames slower and has less range. So it's a decent trade-off.
"There are 2 kinds of grabs" immidietly stop watching because there are 3 types of grabs (you forgot pivot grabs) even though there might be useful info later on in this video.
EDIT: *watches video*
EDIT2: sad that it didn't help me :c
Pivot Grabs aren't really relevant on this issue since it's about grab approaches.
And if you want to run up to an opponent and use a pivot grab, you will definitely be slower ^^
-Risuno
+Beefy Smash Doods Oh after actually watching this video what you just said is obvious. Looking just at the intro it seemed like spreading misinnformation, because you said ther ARE only 2 types, not that only this 2 types will be relevant for the video.
+Sabaca Ye, kinda misleading.
Our B.
-Risuno
Pivot grabs are dash grabs. The "two kinds of grabs" he was referring to are dash grab and standing grab.
There's also the real shield grab that reduces damage dealt.
As a Ganon main, this is quite helpful. Thank you! ^_^
this might actually help me with my zss most of the time when I dash grab, I end up behind my opponent and whiff altogether leaving me open for a huge punish. and pivot grabbing doesn't make me launch forward and turn around unlike the dash grab. so thanks for this video.
So if the shield grab is done too soon, it becomes a Dash grab, and else it's a Standing grab? Well that explains why I can't land a grab with Captain Falcon, since I always grab using Shield + A, without really trying to time between both buttons.
Question: would it be faster to dash, shield while dashing, release shield and perform a tilt, or just wait for the dash to end, then perform a tilt?
Unrelated question: To beefy smash bros and others
Do you guys full jump with x or y or tap jump because i know they play tap jump on to do many other options like Up smash out of shield? Please and thank you
Wait a minute. Are jump-canceled grabs possible in this game? I guess I never really thought about it, haha.
capefeather Nah, they removed JC grabs after Brawl
2 types of grabs
Darnit Doods
Pivot grabs are literally completely different from the other grabs regular grabs.
Honestly against many players i've found that losing one frame to shield grabbing is a small price to pay for being able to shield anything they throw out. If someone is landing, whatever they use will be shielded and you will get the grab. If they airdodge, they have considerable endlag and you still get the grab. I really feel that shield grabbing is much better in most situations, losing one to two frames is definitely worth the time you can perfect shield their attacks.
"You have to hold the shield button for exactly 3 frames" - That was when I decided to continue watching just for fun. Dat wifi input delay tho.
For Villager it's a lot more useful to shieldgrab rather than dash grab, because standing grab has like 20 frames less cooldown.
+DL With It
^ This! I've had countless moments of barely Perfect Shielding punishes when I whiff a Shield Grab as Villager out of running because most opponents expect the extra 20 frames or so of endlag and depending on the move I can get a free Front Tilt or even an Up Smash.
This honestly wouldn't be needed if JC Grabs were still a thing ;-;
What about Cloud's limit grab? Like where you cancel a dash with a limit charge, then grab out of it, is that faster?
I found out about this a couple weeks ago by accident and called shield cancel grabbing but didn't think it would be practical so didn't share and now beefy smash doods are making a video about it. Lmao
* I didn't share it
The 3 frame shield grab is definitely worth because of lesser endlag imo
Can you go into the differences and benefits for Dash Attack Cancel Grabs (for characters like Little Mac) and Jump Cancel Grabs (for low-traction characters) in a future video? It seems like it could act as a good second part to this video.
Beefy Smash Doods, they teach you Smash techs you will never use in your life!
If you spindash right before you shield grab you'll slide forward a little. This can give sonic a really good grab
Does Lucas benefit from this? His standing grab is quick but I believe his running grab is still kinda slow despite the buff.
Does anyone actually think 1 or 2 frames makes a difference for GANONDORF. Maybe, MAYBE i can understand for Sonic or Fox but not Ganon.
in competitive play yes it does make a huge difference
+Kashew If you're playing Ganondorf competetively, you've already ditched frame data and trusted in your own reads and combos.
Champion Williamson Lol i play mario, cloud and sheik.
Pikachu looks cute when he rolled
This might be a to big request but do you know the frames of each characters? especially Zelda i'd like to know
Can you do a "how good is run cancel shielding/fox trotting" video? I use Lucas and I feel like I CAN'T do either of these. I need to know why ;-;. Beefy smash doods help
Great vid, do you have any data on which grab beats which if both players are trying to grab? Like the ideally timed dash grab vs standing grab, which grab will win?
I was just wondering about this earlier today, thanks for clarifying. should be situational on wii fit, is probably be a better option since less end lag, I'll start practicing!
if you shield stop as a natural form of stopping, this can be like clockwork to you.
Nice vid! I main fox so this will definitely be helpful :)
There are actually 3 types of grabs
-standing grab
-dash grab
-pivot grab
i had done some research on this before hand and found that on some characters like pacman, samus, and zss shield grabbing was significantly worse as frame data for dash and stand grabs were identical, range is way reduced, and stand grab was actually slower respectively. just some fun little tidbits i had gotten on my own research.
As a side question, will you guys be covering what ive called easy pivot's?
I miss jump cancel grabs so much...
Thanks for yet another great video!
I main Link and use Falcon as a secondary. Link has a tether so doesn't really matter and Falcon's dash grab is so good it's usually safe enough to use
pikachu's pivot grab is cute
If Cloud does a limit charge immediately cancelled into grab how does that compare?
A technique that can actually BENEFIT Ganon?
I feel like I'm gonna cry with happiness
So this would be like the Jump-cancelled dash grabs of melee?
Can you make a video about the different distances of Dash Attack and Roll cancelled grabs ?
But is Zero Suit Sheikalinanettachu a counterpick to pianos?
(After watching first 30s only)
Omg what this is a tech that exists?
So many times I have run through someone trying to dash grab on falcon ._.
(after watching the rest)
Since it wasn't stated(?) would shield grabs shorten the range of the grab? as in would you still have momentum and slide past while doing a standing grab or would it work the way I hope it does? :P
Bringing up your shield cancels all forward or backward momentum you may have, so I'd imagine that it works the way you seem to hope.
It shortens the range when compared to a dash grab, but the standing grab range is the same as the shield grab range, since they're the same thing.
With sonic you could spin dash and cancel it with a grab to make the input less precise as you will always get a standing grab and it may be faster but I have not tested it
With regards to sonic, Spin-dash shield cancelled shield grab goes even further i think?
Are there Pivot-Grabs in Smash4? And if, aren't they faster than shieldgrabs
This is actually useful for King Dedede as well, even though his dash grab is only 2 frames slower than standing grab (which makes running shield grab a 10 frame grab). Running shield grab is good because it ends up having 9 frames less of end lag than dash grab (which is lot of frames, which can really save you in a pinch if you whiff the grab).
I`d only use this as a mix up, however, as Dedede`s dash grab has substantially more range than standing grab.
I finally found another Dedede main! Can I ask you a question? Is it better to approach the enemy or make them approach you?
Deadknight237 It depends on the match up.
King Dedede is best played defensively, taking advantage of his exceptional ranged, disjointed hitboxes, so it's best to force them to approach you. King Dedede struggles against characters with good aerial mobility (ie, Yoshi, Jigglypuff), so you'll need to carefully keep them walled out with short hop back airs and full hop forward airs. Rush down characters such as Captain Falcon and Fox can be deterred from rushing in with up angled Gordos.
But, if you're playing against characters with good camp games, you'll need to be the one approaching, as King Dedede has nothing to beat camping otherwise. Mix up your approach with a combination of Gordos, short hop nairs, perfect pivot back airs, and shield dashing (especially shield Dashing so you can get power shields on projectiles).
I have an aggressive playstyle, but that's just my preference. I change my playstyle to suit the situation (tournament vs friendlies for example).
If there's anything else you'd like to know about the character, I'd be happy to share more with you. I'm currently ranked 5th in my local area, and I have the best King Dedede out of the 4 that main him here, even better the top seeded player who mains him (by his own admission!)
but doesn't it take a few frames for shield to come out when dashing?
I think it would have been more helpful if the opponent who rolled past the grabs put their shield up as fast as possible to see who gets frame advantage
Have you considered making a tutorial series for people interested in getting into higher level Smash play? A lot of the techniques on this channel are really interesting but almost impossible for people attempting to move up to jump into learning right away.
this is pretty simple. hes just saying if u stop dashing and block and then grab its safer for some characters than just doing a dash grab. its a difference of ~1 frame but in my opinion the 1 frame isnt worth the trouble unless youre using one of those 3 he mentioned.
I understand that, but I was suggesting he start a tutorial series for simpler techniques that don't have only a 1 frame window as well as these videos. Also it'd be cool if there were suggestions for methods of practicing or getting timings correct.
what should yoshi do?
His dash grab gives him a lot more range (enough to cover a roll back) but has like a full second of end lag. His shield grab on the other hand is pretty mediocre and also has a lot of end lag, just not as much
I guess it depends on what's needed at the moment, it's not like yoshi relies on grabs anyways
Are jump canceled grabs not a thing in sm4sh?
what about roll cancel grab? and how about perfect pivot grab vs pivot grab?
would it be beneficial for Lucas to do this so he doesn't have the end lag of a dash grab?
+jaime lopez Most of the time with Lucas you want to do PP retreating grabs to avoid punishes. But I guess if you want to take the risk, shield grabbing will reduce it a bit. So yes, it would benefit.
i'm gonna really quickly say that you can cancel rolls into grabs in what's called boost grabbing
also there are dash grabs that have a worse range than stand grabs, for example, duck hunt's
I thought this was a video about using the attack button to grab *while* shielding, which i thought had less power
Can you guys do a video next time about roll cancel grabs and dash attack cancel grabs?
What about little mac? I heard somewhere that doing this tech can actually give you a bit more range but i don't know if thats true.
Now don't certain characters actually have a longer standing grab range than dash grab? I'm fairly confident Palutena's (and maybe Mewtwo?) is significantly longer as a standing grab.. point being is, there may be a handful of other characters that may gain another advantage out of dash-shield grabs, depending on how many frames are lost vs. how much range is gained.
there are also reverse grabs if you count them seperate.
cool now i got some tech to work on with sonic. thanks doods :)
This tech helps out characters who use tether grabs because of how laggy their dash grabs can be. For example, Lucas is stuck in his standing grab until frame 46 while his dash grab is frame 56. This ten frame different could be the difference between a shield or smash. Other characters with tethers, like ZSS, who have minimal frame differences between their standing and dash grabs (69 frames for standing and 72 for dash) do not gain anything from this tech.
I usually do shield grabs all the time. I didn't know it isn't/is exactly the best grab for for other characters.
0:29 "Sports Team"
Do pivot grabs behave the same as dash grabs?
Would Pikachu be an exception because his ending animation on his Dash Grab is a lot longer than most others even though it would come out faster is you dash grab you wouldn't have as much end lag if you sheild grabed right.
thanks now i can play sonic in safer conditions than before