How STICKS Are SABOTAGING Speedrunners (Stick Crisis History)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
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Description:
A stick population crisis has been plaguing Nintendo 64 speedrunners for the last 10+ years - especially Super Mario 64 and Super Smash Bros competitive players. Many people have tried various methods to solve the problem over the years - CNC machining, plastic injection, 3D printing, etc. However, a curse seems to have afflicted almost all those who have tried to tackle the problem...
Timestamps:
0:00 The Problem
2:32 The Crisis Unfolds
5:46 The Solution...?
10:48 The Failed Attempts
21:30 State of the Stick Address
Music Credit:
Karl Casey @WhiteBatAudio - เกม
PEEP THE DISCORD: discord.gg/9jpZnzcbZg
bro fuck speedrunning.
Massive respect to Andy for managing to refund everyone. Seems like he just underestimated the difficulty of the project.
People spend their lives mastering injection molding parts. It is very difficult and expensive, moreso when you aren't an expert.
I honestly think he should have kept the money. None of what he did while attempting to fulfill his promise was cheap or easy. He earned that money.
@@thematt6705It's kinda the least he could've done for people who were waiting for so long, especially if he did keep the money people on twitter would spark up controversy of him keeping the money
@@thematt6705 I agree that he wasn't liable to pay it back, he took on a venture genuinely did his best. People come down hard you regardless of circumstance-and some will tend to assume the worst-when kickstarters fail, it's almost part of what you sign up for in crowdfunding.
If you have the means to pay it back it's the right thing to do, and it definitely goes further than just clearing your name, shows a lot of integrity and character. I hope he waited till he was stable enough financially, but mad respect for him for doing that.
@@thematt6705 Yeah it's the risk of Kickstarter sadly enough, you don't buy a product but moreso invest in it. That said it seems a lot of these sellers/makers took way too many orders without being able to fulfill them
Imagine if this video ended with: "Now I present you my mass-produced stainless steel stick."
Damn. That would hit hard, like goose bumps actually hit me just thinking it. It has been a long wait. Who ever does complete this task is going to be a God.
Lol, I was fully expecting Retro to finish the video just like that (whether he added later that "it was just a joke" would be a coin-toss).
Was kinda hoping the original SteelSticks guy would make a comeback at the end...
Or just a "God gift unbreakable joysticks falling from the sky"
3d printing would make that possible
1:54 - This "achilles heel" of the N64 stick was probably discovered by everyone within the first year who ever owned a N64 console.
i was about to say the n64 controller was the biggest piece of trash I've ever used. I remember having to press so hard it would bruise my fingers in certain games.
Or the first month if you played Mario Party 1.
My family and friends and I all treated our controllers with care, didn't smash the analog stick hard and grind the plastic, and mine was working fine 20 years later when I gave it away.
Yes, they could have been built better, but people just hammered them too damn hard, which is understandable for little kids, but not older kids, teens, or adults.
@@inthefade The point is it's a speed running issue, the problem is a lot of these people do this kind of thing as a job, and many more are also spending that much time, aspiring to also do it as a job. For them they are using the controllers in 40 hour work weeks, lapping the time your family would have spent using them in those 20 pretty quickly, and the nature of speed running will force many longer, much faster jolts of the thing.
@@inthefade it's understandable for anyone of any age. With arcade sticks, this was called "riding the gate". It's entirely normal for people to be hard on sticks.
Congrats on your gentle hands I guess.
nintendo: makes n64 sticks with notoriously bad longevity
nintendo: also makes Mario Party
I work at a big machine shop with very experienced machinists, and engineers. I will talk to some of them about this video and see if any of them are interested in tackling this.
Doooooooooooooooo iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitt
Would the shop as a company allow for such endeavors as this?
@@Roccondil Quite a few of the machinists have their own smaller machines and shops that they run as a side business. As for the engineers, I know a few who really enjoy a challenge.
That was my first thought too. I've been in Japan for a while so I'm not actively in contact anymore. But there's a reason experts are called experts.
And this is how it started. @acrawford01 was a well meaning guy but he underestimated the problem. He and his friends produced a prototype, it worked well (at least for the first two months). They launch a kickstarter to get some money so they could get the machines and materials to do the serial production. The price was high (or that is what they tough) but once they started making the damn things that indeed they were subsidizing the sticks.
He could not hold it together, even if he could make the production three times faster he would only be earning a minimum salary. People were angry at him some for asking too much money for a piece of metal others for closing the queue after 500 people signup.
It took him two years to go through the 500 orders time that could have been better spent working at a Mc Donals. People would have been nicer to him, his sons would not have to see all those horrible memes about his father, that random dude would not have broken his nose at the parking loot while yelling "REEEEEEEEE I lost my world record because of you".
@acrawford01 after sending the last of the sticks looking himself at the mirror wished that some one had wrote a youtube comment telling what will happen before he decided to fabricate the damn thing.
Seeing lunarjump go from raging and complaining, to finally being happy with his new stick is unironically a weirdly wholesome thing to see.
Goes through all the 5 consecutive stages of grief and it worked out for him in the end.
Lol right?
Yeah, success at the end for him was a real vindication for his complaints. He knew exactly what his problem was, even if it made him look ridiculous in his delivery of it.
Lunarjump's arc was definitely the best part of the video.
Get it, arc? Hehe.
It seems odd that the original steel stick couldn’t outsource to other machinists, also have people send in their controllers when buying. And if money was the issue, it seems like he could have bumped the price to 250
It's not all about the money, the process of manufacturing a steelstick seems to have been very time consuming. Dedicating your career life to just producing sticks for an over 2 decade old controller and nothing else could be soul crushing in the long run, let alone if he made these sticks in his free time.
Keep in mind that Linus was a machinist, not a businessman. What seems obvious to some might come hard to others.
Teaching other people to make the sticks, assure that they were up to the quality of his sticks, preventing the others from starting on their own the second they learned from him... That and a million other issues is why he probably thought "It is easier if I just do it myself", ending with the result we got. I've seen this happen with many different types of creators, and often times they need managers to prevent knowledge from being lost.
yeah if he outsourced it to some fabricators, the costs of materials is so small and there is no feasible means of anti copying that the design and specs would be quickly shared with some contact in china and the stick would be getting cloned and resold for $5 on Ali-express within a week, granted I would've thought someone in china would've just dropped the $300 or so to get an original to scan/measure and mass reproduce by now, I guess inevitably the quality would take a sharp hit and the clones would no doubt be snapping after a few weeks of use, I would say if he was dropping out of production he probably should've just dropped all the design files for people to try to reproduce the sticks to his exact specs, but I guess it was more of a passion project for him nd he didn't want to see mass produced copies using sub-par materials to cut costs sullying the reputation of his original design
@@SertFilzonI think it would be good to make sticks and automate as demand rises
The need for original controllers was mentioned. It seems likely the process was more involved than just making the metal stick. These days with scanning and multi-axis computer controlled milling I suspect making the stick its self is the easiest part. Based on other failures it sounds likely the hard part is getting donor controller parts in good shape and the calibration. Making each of these may have been a painful tedious process that even at high expense didn’t really pay for the amount of labor.
I'm no engineer but I know a little about design and systems. It's not just a problem with the stick, it's a problem with the entire housing and gears being plastic. The part of the controller that has notches, it can't be softer than your steel stick or you'll just wear into them, they need to be metal as well. Also, the market is small, maybe in the 1000's so volume will be low, so profits will be low. It's not something easy to fix. Wish you guys the best of luck.
The biggest problem seems to be Keeping Up With Demand.
People are able to create solid, durable sticks as replacements but *so many people* want to get their hands on them that it's impossible to keep up in a timely manner with an operation of One Single Dude.
It's not what people want to hear, but the way you solve this is by increasing the price until the point where you're able to keep up with demand. Over time, the manufacturing process becomes easier as you understand potential problems, then you lower the price incrementally when you're able to produce more than you can sell.
@@MetroAndroidit's too niche of a market.
Based on the video, they were only dealing with hundreds of orders.
For something like this to be remotely feasible, it needs to be thousands, if not tens of thousands, of orders. Otherwise it'll never get past the extremely expensive phase.
And the fact is that producing these things small scale is an extremely expensive and time consuming process.
@@link1565V2 I'm not even saying go up to $1000. But I think it's pretty clear from this video that most people who have spent many 100s of dollars on mixed quality sticks by this point would be willing to buy a durable, known good one for $500-$600. Which puts producing it in the range of $100,000 a year before part costs (using the production rate of the original steel stick), much more appropriate for the time investment.
@@link1565V2 Too small of a market? By what metric?
The first guy offering them sold 400, at $150 each. That is $60,000 net. Then they were sold later on for $600+, meaning the real market value of his controllers if demand could be satiated was probably $250-350 or more. And he had to close orders so we don't know what the real demand even was, but successive attempts by other companies also selling out indicates it has significant demand. This was easily a $250,000 market, maybe double that, possibly even more. Yes that is net, but the margins on something like this should be at least 50%, if not 80% or more, as most of the cost is the service of offering the controller. Depending on the state, you can also save some tax cost by declaring it as a refurbishment "service" rather than selling "good" but thats getting into the weeds a little bit.
It just requires a little business savvy, and working with local machine shops to outsource certain components; maybe even hiring some local gamers to help build the finished products or offering them as DIY installation kits with thorough instructions.
@@link1565V2 they were only *allowing* hundreds of orders; the original steel stick would've had *thousands* if not for the forced waiting list size.
moral of the story is that mario 64 speedrunners are shockingly efficient at destroying original hardware
Yeah, I'm just like ?HOW? All of mine are still working great decades later and I played that thing every day for hours.
And I’m sitting here, with all 5 of my original perfectly working controllers, thinking about how this is why I can’t afford good quality hardware in different colors. 😢
Aswell as horrible at keeping things professional between them.
Is there a term for something even less relatable than a First World Problem, because I think this fits into that category
Nerd problems?
@@thecianinator Speedrunner Problems
A Zeroth World Problem, if you will.
0th world problem
I am a machinist. And leading up to the 7 min mark I was thinking "I can make a replacement sticks out of steel or stainless and sell them online!" But of course I'm late to the party as usual 😅
You'd probably make good money but I'm thinking the reason this hasn't been done is time investment of highly skilled labor.
I mean hasn't successfully been done haha.
You're not late, there's still plenty of room.
And competition is always healthy in a market - keeps everyone on their toes and trying to provide the best cost-quality ratio to customers.
Same, not really a machinist, but I've got a lathe and I was just sitting over here like "Surely it cant be that hard to rip a few sticks out of round-stock stainless or delrin to replace the broken sticks themselves".
Couldn't this be CNC lathed and then hand-polished? Or is it simply too precise? If people are spending up to like $10k to make prototypes... why hasn't this been considered? Or am I missing something completely obvious (I'm not a machinist, but I do like watching their work on YT!).
It should be absolutely CNC-able. But the thing with the original steelstick was that it came pre-installed in a plug-n-play modual for the controller. The sticks were calibrated already, and known to be good. I imagine that a huge part of the issue isn't just the stick itself, but the full cup, stick, and electronics installation.
Even if the stick was very precise and machines struggled to reproduce it, you could still go through the effort to produce a single perfect one, and then use it as a physical following template like a panta-router.
A lot of the money spent was probably spent on the time to learn to do all of it, the missing equipment someone needed, and the stuff to practice on. As you can see with steel-stick, there were also a lot of N64 controllers that needed harvesting. @@koozmusic
Steelstick price was nowhere near high enough! Custom high precision machining with refurbished parts. Boy should have been charging $500 out the gates.
Agreed, he probably should have started at 1000
He should have auctionned them one by one, would have been a millionaire
Nobody ever said that speed runners had any common sense. At the end of the day they are just addicts that are wasting their life away. Without any real sense street smarts you could have priced this at 500 easily.
I think that would have beer a poor decision because that just invites anyone with a beer league machine shop to move in at a cheaper price.
Hey dude! I appreciate the shout and man this is such a big problem to solve, thanks for shedding light on it and im looking forward to the day when we can make it to the promise land 🙌
Yo really happy to see you comment and wishing you the best of luck on your project!
I appreciate that brother 🙏
screencap this when they fail/scam
@@Coffeemancer please feel free, if i fail, i fail. I will not sell a product until it's good. It's just not the way I do things. I fund all R&D and production costs myself and have a track record to prove it.
K putting the picture on my google drive.
I don't care about speed running, but N64 joystick breaking Is why I'm really here lol
i second that.. i’ve broken three 😂
Try Kitsch Bent
Same
I bought gamecube styke joysticks for my own controllers its amazing
Indeed
I have a feeling 3DS game speedrunners may end up in a similar boat eventually.
Why?
@nico2441 Because the 3DS Circle Pad is also unique, the Circle Pad modules that are available are all new old stock, and almost all the aftermarket Circle Pad caps are just solid plastic with an anti-slick coating.
The speedrunners need to stick together to make an alternative. If they want this scene to stick around much longer, they must stick their neck out on the line and stop being a stick in the mud.
The generally toxic reactions of the speedrunners featured in the video did not inspire confidence.
I would hope that most of them are more collaborative with the people who send them prototypes...I mean seriously, if the "Prestige stick" was such garbage, why keep using it? Go back to the loose plastic sticks which are both plentiful and ostensibly superior >_>
Yeah stick it too them
@@GairaiJo they don't stick by their own convictions.
@@aijx4223 I see what you did there :b
@@GairaiJo what can I say... I'm a stickler for puns.
This is so melodramatic in the most sarcastic way lmao.
It's fantastic. it's an important issue for the speedrunning community, of course, but the purposefully dry way in which the script is read really makes it feel like a historical documentary on the folly of man or something. I laughed so hard when they started talking about the "stick black market" or people were bragging about how "tight their sticks were".
Speed runners really ought to be leading the charge on solving this issue instead of whining and acting entitled about it. After all, they are the ones accelerating the wear and tear of these controllers more than anyone else.
That’s exactly what I’m thinking. Like I still have a controller my dad got with his console and it has no issues.
The entitlement is very strong. Just blaming someone else for their problems.
Have we watched the same video?
How can you just say "just fix it" to someone who has a problem in a completely different industry.
Imagine going to a farmer and saying "oh you have a problem with your tractor, well arent you entitled why dont you go manufacturer it".
Like that isn't a really fair expectation????
@@TheKastellan you have to understand, contrarianism online is the only way they can finish anymore,
@@TheKastellanImagine comparing technically proficient farmers who must maintain their own equipment and perform repairs in the field to gender confused nerds on the spectrum playing the same level on a video game 16 hours a day 🧐
All of my life choices have led to me watching an almost 24 minute documentary about the quest for perfect replacement Nintendo 64 analog sticks and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Hall effect steel is the end goal for all control devices. Currently ... potentially later we have even more accurate measurement systems for sticks. Exceptional machinist as well.
Why would you want hall effect over optical?
@@nahometesfay1112 i guess it comes down to magnets vs beam of light . I can see your reasoning .
@@nahometesfay1112 Fewer moving parts, fewer parts to wear out. All other consoles are moving towards hall effect sticks and they have great durability and no drift issues.
@@kered13 But that's compared to the potentiometer joy sticks that most modern controllers use. The N64 controller uses optical sensors which should have all the advantages you described. In industrial settings hall effect sensors are considered inferior, but that's due to electrical interference which shouldn't be an issue for video games. I genuinely don't know if optical or hall effect is better in this use case.
Sega got it right with the Dreamcast controllers. Still have both of my originals, with well over 7000 hours on each, and the sticks work flawlessly to this day. Best analog stick ever. Just needed some padding on the end, instead of the raised dots. Those things are like razor blades until they wear off. 😂
"Open-source" isn't gonna solve this problem. Anyone who has the original N64 controller in decent shape can take measurements, and if they have a decent camera (either smartphone+app or some homemade Raspberry Pi-like setup) can even perform rudimentary photogrammetry on the stick if needed. The problem is the combo of materials, durability, production, and availability, and open-sourcing what is likely a patented design is gonna result in peeps blaming the design being bad rather than the final producer of the product for implementing the design incorrectly either through material choice, production methods, cutting corners on design aspects, or some combo of the three.
Patents are all expired. You can share the designs online and some people already did. Trying to make money off them on the other hand... it's Nintendo, do you really wanna risk?
I got replacement parts from Kitsch Bent. The fact that they’re not on this list probably means they’re not great for speedrunning but for a casual player, I’m satisfied.
I'm curious to hear what speedrunners think of them. $1.71 for a stick is pretty damn cheap. I've also noticed many other options just by quickly searching on TH-cam, and I wonder why none of those are considered viable.
I agree, I casually speedrun and once I broke in my Kitsch Bent bowl and stick the feel has been great
these are pretty good. ive never speedrun before but i play smash64 and these were very good for that. when i got mine there was a bit of post processing you have to do before installing (cleaning off the flashing from the mold). also putting a little grease where the stick rubs the plastic helps them last longer.
I used to speedrun Sm64 and Sm64 ROM hacks and I used Kitsch Bent sticks. I thought they were great, at least at my skill level. I suppose if I was replacing them every 9-12 months, a more avid speed runner would be doing every 3-6 months. But still, it doesn't take too long to replace them. And perhaps yes, top level runners with more demand for precision may have more to say about them. For 99% of people, though, they're good enough, albeit not a very permanent solution.
saw it mentioned elsewhere in replies that they're not up to speedrunning standard.
I had similar (causal, not speedrunner) experience with kitsch-bent being insanely inexpensive, but plenty good enough for me personally. all their stuff I've bought I've been quite happy with.
I didn't even know about all this drama. I bought a Steel stick in 2016 (waited over a year for delivery) but never installed it in my controller. I think it's sitting in a bin in my garage.
Bro how much for it :p
just auction it for max money at this point
I'll buy it!
auction it for the price of a car!
@@Suigihope you told him why and who you are ^^
There are actually a wide variety of modern replacement controllers with the more modern potentiometer mechanisms that all new controllers use, but they never seem to have the precision of the original. Nintendo created the analog stick, but it took them a long time to learn to not make games reliant on hair-trigger sensitivity.
Honestly, I kinda like the hair trigger sensitivity. Modern games don't give the same depth of control. The curve is all wrong.
@@wolfetteplays8894 But that hair trigger sensitivity is why third party controllers are never as good, and why it's so easy to lose that precise control when the stick gets the slightest bit worn.
I mean, it's more like, they could get away with making worse and worse hardware and people would still use it. Trying to play a n64 game on joycons is one of the worst experiences I've had while gaming. And the switch pro isn't that much better. In fact, I don't know many instances where anything newer than a GameCube controller has been lauded as a must have for precision control. Where xbox has been making continuous improvements to the design of their controller, and even sony has its fanbase of loyal users, Nintendo continues to make some of the strangest choices when it comes to actual usability. Even disregarding stick drift and extra features of questionable functionality, the wireless connectivity is very poor and has significant input delay. Even just the build quality is not great on first party nintendo controllers, they all feel hollow, have huge tolerances, have hand exfoliating seams, and the triggers have always been too spongy and loose, or just a microswitch.
This is hilarious! great job!!
Yooo the GOAT himself!! Thanks
@@retro-meister 💛
missed opportunity to have the thumbnail say time is (s)ticking
time i sticking
That thumbnail really would have been the carrot on the stick
Why be such a stickler?
Time'sticking
I would have stick to this suggestion
I'm surprised Kitsch-Bent wasn't mentioned in this video. I'm a repair technician and use their sticks and bowls exclusively. I love the result, and while I haven't put them in a speedrunner's hands everyone I know who has tried them says they feel brand new.
I came in the comments to mention kitsch bent. You can repair your stick for pretty cheap with those parts.
I'm surprised too considering you can go to Kitsch-Bent right now to order and have your parts delivered in a timely manner, no drama. Due to availability, I can guarantee more controllers have Kitsch-Bent parts in them over any of the sticks mentioned in this video. It's just not as cool of a talking point vs an expensive, hard to obtain steel stick or some of the complete flops.
@@DCourtwreck Yeah I for sure see the appeal of the Steel Stick and other custom stick stories, but to name the video "How the STICK CRISIS is SABOTAGING Speedrunners!" And then not mention the most well known, easily obtainable and affordable option is really strange. Hope to see some form of update or response from @retromeister about this
Yup! I just made another order. Nothing beats these N64 sticks.
Right, I agree with you. I think the gamers are just too lazy/afraid to open their controllers and make a good solution for 3-4 bucks and 10-15 minutes of their time. They want an elite product, and they want to spend big money on it. It's so foolish. They are basically a 1:1 replica, with more durable materials. They all come out extremely well if you just put a tiny bit of care into them when assembling.
But no, people don't want the sticks that last a long, long time for cheap, they want the sticks that last "forever" for expensive-a product of our consumerist culture. I think the steelsticks are more of a flex than anything, it's not a revolutionary product that outperforms the competition in any significant way. It's just like apple crap.
This all comes down to people wanting to spend money on a solution instead of fixing it themselves cheap, easy, and good. I blame our throwaway culture that has been socially engineered into nearly everybody. It baffles me that Kitsch Bent was not mentioned. I do runs with them, I play smash with them, I put them through diagnostics to ensure I have the full range of inputs necessary for top play (not even OEM sticks can ensure this) my play is not in the least bit affected. I never get any sort of ghost input or stick hang. My inputs are precise.
I wanted a steelstick at one point, or a steel bowl at the least, and I still sorta do, but not at that price.
I just don't get it. Maybe people who have tried to replace with kitsch bent just suck at fixing things, and they don't have the patience to sand down a little flashing and the center alignment peg underneath the bowl, and make a perfect stick that will last. So they will pay 500 bucks instead lololol. Kinda ironic that speedrunners would lack patience and attention to detail, but I guess fixing isn't their game.
For people who don't mind a non original feel, 8bitdo sells a high quality all effect joystick for the n64. Closer in feel to a GC stick than the original, but is precise and can be afforded by an ordinary person.
This. Speedrunners just need to get a fkn life.
@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 angry gamer detected.
sure, they were acting ridiculous and childish on camera.
but if they need a better stick to play to the level they do, then they need a better stick. that part at least is reasonable.
just the part where they are badmouthing the creators trying to help out the community is unreasonable.
Suprised you didnt mention Kitsch-Bent replacements. The sticks are far from perfect but I play casually and to be able to get 95% back for two controllers for a only a few bucks is absolutely amazing. It seems your focus here was for more precise sticks which Kitsch-Bent never claimed to be. Very cool video!
Im really surprised this wasnt mentioned either. I rebuilt 4 with these parts and they all work great.
I've noticed a whole slew of other products with just some basic searches, and though the reviewers are positive, it must be that their standards are more akin to yours and mine and that they don't even merit a mention in the context of speedrunning.
Yes, that's generally the case@@inthefade
@@retro-meister Kitsch-Bent is still better than some of the actual dumpster fires you did mention, and they're readily available.
Doesn’t fit the narrative…FAKE STICK NEWS!!!!
Andy is awesome for coming back and refunding everyone. It seems he spent that money on development and just failed, which is just a risk of investing in a new venture, but that he came back is incredible.
I own a CNC machine shop. We make aerospace components and engines. We can absolutely make these, but they will be expensive. Estimated MSRP will be $2,000. BUT, they will be made to the same standards as components used in aerospace vehicles.
military grade n64 stick 😭😭
@@Ari-kd7zdThat's literally what I'm proposing. If the market needs it that bad, then my company can deliver. But it won't be cheap.
I can make those on 10-45 Stainless steel bro chill @@smh9902
The availability seems the be the biggest issue. Once that is solved the sticks should be within price range for everyone I use a knock off stick and it's pretty bad compared to my friends steelstick.
That SECOND fake call really fucking got me. The video pause and then vibrate sound made me think I was getting a work call 😂
Awesome video as always man. I love being able to watch and understand the lore of this stuff without actually being part of the speed running community myself. You do a very thorough job at not only explaining things, but doing so in a genuinely interesting way. Keep it up dude.
I refurbished my n64 controller with cheap Kitsch-Bent parts last year and it's been awesome for my needs. calibrates perfectly
N64 sticks affect my life in no way whatsoever but this was a very captivating and well-presented story. Establishing a National Strategic N64 Stick Stockpile while we fund our best and brightest minds to develop renewable and durable alternatives is now my #1 voting issue this November.
Until those better sticks stop being unreasonably unobtanium, I'll stick with the much cheaper but effective 8bitdo Hall Effect joystick module.
These are almost as precise as the original mint N64 stick and lag-free due to natively outputting values the N64 is expecting. Shame that they didn't went mimicking the exact N64 octogonal gate. Still better than the Brawler64 Controller's potentiometer approach.
How do the 8BitDo Hall Effect replacement sticks stack up? Why is optical still the best medium for measuring stick position?
Optical is the best because of the lower latency and the finer control given to the player. This is why some early gamecube games can be hard to control because Nintendo just switched to potentiometers
That doesn't answer the question lmao, they compared optical to hall effect not potentiometer
@@Anthony-zm2nq this is speedrunning so changing the stick to a hall effect one is probably deemed against the rules
To no one's surprise, a thin plastic stick tends to break when some dork abuses it and angrily smashes it about after failing to do a backjump in super mario baby game for the 18th hour in a row. Speedrunners are all speedrunning heart attacks lmao
2:40 do i have to seriously worry about my well-being if i immediately recognized that those buzzing sounds meant a Bogdanoff meme?
As an engineer, a general maker of things, and a retro gamer.... This just boggles my mind. Linus seemed to have had a good thing going with the Steel Stick... There's really no reason he couldn't have outsourced to other machinists, brought on people to help, or even just gotten a really nice CNC lathe that could just churn out a hundred parts from a single piece of bar stock in half an hour with no human intervention... It sounds like speedrunners would've totally understood if he needed to raise the price, especially if it meant orders would begin to see fulfillment in a more reasonable timeframe. (He could've easily replaced one of his big lathes with two precision CNC watchmaker's lathes for that kind of money.)
Andy's plan with injection molding his own sticks wasn't bad either, but I'd wager he didn't put enough into the material sciences side... Plain ABS is NOT going to cut it...the OEM stick proves that.
The problem with ProStick is it relies entirely on the resin you use... There's definitely some engineering resins out there that would withstand a fair amount of punishment... But at the end of the day, the lever itself simply should _not_ be 3D printed.
Man, fuck scalpers. Can we literally not have ANY NICE THINGS? I would go full-on paranoid if I started selling a product like this... I'd request a video of them playing a game, where they hold up a piece of paper with something written on it, as proof I'm selling to someone who needs a stick, and not just some scumbag reseller.
Here's what I see as the ideal fully re-engineered stick: Steel Stick style metal lever and bowl assembly. Glass fiber reinforced nylon injection molding for the outer stick housing. A mixture of CNC milled and EDM metal parts for the optical disks, gears, gimbal etc.
So, fun fact: If you've ever wished you could test the sticks of N64 controllers you found at a thrift store or a yard sale or something...guess what? YOU CAN. The Open Source Cartridge Reader (OSCR) has an optional N64 controller port, and while this is mostly intended for reading/writing controller paks, it can also be used to do a function test of all the controller buttons, as well as to profile and characterize the performance of the analog stick. (I'm personally working on writing some code to add rumble pak testing to it as well.) The OSCR (especially the more compact older v3 hardware) is portable and can run off a USB powerbank. Making it totally possible to test controllers "in the field". 😃👌
It seems like the chokepoint with Linus' steel sticks was sourcing all the other parts (plastic housing, etc) for the steel sticks, not the machining.
@@MGMan37 Yeahhhh, having to build out complete joystick units from scavanged parts is such a bizarre concept anyway... I'm sure the people the product was aimed at would have been happy with just the new parts. 🤔 (Or as another comment suggested, have people send in their joystick module to get rebuilt)
It's 2024... if you're still selling joysticks that are potentiometer based instead of Hall effect, you're just screwing over your costumers and you know it.
I work on arcade machines that have been using Hall effect sensors since the 80's... No issues and they still work perfectly after decades of HARD public arcade use. They're almost unbreakable... We have an "Escape from the Planet of the Robot Monsters" (yes, that's the actual name of the game) that has been on locations since 1989... it's Hall effect sensors (all 4 of them) are original and work PERFECTLY to this day after nearly 35 years of play.
It seems like we're starting to see a trend towards Hall Effect sensors. Gulikit showed that there is a demand for them for sure. Gulukit's design hasn't been without faults though and so there's still some work to do on that front. At least, I personally went through 4 sets of Joy Con sticks from Gulikit that all had defects of some kind before I gave up. My Steam Deck ones fared better, but one does have a minor defect that creates an audible click sound, though I haven't seen any problems with stick position related to it yet.
Companies like Nintendo have known they're screwing over customers for decades. It's only recently gotten extra egregious (joycons) but potentiometer joysticks are cheap and they know people will buy the controllers anyway. This is what companies do, they prioritize increasing profits over making a good product.
@LilacMonarch it actively benefits them to sell terrible components because they know people will buy replacements when they break and earn them more profit
yayy capitalism
@@adeptfelix Gulikit has QA issues for sure, but I find their joysticks work fine. Luckily my only issue with their king kong 2 pro is a squeaky A button.
Guitar Hero players are having this exact same issue. A USB guitar controller from the 360 goes for $100 regularly, as its so hard to find compatible working controllers to play...
I have a Wii one probably worthless lol
I'm surprised Clone Hero hasn't gotten a good 3rd party peripherals scene like StepMania. The demand seems pretty obviously there.
@@KaitouKaijuwii guitar hero guitars are better than the xplorers for professional play since the raphnet adapter or etsy adapters that imitate it can get higher response time than xplorers
@@QWERTYCommanderit’s too much effort to make one because it’s more sophisticated than just pads. A 5 fret guitar needs a whammy,5 neck button,strumbar, and starpower button on the body. 3d printing an intricate guitar body is impossible because it’s very big
I see them all the time at goodwill
What a great video on such a niche topic. It's incredible that this didn't become the standard for sticks considering their precision, especially with how expensive controllers are these days. Surely the difference between the tech in an N64 stick and potentiometers would be minimal in terms of production price at this point in time for large companies like Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo.
The era of stickdeath is back.
So glad to see you posting again, great video about a subject I hadn't considered.
I know now what will fund my retirement.
Immune to stick drift? Yes!
Immune to drifting stick? No!
I tend to watch a few speedrunners especially if the show their progress so I was really invested in this video. Thank you for making this video and detailing everything. I never even knew that this had went on.
Thank you for all of your work.
I like this documentary style of video and often look for videos like this. Your video has provided me with such much needed information on a problem I had no idea was even a big deal within the SM64 speedrunning community. Thank you for this wonderful video!
Little infos: the original ps1 controller had no analog sticks, they released one with analog sticks 3-4 years later
My n64 had so much stick drift within the first year. I recall Mario running in circles, bond just moving to the right. They weren’t perfect.
Yeah, tbh when I mentioned the drift at the beginning it was an oversimplification/badly worded, it's just that the problem manifests different than how it does on the modern controllers (the mechanism is totally different so you can't really compare them directly)
@@retro-meisternot the only issue in that section. Some modern controllers use hall-effect senors. I'd doubt that these are less precise/ accurate than n64 sticks. Also these are pretty much immune to drift. They are more common on third party controllers tho.
@@tillmann1337 No first-party controller has one except Sega. Not Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Valve, Google, or Amazon.
@@bootmii98not yet, but I'd be willing to bet that next gen will have them.
@link156V2 I highly doubt it. The only first-party controller with Hall Effect sticks is the Sega Dreamcast to my knowledge, so several console generations ago. So why didn't other companies use that technology until now? With many people complaining about modern controllers being too expensive, I'd say it's to cut costs. When looking at the PS5's sticks and its low lifespan of not even a year, I'd even say they're low quality on purpose so you'll have to buy new controllers every now and then. But then again not even most third-party controllers have hall effect sensors, so maybe it's for a different reason entirely.
Amazing video on a topic that I knew was an issue, being a retro game collector I bought all my n64 items way before prices got crazy. But after all these years now its become a crisis for speed runners and its so interesting to see its been a wild and controversial roller coaster ride. Great documentary.
Great high quality video! Glad to have you back.
Lunarjump when no stick: Goddamn i fuckin hate everyone who has a steelstick, fucking practice nerds
Lunarjump when stick: My body is but a temple in which the nomad stick may deliver it's sermon, I no longer feel where my fingers end and the controller begins. After knowing this feeling the only thing certain in my life is that all else pales in comparison, friends, money, power, all lacking in the clean positional input and responsiveness of the stick, they are unworthy while I am whole
I have no hope that one of these people will sell a stick and actually circumvent the scalper issue
They’re selling them for so much they should be able to afford more people to work on it to meet demand
@@downwardtumble4451you know nothing about machining and manufacturing, clearly.
i love speedruns and never knew any of this besides the sticks existing. nice video
Someone with manufacturing and fabricating experience needs to tackle this. The problem seems to be that it is mainly gamers taking it on.
Still regret skipping myself on the wait-list and not getting my steel stick, felt like a ton of money at the time and I wasn't super active, but if only I knew.
Not having a good controller isn't the real reason I dipped out, but I do wonder if I had a good one if I would still be running.
Damn. I hope mine went to someone who truly needed it. Guilt set in after letting it sit in a box for over five years.
Sick video. Thanks for mentioning my project. I do plan on coming back and finishing it eventually.
Underrated bro subbed hope your channel grows
I repair these sticks. I've seen many a broken and worn down joystick on a N64 and I always open the entire joystick and rewind them back to their full capability, recalibrate, and rebuild.
wow, a time mage in the youtube comments
stop scalping good condition N64 controllers pls
@@SoyAntonioGamingNo, I will continue to scalp them and make a dime off of loser speedrunners. I have made legit thousands off of people like yourself LOL
@@SoyAntonioGaming if he says "worn down and broken" I don't think the controller is in good condition, at least not initially.
To no one's surprise, another banger. Great vid.
I just love the intensity and seriousness all these speedrun documentaries have.
The best "fix" I could come up for otherwise unusable controllers was to place a small semispherical washer under the sphere so the stick rests on the top crossarm and is centered by the spring. Works surprisingly well for what it is, but is really tough to get right and will never have that original tight feel.
Best solution I've seen is a standard 10kohm pot stick with a meticulously tuned curve. No idea why that's not standard by now tbh.
So what I'm seeing is that the community immediately dogpiled and destroyed any successful attempts before they had the time and resources to scale production, and then got even toxicer after the obvious and inevitable consequences of your actions hit?
I don't blame them, I would shut down production instead of encouraging the toxic behavior too.
For the record: 3d print the internal components that don't take the excessive force, and injection mold or machine the literal stick.
They just got scammed bro what u expect people to wait 6 years for 10 grams of metal?😂
@@pinicola89 I expect them to not immediately exceed the capacity of one guy to produce in his spare time as a side hustle.
were they expecting him to quit his job and/or stop sleeping and eating or something?
@@jypsridic isn't that on him for taking too many orders?
@@TwilightFlower9 When someone offers you a favor you're the asshole if you abuse the offer. We shouldn't ever view offering a service to your community as a mistake.
Either way though no one is ever going to do it again since they've seen what the response is. I don't have a horse in this race but it is blatantly obvious that the speedrunners shot themselves in the foot here.
great video i am an degenerate liam viewer but came from smash background and that in itself has its own controller rabbit hole too and got me used to fixing my own controller etc so when i started learning about sm64 running i knew about the problems but only heard of steelstick and how hard they are to get. ive bought a n64 locally and deep cleaned and refurbished that stick(to the best i could) with extra parts and grommits from other stuff and it made me understand how flawed it was because the second controller i got with the sale still felt really nice. also rocker gaming is a blessing to have in either controller community and although with the history shown i have good faith he might make something great for the future because he's made some very innovative things for gamecube controllers but only time will tell
as for my own theories on how the future of sticks will be i am not a 3d printed believer though, just not durable in thin shapes. ive wondered why people don't try resin but i know its not durable either long term. really crazy how there is no perfect mold
When doing maintenance on your stick, make sure that big spring is applying tension properly. I sometimes like to give it a little bit of a stretch. This spring is what gives the joystick a bit of bounce and keeps it centered. I usually find the control stick floppiness to be caused by problems with the spring.
Liams problem with prestige stick was that he thought there was a better option. So obviously the only solution is that it's the sticks fault.
A poor craftsman blames his tools.
Dwarven vow Number 55 "A bad workman Blames his tools."
I don’t care about either topic but I watched and shared this whole thing already. Excellent video!
Thank you chief!
Genuinely looking forward to watching your back catalogue over the coming days.
Awesome, although I think I upped the standard a lot with this one :p
I'm curious, being a controller wonk myself, would a Hal-effect sensor based solution be acceptable? They are supremely durable, giving that the stick and sensor make no physical contact.
Apparently Retro-Bit offers Hall Effect replacements that are Japanese made.
More of these videos man, underrated as anything!
are those open source 3d printer files bad, or is it just the printing material? cuz if it's just the material, there are metal based 3d printing methods
ITs more the Speed runners THe 3D prints can survive mario party 1.
Was wondering the same. We've got a Markforged Metal X printer at my workplace that can do stainless steel. CNC out of aluminum might work too
Dang. I knew people were down bad with N64 control sticks but I didn't know it was THIS bad. Would love to get my hands on a steel stick to preserve my controllers.
I used to think that old dying hardware meant that we'd be best off learning new controllers and finding new ways to do things to future-proof it, but now I absolutely think that.
If speedrunners just learned how to play on a PS5/XBOX 1 controller then any of these problems would just not exist. It'd be a different change but it's not about the controller that's the issue, it's the muscle memory associated with playing the game for 1k hours on that controller that's the problem, and buying a cheap available controller that is solidly built is easier than trying to invest in a company just to have a 20 year old super rare one come around that will die in a year.
The N64 games are much better played with the design of the original N64 controller that the games were intended for. Many of the top players started playing on emulators with playstation/xbox controllers, but they all switch to OG N64 controllers as they get to the higher levels of the game simply because those controllers are better for these particular games.
there aren't any notches in those dude, so you can't lock into true north, plus those sticks ARE poorly made. They are made just about as bad as the N64 sticks, similar lifespan. I'm convinced the stickdrift is intentional as it didn't exist 2 console generations back! The 3 big companies treat gamers like the addicts they are nowadays. Rock Candy 360 controller is better quality. They know people will reward their BS by purchasing a new controller so they can continue with their addiction. Even the Elite controllers suck and break one way or another, they just figured they'd take the same principle and apply it to someone willing to spend 130 bucks on a controller instead of 60. Brilliant marketing if you ask me. "Pay 2x more for this elite/pro controller so your sticks don't break like the stock controllers that the peasants use do!"
-Sticks break.
Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo all laugh in profit$.
Well if runners can't either cope or make new sticks, then we're gonna find out what its like for an enormous and influential speedrunning scene to die, which I'm not sure ever happened before and would certainly be an interesting learning experience.
Nobody ever considers this possibility, and probably for good reason because its almost impossible even with unobtainable controllers. Communities will either lower their standards for controllers, or fade into irrelevance and die - leaving only those in the former group alive to live on. That's basically natural selection.
This is ignoring that n64 games are optimial for the old hardware
bloody hell, just got to 6:50 and i thought i'd been watching for about 20 mins!! WOW!! Great stuff earned a sub, especially from your video about faking trickshots
As someone who's bought a lot of old guitar hero controllers in the hope of finding one that's actually good amongst the original Xbox 360 xplorer production run (by far the best ones), and gotten many semi-broken ones, I feel the pain here
The wiitars are better than xplorers since we have raphnet adapters and other independent adapters that support high polling rates and also the whammy on xplorers suck since they’re delayed compared to the gh5 tar
Seems like a problem waiting for an entrepreneur, not just a hobbyist with a garage and a lathe. Has no one thought to contract professional machinists to scale up production?
If you can charge upwards of $200 for something a professional machining shop can quickly produce on a lathe, there should be no shortage of shops eager to take on the easy paycheck.
Hell, I'm surprised so few "pro" speed runners have thought to commision a one off batch from their local machine shop, sure it might take a few tries, but a one time $500 to $2k investment beats buying over 300 controllers like that one guy in the video!
missed opportunity to call it "time is sticking"
Great video. 👍 A very niche product is always going to have issues with economically-viable production, because the work involved in the design, manufacture & calibration alone would be ridiculously expensive... what tends to happen is the maker doesn't factor in all the extraneous stuff you need to deal with (supply chain issues, manufacturing errors, dealing with customers, etc) and they run out of both money & motivation to finish the job.
Small businesses are damn hard work, and unfortunately a lot of your time & effort goes into stuff you can't recoup money on. But here's hoping someone has better luck with finding a solution this year.... the N64 speedrunning communities have a lot of momentum behind them now.
Optical discs are CDs, DVDs, and Blu Rays.
The N64 controller uses an optical sensor for the stick.
The optical disc is the actual way they're using an optical sensor. It's the correct terminology, it's the same disc that will come in your mouse most likely. There's an optical disc that has slots cut into it that the sensor shines through. It essentially counts the number and interval of the light beam being broken in your mouse and in the n64 it mostly just counts the number instead of speed.
The correct terminology would be optical encoder.
I got the term from the wikipedia page for the N64 controller. It says the controller is made with a pair of "optical encoding disks".
Bought a "GameCube Style" replacement stick for an N64 years ago off Amazon - it is incredible. Not for all games, super tight stick, but incredible for Smash 64
It's great but the sensitivity is way off
Surprising to see your channel just pop up out of the blue!
One idea: Instead of trying to make sticks and bowls of steel, so it gets much longer to wear out, what if someone develop a stick with the edge like a pen ball? if you have a ball, even if it's plastic, the friction becomes almost zero. If you make a steel stick with a steel ball on the edge, even if the bowl is plastic, it probably wont worn out, even with pressure applied.
Dang. I knew people were down bad with n64 controller sticks but I didn't know it was THIS bad.
I mean the Kitch Bennt parts are great I use them to fix all my controllers ? Even if they wear down fast why not continue using those ?
These parts are generally considered low quality for speedrun standards so speedrunners usually don’t use them. They’re probably fine for casual players, but just search “kitsch bent” in the SM64 speedrun discord and you will just find people talking shit about it :p
@@retro-meister huh Running the test programms made them seem pretty much spot on like original sticks but yeah I ain't no speedrunner
@@retro-meistertime for yet another speed running class.
@@retro-meister I have been able to improve the performace of these considerably and are very viable as a speedrun option.
You didn't even mention this option in your video, But you mention the other failed projects. Why Mention those but not this option?
That's wild, I never thought something like this would be a situation, but then again I wrongly assumed N64 sticks were like other sticks. That aside, it seems like a lot of these stick makers would have avoided drama etc, if... they had only set to sell a small fixed amount in certain intervals, rather than letting people flood en-mass (creating a massive back log.)
There is a black market for Nintendo 64 controllers specifically for the sticks.
hmmm... what if instead of making new sticks, we take the N64 classic controller and replace the potentiathingy with an opticalgician?
wake up bro retro uploaded
Wow, excellent video, thank you for documenting the whole situation so thoroughly.
I bought a few cheap replacement parts last year, but... I think I'm gonna hold off on even installing them. (I don't speed run, this is just for casual use. I have one pretty tight new-ish controller, and a buddy has one at my house that is lose but possibly still useable for some games. I was gonna try fixing his, but... now I'm thinking I'll probably just do more harm then good if I try anything... so I'll just use the grease I bought until someday I can buy a nice steel replacement or two.)
Amazing video , i think you could do this genre of video for most subjects.
Never thought this is such a huge problem o.o
Made my own stick a few years ago out of stainless steel because of the Ebay Lottery but i wasn´t aware that this is such a huge problem..
But why is nobody rebuilding the encoders? I made my entire module (excluding the housing) and never had problems whit it.
Even the Tester showed very good results.. Should i think about open Sourcing my design? (Serious Question)
That or find a machinist to make a large amount for you sell them. Be sure to give them a marketable name. You could have people ship in controllers then you upgrade them and ship them back, probably returning the parts you removed as well. I wouldn’t allow more than 5 of those requests at a time. Auctions would get you way more money. Open source could get you significant of fame. It doesn’t really matter which one but I am sure people are waiting for the “next best thing.”
If your files go anywhere good luck!
@@phoenixdonner8553 I made some adjustments to my files and tryed some thing but would need someone thats capable of speedrunning to chek it out if it fits well and works as intendet.
Fame isn´t what i am after because its nothing i need.
Better just have a good design and people like it instead of beeing fame.
I machine this parts myself so i can ensure the quality is up to my own standarts and would keep it that way.
@@PanicsX1 that’s great! I like your perspective, after all as long as your having fun and being constructive your spending your time well. I hope you find a contact. Finding someone physically close to you would be optimal.
What I understood from this video is that N64 speedrunners are the most unfunny and toxic motherfuckers ever
"Under this major threat of having to go outside" 🤣🤣🤣
the ad is popping at 6:45
and very interesting so far
perfect layout and rundown
kudos to you
think i gotta sub!