Which makes u wonder how fast could those bikes truly be with better tyres cuz imo the only thing limiting these bikes is the tyres, imagine them making similiar rules as F1 while introducing a pitstop rule + making a lot faster, softer compounds, wonder how much difference it would make since the race distance is considerably shorter than in F1 or how much could Michelin push the compounds
@@matejsvrcek273 It's a great idea, except that we need to significantly redesign the bike so that a quick swap of tyres is possible. Unlike F1 cars, where tyres are sitting on the outside, and a simple power tool could unfasten it, bike tyres are more difficult to unfasten, due to the chain sprocket system getting in the way. Even if we machine back wheels with the sprocket and disc system ready made, we need to unfasten the chain and refasten it while changing the tyres, and this would increase time and change the characteristic of the bike due to poor chain fastening
@@prabhatsourya3883 true tho the speed of the stop could be enhanced by teams adopting the Ducati single-sided swingarm design for example and I'm pretty sure if u forced the team into finsing a solution they would come up with something for sure
@@matejsvrcek273 Exactly. A rule like that would require a redesign of the entire bike model. I mean, it is possible to do it, my father's old Vespa Scooter had a direct drive design which made back wheel change just a matter of unbolting and rebolting the wheel. I mean, the concept is great. I could imagine a racer starting off with a soft compound tyre, setting blistering lap times for the first half of the race, and then changing over and just maintaining a good average lap time, fighting off other racers who are using soft compound tyres for their second half of the race. The combinations and competition would be interesting.
Those fairings are banned for reason. Top speed is already a problem for MotoGP being higher than F1 creating a need for even larger run off areas and of course higher risk of severe injuries and death.
@@patthonsirilim5739 The need for bigger runoff is extremely serious because airbag suits can’t prevent fatal injuries if rider hits walls at high speed. Having room to slide off the speed before impact is best protection
@@jonasbaine3538 here the thing about airbags since there introduction alot of injuries and death have be mitigated a high side use to mean fracture now it rarely does much more then bruise and being run over by a bike from the back use to mean death or disabality now just big bruises of course if you run 100mph straight into a cocrete wall your dead but track have been fairly the same run off is still dangerous for a bike rider if you fell off the bike at 150 mph there a chance you may tumble long before you hit the wall that tumble without airbag could casue alot of fracture and pain just look at monza muggello kylami silverstone etc
This problem could probably be overcome to make Dustbin fairings stable and safe using some kind of active or passive damping system or longer more streamlined tail would bring the Cp behind the Cg to make it stable. But the sensitivity to crosswinds would still be there.
My friend made one of these fairings back in the 1970's. The crosswind problem is a real issue. My few tests rides on a windy day were not good, and my friend crashed it a few times, then removed most of it. But... we thought it would be excellent for a 3 wheel cycle. It needed a lower profile.
@@matiasdun6599 You might want to check that. I'm not sure it's true. They have more elaborate on board computers, but there's no ABS or traction control. They may have also deleted wheely control to enhance rider skill. Something they wouldn't dare do on a bike any squid can buy...
@@tsubadaikhan6332 MotoGP bikes all have traction control. My ZX14 doesn't have abs or traction control, anyone could buy one then (2006-2009 don't have abs/traction control) It presently puts well over 200 hp to the ground, which is way more than it did when it was stock. I would not let just anyone ride it.
@@matiasdun6599 no not anti wheelie. they got wheelie control but it's not anti wheelie. it gives the rider more control and instead of listening to the riders exact inputs it calculates som out of it to make the front not rise to much but with enough throttle it will still rise and can flip over. it's like if you have ever played a racing game that has assisted braking or assisted steering. it's kind of like that you can still fuck up but the vehicle helps you a little with it. call it a increase in the window of margin of error
@@tsubadaikhan6332 almost all motorsports kind of have traction control and all other systems. they are just very very very expensive and more adjustable. F1 even adjust it all mid drive based on what is needed for the situation. don't know how much MotoGP controls it during the race as i imagine it's harder to change all that when riding a bike than when everything is on a steering wheel and only one thumb away from the adjuster. also normal vehicles usually don't just adjust each different system separately but rather have them bunched up so what you might mistake as traction control stopping you could be more likely to be som other system that is protecting against what it believes is a loss of control. these systems need to be that simple because 1. it's street vehicles 2. complicated systems are expensive AF
Another factor is that downforce on the front wheel makes cornering harder. More grip is needed to counter the downforce. When considering the dustbin fairings of the '50s, you need to look a bit more carefully. Yes, there were handling issues. Some works teams were more successful in dealing with them than others. Successful examples being FB Mondial and Moto Guzzi. They both worked hard to test them, in a specially-made wind tunnel in the case of Moto Guzzi - they used a WW2 aircraft engine they had made just a few years earlier to power it..... The fairing nose needs to be close to the wheel, and well rounded. A tail fairing moves the aerodynamic centre of pressure backwards for greater stability. The Guzzis and Mondials had these features, and were much less affected by the stability issues than other marques. Les so... they were not immune either, witness Bill Lomas competing in the 1956 Isle of Man TT on a dolphin-faired Guzzi V8, due to strong winds. The real reason dustbins were banned was that there was an economic recession in 1957. Many marques competing in GPs withdrew, leaving MV Agusta as very dominant. They had LOTS of problems with aerodynamics, and were able to pressure the FIM into banning the dustbin. They binned it........
More grip is needed to counter the downforce? I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying Edit: Do you mean while leaning into a corner, the downforce acts against cornering grip? I think that could be the only thing you mean, it also makes sense
@@Someone25948 Yes, that is what I meant. A more sophisticated downforce system would give downforce while the bike is upright, but no downforce while turning. A second device would give lift towards the centre of a turn, to counter-act the cornering forces. That would require movable surfaces, and would be illegal in competition. Also, increased grip due to downforce would mean that the bike could be braked harder, which would exacerbate arm pumping issues. While we are at it, let's have a device causing EXTREMELY heavy downforce on the rear of the bike during braking, to prevent the back wheel lifting. Then you can stop a huge amount harder - if your arms can stand it, of course. Let's go all-out, and have an air-brake which would actively slow the bike and add downforce at the same time. If you take a look at John Britten's early bikes, particularly the Aero-D-Zero and Aero-D-One, he was considering these issues - and then for the V-1000, he went for a design with the slimmest possible profile instead. The rear-mounted radiator with internal air ducts from the front was part of that. But I digress......
It's simply because the structure is not allowed in the regulations that are MOTOGP. It's like asking why the rider doesn't lie horizontally on his front to reduce his drag coefficient? Because the regulations state he must be seated and facing forwards (roughly!).
Torpedo.!!!! as far as I remember this type of fairing was known as a 'Dustbin'....certainly in UK anyway...they were sold for road bikes back in the sixties...A friend had an Avon streamliner on his Domi 99... A problem with cross winds made them quite dangerous...fitted to a sidecar outfit probably okay...
Good reminder of the efficiency of the mid-50s grand prix bikes with dustbin fairings. And they weren't all equally dangerous in crosswinds - some were much worse than others. The Moto Guzzis were better than the Gileras, for example. Also, remember the Norton Kneeler, which was more aerodynamic still (and broke the lap record at the NW200 in 1953). Then remember the Baumm NSU record breakers that were the most aerodynamic of the lot - recumbent riding position meant their 125 did 150mph with 16 horsepower in 1956! Also, Bob MacIntyre managed to do the first 100mph lap of the Isle of Man TT circuit on a Gilera with a dustbin fairing in 1957. I've ridden a lot of recumbent (feet first) motorcycles and never had a problem - from Quasars and Phasars to fully enclosed Peraves Ecomobiles and Monotracers on the autobahn. The Monotracer was measured to have a CdA of only 0.18. In my new the 1958 ban on aerodynamic fairings has been a serious restriction on motorcycle development ever since...
When I went to college we were given a question , to get a vehicle to go 10mph faster what would be the smallest possible chance , hp, rolling resistance or aerodynamics , to my surprise it was aerodynamics by a long shot .
Without watchng the video I'll give the answer: the rules specifically prohibit the use of fairings / bodywork that encases the front wheel. This has been a hard and fast rule for decades.
I’ll give the true answer. “A dustbin fairing creates a Center of Pressure that is ahead of the motorcycle’s Center of Gravity.” This makes the bike less controllable
I think it's time to bring back dustbin fairings . With today's knowledge of aerodynamics i am sure they can do something about it like how f1 has underwings now .
@@TinyBearTim They are called ground effect cars and it uses the venturi effect to suck the car down to the ground. Just search f1 2022 ground effect they just brought it back this year last time it was used was the 1980'S
It will introduce more turbulence and make close racing impossible... Plus the speed difference inside and outside the slipstream will be greater resulting in more unpredictable braking points... That will be goodbye to close racing because the only part that riders can now overtake is on the straights. (Like F1).
"dustbin" fairings were used in the fifties Geoff Duke had one on his Gilera. but they are unstable at speed... motors overheat, theres reasons why they stopped being used
‘Legacy’ tracks will not support such (250+mph) high speeds as well. We would lose beautiful tracks from the calendar like Mugello, Phillip Island etc.
Question: Since the winglets are fixed the downforce they create works *against* the tires in a turn, since the bike leans inside and the downforce is pushing to the outside. I would think this slows the bike down in the turns. Does the winglets' aid in accelerating out of turns make up that much for the possible loss in turning g?
The winglets are angled at roughly 45 degrees. In a turn the inner winglet is therefore perpendicular to the ground whilst the other is parallel. Normally, these would work against the tire, but they are built in a way that the inner winglet stalls, thus it doesn't produce any downforce in turns. Since the outer winglet still works, it pushes the tire into the ground and the bike can turn harder.
They only use wings with enough downforce to prevent wheelies under hard acceleration. That's why the wings are small and only on the front. Bikes with large amounts of downforce do not go well on high speed cornering tracks like Philip Island. (Ducati)
@@gasdive And it's BS limits like this, that retards the whole industry. This same barrier to innovation exists in Formula 1. Do you know how creative F1 teams were back then? It wasn't just driver skill, it was great engineering. Then fools & bullies complained to authorities, instead of copying or expanding upon a great idea. Same thing happened to Audi when they brought their AWD system to American racing, competitors whined like b#$%&€ to handicap Audi, then ultimately got AWD banned. Crap like this is why I prefer Streetracing & open-class-Pikes-Peak, over MotoGP & F1.
@@observingrogue7652 they would have solved the stability issues in a season or less, and now we'd have petrol bikes that get 100 mpg and electric bikes with 400 km ranges.
As aircrafts has retractable landing gears, moto gp brands should develop retractable winglets.. In straights, they will be inside fairing producing less drag. In curves, they should pop out for creating downforce while accelerating.. ☺️
@@me_the_machineman downforce is good, but imagine active aero that pulls the bike into the corners! Traction is no longer the limit! 4G turns for the win! :D
Some of these high powered naked bikes out nowadays, can become death traps, when people start fitting one size fits all wind screens on them. They were never designed to see the speeds some of these bikes are capable of. Shit, my Triumph Speed Twin gets near burying the needle at 140mph. That's a fair clip without a windscreen. I did fit a Puig Vision universal "mini jammer" as I call it, on mine. Makes all the difference in the world, especially when cornering at over 100mph.
A draft of side wind and you are off. I tried one from the old days The most unstable thing ever ridden. Ask Michael Dunlop who did the lap of the TT course on a Gilera a few years ago.
Alla hojar som kör på Bonneville ser till att de har den areodynamiska tryckpunkten bakom tyngdpunkten. Funkar likadant avseende sidvindskänslighet på bilar: En VW typ1 med motorn bak är mycket mer känslig än en SAAB92 med motorn fram.
@@observingrogue7652 theres a lot of room for implementation but the engineering team will have a lot of design issues to contend with for consistent downforce: -temperature affects wind density -wind direction (major issue) -rider adaptability to the automated winglet -front tyres lose their grip in the final laps so the automation would have to account for that -suspension geometry would radically change -each corner requires a specific downforce -winglet location would change if it's automated as it can't be too forward so as to put less stress on the front tyre during braking There's probably countless more engineering challenges but still weird they haven't implemented it
I think they should have limitations on developments that won't translate to street performance. Especially when all teams implement the tech. I submit holeshot devices,...why? Everyone has one and they are useless on street bikes, so why? Actuator winglets are at least translatable to street performance.
Hmmm. So why does a half sphere have a lower drag coefficient than a sphere, and why does a cone have a higher coefficient than a half sphere. Fluid dynamics is weird.
So what you're really saying is a dust bin fairing with winglets, NACA ducts, high pressure blow out relief panels and side pod F1 style radiators are coming to a GP track near you soon. 🤞😁
having less drag is not always a good thing for racing either. even with modern engineering designs lowering your coefficient of drag typically means you have to sacrifice down force, which is why f1 cars don't have insanely low drag coefficients because they need down force to corner better, which sacrifices some speed on the straights but not nearly enough to make up for how much better they handle.
yeah exactly. sacrifice speed up top to be able to take corners att a high speeds and actually take them beter at the higher speeds than if in low speeds to the point where they are almost undriveable at low speeds.
@@TheGreatOldOak Oh me too, I'm fearless, but a fully faired motorcycle which halves fuel consumption is way too dangerous for a manufacturer to sell. Guaranteed accidents and lawsuits.
If fairings dramatically increased top speed, the regulators would immediately cut horsepower because a primary job of technical regulations is to keep crashes survivable.
Side wind was the reason, why it's banned, they tried to drill holes on sides, but this didn't helped much, and like in f1, motogp wan't to be close to road legal bikes, safe and stable, even fairing might be banned, in f1 they plan to ban it soon so next will be motogp.
People today are to fixed on dyno numbers and top speed numbers. Which those two things don't win races. Lap times is what matters. Weight matters. How much tire you can keep on the ground matters. Super aerodynamic shapes by force want to go straight. Road racing has turns. And if you really wanna know how specific the fairings on your bike were designed then take them off the bike and go give it a rip. The bike will act so different at speeds of 100+mph that it will probably scare you. The way those fairings are designed are so important to how the bike functions in more ways then one.
Ah so drs like in f1. I think that might add some weight to the bike tho which could reduce the acceleration. Might be a worth sacrifice for top speed if on long tracks but I'm not really sure.
Food for thought that. I'm wondering, now we are seeing such close racing as highlighted by the fact the first 3 races in 2022 had 9 podium riders, is it time to review the rule around minimum bike weights? This is prototype racing afterall and my understanding was the main reason being to avoid a competitive gap between the Factory and Open class manufacturers. However given they already achieve 220mph+ a weight reduction would never be permitted?
I do watch MotoGP occasionally, but it loses some of its appeal to me because the things are so slow in the turns compared to F1 cars. I do wish there would be a way to get the bikes to corner faster. If you watch a video of a MotoGP bike and an F1 car on the same track, side-by-side, the bike looks pitiful in the turns by comparison.
That is true, but it's not really that the bikes can't corner faster, it's that the riders can't. They could add in a bunch of downforce, add in air brakes, all the F1 stuff, but the riders are still only held in by their own grip. To stop faster, the rider's forearms have to absorb that added force. To have more grip in turns the front tire needs more force applied onto it, which means that more force is also needed to turn that tire. And what creates that force? A rider without power steering. F1 has both driver harnesses and power steering, making it less taxing on the driver at the same speed. Therefore they can push cornering speeds much further before reaching the driver's physical limit
If the center of pressure was high on the old design, wouldn’t the new wing design have a worse problem of that? I’m more familiar with cars but having a front end COP especially a large amount of front downforce makes for unstable driving. Wouldn’t having a less aerodynamic front with downforce make it worse? Edit: I think I get it. Back to cars, the previous generation of NASCARs were flat from the right front where to the rear bumper. This aided in cornering and correcting slides. They were also nose heavy which with the flat side gave it an almost correcting arrow effect the more sideways it got. The old motorcycles had flat sides on the front and were rear heavy. I was thinking downforce not sideforce.
Without downforce the absolute max lean angle a bike could achieve is 45 degrees. These bikes can get to 57 degrees+ which means the fairing is generating a lot of downforce. Like F1 balancing downforce against drag to get the fastest lap times is the key to winning. Lets hope bike racing does not go the same way F1 has with silly winglets all over creating so much wake that it is almost impossible to pass.
@@MikeonBikes The max coefficient of friction you can have is 1.0, using trig and physics that means at a 45 degree lean the bike runs out of grip unless you have additional downforce either through aero or perhaps centripetal forces. Nothing can have a friction co-efficient over 1.0, this is part of the basic equations of force and friction that you learn in high school.
@@darmah1959 Incorrect. Tires generate friction through adhesion, deformation and wear. Read the following references. The Racing & High performance tire, Paul Haney, 2003 Motorcycle Handling and Chassis design, Tony Foale, 2002 Motorcycle Dynamics, Vittore Cossalter, 2006 Car suspension and Handling, Donald Bastow, 1993 Chassis Engineerings, Herb Adams, 1993 Competition car suspension, Allan Staniforth, 1988 Drive to win, Carroll Smith, 1996 Engineer to win, Carroll Smith, 1984 Fundamentals of Vehicle dynamics, Thomas D. Gillespie, 1992 Mechanics of pneumatic tires, Samuel K. Clark, 1978 Prepare to win, Carroll Smith, 1975 Race car aerodynamics, Joseph Katz, 1995 Race car vehicle dynamics, William F. Milliken and Douglas L. Miliken, 1995 Science and Technology of rubber, Frederick R. Eirich, 1978 The physics of Tire traction, Donald F Hays and Alan L. Browne, 1974 The Shock absorber handbook, John C. Dixon, 1999 The Tire pavement interface, Marion G. Pottinger, 1986 Tires, suspension & handling, John C. Dixon, 1996 Tune to win, Carrol Smith, 1978 Vulcanization of Elastomers, G. Allinger and I. J. Sjothun, 1964
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People often forget that with race bikes and cars the goal isnt to have the most HP or the highest top speed, the goal is to have the fastest lap time
Within the rules for the class....
Which makes u wonder how fast could those bikes truly be with better tyres cuz imo the only thing limiting these bikes is the tyres, imagine them making similiar rules as F1 while introducing a pitstop rule + making a lot faster, softer compounds, wonder how much difference it would make since the race distance is considerably shorter than in F1 or how much could Michelin push the compounds
@@matejsvrcek273 It's a great idea, except that we need to significantly redesign the bike so that a quick swap of tyres is possible. Unlike F1 cars, where tyres are sitting on the outside, and a simple power tool could unfasten it, bike tyres are more difficult to unfasten, due to the chain sprocket system getting in the way. Even if we machine back wheels with the sprocket and disc system ready made, we need to unfasten the chain and refasten it while changing the tyres, and this would increase time and change the characteristic of the bike due to poor chain fastening
@@prabhatsourya3883 true tho the speed of the stop could be enhanced by teams adopting the Ducati single-sided swingarm design for example and I'm pretty sure if u forced the team into finsing a solution they would come up with something for sure
@@matejsvrcek273 Exactly. A rule like that would require a redesign of the entire bike model. I mean, it is possible to do it, my father's old Vespa Scooter had a direct drive design which made back wheel change just a matter of unbolting and rebolting the wheel.
I mean, the concept is great. I could imagine a racer starting off with a soft compound tyre, setting blistering lap times for the first half of the race, and then changing over and just maintaining a good average lap time, fighting off other racers who are using soft compound tyres for their second half of the race. The combinations and competition would be interesting.
Those fairings are banned for reason. Top speed is already a problem for MotoGP being higher than F1 creating a need for even larger run off areas and of course higher risk of severe injuries and death.
with the new tech air 10 that shuld help out in that department it pretty much cover the rider in an airbag.
@@patthonsirilim5739 The need for bigger runoff is extremely serious because airbag suits can’t prevent fatal injuries if rider hits walls at high speed. Having room to slide off the speed before impact is best protection
@@jonasbaine3538 here the thing about airbags since there introduction alot of injuries and death have be mitigated a high side use to mean fracture now it rarely does much more then bruise and being run over by a bike from the back use to mean death or disabality now just big bruises of course if you run 100mph straight into a cocrete wall your dead but track have been fairly the same run off is still dangerous for a bike rider if you fell off the bike at 150 mph there a chance you may tumble long before you hit the wall that tumble without airbag could casue alot of fracture and pain just look at monza muggello kylami silverstone etc
Highest speed in F1 was 375kph
@@jonasbaine3538 riders now have a special gadget under the seat, when it detect that the bike is going to crash the rider is ejected
Thank you for covering an aspect of the engineering behind these machines. You have a good variety of videos
This problem could probably be overcome to make Dustbin fairings stable and safe using some kind of active or passive damping system or longer more streamlined tail would bring the Cp behind the Cg to make it stable. But the sensitivity to crosswinds would still be there.
It’s sometimes forgotten how successful Moto Guzzi were, in the field of racing.
'La Galleria del Vento' sounds so much better than 'Wind Tunnel' too...
@@tsubadaikhan6332 - so much better! I have 4 Moto Guzzis, so I may be a bit biased! 😀
@@tsubadaikhan6332 absolutely not🤨
Love your channel, your content never disappoints.
My friend made one of these fairings back in the 1970's. The crosswind problem is a real issue. My few tests rides on a windy day were not good, and my friend crashed it a few times, then removed most of it. But... we thought it would be excellent for a 3 wheel cycle. It needed a lower profile.
Correct, this type of fairing was the norm on sidecar outfits in the sixties.
@@brianperry Yup! All the fairing in the world! Low down and have some lunatic in the side throwing his weight about to make up for it.
it is crazy watching the GP riders turn mid wheelie so smoothly to. The Gp bikes look amazing this year to.
MotoGP bikes have anti wheelie on their computers. It's all electronically controlled.
@@matiasdun6599 You might want to check that. I'm not sure it's true. They have more elaborate on board computers, but there's no ABS or traction control. They may have also deleted wheely control to enhance rider skill. Something they wouldn't dare do on a bike any squid can buy...
@@tsubadaikhan6332 MotoGP bikes all have traction control. My ZX14 doesn't have abs or traction control, anyone could buy one then (2006-2009 don't have abs/traction control) It presently puts well over 200 hp to the ground, which is way more than it did when it was stock. I would not let just anyone ride it.
@@matiasdun6599 no not anti wheelie. they got wheelie control but it's not anti wheelie. it gives the rider more control and instead of listening to the riders exact inputs it calculates som out of it to make the front not rise to much but with enough throttle it will still rise and can flip over. it's like if you have ever played a racing game that has assisted braking or assisted steering. it's kind of like that you can still fuck up but the vehicle helps you a little with it. call it a increase in the window of margin of error
@@tsubadaikhan6332 almost all motorsports kind of have traction control and all other systems. they are just very very very expensive and more adjustable. F1 even adjust it all mid drive based on what is needed for the situation. don't know how much MotoGP controls it during the race as i imagine it's harder to change all that when riding a bike than when everything is on a steering wheel and only one thumb away from the adjuster. also normal vehicles usually don't just adjust each different system separately but rather have them bunched up so what you might mistake as traction control stopping you could be more likely to be som other system that is protecting against what it believes is a loss of control. these systems need to be that simple because 1. it's street vehicles 2. complicated systems are expensive AF
Subscribed for the beautiful footage with clear explanation. Talk about being one with the machine.
Another factor is that downforce on the front wheel makes cornering harder. More grip is needed to counter the downforce.
When considering the dustbin fairings of the '50s, you need to look a bit more carefully. Yes, there were handling issues. Some works teams were more successful in dealing with them than others. Successful examples being FB Mondial and Moto Guzzi. They both worked hard to test them, in a specially-made wind tunnel in the case of Moto Guzzi - they used a WW2 aircraft engine they had made just a few years earlier to power it..... The fairing nose needs to be close to the wheel, and well rounded. A tail fairing moves the aerodynamic centre of pressure backwards for greater stability. The Guzzis and Mondials had these features, and were much less affected by the stability issues than other marques. Les so... they were not immune either, witness Bill Lomas competing in the 1956 Isle of Man TT on a dolphin-faired Guzzi V8, due to strong winds.
The real reason dustbins were banned was that there was an economic recession in 1957. Many marques competing in GPs withdrew, leaving MV Agusta as very dominant. They had LOTS of problems with aerodynamics, and were able to pressure the FIM into banning the dustbin. They binned it........
More grip is needed to counter the downforce?
I'm sorry, I don't get what you're saying
Edit: Do you mean while leaning into a corner, the downforce acts against cornering grip? I think that could be the only thing you mean, it also makes sense
More grip and downforce makes the bike harder to turn and more tiring for the riders. Check the marked increase in arm pump problems on riders lately.
@@Someone25948 Yes, that is what I meant.
A more sophisticated downforce system would give downforce while the bike is upright, but no downforce while turning. A second device would give lift towards the centre of a turn, to counter-act the cornering forces. That would require movable surfaces, and would be illegal in competition.
Also, increased grip due to downforce would mean that the bike could be braked harder, which would exacerbate arm pumping issues.
While we are at it, let's have a device causing EXTREMELY heavy downforce on the rear of the bike during braking, to prevent the back wheel lifting. Then you can stop a huge amount harder - if your arms can stand it, of course. Let's go all-out, and have an air-brake which would actively slow the bike and add downforce at the same time.
If you take a look at John Britten's early bikes, particularly the Aero-D-Zero and Aero-D-One, he was considering these issues - and then for the V-1000, he went for a design with the slimmest possible profile instead. The rear-mounted radiator with internal air ducts from the front was part of that. But I digress......
This was a cool history lesson
Nice video as always!!
Very cool to learn from you . Thanks 👍!
Cross winds. If you've ever been hit by a nasty gust on a bike with a full fairing, you sure as hell don't want one of these things.
Such high quality. Thanks!
I always knew banana shaped motorcycles would be the future.
oh wait...
Thank you for knowledge Stimpy.
Happy moto gp weekend in Austin TX!
0:42 imagine going back in time with that bike to the 1950s.
It's simply because the structure is not allowed in the regulations that are MOTOGP.
It's like asking why the rider doesn't lie horizontally on his front to reduce his drag coefficient? Because the regulations state he must be seated and facing forwards (roughly!).
That would be a trip on the straights to see the riders laying on their seats wearing a banana hammock.
@@blipco5 yep and thanks for reminding me they are riders not drivers.
Torpedo.!!!! as far as I remember this type of fairing was known as a 'Dustbin'....certainly in UK anyway...they were sold for road bikes back in the sixties...A friend had an Avon streamliner on his Domi 99... A problem with cross winds made them quite dangerous...fitted to a sidecar outfit probably okay...
Yes, my brother had a dustbin on a Bonnie
Always enjoy your videos- keep them coming 💪
Good reminder of the efficiency of the mid-50s grand prix bikes with dustbin fairings. And they weren't all equally dangerous in crosswinds - some were much worse than others. The Moto Guzzis were better than the Gileras, for example. Also, remember the Norton Kneeler, which was more aerodynamic still (and broke the lap record at the NW200 in 1953). Then remember the Baumm NSU record breakers that were the most aerodynamic of the lot - recumbent riding position meant their 125 did 150mph with 16 horsepower in 1956! Also, Bob MacIntyre managed to do the first 100mph lap of the Isle of Man TT circuit on a Gilera with a dustbin fairing in 1957. I've ridden a lot of recumbent (feet first) motorcycles and never had a problem - from Quasars and Phasars to fully enclosed Peraves Ecomobiles and Monotracers on the autobahn. The Monotracer was measured to have a CdA of only 0.18. In my new the 1958 ban on aerodynamic fairings has been a serious restriction on motorcycle development ever since...
When I went to college we were given a question , to get a vehicle to go 10mph faster what would be the smallest possible chance , hp, rolling resistance or aerodynamics , to my surprise it was aerodynamics by a long shot .
Without watchng the video I'll give the answer: the rules specifically prohibit the use of fairings / bodywork that encases the front wheel. This has been a hard and fast rule for decades.
neato, but the purpose of the rule is the interesting part
I’ll give the true answer. “A dustbin fairing creates a Center of Pressure that is ahead of the motorcycle’s Center of Gravity.” This makes the bike less controllable
I love how your using footage of the 22 motogp season. no old images.
As a rider is a lot easier to understand but your video explained it perfectly
My brain is broken because I know you're saying "Guzzi" but I keep hearing "gussy" and it's cracking me up
Oooh! Imagine if MotoGP removes winglets and have a round at Fuji Speedway!
Nice research!
Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
0:08 nice photo of Jack Miller lol
I think it's time to bring back dustbin fairings . With today's knowledge of aerodynamics i am sure they can do something about it like how f1 has underwings now .
Wtf is a underwing
@@TinyBearTim it's a underwear 🩳 with a wing .
@@TinyBearTim They are called ground effect cars and it uses the venturi effect to suck the car down to the ground. Just search f1 2022 ground effect they just brought it back this year last time it was used was the 1980'S
It will introduce more turbulence and make close racing impossible...
Plus the speed difference inside and outside the slipstream will be greater resulting in more unpredictable braking points... That will be goodbye to close racing because the only part that riders can now overtake is on the straights. (Like F1).
As in F1 car racing, certain spoiler widths are required on certain tracks in order to create more drag thus slow down the race car for safety reasons
💩
YES!!!
Hahahaha love this stuff.
I wanna put a dustbin on my bike lol.
Oh man , this is intresting topic , modern MotoGP started with torpedo fairings
I'd like to be good enough where winglets start really helping
They were always known as 'Dustbin fairings' back in the day.
Chassis is everything for this kinda race
poetry in motion :- D
I love how mario kart wii has a vehicle that looks exactly like this
Soon, wee will have wings on the side of our helmets and shoulders. Then boots. And we will look like super-heroes
"dustbin" fairings were used in the fifties Geoff Duke had one on his Gilera. but they are unstable at speed... motors overheat, theres reasons why they stopped being used
‘Legacy’ tracks will not support such (250+mph) high speeds as well. We would lose beautiful tracks from the calendar like Mugello, Phillip Island etc.
The Honda RC30 is aero efficient, yet the styling is excellent.
The reason is the speed, fairings can be improved so crosswind could be dealt with.
Question: Since the winglets are fixed the downforce they create works *against* the tires in a turn, since the bike leans inside and the downforce is pushing to the outside. I would think this slows the bike down in the turns. Does the winglets' aid in accelerating out of turns make up that much for the possible loss in turning g?
it probably is thay way, or else they would not use them, during cornering you have slower speed so downforce from winglets will be much smaller
@@mosadcoow Slower speed? I've seen MotoGP guys at 55 degrees lean angle or more at over 120 mph.
The winglets are angled at roughly 45 degrees. In a turn the inner winglet is therefore perpendicular to the ground whilst the other is parallel.
Normally, these would work against the tire, but they are built in a way that the inner winglet stalls, thus it doesn't produce any downforce in turns.
Since the outer winglet still works, it pushes the tire into the ground and the bike can turn harder.
@@bayard1332 120 is still slower than 200+
They only use wings with enough downforce to prevent wheelies under hard acceleration. That's why the wings are small and only on the front. Bikes with large amounts of downforce do not go well on high speed cornering tracks like Philip Island. (Ducati)
We are in the era of Group B on 2 wheels.
It's the surface they raced on in group b which created the legend
I would like to see a FF motorcycle racing class. There have been several successful, fully enclosed motorcycles that can cope with side winds.
nah fully enclosed motorcycles are tutti fruitty.
@@rampage3337 Now what did your teacher say about accepting new things?
I believe Dustbin fairing designs can still be used, as long as you engineer in counter measures to crosswinds
No, they're not allowed. The fairing must not go forward of the front rim and the rider's hands must be visible from the side.
@@gasdive
And it's BS limits like this, that retards the whole industry. This same barrier to innovation exists in Formula 1. Do you know how creative F1 teams were back then? It wasn't just driver skill, it was great engineering. Then fools & bullies complained to authorities, instead of copying or expanding upon a great idea. Same thing happened to Audi when they brought their AWD system to American racing, competitors whined like b#$%&€ to handicap Audi, then ultimately got AWD banned.
Crap like this is why I prefer Streetracing & open-class-Pikes-Peak, over MotoGP & F1.
@@observingrogue7652 they would have solved the stability issues in a season or less, and now we'd have petrol bikes that get 100 mpg and electric bikes with 400 km ranges.
Going to make a guess before watching. I'll say it has to do with their ability to use body position to block wind and enhance braking effect.
Wrong, but fun to play the game!
wait, how come you were not first into the first corner? :D @3.15
Dude's head goes in between the body and the handlebars an flips over the bike now you got a headless Rider
As aircrafts has retractable landing gears, moto gp brands should develop retractable winglets..
In straights, they will be inside fairing producing less drag.
In curves, they should pop out for creating downforce while accelerating.. ☺️
Then they could also add aerodynamic speed brakes and soon enough you end up racing actual jet fighters around the track! :D :D :D
@@matejlieskovsky9625 yeah.. active spoilers attached to rear swingarm and tail 😜
@@me_the_machineman downforce is good, but imagine active aero that pulls the bike into the corners! Traction is no longer the limit! 4G turns for the win! :D
@@matejlieskovsky9625 yeah . This to be minded ☺️👍
Some of these high powered naked bikes out nowadays, can become death traps, when people start fitting one size fits all wind screens on them. They were never designed to see the speeds some of these bikes are capable of. Shit, my Triumph Speed Twin gets near burying the needle at 140mph. That's a fair clip without a windscreen. I did fit a Puig Vision universal "mini jammer" as I call it, on mine. Makes all the difference in the world, especially when cornering at over 100mph.
center of pressure?
Best reason is that it looks weird 100% of the time and only helps 2% of the time.
A draft of side wind and you are off. I tried one from the old days The most unstable thing ever ridden. Ask Michael Dunlop who did the lap of the TT course on a Gilera a few years ago.
Awesome
Why they don't use turbo yet ?
I have not started the video yet nor used google why, but I believe is for the sake of advertising their bikes?
Dust bin fairing also created a lot heat and riders went to sleep and crashed is also reason for ban too
The guy at 1:25 came off because it was raining, not because of aerodynamics!
Alla hojar som kör på Bonneville ser till att de har den areodynamiska tryckpunkten bakom tyngdpunkten. Funkar likadant avseende sidvindskänslighet på bilar: En VW typ1 med motorn bak är mycket mer känslig än en SAAB92 med motorn fram.
Jajjemen, 'on point' som man säger i USA.
Now if Moto GP bikes were designed like the AAR Alligator.
I wanna see it.
Why dont they make moving farings like an improved car spoiler.
That old fairing would also kill the cooling to the brakes and limit the riders movement.
Weird they haven't implemented actuator controlled winglets
Right. Bikes need adaptive downforce, for all lean angles.
@@observingrogue7652 theres a lot of room for implementation but the engineering team will have a lot of design issues to contend with for consistent downforce:
-temperature affects wind density
-wind direction (major issue)
-rider adaptability to the automated winglet
-front tyres lose their grip in the final laps so the automation would have to account for that
-suspension geometry would radically change
-each corner requires a specific downforce
-winglet location would change if it's automated as it can't be too forward so as to put less stress on the front tyre during braking
There's probably countless more engineering challenges but still weird they haven't implemented it
@@baneoffsight4871 Did I detect a hint of sarcasm?
I think they should have limitations on developments that won't translate to street performance. Especially when all teams implement the tech. I submit holeshot devices,...why? Everyone has one and they are useless on street bikes, so why? Actuator winglets are at least translatable to street performance.
Thank goodness MotoGP bikes don’t look like the thumbnail 😅😂
Hmmm.
So why does a half sphere have a lower drag coefficient than a sphere, and why does a cone have a higher coefficient than a half sphere.
Fluid dynamics is weird.
Because low lap time is more important than high top speed.
So what you're really saying is a dust bin fairing with winglets, NACA ducts, high pressure blow out relief panels and side pod F1 style radiators are coming to a GP track near you soon. 🤞😁
having less drag is not always a good thing for racing either. even with modern engineering designs lowering your coefficient of drag typically means you have to sacrifice down force, which is why f1 cars don't have insanely low drag coefficients because they need down force to corner better, which sacrifices some speed on the straights but not nearly enough to make up for how much better they handle.
yeah exactly. sacrifice speed up top to be able to take corners att a high speeds and actually take them beter at the higher speeds than if in low speeds to the point where they are almost undriveable at low speeds.
Would be nice if the manufacturers offered an aftermarket economy fairing that reduced the fuel consumption by half.
Way too dangerous.
@@stevenkelby2169 Dangerous for who? I ride a motorcycle.
@@TheGreatOldOak Oh me too, I'm fearless, but a fully faired motorcycle which halves fuel consumption is way too dangerous for a manufacturer to sell. Guaranteed accidents and lawsuits.
@@TheGreatOldOak cross winds will end your life same reason they aren't run in motogp
They already have a technology that will half the fuel consumption. It is called smaller engine. 😁😁😁
Please upload some videos to the spanish channel, u have great videos that can be really useful on our community
If fairings dramatically increased top speed, the regulators would immediately cut horsepower because a primary job of technical regulations is to keep crashes survivable.
Side wind was the reason, why it's banned, they tried to drill holes on sides, but this didn't helped much, and like in f1, motogp wan't to be close to road legal bikes, safe and stable, even fairing might be banned, in f1 they plan to ban it soon so next will be motogp.
The ZZ in Guzzi are pronounced the same way as the ZZ in Pizza.
+35mph? I need one of those for my Honda C90... 😂
If dustbin fairings are so dangerous on corners, shouldn't they be more useful in drag races instead?
Dolphin fairings. They were referred to historically, as Dolphin fairings.
It’s called a dustbin fairing
People today are to fixed on dyno numbers and top speed numbers. Which those two things don't win races. Lap times is what matters. Weight matters. How much tire you can keep on the ground matters. Super aerodynamic shapes by force want to go straight. Road racing has turns. And if you really wanna know how specific the fairings on your bike were designed then take them off the bike and go give it a rip. The bike will act so different at speeds of 100+mph that it will probably scare you. The way those fairings are designed are so important to how the bike functions in more ways then one.
Because the bikes are different, tech has improved, besides its a lot of carbon fiber to pickup up after a crash or to cause damage to other bikes..
Imagine an auto retracting winglet to increase top end speed.
Ah so drs like in f1. I think that might add some weight to the bike tho which could reduce the acceleration. Might be a worth sacrifice for top speed if on long tracks but I'm not really sure.
Next step will be active aero 😎
so maybe then that torpedo fairing would be good on a motorcycle that is meant for commuting to improve the fuel efficiency?
@@delusion2987 makes sense
The goozie
Food for thought that. I'm wondering, now we are seeing such close racing as highlighted by the fact the first 3 races in 2022 had 9 podium riders, is it time to review the rule around minimum bike weights? This is prototype racing afterall and my understanding was the main reason being to avoid a competitive gap between the Factory and Open class manufacturers. However given they already achieve 220mph+ a weight reduction would never be permitted?
Close racing is the most fun
They NEED that downforce
streamlining was banned for road racing. not sure of the exact details. Imagine the efficient fairings we would have on street bikes if they weren't,
Am still suprised how did Brad managed to get 364.4 with that bike ? Definitely must've exceeded track limits lol.
Apart from perhaps the first year or two, the engine was never really the KTMs problem
I do watch MotoGP occasionally, but it loses some of its appeal to me because the things are so slow in the turns compared to F1 cars.
I do wish there would be a way to get the bikes to corner faster. If you watch a video of a MotoGP bike and an F1 car on the same track, side-by-side, the bike looks pitiful in the turns by comparison.
That is true, but it's not really that the bikes can't corner faster, it's that the riders can't.
They could add in a bunch of downforce, add in air brakes, all the F1 stuff, but the riders are still only held in by their own grip. To stop faster, the rider's forearms have to absorb that added force. To have more grip in turns the front tire needs more force applied onto it, which means that more force is also needed to turn that tire. And what creates that force? A rider without power steering.
F1 has both driver harnesses and power steering, making it less taxing on the driver at the same speed. Therefore they can push cornering speeds much further before reaching the driver's physical limit
It would get in the way when they have to throw the anchor out.
I know some roll racers that will do anything for an extra mile an hour ANYTHING😂😂😂
Thos full farings use be called dust bin farings .
Yes we all and the dog know.
As usual, fuck top-speed. Acceleration/Deceleration and Cornering speed are the only things that make you do the fastest lap, nothing else.
We need to go faster in life. More speed= more wrecks.
Aesthetic left the chat..
If the center of pressure was high on the old design, wouldn’t the new wing design have a worse problem of that?
I’m more familiar with cars but having a front end COP especially a large amount of front downforce makes for unstable driving. Wouldn’t having a less aerodynamic front with downforce make it worse?
Edit: I think I get it. Back to cars, the previous generation of NASCARs were flat from the right front where to the rear bumper. This aided in cornering and correcting slides. They were also nose heavy which with the flat side gave it an almost correcting arrow effect the more sideways it got. The old motorcycles had flat sides on the front and were rear heavy. I was thinking downforce not sideforce.
Solution = "Active-Aero" Systems would be smart! .02¢
Without downforce the absolute max lean angle a bike could achieve is 45 degrees. These bikes can get to 57 degrees+ which means the fairing is generating a lot of downforce. Like F1 balancing downforce against drag to get the fastest lap times is the key to winning. Lets hope bike racing does not go the same way F1 has with silly winglets all over creating so much wake that it is almost impossible to pass.
No that is incorrect. Racing slicks can handle well above 1 lateral G.
@@MikeonBikes The max coefficient of friction you can have is 1.0, using trig and physics that means at a 45 degree lean the bike runs out of grip unless you have additional downforce either through aero or perhaps centripetal forces. Nothing can have a friction co-efficient over 1.0, this is part of the basic equations of force and friction that you learn in high school.
@@darmah1959 Incorrect. Tires generate friction through adhesion, deformation and wear. Read the following references.
The Racing & High performance tire, Paul Haney, 2003
Motorcycle Handling and Chassis design, Tony Foale, 2002
Motorcycle Dynamics, Vittore Cossalter, 2006
Car suspension and Handling, Donald Bastow, 1993
Chassis Engineerings, Herb Adams, 1993
Competition car suspension, Allan Staniforth, 1988
Drive to win, Carroll Smith, 1996
Engineer to win, Carroll Smith, 1984
Fundamentals of Vehicle dynamics, Thomas D. Gillespie, 1992
Mechanics of pneumatic tires, Samuel K. Clark, 1978
Prepare to win, Carroll Smith, 1975
Race car aerodynamics, Joseph Katz, 1995
Race car vehicle dynamics, William F. Milliken and Douglas L. Miliken, 1995
Science and Technology of rubber, Frederick R. Eirich, 1978
The physics of Tire traction, Donald F Hays and Alan L. Browne, 1974
The Shock absorber handbook, John C. Dixon, 1999
The Tire pavement interface, Marion G. Pottinger, 1986
Tires, suspension & handling, John C. Dixon, 1996
Tune to win, Carrol Smith, 1978
Vulcanization of Elastomers, G. Allinger and I. J. Sjothun, 1964