The Aesthetic | ContraPoints
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2018
- What matters more-the way things are or the way things look?
Support this channel: / contrapoints
✿Donate: paypal.me/contrapoints
✿Subscribe: / contrapoints
✿Live Stream Channel: / contrapointslive
✿Facebook: / contrapoints
✿Instagram: / contrapoints
✿Website: www.contrapoints.com/
Music by Zoë Blade: www.zoeblade.com/
Opening voice over by Dan Olson: / @foldingideas
[No sponsorship or affiliation, just to give credit where it's due]
Nails by GlamazonNails www.etsy.com/shop/GlamazonNails
Wigs by Wigs and Grace wigsandgrac...
Check out my other videos:
Incels: • Incels | ContraPoints
The West: • The West | ContraPoints
Tiffany Tumbles: • Tiffany Tumbles | Cont...
Jordan Peterson: • Jordan Peterson | Cont...
Capitalism (Part 2): • What's Wrong with Capi...
Capitalism (Part 1): • What's Wrong with Capi...
America-Still Racist: • America: Still Racist ...
Autogynephilia: • Autogynephilia | Contr...
Violence: • Violence | ContraPoints
Degeneracy: • Degeneracy | ContraPoints
The Left: • The Left | ContraPoints
Decrypting the Alt-Right: • Decrypting the Alt-Rig...
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.76[2/2] เดินมาสิบกว่าป่า วันนี้รู้แล้วว่าโจโฉกลัวอะไร!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/R7Yor-t2Au0/mqdefault.jpg)
Compromise: My combat boots have four inch heels.
So does my kid's. It's a great look.
In what situation are those boots fit for combat?
I read that wrong Lucky. I read heels as wheels. Now I want rollerblades. Not sure i can get away with that at my age.
@@_blank-_ KURSK
@@_blank-_
You know, your trolling attempt are pretty weak at this point. Again, go back to 4chan where things like you belong. You're missing out on all the CP threads.
God, sometimes Natalie just hits right on the spot. "The 21st century is an aesthetic century. In history there are ages of reason and there are ages of spectacle, and it's important to know which you're in. Our America, our internet is not Ancient Athens. It's Rome. And your problem is you think you're in the forum when you're really in the circus".
Danilo Luís Faria I literally just quoted that exact line for an essay in my dramatic lit class. It’s just such a brilliant insight
Danilo Luís Faria are you Brazilian or Portuguese?
I often wonder how historians will conceptualize the life and times we're living, but I can never come close to imagining it. I'm in this decade, in this century, and don't have the advantage of retrospect. But Natalie hit the nail on the fucking head here. THIS is how historians will talk about it: a century of spectacle. Performative being, as performative as it's ever been.
Should we adapt or should be fight against this society of spectacle? I think Justine is more on the adapting end.
Well, yeah. That has been the consensus for a good while now. History goes through periods of classicism and romanticism, and we are in the middle of a romantic era. At some point people will criticize the romanticism and their ideas will spread and that will be the start of a classical era
I feel like all the Twitter discourse that slams Natalie forgets that these are characters talking to each other from opposite sides of an argument. This isn't Natalie talking to the camera. She's merely exploring these arguments to gain a broader understanding of them.
Twitter is too brain dead to understand any of this
Androva J. Now I don’t think that’s the case
pizzannn that is the most reasonable response to an unreasonable accusation I have ever seen
@Androva J. Why is being a furry so bad?
molten diamonds honestly idk. Furries are usually pretty nice in my experience.
I hate when people try to decide "who won" in these kinds of videos. I've never gotten the sense that it's meant to express a winner. it's just dissecting the issue
People see it as who won by seeing which arguments are better, so the winner is some what subjective. It wasn't intended that way, but you cant stop people from adding themselves into what they see
I feel like that too, in this debate I thought about arguments from both sides "Wow, that's convincing!" and that's so confusing! But at the same time so interesting and complex
Whenever I try to explain how trans women are women and trans men are men to people, I just end up arguing over whether they are who they are because of how they are seen or they are who they are because of how they identify. So, as someone who went into this video unbiased, I can confirm that I remain unconvinced.
@@citizeninsane8518 unconvinced of what? you're not getting it, like M H said, there isn't a "winner" here, it's a dissection of an issue.
i think we can agree that Tabby Chan is the best girl of this anime, change my mind
"reason is a very powerful aesthetic if you're a man."
"what if you're a woman?"
"Oh, don't be a woman, that's not a good idea."
Welcome to my Ted Talk.
Thats right, the most of the time if you look carefully it sucks
and the subtle detail of how right after she said that, catgirl burnt her tongue on the tea bc it was too hot 💁♀️☕
one of the most accurate to me things about women hood in the video.
Sorry this is an old comment but I love ur bird
"Teenage gay boys on instagram. The only people with coherent vision of contemporary womanhood." - I literally bursted out laughing.
fuck they got me
I am a teenage gay boy on Instagram and I approve this message.
because it's true
i love natalie but that joke did offend me a bit ngl
@Talûn-karkû The Warchief relax, this is a channel about politics and social commentary after all. offense isn't a death sentence; it's part of the conversation.
As a CIS woman, can confirm I have no idea what I am doing.
What is your profile pic
@@longassrice8756 It's from this anime called Naruto. Approximately 15 years ago I made a music video using clips from it and uploaded it to TH-cam, and TH-cam kinda just took a random screen capture from the video and made it my picture. I just never bothered to change it.
I hear ya.
DeadlyTiger the days of being a preteen weeb and making amv’s as a means of battling existential angst and depression. Takes me back
Ditto
My boyfriend and I are starting a new tradition, Netflix and Chill except it's Contrapoints and Cuddles.
😘
get you a man's like that.
I showed my bf a contrapoints video last night and watched him fall in love
Blake Moroney Guys my husband is a biggot lol, he’s a Republican Gay dude, he didn’t liked her
@@andreblackaller3560 Ouch.
"You think you're in the Fourm when you're actually in the Circus".
My jaw dropped. You managed to actually managed to put the whole current society into an actual context!
we have an Orange skinned, small hand, cotton candy taupe wearing, president
welcome to the carnival
I had to stop and think if it was faux-deep or literally one of the best summations of current times I've ever heard, and I'm leaning towards Natalie being one of the most important voices on this platform.
Part of the problem is also that so many people have gotten so use to being in the Circus that they don't recognize when they are in the Forum.
jB: yes, but also vise versa. People used to platforms for rational discourse have trouble when they find that they are actually the clown on the carny dunking tank.
"Internet bloodsports" as Jim put it
"You're so bougie" "I'm not the one quoting German philosophers from memory"
The eternal struggle of the communist lol
The struggle is that people equate education with the bourgeoisie. Luckily that's not the case everywhere anymore.(they correlate somewhat to much though)
@@malteborgmanm2626 Flaunting how many books from 19th century white upper middle class men you've read is pretty bourgie.
Kolzi Can confirm.
@@ReddoFreddo that wasn't flaunting, it was relevant to the argument and added to the discussion; surely one can use privilege constructively without "flaunting", do male feminists "flaunt" their privilege when they use it to give marginalised women a platform?
As an anarcho-socialist who has Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias" memorized by heart, I say oof.
"i didn't say it was insensitive, i said it was unfair."
that line is really the crux of why justine is wrong, even if tabby isn't always 100% right. jesus this video still hits different on the sixth viewing
@Malum I think this gets at something important too. Some people are able to see where things are unfair, and other people don't, and I think that is where the tension is. Once again empathy would fix this.
isxiah rxxxxx As much as I wanna believe that Tabby is the winner, I don’t think I can say that. She certainly has my sympathy, and her arguments function better for the long-term benefit of queer people, but that “I’ve seen minds change and hearts soften” line hits different after the Canceling video.
As grueling and humiliating as it is to admit, it sometimes does feel like you have to capitulate to something unfair to be taken seriously. I hate wrestling- but I do it occasionally because I feel like I have to work twice as hard to be taken half as seriously as a man, considering that I’m gay.
I find myself unable to invalidate Justine’s work. There are those that can deal with capitulating and those that cannot. Both are important, on some level.
I feel like it's the constant conflict of how the world SHOULD be versus how it is. Philosophically, Tabby is morally correct, but what's that got to do with the price of onions? We don't live in a thought experiment, we live in the awful, awful world.
@@NobodyXChallengerYT i dont believe either of them won, and i dont think it really matters who has the better arguments when the world we live in is still so complicated and capable of cruelty. i was just tired of people saying that because justine seems like she's being more realistic that justine is right. both of them understand the unfairness of it all, but justine constantly moves to minimize what the experience of unfairness really is, which in some ways we all do when we just want to get by. i think it's reasonable to not constantly dwell on the *unfairness* of it all, but it's also reasonable to push back when people take someone recognizing unfairness to be naive or overly sensitive about how the world works, which is what justine does to tabby.
in the end i think it's more like the elephant poem than like fully taking a side. each is partially in the right, and all are in the wrong. abigail can pish off though
@@isxiahrxxxxx6725 really good points. I do think that Justine should get off Tabby's case, she can wear what she wants. BUT, the ending to me felt like Justine's point. Did I get it wrong or was the Tracy character talking in the end about a horrible sexual experience? So, in a way, it's true that you are able to wear what you want, but things like that can happen if you do, because this is the horrible world. And after the credits, the place where Tiffany lost herself... Tiffany was Justine to a worse extreme and she had even a bigger dysphoria for it. Right? So I agree that both are right to an extent. And if that's he case, why was Natalie regretting this video? She did say sorry for it but none were her complete thoughts!
It's so weird that Justine is friends with both Tabby and Tiffany. I really wish Contrapoints would be a Netflix-show where we could follow all these characters more closely.
Its not so weird. You can (sometimes) be friends with people with different beliefs, as long as you respect them and they respect you.
@@stuartgrooves1115 it's true. I have plenty of friends who are more politically moderate than I am.
Keeping up with the ContraPoints
Fuck yeah
And they've all been on The Freedom Report, with Jackie Jackson.
every contrapoints video proves that contrapoints is the only one thoughtful enough to debate with contrapoints
That or it proves that the only way to have a debate in 2018 that doesn't end in twitter callouts is to argue with yourself.
@@tangledfish As long as the person doing it is honest enough to not misrepresent their "opponents" beliefs. It's a hard thing to do. When you think someone is wrong, you usually have a hard time expressing to others why that someone thinks that way and how it could maybe potentially be true.
@@idontlikeyouyo
Aren't you very original and edgy.
@@idontlikeyouyo where does mental illness fits in this? legit question, i'd like to listen
@@idontlikeyouyo In other words, you speak nonsense
When you get your PhD they give you a new wig.
I hate your new character.
Wig of debt?
This is the first time I genuinely disagree with natalie.
I love your videos.
It's the only thing that keeps me alive at this point.
3:29 I see both as black and blue but the left one is brighter. Anybody else?
justine speaks
me: oh shit good point
tabby responds
me: oh shit good point
I'm a cis white woman and although it's not what Natalie is arguing here, I have a similar version of this internal debate all the time. Celebrating yourself and pushing for change vs. playing the game and practicing perfect femininity so I can play the role of the saboteur and have my voice heard once I've made myself seem credible by playing the game. I think everyone tries to find the balance between the two, in their own version.
Except cis men.
@@PappyMandarine No, they have to conform to what society expects of men, too.
@@zieteniere7500 Sure, to some extent. But the thing is, society preemptively expects of men conformity AND anticonformity, if you see where I'm getting at. The idea is that an anticonformist cis woman (for example, among others) might be very harshly judged & punished... but an anticonformist man? Not so much; it's as if society knows and accepts that some men are bound to refuse to play the game.
Nameless ! What are you talking about anti-conformist men are going to be very harshly judge just as much. You ever hear of Nicola Sacco, Bartolomeo Vanzetti, GG Allen, or all homosexual Cis men.
*saboteuse
i honestly dont get why people are pissed at her for this. she never once said in the video that she truly believes all trans people have to "look the part", shes portraying this internal dialogue that she and many other trans people go through of them not being "trans enough" or "not passable enough"
Um that was obvious. Hell its even in the title of the channel Contrapoints.
Some people were actually too slow to get that shit?
It’s a dialectic debate played out by characters. Natalie is not Justine. I mean, people understand that she doesn’t believe what she says as Abigail Cockbane- why would they suddenly think Justine is speaking what Natalie truly believes, or anymore that Tabby is speaking what Natalie believes.
They’re all characters. Used to explore different views. That’s the point.
@@katherinemorelle7115 The CONTRA point! :D
@@katherinemorelle7115 To be honest people probably get hung up on it 'cause the character aesthetic and personality isn't exaggerated enough versus Natalie, causing confusion. But, eh, shit's hard to do right.
Sveinung Tørresdal that's actually a good way of putting it. dialectics & her essays already tends to favor performative interpretations. Also Justine basically advocates for toxic femininity which to be fair cis girls tend to be taught during puberty. So toxic gender roles are dysphoric & distressing no matter who you are. Would cis girls & cis boys basically reject being taught toxic femininity? The fact that it's toxic implies that you're more likely to be poisoned than you are to change it from within. So this is why "no one wins".
"Don't be a woman; that's not a good idea!"
*burns self on tea that's too hot*
feeling really attacked rn
Ben Shapiro's hypocrisy annoys me. "Facts don't care about your feelings, but you should live your lives according to the Torah, because my religion says so".
Joe C silence nazi
Especially since conservatives lie and twist facts on the daily.
"Facts don't care about your feelings, but I do" -TransShapiro
Pretty big hole in his philosophy.
Ben Shapiro is just a gay man way too far deep in the closet so he covers it up with the stupid shit he says and no one can convince me otherwise.
I think Natalie was maybe a little too subtle here in conveying how IMPOSSIBLE Justine's advice is to actually follow, but she's very clear about it. At 9:20 she says "you need to be so good at makeup that every cis women you know comes to you for advice" and 10 sec. later says "your hands are not tools, they're ornaments" This is impossible. I think Justine represents a part of the ideal that Natalie is pursuing in her transition, all the while Natalie is aware of the impossibility of anyone actually achieving this ideal. Nothing that Tabby says is ridiculous or self-contradictory or self-defeating. Most of what Justine says is self-defeating until she is finally corrected by Tabby. The subtitle of the Marquis De Sade novel Justine is "Virtue Is Its Own Reward." De Sade's Justine constantly aspires to be virtuous and constantly suffers for it and is never rewarded for it. This was all apparently too subtle for the critics who think Justine "won" the argument.
Hi
Unfortunately, trying to live up to an impossible and contradictory set of standards is EXACTLY what it means to be a woman.
@@raem7846 and at the same time exactly what it shouldn't mean to be a woman.
Yeah, I used to think Justine won. Now I'm realizing that there's more to it.
@@raem7846 Well, that's how the patriarchy establishes the parameters of womanhood. Women can work to define themselves, and should.
Cut to 20 yrs from now, when philosophy students are studying Contrapoints alongside their Socratic dialogues
Haha god I hope so, I kept thinking about the Decay of Lying watching this!
I came to this video as an assignment for a debate class at the University of Pittsburgh. Last week was Aristotle.
this is the future I work for
I honestly hope that happens
Contrapoints, What is Gender?
"You think you are in the forum, when you're really in the circus"
Holy. Shit.
That washed over me like a wave of bricks.
I hate how true this is. I loathe it. Despise it. It's a repugnant state of affairs.
th-cam.com/video/C0CJ2thvJJU/w-d-xo.html
Bars
That hit me to! ... Not that the Forum is a much more desirable place to talk about change, though. Let's ask the Gracchi brothers what they think about it.
This episode hurt my head so much to think about, but it's real. It's a common joke among men to revoke someone's 'man card', like literally revoking someone's gender identity based on perceived identity that goes against the group.
And its always self-imposed standards that result in the revocation of the man card. “Oh you shoot poorly” may not mean a thing to a lot of people, but to my family it means a great deal.
I honestly find Tabby incredibly heartwarming in this video. I didn't the first several times I watched it -- it just hit like a debate between two outlooks (and that's, as we know, praxis). But now, in 2020, there is something simultaneously sweet and empowering about seeing a person who knows perfectly well that others are going to find her identity and presentation ridiculous, and does not give them one single inch on account of that knowledge. Tabby's not always right, but I stan regardless.
That’s kinda the beauty of Tabby as a character. Her designs for combating capitalism and patriarchy may not be all that sophisticated, but by god, if half the modern American left was that sincere and motivated, we could really get a lot done. She’s a very get-shit-done model of activism.
I really like tabby and I feel like her alot as a trans woman. I like boots and jackets and cats and masculine aesthetics but god damn Im still a women through and through. She inspires me even as a character because Im like her which feels cool :),
The most impressive thing about this piece is just how much lighting she has in her apartment.
What you don't see is the liquid cooling station fighting to make sure none of the bulbs burn out during a shoot.
I feel like she has watched Nicholas Winding Refn films like Neon Demon or Drive
SCOTCHBOX nope. The most amazing thing is her brain.
That's not lighting, that's her aura.
I like to think that its always like that, even when she isnt making a video
"I'm actually a lady who used to be a man, dressed as a man who is dressed as a lady"
That pretty much set the tone for the video perfectly.
"So trans women just starting their transition are *pretending* to be women?"
"I mean, isn't that kind of what it felt like?"
ooh
"So according to you, a trans woman is just a full time drag queen."
"That's what any woman is."
*OOH*
Killer lines in this one
Thats a simple explanation of performative gender theory. I don’t necessarily subscribe to it because I think gender has more pieces but yeah it is summed up really well with an aesthetically pleasing style
Yeah, that bit reminded me of an interview Dolly Parton recently did with Rupaul wherein Dolly said, "Yeah, you dress up like a woman and perform as such when you feel like it, but then you also get to take all that drag off and go around in public without it when you feel like it, whereas I have to be 'in drag' ALL THE TIME whenever I'm in public."
@@JLittleBass True. I mean, I’m sure Dolly enjoys dressing up, but at this point, it’s not really a choice, is it? She has an image, so even though she’s in her seventies and may feel a little exhausted with the image (possibly, I won’t speak for her) she has to maintain the surgeries and the hair and the gorgeous outfits. She’s a brilliant songwriter, but that’s not the reason Dolly has so many gay fans and why so many drag queens dress up as her, and you can’t deny it.
@@beatrixlozach4840 I hope at least some queens love Dolly for her music and her stage presence, she's an amazing artist 🥺
@@katiem5245
I personally apply the acorn and oak tree analogy to combining the sense that gender is identity and that gender is performance, especially in the context of a trans person's gender identity.
On the one hand, you are recognized as being a certain gender depending on how you behave and express yourself and whichever gender more closely goes along with that in its associated characteristics. A trans person's gender as they are going through the motions of social transitioning to more effectively pass as the cisgender version of their gender is an oak tree. However, a person only performs a certain way because of how they identify in the first place. A trans person's gender when they are merely identifying themselves as their identified gender is an acorn. So while simply identifying as a certain gender, but without doing or expressing anything to reflect that identification isn't enough to be perceived as a certain gender, a person wouldn't just simply identify a certain way and leave it at that. They would also behave and express themselves a certain way to reflect the way they identify. An acorn by itself is not an oak tree; it needs to have soil, water, and sunlight to grow into an oak tree. However, you would never get an oak tree with all the soil, water, and sunlight in the world if you didn't already have an acorn to work with in the first place.
Thus to me, the way someone acts as well as self-expresses and the way someone identifies are two sides of the same gender coin. You identify a certain way, then act and express yourself to reflect that, but you only ever act and express yourself a certain way to begin with because of how you identify in the first place. Gender is not strictly identification, and it is not strictly performative. Gender is the amalgam of self-identification and performance (both personal and social).
“Sometimes being yourself isn’t enough. Sometimes you have to become yourself.”
I really, REALLY like that.
Depression +50
Knowledge +50
Appreciation & Gratitude +50
"In history, there are ages of reason and there are ages of spectacle, and it's important to know which you're in. Our America, our Internet, is not ancient Athens. It's Rome, and your problem is you think you're in the forum when really you're in the circus."
This hit me out of nowhere and cut me real deep. I feel despair.
It was a dead-on analogy of the times that just shot out of left field. aptly shook
This was the hardest lesson I ever learned, and the tragedy is that learning it only served to make me a more cynical and less idealistic person.
I'm so bummed now. Damn it.
This is sad as I have no awareness of aesthetics of course I didn't develop a true theory of mind until kindergarten when I realized people where more than moving furniture so I probably am an outlier.
Enjoy the decline
Why feel despair, when the French Resistance kept fighting the fascist scum under far more depressing circumstances than these?
"Do not, under any circumstances, imitate cis women. They have no idea what they're doing." aye I mean, that's not wrong
raela sh as a cis woman I agree, I used to go out of my way to copy a toned down version of drag queens. That’s how I found fashion as a teen
Maryam Bangura I think it's true for all cis-women, actually. And it also comes off a bit as 'fake it, till you make it', while you're searching for your own expression.
That’s so true , since i was 14 i was looking for “what’s to be a woman?” “ what I’m feeling? “ And guess what? LGBTQ+ culture help me more about that than anything else, I was so confused and scared, i mean I’m 21 and still scared , it’s not funny but as Maryam said “fake it,, till you make it” , as a child and even now i have problems understanding cis culture , I mean... we as cis women, have a culture? A culture that isn’t based on men opinions?
Татьяна Газарян
That’s so interesting to hear...I’m a 35 year old cis woman and I never really tried to fit any preconceived notions about what it meant to be, look like or act like a woman. I’ve always wore what I felt like wearing, acted how I wanted (within limits of a polite society, of course), used make up or not depending on my mood or preference at the time, and generally expressed myself in a way that felt authentic and pleasant to me.
It’s quite strange to see women say they used to copy trends from various subcultures in order to find themselves and their own type of expression...then again, maybe I had unconsciously absorbed modes of acting I would observe and admire in straight men, or other straight women without really analyzing it...I don’t even know.
Who even are we? A composite of influences we subconsciously take in like a coma patient on an IV? What does it even mean to be authentic, if everyone is vulnerable to acquiring biases, behaviours and preferences from the outside world? Whenever we fight one set of rules, don’t we at the same time unconsciously agree on following another? Is it even possible to be truly and completely non-conformist? I don’t think so...
o/ hi, that's me (i think, not entirely sure if cis)
Abigail Cockbane is the name of my next DnD character
Oh shit, just create my character, it would be so cool!!!
I'll stole your idea for my next rpg session.
Thanks so Much!!!
Is she Chaotic Evil?
@@uniqueusername_ Probably more of a lawful evil, or maybe more of a templar...
Abigail Cockbane is what I call Abigail Shrier.
In 2015 I was borderline alt-right. Don’t ask- it’s a long story. Then I found Shoe0nhead and through her I found you. Now I’m a social democrat and trans ally doing my best to educate myself and be better. Don’t underestimate what you do. You change minds and hearts.
Same kind of. I wasn’t alt right but I called myself a “classical liberal”. I still love shoeonhead but I left that anti-SJW camp a long time ago.
Is there a “found Nat through Shoe” club because same
i just dont like shoe anymore i used to really love her videos but she just never really seems to think.....out of the shoebox.....i'll see myself out
My non sectarian side: Glad to have you on the Left
Me: WHY DID YOU MURDER ROSA LUXEMBOURG!!!!
Crazy to see so many people got to this transition. It's mostly the same period too (2015/16).
My (borderline) alt right phase just had to do with puberty I think.
I started transitioning 6 years ago and I’m completely stealth now. So stealth my coworkers will say transphobic things and talk shit about trans people not knowing that they work with one. I feel sick to my stomach when it happens but I’m too scared to speak up. I don’t know why I’m telling you this. I guess I just feel guilty not being a good ally. Good video.
Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. You are already brave for living your truth. Only you can judge how safe it is for you to speak out.
Wow those asshats can go eat my girl dick
Isn't that the point though? To be a woman, to live normally and to be so comfortable with yourself people are comfortable around you? Idk I had a thought and a point but I lost it. Maybe I'll come back this later. But a joke should just a joke.
I'm a filthy centrist though. A terrible Ally that walks away when assholes say asshole shit and have guilty chuckles at off color jokes if they actually tickle my sense of humor
nothing wrong with keeping yourself safe
you don't have to be a "good ally" you just need to survive and it's extremely hard. We, cis gender people, have to be good ally! WE can go on the street or at work with safety! You, survive! Please! Don't put yourself in danger. WE are safe, WE have to do the work. We have to defend you!
12:24 - The moment I realized I had completely forgotten this was the same person, and that this had to be edited together to look like a dialogue, and how difficult it must have been to not only edit seamlessly, but also perform/act/react seamlessly.
Seriously, it's kind of mind-boggling how well constructed these videos are.
I've been hit by the realization that Tabby isnt necessarily wrong. Shes not delusional, she refuses to accept society as it stands, and the injustices it perpetuates. Falling into those injustices and conforming is an option, and a powerful one, but it's not the only one.
"do not under any circumstances imitate cis women! they have no idea what they're doing."
can confirm, i have no idea what i'm doing
Amen. I don't even know how to use makeup, and I'm too disinterested to bother.
Not born in male body = you have no idea what you're doing?
@@willfin3404 it's what people normally call *a goddamn joke*
Am a man. We also have no idea what we are doing.
We are all so fucked.
we don’t have to know what we’re doing because we’re not trying to look like another group to society. we don’t have to convince people of anything
“I look at all the photos of trans women who are murdered in this country, and they don’t look like you or me” that won tabby’s argument right there. society’s view of what trans women should be needs to be expanded, not diligently abided by, because the voiceless who can’t live up to impossible expectations suffer the most
+
Agreed, but also, people are dum dums who like shiny things. I think we should be Tabbys with combat boots but no smashes, at least when it comes to lgbtq+ issues.
Subtly though Justine's argument isn't 'diligently abide by', that's Tiffany Tumbles. Justine's position is to work realistically within the existing system to gain enough influence to change it, and improve what you can while you can.
Bashing the fash does nothing for those voiceless. It doesn't elevate them or win them inclusion. You can't build trans-inclusive crisis and homeless shelters by beating up terfs. You can however get that by being Laverne Cox and getting your cis followers to donate to a charity fund. By playing the system and changing it.
Punching Terfs or Nazi isn't revolutionary. It doesn't undermine the system or alter the means of production. All it does is make the puncher feel righteous, the unwashed centrists more afraid, and reveals the left to be exactly the Petit Proletariat that they most fear they really are.
EDIT: Wording, errors
But at the same time. Theres something to be said about the trans women who abide and preform the ideal trans woman for the cishet public and actually win sympathy and support for the trans women that don't. Its like MLK's tactic of dressing in sunday clothes to protest. You make yourself look so fucking respectable, so flawlessly what they expect from you, you're difficult to criticize. You're easyer to see as the protagonist of this story, bc pretty=good in the eyes of the masses. Thats not to say we don't also riot. Thats not to say everyone has to assimilate. Just that we play the entire field.
You go ahead and fight that fight, I just want to exist so I will abide...
i can't believe "this is a human rights violation!" and "i like to see naked people" are in the same video, iconic
"You cut that out now, or you'll go home in an ambulance".
This is so wrong. Ambulances take people to hospitals, not home.
😂 😂
He'll be a vegetable sent home to be on hospice via ambulance.
Unacceptable. UNSUBSCRIBED
Well, depending on how you define "home," the hospital could be a patient's home (or at least function like one) if they are hospitalized long enough.
@@johnwalker1058 By your argument home can be defined as the solar system too. Obviuosly he is not hospitalized, right?
“The left will abide a regal queer.”
She's not wrong
"a regal queer" is who I want to be when I'm, like, old and grey-haired.
make this into a t-shirt honestly
Thus was spoken, so shall be done
Person: How can I make a good visual for my video?
ContraPoints: N!E!O!N! L!I!G!H!T!S!
IKEA light strips with the adjustable colours. Best two have two. At opposite sites. In conflicting colours...
GeoNeilUK preferably bi colours
if pronouns really did refer to chromosomal sex then oh man do the french have some explaining to do
i dont get this help
@@androdeiculus9712 so many pronouns
@@silcrow4045 not to mention gendered nouns, adjectives, etc.
And the spanish-speaking as well, unless you can prove to me that the chair I am sitting on right now does, in fact, have XX chromosomes.
Retro CreaTbJ I thought chair was “la silla”, meaning it would have to be proven that it’s a “she” and therefore XX chromosomes?
I love how Tabby and Justine both have good points. Tabbys arguments are, to me, what most trans people want to do. It is unfair what Justine is saying to do, to be incredibly feminine to overcompensate. Tabby is the one being logical and rational but the modern world isn’t rational and doesn’t listen to valid arguments, it values outward appearances. So, if you want to be taken seriously by society (at least if you’re a public figure), it’s an unfortunate reality that you will likely have to in someway adapt to its expectations. It’s unfair but I definitely understand Justines points.
Not just 'the modern world'; try to be outside the norms of non-modern societies would also get you rejected, sanctioned, or punished. Those norms might have been more permissive in some directions but they're always there.
@@williamchamberlain2263 true
The world only values outward appearance if you’re a woman. Men can gain respect even if they’re effeminate or ugly. I’m an ugly effeminate man and I still get other men to respect me.
"Reason is a very powerful aesthetic...if you're a man."
"And what if you're a woman?"
"Oh don't be a woman. That's not a good idea."
Glad I wasn't drinking anything. I would have choked and died.
Oh that's so fucking true! And the opposite is also true, bizarrely. In Britain, you only have to look at people like Boris Johnston, putting on the airs of a loveable oaf. And this guy is apparently our next prime minister! Could you imagine a woman acting like that and being taken at all seriously?
a few days ago I read this comment that went along the lines with "women have no common sense , maybe that's why I'm gay"
Jono793 Theresa May exists...
Sam theresa may isnt exactly a lovable oaf, shes very overly controlled to the point of being nicknamed the maybot
Tabby burnt herself on that scalding hot tea.
Just remember, Justine isn't Natalie.
She's an _aspect_ of Natalie, but Natalie's words are coming out of Tabby as well in this video.
Brian Griffith people seem to be forgetting that and it’s bumming me right the hell out
That's true, but it's also obvious that Natalie's actual thoughts don't differ too much from Justine's
Except Justine's side is weighted incredibly heavily because she does 80% of the talking, is always on the offensive, and is never really challenged. The whole video is this format: Justine makes point. Tabby offers very brief retort. Justine handwaves it away and moves on to her next point.
The video is unquestionably framed in a way that makes it clear we're supposed to either leave it agreeing with Justine or thinking "Both sides have a point." But that's bad. Because Tabby is clearly right here.
Tabby gives one hell of a verbal smackdown near the end of the video, which Justine accepted. I'd say she was challenged and even relented to Tabby's viewpoint.
@@zissoulander you're right, the debate was clearly really balanced. They talked more or less about the same amount of time, they both made their points and their contrapoints (XD) and had good, strong arguments. Why does it look like Justine won (which is, after all, the reason so many people are angry at Natalie)? Because Justine won when it comes to the aesthetica. And that kinda was her whole point.
Ben "I say things fast" Shapiro. Ben "My feelings don't care about your facts" Shapiro. Ben "I will hit puberty soon I promise" Shapiro.
"Some people say I'm a man dressed as a lady. But I'm actually a lady who used to be a man, dressed as a man dressed as a lady. Explain that, Professor Butler."
I wish most conversations on issues could be this deep.
and that they weren't always with ourselves.......
This is the last place I expected to see you haha
Watch the Majority report, at 1.5x if necessary
EmperorTigerstar
I saw a mudcrab by the waters recently. Nasty things with sharp pincers. I do avoid them. However, luckily they're really slow and not too bright.
I really love how good you are at making a diverse cast of characters who are, ultimately, ALL wrong in one way or another, and yet, through the complex interactions of their respective wrongness-es (that's now a countable noun because I said so), you manage to make your point perfectly.
Yeeeessss!
Yes, absolutely... I’m absolutely in love with her and her videos.
There could be a good name for the way she does it. Like contradictory points or something
I wouldn’t call all of them wrong necessarily (even though some of them clearly are) but they all have extreme representation of something so we can see their flaws and maybe take away some of their good points.
@@Nomin130 That's her channel name: ContraPoints.
16:10 "In case you haven't noticed, I'm weird. I'm a weirdo. I don't pass. I don't _want_ to pass. Have you ever seen me without these stupid cat ears? That's weird."
I'm just a struggling catgirl from the wrong side of the political compass, and you're just the t-girl next door.
Blaire lost a follower when I found Natalie Wynn.
Alice Preto me too. I’ve been converted and I’m never going back
Same here. Blaire's arguments just seem so empty and shallow now that I've learned about Natalie's.
Welcome!!! Natalie is amazing. It’s all a learning process, it never stops.
You can not compare the two
Who is Blaire?
You are an absolute treasure, Natalie. ❤️
holy shit, didnt expect to see the annoying orange guy here
Damn, one of my favorite youtubers from 2010 commenting under a video by one of my favorite youtubers in 2018.
Fucking annoying orange guy is a contrapoints fan?? Oh my god
@@xToony It is a bit unexpected but pretty cool.
Dane Boe You know what shouldn’t be treasured? Natalie overexposing some shots in her videos. Also some time she brings the lights too close to her face and it totally ruins the lighting scheme by drowning out her skin tones. To be honest, as far as greatest flaws go, it’s not too bad, but it is annoying.
The lack of real synthesis gave me a lot of sad and empty feelings. I kept waiting for Natalie to barge into the room and put together both Tabby's and Justine's view points into a perspective... but in the end that didn't happen. But I also realized that basically encapsulated the feeling of what it feels like to be a trans woman in the discourse in 2018.
Yep... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
That was one of my favorite parts of the video. No, we can't all agree, but at the end of the day, that shouldn't matter. It's important to be able to love someone you disagree with.
Exactly. There is no real conclusion, no convincing, no comfortable summation. Natalie can't storm in and fix everything because she's living the reality of it. The conversation is more or less one that plays out inside her head on a regular basis. A little here, a little there. And when she plays it out for us, she makes it charming in the end, with the two characters deciding to be friends and support one another. But the conflicting ideals at war inside one's own mind, the insecurities, the doubts, the frustrations, they don't hug and make up. They aren't cute. As well acted and produced as Nat's videos are, it's still really raw on another level, and I appreciate that.
You might take comfort in the fact that the left and the liberals do live successfully in the same political tent. It's uncomfortable and there's fighting, but we are able to get alone well enough to achieve mutual ends.
Watching this spoke to me as a cis woman.
This is similar to a constant dialogue that alot of feminists have with themselves.
I'm VERY busty, and sexualization came with my big boobs, I'm constantly making the choice to work within that sexualized vision of me to get people to listen and make things happen, or to choose to play it down and force people to face me as a person head on instead of boobs first.
"Am I too feminine for feminism?" Is something I hear alot
I remember watching a British series called Fleabag and main character was telling her therapist “sometimes I think I wouldn’t be a feminist if I had bigger tits”.
Kat Fox
“Be pretty, but be wary of being too sexual.” Ugh. I hate that.
It feels so weird watching a contra vid that’s less than 40 minutes now
Watching ContraPoints is reminiscent of reading Aristotle. She doesn't talk at you, she just explains the sides of the issue in a way that is engaging and thought provoking. And you end up either agreeing with or understanding her view because it is usually the most reasonable, and sometimes she doesn't even tell you what she thinks and leaves it to you to figure it out.
Wasn’t that Plato’s thing?
Plato wrote down Socrates' discussions with people in Athenes
This is just how all philosophers are
Yea and Socrates' discussions were way more one sided. Even though Natalie speaks to herself, she explores many different perspectives and I think that's really impressive.
@@mariamatedei
Well, sort of. Good philosophers discuss ideas and put up the best arguments they can for all sides and perspectives involved, then let the reader be the judge of which they thought was best. A bad philosopher will just try to tell you what to think as though they have the one true answer in instances where the problem is not truly solved or a topic is complex, but their solution treats it as simpler than it truly is.
I've seen some TH-camrs describe your content as overproduced meandering that says absolutely nothing of value but those people just don't seem to be listening. You're not dictating *to* us, like 98% of TH-cam, we're just viewing a debate from the outside. Another fantastic, thought provoking video, thank you!
It would be great if contra debated pink wig or sargon of jim wigs
Wandering Oryx
Sargon The Stepfather
Unlike 99% of youtube 'intellictuals', ContraPoint's videos actually makes me think as well as being entertaining. Also love the music too.
@nono meme how did my comment get 500+ likes. but yeah, that's it exactly, I was referring to youtubers who use 2d puppets for their personas, too so it's extra funny.
The people who say that are too scared to actually bother to analyze their fear and realize those fears are irrational. They can't listen. They dont bother to listen, or challenge their opinions.
Sad that they can't see how truly enjoyable and thought provoking these videos are. Their loss.
Okay, so... I kind of used to be a terf? And I've literally read butler in class and written finals and papers on it while internally scoffing and dismissing it but this video really brought it home, because I struggle with the exact same performance of femininity as a cis lesbian.
"Male to anime twitter..."
Bruh, that's harsh.
I didn't understand that part. What does it mean?
@@PappyMandarine i think it's like, FTM(female to male), MTF(male to female)? I just noticed that joke just now. I think it refers to transwomen on twitter who use anime profile.
@@slow_ae2676 Thanks for the clarification! Trolls who fap on anime I guess, in particular trans on some futanari stuff most likely haha.
@@PappyMandarine I think she means litterally Tabby and other transwomen with very specific aesthetic (sexy, but at the same time somewhat childish, with stripped socks and anime ears, gaming communistic lesbians). She talks more about them in her video "cringe", and she doesn't call them trolls or say they do anything wrong. If anything, she says they have such authenticity, it looks naive and even embarassing - to a person that can't accept herself or is afraid "what will cis people think?" I'd say she treats Tabby very affectionately and makes her the voice of hopeless idealism, which is probably why audience, me included, likes Tabby.
@@potmki6601 Yeah, Tabby's got personality! Gotta love that character!
Usually I really don't like the more fictionalised format, but I think it really works best as a friendly conversation. It really highlights the contrast between the unproductive nature of internet """debate""" versus having a good faith argument.
“Tabby i don’t wanna fight with you. We are surviving in this shit world together and you’ll always be my sister”.
That’s the only thing that matters.
i loved that part
That's all that really matters
I really get Tabby's annoyance here in conversation. Justine is trying (and succeeding) to eloquently explain the current world trans people inhabit to justify her method for surviving it. But it's not like Tabby doesn't know it. We all know it. It's even said it's unspoken to some degree. But Tabby, in her style, decided the best way to handle such a world is to smash it. To do otherwise is the path to Blaire. But also to be Tabby is to have to face an entire world that doesn't like you.
I notice people are upset for the things said in the video. I think it's worth seeing "The Left", where in the post comment Natalie said Justine was made to look bad even though it might look like it's her true stances.
But tabby is right though.
@@ManiSoSweet Old ass comment but I don't think I denied that. And I agree with her more as time goes on.
@@kueller917 how are you! Two years in the future💕❤️❤️❤️
@@ManiSoSweet A lot has sure happened in those two years!
@@kueller917 this was such a cute interaction😁
“I thought we were talking about philosophy!”
“No. We’re talking about shoes.”
Idk why but I liked that line
that sure was a deep philosophical piece of dialogue to me!
It reminded me of that old TH-cam video "Shoes". Please tell me yall know what I'm talking about.
I love that ContraPoints doesn't have anyone smart enough on this platform to debate so she just debates herself
I'd like to see her and Peter Coffin in a video together, but their topics are always just centimeters apart from being compatible.
Ria Ray when you’ve never heard of a Socratic dialogue
Roflmao. In truth, contra tends to summarize both sides well enough
IKRRRR
debating oneself is a clever way to win every debate, i agree
As a straight Black man I really relate to this. It's a constant battle in my own head between. Too Black and not Black enough.
Africa is waiting for you. Go be free.
@Black Sun Rising No thanks. My people built this land. So it's mine. Question. How are you a Nazi with a "think you're being cute" username watching long form essays from a trans women? I'm sure the rest of you racist pals didn't authorize that.
Oi, I think this is something that plays in a lot of black people's heads. And as the video alludes, it's can heavily fall on Aesthetics and performance.
I'm West African, I live in Nigeria. I am 100% black but anytime I'm 'removed' from that space (when I travel, or when I'm on the internet like now) there's that hyperawareness that I can't really explain. There are people on the internet arguing with you about your own blackness. When you're physically present there are people trying to chip away at you to find that 'white part' not believing you're not mixed race because you 'don't act black.'
People do think there's a way to perform race, perform gender, etc, and if you 'fail' to perform it properly they'll rob you of that identity.
@@saintcaliendo2610 👏👏👏👏👏
Double consciousness!
I like the reveal that tabby is a furry. Like I thought she was an actual cat but the idea that she’s a furry completely flips my perception of her and it’s great.
Lmfao I love the idea of the ambulance taking Ben Shapiro home instead of to the hospital. 😂😂😂
His wife _is_ a doctor, haven't you heard?
@@fruitygarlic3601 😂 yeah, I know she is. He doesn’t miss a chance to tell us.
At this point, I basically stop what I'm doing and fire up the TH-cam app on my TV when you drop a video.
brentalfloss Same
Yep
And now I want a "What if ContraPoints had Lyrics" video...
Kim Kardashian Un If you want to troll people you should probably learn not to be so obvious. Not only did you reply to a positive comment, it's a positive comment by a well known youtuber AND you used a slur. It's way too obvious buddy, you're not going to piss off anyone when you're this bad. Not to mention you made your name some meme garbage. F- attempt.
Kim Kardashian Un Bugger off
"I don't want to fight with you, we're surviving in this shit world together and you'll always be my sister."
This was the best message I took from this. I feel like I was shit to my LGBTQ siblings during my "anti-SJW phase" because of petty bickering over aesthetics.
priestpilot glad to see you got out of that phase. Mine did not last long either
Two years on and I still come back to this video because it still burns my brain. What a great piece.
“I’ll only ever be a second-rate Justine, but I’m a first-rate Tabby.” That’s my fav
I am not trans, and although I am not going to say that my personal experience is equivalent to the situation expressed in this video, I can say that this really resonated with me.
I have always hated my looks, I have always been a tom boy, and I have always worked in male-led industries. For 25 years I didn't know how to really apply make up, I never style my hair, never wear anything other than work clothes, and act like a greasy line cook. I am not feminine.
But there is power in being feminine. When I do dress like a woman, EVERYONE changes how they treat me. They talk about how, "I clean up nice" and hold eye contact with me longer. They smile more, and people listen better.
I have always looked up to characters like Daria from MTV. I always wanted combat boots, crazy colored hair, and baggy ass Tripp pants with chains. I always wanted to be unabashedly me. But I find myself constantly hating feminine women for having society's love, approval, and attention. Hating them for making the effort to make themselves seen by society, and thus having power within it.
It is petty. It is childish. I want to dress like a sloppy poor dude and still be seen as beautifully feminine. But that isnt how it works. I am glad to be me, but I see the trade off in personal comfort vs social standing.
I feel like this video wasnt meant for cis girls like me. But it really resonates with me. Thanks for this, Nat. I don't know exactly how this video makes me feel. And I kinda like that
it's always nice to read interesting comments like this about a different perspective :)
I used to watch your videos a few years ago, think you'll go back?
HeartSongPony
As a heterosexual male I feel that I have been guilty at times of judging people based purely on aesthetics. It's extremely difficult not to be this way but I do try and that's why I'm here, to get a better perspective and stop reading a book solely by it's cover. Thankfully I live in NZ where most people here are less judgmental and perhaps more philosophical in their approach to others. I wish you good luck for your future and hope that your society learns to treat you justly.
As a male, I know women and men treat me better when I dress nicely. Consider it may also be outside gender and actually be that people are generally shitty.
And shallow
This is a common debate amongst people in marginalized groups. To what extent do you "play the game," acquiesce to the system for some personal benefit, safety or security, and to what extent do you challenge and resist, so as to not perpetuate systems of oppression? I think Contra trys to make strong arguments on each side of the debate to demonstrate the tensions and competing outlooks through character conversations. Reducing it to "Which viewpoint is Contra endorsing" is a little simplistic. I imagine she is more on the side of freedom of self expression and challenging gender essentialism and narrow gender presentation, but she probably sees the valid concerns of folks less on her side.
"To what extent do you "play the game," acquiesce to the system for some personal benefit, safety or security, and to what extent do you challenge and resist, so as to not perpetuate systems of oppression?"
That's not a minority experience. That's a human experience.
@@willfin3404 it is? i find that most people just fall in line and do what they've been socialised to do since their childhoods. very few people seem to question anything
@@willfin3404 Yes, but minoritized groups and minorities in general tend to run into that human experience more often, because they are often seen as at-least-somewhat representative of their social group. The pseudo-conversation Natalie conducts on this video, as well as the philosophical debate OP here posits, is pretty accurate to the kind of debates minoritized group members often have internally whenever they're reduced to tropes by other humans.
Disability too.
A "good disabled person" is submissive and sympathetic; but a "bad disabled person" talks about how it's not only disability but Ableism that causes real problems in our lives; (Alternatively, though; some people think that "being disabled" means being miserable all the time and never being happy, which isn't true either) but ultimately we depend on society to recognize our disabilitie(s) in order to be eligible for the benefits that "being disabled" implies. On forums and social media, such as Facebook; I struggle finding a happy medium between being the "strong, brave, stoic sick girl", being chill and normal, and showing those parts of my life that are actually hard.
Although I'm not "lying" about either side of myself (I'm both, because I have good days and bad) it's all a performance that requires balance and finesse to look like what a "sick girl" or a "disabled woman" is supposed to look like; without looking "too sick", "too well", or "too disabled."
(I particularly related to the part about how your "identity" can be taken away based on what other people think; because just as people with obvious physical disabilities have trouble being seen by others as "whole people"; or as anything other than just "disabled." People who are disabled with chronic illnesses, like me, are often told we "look fine" and therefore we must be fine. It all depends on what other people think, rather than our actual physical realities.)
I can even see how this relates to the Feminist/Trans/Racial issue; in the sense that people with obvious (aesthetic) physical disabilities are like biological women, and people with "invisible disabilities" are like trans women; who have to "prove" that they are disabled to societies and institutions; (like the government, in the form of social security for the disabled, and to the Department of Motor Vehicles for people who have transitioned from one gender to another) in much the way trans women need to prove themselves to others to be recognized as women; while the obviously physically disabled (amputees would be one good example) are often reduced to their disability; just like biologically born women are often reduced to their womanhood; and women of color are often reduced to being representatives or stereotypes of their race, by society.
ZM Dumpbox, you lost me at "minoritized". That is an ideological term and you shouldn't use it in a conversation with a stranger as if it had been established as accepted terminology.
Tabby's annoyed meowing as she's fighting with the shoes is still the cutest thing in the whole world.
When I binge like ten ContraPoints videos, I sometimes wonder how her house looks in person. Like, does it look like a film set? Because her set is fucking fantastic, and she has so many different settings. I want to know how much she uses in every video, which spaces overlap, et cetera. Fun question, really.
Some ContraFans have a theory that they pass around that Contrapoints is secretly a Time Lord and her house is a TARDIS. Every set in each of her videos is a different room in her vast house and every time she releases a new video with new scenery, a new room is added to her ever expanding ever increasingly labyrinthian home.
A lot of her sets are in grand hotel rooms, and other rented spaces, if you were actually wondering. But I totally agree it's such an interesting thought that she just has all these rooms in her house, I have a theory that all these sets are really just a reflection of the inside of Natalie's mind
"We are all born naked and the rest is literally drag." Existence precedes essence. I feel like Contra's basic point really applies to everyone, not just trans women.
that's the point.
@Lucy Logan
"Life is just death in drag"
- Xavier, the Renegade Angel
That's one of the many instances in which Natalie seems to believe in the concept of the blank slate. The idea that there's only culture, there's only performance. Despite the fact that she has a background in neuroscience, that still seems to be an idea that pervades most of her videos.
@@ErikvonStrongber i thought she was pursuing a philosophy PHD.
@@asuka_the_void_witch She did, but she studied cognitive sciences for a brief time too
.
I am a cis women and when I was in high school I was misgendered for the first time. To be fair to the group of boys I was wearing baggy clothes and a hat but the experience shook me to my core. It felt as if my womenhood was revoked.
As a guy with long hair, i feel you
I have been misgendered multiple times because my boobs are small, I wear baggy tops and I have a buzzcut. one time I felt relieved because there was a creep that was all lovey-dovey with two friends of mine, and the last time it happened I was a bit worried because some old men thought that I was another guy my friend sleeps with, even though she is faithful to her boyfriend. I don't want to make her look like a prostitute. sometimes I think it's fun to be misgendered, but I can't decide who, when and where I'll meet someone that does. and I still feel kinda ok to be a woman, just not 100%. I also have been misgendered once as a kid, because I had band tees and long hair, but I probably looked like a fat metalhead from behind... and my body had already blossomed. it sounded so weird, I knew I looked girly under my clothes. for the first time in my life (probably) I felt actively a bit angry and confused about how the others perceived me.
@@ramadansteve1715
I love it when some dummy catcalls from behind, then passes by and sees my beard.
I had that happen a lot. If it hurts as a cis person, it’s definitely terrible for a trans person to experience.
I'm a semi butch lesbian and I do get misgendered quite often. I know I look butch but I like being a woman. I cant help but get a lil sad when I get called sir. I know this is mostly my own doing.
"CIS women?! Well they're hopeless aren't they. Fully clockable" almost spat out my drink lmao
How can you be this attractive before during and after transition...pls help my bi soul
I invoke my straight white male privilege to have a valid opinion
You be you, if you don't feel beautiful enough to match Natalie in her style, try different ways and styles you like until you feel like you do, match or succeed her in ways only you as an individual can
@@cediviannareeda4305 she's not jealous cedivian she's gay
@@cediviannareeda4305 shes a lesbian, harold
lol
All of Western TH-cam is merely a footnote to ContraPoints.
If you still think "Western" is a term without racist connotations then you evidently didn't watch her video on "The West"
sadly not. If it was the content would be much better
Autumn uhhhh yeah I think this was a reference and also a joke
>If you still think "Western" is a term without racist connotations
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
It's a reference to this quote: "The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato."
In your pink illuminated mind, Reason and Empathy are married, to live in a cottage in the woods, overgrown with ivy, a picket fence, sunflowers in the garden. You've never given us an easy answer, even if the question was.
You're beautiful, and impressive, and you give something to youtube that was missing before.
I hope you feel good about yourself as often as possible.
Steph Brown
I really hope this wasn't stolen, it's too perfect
I only just noticed now, but I like how Tabby is constantly blowing on her tea to cool it down. Because she has a "cat tongue"!
"Your problem is you think you're in the Forum, when you're really in the Circus." I literally raised my hands and spun around like Carson Kressley. The most spot on observation i've heard in a long time. And i just noticed that the last poster said the exact same thing...
Really dug how the heavy conversation between Tabby and Justine ended with them being like "let's just try to be friends and try to escape this terrible world together". Maybe that's how I felt while watching this. Felt kinda melancholic. It feels almost hopeless and exhausting. I feel like maybe that was the goal here.
It's like people are trying to figure out the answer(s) to complicated questions and other folks are seizing that moment to come down on those people just for asking the questions in the first place.
I'm gonna play video games.
Do you own a switch?
what
Lyle Shnub - Video games are always the answer. You're a smart person. Cheers!
@Lyle Shnub
I think you just came very close to why the assorted "geeky" subcultures all get so pissy when people try to make their domains "about" politics. Sure, you can't entirely escape politics in any endeavor, but turning escapism into propaganda is, as Justine put it "ruining art."
Another way I put it to someone in the past is that the problem isn't that you want to make Steven Universe, the problem is that you want to turn whatever is popular into Gen Zed.
i think this is your least cis-accessible video yet, and i was going to say i was a bit worried about it because of OPTICS!!!!.. i then realised how ironic what i was saying was and realised how necessary this content is haha. i came out years ago and am perceived as a fairly "safe" trans guy to cis people - in that i generally pass as male and arent too feminine. ive seen people change their minds because of me, just like justine says. and she's right, that is powerful. i also think it lead to years of being afraid of not aligning with mindless drivel written in ftm passing guides and posts on susan's place about why a shirt with flowers on it or some shit will make me a fake man; trans spaces where people like tabby weren't even considered vaguely legitimate. that isn't right, either.
i'm not sure how to summarise my views on this video, i just want to say that i think it's one of my favourites. i'm not sure how many people will agree with that (i think if people do it'll mostly be other trans people lol), but i think it's got a lot to do with my being trans and growing up in trans spaces as a preteen and teenager on the internet. doubt you'll see this, but if you do, just know it really got me thinking. it's gross i still hear a voice in my head constantly telling me to be careful about what i say, how i look, what activities i do because of "optics" in trans activism. that, in itself, is fairly oppressive. this comment is a mess, have a nice day everyone!
Cis person finds this very accessible and loves it. Not contradicting. Just nodding happily; whilst still maintaining independence. Continue.
I'm cis and I also think this is one of her best videos. I could also relate to the philosophical question it poses. It's just that this video looks at fairly universal questions with a looking glass on the perspective of a trans women so to say.
Cis and loved it.
" i also think it lead to years of being afraid of not aligning with mindless drivel written in ftm passing guides ..." These sorts of things are prevalent in all circles of life...and they are for the most part just some person pushing their own ideas on others. Look on You tube and you will see videos saying stuff like "these are things no male should ever wear." or "These are the styles men like to see women in." or other such garbage. I also cringe when I see the "how to look more feminine" by Crossdresser groups, or trans groups. Again it is playing to the whole idea that things have genders and that styles are inherently (hence biologically) of one sex. It is aggravating, especially for gender non conforming individuals like myself.
agreed! but i think it's worth noting that in trans circles specifically these things were used as literal guides on transitioning, with little room for flexibility. like justine does here, it felt like we have a 'duty' to be as normative as possible in order for people to accept our existence as legitimate. it is absolutely bullshit, because you're right, none of these things are inherent about one's sex.
EDIT: I'm also glad a lot of cis people are able to relate and find it accessible. its simply that these types of conversations are often seen as "DONT LET THE CIS SEE" which, of course, is part of optics too, and is being broken down with time. which is great.
watching old vids cause i have the biggest crush on tabby
Me too
"You're born naked, the rest is drag." A quote from some of the great philosophers, RuPaul and Alaska Thunderfuck 5000.
we live in a society... of the spectacle
Hyper-reality.
we live in a society
Spectacular gamers rise up!
"Bottom Text" in cursive
everybody is an optican
Did you just reinvent the Socratic dialogue for the age of TH-cam? Because I think you did.
except in contrapoints it isn't one clearly ~superior~ speaker convincing several strawpeople
(Sarcasm) lol Plato called tf out
Here nobody comes out looking good
Jack Joiner its all over youtube
Lol she did that a while ago though
"That's a human rights violation. I gonna smash your fucking face."
The bit around 9:30-9:50 is something I as a cis woman have witnessed but have never been able to put a finger on. It’s so awkward for me as someone who considers themselves a feminist and a trans ally. so much of it seems almost overdone and I know it’s not my place to say anything... I figured the flamboyance was from years of pent up femininity, so I was always like, work it girl!! but so many trans women or femme gay men seem to feel this need to be on point 24.7. I now realize it’s not ‘on point’, it’s probably them getting caught up in the male ideals of femininity that cis women have had our whole lives to come to terms with. They get caught up in it bc that’s the dominating definition.... males have always defined what it means to be a woman. It means a lot to me to hear your explanation, and gives me more sympathy to know that the perfectionism and even competitiveness I see in them is a response to the same systematic oppression I deal with myself. I’ve given up on masculine ideals of perfection and I’m settling for the ideal of being comfortable with and confident in myself, but it’s taken me 26 years to come to this point. In the past there’s been a lot of times I’ve had my appearance made fun of my trans women or femme gay men, usually about how my clothes fit wrong or I didn’t wear enough makeup. i can’t prescribe a cause to every case but I fully in my heart understand the drive to appeal to a masculine ideal of femininity. I can understand now that it wasn’t entirely about me, in every instance, even though some of my jeans were actually too short for me lol. I know there’s so much more to their predicament than what I stated here. But I’m so grateful for what you said!
I'm a cis woman, and I totally relate. I've totally given up. I don't wear makeup or a bra, don't shave. I just wear sweats and man shirts, whatever is comfortable. I'm depressed, I have better shit to do, who cares. Justine is definitely right about me. 😂
But yeah, I've always been trapped between:
- Women can do whatever they want, of course, wear makeup and dress up, I don't care.
- But also, that fucks over every woman who doesn't want to. I know it's not up to them, but yeah. Just enforcing the standard and giving me someone to compare to.
Then trans women have no choice but to go all the way if they have any chance of passing and being accepted.
I hate when I see a woman for the first time without makeup, who always wears makeup...and it immediately stands out. My brain says she's not ugly, but at the same time the change is so big and she looks so weird, her eyes are so small, etc. You can't wear makeup everyday without that becoming you.
I'm terrified of that, I won't let it happen to me because I don't want to wear makeup always. It's trapped between always or never. I want women to feel fine doing always, but I don't like how corporations are making billions of dollars off of women having to wear makeup every single day in order to not look weird.
Don't even get me started on shaving and having to cover my nipples, I'm so over getting to watch men roll out of bed and run outside without a shirt on.
But yeah, that is where any "TERF" feelings would come from in me. It's just a fact, women are stuck in a rock and a hard place. Including trans women definitely. Performing femininity which just gives corporations money and furthers the high standards set for beauty for women. I don't see a way out.
That's my rant.
I'm on your side!
I feel you.
Sometimes I feel stuck between just doing and wearing whatever the hell I want to, and responding to seeing photos of georgeous, styled women with flawless make up, and a carefully blown out hair with feeling like I’m failing to live up to those standards of femininity.
And sometimes looking pretty and feminine validates something in me, makes me feel more valuable...which shouldn’t really be the case, but, well, performing our gender is something we can’t always run away from, since it’s so ingrained. And I don’t always want to, yet there’s always this slight inner tension somewhere inside me. While I can feel sensual while wearing a cute dress, rouge and heels, I also feel like since it’s something society requires of me regardless of my feelings, I want to rebel against it.
I totally agree! I also think some of it is, if cis women don't put much effort into their appearance, their womanhood isn't questioned, it's just like "wow you look sick/tired/ugly" or whatever, but the implication is still that you're a sick/tired/ugly WOMAN, whereas if a trans woman doesn't put work into her appearance, her whole womanhood is questioned
I'm not trans, but I'm mixed race and have found throughout life that things like the race of the person next to me, what my hair color is dyed, what I'm wearing, the food I'm eating, or what language I can speak influences peoples' racial and cultural perception of me. You're not just dealing with general and societal perspectives and expectations either, but personal and individual ones as well. I completely agree that things in general boil down to just aesthetic.
dzsm239
Yes, in post-colonial countries (except racist one blood drop rule US) social class, education and habits can be used as a leverage to make society treat you better.
For example I remember a debate on Fox News where the anchor was talking about drug dealers and randomly said to the person he was talking to “you look like one by the way”. My jaw dropped. It was a man with a PhD in an expensive suit. He was treated like trash only because he was black. No one would say anything like that to a person of his education and upbringing in Europe or Latin America, for example.
Watching this video was like watching a performance of my own internal monologue when I argue with myself about what it is to be a trans woman
It was really interesting for me, someone who isn't a trans woman, to see how many people related to this video in the comments like you do. I think maybe it gave me a bit more perspective.
I'm glad this video exists, but I'm halfway through and I'm not exactly sure that it's good for my current state of mind. Trans women experience this sort of inner dialogue so much and hearing it can encourage it.
Same but catgirl fucking won my brain over
Felt the same way. I always identify with the characters in her videos. It's like she's my avatar on the internet. Weird af.
I think that's exactly what this video was supposed to be.
“The 21st century is an aesthetic century. In history there are ages of reason and ages of Spectacle. It is important to know which one you’re in. Our America, our internet is not ancient Athens it’s Rome. The problem is you think you’re in a forum but really you’re in a circus. (....) Reason is a very powerful aesthetic- if you are a man.”
I feel like that summarizes my struggle as a teen with myself and society
This one of those Contrapoints vids where almost every line spoken feels like an epiphany. We love that.
"The left will abide a regal queer"
I never knew how *desperately* I needed that in a T-Shirt
Celia M. Fuck a t shirt I need that on a gold-backed brooch
The answer here is that Tabby's aesthetic is more compelling than Justine's. Justine aspires to art pompier while Tabby is in the salon des refuses, doing radical experiments not everybody likes but nobody can look away from. Justine wants to be recognized by the present, Tabby wants to be recognized by a better future. Aesthetics has never just been about pleasing everybody all the time.
nicely put
Noctale I would like to add something to your statement. The video is also about bigots being bigots, and not changing their minds.
+
"Do not under any circumstances imitate cis-women. They have no idea what they're doing" -I feel this so hard
"Does your identity matter, does a genuine expression of your identity matter, or does passing matter" is the Real Shit. It's not even two sides of a debate, it's a whole mess, and thank you for showing it rather than telling it, because it's definitely not just something you can tell people.
Signed, a non-passing nb who never gets recognized anyway and decided "fuck it, i'll do what i want for now"