Winterfell having crypts at all, and especially as such a center part, surprised me when i learned about the history. As something that was build as an reaction to the others you think they wouldn't leave any bodies, even if firewood is valuable during winter times. It just seems natural that a society who has been threatened by the dead would adapt a custom of ritual buring, like the wildlings do. So they MUST serve an important purpose if they'd take such a risk or be imperceptible to the white walker magic. otherwise it would not make any sense to grow an army for the enemy in your own cellar. they must be a weapon and we will see them (hopefully)
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 Still doesn’t make sense, you could avoid having to worry about it with a funeral pyre. And Ned says in one of his chapters that the older kings iron swords have rusted away leaving only red stains on their laps where they once laid. There has to be a purpose behind it, possibly part of the pact with the children.
As far as the crypts go, I think that the collapsed part is covering the passage to the wall. It was collapsed to keep the others from getting in. I also think that the swords across the laps of the kings of winter is not really to keep the spirits in, but a warning against and wights or others that they are not welcome, just as Rob sat with his unsheathed sword across his lap when Tyrion visited Winterfell. I think that Bran will warge the kings of Winter against the others.
Winterfell is a faerie mound. But the magic has faded. So it's less alive than it used to be. The roots of the tree ARE the crypts. If you're down there, you're literally INSIDE the tree.
I was about to make the same observation - with the addition that, I've always thought that much of the power of the Wyrwood, especially when it came to its ability to 'see' (albeit through the eyes of the crows/ravens that inhabit their branches - and, incidentally also used by the Meisters for communication), was because their ancient root systems were connected (as touched on by Joe Buckley at around 25 minutes).
@@ChristomirRackov Right. How crazy would that be in a fantasy story about Dragons and dire wolves and wood elves and ice zombies and sorcerers and witches and mages and prophecies and fire zombies and stone men and fire magic and giant ice walls and trees with faces that talk and open and let you walk through. Impossible, absurd.
@@Ash.Crow.Goddess LOL! Even a magical fantasy setting has to have some internal logic and some restraint, so that readers can immerse themselves in it. In any world, no matter how magical, a tree with individual roots that are several meters thick would be indeed absurd (without the sarcasm you are putting in that word) - such roots would mean the tree itself would have been taller than the Wall, probably. Have you read anywhere (like in TWoIaF) about a super-giant tree like that ever having existed in the world of Planetos?
I mean a large part of it is based on Norse Mythology where the universe is a tree. Robert himself has suggested that perhaps the trees are one large organism connected under the ground of the whole continent. Then there's real life: Sweeping across 107 acres of Utah's Fishlake National Forest is one of the world's largest organisms: a forest of some 47,000 genetically identical quaking aspen trees, which all stem from a single root system. And GRRM has stated that he likes to take his inspiration from the real world, and crank it all the way up.
as deciduous trees grow older and larger, they become hollow in the middle, with the only "live" parts being a few inches under the outer bark. it would seem probable the same process is going on with the weirwood roots. hollow centers i.e. caves used by bran, and if they do connect with other trees forming a network, then both the living outer roots connect with other trees sharing "information" and their hollow sections forming tunnels connecting between them.
You didn't talk enough of the first keep! From wiki of ice and fire: "The First Keep has been rebuilt numerous times, so its origin is uncertain. Some believe it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet determined the round tower in its current form was built after the coming of the Andals, since the First Men and early Andals constructed square fortifications." The gargoyles and the round building technic suggest foreign people. Like Storms end and the High Tower I think the first keep was built by people from the Greate Empire of the Dawn! That's what the code Brandon the builder means I think! And that means that the Starks themselves are descendants from the east, from around the time of The long night! And from the fused stone of the five forts and the base of the Hightower we know they where dragonriders as well!
I think Bloodraven’s cave tells all. It seems that at one point the entire world was connected by a subterranean world/highway. Maybe the collapsed section represents the Starks trying to forget or hide something?
At the very least it's canon that the Weirwoods were one giant organism stretching from the Frostfangs to Dorne, connected by roots like the great American redwood.
Great episode of this new series. Seems like a slightly more focused version of the live stream studies. I love the symbolism of Freys ending in pie and also frozen in the lakes. Fire cooked them and ice froze them. Sure, a bit of a reach, but still...
Thanks for another fascinating video Robert! And thanks to Joe too, he's one of my favourite guests you've had on and you two have a great rapport. Your theory on the Horn of Winter raising the Stark dead has intrigued me for a long time (I still remember the first time I watched your video several years back). Joe mentioned the Wheel of Time, which reminded me of the Horn of Valere- blowing that raised the 'giants' of history, maybe this be a nod to that as well as the dead men of Dunharrow.
Great conversation guys. I like the idea that the stautes of all the Starks in the crypts begin to move and protect the castle from the Others, its similar to the Deadmen of Dunnharrow in Return of the King.
@@AdrianMendoza23 Imagine the ancient Kings of Winter and Kings of the North slowly detaching themselves from their tombs to fight alongside their kin. Their cold grey eyes glowing from their stone faces, grim and fear as they slowly rises from the crypt. I can imagine now the Boltons guarding Winterfell getting flayed by the ancient and recent Starks themsleves
Wonderful, Robert. Thanks for this! And, Ser Buckley (Joe). You guys ROCK! 🤘🏻 “Old Nan story time” is now @in deep geek carrying on that tradition. 😂❤️
Also don’t forget being a nights watchman use to be an honor and people willing went there or sent sons . Now almost all people there are criminals. It’s pretty easy to see how they lost their way
I love the idea of the others using the caves and tunnels that are scattered about. GRRM called the athers "Shea"? I think which means something like people of the mounds. They came from underground. It would also explained how the others move about without anyone noticing
I always kind of felt that the Wierwood tree in winter fell was planted there. Bran in one of his visions see the tree and mentions it being smaller. Would the builder have built winterfell around a random wierwood sapling?
I love Sansa so much and so many video essayists clearly loathe her and it’s so refreshing and wonderful to see two smart gentlemen talking about her in a way that makes sense and is interesting and different than other theories I’ve heard.
I think the dragon in Winterfell is John and possibly the grave of an ancient ancestor of the dragon lords from the Empire of the Dawn. Azor Ahai perhaps?
I normally don’t watch podcast style TH-cam videos, just because the format isn’t it for me (in general, not specific to you). Two minutes into this video I realize this is a completely different beast, and I need to devote more time so I can watch it fully. If it continues to be what I think it is, I will watch everyone of these you make!
At this point in the books supposedly ‘only’ 2 left why would there suddenly be this previously unknown subway system underneath Winterfell connecting them to the Wall, Dragonstone or more? Secret Hidden Dragons?? It’s the introduction of new information like this that’s causing GRRM such a delay in finishing his tale. Take what’s been presented 1-5 and start wrapping up the story.
Winterfell and Storms End are both warded by Gargoyles. Only mentions of them other then dragonstone. Gargoyles were made to protect people from evil in RL.
To me it seems heavily inspired by the Watchers at Cirith Ungol in LOTR. Monstrous statues inhabited by spirits - preventing enemies from passing through sheer force of will.
I always thought it odd that one man ( bran the builder) built such super structures ( the wall, storms end, winterfell) for the times in one lifetime. I mean just one would take a lifetime.
Dang I missed this episode but I will catch the next one excellent concept, hope we go through old Nan whom I believe had more T to spread then she has or Re-examining what she said through her words of wisdom and her stories
I like the arc of Winterfell as you’ve described. Don’t forget it’s been profaned by the Boltons, and Ramsey having married a false Stark may be the lowest point in its long history. The North remembers. The current coalition ensconced in Winterfell will definitely turn on the Boltons the first chance they get. I dint put it together that Bran was watching himself being sacrificed. I thought he could tasted the blood simply because it soaked into the ground and the weirwood could taste it. Love your stuff!
Thank you so much for this! When I got the notif I was really hoping it would be with Joe too. This was an excellent surprise that absolutely brightened my day! Yay! 💖
This made me think that the books may well end with the re-emergence of Edric Storm to continue the fight for the Iron throne. Long nights come and go but the game of thrones is eternal. Also Dragonstone is linked to Winterfell through geo thermal properties. But is this not why when fleeing the doom that Aenar chose Dragonstone, as it shared geothermal properties with Valyria ? So maybe the question could be what links all three. It simply be Starks. Tunnels from the Wall to Winterfell would give Jon a convenient route back when he emerges from Ghost. This also negates Shireen having to be sacrificed at the wall as with my tin foil firmly pressed on . I think Melisandre has not seen the true prophecy yet again and that the dragon she will awaken is the wroth of Dany, with the destruction of innocent Shireen through sacrifice. I could see the dragons being loosed on Mel, Stannis and the followers of the lord of light as a satisfying end. Lastly when Rickon shows up he will be completely wild, if you consider what he has experienced as a young child ,to then living with a spearwife likely amongst the cannibals (if the stories are to be believed) on Skagos. He should be as far from a lord of Winterfell as the Weeper.
Another mystery at Winterfell solved. LF 100% sent the cats paw. LF life/plots summed up. Childhood with Tully’s, falls for Kat, Lysa falls for LF (he takes her virginity while drunk, thinks it’s Kat). Says he loves Kat, fights Brandon, gets a visit.... from the 3 eyed crow. Gets sent away, Lysa is forced to take Tansy. Fast forward, Lysa gets him to the vale where he shines. He knocks up Lysa, pretends sweet robin is the rightful heir. (Explains why he’s small, sickly dreamer) Fast forward again... after building up a huge amount of debt to Bravos, LF convinces Lysa to poison Jon and write Kat a letter blaming the Lannister’s. He sends the Catspaw up with The dagger. Possibly mind controls the simpleton, if not he’s a “Florian the fool”. He is the first person to intercept Kat when she arrives in Kings Landing before they can do any snooping, and we don’t blink an eye because he says Varys told him. He then helps Ned find the “truth” Jon A died for.... gives good council to Ned while setting him up to fail, making sure he comes out on top no matter what happens. He betrays Ned, convinces Jeoff to kill Ned, and has his men rdy to act (slint/Ilyn) Then he sees immense growth in power, sets up The red wedding, steals Sansa flees to the vale. He’s set himself up to bring Westeros to it’s knees and leave himself standing. Chaos is a ladder
So what exactly counts/counted as a "Stark" in WInterfell? We know they tended to intermarry with their Norther vassals rather than with major houses in the south, so isn't it likely since the Boltons were one of their primary bannermen, that they'd have Stark blood from several different generations in the lineage? Would Jon count so long as his last name is Snow or is he disqualified because his father turns out to be a Targaryean? If Sansa becomes queen/lady of Winterfell, would she count if she marries? Would her children if they take her husband's name? Will she be that last of the line (e.g. the Elizabeth I of the story)? Is "Stark" simply being used as a synonym for "Lord of Winterfell" since they've been one and the same for so long? Does it have to be a direct descendant of Bran the Bulider? How could you even guarantee that over thousands of years?
I think Stark is a way of being more than simply the blood line. There's the principles of the Starks that even if the Bolton's have the blood they don't follow the principles. Jon is very Stark like even if his father isn't
So much of the story points out that this patriarchal society is obsessed with "blood", but for most of them that means whether or not one has nobility or born within marriage, not "blood" in "analog for genetics sense except for the Starks (the wolf blood) or the Targaryen's (the dragon blood, blood and fire) . The point is that the story as a whole seems to be full of people who get their physical and personality trait from their MOTHERS, due to that "blood". Sansa can't marry out of her Stark blood/"Wolf" blood, which they say she has less of than Arya, for example, but both of course through their FATHER , Jon cannot be legitimized into his Stark blood, HE HAS IT ANYHOW via his mother Lyana, who was grey eyed and adventurous like Arya. *And of course it seems that almost nobody in the first book has a clue to the obvious fact that King Robert's actual children look like HIM, not their various Moms, because the "blood is strong".*
The whole series in fact seems to be full of people who seem to forget that children often resemble their mothers- except of course when someone like Queen Cersei is insisting, for her very own reasons, that this is the case!
Sansa might very well control Winterfell and the Eyrie, if she marries Harry the heir, and Sweet Robin dies- especially if she has a child or two with Harry and then HE dies.
I have wondered about two related points. 1) Whether the underground tunnels at Winterfell, and in other parts of Westeros, were originally home to the Children of the Forest. Perhaps at one point they spanned the whole continent, linking up the roots of the Weirwoods. The Children of the Forest may have retreated into the tunnels during their conflict with the First Men? 2) On Winterfell specifically... Is it possible that this is the site where the Last Hero found the Children of the Forest? I'm imagining them living in tunnels beneath the Weirwood, which would then have been located inside a much larger forest. The remnants of that forest would be the Godswood and the Wolfswood, and the tunnels are now the Crypt? If John is the Last Hero/ Azor Ahai reborn, then it might explain why he dreams about the Crypts.
The most important thing to remember about Winterfell is that it was the "capital" of the Starks at first but then the "Capital" of the North, many of the additional buildings like the Library we likely added to facilitate Winterfell's role as a capital for the Northmen, culturally
Very confused that I had missed an hour long live stream even though I had only been away from the 'Tube for 40 mins. Then I realised this was not a livestream.
I kind of just had a little epiphany listening to this when you said" there must always be a stark in winterfell" and then you mentioned the connection between the wall and winterfell and the night fort and winterfell and tunnels. And what is the way to cross the wall by saying the oath of The night's watch. So you have to be a brother to pass so maybe " there must always be a stark and winterfell" to be able to access the tunnels between the wall and winterfell. Like I said there's no proof but it would be really cool and that could be a little subtle connection
So if you take: the horn of winter wakes the dead Starks and Jon dreamed he HAS to go to the crypt and R+L=J. Would that mean Jon could meet his mother Lyanna in the crypt? (As he remains and her statue is there as well).
@@210SAi why? Uncovering something that har been unknown is something he does alot of. Underground tunnels all over westeros might be cheap, but might be nessesery.. And would be fucking awesome!
The one thing that surprises me, or maybe just make me think. Is that crime is rampant, and not to mention there's gotta be some men, who would love to serve in the night's guard. How are their numbers so few? I'd have guessed there'd be regular caravans of criminals from all over westeros?
I have to keep reminding myself that Winterfell is not a real place and we can't just create a GoFundMe for an archaeological expedition to uncover its secrets. Sigh...I've been in isolation too long.
Wasn't Dragon Stone made much later after the Targaryens arrived in Westeros? I feel like that diminishes the likelihood that it is connected to Winterfell in some way.
Jessie C I think it was created 100 years before the Doom. But don’t quote me on that lol. I remember reading the Targs left Valyria after one of their ancestors had a vision of the Doom. Once Valyria was gone, Aegon I began the conquest.
Ok so I tried to look it up and according to one wiki I found: Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder sometime shortly after the Long Night, which was 8 thousand years before the current story. Dragonstone, on the other hand, was made by Valyrians with fire magic 2 centuries before the Doom of Valyria, which itself was about 1 century before Aegon's conquest, which itself was about 3 centuries before the current story (so it was built roughly 6 centuries ago). There is a huge gap between 8 thousand years ago and 600 years ago, plus the castles were built by two very different groups of people. While the castles' similarities might have a symbolic meaning in the story, I think it's unlikely that it's proof they were deliberately built to be mirrors of each other or have a magical/practical connection to each other within the world of the story.
Sansas story arc.... starts as the Maiden ends as an inversion of the maiden. Ned=Father, ends wrongfully accuses with no justice Kat=mother, ends “childless” watching her first born die Rob=Warrior never lost a battle, died at wedding. Aria=stranger, will die but live again as Nymeria Bran=the cron, he being manipulated Rickon=the Smith, he ant rebuilding shit. Think Sana’a will be a late bloomer, and warg a “little bird”.... likely a mocking bird... to bring down LF. And replace him as the most ruthless player of the game.
I haven’t fully watched this yet, I was trying to find a video that was the third in a series and it’s summarized the first two and being the third built on that and expanded a bit more dealing with why there must always be a stark in Winterfell and what was beneath the cripts. I’m guessing this video covers it, but there was a short version and if that video still exists or it’s been removed, would love an explanation, if it does exist and if it doesn’t, what happened please? I swear I’ve watched it and I’ve spent quite a while. Trying to find it to send to my brother to watch. If this video covers everything I’ve mentioned then that’s fine but I just know I watched those other shorter videos and for the life of me I can’t find them. Did I enter a parallel universe, where those videos existed for a day lol :-) I’ve gone back through my watch history and everything Tried typing in one of the names of the videos or I was pretty close to what I thought one of the names were. Anyway, any information is much appreciated please, and thank you.
25:07 where's that picture from? It's not in the show, so was that like some promotional pictures taken, or just like that Sean Bean wanted a picture taken of him personally or something?
Last scene tin foil hat theory. He who delivers the sentence should swing the sword. Finish where we started, a stark executing a convict. The stark being Lady Sansa and the convict being Little finger. He looks up at the face so much like the woman he obsessed over, as she brings down Widow's wail.
God I hated show Sansa by the end... but book Sansa? I'd be okay with her as Queen. I want an independent North, and with Bran as King elsewhere, Rickon likely dead, Jon exiled, and Arya... well... she never wanted to be a lady, let alone a queen - and she is younger. Sansa seems the best if not only option. (One that most readers I feel can root for)
Winterfell having crypts at all, and especially as such a center part, surprised me when i learned about the history. As something that was build as an reaction to the others you think they wouldn't leave any bodies, even if firewood is valuable during winter times. It just seems natural that a society who has been threatened by the dead would adapt a custom of ritual buring, like the wildlings do. So they MUST serve an important purpose if they'd take such a risk or be imperceptible to the white walker magic. otherwise it would not make any sense to grow an army for the enemy in your own cellar. they must be a weapon and we will see them (hopefully)
The swords is supposed to keep the dead in place. Could be protection against the Others magic.
@@jonhauge-evaldsson783 Still doesn’t make sense, you could avoid having to worry about it with a funeral pyre. And Ned says in one of his chapters that the older kings iron swords have rusted away leaving only red stains on their laps where they once laid. There has to be a purpose behind it, possibly part of the pact with the children.
The thought of Others coming through a tunnel into Winterfell is really scary. Like really scary.
As far as the crypts go, I think that the collapsed part is covering the passage to the wall. It was collapsed to keep the others from getting in. I also think that the swords across the laps of the kings of winter is not really to keep the spirits in, but a warning against and wights or others that they are not welcome, just as Rob sat with his unsheathed sword across his lap when Tyrion visited Winterfell. I think that Bran will warge the kings of Winter against the others.
Winterfell is a faerie mound. But the magic has faded. So it's less alive than it used to be. The roots of the tree ARE the crypts. If you're down there, you're literally INSIDE the tree.
Nah, the roots can't be THAT thick...LOL
I was about to make the same observation - with the addition that, I've always thought that much of the power of the Wyrwood, especially when it came to its ability to 'see' (albeit through the eyes of the crows/ravens that inhabit their branches - and, incidentally also used by the Meisters for communication), was because their ancient root systems were connected (as touched on by Joe Buckley at around 25 minutes).
@@ChristomirRackov Right. How crazy would that be in a fantasy story about Dragons and dire wolves and wood elves and ice zombies and sorcerers and witches and mages and prophecies and fire zombies and stone men and fire magic and giant ice walls and trees with faces that talk and open and let you walk through. Impossible, absurd.
@@Ash.Crow.Goddess LOL!
Even a magical fantasy setting has to have some internal logic and some restraint, so that readers can immerse themselves in it. In any world, no matter how magical, a tree with individual roots that are several meters thick would be indeed absurd (without the sarcasm you are putting in that word) - such roots would mean the tree itself would have been taller than the Wall, probably.
Have you read anywhere (like in TWoIaF) about a super-giant tree like that ever having existed in the world of Planetos?
I mean a large part of it is based on Norse Mythology where the universe is a tree. Robert himself has suggested that perhaps the trees are one large organism connected under the ground of the whole continent. Then there's real life: Sweeping across 107 acres of Utah's Fishlake National Forest is one of the world's largest organisms: a forest of some 47,000 genetically identical quaking aspen trees, which all stem from a single root system. And GRRM has stated that he likes to take his inspiration from the real world, and crank it all the way up.
I like this kind of format. You have less disruptions from the narrative by not having to answer questions..
I love this topic and discussion Robert! Thanks for inviting Isle of Faces!
as deciduous trees grow older and larger, they become hollow in the middle, with the only "live" parts being a few inches under the outer bark. it would seem probable the same process is going on with the weirwood roots. hollow centers i.e. caves used by bran, and if they do connect with other trees forming a network, then both the living outer roots connect with other trees sharing "information" and their hollow sections forming tunnels connecting between them.
I wasnt expecting this at all.Amazing surprise.
You didn't talk enough of the first keep! From wiki of ice and fire:
"The First Keep has been rebuilt numerous times, so its origin is uncertain. Some believe it was built by the First Men, but Maester Kennet determined the round tower in its current form was built after the coming of the Andals, since the First Men and early Andals constructed square fortifications."
The gargoyles and the round building technic suggest foreign people. Like Storms end and the High Tower I think the first keep was built by people from the Greate Empire of the Dawn! That's what the code Brandon the builder means I think! And that means that the Starks themselves are descendants from the east, from around the time of The long night! And from the fused stone of the five forts and the base of the Hightower we know they where dragonriders as well!
I think Bloodraven’s cave tells all. It seems that at one point the entire world was connected by a subterranean world/highway. Maybe the collapsed section represents the Starks trying to forget or hide something?
I agree! I think the crypts were part of the children's cave network.
andrea johnson
*In James Earl Jones voice•
This is CCN
O G I guess my background in journalistic writing is showing again lol 😂
At the very least it's canon that the Weirwoods were one giant organism stretching from the Frostfangs to Dorne, connected by roots like the great American redwood.
Just like In the house of the worm where they all live underground in massive endless tunnels and stuff. Might be a prequel to ASoIaF.
You couldn't have started with a better subject or a better guest! Loved this!
Great episode of this new series. Seems like a slightly more focused version of the live stream studies.
I love the symbolism of Freys ending in pie and also frozen in the lakes. Fire cooked them and ice froze them. Sure, a bit of a reach, but still...
I love the format and this was a great conversation. Always love a deeper dive into the locations. Another great job, Robert and Joe!
Robert, this could be one of my new favorite Live-streams! I love when you mix it up!
Love the mention of the cave systems elsewhere in Westeros, I've always been so intrigued about the tunnel networks.
Really enjoyed listening to this bloke, Robert.
Love the idea of a volcanic connection between Winterfell and Dragonstone. Interesting idea to compare them.
Thanks for another fascinating video Robert! And thanks to Joe too, he's one of my favourite guests you've had on and you two have a great rapport.
Your theory on the Horn of Winter raising the Stark dead has intrigued me for a long time (I still remember the first time I watched your video several years back). Joe mentioned the Wheel of Time, which reminded me of the Horn of Valere- blowing that raised the 'giants' of history, maybe this be a nod to that as well as the dead men of Dunharrow.
Great conversation guys. I like the idea that the stautes of all the Starks in the crypts begin to move and protect the castle from the Others, its similar to the Deadmen of Dunnharrow in Return of the King.
like the Old Wall of Lucis in Final Fantasy XV. where the old rulers were literally the last line of defense of the Kingdom of Lucis
@@nyxebit8200 I've never played Final Fantasy but it sounds epic.
@@AdrianMendoza23 Imagine the ancient Kings of Winter and Kings of the North slowly detaching themselves from their tombs to fight alongside their kin. Their cold grey eyes glowing from their stone faces, grim and fear as they slowly rises from the crypt. I can imagine now the Boltons guarding Winterfell getting flayed by the ancient and recent Starks themsleves
@@nyxebit8200 that would be awesome
It's far more SCP to me that the oldest of oldest Stark statues deep in the collapsed sections aren't Human.
If I keep watching these, I am going to start wanting to reread the books
Bettyp08 if you care enough to watch this video you’ll enjoy another read through
I’m kicking myself for giving away my audiobooks
Do it!
Dew it!!
I’d given away my print books years ago. I just recently purchased most of the Westerosi ebooks. 🤦♀️
Wonderful, Robert. Thanks for this! And, Ser Buckley (Joe). You guys ROCK! 🤘🏻 “Old Nan story time” is now @in deep geek carrying on that tradition. 😂❤️
Also don’t forget being a nights watchman use to be an honor and people willing went there or sent sons . Now almost all people there are criminals. It’s pretty easy to see how they lost their way
Thank you for saying almost all cause the north and the vale still send their sons there not as a punishment.
Laver constantine that is why I said almost due to that and how Sam tarley got there but otherwise it was criminals
Maester Lewin tells "Prince Theon" there are tunnels in Winterfell that lead to the Wall
I love the idea of the others using the caves and tunnels that are scattered about. GRRM called the athers "Shea"? I think which means something like people of the mounds. They came from underground. It would also explained how the others move about without anyone noticing
I always kind of felt that the Wierwood tree in winter fell was planted there. Bran in one of his visions see the tree and mentions it being smaller. Would the builder have built winterfell around a random wierwood sapling?
Great videos guys, loved the new format and looking forward to the series.
Robert, it's so nice to see your face after spending so much time listening to you!
This was fantastic! Thank you both! Awesome, awesome 🐺
I love Sansa so much and so many video essayists clearly loathe her and it’s so refreshing and wonderful to see two smart gentlemen talking about her in a way that makes sense and is interesting and different than other theories I’ve heard.
Thoroughly enjoyed this video! Looking forward to more of the series! Excellent job!
If the crypts are a cave system, then it's possible they are surrounded and made of solid rock. It could be too hard and thick for roots to penetrate.
I think the dragon in Winterfell is John and possibly the grave of an ancient ancestor of the dragon lords from the Empire of the Dawn. Azor Ahai perhaps?
I normally don’t watch podcast style TH-cam videos, just because the format isn’t it for me (in general, not specific to you). Two minutes into this video I realize this is a completely different beast, and I need to devote more time so I can watch it fully. If it continues to be what I think it is, I will watch everyone of these you make!
Could the shade of the evening trees be Weirwoods that have been cut off from the network and have therefore been corrupted in some way?
Zombie Trees
Shout out to Shadiversity making a 3d model of winterfell and it's amazing,you should all go and watch his video of winterfell.
At this point in the books supposedly ‘only’ 2 left why would there suddenly be this previously unknown subway system underneath Winterfell connecting them to the Wall, Dragonstone or more? Secret Hidden Dragons?? It’s the introduction of new information like this that’s causing GRRM such a delay in finishing his tale. Take what’s been presented 1-5 and start wrapping up the story.
Winterfell is bigger on the inside, than outside.
Winterfell is a tardis.
Peglegpeete and Bran possibly a Time Lord?
Armadillo
Peglegpeete or like the house of undying
Now I'm waiting for more time travel
AMAZING IDEA! I am beyond excited for this
Winterfell and Storms End are both warded by Gargoyles. Only mentions of them other then dragonstone. Gargoyles were made to protect people from evil in RL.
To me it seems heavily inspired by the Watchers at Cirith Ungol in LOTR. Monstrous statues inhabited by spirits - preventing enemies from passing through sheer force of will.
Tom Bombadil I assume it works the same way, like an invisible force field. Only instead of “enemies” it works on spirits/shadows.
Lovely, I always enjoy your trips to Westeros. You're voice is lovely as well.
I always thought it odd that one man ( bran the builder) built such super structures ( the wall, storms end, winterfell) for the times in one lifetime. I mean just one would take a lifetime.
Dang I missed this episode but I will catch the next one excellent concept, hope we go through old Nan whom I believe had more T to spread then she has or Re-examining what she said through her words of wisdom and her stories
excellent discussion, robert & ser buckley!
I like the arc of Winterfell as you’ve described. Don’t forget it’s been profaned by the Boltons, and Ramsey having married a false Stark may be the lowest point in its long history. The North remembers. The current coalition ensconced in Winterfell will definitely turn on the Boltons the first chance they get.
I dint put it together that Bran was watching himself being sacrificed. I thought he could tasted the blood simply because it soaked into the ground and the weirwood could taste it. Love your stuff!
Thank you so much for this! When I got the notif I was really hoping it would be with Joe too. This was an excellent surprise that absolutely brightened my day! Yay! 💖
This made me think that the books may well end with the re-emergence of Edric Storm to continue the fight for the Iron throne. Long nights come and go but the game of thrones is eternal.
Also Dragonstone is linked to Winterfell through geo thermal properties. But is this not why when fleeing the doom that Aenar chose Dragonstone, as it shared geothermal properties with Valyria ? So maybe the question could be what links all three. It simply be Starks.
Tunnels from the Wall to Winterfell would give Jon a convenient route back when he emerges from Ghost. This also negates Shireen having to be sacrificed at the wall as with my tin foil firmly pressed on . I think Melisandre has not seen the true prophecy yet again and that the dragon she will awaken is the wroth of Dany, with the destruction of innocent Shireen through sacrifice. I could see the dragons being loosed on Mel, Stannis and the followers of the lord of light as a satisfying end.
Lastly when Rickon shows up he will be completely wild, if you consider what he has experienced as a young child ,to then living with a spearwife likely amongst the cannibals (if the stories are to be believed) on Skagos. He should be as far from a lord of Winterfell as the Weeper.
Wouldn't the logical thing be that the collapsed section is related to the tunnel theory?
The urge to reread is very high....
Robert- I didn’t know that Sansa knew that Littlefinger betrayed her father. He doesn’t seem that careless
Late to this discussion, some excellent insights into the mysteries of Winterfell 👍🏻👍🏻
I'm sorry I missed the livestream! Thank you for the video
Another mystery at Winterfell solved. LF 100% sent the cats paw.
LF life/plots summed up.
Childhood with Tully’s, falls for Kat, Lysa falls for LF (he takes her virginity while drunk, thinks it’s Kat).
Says he loves Kat, fights Brandon, gets a visit.... from the 3 eyed crow. Gets sent away, Lysa is forced to take Tansy.
Fast forward, Lysa gets him to the vale where he shines. He knocks up Lysa, pretends sweet robin is the rightful heir. (Explains why he’s small, sickly dreamer)
Fast forward again... after building up a huge amount of debt to Bravos, LF convinces Lysa to poison Jon and write Kat a letter blaming the Lannister’s. He sends the Catspaw up with The dagger. Possibly mind controls the simpleton, if not he’s a “Florian the fool”.
He is the first person to intercept Kat when she arrives in Kings Landing before they can do any snooping, and we don’t blink an eye because he says Varys told him. He then helps Ned find the “truth” Jon A died for.... gives good council to Ned while setting him up to fail, making sure he comes out on top no matter what happens. He betrays Ned, convinces Jeoff to kill Ned, and has his men rdy to act (slint/Ilyn)
Then he sees immense growth in power, sets up The red wedding, steals Sansa flees to the vale. He’s set himself up to bring Westeros to it’s knees and leave himself standing. Chaos is a ladder
Hello from BC Canada!!
This is great I love your in depth thrones videos they’re the best on TH-cam
So what exactly counts/counted as a "Stark" in WInterfell? We know they tended to intermarry with their Norther vassals rather than with major houses in the south, so isn't it likely since the Boltons were one of their primary bannermen, that they'd have Stark blood from several different generations in the lineage? Would Jon count so long as his last name is Snow or is he disqualified because his father turns out to be a Targaryean? If Sansa becomes queen/lady of Winterfell, would she count if she marries? Would her children if they take her husband's name? Will she be that last of the line (e.g. the Elizabeth I of the story)?
Is "Stark" simply being used as a synonym for "Lord of Winterfell" since they've been one and the same for so long? Does it have to be a direct descendant of Bran the Bulider? How could you even guarantee that over thousands of years?
Great question.
I think Stark is a way of being more than simply the blood line. There's the principles of the Starks that even if the Bolton's have the blood they don't follow the principles. Jon is very Stark like even if his father isn't
So much of the story points out that this patriarchal society is obsessed with "blood", but for most of them that means whether or not one has nobility or born within marriage, not "blood" in "analog for genetics sense except for the Starks (the wolf blood) or the Targaryen's (the dragon blood, blood and fire) . The point is that the story as a whole seems to be full of people who get their physical and personality trait from their MOTHERS, due to that "blood". Sansa can't marry out of her Stark blood/"Wolf" blood, which they say she has less of than Arya, for example, but both of course through their FATHER , Jon cannot be legitimized into his Stark blood, HE HAS IT ANYHOW via his mother Lyana, who was grey eyed and adventurous like Arya.
*And of course it seems that almost nobody in the first book has a clue to the obvious fact that King Robert's actual children look like HIM, not their various Moms, because the "blood is strong".*
The whole series in fact seems to be full of people who seem to forget that children often resemble their mothers- except of course when someone like Queen Cersei is insisting, for her very own reasons, that this is the case!
In Deep!
Sansa might very well control Winterfell and the Eyrie, if she marries Harry the heir, and Sweet Robin dies- especially if she has a child or two with Harry and then HE dies.
I have wondered about two related points. 1) Whether the underground tunnels at Winterfell, and in other parts of Westeros, were originally home to the Children of the Forest. Perhaps at one point they spanned the whole continent, linking up the roots of the Weirwoods. The Children of the Forest may have retreated into the tunnels during their conflict with the First Men? 2) On Winterfell specifically... Is it possible that this is the site where the Last Hero found the Children of the Forest? I'm imagining them living in tunnels beneath the Weirwood, which would then have been located inside a much larger forest. The remnants of that forest would be the Godswood and the Wolfswood, and the tunnels are now the Crypt? If John is the Last Hero/ Azor Ahai reborn, then it might explain why he dreams about the Crypts.
19:15 - 20:25 This is exactly it.
🍪
The most important thing to remember about Winterfell is that it was the "capital" of the Starks at first but then the "Capital" of the North, many of the additional buildings like the Library we likely added to facilitate Winterfell's role as a capital for the Northmen, culturally
How the hell did I miss this? I go through you channel a few times a week and I feel like this one just popped up.
Very confused that I had missed an hour long live stream even though I had only been away from the 'Tube for 40 mins. Then I realised this was not a livestream.
I kind of just had a little epiphany listening to this when you said" there must always be a stark in winterfell" and then you mentioned the connection between the wall and winterfell and the night fort and winterfell and tunnels. And what is the way to cross the wall by saying the oath of The night's watch. So you have to be a brother to pass so maybe " there must always be a stark and winterfell" to be able to access the tunnels between the wall and winterfell. Like I said there's no proof but it would be really cool and that could be a little subtle connection
So if you take: the horn of winter wakes the dead Starks and Jon dreamed he HAS to go to the crypt and R+L=J. Would that mean Jon could meet his mother Lyanna in the crypt? (As he remains and her statue is there as well).
Stone warriors could easily travel hundreds miles through underground tunnels.
GRRM must think his readers are stupid if he suddenly creates an underground cave network for Westeros for quicker travel.
@@210SAi why? Uncovering something that har been unknown is something he does alot of. Underground tunnels all over westeros might be cheap, but might be nessesery.. And would be fucking awesome!
There are even cave systems on Battle Isle underneath the hightower!
Great to hear more from you as my star - not livestream which I can't stand
The one thing that surprises me, or maybe just make me think. Is that crime is rampant, and not to mention there's gotta be some men, who would love to serve in the night's guard. How are their numbers so few? I'd have guessed there'd be regular caravans of criminals from all over westeros?
I have to keep reminding myself that Winterfell is not a real place and we can't just create a GoFundMe for an archaeological expedition to uncover its secrets. Sigh...I've been in isolation too long.
How ya doin buddy?
Still hangin in there? It’s been another tough year …
I would love to see Lady Stoneheart walk back through the main gate of Winterfell. Maybe with a pack of wolves behind her.
I think the pack of wolves will link up with Arya, who acting through Nymeria will give the GIFT to the half- dead thing her mother has become.
Winter was coming
But winterfell
I will see myself out
@@noahkempen Get your coat! It's the north!
one of my favourite videos
Wasn't Dragon Stone made much later after the Targaryens arrived in Westeros? I feel like that diminishes the likelihood that it is connected to Winterfell in some way.
Jessie C I think it was created 100 years before the Doom. But don’t quote me on that lol. I remember reading the Targs left Valyria after one of their ancestors had a vision of the Doom. Once Valyria was gone, Aegon I began the conquest.
Ok so I tried to look it up and according to one wiki I found:
Winterfell was built by Brandon the Builder sometime shortly after the Long Night, which was 8 thousand years before the current story.
Dragonstone, on the other hand, was made by Valyrians with fire magic 2 centuries before the Doom of Valyria, which itself was about 1 century before Aegon's conquest, which itself was about 3 centuries before the current story (so it was built roughly 6 centuries ago).
There is a huge gap between 8 thousand years ago and 600 years ago, plus the castles were built by two very different groups of people. While the castles' similarities might have a symbolic meaning in the story, I think it's unlikely that it's proof they were deliberately built to be mirrors of each other or have a magical/practical connection to each other within the world of the story.
Can we get a secrets of the red keep?
Dude your voice is soothing as fuuuck
I believe there is tunnels from Winterfell to the wall
Oh yes, the best way to start the night is a ASoIaF video
So winterfell is the least impressive castle compared to others in Westeros but it is also the most important.
Frank Ritman How is it the least impressive?
Sansas story arc.... starts as the Maiden ends as an inversion of the maiden.
Ned=Father, ends wrongfully accuses with no justice
Kat=mother, ends “childless” watching her first born die
Rob=Warrior never lost a battle, died at wedding.
Aria=stranger, will die but live again as Nymeria
Bran=the cron, he being manipulated
Rickon=the Smith, he ant rebuilding shit.
Think Sana’a will be a late bloomer, and warg a “little bird”.... likely a mocking bird... to bring down LF. And replace him as the most ruthless player of the game.
Did I miss a live stream? Or is this just one on one?
I was thinking the same thing, but I think its just a one on one..Which is okay, I'll watch anything Robert puts up.
Organically grown castle.
kulnitsky Chi-a-pet Winterfell
I haven’t fully watched this yet, I was trying to find a video that was the third in a series and it’s summarized the first two and being the third built on that and expanded a bit more dealing with why there must always be a stark in Winterfell and what was beneath the cripts. I’m guessing this video covers it, but there was a short version and if that video still exists or it’s been removed, would love an explanation, if it does exist and if it doesn’t, what happened please? I swear I’ve watched it and I’ve spent quite a while. Trying to find it to send to my brother to watch. If this video covers everything I’ve mentioned then that’s fine but I just know I watched those other shorter videos and for the life of me I can’t find them. Did I enter a parallel universe, where those videos existed for a day lol :-) I’ve gone back through my watch history and everything Tried typing in one of the names of the videos or I was pretty close to what I thought one of the names were. Anyway, any information is much appreciated please, and thank you.
25:07 where's that picture from? It's not in the show, so was that like some promotional pictures taken, or just like that Sean Bean wanted a picture taken of him personally or something?
Didn't the Templers use tunnels for escape and treasure or just hiding.
Wouldn't bran the builder have built the first keep? Thought the name was a giveaway really?
IDG!!!
You look exactly like I thought you did.
Who are the six losers who clicked the dislike button???
Probably people who only watched the show and think the story is over
Last scene tin foil hat theory. He who delivers the sentence should swing the sword. Finish where we started, a stark executing a convict. The stark being Lady Sansa and the convict being Little finger. He looks up at the face so much like the woman he obsessed over, as she brings down Widow's wail.
That would truly be the Ouroboros of full circle.
♥️♥️♥️♥️
The most dangerous creatures on earth r the fools who believe in their lies :)
I would burn all of my GOT books everything if Sansa becomes queen of the north, The worst ending EVER
Why?
At this point I’d take any Stark or Jon coming back to Winterfell.
God I hated show Sansa by the end... but book Sansa? I'd be okay with her as Queen. I want an independent North, and with Bran as King elsewhere, Rickon likely dead, Jon exiled, and Arya... well... she never wanted to be a lady, let alone a queen - and she is younger. Sansa seems the best if not only option. (One that most readers I feel can root for)
Tom Bombadil what makes you think Rickon is likely dead?
... disagree. I hope the greatest things for her