Finding out that this woman openly defends George Morris, a child s*xual predator, is the last nail in the coffin for me in terms of judging her. Defending people who are abusive simply because they were kind to you is a bad look and I think it also reflects poorly on all of the organizations who platform people who defend the trainers (like GM) they’ve banned for their conduct. It really isn’t a big ask morally for people to not openly defend a p*dophile and victim shame so that coupled w the clinic footage is more than enough to judge the quality of this persons morals IMO. Even if it was just a “bad day” in terms of how she spoke to students, a bad day doesn’t make you defend a predator.
I agree with you on most of these things. Going to a clinic should be a learning experience not a place where you are embarrassed or humiliated, much less having to be aware of the danger the clinician poses. I have been to clinics given by Olympic riders that have been wonderful and a grand experience. I have also been to clinics where I was torn to shreds. These clinics are usually very expensive and often require travel, stabling, hotel, etc. In my opinion, it is unconscionable for a clinician to be unkind to the riders. George Morris was always overly demanding and often had riders in tears. We all had him on a pedestal at first but no matter how brilliant a rider he was, he had no right to disrespect people. When the rumors started about his abuse of a sexual nature started at shows it was not really surprising. It certainly added to my dislike for him and answered some questions I had. I feel extremely sorry for those he took advantage of and sincerely hope they will be able to heal. All predatory people should be reported and if guilty, punished to the maximum allowed by law.
All I can say is wow!! Definitely struck a nerve to read that. I wish I had not read that comment but it definitely needed to be said. It just so happens to be a topic that has been on my mind most of the week. You handle all of this professionally and with grace. Glad I ran across you❤
"They need a good lickin" was so freaking 20th century its not funny, good lawd this woman needs some serious education and removal from equestrian rhetoric 😢
I grew up in this type of training back in the 80s and it made me hate riding by the time I was in my 20s. I stopped riding all together for a while until I had my daughter. She is now 16 and has the passion for it but I am very careful which trainer she goes to so she doesn’t have the same faith in burn out.
It's appalling that USEF posted this. We have better ways to train horses and riders. Animal behavior science has come so far. If zoo animals can be taught with positive reinforcement, of couse horses can be taught the same way. Not recognizing clear signs of distress is an utter failure. Competing with horses is not worth this abusive behavior to both students and horses. Thank you for posting this.
I had horses as a kid/teen and had to stop after HS, got back into it as an adult last year, and ended up quitting again because of this. Inbetween horse riding, I got into dog sports and learned a lot about positive reinforcement. Going back to the horse world after that, where physical punishments are the norm, was just too much for me.
@peep3616 I had a similar route, getting into animal behavior and learning positive reinforcement with dogs and cats. Then, I got back into the horse world and no longer have an interest in competing. The equestrian sport world is so reluctant to accept the science of horse behavior and R+.
I just wasted another hour of my life on required Safe Sport training for USEF…then they put up something like this where the trainer is bullying the kids, which is totally not allowed! Unfortunately there is no Safe Sport for the poor horses 🤬
She honestly sounds like she's full of herself. Berating the rider and encouraging the rider to run a horse into a wall or flip them over is so frustrating to hear. Sad because the riders can decide to leave but the horse has no choice in the matter. Thanks Shelby.
“Oh, YOURE doing it wrong, youre messing everything up, none of you can do it right. *I* know how to do it right. *I* can train the horses properly. All of you are just weak. *I* am strong”
I've trained complete beginners to competitors....and I don't ever think I have used shaming as a training tool. Humour....yep....but shaming.... that's disgusting. The trainer needs to get over herself as she is clearly talentless as a teacher!!!!
This trainer is not qualified to be training anything, horse or human. Sorry for my direct opinion but I'm not yelling it at her in front of others to hear. What really incites me is the lack of concern for the Grey horse. Watch when the horse is brought to a stop, his left hind ankle, it actually gives out on him. Wtf? And her derogatory remarks to her students are totally unacceptable. She is not fit for this type of job. I hope any of her students that are young enough to be living with their parents will show these comments to them, and they will do the right thing and get their kids away from this pretenders' talons.
Yeah, like I have a strict trainer but shaming has never been used. Nothing cruel has ever been used towards us or the horses as a training tool. In fact, praise from someone who is very strict is the best motivator to do good.
@@wintershock tbf ..training a horse is giving that horse the opportunity to do the right thing to get the best result. Training a rider (who then hopefully will become a trainer themselves) should be the same as for the horses training. Strict is one thing...I can respect strict but this trainer here...as everybody has picked up on...is a nasty bully to humans as well as horses. I am genuinely sorry you had terrible trainers too. Unfortunately they will continue to produce terrible future trainers.
Thank you for this, Shelby. I actually thought I was a terrible rider during all my years at different barns because I thought I was incapable of "dominating" a horse and "making a horse listen to me", all because of the way we are taught as riders by a lot (a LOT) of trainers. I have a total of 10+ years of experience as a rider, and out of the dozen or so teachers I have encountered, only 3 were actually educated both in horse behaviour and how to actually teach to both horse and rider. The rest spoke exactly like Katie Prudent does in this video. All "yank his face off" "he's making fun of you, make him respect you" and other "either do it or stop wasting my time". Yeah. Real helpful stuff /sarcasm I only started making giant bounds in my equitation when I finally met trainers who talked about horse behaviour and talked to me like an actual person. We need to do better as a sport if we want to move forward and I am grateful for people like you who speak up about the issues we face.
I had a trainer who would go back to basics if the entire group couldnt do something, like even the 1.20M jumpers. In this scenario he would put the poles back onto the ground. "No reason or excuse to ruin a good horse because of an unprepared rider" he used to say
It disgusts me that she is trying to mold these students' minds in her image: one of intolerance, negativity, and hate. Saying "animal rights activists" in a disparaging tone, to indicate her objection should be theirs as well, is attempted brainwashing. Also, her teaching "style" is one of punching down, vs. encouraging and lifting up. She's doing to the humans what she promotes they do to the horses. She's despicable.
Having two parents who are horse trainers that’s philosophy is #1 priority is horse welfare and #2 horse and rider basics and preparation, coming out of the bubble of our barn always blows my mind. We didn’t have packed competition schedules like some of these “competition barns” because it was productive to the learning environment. When we did go out all of the students had top scores most of the time. It’s crazy what building people up and having great foundations does. They always said the greatest compliment a trainer can receive is when they’re student surpasses trainer in skill.
I used to have a school instructor like this, who was also the barn owner. I walked out of several lessons because I refused to tolerate her nonsense on the days she was teaching and decided to come after me. My usual instructors were harsh and loud but I loved them and their words were always productive. Unlike the barn leader who would degrade all of us and say things like if we can’t handle a big girl horse we should all ride the barn pony. Well, it served her right then when a few years after I left that barn my family ended up needing to rescue a horse from that barn. One of our friends kept her horse there and he went blind so the barn owner said she could get rid of him or have him put down. Thing was this blind horse refused to go in a dark trailer and was understandably terrified. It took us hours to light up that trailer and finally coax him in (through some gentle and some more forceful means of having a group push him. We knew he was kind enough he wouldn’t kick and it was all hands on deck to save that sweet boy), and all the while the riders that still attended that barn got to watch as the owner continued to fume and rage that we should just put the horse down and stop making her barn look bad. I heard their lessons tanked for a bit after that, but even though they became popular again, I get my salvation through knowing that that horse was saved and he lived his retirement happy in a loving home. The sweetest and most trusting horse you’d ever find, and this lady wanted him put down for the sole reason that he couldn’t make her barn money anymore. In his prime he was one of the barn stars, and was featured on their website and in photoshoots. But he lost sight in one eye due to glaucoma and 50% sight in the other from another illness that I forgot the name of. Anyway. Sorry for rambling. But I wish people would get fired for behaving that way. Unfortunately the world doesn’t always care and we have to be strong in spite of it, for the ones who can’t quite be strong for themselves
notice how the grey horse would also jump completely out of his skin over these little jumps. i hope the grey rider finds some peace in knowing that she’s not dumb or stupid, and her horse isn’t bad, just in pain. im so grateful to have my trainer, she is so kind to her students and her animals and a few years back when i wanted to try out bitless riding, she was all for it! only thing she told me was to educate myself on it so i can ride with it properly.
From someone who has personally worked for her/her farm...yeah, this is a pretty honest representation of this woman. Obviously this is the worst of an hours-long clinic but I heard and received tons of this constantly when I worked for her for a season in Wellington... Any coach/trainer that recommends you beat your horse bc they need it (or really for any reason) is automatically trash in my eyes. Not to mention she's also defending George Morris while also shaming his female victims for pursuing him in the first place...so either she doesn't actually know why George was catching major heat (he was grooming/r@ping young BOYS mind you) and still backed him up or she for some reason still holds it against young girls to not be groomed by grown men even in the case of a man grooming/r@ping boys...some backward logic all around. Not to mention the welfare issues with any of those top trainers wherein their horses never socialize, MAYBE get an hour of turnout a day in a paddock smaller than my apartment, and quite literally are only viewed as tools to get fame/fortune/recognition...
Let's face it....there were some parents living vicariously through their children who just want to say their child is with a high profile trainer. Regardless of the cost
As usual, your analysis is spot-on. I grew up with trainers just like this. 'Get after him' 'Give him a swat' It was only later in life that I realized how bad this was for both horse and rider. Empathy, compassion and understanding are the only acceptable way to teach behaviours to our animal companions, be they horses, birds, dogs, etc. Equestrian culture needs to embrace change, move away from its harsh equipment and practices and grow up, realizing that the use of force and pain is something that desperately needs to be left in the past. I appreciate all you do for horse welfare.
I moved my horses out of a lovely facility when I found that the manager had similar ideology to the woman running the clinic. I don’t tolerate or condone punishment as training.
I really appreciate how you took a larger view of this poor excuse for teaching to the larger concern of normalizing cruelty and disrespect in the horse community and the fact that this will definitely turn the public off the equine industry. I appreciate that you emphasized not focusing on this individual but the fact that this is prevalent in the horse industry. Very well stated, Shelby.
Her lack of communication is... embarrassing. Telling someone to "ride effectively" essentially means 50 different things. If you want someone to ride more effectively, tell them how to execute that effectiveness! The horse was running through the exercise which could be "fixed" in so many different ways. The point of a clinic is education. It feels like a lot of whats going on here is just them jumping around and her screaming at them. I also want to mention I totally think part of that grey horse's tail wagging was the lack of communication from rider DUE TO Katie not communicating to her. He truly looks angry, and while I agree it is likely due to pain, I wouldn't be surprised it it was being amplified by confusion. All of the horses in this clinic looked... upset. One of the biggest comments that has confused me so deeply is that we should smack a horse as punishment. I use a crop, but I always use it as a leg extension. Does that mean if my horse won't move off of leg or I had a horse refuse I wouldn't use it? No. But in no world would I use my crop on a bucking or rearing horse. Why ask for the reaction to become more intensified? They do not understand the crop being a "punishment".. you are meant to use it directly behind your leg which to them means forwards or lateral. I want to mention I've had a old school trainer. Kids (including me at one point) were scared to lesson with her. Over time she has softened up a lot but I still see some of Katie in her. She yells... a lot... but if she wasn't satisfied with a course she would make me come talk to her so the next time we did it, it was better. She is super big on the correct usage of a crop and sometimes I really like getting a lesson in with her because she is real with me. I grew a lot of confidence with her, but that is only because she knew when to coddle and when to make me buckle up. I'm not seeing much of the first in these clips and it just feels like constant insult and poor communication. I'm getting sick of the "you people are softies" argument. I don't mind when a trainer is a yeller. But leaving lessons and clinics crying because of how mean the trainer was to you is wrong.
So as for the grey horse, apparently (as per comments on another post I saw) the grey horse apparently bucks, kicks and bolts when turned to the left. And would always attempt to turn to the left after jumps. Obviously a clear indication that something is very wrong. Along with the tail windmill. So Katie was trying to get the girl to basically beat the behaviour out of the horse. So yeah. The comments she makes seem even worse when you think of those aspects.
Other than the possibility of pain, couldn't the gray horse be expressing frustration at the constant conflicting aids from the rider, or even anxious tense energy of the rider herself? Watching her ride was super unfortunate because you could tell she was getting more and more frazzled by the constant berating, therefore could the horse be picking up on that and just getting more and more frustrated as well? Overall it was a situation that just got worse and worse as it went on and watching such a horrible trainer was painful. My old instructor completely took the joy and love out of riding for me because she was mean, flippant, and would constantly degrade my riding ability. I feel for these riders, I bet they were excited to qualify for such an influential clinic, only to get such a nightmare of a trainer.
You know what hurts the most to me? She reminds me of multiple instructors ive had over the years. And im no top tier jumper, but my horses are always tuned into me because of the good R+ has done for us!
i was told by a student whose trainer worked closely with george morris that katie wasnt allowed to school certain horses because she would school them into unsoundness because they were difficult
this poor grey horse :( these awful industry standards are why i retired my mare early who now enjoys brushing, play and outdoor life. she is now thriving!
Why didn’t USEF Clinic Committee do their homework? This approach to teaching and instruction is not new for this trainer. There are so many outstanding trainers out there!
I don’t understand how people don’t get this. You analysed this situation thoroughly and brilliantly, with simple language that can be understood by anyone. Just so wonderfully made Shelby, thank you for your commentary
I will stand by my statement that out of all the clinics or lessons I’ve ever taken I learned the least from George Morris. People yell at me but it’s true. All I remember is that he got on my six year old horse and smacked him over and over back and forth over a Liverpool he was already happy to jump. Just made him anxious when he wasn’t anxious to begin with.
I just started riding lessons as an adult because I love horses so much. My riding instructor puts horses first above all and how to read horses' behavior. One time we just did deep breathing exercises with my horse to help calm her. Instructors like the one you covered today are horrifying.
I'm trying to find an instructor in my area for me, a beginner adult. But am struggling to find one that treats horses with modern well researched methods, and isn't so competitive since I find that tends to lead to attracting snobby people and impatient goal-focused teachers
@@PredictableEnigma I got very lucky and stumbled across this place because I was at an event unrelated to horses (it's a small part of a greenway that offers so many other things). (Edit: i hope you are able to find a place to ride!)
I just saw my ex trainer in that woman, that gave me anxiety I FEEL THEM I KNOW HOW IT IS, trainers like her were the reason I quit the sport I loved dearly
I feel so much for those horses, but also for those poor riders. They need genuine coaching, someone willing to take the time to teach them, be kind and take them back to the basics so they can learn properly. I hope all those riders get proper guidance and don’t loose their passion for this sport.
Some of those riders are already winning competitive classes in wec and the hamptons. Everyone definitely went anxiety brain because how horrible katie was
I super appreciate your advocating and educating on actual behavior science! Punishment procedures are easy, and if that’s all someone can use they have a low skill level. It’s easy to hit and punish. It takes knowledge and humility to learn about the ins and outs of behavior and how to use R+ and other approaches.
One of the reasons I no longer "Compete" on the horse show circuit. It is really just for ego people, chasing ribbons at the expense of the horse, rider and bank account. The horses do not benefit. A lot of those riders do not even spend time with their own horses. Someone else cares for them. They get a leg up and then hand the horses off to a groom when done riding. Riders should not be talked to like that at any level. It does not help people learn. It is also a violation of safe sport because what happened put this clinician in a position of power to make the riders feel terrible and degrade them. It is emotional abuse.
I had a trainer exactly like this when I was first learning to ride. This video brought so many bad memories and anxiety. After an 8 year break I finally got back into it with a much nicer trainer but due to ongoing anxiety I can only do private lessons in fear of being judged so harshly.
seems like another case of the older generations being unwilling to learn and change their ways to be better to their animals and students "Im RiGhT, yOuR wRoNg, DeAl WiTh It" no carol, youre being proven wrong by science, maybe you should continue learning like the rest of us and be better.
yep, and blaming all of the “youngsters” for being “too sensitive” meanwhile, they are throwing toddler level temper tantrums when they’re told they’re being unnecessarily rude instead of changing their speech to be less rude 🙄
Please don't assume all of the " older generation " instructors are like this woman or unwilling to learn & change . There are good & bad trainers & instructors of all ages & at all levels , from local pros to international level .
It's always dangerous to group any age group into one.😉 I'm turning 70 in 2mo...and I've been fighting against this since I had horses at 16yo. My first horse had 7owners in his 6yrs. I had no internet, no videos, no person around me that even thought about feeling a horse's energy. Knowing by all his actions he had been manhandled, although he loved my farrier....I would have been crazy to think I'd win against a 1,000lb animal by brute force. Obviously, the other owners did not understand that.🙄 It did take 3yrs to get thru to him, that all people weren't bad, and he became the heart horse for a lovely girl. There have been many of us on the sidelines knowing these things were wrong, and walking in the dark to find better ways. And, there are some awesome old cowboys who knew decades ago there was a better way, but no internet to get that word out. Even today, the younger cowboys refuse to open their minds. Just after moving to NE Texas, almost 3yrs ago, with my wild-caught Mustang who was 15yo at the time...and I was working liberty with her in the roundpen. The young cowboy who I was told was sooo good, walks up and says, "Is that that stuff you talk about you do?" To say he was close-minded is an understatement. I heard he flipped over a 2yo.🤬 We all have a looong road ahead of us to break this kind of mentality. Thank God for the internet, because it's so much easier to call these asshats out...and try to change mindsets.
@@audreygregis8721 Well said ! Like you , I'm 70+ & decided decades ago (while starting my pro career at 20 ) after watching & listening to the "old timers " who were not open to changes or learning about better training , vetting , etc. that I would be a life long student . Fortunately , I had great mentors , vets , farriers , & even fellow trainers & competitors who helped me . I rode multiple disciplines & had great teachers & clinicians ( except one , but 'nuff said ) . Hopefully , I passed some of their knowledge on to the next generation . 🥰 Returning to riding , as a hobby , this year ! 💙
@@cynthiajohnston424 Good for you! We are never too old to do anything our heart desires.🥰 I just really dislike when someone bundles a whole age group into one, because that is never the case. There is always good and bad, no matter the age...and there always will be. I remember getting to see Walter Zettl, when he was touring with the Parelli's many many years ago...and he was adamant back then that dressage horses should be able to compete in a bitless bridle, if they can do the same as those who used those crazy bits. The problem with most things, there are few of us with a different mindset up against the rest with an "old, have to always do it this way" mindset...and the latter doesn't seem to want better for the horse.
there’s a difference between being direct and just being a bully. I would consider my trainer “direct”, and I don’t come out of lessons feeling berated like this and we are actually quite good friends. She even cares about my horse too! crazy stuff. Horrible on USEF for posting and defending it
You and Raleigh are the only activists I enjoy watching. Love the black and white. Love it being backed by facts, especially if sources are given. Educate the public 👏🏻👏🏻💕
How can you watch Raleigh? She’s this awful, childish mean girl who never got out of middle school drama. Please reconsider that one. She’s not in it to help. She’s in it to talk bad about people but wants to pretend she’s helping so she can still do it as an adult.
@@oldageisdumb I would describe her as "(probably) has her heart in the right place", but she goes about it in a way that I've grown out of. She can be snarky and a bit arrogant of herself, she's edgy and quirky in a way that isn't everybody's cup of tea. She's never done terrible things, she can just be kinda frustrating. I am still sad that she pretty much supported banning bully dogs, despite there being way better ways to deal with the bad owners- and bad breeders-problem, which won't put hundreds of already stigmatized dogs in kennels where they'll be put down eventually.
@@iclynnx I guess each to his/her own. I’ll admit that I never watched her as much as you, so you may know better, but from the little I did watch I didn’t get the impression her heart was in the right place. She completely came across as someone who just wanted to talk bad and make fun of other people. Literally middle school drama. I just can’t.
What I found through the years that a professional winning rider doesn’t mean they are going to be an excellent trainer and the same could be said about a trainer that was a lower level rider. It’s all knowledge both in riding and horse health, delivery, teaching methods and patience is what makes an excellent trainer is in my opinion
Also, the problem with these supposed metaphors / figures of speech, is that we don't really use that language with dog training, at least not in ways that don't alarm most others. We don't say "choke the dog" when talking about simply using the leash to pull the dog back or holding back a dog who pulls. We don't say "throw the dog off the table" when talking about a dog who jumps up on the dinner table. The dog can get hurt. You use a firm voice, show the dog the way down or carry it down. How is it then acceptable with horses, to speak like that? It's why I don't like using the term "kick" anymore for using leg cues. Some kids take it literally and kick their heels into the horse, me included, once I got frustrated enough that the pony wouldn't trot. I don't do that anymore. Also, when training or teaching, our language shouldn't be potentially confusing for some individuals. Maybe the student doesn't know it's not 100% serious, what then? How is the student then supposed to know what to actually do? Why not just factually explain what to actually do instead of using vague hints?
I absolutely hate the way some teachers say condescending and insulting things to students. I would cry at night being called a "weakling". I was already sad enough sometimes that I didn't know how to post in trot for a long time when everyone else (seemingly) could. A teacher should show, explain, and be supportive. Not tell you "don't do this, you pile of bones, do this! No I ain't gonna tell you throroughly how and why!" Edit: Oh, and just as horrible is the fact that people see others being hurt as just being "too soft". It's the kind of thinking that has me thinking certain thoughts about my mortality these days. I worry so much about being "too weak for life". I have been made to feel like I can't be strong in the ways that are necessary to exist in this world.
I had one instructor like this woman as a teenager, kind of felt like she taught me discipline at the time but the instructor I had after was a lot kinder and was a better teacher because of it. She still had the attitude that horses could “take the piss” but she was nowhere near as cruel.
I think I understand your concern. The world is scary for me as well. One thing that helps me is to work on taking care of myself the best way possible. I don't do this when I'm depressed or upset. sometimes I think my subconscious is punishing me at those times. So on a bad day, I force myself to do something to take of myself. Maybe I get food at the grocery. Maybe I let myself go to bed vs. me being awake all night. My four categories are: I strive to not let myself get to hungry, angry, lonely or tired. (HALT) Somehow when I work on selfcare, I am stronger for when the world is unkind. Keep your chiin up as much as you can because lots and lots of other people feel just like you do.
Apart from the glaringly obvious issues with how she thinks you should handle and train a horse, I can’t halo but feel bad for the riders. When I was younger I had coaches like this and I was told to do things to horses that would NEVER think to do outside the coaches presence. But as a teenager I was far too scared to advocate for my horse or myself, so I did end up whipping the horse to ‘punish’ them. I never did it as hard as they wanted (through if I didn’t do it hard enough they would make me halt so they could do it themselves, normally far harder than I could even physically do…) It keeps me up at night that I felt unable to stand up for my horse. I used to come out of lesson’s sobbing and begging my horse to forgive me. Luckily I only had this coach for a bit under 2 years before I could get out of the situation. I couldn’t leave because I only owned 50% of my horse at the time and she owned the rest with the agreement that I would stay at her property for lessons. The trainer’s treatment of the riders is just awful, it brings me back to those lessons and clinics where I would break down and shake with anxiety about everything. My riding would turn to shit under the pressure. Gosh I’m glad I’m an adult now, I’d never let my horses anywhere near this woman
I couldn’t help but think when she said she would make the horse flip over “fuck it, get on and do it then. Go on”😅 She has a lot to say when she’s not the one riding. Obviously you should never do that but I just don’t believe she could ride this horse better than his rider- the horse was so stressed, he wouldn’t be able to handle this woman, he’d be able to feel her anger This woman was at the top of the sport in the late 80’s - and early 90’s, you can tell she’s very rigid in her thinking, this way of coaching and thoughts about how horses behave are like a time machine back to a competition stables in the 80’s. I’ve never been a fan of her riding but I don’t remember from the top of my head seeing her do anything like what we are hearing at this clinic, apart from some liberal whip use (then again most back then relied on the whip). It just goes to show you don’t know how they really are when they are at home without the cameras
@@melk3498 I audited a clinic she gave in the 70s or 80s and she was awful then, too. Full of herself. She "demonstrated" on a friend's horse, and was so busy bragging/not paying attention that he refused and she went over his head.
@@lesliemoiseauthor I’m not surprised, I’ve never been a fan of how she rides… never seemed quite as stable over the fences as I would expect. She’s always had this way of speaking to young riders. 😬 One of the riders at the barn I was at when I was a stable hand in the states did a clinic with her in the late 90’s and came out crying. She’s not the only coach from this time like this…
I was shocked. Granted when I started riding 40yrs ago flipping horses was unheard of and that type of "training" was accepted. I honestly cannot believe someone pays her. A rider is not going to learn bc she is not training. All I have heard is criticism but not teaching them. I am typing as my thoughts are coming out of your mouth. I loved that you brought up George 😂 Her hostility is going to make the riders tense and upset. The horses feel that. At this point, nobody is learning anything. I think she needs to retire. You are 100% right. OMG! You are saying everything I was planning on saying. I learned the same way but I have learned better ways. Horsemanship is a lifelong education. You did a WONDERFUL JOB articulating this response. Kudos to you.
This is actually what we have been dealing with for so long. It’s very frustrating and difficult to find a trainer who is willing to put the welfare of the horse first. Our mare developed ulcers and was refusing to trailer load because of us allowing harmful training “techniques “ to continue.
Her behavior was unacceptable but so was the riders. These are the top junior riders in the country and they were lacking basic horsemanship. Most of them couldn’t halt after a line or adjust the horses stride. These are made Hunter horses programmed to jump a course with there riders who I guarantee couldn’t even tack their horse properly a groom probably did it for them. This is what happens when you let people pay there way to the of a sport instead of learning the skills.
Oh for sure, but as the trainer its her job to change the exercises to be within their skill level and make it a learning experience for where their weaknesses are instead of verbally berating them and doing none of that.
@@Milestone-Equestrian I think some of the blame should fall on their home trainers as well you shouldn’t be jumping at all if your horsemanship and Flat work isn’t up to par. Most of the riders probably shouldn’t have even come to the clinic. Not that that excuses her behavior at all but I think everyone should be held accountable for the lack of horsemanship at this year’s Horsemaster Clinic.
Thanks Shelby if (possibly) young riders are taught with degrading and sarcastic speech, how does that in any way encourage a learning process? They are taught no empathy with another sentient being, as they didn’t experience it themselves. And that’s how a choleric screaming teacher made me hate school from second grade on. And it wasn’t only once, but always.
This is why there are sooooo many kids who are all stuck up snobs that do not know or understand anything about horses..... these are the coaches that create those stuck up dumb horseshow kids who only care about their status....how expensive there clothes and saddle is more important than anything
I access pony club coaches for their accreditation… she would not have passed. Funnily enough, she would have failed long before she was belittling riders, the jump grids were not constructed to safety standards, she lefts cups on wings with no pole seated. She did not build with adequate exit space. The distances particularly with the ground poles did not look nor ride correct. Even if I’d placed her lesson on mute, the way the riders were “unable to complete” the exercises at a lower height, and yet she cranked the height up anyway……. If I had been asked to assess what coach, I’d probably be steering the conversation towards alternative career paths. Too much arrogance and too much to improve to ever hope for qualification…… so why does USEF(uck all sense) accept this!?
Well said you... The response was necessary with the outrage. It's shallow and doubt it will reduce her clinic participation. I saw some junior riders expecting horses to compensate. This is also how very good horses end up at an auction and eventually that doesn't work out. Three Bill's going to Congress will help welfare and stop slaughter if voter's contact representative expressing support. Stay warm ❤
A good teacher doesn't say, "Do xyz," to a young student. A good teacher explains how to achieve xyz. It was so painful to see so many stressed horses in this video. All of them were catch rides; new to the riders. A bad teacher in every way. Is there any way for me to pm you?
I say this with the utmost respect to you but it sounds like you wouldn't have been there in the first place. The vast majority of these riders at this level, at clinics or otherwise, have drank the Koolaid a bit too much and fast to quit now. They no longer see this as an issue, do not see their horses as anything more than tools, and would just stick it out bc she's a big wig in the industry. Is that right? Absolutely not! Is it what I saw working in Wellington with Katie herself? Yep...
They can’t do that or they’d get bullied out of the industry and lose opportunities. Tbh, a lot of these people are trapped by circumstance because their entire identity is probably tied to how they are perceived in the horse world and most of those closest to them would shame them for taking a stand like that.
Being wealthy and losing opportunities - not really a nice place to be if you can't stick up for what you feel is right. I would have answered back and been thrown out.
@@rottsandspots It’s easy for us to say this when we’re not immersed in that culture, though. Yes, they’re wealthy and privileged by they’re still people and in order to actually properly address the issue we do need to understand why it would be hard for them to take a stand and speak up. They’re all very young, too.
Carlee was definitely not unprepared or not up to par on her flatwork. She has a Grand Prix record and just won the Maclay finals. She was probably having whatever issue with that horse being nervous or uncomfortable and katie exacerbated it with her shitty teaching.
Outside of some of the disturbing comments in the video (I really hope these were just a bunch of flaky comments with no meaning behind it), I think there has to be some deeper-seeded issues in individuals to not only treat and teach children to treat animals this way but to be so triggered by a more empathic approach actually being somewhat scientific. I'm convinced some of these types are aware of the studies coming out supporting employment of softer alternatives forms of behavior modification and they think intimidation and contempt will deter their students from looking into it. Completely irresponsible especially since this information could save a life.
I have encountered a couple instructors who are abusive to the students and the horses. It is never helps either horse or rider improve. I have known a couple of trainers who really helped me and my horse. Choose wisely.
No one should be giving orders to you an your horse like that or even anything close. I feel sorry for these people and their horses that fall into a lot of bad advice. I did too and I still get it sometimes but now I can acknowledge it.
@@shannonomeara243you defend pedophilia, so nah, you should leave. Thanks for defending my post and commenting in defence of a child predator with a handle that has your first and last name, though! Easy to identify and avoid you because people who defend abusers are just like them ❤
People are constantly saying that whips are an extension of the arm, they should never be used as punishment, they're completely fine. And yet we have a top rider and USEF saying that it's used for discipline and is perfectly fine to hit them when they makes mistakes.
I totally agree that Katie is a throwback to days we can LEAVE IN THE PAST! Sheesh!!! What a way to show your true colors and what a let down when so many people came to GM’s defense. To have the curtain pulled back on so many people you looked up to as a kid is a special kind of Wtaf?! ANYhoo! Onward and upward! I saw someone mention the grey’s tail wringing as frustration with the rider. I also saw someone mention ulcers. GREAT POINTS! To me, I see the perfect storm of all of these causes. As I don’t know the girl and horse involved, I’m going to say “probably” a lot in my loooong comment. I’m mainly speaking in general terms as my frustration comes from what the show world has become in general. To me, this particular horse and rider are merely one example of the thousands who have been treated the same way. FIRST- I DO NOT blame the kid riding the grey for what a humiliating disaster this has turned out to be for her, because this isn’t going away anytime soon. I blame her trainer and parents. The fact that she’s at a clinic with Katie Prudent in the first place means she’s wealthy. The fact that she’s there on a junior jumper that’s tuned WAY PAST her abilities, at a clinic that has expectations that she’s struggling with? That’s on the people recommending the horse and clinic to her in the first place. Shes probably been fast tracked through the pony and junior ranks on mounts that require little more than steering. Shame on everyone involved for first robbing this kid of learning how to ride, much less putting her in this position of being publicly, and eternally, cuz internet!, humiliated. This is squarely on their shoulders. This horse was probably shown by a more advanced rider that clicked with the horse and was able to get the best from it. They probably made it look easy. The kid from the clinic probably tried the horse while it was still in the mindset established by the better rider, so big problems didn’t crop up immediately. This is where the clinic has come in. BLESS BOTH THEIR HEARTS! 🥺😢 The horse’s tail wringing and habitual turning to the left, while hating turning to the left? It could be due to ulcers on the right that happen to hurt worse than ulcers on the left, but there’s still pain associated on BOTH sides. The horse may not have even had ulcers before now or they got worse, hence the turning issues showing up “out of the blue”. The kid looks like she’s stressed and probably afraid of the horse. She probably DOES hear what Katie’s asking her to do but is more afraid of the fight the horse will give her if she asks it to do what it doesn’t want to do. The kid knows she’s going to be told to beat or bully the horse through it, which has most likely ended in the obvious disaster it should. This is exactly how “bad habits” become ingrained in horses who eventually become “problem horses with bad attitudes”. Well NO SHIT! When you ignore body language or explore health reasons, then chalk it up to bad attitude if no health reasons are found, instead of owning up to poor training OF THE RIDER or BAD PURCHASING ADVICE FROM AN AGENT WITH DOLLAR SIGNS IN THEIR SIGHTS, what exactly do you expect?! This is EXACTLY what happens when parents with more money than sense get caught up in ribbons equaling clout. OR when spoiled kids mistake money and ribbons as self-worth. This poor horse. It makes me sad that we have little resolution to the problem as it’s not even seen as such, by so many that keep the cycle going.
A lot of people are focusing on the clinician rightly so, but can you imagine being one of these young riders who are now forever immortalized by this viral video? They probably felt powerless to speak up as to how she was speaking to them, while realizing that the ask was over their abilities. Hopefully they (and their parents) can move to learn from a qualified, more caring instructor how to fill in the riding blanks, and carry on to greater things!
I guess I've been lucky over the years, to only encounter ONE instructor with the attitudes of Katie Prudent. That one instructor held the view that horses were incapable of emotion or even real thought and had to be dominated. I lasted two lessons and quit. Even clinics with Olympians - I've done 3 - I never encountered this attitude (I should mention I'm in Canada, although I doubt that makes much difference) to either horse or rider, so for me this is shocking. I had one instructor who could be a bit nasty if you did something, however inadvertently, he felt could hurt the horse! With the exception of that one instructor I mentioned earlier, every single one has emphasized that the crop is for reinforcing a leg aid, and never for abusing your horse. In my early years of riding, there were rumours abounding about a nearby stable where seriously questionable treatment/training of the horses was going on. That was one stable in an area where riding schools and boarding stables were almost as common as flies!
Yesss Shelby you hit the nail on the head. I was just having this debate with someone. When you’re in a position of power, you have an underlying responsibility to say things that you mean, not flippant remarks about beating your horses/flipping them over/crashing them into fences. I’m not as mad that training like this exists, but that it was broadcast and sponsored by USEF
I'm surprised you've not commented on the recent FEI dressage World Cup. Lottie Fry and Everdale won but god their routine was painful to watch. Everdale was behind the vertical pretty much the whole time, I'd probably score him a 10 out of 12 on the grimace pain scale but I'm no professional. His legs were disengaged and judge bias was horribly obvious. The poor thing's tongue was blue. The FEI rules specifically state that a score cannot be higher than 5 if the tongue is seen hanging out to the side - what did Lottie Fry score? 8.4. Ridiculous.
@@Milestone-Equestrian Absolutely! I'll send you a couple since there's a few different angles on the routine (as well as a clip pointing out the blue tongue, since it's a bit of a 'blink and you'll miss it' moment if you don't know where to look for it). The video from the audience member shows the pain face incredibly clearly. Video from FEI: th-cam.com/video/NfTZu1Vo77g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=saAEY30iNlw1_Gs0 Video from audience member: th-cam.com/video/et8SwVGcEbc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_snf09luc7sais8B Video from DressageHub pointing out the blue tongue: th-cam.com/video/pTXBv2J_ET4/w-d-xo.html
Have you seen one of Lottie Fry's routines with Glamourdale where he had a 3 beat trot? I don't remember what event it was at but I can attempt to find the video. You can probably notice it in other tests she's done with Glamourdale too
Oh yes, I remember receiving this kind of training in the early 90's. I bought a mare that didn't trust me and she would chase me out of her stall. My trainer told me I needed to go in her stall and beat the crap out of her. I was 14 at the time and I did not do it. I did however ride far too aggressively and I regret it to this day. It's how I was taught. As soon as I grew up and realized there were much better ways, I trained my 2 year old gelding so very differently. There's no excuse for this in this day and age. NONE.🙄
I rode at Plain Bay Farm as a junior, and Katie is beyond rough and in my opinion, abusive. I left as soon as I realized what they considered acceptable treatment of horses. Make no mistake- everyone around her; Henri, Adam, her former student Reid Kessler ( and her parents Murray and Terri) all follow her lead. This was not a one off.
I’m guilty of tagging you in this. To balance the negatives with a positive I’ll send you 2 amazing resources and examples of good horsemen in sport Tamarack hill farm Hyde moffat
Hey shelby, i agree totally on everything. I do have a question though. My sister has been training a pony for a while now. She doesn't use whips or spurs and is very gentle with the aids however her pony seems to do a single tail swish almost every upward transition. She doesnt swish a lot, only once every time and she doesnt seem in pain. I was wondering if there was another reason some horse swish occasionally. It is never a windmill tail just an occasional swish. Any suggestions on what it may be?
I once had a pony who did the same. At fist we thought it might be the saddle and getting him a custom made saddle seemed to fix the issue for a while. Then he started doing it again, and we found out he had a lot of scar tissue from his castration that needed surgical removal and was causing him a lot of pain - it was also what had made his back sore in the first place, because he wasn't moving correclty. After surgery the tail swishing went away for a few months again until he once again started showing signs that he was unfomfortable transitioning between gaits. We decided to get x-rays of his back and was very surpriset to find out that he (at the age of 12) had developed quite severe arthritis in most of his lumbar and sacral vertabrae. The vets said it was probably die to him being ridden too young (before we got him) and because he had been moving incorrectly due to the scar tissue. All this to say: Please get your horse checked by a vet, and by multiple specialists if "nothing is wrong". Even with arthritis in half his back, and scartussues making it painful for every step he took, my horse only showed a bit of tailswishing and no other signs of pain. The swishing could be something simple but it can also be a sign of very severe problems.
Ive been told i was too soft every time ive ever ridden around other people. Ive been talked down to for trying to learn positive reinforcement, and it basically drove me to leave the hobby completely.
wow. To say you’d PURPOSEFULLY flip a horse over on you takes a special kind of stupid. Seems like Katie has done that one too many times, eh? It’s ironic that she’s calling someone ELSE weak in the brain… 🤨 Seeing old Katie here, proudly displaying her outdated methods of molding the next generations of horses and riders, I also started down memory lane of my showing days as a kid in Charlotte NC. We showed in NC, SC, Virginia, Atlanta and Nashville, TN. I’m 54, so I got to see several of Katie’s peers when they’d bring younger horses to the bigger A shows for the jumper classes. I’m talking the days when Tryon had one hedge fenced ring, an outside course and was eventually working on a new ring before I stopped showing. I remember all the juniors at my barn packed up and went to the very first Charlotte Gran Prix. I used to have a big thick show program signed by all the riders that I treasured as much as my boxes and boxes of CoTH. In fact, I STILL have a well worn copy of “A Very Young Rider” sitting on my shelf! When it was gifted to me, it was the fresh of the press! Anyone who’s read it likely remembers George Morris and other famous riders from the ‘70’s, being referenced in it. It also includes a page about his assistant trainer at the time. That assistant trainer was one of the men who later exposed GM as a groomer and pedo! It’s mind boggling to go back and read those parts, knowing the abuse those “featured” riders and trainers were most likely inflicting on the horses and people around them. I wonder if the pics of those riders schooling their jumpers have canes lying about and I just never noticed them because my eye and mind wouldn’t see them as out of the ordinary? What other “training aides” did I miss? Us “lower level” rider were groomed to see those as simply part of the training required to achieve fame and ability to ride at the Olympic and elite level. Granted, they were whispered about but never spoken about out loud. Seriously?! Wth?! Most of these trainers and riders were known to school their horses in areas “behind the barns”, removed from the usual schooling areas and usually far from prying eyes. It was said they needed the separate area and odd times in order to avoid the insanity that can be riding among juniors and amateurs. Their horses were investment horses that were being trained to win $100,000 grand prix’s, so fair enough. Tiny schooling areas can be a shite show of a circus. WHO could blame them, right? Riiiiiiiight… It was an open secret that they were also doing abusive things like temporarily hot wiring the fences or caning their jumpers so they’d be more careful. I remember seeing both of these happening in the more remote schooling areas, later in the day, after most people had packed up or headed to the hotel for a break before the jumpers went under the lights. Remember, this was long before the days of multiple show rings. A big show grounds that was local to us, Mecklenburg Hounds, had 2 rings and an outside course that was only used once in the 3 years I regularly showed there. Short stirrup and pony kids were early a.m. classes in the smaller ring. The fence height dictated the order of classes. The big, lower ring was for 3’3” and above, which usually started with juniors, a little later in the morning. Gran prixs were night big Saturday night classes. This left us younger riders a looooot of time to wander, watch and learn, perpetuating the cycle of abuse. As an adult, looking back now, it’s horrifying to think about. It’s no wonder we’ve come to a place where abuse is no longer relegated to the back corners and has escalated to the state it’s become. As you become numb to the seemingly small things, eventually, they ALL become small things!
Whether you are a teacher in a school setting, or teaching riding, it is well known that shaming or condescending remarks are the worst way to teach anyone anything. I can guarantee that anyone on this thread, just like I can, even at almost 70yo, will remember when someone embarrassed them, like this lady is doing. I remember when I heard Linda Tellington-Jones say how she always regretted what she did to horses before she knew better. And that is totally me, before I learned about natural horsemanship almost 20yrs ago. Although my very first horse at 17yo, who had 7 owners in his 6yrs, taught me patience can always turn a horse around...to undo what some asshat has done. Horses are never born to act out wrongly, rather act out to wrong, harsh training methods. This lady is everything many of us have been fighting to eradicate for decades. I would hope it becomes more mainstream to create a partnership with a horse, but I honestly won't hold my breath. This mindset is so in-grained that horses are just tools, it will take decades more to rid our world of it. Thank you for calling her out...from one of your newest subscribers.💕
Answer to it all is hands. A horse needs a lot of rein to jump properly. Inexperienced jump riders tend also to hit them in the mouth as the horse lands, so the horse puts on some resistance, such as running out like the grey, or simply refusing to make any attempt to jump.
Agree with you. I had watched some clips on FB & my first impression was that the two teachers were giggly, flippant and condescending. Just curious, who were the students in the class & how chosen? As a young teen I remember watching Katie ride at a show & admiring her. Back then, I did have instructors like her...
That is absolutely the culture I experienced when I was in the horse world.. And that was exactly the culture that eventually drove me away from it. I miss being around horses, but I refuse to be subjected to verbal abuse.
The people taking these classes are the ones responsible for what’s happening. They need to grab some balls and say this is not acceptable behaviour for a trainer and I will not pay for this unacceptable conduct and abuse of horse and rider.
It's hard to imagine people paying money to not only have their horses judged horribly but also themselves. Stop paying money for people to abuse you and animals in your care.
Unfortunately this attitude is so normalized that people don’t even view this as abusive speech and it’s viewed instead as “tough love” and directness. Not being on board with it is viewed then as over sensitivity. It’s very entrenched.
That why it's important for the riders and consumers of equestrian sports to say something and demand change. If change doesn't happen stop using these entities be they a company or a person. Yes it sucks when you can't compete with your peers but you are otherwise saying I don't like it but I can live with it.
Maybe because my daughter trained with trainers I vetted and made sure I refused to accept any toxicity. She ended up in the top doing ponies and moving onto horses. Its a decision of responsibility. Just like gymnasts.....parents thirsty for success makes for stupid decisions........
I didn’t read all the comments, but… First, if I was teaching a group that I thought overall wasn’t getting it, then try to pinpoint the holes and take the students back to that. The idea is to teach what you see, otherwise you’ll be creating more holes in the horse or rider’s training. Second, the student who was riding a horse like the grey, I would stop and ask some questions. Is the horse normally like this, or is this unusual on this day? If it is usual, first try to decide if it is the environment, or pain is involved. If not physical pain, what about emotional pain? If jumping is causing this horse to be this upset, maybe give him a different job, a different rider, do more 10-40% days, or more trail riding. If the horse is just a “hotter” horse, maybe it needs to learn how to bring its life down and rest with relaxation after having it brought up. If that doesn’t help. Try to find another job he enjoys.
All that was common 50 years ago when I started first riding lessons. We were shouted at, insulted, pushed, and the living sh*t beaten out of the horses, also. Meanwhile, in all other fields it is common knowledge that pain, pressure, insults, disrespect HINDER and block the learning process and are of no use. So why the heck are they still doing it, and using all kinds of horrible techniques in the "big sport" sector and show to the public that its ok for the sake of winning? Agree with all you say here.
I felt really anxious listening to her talk to her students. I've had trainers like her and because of that, I do carry lots of anxiety with me when taking lessons, especially with new instructors. It's awful that behavior like this from humans is not only accepted but praised. Please never stop calling these people out. The horses need you.
Trainers who openly have disrespect for their students and horses should not be allowed to train!!! You want a killer horse, you send them to people like this and you'll get it!!! Everyone one that has /is being abused has a breaking point and THAT is when horrible things happen! What I like to call the 60 second nightmare. She is teaching bad horseperson behavior to the young that as you stated take all her words to heart. A circle of abuse begins! So thank you for pointing this out, parents don't send your kids to people like this!
I grew up with a lot of trainers like this. It’s amazing how much safer I feel and how much better my horse behaves now that I’ve stopped “dominating” my poor horse.
My yard owner often told me my yearling needs good smacking…. Somehow he turned 4, he’s gentle and trying so hard to please these days without any smacking whatsoever… he might be shout at few times, I’ll be honest here but not that he cared that much about that 😅
I agree with everything you said. And people and instructors today saying they were taught by trainers like this and ended up fine are part of the problem. Just like people who say I was spanked/hit as a child and I ended up just fine. It's ok to spank my kid. NO!!!!! You are abusive and repeating the cycle.
lol calling yourself a trainer and not even knowing what a riding crop/whip is supposed to be used for (pro tip: it has nothing to do with punishment) is pretty wild
It seems like Katie is unfamiliar to a number of people commenting- which is totally fine. But just to add more context, Katie Monahan-Prudent was THE biggest name in American jumping in her day. As a woman competing with-and often winning against- men, she brought a lot of interest and attention to equestrian sports. It is a pretty awful feeling to see a childhood hero behaving like this, especially because she could claim to be the inspiration for lot of girls who pursued horse dreams. So disappointing and sad/frustrating!
Going to be honest, if I had a trainer talk to me or regard my horse like that, I’d be dismounting and leaving. I don’t care how much money it cost, I’m not going to stay for a trainer who speaks to me like that or promoting abuse to my horse
The best/worst part is that her training methods are bs. “I’d be flipping that horse over” like maam. You know what that does? It hurts the horse, it hurts the rider, it traumatizes the horse and makes them less willing to comply with your partnership, and most of all it teaches the horse that all they have to do to get out of work is flip over and crush their rider. Same thing with the running into the fence thing. I’ve been to rodeos and seen my fellow riders try to teach their horses with these methods. You know what happened to the horse that was taught to run into a fence? It ran through a fence and almost crushed three pedestrians. Not only is this woman rude and ridiculous, but her training tips are complete and utter bs. The hell
I am and always have been a horse lover. Ive ridden all my life with a few breaks (in time not bones). No animal EVER signed up for the inhumane ways that alot of humans treat them. There is NO book of rules that says horses must be ridden. Im 60yo and was born with a love for horses and a natural ability to ride however it was my darling grandmother who trained me to ride in the show ring. She was in her time considered a great horse woman however her way was to show the horse who was boss and thats how she trained me. She definitely wasnt mean to our horses and neither was I. Over the years tho i knew there was a much kinder way and im glad i sesrched for it. I found this woman very difficult to watch and completely disagree with her methods. Im so glad that the horse world is starting to evolve and that there are many kind hearted animal lovers who are putting the welfare of the horse first. They truly are the most beautiful animal God put breath into and they deserve to be treated with the kindest heart..
I think this commentary was taken out of context at least in part. I appreciate the point that this clinician isn’t the only one who makes rogue statements and I also agree that blaming the horse is not the answer. But I watched the entire clinic and I got some good advice from it. There is a lot going on here from the riders that led to the comments.
Finding out that this woman openly defends George Morris, a child s*xual predator, is the last nail in the coffin for me in terms of judging her.
Defending people who are abusive simply because they were kind to you is a bad look and I think it also reflects poorly on all of the organizations who platform people who defend the trainers (like GM) they’ve banned for their conduct.
It really isn’t a big ask morally for people to not openly defend a p*dophile and victim shame so that coupled w the clinic footage is more than enough to judge the quality of this persons morals IMO.
Even if it was just a “bad day” in terms of how she spoke to students, a bad day doesn’t make you defend a predator.
This! All of This!
I agree with you on most of these things. Going to a clinic should be a learning experience not a place where you are embarrassed or humiliated, much less having to be aware of the danger the clinician poses. I have been to clinics given by Olympic riders that have been wonderful and a grand experience. I have also been to clinics where I was torn to shreds. These clinics are usually very expensive and often require travel, stabling, hotel, etc. In my opinion, it is unconscionable for a clinician to be unkind to the riders. George Morris was always overly demanding and often had riders in tears. We all had him on a pedestal at first but no matter how brilliant a rider he was, he had no right to disrespect people. When the rumors started about his abuse of a sexual nature started at shows it was not really surprising. It certainly added to my dislike for him and answered some questions I had. I feel extremely sorry for those he took advantage of and sincerely hope they will be able to heal. All predatory people should be reported and if guilty, punished to the maximum allowed by law.
Came to add this to the comment section.
I already didn’t like her watching this video, now I just despise her as an SA victim
All I can say is wow!! Definitely struck a nerve to read that. I wish I had not read that comment but it definitely needed to be said. It just so happens to be a topic that has been on my mind most of the week.
You handle all of this professionally and with grace. Glad I ran across you❤
She was talking in such a close minded fashion that the first time I saw these clips I really thought they were from the ‘90s
I agree. This is old school teaching. Not ok now. The rest of the clinic she was fine.
"When someone shows you who they are, believe them." @@shannonomeara243
"They need a good lickin" was so freaking 20th century its not funny, good lawd this woman needs some serious education and removal from equestrian rhetoric 😢
I grew up in this type of training back in the 80s and it made me hate riding by the time I was in my 20s. I stopped riding all together for a while until I had my daughter. She is now 16 and has the passion for it but I am very careful which trainer she goes to so she doesn’t have the same faith in burn out.
Totally reminded me of the 90s.
It's appalling that USEF posted this. We have better ways to train horses and riders. Animal behavior science has come so far. If zoo animals can be taught with positive reinforcement, of couse horses can be taught the same way. Not recognizing clear signs of distress is an utter failure. Competing with horses is not worth this abusive behavior to both students and horses. Thank you for posting this.
I had horses as a kid/teen and had to stop after HS, got back into it as an adult last year, and ended up quitting again because of this.
Inbetween horse riding, I got into dog sports and learned a lot about positive reinforcement. Going back to the horse world after that, where physical punishments are the norm, was just too much for me.
@peep3616 I had a similar route, getting into animal behavior and learning positive reinforcement with dogs and cats. Then, I got back into the horse world and no longer have an interest in competing. The equestrian sport world is so reluctant to accept the science of horse behavior and R+.
I just wasted another hour of my life on required Safe Sport training for USEF…then they put up something like this where the trainer is bullying the kids, which is totally not allowed! Unfortunately there is no Safe Sport for the poor horses 🤬
This.
Yes I agree.
She honestly sounds like she's full of herself. Berating the rider and encouraging the rider to run a horse into a wall or flip them over is so frustrating to hear. Sad because the riders can decide to leave but the horse has no choice in the matter. Thanks Shelby.
“Oh, YOURE doing it wrong, youre messing everything up, none of you can do it right. *I* know how to do it right. *I* can train the horses properly. All of you are just weak. *I* am strong”
I've trained complete beginners to competitors....and I don't ever think I have used shaming as a training tool. Humour....yep....but shaming.... that's disgusting. The trainer needs to get over herself as she is clearly talentless as a teacher!!!!
Amen!! I loved working with beginners; they were so much fun and always worked so hard. 🥳😘🥰
This trainer is not qualified to be training anything, horse or human. Sorry for my direct opinion but I'm not yelling it at her in front of others to hear. What really incites me is the lack of concern for the Grey horse. Watch when the horse is brought to a stop, his left hind ankle, it actually gives out on him. Wtf? And her derogatory remarks to her students are totally unacceptable. She is not fit for this type of job. I hope any of her students that are young enough to be living with their parents will show these comments to them, and they will do the right thing and get their kids away from this pretenders' talons.
Thank you!! I’ve unfortunately had to leave one of my barns recently due to my coach being verbally abusive and constantly shamed us.
Yeah, like I have a strict trainer but shaming has never been used. Nothing cruel has ever been used towards us or the horses as a training tool. In fact, praise from someone who is very strict is the best motivator to do good.
@@wintershock tbf ..training a horse is giving that horse the opportunity to do the right thing to get the best result. Training a rider (who then hopefully will become a trainer themselves) should be the same as for the horses training. Strict is one thing...I can respect strict but this trainer here...as everybody has picked up on...is a nasty bully to humans as well as horses. I am genuinely sorry you had terrible trainers too. Unfortunately they will continue to produce terrible future trainers.
Thank you for this, Shelby. I actually thought I was a terrible rider during all my years at different barns because I thought I was incapable of "dominating" a horse and "making a horse listen to me", all because of the way we are taught as riders by a lot (a LOT) of trainers. I have a total of 10+ years of experience as a rider, and out of the dozen or so teachers I have encountered, only 3 were actually educated both in horse behaviour and how to actually teach to both horse and rider. The rest spoke exactly like Katie Prudent does in this video. All "yank his face off" "he's making fun of you, make him respect you" and other "either do it or stop wasting my time". Yeah. Real helpful stuff /sarcasm
I only started making giant bounds in my equitation when I finally met trainers who talked about horse behaviour and talked to me like an actual person. We need to do better as a sport if we want to move forward and I am grateful for people like you who speak up about the issues we face.
I had a trainer who would go back to basics if the entire group couldnt do something, like even the 1.20M jumpers. In this scenario he would put the poles back onto the ground. "No reason or excuse to ruin a good horse because of an unprepared rider" he used to say
It disgusts me that she is trying to mold these students' minds in her image: one of intolerance, negativity, and hate. Saying "animal rights activists" in a disparaging tone, to indicate her objection should be theirs as well, is attempted brainwashing. Also, her teaching "style" is one of punching down, vs. encouraging and lifting up. She's doing to the humans what she promotes they do to the horses. She's despicable.
Having two parents who are horse trainers that’s philosophy is #1 priority is horse welfare and #2 horse and rider basics and preparation, coming out of the bubble of our barn always blows my mind. We didn’t have packed competition schedules like some of these “competition barns” because it was productive to the learning environment. When we did go out all of the students had top scores most of the time. It’s crazy what building people up and having great foundations does. They always said the greatest compliment a trainer can receive is when they’re student surpasses trainer in skill.
I’m a school teacher. I’d be fired if I talked to my teenage students like that.
I used to have a school instructor like this, who was also the barn owner. I walked out of several lessons because I refused to tolerate her nonsense on the days she was teaching and decided to come after me. My usual instructors were harsh and loud but I loved them and their words were always productive. Unlike the barn leader who would degrade all of us and say things like if we can’t handle a big girl horse we should all ride the barn pony. Well, it served her right then when a few years after I left that barn my family ended up needing to rescue a horse from that barn. One of our friends kept her horse there and he went blind so the barn owner said she could get rid of him or have him put down. Thing was this blind horse refused to go in a dark trailer and was understandably terrified. It took us hours to light up that trailer and finally coax him in (through some gentle and some more forceful means of having a group push him. We knew he was kind enough he wouldn’t kick and it was all hands on deck to save that sweet boy), and all the while the riders that still attended that barn got to watch as the owner continued to fume and rage that we should just put the horse down and stop making her barn look bad. I heard their lessons tanked for a bit after that, but even though they became popular again, I get my salvation through knowing that that horse was saved and he lived his retirement happy in a loving home. The sweetest and most trusting horse you’d ever find, and this lady wanted him put down for the sole reason that he couldn’t make her barn money anymore. In his prime he was one of the barn stars, and was featured on their website and in photoshoots. But he lost sight in one eye due to glaucoma and 50% sight in the other from another illness that I forgot the name of. Anyway. Sorry for rambling. But I wish people would get fired for behaving that way. Unfortunately the world doesn’t always care and we have to be strong in spite of it, for the ones who can’t quite be strong for themselves
The teachers I see now are too busy indoctrinating children.
notice how the grey horse would also jump completely out of his skin over these little jumps. i hope the grey rider finds some peace in knowing that she’s not dumb or stupid, and her horse isn’t bad, just in pain. im so grateful to have my trainer, she is so kind to her students and her animals and a few years back when i wanted to try out bitless riding, she was all for it! only thing she told me was to educate myself on it so i can ride with it properly.
From someone who has personally worked for her/her farm...yeah, this is a pretty honest representation of this woman. Obviously this is the worst of an hours-long clinic but I heard and received tons of this constantly when I worked for her for a season in Wellington...
Any coach/trainer that recommends you beat your horse bc they need it (or really for any reason) is automatically trash in my eyes.
Not to mention she's also defending George Morris while also shaming his female victims for pursuing him in the first place...so either she doesn't actually know why George was catching major heat (he was grooming/r@ping young BOYS mind you) and still backed him up or she for some reason still holds it against young girls to not be groomed by grown men even in the case of a man grooming/r@ping boys...some backward logic all around.
Not to mention the welfare issues with any of those top trainers wherein their horses never socialize, MAYBE get an hour of turnout a day in a paddock smaller than my apartment, and quite literally are only viewed as tools to get fame/fortune/recognition...
Let's face it....there were some parents living vicariously through their children who just want to say their child is with a high profile trainer. Regardless of the cost
As usual, your analysis is spot-on. I grew up with trainers just like this.
'Get after him'
'Give him a swat'
It was only later in life that I realized how bad this was for both horse and rider. Empathy, compassion and understanding are the only acceptable way to teach behaviours to our animal companions, be they horses, birds, dogs, etc. Equestrian culture needs to embrace change, move away from its harsh equipment and practices and grow up, realizing that the use of force and pain is something that desperately needs to be left in the past.
I appreciate all you do for horse welfare.
It's the old "show him who is boss" mentality. There isn't a place for that now, and there never was.
Thank you for keeping it real and speaking truth, Shelby.
I moved my horses out of a lovely facility when I found that the manager had similar ideology to the woman running the clinic. I don’t tolerate or condone punishment as training.
I really appreciate how you took a larger view of this poor excuse for teaching to the larger concern of normalizing cruelty and disrespect in the horse community and the fact that this will definitely turn the public off the equine industry. I appreciate that you emphasized not focusing on this individual but the fact that this is prevalent in the horse industry. Very well stated, Shelby.
Her lack of communication is... embarrassing. Telling someone to "ride effectively" essentially means 50 different things. If you want someone to ride more effectively, tell them how to execute that effectiveness! The horse was running through the exercise which could be "fixed" in so many different ways. The point of a clinic is education. It feels like a lot of whats going on here is just them jumping around and her screaming at them. I also want to mention I totally think part of that grey horse's tail wagging was the lack of communication from rider DUE TO Katie not communicating to her. He truly looks angry, and while I agree it is likely due to pain, I wouldn't be surprised it it was being amplified by confusion. All of the horses in this clinic looked... upset. One of the biggest comments that has confused me so deeply is that we should smack a horse as punishment. I use a crop, but I always use it as a leg extension. Does that mean if my horse won't move off of leg or I had a horse refuse I wouldn't use it? No. But in no world would I use my crop on a bucking or rearing horse. Why ask for the reaction to become more intensified? They do not understand the crop being a "punishment".. you are meant to use it directly behind your leg which to them means forwards or lateral.
I want to mention I've had a old school trainer. Kids (including me at one point) were scared to lesson with her. Over time she has softened up a lot but I still see some of Katie in her. She yells... a lot... but if she wasn't satisfied with a course she would make me come talk to her so the next time we did it, it was better. She is super big on the correct usage of a crop and sometimes I really like getting a lesson in with her because she is real with me. I grew a lot of confidence with her, but that is only because she knew when to coddle and when to make me buckle up. I'm not seeing much of the first in these clips and it just feels like constant insult and poor communication.
I'm getting sick of the "you people are softies" argument. I don't mind when a trainer is a yeller. But leaving lessons and clinics crying because of how mean the trainer was to you is wrong.
It says NOTHING. Tell riders what they need
So as for the grey horse, apparently (as per comments on another post I saw) the grey horse apparently bucks, kicks and bolts when turned to the left. And would always attempt to turn to the left after jumps. Obviously a clear indication that something is very wrong. Along with the tail windmill. So Katie was trying to get the girl to basically beat the behaviour out of the horse. So yeah. The comments she makes seem even worse when you think of those aspects.
Other than the possibility of pain, couldn't the gray horse be expressing frustration at the constant conflicting aids from the rider, or even anxious tense energy of the rider herself? Watching her ride was super unfortunate because you could tell she was getting more and more frazzled by the constant berating, therefore could the horse be picking up on that and just getting more and more frustrated as well? Overall it was a situation that just got worse and worse as it went on and watching such a horrible trainer was painful. My old instructor completely took the joy and love out of riding for me because she was mean, flippant, and would constantly degrade my riding ability. I feel for these riders, I bet they were excited to qualify for such an influential clinic, only to get such a nightmare of a trainer.
You know what hurts the most to me? She reminds me of multiple instructors ive had over the years.
And im no top tier jumper, but my horses are always tuned into me because of the good R+ has done for us!
i was told by a student whose trainer worked closely with george morris that katie wasnt allowed to school certain horses because she would school them into unsoundness because they were difficult
this poor grey horse :( these awful industry standards are why i retired my mare early who now enjoys brushing, play and outdoor life. she is now thriving!
Why didn’t USEF Clinic Committee do their homework? This approach to teaching and instruction is not new for this trainer. There are so many outstanding trainers out there!
Her tone is giving me flashbacks to being a kid in lessons! The tone is so common, you’re right.
I don’t understand how people don’t get this. You analysed this situation thoroughly and brilliantly, with simple language that can be understood by anyone. Just so wonderfully made Shelby, thank you for your commentary
I will stand by my statement that out of all the clinics or lessons I’ve ever taken I learned the least from George Morris. People yell at me but it’s true. All I remember is that he got on my six year old horse and smacked him over and over back and forth over a Liverpool he was already happy to jump. Just made him anxious when he wasn’t anxious to begin with.
I just started riding lessons as an adult because I love horses so much. My riding instructor puts horses first above all and how to read horses' behavior. One time we just did deep breathing exercises with my horse to help calm her.
Instructors like the one you covered today are horrifying.
sounds like you found a pretty special instructor!
I'm trying to find an instructor in my area for me, a beginner adult. But am struggling to find one that treats horses with modern well researched methods, and isn't so competitive since I find that tends to lead to attracting snobby people and impatient goal-focused teachers
@@PredictableEnigma I got very lucky and stumbled across this place because I was at an event unrelated to horses (it's a small part of a greenway that offers so many other things).
(Edit: i hope you are able to find a place to ride!)
I just saw my ex trainer in that woman, that gave me anxiety I FEEL THEM I KNOW HOW IT IS, trainers like her were the reason I quit the sport I loved dearly
I feel so much for those horses, but also for those poor riders. They need genuine coaching, someone willing to take the time to teach them, be kind and take them back to the basics so they can learn properly. I hope all those riders get proper guidance and don’t loose their passion for this sport.
😞💔🐎😞🐎💔😞😞
Some of those riders are already winning competitive classes in wec and the hamptons. Everyone definitely went anxiety brain because how horrible katie was
I super appreciate your advocating and educating on actual behavior science! Punishment procedures are easy, and if that’s all someone can use they have a low skill level. It’s easy to hit and punish. It takes knowledge and humility to learn about the ins and outs of behavior and how to use R+ and other approaches.
One of the reasons I no longer "Compete" on the horse show circuit. It is really just for ego people, chasing ribbons at the expense of the horse, rider and bank account. The horses do not benefit. A lot of those riders do not even spend time with their own horses. Someone else cares for them. They get a leg up and then hand the horses off to a groom when done riding. Riders should not be talked to like that at any level. It does not help people learn. It is also a violation of safe sport because what happened put this clinician in a position of power to make the riders feel terrible and degrade them. It is emotional abuse.
I had a trainer exactly like this when I was first learning to ride. This video brought so many bad memories and anxiety. After an 8 year break I finally got back into it with a much nicer trainer but due to ongoing anxiety I can only do private lessons in fear of being judged so harshly.
seems like another case of the older generations being unwilling to learn and change their ways to be better to their animals and students
"Im RiGhT, yOuR wRoNg, DeAl WiTh It" no carol, youre being proven wrong by science, maybe you should continue learning like the rest of us and be better.
yep, and blaming all of the “youngsters” for being “too sensitive” meanwhile, they are throwing toddler level temper tantrums when they’re told they’re being unnecessarily rude instead of changing their speech to be less rude 🙄
Please don't assume all of the " older generation " instructors are like this woman or unwilling to learn & change . There are good & bad trainers & instructors of all ages & at all levels , from local pros to international level .
It's always dangerous to group any age group into one.😉 I'm turning 70 in 2mo...and I've been fighting against this since I had horses at 16yo. My first horse had 7owners in his 6yrs. I had no internet, no videos, no person around me that even thought about feeling a horse's energy. Knowing by all his actions he had been manhandled, although he loved my farrier....I would have been crazy to think I'd win against a 1,000lb animal by brute force. Obviously, the other owners did not understand that.🙄 It did take 3yrs to get thru to him, that all people weren't bad, and he became the heart horse for a lovely girl.
There have been many of us on the sidelines knowing these things were wrong, and walking in the dark to find better ways. And, there are some awesome old cowboys who knew decades ago there was a better way, but no internet to get that word out.
Even today, the younger cowboys refuse to open their minds. Just after moving to NE Texas, almost 3yrs ago, with my wild-caught Mustang who was 15yo at the time...and I was working liberty with her in the roundpen. The young cowboy who I was told was sooo good, walks up and says, "Is that that stuff you talk about you do?" To say he was close-minded is an understatement. I heard he flipped over a 2yo.🤬
We all have a looong road ahead of us to break this kind of mentality. Thank God for the internet, because it's so much easier to call these asshats out...and try to change mindsets.
@@audreygregis8721 Well said ! Like you , I'm 70+ & decided decades ago (while starting my pro career at 20 ) after watching & listening to the "old timers " who were not open to changes or learning about better training , vetting , etc. that I would be a life long student . Fortunately , I had great mentors , vets , farriers , & even fellow trainers & competitors who helped me . I rode multiple disciplines & had great teachers & clinicians ( except one , but 'nuff said ) . Hopefully , I passed some of their knowledge on to the next generation . 🥰 Returning to riding , as a hobby , this year ! 💙
@@cynthiajohnston424 Good for you! We are never too old to do anything our heart desires.🥰 I just really dislike when someone bundles a whole age group into one, because that is never the case. There is always good and bad, no matter the age...and there always will be. I remember getting to see Walter Zettl, when he was touring with the Parelli's many many years ago...and he was adamant back then that dressage horses should be able to compete in a bitless bridle, if they can do the same as those who used those crazy bits. The problem with most things, there are few of us with a different mindset up against the rest with an "old, have to always do it this way" mindset...and the latter doesn't seem to want better for the horse.
there’s a difference between being direct and just being a bully. I would consider my trainer “direct”, and I don’t come out of lessons feeling berated like this and we are actually quite good friends. She even cares about my horse too! crazy stuff. Horrible on USEF for posting and defending it
You and Raleigh are the only activists I enjoy watching. Love the black and white. Love it being backed by facts, especially if sources are given. Educate the public 👏🏻👏🏻💕
How can you watch Raleigh? She’s this awful, childish mean girl who never got out of middle school drama. Please reconsider that one. She’s not in it to help. She’s in it to talk bad about people but wants to pretend she’s helping so she can still do it as an adult.
@@oldageisdumb I would describe her as "(probably) has her heart in the right place", but she goes about it in a way that I've grown out of. She can be snarky and a bit arrogant of herself, she's edgy and quirky in a way that isn't everybody's cup of tea. She's never done terrible things, she can just be kinda frustrating. I am still sad that she pretty much supported banning bully dogs, despite there being way better ways to deal with the bad owners- and bad breeders-problem, which won't put hundreds of already stigmatized dogs in kennels where they'll be put down eventually.
@@iclynnx I guess each to his/her own. I’ll admit that I never watched her as much as you, so you may know better, but from the little I did watch I didn’t get the impression her heart was in the right place. She completely came across as someone who just wanted to talk bad and make fun of other people. Literally middle school drama. I just can’t.
What I found through the years that a professional winning rider doesn’t mean they are going to be an excellent trainer and the same could be said about a trainer that was a lower level rider. It’s all knowledge both in riding and horse health, delivery, teaching methods and patience is what makes an excellent trainer is in my opinion
Also, the problem with these supposed metaphors / figures of speech, is that we don't really use that language with dog training, at least not in ways that don't alarm most others. We don't say "choke the dog" when talking about simply using the leash to pull the dog back or holding back a dog who pulls. We don't say "throw the dog off the table" when talking about a dog who jumps up on the dinner table. The dog can get hurt. You use a firm voice, show the dog the way down or carry it down. How is it then acceptable with horses, to speak like that? It's why I don't like using the term "kick" anymore for using leg cues. Some kids take it literally and kick their heels into the horse, me included, once I got frustrated enough that the pony wouldn't trot. I don't do that anymore.
Also, when training or teaching, our language shouldn't be potentially confusing for some individuals. Maybe the student doesn't know it's not 100% serious, what then? How is the student then supposed to know what to actually do? Why not just factually explain what to actually do instead of using vague hints?
I absolutely hate the way some teachers say condescending and insulting things to students. I would cry at night being called a "weakling". I was already sad enough sometimes that I didn't know how to post in trot for a long time when everyone else (seemingly) could. A teacher should show, explain, and be supportive. Not tell you "don't do this, you pile of bones, do this! No I ain't gonna tell you throroughly how and why!"
Edit: Oh, and just as horrible is the fact that people see others being hurt as just being "too soft". It's the kind of thinking that has me thinking certain thoughts about my mortality these days. I worry so much about being "too weak for life". I have been made to feel like I can't be strong in the ways that are necessary to exist in this world.
I had one instructor like this woman as a teenager, kind of felt like she taught me discipline at the time but the instructor I had after was a lot kinder and was a better teacher because of it. She still had the attitude that horses could “take the piss” but she was nowhere near as cruel.
I think I understand your concern. The world is scary for me as well. One thing that helps me is to work on taking care of myself the best way possible. I don't do this when I'm depressed or upset. sometimes I think my subconscious is punishing me at those times. So on a bad day, I force myself to do something to take of myself. Maybe I get food at the grocery. Maybe I let myself go to bed vs. me being awake all night. My four categories are: I strive to not let myself get to hungry, angry, lonely or tired. (HALT) Somehow when I work on selfcare, I am stronger for when the world is unkind. Keep your chiin up as much as you can because lots and lots of other people feel just like you do.
Apart from the glaringly obvious issues with how she thinks you should handle and train a horse, I can’t halo but feel bad for the riders. When I was younger I had coaches like this and I was told to do things to horses that would NEVER think to do outside the coaches presence. But as a teenager I was far too scared to advocate for my horse or myself, so I did end up whipping the horse to ‘punish’ them. I never did it as hard as they wanted (through if I didn’t do it hard enough they would make me halt so they could do it themselves, normally far harder than I could even physically do…) It keeps me up at night that I felt unable to stand up for my horse. I used to come out of lesson’s sobbing and begging my horse to forgive me. Luckily I only had this coach for a bit under 2 years before I could get out of the situation. I couldn’t leave because I only owned 50% of my horse at the time and she owned the rest with the agreement that I would stay at her property for lessons.
The trainer’s treatment of the riders is just awful, it brings me back to those lessons and clinics where I would break down and shake with anxiety about everything. My riding would turn to shit under the pressure. Gosh I’m glad I’m an adult now, I’d never let my horses anywhere near this woman
I couldn’t help but think when she said she would make the horse flip over “fuck it, get on and do it then. Go on”😅 She has a lot to say when she’s not the one riding. Obviously you should never do that but I just don’t believe she could ride this horse better than his rider- the horse was so stressed, he wouldn’t be able to handle this woman, he’d be able to feel her anger
This woman was at the top of the sport in the late 80’s - and early 90’s, you can tell she’s very rigid in her thinking, this way of coaching and thoughts about how horses behave are like a time machine back to a competition stables in the 80’s. I’ve never been a fan of her riding but I don’t remember from the top of my head seeing her do anything like what we are hearing at this clinic, apart from some liberal whip use (then again most back then relied on the whip). It just goes to show you don’t know how they really are when they are at home without the cameras
@@melk3498 I audited a clinic she gave in the 70s or 80s and she was awful then, too. Full of herself. She "demonstrated" on a friend's horse, and was so busy bragging/not paying attention that he refused and she went over his head.
@@lesliemoiseauthor I’m not surprised, I’ve never been a fan of how she rides… never seemed quite as stable over the fences as I would expect. She’s always had this way of speaking to young riders. 😬 One of the riders at the barn I was at when I was a stable hand in the states did a clinic with her in the late 90’s and came out crying. She’s not the only coach from this time like this…
I was shocked. Granted when I started riding 40yrs ago flipping horses was unheard of and that type of "training" was accepted. I honestly cannot believe someone pays her. A rider is not going to learn bc she is not training. All I have heard is criticism but not teaching them. I am typing as my thoughts are coming out of your mouth. I loved that you brought up George 😂
Her hostility is going to make the riders tense and upset. The horses feel that. At this point, nobody is learning anything.
I think she needs to retire.
You are 100% right. OMG! You are saying everything I was planning on saying. I learned the same way but I have learned better ways. Horsemanship is a lifelong education.
You did a WONDERFUL JOB articulating this response. Kudos to you.
This is actually what we have been dealing with for so long. It’s very frustrating and difficult to find a trainer who is willing to put the welfare of the horse first. Our mare developed ulcers and was refusing to trailer load because of us allowing harmful training “techniques “ to continue.
Her behavior was unacceptable but so was the riders. These are the top junior riders in the country and they were lacking basic horsemanship. Most of them couldn’t halt after a line or adjust the horses stride. These are made Hunter horses programmed to jump a course with there riders who I guarantee couldn’t even tack their horse properly a groom probably did it for them. This is what happens when you let people pay there way to the of a sport instead of learning the skills.
Oh for sure, but as the trainer its her job to change the exercises to be within their skill level and make it a learning experience for where their weaknesses are instead of verbally berating them and doing none of that.
@@Milestone-Equestrian I think some of the blame should fall on their home trainers as well you shouldn’t be jumping at all if your horsemanship and Flat work isn’t up to par. Most of the riders probably shouldn’t have even come to the clinic. Not that that excuses her behavior at all but I think everyone should be held accountable for the lack of horsemanship at this year’s Horsemaster Clinic.
Thanks Shelby if (possibly) young riders are taught with degrading and sarcastic speech, how does that in any way encourage a learning process? They are taught no empathy with another sentient being, as they didn’t experience it themselves.
And that’s how a choleric screaming teacher made me hate school from second grade on. And it wasn’t only once, but always.
This is why there are sooooo many kids who are all stuck up snobs that do not know or understand anything about horses..... these are the coaches that create those stuck up dumb horseshow kids who only care about their status....how expensive there clothes and saddle is more important than anything
I access pony club coaches for their accreditation… she would not have passed. Funnily enough, she would have failed long before she was belittling riders, the jump grids were not constructed to safety standards, she lefts cups on wings with no pole seated. She did not build with adequate exit space. The distances particularly with the ground poles did not look nor ride correct. Even if I’d placed her lesson on mute, the way the riders were “unable to complete” the exercises at a lower height, and yet she cranked the height up anyway……. If I had been asked to assess what coach, I’d probably be steering the conversation towards alternative career paths. Too much arrogance and too much to improve to ever hope for qualification…… so why does USEF(uck all sense) accept this!?
Well said you...
The response was necessary with the outrage. It's shallow and doubt it will reduce her clinic participation.
I saw some junior riders expecting horses to compensate. This is also how very good horses end up at an auction and eventually that doesn't work out.
Three Bill's going to Congress will help welfare and stop slaughter if voter's contact representative expressing support.
Stay warm ❤
A good teacher doesn't say, "Do xyz," to a young student. A good teacher explains how to achieve xyz. It was so painful to see so many stressed horses in this video. All of them were catch rides; new to the riders. A bad teacher in every way. Is there any way for me to pm you?
I think I would have made a statement with my horse and dismounted and walked out of that ring.
I say this with the utmost respect to you but it sounds like you wouldn't have been there in the first place. The vast majority of these riders at this level, at clinics or otherwise, have drank the Koolaid a bit too much and fast to quit now. They no longer see this as an issue, do not see their horses as anything more than tools, and would just stick it out bc she's a big wig in the industry. Is that right? Absolutely not! Is it what I saw working in Wellington with Katie herself? Yep...
They can’t do that or they’d get bullied out of the industry and lose opportunities. Tbh, a lot of these people are trapped by circumstance because their entire identity is probably tied to how they are perceived in the horse world and most of those closest to them would shame them for taking a stand like that.
I'm right 👍 behind you🐎😞 5:10
Being wealthy and losing opportunities - not really a nice place to be if you can't stick up for what you feel is right. I would have answered back and been thrown out.
@@rottsandspots It’s easy for us to say this when we’re not immersed in that culture, though. Yes, they’re wealthy and privileged by they’re still people and in order to actually properly address the issue we do need to understand why it would be hard for them to take a stand and speak up. They’re all very young, too.
This is what we unashamedly say to the next generation of riders and trainers???
“Horses need a licking sometimes”
Carlee was definitely not unprepared or not up to par on her flatwork. She has a Grand Prix record and just won the Maclay finals. She was probably having whatever issue with that horse being nervous or uncomfortable and katie exacerbated it with her shitty teaching.
Outside of some of the disturbing comments in the video (I really hope these were just a bunch of flaky comments with no meaning behind it), I think there has to be some deeper-seeded issues in individuals to not only treat and teach children to treat animals this way but to be so triggered by a more empathic approach actually being somewhat scientific. I'm convinced some of these types are aware of the studies coming out supporting employment of softer alternatives forms of behavior modification and they think intimidation and contempt will deter their students from looking into it. Completely irresponsible especially since this information could save a life.
I have encountered a couple instructors who are abusive to the students and the horses. It is never helps either horse or rider improve. I have known a couple of trainers who really helped me and my horse. Choose wisely.
No one should be giving orders to you an your horse like that or even anything close. I feel sorry for these people and their horses that fall into a lot of bad advice. I did too and I still get it sometimes but now I can acknowledge it.
Another soft snowflake… Cope or leave. #Soft
@@shannonomeara243you defend pedophilia, so nah, you should leave. Thanks for defending my post and commenting in defence of a child predator with a handle that has your first and last name, though! Easy to identify and avoid you because people who defend abusers are just like them ❤
I hate those types of people. They’re acting like the horses owe us 🙄
Thank you for speaking out about this. There is so much wrong with her workshop. I am appalled that anyone thinks she is a good teacher.
People are constantly saying that whips are an extension of the arm, they should never be used as punishment, they're completely fine. And yet we have a top rider and USEF saying that it's used for discipline and is perfectly fine to hit them when they makes mistakes.
I totally agree that Katie is a throwback to days we can LEAVE IN THE PAST! Sheesh!!! What a way to show your true colors and what a let down when so many people came to GM’s defense. To have the curtain pulled back on so many people you looked up to as a kid is a special kind of Wtaf?!
ANYhoo! Onward and upward! I saw someone mention the grey’s tail wringing as frustration with the rider. I also saw someone mention ulcers. GREAT POINTS! To me, I see the perfect storm of all of these causes.
As I don’t know the girl and horse involved, I’m going to say “probably” a lot in my loooong comment. I’m mainly speaking in general terms as my frustration comes from what the show world has become in general. To me, this particular horse and rider are merely one example of the thousands who have been treated the same way.
FIRST- I DO NOT blame the kid riding the grey for what a humiliating disaster this has turned out to be for her, because this isn’t going away anytime soon. I blame her trainer and parents. The fact that she’s at a clinic with Katie Prudent in the first place means she’s wealthy. The fact that she’s there on a junior jumper that’s tuned WAY PAST her abilities, at a clinic that has expectations that she’s struggling with? That’s on the people recommending the horse and clinic to her in the first place. Shes probably been fast tracked through the pony and junior ranks on mounts that require little more than steering. Shame on everyone involved for first robbing this kid of learning how to ride, much less putting her in this position of being publicly, and eternally, cuz internet!, humiliated. This is squarely on their shoulders.
This horse was probably shown by a more advanced rider that clicked with the horse and was able to get the best from it. They probably made it look easy. The kid from the clinic probably tried the horse while it was still in the mindset established by the better rider, so big problems didn’t crop up immediately. This is where the clinic has come in. BLESS BOTH THEIR HEARTS! 🥺😢
The horse’s tail wringing and habitual turning to the left, while hating turning to the left? It could be due to ulcers on the right that happen to hurt worse than ulcers on the left, but there’s still pain associated on BOTH sides. The horse may not have even had ulcers before now or they got worse, hence the turning issues showing up “out of the blue”. The kid looks like she’s stressed and probably afraid of the horse. She probably DOES hear what Katie’s asking her to do but is more afraid of the fight the horse will give her if she asks it to do what it doesn’t want to do. The kid knows she’s going to be told to beat or bully the horse through it, which has most likely ended in the obvious disaster it should. This is exactly how “bad habits” become ingrained in horses who eventually become “problem horses with bad attitudes”. Well NO SHIT! When you ignore body language or explore health reasons, then chalk it up to bad attitude if no health reasons are found, instead of owning up to poor training OF THE RIDER or BAD PURCHASING ADVICE FROM AN AGENT WITH DOLLAR SIGNS IN THEIR SIGHTS, what exactly do you expect?!
This is EXACTLY what happens when parents with more money than sense get caught up in ribbons equaling clout. OR when spoiled kids mistake money and ribbons as self-worth.
This poor horse. It makes me sad that we have little resolution to the problem as it’s not even seen as such, by so many that keep the cycle going.
A lot of people are focusing on the clinician rightly so, but can you imagine being one of these young riders who are now forever immortalized by this viral video? They probably felt powerless to speak up as to how she was speaking to them, while realizing that the ask was over their abilities. Hopefully they (and their parents) can move to learn from a qualified, more caring instructor how to fill in the riding blanks, and carry on to greater things!
I guess I've been lucky over the years, to only encounter ONE instructor with the attitudes of Katie Prudent. That one instructor held the view that horses were incapable of emotion or even real thought and had to be dominated. I lasted two lessons and quit. Even clinics with Olympians - I've done 3 - I never encountered this attitude (I should mention I'm in Canada, although I doubt that makes much difference) to either horse or rider, so for me this is shocking. I had one instructor who could be a bit nasty if you did something, however inadvertently, he felt could hurt the horse! With the exception of that one instructor I mentioned earlier, every single one has emphasized that the crop is for reinforcing a leg aid, and never for abusing your horse. In my early years of riding, there were rumours abounding about a nearby stable where seriously questionable treatment/training of the horses was going on. That was one stable in an area where riding schools and boarding stables were almost as common as flies!
Yesss Shelby you hit the nail on the head. I was just having this debate with someone. When you’re in a position of power, you have an underlying responsibility to say things that you mean, not flippant remarks about beating your horses/flipping them over/crashing them into fences. I’m not as mad that training like this exists, but that it was broadcast and sponsored by USEF
I'm surprised you've not commented on the recent FEI dressage World Cup. Lottie Fry and Everdale won but god their routine was painful to watch.
Everdale was behind the vertical pretty much the whole time, I'd probably score him a 10 out of 12 on the grimace pain scale but I'm no professional. His legs were disengaged and judge bias was horribly obvious. The poor thing's tongue was blue. The FEI rules specifically state that a score cannot be higher than 5 if the tongue is seen hanging out to the side - what did Lottie Fry score? 8.4. Ridiculous.
Can you link me to the video?
@@Milestone-Equestrian Absolutely! I'll send you a couple since there's a few different angles on the routine (as well as a clip pointing out the blue tongue, since it's a bit of a 'blink and you'll miss it' moment if you don't know where to look for it). The video from the audience member shows the pain face incredibly clearly.
Video from FEI: th-cam.com/video/NfTZu1Vo77g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=saAEY30iNlw1_Gs0
Video from audience member: th-cam.com/video/et8SwVGcEbc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_snf09luc7sais8B
Video from DressageHub pointing out the blue tongue: th-cam.com/video/pTXBv2J_ET4/w-d-xo.html
Have you seen one of Lottie Fry's routines with Glamourdale where he had a 3 beat trot? I don't remember what event it was at but I can attempt to find the video. You can probably notice it in other tests she's done with Glamourdale too
@@Jesswithponies Just seen it now, it's an absolute disgrace.
@@Aimee0206 yeah, FEI judging is not ok
Oh yes, I remember receiving this kind of training in the early 90's. I bought a mare that didn't trust me and she would chase me out of her stall. My trainer told me I needed to go in her stall and beat the crap out of her. I was 14 at the time and I did not do it. I did however ride far too aggressively and I regret it to this day. It's how I was taught. As soon as I grew up and realized there were much better ways, I trained my 2 year old gelding so very differently. There's no excuse for this in this day and age. NONE.🙄
I rode at Plain Bay Farm as a junior, and Katie is beyond rough and in my opinion, abusive. I left as soon as I realized what they considered acceptable treatment of horses. Make no mistake- everyone around her; Henri, Adam, her former student Reid Kessler ( and her parents Murray and Terri) all follow her lead. This was not a one off.
I’m guilty of tagging you in this.
To balance the negatives with a positive I’ll send you 2 amazing resources and examples of good horsemen in sport
Tamarack hill farm
Hyde moffat
i’ve seen this language at at least 3 different h/j barns i rode at from age 5-16. they told me to beat horses as a kid. it’s so common
Hey shelby, i agree totally on everything. I do have a question though. My sister has been training a pony for a while now. She doesn't use whips or spurs and is very gentle with the aids however her pony seems to do a single tail swish almost every upward transition. She doesnt swish a lot, only once every time and she doesnt seem in pain. I was wondering if there was another reason some horse swish occasionally. It is never a windmill tail just an occasional swish.
Any suggestions on what it may be?
I once had a pony who did the same. At fist we thought it might be the saddle and getting him a custom made saddle seemed to fix the issue for a while. Then he started doing it again, and we found out he had a lot of scar tissue from his castration that needed surgical removal and was causing him a lot of pain - it was also what had made his back sore in the first place, because he wasn't moving correclty. After surgery the tail swishing went away for a few months again until he once again started showing signs that he was unfomfortable transitioning between gaits.
We decided to get x-rays of his back and was very surpriset to find out that he (at the age of 12) had developed quite severe arthritis in most of his lumbar and sacral vertabrae. The vets said it was probably die to him being ridden too young (before we got him) and because he had been moving incorrectly due to the scar tissue.
All this to say: Please get your horse checked by a vet, and by multiple specialists if "nothing is wrong". Even with arthritis in half his back, and scartussues making it painful for every step he took, my horse only showed a bit of tailswishing and no other signs of pain. The swishing could be something simple but it can also be a sign of very severe problems.
Ive been told i was too soft every time ive ever ridden around other people. Ive been talked down to for trying to learn positive reinforcement, and it basically drove me to leave the hobby completely.
wow. To say you’d PURPOSEFULLY flip a horse over on you takes a special kind of stupid. Seems like Katie has done that one too many times, eh? It’s ironic that she’s calling someone ELSE weak in the brain… 🤨
Seeing old Katie here, proudly displaying her outdated methods of molding the next generations of horses and riders, I also started down memory lane of my showing days as a kid in Charlotte NC. We showed in NC, SC, Virginia, Atlanta and Nashville, TN. I’m 54, so I got to see several of Katie’s peers when they’d bring younger horses to the bigger A shows for the jumper classes. I’m talking the days when Tryon had one hedge fenced ring, an outside course and was eventually working on a new ring before I stopped showing. I remember all the juniors at my barn packed up and went to the very first Charlotte Gran Prix. I used to have a big thick show program signed by all the riders that I treasured as much as my boxes and boxes of CoTH.
In fact, I STILL have a well worn copy of “A Very Young Rider” sitting on my shelf! When it was gifted to me, it was the fresh of the press! Anyone who’s read it likely remembers George Morris and other famous riders from the ‘70’s, being referenced in it. It also includes a page about his assistant trainer at the time. That assistant trainer was one of the men who later exposed GM as a groomer and pedo! It’s mind boggling to go back and read those parts, knowing the abuse those “featured” riders and trainers were most likely inflicting on the horses and people around them.
I wonder if the pics of those riders schooling their jumpers have canes lying about and I just never noticed them because my eye and mind wouldn’t see them as out of the ordinary? What other “training aides” did I miss? Us “lower level” rider were groomed to see those as simply part of the training required to achieve fame and ability to ride at the Olympic and elite level. Granted, they were whispered about but never spoken about out loud. Seriously?! Wth?!
Most of these trainers and riders were known to school their horses in areas “behind the barns”, removed from the usual schooling areas and usually far from prying eyes. It was said they needed the separate area and odd times in order to avoid the insanity that can be riding among juniors and amateurs. Their horses were investment horses that were being trained to win $100,000 grand prix’s, so fair enough. Tiny schooling areas can be a shite show of a circus. WHO could blame them, right?
Riiiiiiiight…
It was an open secret that they were also doing abusive things like temporarily hot wiring the fences or caning their jumpers so they’d be more careful. I remember seeing both of these happening in the more remote schooling areas, later in the day, after most people had packed up or headed to the hotel for a break before the jumpers went under the lights. Remember, this was long before the days of multiple show rings. A big show grounds that was local to us, Mecklenburg Hounds, had 2 rings and an outside course that was only used once in the 3 years I regularly showed there. Short stirrup and pony kids were early a.m. classes in the smaller ring. The fence height dictated the order of classes. The big, lower ring was for 3’3” and above, which usually started with juniors, a little later in the morning. Gran prixs were night big Saturday night classes. This left us younger riders a looooot of time to wander, watch and learn, perpetuating the cycle of abuse.
As an adult, looking back now, it’s horrifying to think about. It’s no wonder we’ve come to a place where abuse is no longer relegated to the back corners and has escalated to the state it’s become. As you become numb to the seemingly small things, eventually, they ALL become small things!
I'm not into jumping but I see so much WRONG going on here. 😢
This is thinking horses are tools and not partners.
Whether you are a teacher in a school setting, or teaching riding, it is well known that shaming or condescending remarks are the worst way to teach anyone anything. I can guarantee that anyone on this thread, just like I can, even at almost 70yo, will remember when someone embarrassed them, like this lady is doing.
I remember when I heard Linda Tellington-Jones say how she always regretted what she did to horses before she knew better. And that is totally me, before I learned about natural horsemanship almost 20yrs ago. Although my very first horse at 17yo, who had 7 owners in his 6yrs, taught me patience can always turn a horse around...to undo what some asshat has done. Horses are never born to act out wrongly, rather act out to wrong, harsh training methods.
This lady is everything many of us have been fighting to eradicate for decades. I would hope it becomes more mainstream to create a partnership with a horse, but I honestly won't hold my breath. This mindset is so in-grained that horses are just tools, it will take decades more to rid our world of it. Thank you for calling her out...from one of your newest subscribers.💕
Answer to it all is hands. A horse needs a lot of rein to jump properly. Inexperienced jump riders tend also to hit them in the mouth as the horse lands, so the horse puts on some resistance, such as running out like the grey, or simply refusing to make any attempt to jump.
Agree with you. I had watched some clips on FB & my first impression was that the two teachers were giggly, flippant and condescending. Just curious, who were the students in the class & how chosen? As a young teen I remember watching Katie ride at a show & admiring her. Back then, I did have instructors like her...
I would have dismounted my horse and left the training. I would never ever ride for a person like that.
That is absolutely the culture I experienced when I was in the horse world.. And that was exactly the culture that eventually drove me away from it. I miss being around horses, but I refuse to be subjected to verbal abuse.
Thank you Shelby for your input!
The Martingale is too short isn't it. It is putting pressure on the wrong part of the neck. The Auctions are full of punished horses...OMG.
The people taking these classes are the ones responsible for what’s happening. They need to grab some balls and say this is not acceptable behaviour for a trainer and I will not pay for this unacceptable conduct and abuse of horse and rider.
It's hard to imagine people paying money to not only have their horses judged horribly but also themselves. Stop paying money for people to abuse you and animals in your care.
Unfortunately this attitude is so normalized that people don’t even view this as abusive speech and it’s viewed instead as “tough love” and directness. Not being on board with it is viewed then as over sensitivity. It’s very entrenched.
That why it's important for the riders and consumers of equestrian sports to say something and demand change. If change doesn't happen stop using these entities be they a company or a person. Yes it sucks when you can't compete with your peers but you are otherwise saying I don't like it but I can live with it.
Maybe because my daughter trained with trainers I vetted and made sure I refused to accept any toxicity. She ended up in the top doing ponies and moving onto horses. Its a decision of responsibility. Just like gymnasts.....parents thirsty for success makes for stupid decisions........
She's a bully! What a horrible, horrible person!
I Agree, I would leave immediately 💔😞🐎 13:04
I didn’t read all the comments, but…
First, if I was teaching a group that I thought overall wasn’t getting it, then try to pinpoint the holes and take the students back to that. The idea is to teach what you see, otherwise you’ll be creating more holes in the horse or rider’s training.
Second, the student who was riding a horse like the grey, I would stop and ask some questions. Is the horse normally like this, or is this unusual on this day? If it is usual, first try to decide if it is the environment, or pain is involved. If not physical pain, what about emotional pain? If jumping is causing this horse to be this upset, maybe give him a different job, a different rider, do more 10-40% days, or more trail riding. If the horse is just a “hotter” horse, maybe it needs to learn how to bring its life down and rest with relaxation after having it brought up. If that doesn’t help. Try to find another job he enjoys.
All that was common 50 years ago when I started first riding lessons. We were shouted at, insulted, pushed, and the living sh*t beaten out of the horses, also. Meanwhile, in all other fields it is common knowledge that pain, pressure, insults, disrespect HINDER and block the learning process and are of no use. So why the heck are they still doing it, and using all kinds of horrible techniques in the "big sport" sector and show to the public that its ok for the sake of winning?
Agree with all you say here.
I felt really anxious listening to her talk to her students. I've had trainers like her and because of that, I do carry lots of anxiety with me when taking lessons, especially with new instructors. It's awful that behavior like this from humans is not only accepted but praised. Please never stop calling these people out. The horses need you.
Trainers who openly have disrespect for their students and horses should not be allowed to train!!! You want a killer horse, you send them to people like this and you'll get it!!! Everyone one that has /is being abused has a breaking point and THAT is when horrible things happen! What I like to call the 60 second nightmare. She is teaching bad horseperson behavior to the young that as you stated take all her words to heart. A circle of abuse begins! So thank you for pointing this out, parents don't send your kids to people like this!
I grew up with a lot of trainers like this.
It’s amazing how much safer I feel and how much better my horse behaves now that I’ve stopped “dominating” my poor horse.
AGREE! I stopped riding with a trainer because of their tightening of nosebands and girths.
Kate has been taught that training with fear is better than trust. Also. Most of these were HUMAN error, not horse.
This is giving me ptsd from my first trainer 😅 very dominating and cruel.
My yard owner often told me my yearling needs good smacking…. Somehow he turned 4, he’s gentle and trying so hard to please these days without any smacking whatsoever… he might be shout at few times, I’ll be honest here but not that he cared that much about that 😅
As a teacher, we are NEVER allowed to punish students! Self-esteem in the ONLY important thing! We cannot EVER be negative!
Very well said, thank you
I agree with everything you said. And people and instructors today saying they were taught by trainers like this and ended up fine are part of the problem. Just like people who say I was spanked/hit as a child and I ended up just fine. It's ok to spank my kid. NO!!!!! You are abusive and repeating the cycle.
lol calling yourself a trainer and not even knowing what a riding crop/whip is supposed to be used for (pro tip: it has nothing to do with punishment) is pretty wild
It seems like Katie is unfamiliar to a number of people commenting- which is totally fine. But just to add more context, Katie Monahan-Prudent was THE biggest name in American jumping in her day. As a woman competing with-and often winning against- men, she brought a lot of interest and attention to equestrian sports. It is a pretty awful feeling to see a childhood hero behaving like this, especially because she could claim to be the inspiration for lot of girls who pursued horse dreams. So disappointing and sad/frustrating!
Going to be honest, if I had a trainer talk to me or regard my horse like that, I’d be dismounting and leaving. I don’t care how much money it cost, I’m not going to stay for a trainer who speaks to me like that or promoting abuse to my horse
The best/worst part is that her training methods are bs. “I’d be flipping that horse over” like maam. You know what that does? It hurts the horse, it hurts the rider, it traumatizes the horse and makes them less willing to comply with your partnership, and most of all it teaches the horse that all they have to do to get out of work is flip over and crush their rider. Same thing with the running into the fence thing. I’ve been to rodeos and seen my fellow riders try to teach their horses with these methods. You know what happened to the horse that was taught to run into a fence? It ran through a fence and almost crushed three pedestrians. Not only is this woman rude and ridiculous, but her training tips are complete and utter bs. The hell
Is it possible that the Grey horse is reacting to the rider? Not necessarily a pain response as you keep putting it??
I am and always have been a horse lover. Ive ridden all my life with a few breaks (in time not bones). No animal EVER signed up for the inhumane ways that alot of humans treat them. There is NO book of rules that says horses must be ridden. Im 60yo and was born with a love for horses and a natural ability to ride however it was my darling grandmother who trained me to ride in the show ring. She was in her time considered a great horse woman however her way was to show the horse who was boss and thats how she trained me. She definitely wasnt mean to our horses and neither was I. Over the years tho i knew there was a much kinder way and im glad i sesrched for it. I found this woman very difficult to watch and completely disagree with her methods. Im so glad that the horse world is starting to evolve and that there are many kind hearted animal lovers who are putting the welfare of the horse first. They truly are the most beautiful animal God put breath into and they deserve to be treated with the kindest heart..
I think this commentary was taken out of context at least in part. I appreciate the point that this clinician isn’t the only one who makes rogue statements and I also agree that blaming the horse is not the answer. But I watched the entire clinic and I got some good advice from it. There is a lot going on here from the riders that led to the comments.