You’re bang on here, from the live audience, myself and David were checking the clock against the countout and it lasted just a fraction too long. We made it roughly 22 seconds from when Sawblaze goes over to when the countout ended (we had overview of the refs that match as well as the box). What you don’t see in the episode is Tantrum using their appeal, however they weren’t appealing the decision, more the countout and you can’t do that which the Tantrum team confirmed with us they then retracted said appeal. At that point, Sawblaze is winning the decision because while you could argue the damage caused to Sawblaze was greater in terms of reducing functionality of the bot (it was done in), you cannot award Tantrum all the damage points - it was in a bad way. Sawblaze was the Aggressor throughout the vast majority of the match, even going as far as to free Tantrum from being stuck and there is no doubt Sawblaze won on Control. Overall, an odd situation that could be solved with the upper deck tree visually pulsing red to count out, means that the refs have a visual cue to work with for their counts.
Even though I really wanted tantrum to win, I am not upset at all that it went to a JD and sawblaze won. I mean sawblaze was dominating most of the match and took half of tantrum's face off. For sawblaze to lose like that would have been a bit scummy. So I'm ok with this, this is a strong tantrum loss too. Also great video. Super well edited and very impressive to do all the research for every fight in s7/champions 2. Hope to see more of these videos in the future
Not gonna lie if Tantrum won I would've had PTSD from the Hydra fight xD It was cool to hear too that Tantrum retracted their appeal. And thank you! It took a long ass time to get going but it was a fun new idea and I love how it came out! Next piece is content is gonna be another curveball but fuck it we'll see what happens xD
@@ColeslawAndTheBarangoat oh yeah, I forgot they did an appeal. This was the ONLY appeal (I believe) that was not aired, which was strange. But the tantrum team wasn't appealing because of the JD but rather the count down. Though appeals are only meant for JD so they couldn't do anything about it anyway. Besides, like I said, even tho I really did wanted tantrum to win, there was no doubt sawblaze won it, so I'm not complaining. If tantrum (somehow) won the decision, I would be confused, plus I don't want to see another tantrum vs end game for the *4TH* time
Taking the entire fight aside I’m kind of glad Sawblaze won (not just cause I like them more) cause I didn’t want to see Tantrum v Endgame for the 4th time. (WC5, Golden Bolt 1, WC7, and Golden Bolt 2)
This fight was so entertaining, I was standing up in the middle of my living room, yelling random things. And then I was just saying “WHAT. WHAT JUST HAPPENED.” FIRST they had to decide if SawBlaze survived the bell or not, and THEN there would be MORE controversy as they decided who won
that's actually the reason behind a lot of fuzzy stuff: it's a production more than it is a tournament and teams will generally let the event organizers know about their logistics situation and that _does_ play a part in both the refs' behavior and judges decisions, they're also bizarrely good about helping eachother out though so it's not as hard a factor as you might think. there've been multiple finals in which one team was running on motors their opponents gave them and both teams had half a dozen other teams pitching in on getting the bots up and (mostly) running for that last match.
See, this video I'm ok with cause while it's talking about controversy, it's supposed to clear up some of the beef that's going on in the community. Tho tbf, I haven't seen much complaints around this topic at all. And this video highlights some key problems that could be addressed to prevent this from happening again [Unlike the riptide tier list video where it was so unnecessary]
Tbh, I would've taken it to the judges due to another thing. SawBlaze moved while the countout was happening at the halfway mark of the count, so therefore the countout should've been deemed null.
I wonder if a ref bot like classic robot wars had could work. It could accurately count out, put out fires and rescue bots stuck in hazards. Maybe it could even start on the upper deck to keep it out the way.
Hmmm... I still believe the count should've stood in Tantrum's favour. Thus, I personally think a KO countdown should be perfectly in sync with the clock. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a really hard job for the refs, and I respect what they do. I remember the reboot of Robot Wars had the judges press a button to start a KO count that was accurate to the second. I know this may be against tradition, but maybe Battlebots could use something like this...?
I think a JD to SawBlaze is correct here, but now that we see that all counts are slow, it's time to change something to prevent that from happening again xD When I started the planning the vid I had a feeling the count was normal, but 22nd/105 surprised me.
Hey I'm new to battlebots so take this with a grain of salt. When I watched this I didn't know about this controversy or your video but I did think the count didn't seem right. Your video explains one part of it for me but not everything. Since it is edited footage there is no way to know for sure but you can hear the ref tell the Sawblaze driver you have 5 seconds left before I start counting. Then he waits nearly 8 seconds before starting his 10 count. Questions are, was this just because of the way it was edited? How can the REF keep track of a 20 count properly if he is saying so much to driver? Is there any way to determine when he began the actual full 20 count and was that count done within the correct amount of time? With that said if If I was Tantrum I wouldn't want to take a win that way anyway but I think they should have had to do some type of future rematch and call this one a draw. I understand there may not be a precedent for that in battlebots but it would have been more fair.
Right now we're neck deep in producing BattleBots Reborn Cup, Season 7. High-tier Patrons are currently enjoying an early watch of the qualifiers ;) I wish I knew when the YT videos would be ready but we're making progress one bit at a time. As soon as I can nail down dates, y'all will know :)
Even if we give the refs a stop watch to count down with people are still going to eventually question weather or no the ref decided to start the count too early or too late. But like some of the points you made they have to take into account every situation. Some bots who explode into bits should get immediately counted out and other bots who have potential to move should be allowed a chance to show motion. That’s why we need the refs. Every sport hates on refs. But I think they the Battle bots refs do a good job. They can calm down about putting the transmitters down though.
I'm pretty sure I'm going off of an old version of the rules when saying all of this so Grain Of Salt warnings apply: the rules say that it is the ref's actions that matter not any specific explicit rules, the ref's actions also override any rules that conflict with the ref _and_ any judges (not actually sure how a ref _could_ possibly get into conflict with a judge but it was in the rules anyways for some reason). when attempting to find out more I could not find anything official on the referees guidelines in either the posted rules, past versions of the posted rules, or the online available event registration / builder guidelines / etc for the year in which I was looking this up past some additional qualifications on the fiddly details that can arise from there being a separate ref assigned to each team and everything unofficial (IE sus as heck stuff like twitter posts and the like) that I found in the span of a couple hours pretty much just said the refs have the ability and authority to almost completely make shit up as they go and answer to the producers first, the event organizers second, and anybody else *never* also literally every point at which anything relating to when they are supposed to start the count actually said something it said that the refs are unofficially supposed to delay it as much as possible (especially in the first half or so of a match) but aren't banned from rushing things or even counting out active bots...weirdly enough they _are_ explicitly prevented from counting out bots while their opponent is interacting with them but there is no specific duration listed for that delay so it's kinda a non-rule? I think it's put in there as an excuse. in practice this can get you stuff like a bot that gets exploded into various parts and scattered over half the arena 6 seconds into a match only actually being officially counted out 35-40 seconds in while a particularly dramatic hit two minutes into a match can result in a countdown starting before the receiving bot even finishes bouncing _but_ a bot can sit there disabled for two minutes straight while their opponent just keeps hitting them over and over again to prevent a count from starting if the refs don't feel like stepping in because they think it might make good TV (I never could find a reason why that doesn't also count as violating the pinning rules though). oh! right! on the subject of stuff that can often look like dubious ref behavior it is worth noting that teams will often agree before a match to hit eachother when pinned/stuck/etc to try to keep a match going, I couldn't find anything in the rules on that but the refs do seem to be informed and honor it and that is absolutely the kind of "minor detail" that an editor might leave out when constructing a narrative, keep in mind that these are the people that made Ray Billings out to be a sadistic asshole because sports writing standards say competitions need to have a Heel (basically a villain...kinda) when the whole reason he started doing any of this was to have something cool to do with his kid and didn't see any particular reason not to just treat everyone else like that while he was at it.
Tbh, both teams are okay with it and they just had a laugh so it's no big deal, however, battlebots should update their rules and specify how long a count-out is to avoid this situation in the future.
Yeah I'd say so. This count was "faster" overall, but there's definitely a slow count issue overall that should probably get addressed now, or else we'll have another fight like this xD
Can you talk about the Whiplash vs. JackPot! Fight? I would've given it to Whiplash. Here are the Categories and Reasons Why: Damage: JackPot! (4-1) Aggression: Whiplash (0-3) Control: Whiplash (1-2) Total: 6-5 (Whiplash, Split JD) Reasons - Damage: The wheel coming off, armor peeled back and lack of weapon use on Whiplash. However, it didn't affect its driving or mobility. JackPot!, when upside-down, could've had its weapon motors or its self-righter damaged. Also, since it nearly went into the screws a couple times, it might count as damage towards Whiplash on the scorecards. Aggression: Whiplash, despite its lost wheel, kept going into the face of JackPot!, and ended up with multiple attacks via slamming JackPot! into the walls or screws. Most of the attacks from Whiplash on JackPot! were successful, while only a couple were not. On the other side, JackPot! engaged less. Despite when he did, was either cornered and still using his weapon to inflict damage to Whiplash or trying to get some space to hit Whiplash. However, when the front armor was peeled up on Whiplash, JackPot! had multiple opportunities to attack, but didn't, taking away Aggression points. Control: Like Aggression, Control allowed both bots to control certain portions. However, Whiplash edges out JackPot! Again, like Aggression, we see Whiplash slamming JackPot! into the walls and screws.
You’re bang on here, from the live audience, myself and David were checking the clock against the countout and it lasted just a fraction too long. We made it roughly 22 seconds from when Sawblaze goes over to when the countout ended (we had overview of the refs that match as well as the box).
What you don’t see in the episode is Tantrum using their appeal, however they weren’t appealing the decision, more the countout and you can’t do that which the Tantrum team confirmed with us they then retracted said appeal. At that point, Sawblaze is winning the decision because while you could argue the damage caused to Sawblaze was greater in terms of reducing functionality of the bot (it was done in), you cannot award Tantrum all the damage points - it was in a bad way. Sawblaze was the Aggressor throughout the vast majority of the match, even going as far as to free Tantrum from being stuck and there is no doubt Sawblaze won on Control.
Overall, an odd situation that could be solved with the upper deck tree visually pulsing red to count out, means that the refs have a visual cue to work with for their counts.
Even though I really wanted tantrum to win, I am not upset at all that it went to a JD and sawblaze won. I mean sawblaze was dominating most of the match and took half of tantrum's face off. For sawblaze to lose like that would have been a bit scummy. So I'm ok with this, this is a strong tantrum loss too.
Also great video. Super well edited and very impressive to do all the research for every fight in s7/champions 2. Hope to see more of these videos in the future
Not gonna lie if Tantrum won I would've had PTSD from the Hydra fight xD It was cool to hear too that Tantrum retracted their appeal.
And thank you! It took a long ass time to get going but it was a fun new idea and I love how it came out! Next piece is content is gonna be another curveball but fuck it we'll see what happens xD
@@ColeslawAndTheBarangoat oh yeah, I forgot they did an appeal. This was the ONLY appeal (I believe) that was not aired, which was strange. But the tantrum team wasn't appealing because of the JD but rather the count down. Though appeals are only meant for JD so they couldn't do anything about it anyway. Besides, like I said, even tho I really did wanted tantrum to win, there was no doubt sawblaze won it, so I'm not complaining. If tantrum (somehow) won the decision, I would be confused, plus I don't want to see another tantrum vs end game for the *4TH* time
Damn can't believe you put that much effort into this. appreciated
Thank you!
Taking the entire fight aside I’m kind of glad Sawblaze won (not just cause I like them more) cause I didn’t want to see Tantrum v Endgame for the 4th time. (WC5, Golden Bolt 1, WC7, and Golden Bolt 2)
I still think Seems Reasonable Tantrum should gone with the S5 Wedge cause thats how they beat SawBlaze
well they didnt have it
Otherwise they would have used it....
@@kingkionarmy9538 that its a very AWFUL idea
But thank God they didnt fight any Horizontal Spinner this season
Wow, this is like mystrsyko levels of analyzing fight data
We must carry on his legacy :')
This fight was so entertaining, I was standing up in the middle of my living room, yelling random things. And then I was just saying “WHAT. WHAT JUST HAPPENED.” FIRST they had to decide if SawBlaze survived the bell or not, and THEN there would be MORE controversy as they decided who won
That idiot ref always considers “one” to be the end of the countdown.
This type of BattleBots content we need! The analysis was incredible! What do you use to edit?
Thank you so much! Just Adobe Premiere Pro and Photoshop for graphics
I wonder if team Seems Reasonable could have even repaired Tantrum quick enough to take place in the finals.
True it looked like there was a lot to do :/
that's actually the reason behind a lot of fuzzy stuff: it's a production more than it is a tournament and teams will generally let the event organizers know about their logistics situation and that _does_ play a part in both the refs' behavior and judges decisions, they're also bizarrely good about helping eachother out though so it's not as hard a factor as you might think. there've been multiple finals in which one team was running on motors their opponents gave them and both teams had half a dozen other teams pitching in on getting the bots up and (mostly) running for that last match.
See, this video I'm ok with cause while it's talking about controversy, it's supposed to clear up some of the beef that's going on in the community. Tho tbf, I haven't seen much complaints around this topic at all. And this video highlights some key problems that could be addressed to prevent this from happening again
[Unlike the riptide tier list video where it was so unnecessary]
Tbh, I would've taken it to the judges due to another thing. SawBlaze moved while the countout was happening at the halfway mark of the count, so therefore the countout should've been deemed null.
I wonder if a ref bot like classic robot wars had could work. It could accurately count out, put out fires and rescue bots stuck in hazards. Maybe it could even start on the upper deck to keep it out the way.
OMG THEY SHOULD GIVE IT MONSTER TRUCK WHEELS xD
Even if Tantrum did get the win, I don’t think the final results of the Golden Bolt would change.
I do feel like Sawblaze deserved this win though
Hmmm... I still believe the count should've stood in Tantrum's favour. Thus, I personally think a KO countdown should be perfectly in sync with the clock. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a really hard job for the refs, and I respect what they do.
I remember the reboot of Robot Wars had the judges press a button to start a KO count that was accurate to the second. I know this may be against tradition, but maybe Battlebots could use something like this...?
I think a JD to SawBlaze is correct here, but now that we see that all counts are slow, it's time to change something to prevent that from happening again xD When I started the planning the vid I had a feeling the count was normal, but 22nd/105 surprised me.
Hey I'm new to battlebots so take this with a grain of salt. When I watched this I didn't know about this controversy or your video but I did think the count didn't seem right. Your video explains one part of it for me but not everything. Since it is edited footage there is no way to know for sure but you can hear the ref tell the Sawblaze driver you have 5 seconds left before I start counting. Then he waits nearly 8 seconds before starting his 10 count. Questions are, was this just because of the way it was edited? How can the REF keep track of a 20 count properly if he is saying so much to driver? Is there any way to determine when he began the actual full 20 count and was that count done within the correct amount of time? With that said if If I was Tantrum I wouldn't want to take a win that way anyway but I think they should have had to do some type of future rematch and call this one a draw. I understand there may not be a precedent for that in battlebots but it would have been more fair.
Is there any more Robot Wars & Battlebots Reborn events?
Right now we're neck deep in producing BattleBots Reborn Cup, Season 7. High-tier Patrons are currently enjoying an early watch of the qualifiers ;)
I wish I knew when the YT videos would be ready but we're making progress one bit at a time. As soon as I can nail down dates, y'all will know :)
There is one glaring omission from this all…
Is Magik a cat?
Tests inconclusive, we'll have to get back to you xD
Besides, they proved in the episode that the bell beat the ref in the countout.
I wish that was enough, but people on Facebook were shouting all sorts of nonsense that week xD
Even if we give the refs a stop watch to count down with people are still going to eventually question weather or no the ref decided to start the count too early or too late. But like some of the points you made they have to take into account every situation. Some bots who explode into bits should get immediately counted out and other bots who have potential to move should be allowed a chance to show motion. That’s why we need the refs. Every sport hates on refs. But I think they the Battle bots refs do a good job. They can calm down about putting the transmitters down though.
I think people are so used to calling WWE or the NFL rigged that they're conditioned to claim that towards everything xD
I'm pretty sure I'm going off of an old version of the rules when saying all of this so Grain Of Salt warnings apply:
the rules say that it is the ref's actions that matter not any specific explicit rules, the ref's actions also override any rules that conflict with the ref _and_ any judges (not actually sure how a ref _could_ possibly get into conflict with a judge but it was in the rules anyways for some reason). when attempting to find out more I could not find anything official on the referees guidelines in either the posted rules, past versions of the posted rules, or the online available event registration / builder guidelines / etc for the year in which I was looking this up past some additional qualifications on the fiddly details that can arise from there being a separate ref assigned to each team and everything unofficial (IE sus as heck stuff like twitter posts and the like) that I found in the span of a couple hours pretty much just said the refs have the ability and authority to almost completely make shit up as they go and answer to the producers first, the event organizers second, and anybody else *never*
also literally every point at which anything relating to when they are supposed to start the count actually said something it said that the refs are unofficially supposed to delay it as much as possible (especially in the first half or so of a match) but aren't banned from rushing things or even counting out active bots...weirdly enough they _are_ explicitly prevented from counting out bots while their opponent is interacting with them but there is no specific duration listed for that delay so it's kinda a non-rule? I think it's put in there as an excuse. in practice this can get you stuff like a bot that gets exploded into various parts and scattered over half the arena 6 seconds into a match only actually being officially counted out 35-40 seconds in while a particularly dramatic hit two minutes into a match can result in a countdown starting before the receiving bot even finishes bouncing _but_ a bot can sit there disabled for two minutes straight while their opponent just keeps hitting them over and over again to prevent a count from starting if the refs don't feel like stepping in because they think it might make good TV (I never could find a reason why that doesn't also count as violating the pinning rules though).
oh! right! on the subject of stuff that can often look like dubious ref behavior it is worth noting that teams will often agree before a match to hit eachother when pinned/stuck/etc to try to keep a match going, I couldn't find anything in the rules on that but the refs do seem to be informed and honor it and that is absolutely the kind of "minor detail" that an editor might leave out when constructing a narrative, keep in mind that these are the people that made Ray Billings out to be a sadistic asshole because sports writing standards say competitions need to have a Heel (basically a villain...kinda) when the whole reason he started doing any of this was to have something cool to do with his kid and didn't see any particular reason not to just treat everyone else like that while he was at it.
Nice video
Thank you!
Tbh, both teams are okay with it and they just had a laugh so it's no big deal, however, battlebots should update their rules and specify how long a count-out is to avoid this situation in the future.
Yeah this time it worked out okay, but the next one might not :o
So does this mean Sawblaze deserved to win
Yeah I'd say so. This count was "faster" overall, but there's definitely a slow count issue overall that should probably get addressed now, or else we'll have another fight like this xD
Hi
Hi :D
Can you talk about the Whiplash vs. JackPot! Fight?
I would've given it to Whiplash. Here are the Categories and Reasons Why:
Damage: JackPot! (4-1)
Aggression: Whiplash (0-3)
Control: Whiplash (1-2)
Total: 6-5 (Whiplash, Split JD)
Reasons -
Damage: The wheel coming off, armor peeled back and lack of weapon use on Whiplash. However, it didn't affect its driving or mobility. JackPot!, when upside-down, could've had its weapon motors or its self-righter damaged. Also, since it nearly went into the screws a couple times, it might count as damage towards Whiplash on the scorecards.
Aggression: Whiplash, despite its lost wheel, kept going into the face of JackPot!, and ended up with multiple attacks via slamming JackPot! into the walls or screws. Most of the attacks from Whiplash on JackPot! were successful, while only a couple were not. On the other side, JackPot! engaged less. Despite when he did, was either cornered and still using his weapon to inflict damage to Whiplash or trying to get some space to hit Whiplash. However, when the front armor was peeled up on Whiplash, JackPot! had multiple opportunities to attack, but didn't, taking away Aggression points.
Control: Like Aggression, Control allowed both bots to control certain portions. However, Whiplash edges out JackPot! Again, like Aggression, we see Whiplash slamming JackPot! into the walls and screws.
Im just happy tantrum didn’t win, its just a wedge with a tiny “weapon”
that beats Sawblaze the last time they met
I think the design itself is interesting enough though
It does some good damage for how big the weapon is. Not to mention how awesome it is with the puncher.