Second Age Begins! - Middle-Earth Lore DOCUMENTARY

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มิ.ย. 2024
  • Check out Elyse's Guide to Magic: www.kickstarter.com/projects/...
    Previously in our series on the world of Tolkien, the world of the Lord of the Rings, we have talked about the First and Third ages of the Middle-Earth, covering the entire of the Third Age and the war of the ring ( • War of the Ring - All ... ), the rise of Morgoth in the First Age ( • Rise of Morgoth - Midd... ) and his fall ( • Fall of Morgoth - Midd... ), as well as the economy and the societies of the Middle-Earth ( • Economy of Middle Eart... ). Our new season will describe the Second Age of the Tolkien's creation. In the first video, we will see how the humans, elves and dwarves tried to rebuilt in the aftermath of the War of the Wrath in the First Age and sinking of Beleriand.
    Our other series:
    Middle-Earth - • War of the Last Allian...
    Witcher - • First Nilfgaardian War...
    Game of Thrones - • Game of Thrones
    Warhammer Fantasy - • Battle of Astofen Brid...
    Warhammer 40k - • Warhammer 40k
    Star Wars - • Star Wars
    Fallout - • Fallout
    Wheel of Time - • Wheel of Time
    Elder Scrolls - • Elder Scrolls
    Conan - • Conan the Barbarian: S...
    Cosmere, Mistborn, Stormlight, Elantris, Warbreaker - • Cosmere, Mistborn, Sto...
    Dragon Age - • Dragon Age
    Alternative History - • Alternative History
    Final Fantasy XIV - • Final Fantasy XIV
    First Law - • First Law
    ✔ Patreon ► / wizardswarriors
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    Writer: Frank Ó'hÁinle
    Illustration and Animation: Arb Paninken
    Map: Adam Ellis Charters
    Narration: OfficiallyDevin ( / officiallydevin )
    Production Music courtesy of Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
    #Lore #Documentary #LordOfTheRings
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ความคิดเห็น • 154

  • @WizardsandWarriors
    @WizardsandWarriors  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +13

    Check out Elyse's Guide to Magic: www.kickstarter.com/projects/dracostudios/elyses-guide-to-magic-a-5e-supplement?ref=mvolry

    • @danielsantiagourtado3430
      @danielsantiagourtado3430 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Love your content! Continúe the mongol series🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

    • @debbielungsodaitfllo
      @debbielungsodaitfllo 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      When can you add the next episode of mongol Invasion of europe series???????

    • @mylesstephens7791
      @mylesstephens7791 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      There’s another post on here but I wanna echo it here. You guys should cover The Expanse series. It would be a really good series to cover given the “expansive” lore it covers

    • @nvmtt1403
      @nvmtt1403 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Hol up..... celeborn was still missing when sauron showed up, right? Or is the rings of power series not canon?

    • @NicholasIrvin
      @NicholasIrvin 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I got a question for you is it possible for you to do a video series about the timeline of Star Trek I'm curious to see it on your Channel

  • @visitingforgefather5997
    @visitingforgefather5997 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +16

    If i remember correctly the Broadbeams and Firebeards never merged with the House of Durin but simply became closer then other Houses were.
    While a great number left towards Khazad Dum, they never truely abandoned the Blue Mountains as pockets of them remained there as far as late in the Third Age.
    Also during the War of Dwarves and Orcs in the Third age it was said the seven Houses answered Thrains call to war, so they still existed as seperate houses.

  • @pastlife960
    @pastlife960 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +74

    The Expanse could be a cool franchise to cover, given its intense worldbuilding and geopolitical machinations.

    • @Literarydilettante
      @Literarydilettante 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yesssss!!!

    • @clamum9648
      @clamum9648 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Tight tight tight

    • @mopspear
      @mopspear 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      yeah I agree

  • @resileaf9501
    @resileaf9501 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    It's a bit heartbreaking that this wonderful peace will eventually be broken, but for the length of one video, I'll enjoy a Middle-Earth without war.

  • @myriadmediamusings
    @myriadmediamusings 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +62

    With your final FA vid on the War of Wrath, I was under the assumption that you were completely done with Tolkien. So i was surprised to see that you were gonna do SA too, especially given how your TA vids have already slightly covered it with the War of the Last Alliance.
    Eager to see the SA delved into more. SA I think doesnt really get a whole lot delved into given the epicness of the FA and familiarity of TA.

    • @mariuss1590
      @mariuss1590 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      I dont think they are done with Tolkien any time soon, there are a lot of topics yet to cover

    • @MeliorIlle
      @MeliorIlle 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      He didn't finish the FA though?

    • @Blisterdude123
      @Blisterdude123 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I think it's worth the doing just for people curious about it after how badly Rings of Power bungled the whole thing.

    • @thomasalvarez6456
      @thomasalvarez6456 หลายเดือนก่อน

      There were some inaccuracies in the last alliance video, so they’ll hopefully do a kind of remake.

  • @Matthew_080
    @Matthew_080 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    I'm very happy that you have started covering the second age. Thank you for your work❤

  • @lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615
    @lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    These stories need to be told. Thank you. Keep up the good work.

  • @desmondd1984
    @desmondd1984 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Great start to the Second Age series, looking forward to the next ones.

  • @Saltine76
    @Saltine76 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +270

    Awesome, I can't wait for the part when Galadriel kills an ice troll by herself in under ten seconds

    • @steffanyschwartz7801
      @steffanyschwartz7801 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +43

      Pain

    • @umadbroimatroll7918
      @umadbroimatroll7918 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +38

      🤣😭😞🙃😕 I think sums up the experience of everyone that watched that

    • @charleslarrivee2908
      @charleslarrivee2908 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +20

      You mean the part where Nerwen the Man-Maiden, "of Amazon disposition", needs a boost from her second-in-command before she can start working over the troll? Not to mention, he gets distracted for a second by the rest of her troops allowing for a follow-up attack by her.

    • @niklass.8699
      @niklass.8699 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +28

      I mean, it's not unreasonable for a noldorin noble to defeat an Ice Troll. It was still shit though

    • @Alexs.2599
      @Alexs.2599 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +13

      Oh God don't remind us lol.

  • @ahmedalausta1401
    @ahmedalausta1401 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    This was not expected, especially after the end of the first age series ... more please

  • @richardthomas9497
    @richardthomas9497 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Another pleasant surprise; to cover the events of the Second Age.
    I hope the next video covers the events of "Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife" which tells the tale of Aldarion's voyages, his troubled marriage and how the law was changed to allow women to inherit the sceptre.

  • @RataPelua88
    @RataPelua88 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Amazing! I was looking for this after finishing your series on the First Age. Cant wait for more, keep up the good work!

  • @DragoonMaster117
    @DragoonMaster117 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    the soundtrack to this episode was spectacular.

    • @DRKTROOPER15
      @DRKTROOPER15 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Mechanicus

    • @richardthomas9497
      @richardthomas9497 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@DRKTROOPER15I thought it sounded familiar from the Horus Heresy videos.

  • @carolbriscoe9337
    @carolbriscoe9337 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Thanks for this recounting of the Second Age of Middle Earth. Looking forward to your description of the fall of Numenor

  • @pastlife960
    @pastlife960 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    Awesome, you guys have really deepened my knowledge of Middle Earth! Could a Economy and Society of Numenor video be on the cards?

    • @michaelturner5050
      @michaelturner5050 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Yes

    • @Glorfindel_117
      @Glorfindel_117 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Economy would be impossible to do with anything Tolkien as he never wrote on the subject at all, basically. Aside from saying things like how Saruman secretly purchased pipeweed from the Shire. Society could be easier, but still would require a lot of stretching and assumptions.

    • @pastlife960
      @pastlife960 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Glorfindel_117 They’ve already done Economy and Society videos on the Hobbits, Dwarves and Orcs soooo…

    • @Glorfindel_117
      @Glorfindel_117 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@pastlife960 Hm I'll have to look those up. Interested to see what they make up, since we dont know hardly anything besides the fact that some of the peoples traded with eachother.

    • @thespyingeyeofmordor
      @thespyingeyeofmordor 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It's possible, since they had done the Arnor and Gondor portion.

  • @threemeters1425
    @threemeters1425 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +28

    Woah, I can’t believe Halbrand turned out to be Sauron in disguise! Tolkien is a genius!

    • @desmondd1984
      @desmondd1984 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      ha

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Actually, he turned out to be Annatar.🤣😂😆

    • @thespyingeyeofmordor
      @thespyingeyeofmordor 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I prefer Phobs' take on Sauron.

  • @sebastianahlin9677
    @sebastianahlin9677 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    8:40 “Times come for new dark lord and a new power is rising”

  • @hunterironside9969
    @hunterironside9969 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    better and better!

  • @thehellyousay
    @thehellyousay 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Usurpation? The cult Sauron started in Numenor was dedicated to Morgoth. He was literally trying, through the invasion of Aman by Ar-Pharazon's forces, to bring Morgoth back, or destroy the Numenoreans trying.

    • @marcbartuschka6372
      @marcbartuschka6372 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I think he was more after their destruction. I do not think he thought they could defeat the Noldor. Of course the Noldor were on a downward path longe before he ever made landfall on their isle. And while there might was a great enemy for his cause, it may be possible that their greed and arrogance on the other side surely did help him to rally people in Middle Earth under his banner.

  • @danielsantiagourtado3430
    @danielsantiagourtado3430 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Love your content! Please do a henry V survives series 😊😊😊😊

  • @Charlie.a
    @Charlie.a 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Awesome work thank you. Your work is beyond amazing.

  • @bjacr
    @bjacr 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I am very excited for these videos! Thank you for your hard work!

  • @MrMaddoks
    @MrMaddoks 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Another terrific video. Keep it up!

  • @jedimaster6673
    @jedimaster6673 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Excellent Entrance into the 2nd Age, keep it up!

  • @beaucurtis7524
    @beaucurtis7524 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    One thing I can't get over, is there is no coverage of the sinking of Beleriand. We're talking about something about half the size of the US sinking into the sea. The effects would be world wide and would take months to settle fully. That would be a 3 hour epic i'd sit through happily...

  • @robbabcock_
    @robbabcock_ 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Great video! Middle Earth has plenty of material to mine for many more programs.

  • @MuratKeremOzcan
    @MuratKeremOzcan 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Another amazing one, thank you!

  • @rcnyoplait
    @rcnyoplait 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video! Well explained

  • @Ryan-cz9wv
    @Ryan-cz9wv 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Need a Wizards and Warriors video on the Siege of Vraks.

  • @TheSpartanWin
    @TheSpartanWin 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Funny hearing the Mechanicus soundtrack backing LotR at the start

  • @kenguyii9108
    @kenguyii9108 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Much more interesting and cooler than the Rings of Power.

  • @angieh47
    @angieh47 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Yessssssss!!!!!! Second age here we come!!!!!!

  • @WhoIsCalli
    @WhoIsCalli 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Love you guys are jumping into the Second age!

  • @PenguinofD00mxxx
    @PenguinofD00mxxx 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Love this series

  • @sageofcaledor8188
    @sageofcaledor8188 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Excellent video! Sorry for the delay, but better late than never. And ah Numenor! The best kingdom of Men. Such beauty. Such grandeur. Suh dreams. Such perfection. Such tragedy.
    I have one question. I thought Celebrimor was the ruler of Eregion.
    I did not know the Numenorans were instructed by the herald of Manwe. That is cool.
    Also, I apologize if this is a breach of the rules. But if you are interested, I am doing a series of Numenoreans on my channel if you are interested.

  • @user-sd7ri9fy4i
    @user-sd7ri9fy4i 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Nice work dude thanks

  • @mansm7968
    @mansm7968 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Love your series

  • @collintrytsman3353
    @collintrytsman3353 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    excellent look forward to more

  • @00martoneniris86
    @00martoneniris86 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    What happened to the poeple of hallath or the halathdin
    Of the forest of brethil after the war of wrath

    • @richardthomas9497
      @richardthomas9497 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Apparently, some of the surviving Folk of Haleth and a few Drúedain did go the Númenor.

    • @00martoneniris86
      @00martoneniris86 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Dident then some stay in Eriador or mingle with the men of Eriador te dunlendings of enedwaith

  • @danielgreen2788
    @danielgreen2788 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Excelent. Thank you

  • @wedgeantillies66
    @wedgeantillies66 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    This is the calm before the storm as the free people’s rebuild and prosper after the end of the first age. While unknown to all, the greatest threat to all in the shape of Sauron begins to build himself up in the darkness of the shadows to assume the mantle of dark lord.

  • @davidp7178
    @davidp7178 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great Job.

  • @jonbaxter2254
    @jonbaxter2254 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Fascinating stuff.

  • @luisdoyer3260
    @luisdoyer3260 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What happened to your alternative history video series? I thought it was thoroughly entertaining, hope to see you continue the series.

  • @celtictemplar
    @celtictemplar 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Kristoff love your videos. And I kind of want to go back to when y'all were doing your fantasy what if scenarios. For example like what if the Western Roman empire or the city of Constantinople never fell, and what change would occur from that time

  • @Ammar-cs7dq
    @Ammar-cs7dq 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video man!
    can you published a high quality map for the second age. that will be awesome

  • @jommsnow
    @jommsnow 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Ah Numenor, finally something great for the Men of middle of earth. Feels like the Constantinople of LOTR, I really hope nothing bad happens to eat.

    • @niccologregorutti9309
      @niccologregorutti9309 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I mean, usually Minas Tirith Is the city associated with Constantinople, also because Tolkien wrote Gondor to have a lot of similarities with the Byzantine Empire

  • @medocekic382
    @medocekic382 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video
    Need a bit more back story to certain point for people to follow along

  • @denniscleary7580
    @denniscleary7580 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    This just made my holiday even better 👍

  • @mmezzanine
    @mmezzanine 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Sorry I just discovered this channel. Could I make a special request that you number the videos in their sequence. I just watched Fall of Melkor without seeing Rise of Melkor first.
    Amazing content.

    • @wolfmauler
      @wolfmauler 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      They're posted in chronological order and also arranged in playlists.

  • @hansfabri6906
    @hansfabri6906 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    EPIC!

  • @AlexC-ou4ju
    @AlexC-ou4ju 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    hello this is great butwhat happnned to the alternate history series?

  • @grzegorznowak1195
    @grzegorznowak1195 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I love it series 😊

  • @sourabhmayekar3354
    @sourabhmayekar3354 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Nice

  • @andreitrandafir2769
    @andreitrandafir2769 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Hy guyz, I want to start reading lotr books. Can u tell me the order of all pls? Ty

    • @richardthomas9497
      @richardthomas9497 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Well you could start with 'The Hobbit' and then 'Lord of the Rings' the second is difficult to read, but if you like the details you may enjoy it.
      'The Silmarillion' will be next, though some of the tales feel more like a summary rather than a narrative.
      'Unfinished Tales' contains extra information, extended narratives, histories and events that were happening round the time of Lord the Rings.

    • @andreitrandafir2769
      @andreitrandafir2769 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@richardthomas9497 tysm bro

  • @cryohellinc
    @cryohellinc 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Haha Mechanicus soundtrack in the beginning. Glory to Omnissiah

  • @napoleonibonaparte7198
    @napoleonibonaparte7198 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Numenorians remind me of the British greatly.

  • @itayshorek6872
    @itayshorek6872 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    yessssssssss
    more

  • @eonwe3559
    @eonwe3559 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Ost-in-Edhil was founded and ruled by Celebrimbor, not Galadriel and her husband Celeborn.

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      There are sooo many versions of this story it makes the mind spin.😵‍💫

  • @christopherg2347
    @christopherg2347 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    That Ixion Soundtrack at the beginning does not fit here.
    It is a perfect fit for Warhammer, but not for LotR.

  • @tylerboyce4081
    @tylerboyce4081 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    So I guess it's fair to assume by now that the alternative history series isn't coming back? 😢

    • @WizardsandWarriors
      @WizardsandWarriors  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      The script is ready, working on the video. Patience.

    • @steve8610
      @steve8610 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@WizardsandWarriors I heard that last bit in Alec Guiness's Obi-Wan voice lol

    • @saratmodugu2721
      @saratmodugu2721 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@steve8610that’s so weird, I did to😂

  • @theawesomeman9821
    @theawesomeman9821 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Will Amazon ever move forward with their adaption of Tolkien's world?

    • @WizardsandWarriors
      @WizardsandWarriors  6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      yes

    • @clamum9648
      @clamum9648 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Hopefully not, unless they fire almost everyone involved with that abortion of a first season.

    • @thespyingeyeofmordor
      @thespyingeyeofmordor 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      God help us.

    • @wolfmauler
      @wolfmauler 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      They didn't do an "adaption" of Tolkien's world. They made their own crappy, generic world that was meant to "reflect the world we live in..." and purchased Tolkien's name as a branding device. They failed on every level.

  • @Aleks_E96
    @Aleks_E96 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Where is the War of Wrath video?

  • @_-Wade-_
    @_-Wade-_ 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What a pleasant distraction!

  • @marciofelipejustino2563
    @marciofelipejustino2563 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Numenor o maior reino da história da terra-média na minha opinião

    • @ricardoandre7049
      @ricardoandre7049 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Para além dos reinos dos Noldor e Doriath na 1a era, isto é um facto. Gondor, que nós vemos na trilogia de Peter Jackson é apenas uma sombra do Reino de Elros

  • @nvmtt1403
    @nvmtt1403 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Hol up..... celeborn was still missing when sauron showed up, right? Or is the rings of power series not canon?

    • @niccologregorutti9309
      @niccologregorutti9309 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It Is not canon

    • @wolfmauler
      @wolfmauler 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      😅😂 I hope you're kidding

  • @MeliorIlle
    @MeliorIlle 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Why are you going into the second age when you haven't covered the last few battles and the sundering/sinking of the continent?

  • @peatmoss4946
    @peatmoss4946 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    ❤❤❤❤

  • @lostrangerjosh8680
    @lostrangerjosh8680 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Mechanicus!?

  • @honchothesage4707
    @honchothesage4707 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    This is great, would have prefered a good Amazon TV series about it tho smh

  • @pyeitme508
    @pyeitme508 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Wo

  • @minecraftfox4384
    @minecraftfox4384 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    2nd age is best age

  • @thespyingeyeofmordor
    @thespyingeyeofmordor 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Make sure the Numenorean armor isn't from RoP, that's truly disgusting.

    • @wolfmauler
      @wolfmauler 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      You plastic plate and scale printed cloth? 😆

  • @epicazeroth
    @epicazeroth 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    How many great kingdoms have come to ruin because they refuse to let the eldest daughter rule?

    • @carlosmarquez5901
      @carlosmarquez5901 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ask castile

    • @wolfmauler
      @wolfmauler 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Almost, but not total ruin in England: The civil war of Stephen vs Matilda 😳

  • @PhatCunt
    @PhatCunt 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    tbh morgoth was the least asshole of the valar. at least he didnt commit genocide just for fun

    • @marcbartuschka6372
      @marcbartuschka6372 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      You could argue about that since he was more or less after destruction just to piss off his "father" and sibblings.On the other hand I mus agree, the Valar (and Eru himself) are not much better than Morgoth and maybe even worse than Sauron in my eyes. I mean to drown a whole island because parts of its people riot against you (and by doing so also drown a lot of people on the mainland who had really nothing to do with the whole story)...if that are "the good guys" I do not know how they deserve to be called so.

  • @axbaron
    @axbaron 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Please God don’t use RoP as canon in these videos

    • @richardthomas9497
      @richardthomas9497 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Don't worry, W&W always sticks to the source material.

    • @clamum9648
      @clamum9648 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      THERE'S A TEMPEST IN ME

  • @WeserBlitzEU
    @WeserBlitzEU 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    First!

  • @clamum9648
    @clamum9648 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    It's such a shame that Rings of Power series is such utter feces. I'm not even a big Tolkien fan (have only seen the LOTR film trilogy and read a bit of Fellowship) but even I can see what a huge, rich history, characters, and stories there are in Tolkien's creation. But the talentless hacks pissed it away in their trashy series. Gotta push THE MESSAGE above all else though!