The practical answer to "Who owns the moon" is also a rather pessimistic one: Whoever is the first to set up colonies on the moon, and is able to defend them from other actors trying to stake their claim, owns the moon.
It's quite clear and definitive that the U.S began scaling back the space shuttle program in preparation to move IP into the private sector before anyone attempted to colonize the moon, and I believe that it's been avoided. Make no mistake that this is quite possibly the most important endeavor that has been occurring right before our eyes that is more important than any other issue including oil. It was masterfully executed.
Perhaps the Antarctic Treaty could be used as a guide. The Moon and The Antarctic have significant characteristics in common. It's hard to get to, it's inhospitable, it doesn't have any useful resources, yet. I actually think it will be possible to establish a self sustaining human society on the Moon. Interestingly the near side of the Moon is permanently visible to the Earth. The far side will need lunar satellites to be observed. The polar regions will be settled initially as temperatures there can be moderated more easily.
Have you seen the documentary "Dinosaur 13"? It tells the story of paleontologists who meticulously unearthed a complete T-Rex skeleton, only to have the FBI seize it days later. The government claimed ownership with little regard for the scientists' painstaking work. This story raises concerns about potential struggles over future discoveries, like those on the Moon. Words about collaboration might be important, but actions will speak louder. How can we ensure that the immense effort put into space exploration is protected?
37:04 the idea that somebody goes and blows up a base on the noon or an asteroid just because that somebody doesn’t want others to go there is very disturbing.
11:36 Interesting point about ownership as a concept Alex. The problem with your claim to owning the commet, is that my god, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, told me it's actually MINE! But seriously, it gives pause to the question of whether we can truly claim to OWN ANYTHING other than ourselves and our own lives.
I think the entire concept of land ownership has always stemmed from violence inherently. The earth itself has been here for literally billions of years, the land beneath our feet for hundreds of millions. Far far older than humanity. To think we can claim it as ours is hubris of the highest order, and has only ever served to empower the land "owners" with the ability to exploit those without land to "own".
@vinegar10able Sounds familiar. The one I like is, 'we don't own the planet, we're just borrowing it from our children.' I like it because if you don't have any children you don't have to give anything back. 😁
Well, I've often wondered why being born in SE England gives me the right to live here and own land here, except in the sense that I have, in some small way, through working here, contributed to making the UK what it is
😮There is this old joke from soviet era. -Rusians and Americans are racing to mark a new territory as man is about to claim this beloved celestial rock. Suddenly missions control gets a radio from mission Apollo: Mission control, mission controll! It's them they have landed, we can see them... Mission control: Roger Apollo, what is the status of Sovjets? Apollo: Omg mission control they are painting Moon in red .... :- stand by Apollo, Keep the low profile and let them finish... - mission control, they have done it. Moon is red , bloody red...... What shall we do . - mission control Now take the White paint an wrote Coca Cola 😂😂
This was great! Also, you gotta get Michael Knowles back on the pod at some point to discuss Catholicism (considering that’s what he really wanted to talk about on your last podcast)
Grayling has wonderful breadth of mind. A genuine philosopher. And Alex is such an intelligent interlocutor. This is a treat for the curious. However, not sure if China is biggest threat as he seems to imply and also the Ukraine/Russia/NATO example may lack some nuance
39:36 the idea that NATO is the reason the conflict is not spreading is based on? Doesn’t seem to me that there is any intention for the conflict to spread any further.
I like Alex's podcasts but I have a comment, is it just me or is it improper to call people like these with their first name without their title? I noticed Alex does this a lot with his guests referring to them by their first name without the title...
We can’t even get anyone out of low earth orbit right now, but we’re gonna have “moon bases” in the next few years? Sorry, but that’s kinda silly. I think it’s a question to be discussed, but let’s not get sensational about it.
@@sulljoh1Are you fighting with your neighbours guns blazing over your private property and theirs ? I'm confused when I read things like that because as a private entity I don't use weapons to acquire others property and I rarely see anyone doing so. Even between say amazon and google, I can't seem to find the trenches for their street fighting.
@@CuriousPhilosophy Actually it was common in the past that companies would actually literally have wars and assasinations done to advance their company interests. Although they usually outsourced the dirty work to mercenaries and mafia. Nowadays companies like amazon can just use their monopoly status and force any competition into bankruptcy, no need for killing.
On an astrophysics level I do wonder if we will see a similar crisis on the same planetary level as climate change with the transfer of raw mass from the moon and asteroid mining back to earth. By slowing increasing Earth's mass over centuries, will we shift its orbit around the sun? Will we lessen the Moon's mass to the point where it will leave our orbit faster than what is currently estimated? 🤔
32:00 - very easy to prove a billionaire never dug anything up, didn’t build anything, contributed nothing but the abstraction of money So no, not valid
Who Owns the Moon? Can you Read my Mind?!. Who Break the Law of God?!. Leviticus 5:17. Isaias 28:9?!. Hebreo 5:13. Hebreo 4:12. Psalms 144:9. When you tell me that you love me?!. Hebreo 10:31. Malachi 1:11.
I love Alex, but the questioning on this interview is some of the worst, if not the worst, I've seen from him. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this way, too?
I did see some other comments about it, but I dont understand why these aren't good questions. Its an under discussed topic, I can understand why he'd ask some semantic questions
States are just hanging back, as usual, waiting for the corporations to start heading out and discovering resources, before they start seriously talking about responses and regulations etc
If you ignore anyone that thinks Bexit was a bad idea, you end up with a pretty small group of headbangers to listen to. How do you think we ended up with the current Conservative Cabinet?
@@tcritt you clearly missed the temperament thing. There's thinking it's a bad idea (I voted remain) and being obsessed and shrill about it. Grayling is the latter.
interesting discussion. Much of this has been covered in SciFi in any number of decades. as well, there was no discussion around whether at some point those on the moon have the strategic "high ground" in terms of simply being able to throw rocks at the earth to enforce some of their demands. As well, why would different countries' moon bases not attack one another if there is a war on earth. I always do feel that there is a level of naivety in these geopolitical discussions. It is assumed that everyone is a rational actor but leaders are not. I recall many pundits saying that the war in the Ukraine woudl be over in months because the Oligarchs of Russia woudl force Putin to stop the war or that russia woudl lose money and international reputation, so Putin woudl change direction and stop the war. but that assumed rationality.
@@teemumiettinen7250 Don't worry, I was and still am well aware of that (and other projects alike it). Look up Ethics on Cosmic Scale for why this changes nothing. Space ports will be locked down soon enough.
As put, that is easily answered : The Victors (plural). Who are the likely to be the victors in taking possession of our local moon - apart from humanity, of course - that depends on variable (and largely temporary) factors (will, profit, technology, access, interest, and force). I'd plump for .. AI directed robotic mechanisms (and thus not so much one single communal, tribal, national, international, global or commercial effort*). Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o) * Who for instance 'owned' the whole world .. and eventually lost it (or lost control of that ownership): China, Persia, Macedonia, Rome, the Arabs, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the British, US American Capitalism, Soviet or Maoist Communism, Capitalistic Communism/ Communistic Capitalism, Hollywood, Google ....?
Earth in year 3000 will look like a gas planet with a ring around it after the Battle of the Sea of Tranquility, Moon. I’m headed back to the future, doc.
I'm not interested in giving government (the people's) research and development and all of its knowledge to private interests. People have to stop fighting and unite against greedy billionaires or they will have everything and they won't play fair
Who owns the sea bed would be a lot more immediate and a better topic. The moon is not going to be mined for at least 50 years if ever. This is almost a laughable conversation.
I like your podcast Alex but this has been done before. The first Despicable Me film addressed this question thoroughly
🤣🤣🤣
True, im sick of philosophers plagiarising the noble arts.
that's my great uncle!
true
😂😂😂
What a treat and a pleasure to see my former professor from Birkbeck College after so many years. Hello Anthony!
That must have been a great experience
@@sulljoh1 Indeed!
Grayling is always a joy to listen to. Very thoughtful conversation, well done Alex.
Finally we’re asking the real important questions
Who owns Palestine?
@@7pinky791 Who owns America, or the Atlantic ocean, or London?
Who owns my banana?
@@ZER0-- it sure seems like there's a particular group that owns all of them
Comments like this get likes from people who take it literally and take it as satire
My favourite contemporary philosopher!!!
The moonarchy.
Fascinating future-minded discussion thanks.
Moon scramble sounds delicious
His speeches (2007) along with Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are legendary.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Beast gave it to an orphanage already
I dont know why but "I really want to stay in your house" was playing in my head while listening to this.
Eddie Izzard, “do you have a flag?” springs to mind…
I love how he says “Well look, Alex…” It sounds like he’s his father
The practical answer to "Who owns the moon" is also a rather pessimistic one:
Whoever is the first to set up colonies on the moon, and is able to defend them from other actors trying to stake their claim, owns the moon.
This is the only true answer.
It's quite clear and definitive that the U.S began scaling back the space shuttle program in preparation to move IP into the private sector before anyone attempted to colonize the moon, and I believe that it's been avoided. Make no mistake that this is quite possibly the most important endeavor that has been occurring right before our eyes that is more important than any other issue including oil. It was masterfully executed.
DarkMatter 2525 sent me to your channel. Very high recommendation.
Fire vid.
4 wide
Me. I do. I own the moon.
Which one?
One guy literally tried this. He's selling plots to fools
Can I borrow it on Wednesday? I've got a date!
Can you move it to cover Uranus?
I waited so long ... and feared it never happens. But now it did happen.
Grayling has done some great stuff on Wittgenstein. Speaking of, Peter Hacker would be great for this podcast.
Kind of got me thinking of micro-nation, a movie named: "Rose Island" (2020)
I adore A.C Grayling's work. Thank you for this.🌛
Perhaps the Antarctic Treaty could be used as a guide. The Moon and The Antarctic have significant characteristics in common. It's hard to get to, it's inhospitable, it doesn't have any useful resources, yet. I actually think it will be possible to establish a self sustaining human society on the Moon. Interestingly the near side of the Moon is permanently visible to the Earth. The far side will need lunar satellites to be observed. The polar regions will be settled initially as temperatures there can be moderated more easily.
Alex, please interview Francesca Stavrakopoulou.
Ownership is three distinct things: moral, legal, and actual.
Have you seen the documentary "Dinosaur 13"? It tells the story of paleontologists who meticulously unearthed a complete T-Rex skeleton, only to have the FBI seize it days later. The government claimed ownership with little regard for the scientists' painstaking work. This story raises concerns about potential struggles over future discoveries, like those on the Moon. Words about collaboration might be important, but actions will speak louder. How can we ensure that the immense effort put into space exploration is protected?
Came from Darkmatter2525
Darkmatter2525 is one of the all-time greats. Dude is a genius and underappreciated.
37:04 the idea that somebody goes and blows up a base on the noon or an asteroid just because that somebody doesn’t want others to go there is very disturbing.
Ooo Grayling! Amazing! Love his work, especially on the Enlightenment and reason
11:36 Interesting point about ownership as a concept Alex. The problem with your claim to owning the commet, is that my god, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, told me it's actually MINE!
But seriously, it gives pause to the question of whether we can truly claim to OWN ANYTHING other than ourselves and our own lives.
I think the entire concept of land ownership has always stemmed from violence inherently. The earth itself has been here for literally billions of years, the land beneath our feet for hundreds of millions. Far far older than humanity. To think we can claim it as ours is hubris of the highest order, and has only ever served to empower the land "owners" with the ability to exploit those without land to "own".
Property is theft. Was it Proudhon that said that?
@vinegar10able Sounds familiar. The one I like is, 'we don't own the planet, we're just borrowing it from our children.' I like it because if you don't have any children you don't have to give anything back. 😁
Do you need some people to chip in for a mic stand Alex 😂
Interesting conversation 👍
37:13 torille
Maybe we should end profit motive and private property
Alex, have you watched the TV show called 'The Expanse'? Definitely hit on this issue at large.
Finished it very interesting
Same 56:45 best moments
If I go to Mars and bring back Pathfinder, can I keep it?
Thanks Alex for covering a variety of topics.
This vid seems to lack some of the gravity typical of Alex's other works.
📍36:54
This appears to be a discussion that could have referenced Heinlein's The moon is a harsh mistress and Netflix Spaceforce.
Well, I've often wondered why being born in SE England gives me the right to live here and own land here, except in the sense that I have, in some small way, through working here, contributed to making the UK what it is
“Who owns the moon?” A.C Grayling owned it the whole time.
When did Benjamin Franklin make a time machine?
I've been listening to your podcast as I work installing flooring in Canada and I just want to say keep up the great work you're awesome
😮There is this old joke from soviet era.
-Rusians and Americans are racing to mark a new territory as man is about to claim this beloved celestial rock.
Suddenly missions control gets a radio from mission Apollo:
Mission control, mission controll! It's them they have landed, we can see them...
Mission control:
Roger Apollo, what is the status of Sovjets?
Apollo:
Omg mission control they are painting Moon in red ....
:- stand by Apollo, Keep the low profile and let them finish...
- mission control, they have done it. Moon is red , bloody red...... What shall we do
.
- mission control
Now take the White paint an wrote Coca Cola 😂😂
why is this episode 63? where is 62?
This was great!
Also, you gotta get Michael Knowles back on the pod at some point to discuss Catholicism (considering that’s what he really wanted to talk about on your last podcast)
He’s an ideologue who claims to have seen an angel on the NYC subway. Not sure how to take him seriously.
@@jadonharper1493 Well fair enough - he’s relatively charming and an engaging speaker, and I enjoyed their last conversation.
5 seconds in…. so far so good 😏
Grayling has wonderful breadth of mind. A genuine philosopher. And Alex is such an intelligent interlocutor. This is a treat for the curious. However, not sure if China is biggest threat as he seems to imply and also the Ukraine/Russia/NATO example may lack some nuance
Aww gorgeous Alex
Ikr
@@bigol7169 He's super adorable.
🤨 what
12:00 america solved this problem.
If you develop a piece of land you own it. If someone tries to take it from you, you hurt them.
Darkmatter2525 gave the tip to your channel. Happy I found it
Sunny Day Real Estate
100 million fences around us. Can we own everything including the moon, the sun and the stars.
"You will own the moon and be happy"
A.C Grayling can't be an expert on the politics of space ownership if he hasn't watched The Expanse.
Someone owns the moon, and it isn’t anyone down here.
Answer : Whoever is the Strongest here on Earth (both Economically & Millitarily) and is the first to set up Bases on the Moon!
Who will own the moon? Whoever has physical de facto control over it. There, saved you an hour
Damnit Finland! Can't take you guys anywhere can we?!
Really? you got A.C. Grayling on the podcast and you talk about THE MOON?
Really? You're AC Grayling and you wrote a book about the MOON?
@@bobbabai I mean A.C. Grayling has written so much he can write whatever he want, still why would you want to talk with him only about this topic.
@@tzakman8697 I can only guess it's because he wants to promote his book.
39:36 the idea that NATO is the reason the conflict is not spreading is based on? Doesn’t seem to me that there is any intention for the conflict to spread any further.
I like Alex's podcasts but I have a comment, is it just me or is it improper to call people like these with their first name without their title? I noticed Alex does this a lot with his guests referring to them by their first name without the title...
We can’t even get anyone out of low earth orbit right now, but we’re gonna have “moon bases” in the next few years? Sorry, but that’s kinda silly.
I think it’s a question to be discussed, but let’s not get sensational about it.
I can not make the conection in WhatsApp..🤔😒
If we privatised the moon, then there would be less squabbling between governments over who owns it.
Then there'd just vbe private fighting
@@sulljoh1Are you fighting with your neighbours guns blazing over your private property and theirs ? I'm confused when I read things like that because as a private entity I don't use weapons to acquire others property and I rarely see anyone doing so. Even between say amazon and google, I can't seem to find the trenches for their street fighting.
@@CuriousPhilosophy Actually it was common in the past that companies would actually literally have wars and assasinations done to advance their company interests. Although they usually outsourced the dirty work to mercenaries and mafia.
Nowadays companies like amazon can just use their monopoly status and force any competition into bankruptcy, no need for killing.
On an astrophysics level I do wonder if we will see a similar crisis on the same planetary level as climate change with the transfer of raw mass from the moon and asteroid mining back to earth. By slowing increasing Earth's mass over centuries, will we shift its orbit around the sun? Will we lessen the Moon's mass to the point where it will leave our orbit faster than what is currently estimated? 🤔
Yeah we destined to screw up other Ecologies..
I hope we don't.
Living on a comment now that would be cool.
Gru
I wonder what Chrisjen Avasarala would have to say about all of this 🙂
Astronomy is the study of everything with the exception of one tiny blue dot
A military base on the moon would be nearly worthless.
32:00 - very easy to prove a billionaire never dug anything up, didn’t build anything, contributed nothing but the abstraction of money
So no, not valid
Who Owns the Moon? Can you Read my Mind?!. Who Break the Law of God?!. Leviticus 5:17. Isaias 28:9?!. Hebreo 5:13. Hebreo 4:12. Psalms 144:9. When you tell me that you love me?!. Hebreo 10:31. Malachi 1:11.
First one to plant their flag. That's THE RULE 😉 Easy for me to say because I'm a U.S. citizen 😆
Nah darling. It'll be the one who sets up bases there and one who's the strongest on Earth. Probably will be America still but not for long!
E. U. Quisling himself
Turd-for-brains Brexiter
You can have the moon, but I get to keep Mars, Jupiter, Saturn...
Please leave Uranus to me.😅
@@NissenovNot touching that!
I love Alex, but the questioning on this interview is some of the worst, if not the worst, I've seen from him. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this way, too?
I did see some other comments about it, but I dont understand why these aren't good questions. Its an under discussed topic, I can understand why he'd ask some semantic questions
me i will
States are just hanging back, as usual, waiting for the corporations to start heading out and discovering resources, before they start seriously talking about responses and regulations etc
Stopped taking this guy seriously given his complete and ongoing lack of temperament re Brexit.
If you ignore anyone that thinks Bexit was a bad idea, you end up with a pretty small group of headbangers to listen to. How do you think we ended up with the current Conservative Cabinet?
@@tcritt you clearly missed the temperament thing. There's thinking it's a bad idea (I voted remain) and being obsessed and shrill about it. Grayling is the latter.
👍🙂
interesting discussion. Much of this has been covered in SciFi in any number of decades. as well, there was no discussion around whether at some point those on the moon have the strategic "high ground" in terms of simply being able to throw rocks at the earth to enforce some of their demands. As well, why would different countries' moon bases not attack one another if there is a war on earth.
I always do feel that there is a level of naivety in these geopolitical discussions. It is assumed that everyone is a rational actor but leaders are not. I recall many pundits saying that the war in the Ukraine woudl be over in months because the Oligarchs of Russia woudl force Putin to stop the war or that russia woudl lose money and international reputation, so Putin woudl change direction and stop the war. but that assumed rationality.
No mention of the series 'For all man kind' ..Boo
I can safely assert that there will be no bases on the moon nor mars for at least the next 200 years.
Well you are certainly out of the loop. NASA is planning on having permanent lunar base with population in the next 20 years.
@@teemumiettinen7250 Don't worry, I was and still am well aware of that (and other projects alike it). Look up Ethics on Cosmic Scale for why this changes nothing. Space ports will be locked down soon enough.
Man, I read in 1986 that NASA had plans for a permanent lunar base by 2008!
@@PLASKETT7 were they building a rocket for it back then? Artemis program has already started and first launch was succesfull.
@@teemumiettinen7250 es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaskett_(cr%C3%A1ter)
As put, that is easily answered : The Victors (plural). Who are the likely to be the victors in taking possession of our local moon - apart from humanity, of course - that depends on variable (and largely temporary) factors (will, profit, technology, access, interest, and force). I'd plump for .. AI directed robotic mechanisms (and thus not so much one single communal, tribal, national, international, global or commercial effort*).
Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek.
God bless. ;o)
* Who for instance 'owned' the whole world .. and eventually lost it (or lost control of that ownership): China, Persia, Macedonia, Rome, the Arabs, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the British, US American Capitalism, Soviet or Maoist Communism, Capitalistic Communism/ Communistic Capitalism, Hollywood, Google ....?
Alex mistakenly assumes that anyone would willingly want to ever go to lithuania
Look, I’m just trying to cover rent here.
Earth in year 3000 will look like a gas planet with a ring around it after the Battle of the Sea of Tranquility, Moon. I’m headed back to the future, doc.
Just like a game of monopoly. Who can own the most and how much rent can they charge.
Some guy already sold it didn't he?
Interesting but you ran on way too long going in circles. I got the point in about 20 minutes just fine.
Me.
I'm not interested in giving government (the people's) research and development and all of its knowledge to private interests. People have to stop fighting and unite against greedy billionaires or they will have everything and they won't play fair
I own the Moon, seeing how I own _all_ of the green cheese!
I.
I will own it. And no one can stop me, muhahaha
what the hell are you wearing Alex?
The Principality of Zeon will own the Moon!
ME
The hubris of man.
Who owns the sea bed would be a lot more immediate and a better topic. The moon is not going to be mined for at least 50 years if ever. This is almost a laughable conversation.
It's no moon. It's a SPACE STATION!!
Someone needs a mic stand. Don't they ALEX