Post-script additions: - Dorestad in Southern Frisia, which Hrörekur received control over, appears to have had trade contacts with Staraya Ladoga/Aldeigjuborg, a Norse-dominated emporium on Lake Ladoga in Northern Russia. Perhaps there was a connection, or simply a coincidence? - I read a paper recently which argued for Slavic Rus migration into Scandinavia during the Viking Age as testified by genetic research, there's a lack of Slavic archaeological findings in the region from this period however so it's uncertain. - Runestones are from the 11th century whereas this video concerns the founding of Rus in the 9th or early 10th century. - 'Rus' could possibly stem from the Old Turkic 'Urus'(to fight one self), possibly related to the Chuvash "virash" and Hungarian "orosz"(both meaning 'Russian'). The early Rus interacted heavily with the Turks and it was primarily through this contact that the Muslim sources described them. I will talk about this more in the video on the Rus Khanate. - Some people have commented that Gospodin most likely doesn't have ON but either Latin or Indo-European roots and appears in multiple Slavic languages.
I want to ask, is the modern Russian people Slavic and descendants of the Rus? I heard from Ukrainian and some Polish that Russian aren’t Rus or even Slavic. They said that the Russian appropriate the name from the Ukrainian.
I think there is a connenction and not just a coincidence. Among others the Danes, at this point including the Jutes and Angles of Jutland, had many connections to the Frisians, again related to the Sxons, Angles and Jutes. The seafaring parts of Northern Europe all seem to have had many connections. Just as Slavic people would participate in Viking and Nordic operations in the West, Frisians could likely have had their part in what went on in the East.
Holy cow! Thank you for representing both sides of this seemingly very complex subject in a way which came off as neutral. Since I'm quite unfamiliar with it, it's not super easy to follow along. Maybe - in about 20-30 years - I'll dive into the newest literature, with hopes of more concrete evidences being established by then. Until then, with so many theories and endless speculation, videos such as yours will do. I'll probably have to re-watch it at another time to fully grasp it. Very well done.
this is not early Slavic history. As is constantly repeated in these types of repeated vid fancies @ ancient Slavia It Is ALL Speculation and Assumption via West morons ego tripping. This is fairy story for imbecile adults and immature grown ups in the West dead zone. So any alt hist make believe can turn these ego boosting dreams into nightmares which are also dreams. However it is all true. Fact. Believe it as gospel. Three Ubermensche cartoon Bros did it all by themselves. [Trust those Germanics ! Right ? lol] Never mind it is all counter intuitive and the numbers don't stack up. It is what it is. Children believe anything. It's OK.
I always thought 'rus' meant 'rower' as in one who rows. Scandinavian adventurers looking for opportunity would travel along the rivers, Volga & Don for example.
Yes, Sweden is still called Ruotsi in both Finnish and Estonian. "The men who rows". Mainly from Roslagen in eastern Sweden. They are the original Rus.
The river rowers became merchants and hustlers of the rivers, eventually being paid for safe passage or even as taxi. A renewable resource to replace raiding. At the end of their times, they were apparently having a culture war within the Rus. Usual suspect, its actually kazars and late east Rome got the Rus to move on territories previously Finland. It would start a retaliation from Sweden after the turn of the first millennium ad and start a series of conflicts. It was similar to one sibling slaying the mother of the family, and the head son had to react. Rus from around Moscow, there are still Nordic cousins there. All of the previous is pieced together from folk records in the areas.
Probably amongst the Scandinavians. My grandparents were Slavs from Macedonian region (NOT Greeks) and “Rus” means “Blonde or Blondes”. Rus raiders did invade this region and also were hired as Byzantium guards/soldiers. My guess is, because of their fair complexion the word evolved to generalise all blonde people.
@@Fgwaywhite Slavic Russians are most certainly “Nordic” in appearance and have absolutely nothing in common with the other Turkic tribes situated nearby. Turkic and Nordic (Slavic in this case) folks have always been great adversaries in East Europe.
Very interesting topic. In modern Russian historiography there is no doubt that origins of our state formation begins from some Scandinavian rulers. Some popular Eastern Slavic names also have Scandinavian/German roots: Igor = Yngwarr, Vladimir = Waldemar, Olga = Helga. All three names originate from Viking Princes that ruled Slavic tribes. So names of leaders of current conflict 800-900 years ago would be Waldemar Putin and Waldemar Zelenskyy :D
What do you mean Vladimir has a Germanic root. Vladi- he rules Mir- with peace/the world 🤔 Even in Polish we have a traditional name Włodzimierz which is a direct translation of Vladimir and we were not started by Scandinavian rulers 🤔
@@askarufus7939 you do understand that Poland itself Has germanic roots. Not German as in the the modern nation but germanic as in the peoples originating in the baltic region of Europe
Not true , if we talking about Slavs assimilating eastern Germanic tribes then yes that could result of mixing Germanic names, anyway if you talk of Poland having Germanic origin is stupid as the state was created due to christianization and uniting lechitic tribe's.@@edwalmsley1401
@@edwalmsley1401 I don't know, genetically it might be so, but it doesn't change the fact that lingusitically none of today's germanic languages have "vlad" associated word (or not that I know of) while slavic languages have it in whole range. Władczy- bossy Włodarz- a headmaster Władca- a ruler Władza- power Władać- to rule Etc. It seems to be a strong argument for the name Vladimir not to be called 'of Germanic origin'.
One feature of this study that some commenters are mentioning but that is only implied in the video: the Scandinavians tended to pick up the culture of the lands they went to and even conquered. An example of this cultural assimilation that is well documented is the Normans of northern Francia, who quickly became French speaking. This should make it harder to establish their "founding" of Rus as one could expect that the cultural influence would be mostly onto the Vikings, not the other way around. This openness to adopting other cultures could explain the Slavic gods mentioned in the chronicle. The Varangian guard certainly documents the extensive travels of Scandinavians through the rivers of Eastern Europe on their way to Miklegard, Constantinople. They undoubtedly were visiting the rulers of the Rus. Look at the life of Harald Hadrada. It would seem that the Slavs of Rus and the Scandinavians got along well, had some sort of partnership.
I loved the video I tend to lean more towards the pro-Norman stance but I wanted to make a quick note for the paternal haplogroups of Vsevolod, Sviatoslav, and Izyaslav at 22:41. The haplogroup of Vsevolod of N1c is not usually typical of Scandinavia, but rather of the Finno-Ugric regions of North Eastern Europe. It is not unknown to Northern Sweden or Norway, but it is far more common in the Saami in the present nation of Norway and Sweden than it is to the ethnic Nords and Swedes. For evidence on the pro-Norman side, I think the argument for N1c being Scandinavian cannot really hold its weight for being evidence of Norse rule of the Rus, but genetically speaking it makes a stronger case for the Finno-Ugric and there is evidence of them being in the early Rus settlements in the north as you stated. It is also commonly stated that Yaroslav the wise had the haplogroup of N1c, so I am confused on why his sons wouldn't also have that lineage. With I2a for the pro-Slav argument, I2a is more commonly associated with the southern Slavs than it is to the northern and eastern Slavs. In the Kiev region it is found at around a 10-15%, but I2a is more associated with the people living in the Balkans prior to the Slavic migration into the region in the 6th century and later assimilated into the region.
Nice, as always, we can never be sure of anything regarding old history... almost all "evidence" can be interpreted in different ways and time convelute´s everything. cheers
I read the Primary Chronicle, and was struck by the account of the Byzantine-Rus agreement around 944. It was a historical meeting that influenced the relationship between Rus and Byzants for hundreds of years. I had ChatGPT summarize the Rus envoys based on the original text and almost all were from Sweden, Norway or Denmark: The envoys involved in the Rus'-Byzantine Treaty of 941-944 came from various parts of Europe and Scandinavia. Rus' envoys: Ivar: Probably from Sweden. Vefast: Possibly from Denmark. Isgaut: Could have come from Denmark or Sweden. Slothi: Possibly from Sweden. Oleif: Probably from Norway. Kanitzar: Likely from Kievan Rus'. Sigbjorn: Possibly from Denmark. Freystein: Possibly from Denmark or Sweden. Leif: Probably from Iceland. Grim: Possibly from Sweden. Freystein: Possibly from Norway. Kari: Probably from Norway. Karlsefni: Possibly from Norway. Hegri: Could have come from Denmark or Sweden. Voist: Possibly from Denmark or Sweden. Eistr: Could have come from Denmark or Sweden. Freystein: Possibly from Denmark or Sweden. Yatving: Probably from the Yatvingians, a Baltic tribe. Sigfrid: Possibly from Sweden. Kill: Likely from Norway. Steggi: Possibly from Sweden or Norway. Sverki: Probably from Sweden. Hallvarth: Possibly from Norway. Frothi: Possibly from Denmark. Munthor: Possibly from Denmark or Norway. Byzantine envoys: Nikephoros II Phocas: Emperor of the Byzantine Empire (963-969). Leon VI the Wise: Emperor of the Byzantine Empire (886-912). Michael: Patriarch of Constantinople (944-960). Leo: A Byzantine nobleman who served as a translator for the negotiations. I find this pretty striking. This part reads like a minutes of a meeting and is surely based on older sources. Even today these names are easily recognizable as Nordic names. Surely this is strong evidence for the Normanic school regarding the origin of Rus? At least one girl as well. I'm proud. Any comments?
You need to mention that the names of the Rus/Rurikids are listed separately from the Varangian traders to whom the treaties they've signed had pertained. This is a very important detail, The Rus/Rurikids and the Varangians are two separate peoples, treated so by the majority of the Primary Chronicle, barring the Legend of the Invitation, the Rus-Roman treaties in question, and the Germanic Sagas.
@@numenoreaneternity6682 I don't claim to be an expert. Here is a relevant text: "We are the envoys from the Russian nation: Ivar, envoy of Igor', Great Prince of Rus', and the general envoys as follows: Vefast representing Svyatoslav, son of Igor'; Isgaut for the Princess Olga; Slothi for Igor', nephew of Igor'; Oleif for Vladislav; Kanitzar for Predslava; Sigbjorn for Svanhild, wife of Oleif; Freystein for Thorth; Leif for Arfast; Grim for Sverki; Freystein for Haakon, nephew of Igor'; Kari for Stoething; Karlsefni for Thorth; Hegri for Efling; Voist for Voik; Eistr for Amund; (47) Freystein for Bjorn; Yatving for Gunnar; Sigfrid for Halfdan; Kill for Klakki; Steggi for Jotun; Sverki; Hallvarth for Guthi; Frothi for Throand; Munthor for Ut; the merchants Authun, Authulf, Ingivald, Oleif, Frutan, Gamal, Kussi, Heming, Thorfrid, Thorstein, Bruni, Hroald, Gunnfast, Freystein, Ingjald, Thorbjorn, Manni, Hroald, Svein, Styr, Halfdan, Tirr, Askbrand, Visleif, Sveinki Borich: sent by Igor', Great Prince of Rus', and from each prince and all the people of the land of Rus', by whom is ordained the renewal of the former peace to the confusion of the devil, who hates peace and loves discord, and to the establishment of concord between Greeks and Russes for many years to come." It very clearly states that it is an agreement between Byzantium (Greeks) and the Rus. What do you have in mind?
@@johnr.sageng3475 I've read them, but well done for providing them, the point isn't that the agreement isn't between Russia/Rus and the Romans, the points are the following: 1. All of the treaties list the Rurikids/Rus and the Varangian traders in question as two separate peoples/groups when the context is origin-based. The Varangians were traders and swords for hire utilized by the Rurikids/Rus - who, due to being hereditary, tribal nobility who had traditionally subsided from ruling lands and warfare, refused to perform crafts, therefore requiring middlemen for this vital role. 2. The treaties also list the Varangians as "being of the nation of the Rus" only when their "stately and national" affiliation is being cited (as in, being part of the Rus state, therefore Rus, while not being ethnically Rus).
@@numenoreaneternity6682 Thanks! I agree of course that the Varangians are a different group, since it is a name for various Norse traders and warriors over the centuries, and not a political entity. I presume, though, that the early Rus ruling class stemmed from some of the Varangians? Also that the Rus treaty applied to some of the Varangians that were under Rus political control at the time? I don't see the point about crafts and middlemen? I'm pretty sure that this this text is entirely authentic. It is like reading an email from 945, and you get face to face with concrete individuals in a social and political context. My amateur reading/speculation: These are the details of a second meeting for a treaty that was already established, and which fell apart because of conflicts. The initiators made sure that everyone in power for Rus was represented and that the details were written down. The first that are mentioned seem to those close in power to The Great Prince Oleg (Helge). The presumed Norse ruler has evidently married a Slavic woman, since their son has a Slavic name. His personal envoy is Norse. His brother/sister has a son which has a Norse name (Hallvard), so he/she is probably Norse. The others are probably family and political strongmen close to the prince, most with Norse names. Most of the people in power are Nordic, but with a Slavic and a Magyar name, which makes entirely sense. Later on come the traders, all Norse: "Authun, Authulf, Ingivald, Oleif, Frutan, Gamal, Kussi, Heming, Thorfrid, Thorstein, Bruni, Hroald, Gunnfast, Freystein, Ingjald, Thorbjorn, Manni, Hroald, Svein, Styr, Halfdan, Tirr, Askbrand, Visleif, Sveinki". I assume these would be Varangians. My point is that this text brings us face to face with the rulers of Rus in 945, and they are overwhelmingly Norse. It has the feeling of reading names from contemporary phone book in the Nordic countries.
@@johnr.sageng3475 The "people" in power are the immediate Rurikid/Rus princes who ratified the treaty (Oleg, Igor, and Vladimir, etc) and their attested relatives, like Vladislav and Predslava Svyatoslav, Olga, and the other Igor, not the Varangian traders and diplomats/trade envoys employed by them, or presumed relatives, what people need to understand is that pre-Yaroslav Rurikids were a very small family, and only attested relatives, like the aforementioned Vladislav and Predslava, can be denoted as their immediate relatives, whereas the men and women with Norse names, while also being listed separately from the Varangians, and denoted as elites, are also not denoted as being immediately related to the Rurikid princes in the same manner as Vladislav, the other Igor, Olga, Svyatoslav, and Predslava are - this detail is paramount. The Rurikids in question are listed separately from the aforementioned traders and diplomats/trade envoys based on ethnic origin, the Rurikid/Rus being the Slavs/Rus, and the Varangians being Norsemen. This is attested in the Primary Chronicle, page 63: "But the Slavs and the Russes are one people, for it is because of the Varangians that the latter became known as Rus', though originally they were Slavs. While some Slavs were termed Polyanians, their speech was still Slavic, for they were known as Polyanians (29) because they lived in the fields", and in the fact that the Rus/Rurikid princes, before converting to Christianity, swore exclusively by Perun and Veles, and have never instituted Danelaw-like/Norse-like laws and legal systems in their states - a total exception to all attested Norse dynasties. "about crafts and middlemen"- tribal, and even feudal nobility/dynasties didn't practice trades, like trading (including trade envoys), blacksmithing, and tutoring (the Rurikids hired Varangian tutors as Dobrynya), as a ruling/noble dynasty, they only practiced warfare and governance. Regarding the origin of the names of the first three Rurikids, it is merely a premise that the names are originally of Norse origin, the basis for that premise being the Normanist understanding of the Norse origin of the Rurikids and grass-bare phonetic similarities, but the problem lies in the following: 1. The names in question appear SOLELY among Slavs and are absent among Germanic people, in modern and historical contexts, the proposed premise ignores vital Slavic sound transformations that simply cannot rationalize the transformation from "Helgi" to Oleg, and "Invgar" to Igor, not to mention that Oleg was a seer of the Slavic, not Germanic religion. 2. In the case of Rurik, The 19th-century historian Gedeonov suggested that Rurik is not his given name, but the generic nickname Rerek, which was worn by all representatives of the ruling dynasty of the Obodrites. The assumption was substantiated by reference to the Scandinavian sagas, where allegedly the skald Guthorm Sindri calls the Wendish Slavs “falcons”. The quoted passage refers to the saga of Hakon the Good from the "Earth Circle" by Snorri Sturluson. Guthorm Sindri speaks of “falcon distance" In the context of the war in the 2nd half of the 10th century, King Hakon with the Vikings -" both Danes and the Wends". In the Scandinavian sagas, the Wends (Pomeranian Slavs) began to engage in great pirates from the 10th century, in earlier times, sources record only their land-born campaigns. Subsequently, the author of "The Lay of Igor's Host" calls the adults of Rurik falcons and the prince's falcons, but this epithet has been applied since ancient times to people of noble origin. There's also the possibility that Rurik is just a transliteration of the name of the former port city of Reric - the original Wagrian seat of power.
8:26 I think of Löddeköpinge in Scania when I hear the ludhaniyah. Edit: Also, when I then start to look on a map, there's the little place called Örtofta upstream from Löddeköpinge, that I interpret as maybe could be Artha? It's quite fun to speculate like this. All I can find about the place is that Örtofta does have an old Church from the 11th century. On Löddeköpinge I can read that it was a harbor and a trading hub during the Viking ages, one of the greatest in Scandinavia at the time, so in that regard it could add up. As “Lödde-köpinge” means “Lödde-marketplace” because many place names in Sweden does end with “köping” that means marketplace, I think that back in the day the place name could have been just simply “Lödde” perhaps? Now I feel like I have done some good old “Rudbeckisering” haha 😅
Gospodin is NOT a borrowed form of husbondi. If it is, why does the word "gospodin" exist in Macedonian, Croatian and other Slavic languages whose speakers are far from Scandinavia? If you take the word without its typical Slavic suffix -in, "gospod" it would be a word existing in most Slavic languages.
@@TheBobVova We all know who they are. The scheming, greedy, lying tribe that we are not allowed to criticize. I am talking of course about the Swedes and their global conspiracy against us Finns. They are trying to hide the truth that Rurik, Jesus and the Olmecs were all Finns.
This video is amazing! Born and raised in Sweden, I've never really questioned it until not long ago since I few details didn't sit right with me. I also know how excessive the Germanic propaganda from the 19th century is still alive and well in he west, especially in the English-speaking world which poses a problem since most information online is in English. Things sinply have gone uncorrected due to the cold war and now no one seems to care in the west.
I am pretty interested in history in general and specially in Scandinavian history since i am half Norwegian and half Icelandic. For this reason i often think many historical channels is a lot of bs either because they have very little knowledge and is all over the place without knowing much about anything, or simply is populists. I have pressed subscribe on this channel already after 5 minutes because already after so short time it is clear that you are more balanced. Personally from what i have read, i do not think the Vikings ruled in the east, but i am pretty sure they had some influence in certain things, just like the Slavic people had influence on certain things here. For example it was not uncommon among highborn Vikings to send their sons to east to learn about leadership there from leaders they had a good relationship with there. As i have understood it from reading between the lines when i have read a lot of Viking sagas, they kind of saw traveling in the same way as we see education, of course as a bonus it could also earn them both honour and make them rich. When it comes to the word Rus, you know much more about it then i do, but from all i have read, my mind always goes to Kiev when i hear the word, and next to the inter-connection between the ruling class there and highborn Vikings.(I am probably coloured by being Scandinavian in this view..) One thing i know for sure, is that the Vikings was very aware of the importance of getting married in to the right families to get influence in the area they wanted to have influence in. This we see again and again both in very local scale between families in a small areas, and on a bigger scale from each country to all of Scandinavia. Typically in the sagas when someone wanted to marry someone, the first thing they wanted to know was what family they came from, and that seems to be the most important part of the decision. When it comes to religion and different names, my theory is that some times they thought of them as the same Gods, but with different local names, but in their mind the local name was not so important as what God it was, for example the God of war, the God of fertility and so on. So when they heard of a new God, they would probably ask what he / she was the God for, and if they said War, they would think about it as a local name for Freia or Odin, that also was Gods of other things.. Anyway, this was a interesting video and i look forward to go through your channel whenever i get time. 🙂
That there are no records of Ros in Sweden at that early time is logical, as there are hardly any written records from Scandinavia at that time. The Swedes were mostly illiterate and pagan, so there are no records. However, the coastal region just north of Stockholm has been known as Roslagen for as long as we know, and a person from that area is referred to as a Rospigg. As mentioned in the video, this part of Sweden has always had extensive contacts with Finland, and the Finnish name Routsi for Sweden is generally considered to originate from this. Now, Roslagen early on became part of the area controlled by the Svear, the group whose name also constitutes the origin of the name for Sweden. Thus by the time we reach the literate Middle Ages they were lumped together with this and rarely mentioned as a separate group. Being that this group, the Ros or Rus, always have been linked to Finland, it is only logical that they would try to expand into what is now Russia and Ukraine, and as they were traders and warriors, specifically try to control the waterways to the Black Sea. I would assume they were always a minority in these areas, but that they controlled it militarily. Gradually they merged with the majority population, but way into the at least the 12th century there was intermarrying between the Swedish and the Rus royal families, thus we ended up with a king called Burislev (probably Boleslav).
I just find it very hard to believe that a few Swedes managed to control the Volga militarily. If the Ruriks were Swedish, which the DNA evidence in the video says they're not, then they would most likely just be something alongside of a Russian-Bernadotte. Saying the Rus were Slavs subjugated under the Nordics is like saying that the Swedes were subjugated under the Celto-Galls when Bernadotter became king of Sweden. Gustav also has has a Slavic origin but you'll find me hard-pressed to believe every ruler under that name was some sort of Slavic warrior dominating Scandinavia.
The Rus merged in extremely quickly with the local slavic population if they were truly just Scandinavians. Yuroslav the wise is mostly slavic ethnically.
This is an extremely well made video with some of the best neutral takes I've ever seen, so I just must congratulate you on your great work! But now I just wish that I had a time machine to find out how this old world worked😂
The swedish tribe svear had a group witin the that had the name Ros. Several cities in sweden west of Stockholm used to have the name ros like west ros, east ros and the coast line from Stockholm and following the coast north are even today Roslagen wich means the law of Ros.
@@sergii2945 If that is true the question is still why the word Ros. That was used for several towns in the area called Svea had the word Ros in i Svealand is todays Stockholm and the all land around and all land west in the area called Mälar dalen and west of that to Värmland.
i am a native speaker of serbian and german. a lot of german words have their root in slavic lang. with lots of meaning but otherwise is just a name for some thing in german. eg. odin is supposed to come from old germanic "wodanec".which makes sense in serbian. it means leader and is associated with water probably bc. people were travelling along Rivers that lead them. otherwise i cant find any association in the german lang. and there are endless examples. as you showed, the only true evidence is archeological and tells that they both lived very intertwined with each other. academic history unfortunately is very political and dominated by germans.
Yeah, as a Croat I found the same issue. We (English-speaking internet) is quick to use anything German etymologists and historians "discovered" in the 19th century without questioning it. I believe archelogical-genetics will give us better answers. I understood how weak the Normanist theory when A. I discovered it was a theory (it is presented as hard fact on e.g. youtube) and B. the genetical data of the current population does not really support some great Scandinavian presence of warriors, merchants and elite-class. Especially since those classes were the ones who had most children back in the day due to wealth.
but there are several Slavish words of Germanic origin, one of them related to Stuhl, written almost the same in Russian, you can see the interaction of this two groups in Eastern Europe.
The city of Novgorod was founded by a union of Slavic, Baltic and Finnish tribes, as a place where they could trade and conduct joint business. In this city, never in its entire history were aristocrats ruled; it was governed by a council of citizens (veche). The Vikings were invited there as partners and military force, but they never ruled there. Novgorod has always been a trading republic, even when it came under the rule of the Moscow Tsar. In the 9th century, an army gathered in Novgorod captured Kyiv, which at that time was a Slavic city in the Khazar Khaganate, a convenient place for gathering caravans before marching across the steppes.
It has been said, wherever a bigger settlement was built with a church. The Slavic language grew,while the people all around talked Finnougrian. So the Scandinavian/Slavic influence came from other lands than what we call Russia/Ukraine/Belarus these days.
I study history, and was taught that the reason why this controversy was so, well, controversial back in the day, and sometimes still is, was because many people who were in favor of this theory pretty much insisted that normans, whoever they were, swedens, norwegians etc, have established and created the Kievan Rus out of nothing, therefore created the Kievan Rus, and slavis culture in general. While the most likely scenario and the idea was that a viking clan came to already established community, either settled or fortified in already existing city, and then were assimilated by the local people in around 2 generations. But back then in that day people had a hard on for nationalism and justification to spreading their borders, so they were making up bunch of bullshit to have any reason to do this. Germans in that time insisted that because Franks were german tribe when they conquered Gual, just like Angles, Saxons, or Visigoths who conquered Iberian spain in the middle ages, the Germans now have the right to rule over those countires. Brits used to say that since they bring technology and modern medicine, to the rest of the world, the rest of the world has to pay them for all this, while Ottomans still insisted they are inheritors of Roman Empire as well as God's chosen people so they should rule the world.
Origins of Norman theory are quite simple. Empress Catherine the 2nd was German and wanted some kind of great history for her new empire. Accepting that it originated as Golden Horde vassal state wasn't cool to her, and recognising Rus and Kyiv as the sole origin was putting too much of emphasis on its being occupied land, so her historians made up a fancy story with Vikings. It was pure fantasy initially, though later they've forged some sources to back it.
The age of the latest copy of the ПВЛ is the 12th century. The age of the latest copy of the parallel НПЛ is the 15th century. The year of Catherine the Great's birth is 1729.
@yozhleszy the Primary Chronicle is more of a fairytale, and even then it was allegedly modified for Catherine II (some parts were burned - "years 898-922, 1263-83 and 1288-94 are missing for reasons unknown"🙄) And anyway, even if it is a source, the parts about early Rurikids have no other confirmation other than PC. Ukrainian historian Oleksiy Tolochko in 2015 upheld the conclusion reached by his many predecessors that the Chronicle’s contents are more or less fictional. Tolochko argued that some of the tales, like the story of the Rurikid clan's entry into Kiev, were invented "so as to produce a meaningful reconstruction of past events and include these well-known names" in the author's "historical scenario."[69] Tolochko called the Rus Primary Chronicle an outstanding work of literature with an untrustworthy story and concluded that "there is absolutely no reason to continue basing our knowledge of the past on its content."[70] Paul Bushkovitch (2012) from Yale University writes “the author was serving his rulers, identifying princes and people and leaving historians with a muddle virtually impossible to sort out.”[71] He also mentions that there are discrepancies when overlapping Scandinavian history with the narrative of the Primary Chronicle. For example, “archeological evidence does not fit the legends of the Primary Chronicle” such as: “in Scandinavia itself, there were no sagas of Viking triumphs and wars in Russia to match those recounting the conquest of Iceland and the British Isle’s”. The credibility of the Primary Chronicle should be taken with a grain of salt for its undertone of being a political tool to justify rule.[
Venäjä more likely comes from venedi as a name for all slavs, mentioned in roman and greek sources, and not from the western slavic wends. (Though they are of the same origin)
"Gospodin" originated from "Gospod" - word for God, same root as "Gost"- guest. All those words have Bulgarian/ Slavic origins and are not derived from Scandinavian ones.
A very well-made video! I have now watched it four times already, these four days. I like it how you present the varying view points made based on how sparse the evidence is, that leaves room for much legitimate speculation of highly differing viewpoints. I myself am however biased due to my Swedish descent to lean towards the, here in this video, presented scale end of there indeed being a Norman influence. This because it is a source of pride. Very human indeed. I still can take joy in the great deeds of neighboring peoples such as the Slavs, that also does have a rich, interesting, glorious history as our own in many respects. That our histories are intertwined through the centuries, and even millennia, is something we are together exploring. On the road to knowledge, every view point is valid for consideration. Over time, more and more evidence is being unearthed. These waters are however highly politicized, and therefore muddied by these biases. Something we all have to keep in mind. Being watchful for science, remaining untainted from the sort of corruption that always want to enter there from political influences.
I'm around half slavic, rest is basically German and Baltic. Scandinavian DNA included finnish genetics are around 18%. Non from my German ancestors. So for me it's pretty clear, because it's written in my DNA.
@@magistradox39 Areas around Baltic sea definitely had commune of people with different origins, be it Finnic, Baltic, Slavic or Scandinavian. I myself am 100% Finnish, but paternally from Latvia or Lithuania(Still Finnic line, though). But even that 100% Finnish ancestry is comprised of Baltic, Scandinavian and Siberian ancestries, as modern Finns are basically mix of those groups.
I can certainly see the Vikings ending up in that area of europe. When you think that just a hundred years later they were going to France and then into the Mediterranean and Iceland and Greenland and across to the Americas, surely that little hop across the pond to what is now the Baltic countries, Belarus and Ukraine is certainly very plausible.
I never understood what is so controversial about the Northmen being the catalyst for state formation in the Russian Principalities. They were an ethnic minority that formed a political and military elite that was subsumed within 3 generations into the Slavic sea of the Rus. National pride needs to take a backseat to history. Rurik, Igor, and Oleg and Oskyldr (Askold) are all Scandinavian names. Its the same with Transdanubian Bulgaria and the First Bulgarian Empire. The Turkic Bulgars were an ethnic tribal minority that formed the political and military aristocracy for Bulgaria for 3 centuries until they were subsumed by the Slavic majority and ironically enough the military elite of the ethnic Bulgars were totally annihilated by the same Varangian Russians who had been contracted originally to raid northern Bulgaria by the Romans. The Russians thought they could bite the hand that fed it (the Romans) and invaded Bulgaria proper destroying the political capital of the Bulgars at Preslav and Pliska before themselves being annihilated by the Romans in two pitched battles in Thrace. Its after this Russian-Roman War that actually both ethnic Bulgars and ethnic Varangians were wiped out as the political elites of both countries (Bulgaria and Russia) and where the Slavic element predominates thereafter in the late 10th century in the aristocracies of Russia and Bulgaria.
Because in the affects of Germanys war crimes hang over eastern Europe like a haunting cynical slow death. The founding of the rus by a north Germanic group has been used in damaging propaganda to dehumanize slavs and say they need Germanic masters. Ironic when the norsemen didn't even know that they were Germanic and settled extremely quickly everywhere they went like the Danelaw or Normandy
Очень качестаенное видео. Спасибо. Автор в этом видео не уромянул южные территории причерноморья и Приазовья, скифы/сарматы , как они повлияли на этногенез Русов и впоследствии Русских и Украинцев особенно
Long set of rebuttals, divided into two parts: 1. In the Rus-Byzantine treaties, the Rus’ leaders and their druzhinas swear only by Perun and Veles, even as early as Oleg, and just like the Primary Chronicle, the treaties only contain the Slavic forms of their names. The aforementioned treaties and chronicle differentiate the Varangians and the Rus’ as two separate, unrelated peoples. An immediate example appears in the retelling of the events of 905, when the twelve warbands of the Rus are assembled by Oleg, only one Warband is Scandinavian, and they are Variag/Varangian, and they are clearly stated as separate from the grouping, and notion of the Rus, who are all those twelve warbands, the majority being the Slavs and the last two, Finno-Ugrian, not to mention that during the signing of the Rus-Roman treaty of 907, the Rus/Rurikid and Varangian signatories are listed separately as two separate, different people. Even the Germanic Sagas deem the Varangians as Germans, whereas the Rus’ are treated as foreigners. 2. There are no archaeological findings of Norse colonization of Early Russia, and there are no archaeological, and historical mentions of the worship of Germanic gods in the Rus’. There is evidence of limited Norse-Slavic cohabitation, in the form of the Varangian District in Novgorod (the smallest district, to boot) and in Staraya Ladoga, and items of trade, unfortunately for Normanists, and those like you, are proof of trade, and not colonization. Not to mention the near-total absence of Danelaw-like laws and legal systems in the Early Russian state. 3. The Normanists rationalize the total absence of the worship of Germanic gods in the Rus’ by postulating that the Russes/Slavs, the Varangians, and the Greeks didn’t distinguish Thor from Perun, but that is refuted by the content of the Black Grave - remains of two Varangian men, their equipment, and a religious, dark-bronze idol of Thor, which doesn’t just refute the aforementioned Normanist premise, but also proves that Thor was worshiped as a separate deity and not equated to Perun and that Thor’s worship was limited solely to the Norse Varangians. 4. All archaeological material that reveals Old Norse making was supplanted out of the material culture of the Early Russian elite by items of East Slavic making already by the mid-to-late tenth century and that they utterly disappeared in the eleventh century, which is further corroborated by the historical argument of the appearance of purely Slavic personal names among the immediate ruling Rurikid family - Sviatoslav, Predslava, and Volodislav, as attested in the Rus-Byzantine treaty of 944. After Igor, all historical Rurikids bore strictly Slavic names. 5. In the Primary Chronicle, the most integral paragraph regarding the origin of the Rurikids is found in the Laurentian Text, page 63, and it states the following: “Paul is the teacher of the Slavic race, from which we Russians too are sprung, even so, the Apostle Paul is the teacher of us Russians, for he preached to the Slavic nation, and appointed Andronicus as Bishop and successor to himself among them. But the Slavs and the Russes are one people, for it is because of the Varangians that the latter became known as Rus', though originally, they were Slavs. It summarily verifies that the Rus’ were originally Slavs, and further states that their involvement with the Varangians at one point in history is the reason why they were renamed as Rus’. 6. DNA studies have revealed and verified the Slavic origin of the Rurikids, all historical Rurikids (Gleb Sviatoslavich, Yaroslav Osmomysl, and Izyaslav Ingvarevich) who were tested were revealed to have predominately Slavic aDNA profile, Slavic Y-DNA, and a total or near-total absence of Norse DNA. The oldest and the most indicative historical Rurikid is Gleb Sviatoslavich, Yaroslav’s paternal grandson, and bearer of the Y-DNA I2a1b-Din, an overwhelmingly Slavic aDNA profile with a particular, Mediterranean input which he had inherited from his mother or grandmother, which categorically confirms his status as Yaroslav’s grandson, whereas the modern paternal descendants of Yaroslav the Wise’s firstborn son, the house of Sviatopolk-Czetwertinski - the paternal progeny of Yaroslav’s firstborn son (with his second wife Saint Ingegerd) Iziaslav too are bearers of Y-DNA I2a1b-Din, that just further verifies the aforementioned - that the Rurikids were Slavs, thus Slavic Y-DNA. At this stage, all we need is Yaroslav’s own Y-DNA, and it is done. Furthermore, merely Yaroslav’s Wife, Saint Ingegerd, is the sole Rurikid that is supposed to boast Northern Germanic DNA, but even that is dubious because of her predominately Slavic heritage. (1/2).
7. Originally, before the founding of the Normanist theory (and even after), the Rurikids were denoted as a Slavic dynasty, and the theories were the result of ethnographic and historical studies and not the weaponization of the Legend of the Invitation. The summaries of the theories are the following: a) Varangians from Wagrians or Prussians The Austrian notable Sigismund Herberstein, being an adviser to the ambassador to Muscovy in the first half of the 16th century, was one of the first Europeans to get acquainted with the Russian chronicles and expressed his opinion about the origin of the Varangians and Rurik. Linking the name of the Varangians with the Slavo-Baltic people of the Wagri, Sigismund von Herberstein comes to the conclusion that: “Russians summoned their princes rather from the Wagri, or Varangians than handed over power to foreigners who differ from them in faith, customs, and language". The Scandinavians and the Germans called the Wagri and all the Pomeranian Slavs the Wends. Synchronous sources do not contain information about the connection of the Pomeranian Slavs with the Varangians, although, in the 2nd half of the 10th century, Wendish naval campaigns against their neighbors were a noted sight. b) Lomonosov denotes Rurik and the Varangians as having descended from the Prussian lands, relying on toponyms and later chronicles, which replaced the lexeme “Varangians” with the pseudo-ethnonym “Germans”. Lomonosov “a priori” accepted the Slavic origin of Rurik as an irrefutable fact: "The Varangians and Rurik with their clan, who came to Novgorod, were Slavic tribes, spoke the Slavic language, came from ancient Russians/Slavs, and were by no means from Scandinavia, but lived on the eastern-southern shores of the Varangian Sea, between the Vistula and Dvina rivers ... Scandinavia and on the northern shores of the Varangian Sea is nowhere to be heard ... Our chroniclers mention that Rurik and his Rod came from Nemets, and in some cases, it is written that from Prussia ... Between the Vistula and Dvina rivers, it flows into the Varangian Sea from the east-south side of the river, which above, near the city of Grodna, it is called Nemen, and Rusa is reputed to its mouth. Here it is clear that the Varangians-Rus lived in the eastern-southern coast of the Varangian Sea, near the Ruse River ... And the very name Prussians or Poruss shows that the Prussians lived along the Russes or alongside the Russes. Lomonosov. - "Objections to Miller's Dissertation" c) Mecklenburg genealogies There is a folk legend about Rurik and his brothers, published in the 1830s by the French traveler and writer Xavier Marmier in the book "Northern Letters". He recorded that in Northern Germany, among the Mecklenburg peasants, formerly vigorous, by that time almost completely Germanized. The legend tells that in the 8th century, the tribe of the Udrites was ruled by a king named Godlove, the father of three sons, the first of whom was called Rurik Mirny, the second - Sivar the Victorious, third - Truvar the Faithful... The brothers decided to search for glory in the lands to the east. After many deeds and terrible battles, the brothers came to Russia, whose people suffered under the burden of a long tyranny but did not dare to rebel. The encouraging brothers awoke the lulling courage in the local people, led the army, and overthrew the rule of the oppressors. Having restored peace and order in the country, the brothers decided to return to their venerable father, but the grateful people begged them not to leave and take the place of the former kings. Thus, Rurik received the Novgorod principality (Nowoghorod), Sivar - Pskov (Pleskow), Truvar - Belozerskoe (Bile-Jezoro). Since after a while the younger brothers died without leaving any trueborn heirs, Rurik annexed their principalities to his own, becoming the founder of the ruling dynasty. It should be noted that this is the only mention of Rurik in “Western” folklore, although the date of the legend cannot be established. The legend was written down a century after the publication of Rurik's Mecklenburg genealogy: "At the beginning of the 18th century, several genealogical works appeared on the dynasties of the Northern German lands of Mecklenburg, the former area of the settlement of Slavic tribes of “cheer” or “vigor”. In 1716, the vice-rector of the gymnasium, Friedrich Thomas, published work for the wedding of the Duke of Mecklenburg Karl Leopold and the Russian princess Catherine, daughter of Tsar Ivan V. Thomas used a 1687 manuscript written by the notary of the Mecklenburg court count Johann Friedrich von Chemnitz, who, in turn, referred to then the manuscript of 1418." d) The 19th-century historian Gedeonov suggested that Rurik is not his given name, but the generic nickname Rerek, which was worn by all representatives of the ruling dynasty of the Obodrites. The assumption was substantiated by reference to the Scandinavian sagas, where allegedly the skald Guthorm Sindri calls the Wendish Slavs “falcons”. The quoted passage refers to the saga of Hakon the Good from the "Earth Circle" by Snorri Sturluson. Guthorm Sindri speaks of “falcon distance" In the context of the war in the 2nd half of the 10th century, King Hakon with the Vikings -" both Danes and the Wends". In the Scandinavian sagas, the Wends (Pomeranian Slavs) began to engage in great pirates from the 10th century, in earlier times, sources record only their land-born campaigns. Subsequently, the author of "The Lay of Igor's Host" calls the adults of Rurik falcons and the prince's falcons, but this epithet has been applied since ancient times to people of noble origin. 8. The vast majority of historical and archaeological studies, and with it, discoveries about Early Russia were made in the Soviet Union, the reason for that is that the Normanist dogma was discarded by the Communists who had no bias about the origins of Russia, and since Russia is multicultural, the Communists have gotten rid of the most nationalist of historians in academia, so there was no ideological and political obstruction to the process. The modern Normanist theory was forged almost entirely by 20th-century dissident scientists - those discredited and thrown out of Soviet academia due to their incompetence and shameless sycophant attitudes toward the West. From the start, the theory of the origin of Russia was entirely political to the Normanists. When Soviet Russia fell, the Normanists' pro-Western narrative was favored by the new Russian elite, thus the reason why anti-Normanism and other teachings are being subsequently pushed out of academia - this is the only reason why Normanism is accepted in Russian academia. The totality of the results of the aforementioned studies, when free of ideological dogma, support the Anti-Normanist teachings. Normanist-specific studies, on the other hand, are fewer in numbers, and notably lesser in quality and scope, and by definition, must apply circular reasoning to their work - The Normanist begins with what they are trying to end with, this is the opposite of historicism, and is dogmatism, even revisionism. Furthermore, what you wrote about the ethnonym's etymology is outdated and long-refuted, even by Russian Normanists, the modern academic mainstream is present here (Google Search the following: "Современные научные оценки версии происхождения слова Русь от финского Ruotsi. I часть. 9. The premises you pushed regarding the religious beliefs of the Rus/Rurikids are very amateur. As stated above, those few Norse items of worship were imported from Northern Europe for those, some Varangians employed by the Rurikids or were brought by the said Varangians, and were distinguished from the items of Slavic worship utilized by the Rus/Rurikids and the other Slavs, it goes without saying that the near-entirety of items of worship in Early Russia are Slavic. Your point about Odin being worshipped by the Wends is disingenuous, the only group of Wends that worshipped Odin were the Wendish Jomsvikings, whereas the traditional major deities of the Wends were Perun, Veles, and Svetovid. Furthermore, one of the leading authorities on the history of the Baltic Region, Matti Klinge, furthers the theory that the Rurikids were Wagrian Slavs and not Norsemen.
Your antagonistic attitude is baffling when several of your conclusions are already stated in the video, such as limited evidence of Scandinavian colonization, little to no evidence of Scandinavian state formation in Rus', and most evidence pointing to Scandinavians being present as traders and mercenaries. There is also an abundance of items indicating the presence of Scandinavian culthood in the region, ranging from runic inscriptions to amulets. The religious rites described of itinerant Rus in Volga Bulgaria by Ibn-Fadlan and others appears to be a blend of Scandinavian, Finnic, Slavic, and Turkic practices - this is something I will discuss in a future video. And there is evidence to limited to Scandinavian colonization around the upper Volkhov, such as grain findings similar to ones from Middle Sweden and findings of iron plows of Swedish craftsmanship. I mostly discuss this in the video on Aldeigjuborg/Staraya Ladoga, a settlement primarily inhabited by Scandinavians until the end of the 10th century. Regarding the Wendish theory I am familiar with it and I think it is possible due to vast archaeological findings of West Slavic items in the Volkhov region, most importantly at Gorodishche on Lake Ilmen which appears to have been the center of the "Rus Khagan", but this is something I'll be discussing in the video about the settlement aforementioned.
@@balticempire7244 There are, at most, only several runestones found in the entirety of the landmass of Early Russia, and as stated before, items of Norse worship were items that weren't made in the Russian state, but either imported for those Norsemen who plied their trade in Russia, or were brought with them - as attested in the findings of the Black Grave, and are distinguished from items of Slavic worship that were found all over early Russia, not to mention that the worship of Slavic deities in Early Russia is universally attested, in the form of the Rus-Roman treaties, the PC, archaeology, and modern, dedicated studies on the matter. There's not a single source, modern or primary, that states that the Rurikids or the other Slavs worshiped anything but Perun and Veles as their primary deities. Antagonism breeds the best ideas and debates. Ibn-Fadlan is infamous for his dubious usage of the ethnonym Rus, which he used to denote all peoples who had traded with the Rus in the Volga region, and plied the "trade" of the group of the Rus that he had written about. Regarding the Wendish theory, I believe you shall find the following interesting: 1. We have DNA proof of Novgorodians with the Y-DNA R1a who tested for deeper clades scoring the West Slavic R1a-M458 in the entirety, or near-entirety, therefore confirming the Wendish origin and the relation to Gorodische and Starigrad/Oldenburg. The study is called "Gene Pool of the Novgorod Population: Between the North and the South" (Balanovska et al. 2017). 2. The original language/dialect of Novgorod and Gorodische was West, not Old East Slavic.
Interesting, I will give it a look. AFAIK the West Slavic writing from the early Novgorod region was imported from Great Moravia during the late 9th century and its adaptation in Rus seems to have predated Christianity. Funnily enough the Christian liturgical tradition in Rus would then spread from Bulgaria which in turn had adapted most of its liturgical tradition from Moravian clergy fleeing the collapse of their state.
@@balticempire7244 That is true, they also borrowed the name "Vladimir" from the First Bulgarian Empire - the name's oldest attested bearer being Vladimir Rasate. Regarding Novgorod, I wasn't speaking of their writing system, but the spoken language, which was originally West Slavic.
I lay on the moderate "Normanist" side: the formation of Rus is comparable to that of (post-Anglosaxon) England, there are differences in the details but both were decisively influenced by Nordic (or Viking or Varangian) elites, the Goths and generally Eastern Germanics were a precursor of the Varangians too. A lot of peoples of ancient Rus were not actually Slavs but Uralics anyhow but, much as in Bulgaria, where Slavs arrived under a Turkic (post-Hunnic) elite, they managed to make their language and culture hegemonic anyhow (probably because they were less elitist and more friendly to everyone but also had the numbers).
Yup, even though the danes and norwegians ruled parts of Ireland, scottland and england etc they were still as a whole a minority and over the centuries they completly integrated with the population there. It is obviously roughly the same thing that happend in Kievanrus.
@@Mukation - They had a significant impact in English language, mostly as Norman French but also arguably as Danish influence. I can only imagine that similarly Old Norse or proto-Swedish had some influence on Easterm Slavic (Rus languages) but I don't know enough to judge that.
I don't want to turn this into an infantile argument, because I understand that maybe you don't know much about the history of Eastern Europe in general, let alone the Slavs. The Bulgarian Slavs did not come "under the Turkic elite", but maybe a century before the Bulgars (Turkic tribe after whom they are named today). I'm not Bulgarian, just to emphasize. The first rulers of the Bulgarian empire were of Turkic Bulgar origin, but very quickly, after only a few generations, the ruling dynasty and the entire empire was already completely Slavic(there are no records of any Slavic-Bulgarian conflicts that would imply either inferiority or superiority of either). In the genetics of today's population of Bulgaria, the Turkic element is completely negligible (although Bulgaria itself was later under the Ottoman Empire for almost 500 years). The former Ural peoples on the other hand, today are an important part of the total Russian genetics, but mostly in the northern parts. The most important areas of Kievan Rus, including Kiev, were dominantly Slavic. Also, maybe you didn't watch the video to the end, but the genetics of the ruling elite of Kievan Rus are clearly indicated at least from Yaroslav, who according to the official (even moderate) Normanist theory should be a direct descendant of Rurik (although he has a completely Slavic name and gives such names to his successors ) as "typically Slavic" I2a haplogroup(dominant among South Slavs and present in a significant percentage only among Ukrainians and Belarusians today). As for the Goths, what you are talking about applies exclusively to the Western Goths. Eastern ones are much more complicated, both genetically and in terms of historical documents. Interestingly, there is a document from the 12th century, "Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin" (a Catholic priest from Duklja, an ancient Slavic principality, which is today Montenegro), in which the author basically collects folk tales about past times (I repeat, the 12th century) and he uses the term "Goths" as a group title for the people from whom the Slavs "separated" (he means the south Slavs). This document is not any kind of "evidence" and official historiography rejects it as such (just as it rejects Nestor's chronicles), but I just want to emphasize that it exists. And just to mention one more interesting thing that is also not a proof of anything nor do I think it should be seen as such, but the very Slavs that the priest Dukljanin writes about and to whom he belongs, are those whose descendants today carry up to over 50% of the I2a haplogroup . These are the Slavs who throughout history were also known as "Neretlians". They settled on the shores of the Adriatic approximately in the 7th or 8th century (officially) and already in the 9th century forced Venice, the most powerful maritime power of the Mediterranean, to pay them tribute for safe passage. So, Slavs without absolutely any maritime tradition and who for some reason thinks that they are Goths , in just 100 years become...not to say, "Vikings". Interesting, nothing more.
@@boogeyman4937 - You may be thinking of the Slavs associated to the Avars but the fact is that Byzantium (Maurice, 602) managed to expel them. They may still be related somehow but they were not established south of the Danube in any significant way before the Bulgar conquest (681 onwards). Let's keep it succint, right on point and please make some paragraph breaks for readibility. TY.
People adopt a new language for economic motivations, generally. That "Slavic" became the dominant language in many cultural melting pots reveals that the Slavic Economy was the best option for all of the mixed-ethnicity admixtures who came to live amongst them. This shifts the entire paradigm of some ill-explained "Slavic under-class" to the obvious reinterpretation of a desireable and enviable prestige to be considered as if you were also "Slavic". This turns the whole historic "Germanic" propaganda on its head, where those lies and idiocy ought to be. "Slavic" was a prestige language, embedded in a superior economy. Simple and as obvious as that.
What if there was no direct continuity of some dynasty ? And as you said in the video Yaroslav had slavic genetic origin, that could indicate that ruler's was multi ethnic from different origin and just claiming to be of Rurik origin to justify the Rule as there wasn't nationalism during the Time. As me from czech republic it reminded me Charles IV of Luxembourg dynasty who described himself in "Vita Caroli" as more from Přemyslid dynasty, same to justify the land rule because there was a lot of anti german propaganda in Bohemia during that time, for example "Dalimil chronicle" , so that could be same in Kievan Rus, that some prince who get power over kievan rus simply refer to himself to previous dynasty.
This could have happened. The lack of genetic a genetic link only really proves that the rulers of Rus definately had Slavic ancestry after a certain point. Also as mentioned in the video Rurik may be a fictional character, even if he had some basis in real events.
Might not the mongol invasion have something to do with it? If I remember correctly, they killed a lot of the leaders and people of Kievan Rus. If not for them, I suspect we would have a lot more and better sources, both genetically and historically since Kievan Rus was an advanced society for its time, with many learned people and wealth.
Even as a disabled guy with a bad left side... with a normal backpack.. I can walk 20 to 30 km a day... in a 10-day period that's about 180 MI... in a 100-day period... now if I was traveling by a horse... the distance would double.... but according to so-called science everything is such a slow progression we walk so slowly through everything..
Basicly what happend is that the swedish vikings got drunk and sailed in the wrong direction when the rest of us went to England :D .. With love from Denmark
The first question, who were the Vikings there, is the dominant I1 haplogroup? It is known that the Vikings looted in the West, but I have not heard that they did it in the East, why?
Yes, the Vikings from present-day Svealand, who were called Rus, created a number of trading cities that formed the basis of Russia. The Finns name for Sweden is Still Rus.
Ruotsi*????? does that mean it derives from the word Rus automatically? I think it derives from when swedes were called "rowers" in Finland. Or did i misunderstood your grammar.
The newly tested remains of Rurikid princes show haplogroups I2a-dinaric and a local R1a variant. Other, newer Rurikid princes were found to be N1c ( Scandinavian version of an Uralic / Finnic ancestry ). So, earliest found Rurikids had l2a and R1a. The Arabs and Persians also differentiated that Rus are SALAWIYA which to them wasn't the same as Saqaliba. Salawiya seems to be the name of a "tribe", while Saqaliba could be slaves. The area where Rus appears also is the area where Roxolani ( Rukhs-Alani ) used to live. Rukhs means light-complexioned in Ossetian, Rus means light-complexioned in Slavic, Kumans also has the same meaning Qum-man - light-complexioned tribe.
Rus literally means fair-haired, fair-skinned, ruddy, red haired in south Slavic languages which split from east-Slavic some 600 years BEFORE there was a Rus state. It's an indo-European rooted word which also has relations to words like rust, lux etc.
This is fascinating. My maternal grandmother, who was from the sub-Carpathian valley, insisted that our family origins were Rus-not Russian, Ukranianian, or anything but Rus. Most of us have very fair skin and several of us have red or red-blonde hair. I grew up being told that was because of our Rusyn heritage. My grandmother also referred to Perun when weather was fierce. Now I wonder if our background goes back to Vikings.
Unfortunately this video doesn't include any references to Rusyn or Ruthenian. Old western Ukraine used to be Galicia and Volhynia, and In polish its "rus".
Yes Rusyns are a separate, officially recognized ethnic group speaking a language separate from Ukrainian, but both stem from Ruthenian which stems from Old East Slavic, same as Russian. They have as much to do with the old Rus' as the other Slavic ethnic groups originating from its borders, and seem to have developed into a distinct group outside of the timeframe covered in this video. Hence why it wasn't covered. It's already a long video.
@@balticempire7244 Rusyn-Ruthenian-Ukrainian it is ukrainian.Several endonyms such as Rus' and Rusyn were used widely by the East Slavs of Kievan Rus' during the medieval period.Rusyns are considered (by both state and cultural authorities) only a sub-group of the Ukrainian people.
汉语 是 俄国 in Chinese Russia is Eguo. Sweden is Ruidan, 瑞典, Apologies cannot type Pinyin. For the Mandarin Chinese speakers the Swedes are Ru and the Russians are not Ru
I follow the Normanist calp myself not the anti-normanists. But I admit that the normanist camp lacks nuance. I tend to believe that the ruling classes were Baltic and Finnic ethnicities from Latvian, Estonian and Finnish tribes. Not always Swedish. As if it was a solely Swedish phenomenon, Germanic loanwords would be everywhere. I acknowledge that we already see Swedish loanwords, but there's a good plenty of loanwords from Uralic and Baltic languages. So I follow a multifaceted Normanist camp. Relating solely to the concept of the Germanic varangian ignores the attested Baltic and Finnic Vikings that were active even 3 centuries after the Viking age ended in 1066 At this point if some of the Vikings were Greek, Turkic or Jewish mercenaries I wouldn't be surprised. The Rus aristocracy was tied to a lot of cities. But this is conjecture I didnt necessarily citate reasons or evidence, just beliefs. Example Rurik has a Finnish Cognate.
So, the conclusion is that the Scandinavian influence was certainly present, but not to the extent that the Normanists try to present. There is no evidence for Rurik as to whether he existed at all, but for Jaroslav, who is supposed to be his descendant, we know that he was of Slavic origin on the paternal line based on genetic evidence (interestingly, haplogroup I2a, dominant among southern Slavs). Germano-Scandinavian finds are often found, but exclusively within existing Slavic (with them, Germano- Slavic) settlements, which means that it was a matter of coexistence, not a hierarchical relationship. In conclusion, we can say that the Scandinavians certainly participated in the formation of Kievan Rus, and were even an important part of it, but that they "founded the state" is an exaggeration.
"As for the Rus, they live on an island … that takes three days to walk round and is covered with thick undergrowth and forests; … They harry the Slavs, using ships to reach them; they carry them off as slaves and … sell them. They have no fields but simply live on what they get from the Slav's lands … When a son is born, the father will go up to the newborn baby, sword in hand; throwing it down, he says, 'I shall not leave you with any property: You have only what you can provide with this weapon.'" - Ahmad ibn Rustah, on the Rus
@@John-un3lj Ok, so, of all the things mentioned in the video that the average Jo(hn) decided to comment on, we now also have the testimony of a certain Ahmad Ibn Rustah, a Persian, not to say Muslim travel writer from the 10th century. We all know how credible people with such names are to this day, but why not play that game. So, Ahmad managed to see or experience it in the 10th century. In the same century in which Yaroslav the Wise was born, the oldest king of Kievan Rus whose DNA sample we have(according to the Normanist theory, a direct male successor of the legendary, literally mythical, Rurik) and who was genetically proven to be of Slavic origin (I2a haplogroup, I would suggest you watch the video you are commenting on ). If you don't recognize at least a small loss of logic in these two pieces of information (the fact that the king of Kievan Rus was Slavic through the male line and those trumpeting of a Persian travel writer who probably wasn't anywhere but heard it or made it up), then I'll have to suspect that you're even a below-average Jo(hn). On the other hand, let me treat you with the text of a Jewish travel writer, also from the 10th century(for some reason, to this day, Jews seem more credible ): Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th-century Sephardic Jewish traveler): "(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not for their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)" So who is right, Abraham or Ahmed? ...from the sea to the sea Slavia will be free. 😄 Actually, it is. So, at least from 10 centuries until today, Slavs live from the Mediterranean to the Baltic(we're going to assume that Abraham messed up with the North Sea(ocean, whatever), because if he didn't, it would be too much for the souls of all the average Johns to deal with). That's half of Europe, John. And you can add half of Asia as well. More than 300 million people, John. And officially, they started from the swampy and forested areas south of the Baltic Sea, a territory barely bigger than today's Belarus. Not bad for the slaves of today's feminized, but once dangerous Vikings.
Well, because he most likely saw either Scandinavians or Slavs in their clothes. Which let's be honest had no big differences except for the little things that not every Arab is likely to know at that time
About the controversy, if you check who Ruriks father was, Godoslav of the Obotrites tride located in modern day Germany - in the past slavic area - you really can be sure they were of slavic origin. A contemporary example would be if Zlatan Ibrahimovic became president of Bosnia & Herzegovina.
I'd like to draw attention to the fact that there were no Russia, Ukraine and Belorus in the beginning it was Rus, a totally different polity which language doesn't even exist anymore. The history of Rus has an unpredictable BEGINNING.)
The haplogroup of the Rurikid dynasty was N so they were of Finnic origin. Probably vikingized Finn’s went south and conquered Slavs. This video is very informative! Just wanted to throw out that something interesting can be deduced by some of the genetic studies, I am no expert of course.
@@nara808N haplogroup found in Rurikids is not just finnic. N is an ancient haplogroup that hunter and gathered people in Scandinavia before the arrival of Yamnaya and Anatolian farmers. The n haplogroup found in the Rurikids is exclusively found in the Uppland region or a majority of bearers were Swedes. And found in Swedish finns. It is a Germanic branch of N. If you read the papers.
In the 2-sided current debate about who the "Rus" were.......both sides are wrong. Both sides project today's politics backwards, and manage to completely ignore the actual groups who lived in the area then, and their geo-economic-politics and religion. Iranian diaspora after Islamic conquest of Zoroastrian Iran launched several groups across the Pontic Steppes as displaced refugees, including Croats, Serbs, and Lyakhs, as well as Antes and Alani. Sambatas/Kiev became a nucleus for some of these transplanted tribes to re-establish themselves. The links are many and transparent. The Baltic boat-boys were fringe players. We can say they came to Staraya Ladoga with regular visits for trade, or for hire, but the strings were pulled by others.@@sportsfisher9677
Really interesting video. Thank you. Also, I love the paintings you use in the video? Can you source them as well, like maybe give the title of the painting and artist?
Pretty good id say. Its interesting how you however start with very "recent" sources. There is plenty of proof from the era of "viking" high culture to support the origins of the names... Trade was carried out with Götar and Svear all throughout germany for millennia before the "viking" age exploded across the continent. You have written records from both frankish explorers that drew maps of the swedish coastline before the vikings began their famous raiding. There are germanic monks that tried to spread the word of jesus into the scandinavian lands that wrote about it. As recently as a few years ago a massgrave was unearthed on Öland where christians had been murdered and ritually buried more than a 1000 years ago. So that there should be no sources for the people of middle sweden being refered to as Rus for a long, long time.... The word Ruotsi or its proto-estonian counterpart (which it comes from) does not mean Swede. it means "from rodan". Rodan being a region currently called Roslagen. The name rus as a reference to people living in what is today sweden exists way back during the copper trade with germanic tribes and its earlies mention is over 2000 years old and is on a written statement from the roman emperor. For over a 1000 years various Suione groups made safe the routes to the rich countries of Särkland. There is no refuting that. Combine that with the fact that "assuming" identity of anyone or anything in an era when people where for obvious reasons alot more closely related from some regions. It is also down to the line far to many people draw between RUS and Slav. The insistance on them somehow absolutely being the same. They can exist parallel as well as be the same and have nothing to do with one and other at the same time. Nationalism always clouds these things since people often start trying to find evidence from their point of view. If Rurik was in fact a full blooded Suion a decendent from there or having no roots from there whatsoever is unimportant to the matter. The fact remains that all throughout the various river areas in belarus/ukraine/russia there are alot of towns with Swedish names. There is enough old nobility around form them days to count their lines backwards to scandinavian decent. DNA does not lie. On the other end if you read a russian history book. Varangians are not scandinavians at all. The rus has nothing to do with scandinavia and russia as a nation has been around for a couple of centuries, apparently in secret, before anyone else even heard about it. Allegedly our eastern cousins also have some very special origins out on the tundra. For what reason that crap is taught to anyone i can not understand. Have a gander at some of the comments below that are as far removed from reality as a flerfers claims. They usually also describe scandinavians as unwashed, malnourished, stunted and comcially inept and stupid. The viking raids was infact done by someone else entirely and they had to be collected from scandinavia to be used as slaves as cannonfodder in various wars (thus explaining why there would be obvious traces of them through rus lands)
@@balticempire7244 If im not mistaken its form the book "shadow of rome" where the cultural influence the svear and götar brought with them back from various trading expeditions with the roman empire. (If not its worth reading anyhow) How it affected futhark and other things. If not its probably from the "norse high culture" article series. Its a set of articles written on the topic of the trade the svear and götar conducted as early as 2500 BC with various places around europe. (earlier still according to some). There is another book on the topic of the earlier trade, expansion and actual locations throughout what is belarus/ukraine/russia and beyond today that can be directly linked to Sweden through archeological finds, anthroplogy/dna and writings by monks/early germanic lords and frank/frisian explorer/adventurers from what is the early iron age for Sweden. (high culture era) Its called something like "the heart of all vikingdom.
You will have to provide the names of authors or links to these works because a preliminary search of your provided titles on several engines has sadly not rendered any results.
@@balticempire7244 Kent Andersson and Stig Enström. Ill have to get back to you about the article series and the digs. (currently between homes and my library is packed up)
"...anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their ass." Okay, but nearly every comment on a TH-cam video amounts to people talking out of their ass! 😂
Indirectly: a bunch after the Rus is known to have begun describe expiditions and individual trips into Eastern European rivers for trading or fighting, or using the rivers there to reach the Black Sea and get down to Greece. Issue is it could describe Norse members of the Rus moving about, or Norsemen setting it up, or them going there after the fact or be completely coincidental to the early Slavic polities forming
the runestones date to the 11th century which is way after the foundation of Rus, nor is the word "Rus" ever used in any Scandinavian texts, where the region is typically called Garthariki
Kievan-Rus was founded, or developed by the East-Slavic tribes, while the Scandinavians were invited at later period, as a compromise, to rebuild unity between those tribes, and it's foolish to believe that a tribalistic, Slavic state was founded by even more primitive, Germanic people.
The Swedish Vikings were a ruling class. They did not displace the native people who always remained in numbers. The trade networks and Rus kingdoms shaped the area forever. Russia has historically put heavy bias toward Slavic origin stories, but Viking era influence is very much part of their history. Rus is pre-Russian history and is part of the Viking era influence across Europe, and even across the Atlantic ocean. Archaeological, Historical, and genetic research is clear about this. Many fully integrated into the new regions they invaded/explored, and much like how the Normans became part of Francia when in fact they were of Nordic origin. Stop trying the delete the impact of the Viking era. Russia wasn't Russia until hundreds of years later.
Before making assumptions, learn the russian language. The word for water, more specifically DEW, is rossa( origin would be ros) Ros simlply means water. Also look at river names, some mean river, some mean deep, some mean harbor (for trading)
If Ros' means water, what Chud', Ves', Sum', Vod', Erz', and others mean ? Do you see the "pattern" ? Seems like Ros' is just how East slav ppl called some northern group/tribe of ppl similarly how they called other finno-ugric tribes
The whole of europe & russia were dominated by scandinavians/north germans after the western roman empire. juts, danes, goths, franks, saxons, suebi, etc.
@@zipperpillow The Suebi were from Sweden according to some one from max planck institute. Slavs were ruled over by Scandinavians also. I'm not Scandinavian or German either.
No, it is the opposite. Findings shows that the Viking-ships are not from Scandinavia but from central russia. Findings that are 1500 years older than the vikings.
"Findings that are 1500 years older than the vikings." If so, those people who made those were not Slavs, as they came to the modern Russia onwards from 600s. Prior to that, many parts of Russia were settled by Finnic and Finno-Ugric people.
Perun and Volos had equivalents in Thor and Odin - much more likely that the pagan tribes recognized this and used the names for each others gods on others lands, whilst thinking of their own similar god. Thus neither neglecting their own gods nor disrespecting other tribes they may have traded with
These were not equivalents. They are the same gods. Even Zeus is Odin. Because all Indo-Europeans have the same gods and because of the change in language they sound different. Another thing is that depending on the region, the primacy of god changed
The earliest archaeological evidence of settlement in Novgorod begins only around 940-950. AD.. long after the official date of Rurik's arrival in 862. so either he was in another place, or this story is just a legend ..
Modern Novgorod, yes, but the original settlement was located a few miles south-east closer to Lake Ilmen. It is usually called Rurik's stronghold today(Riurikovo Gorodishche) but is believed by historians to be the original Novgorod. It was common during the widespread urbanisation of the 10th century to move old market settlements to nearby, more favorable positions.
@@balticempire7244 Yes, the Rurik's Gorodische archaeologically corresponds to 862 AD.. but the problem is.. it is really small.. the original Settlement during the time of Rurik was practically a small wooden fortress and several houses.. the total area is about 1.5 football fields, not too impressive for a Prince's residence who came to Rule over great territory and several local tribes .. and in general the territory was sparsely populated.. unlike the land of the Polans in the south. Also.. we know nothing about the actions of Rurik between 862-879. What did he do for almost 20 years after arriving in Novgorod or somewhere else?
The Viking Age (793-1066 CE) was the period Vikings undertook large-scale raiding, colonising, conquest, and trading throughout Europe and even reached North America. No doubt before that the river system between the Baltic and the Black Sea facilitated movement and the Vikings were not shy people. As the video describes Archaeologic sources indicate that Scandanavian including Finnish people travelled along these water ways. The physical size of this territory and the overall flatness of the terrain (no sharp borders) means that many people of different ethnicities mixed , traded and of course , fought with each other over a long period of time so the result must have been a very patchwork but vast region of mixed ethnicities. Debates on the origin of "Rus" will be the work of Archaeologists and Historians for ever.
I have no expertise or specific knowledge on the topic, but it seems whenever complex historic processes are pressed into modern nation state and especially nation state origin stories, the result is de-coupled from any historic facts. Nobody involved in these historic events was motivated by modern nationalist concepts. Thanks for shedding some light on some of the known fatlets.
Great video. The topic is highly political for some reason and it shouldn't be. The idea of a Germanic vs Slavic founding of the Rus in anachronistic at it's core. The vikings didn't sea themselves as spreading their "superior" (both were barbaric being honest) Germanic ways to the inferior slavs. They wanted to control rich trade networks to bring themselves wealth. Its also extremely unlikely that they stayed purely Norse as well. They definitely intermingled with the local slavic population creating a hybrid culture of the two. The eastern slavs themselves didn't have a concept of a united slavic state either. They were more loyal to their local tribes and chiefs. Furthermore the influence of norse culture on the Rus is miniscule in comparison to the cultural influence of the Romans.
yeah, very true, in terms of identity, modern Swedes have next to nothing to do with Viking Age Svear, nor do modern Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians etc have much in common with the Old Rus'
Is there any chance that you might go further back than this in the future, Baltic Empire? After all, the West and East Goths had quite a great impact on it all and of course the great migration with the hunnic invasion
is there a reliable source for "gospodin" = "húsbóndi"? sounds highly implausible to me, since the root "gospod-" is all over the place in Slavic languages (including Western ones). e.g. "Hospodin" means "Lord" in Czech when referring to God, is that also Scandinavians' fault?
No, there isn't, that's a speculation. The most probable ethymology of Gospodin/Gospodar: "Most likely, related to Latin "hospes" (hospitable friend, host; a guest, a stranger) and comes from Indo-European "*ghosti-pot-s", in which the first component is "*ghostis" (guest), which has lost the -ti- within the word, as often happens in words of the title type; The second component is Indo-European "*pot(i)s" (lord, ruler) (compare to related Lithuanian "pàts" (himself; man), Latin "potis" (mighty), Ancient Indian "pátiḥ" (lord, husband), which often acts as the second component of compound words, Greek "δεσ-πότησ" (master, lord, lit. "lord of the house"), Lithuanian "viẽš=pat(i)s" (lord). The original meaning, therefore, should have been "master of the guests", which was connected with the ancient custom, according to which the guests enjoyed the protection and care of the master of the house, like other members of his family."
The Vikings even went to war with the Roman Empire (Constantinopel). Roman historians wrote abt that. They had long lasting trade relations with Constantinopel.
Sounds like the legend is somewhat partly true. Not surprising as Germanic warriors were a major export of Germanic regions in late antiquity and early middle ages.
Sets and Yelkups in Siberia are the extant Scandinavian genetic line who migrated west but also east where the land bridge was disconnected >15kyr so Amerindian too I think runic was still in use and talk about sumerian lettering. Encarta documents Rurik and Rus. Lithuanian empire later dominant. Curonian or baltic viking is documented on TH-cam as fearsome even amongst Scandinavians.
Post-script additions:
- Dorestad in Southern Frisia, which Hrörekur received control over, appears to have had trade contacts with Staraya Ladoga/Aldeigjuborg, a Norse-dominated emporium on Lake Ladoga in Northern Russia. Perhaps there was a connection, or simply a coincidence?
- I read a paper recently which argued for Slavic Rus migration into Scandinavia during the Viking Age as testified by genetic research, there's a lack of Slavic archaeological findings in the region from this period however so it's uncertain.
- Runestones are from the 11th century whereas this video concerns the founding of Rus in the 9th or early 10th century.
- 'Rus' could possibly stem from the Old Turkic 'Urus'(to fight one self), possibly related to the Chuvash "virash" and Hungarian "orosz"(both meaning 'Russian'). The early Rus interacted heavily with the Turks and it was primarily through this contact that the Muslim sources described them. I will talk about this more in the video on the Rus Khanate.
- Some people have commented that Gospodin most likely doesn't have ON but either Latin or Indo-European roots and appears in multiple Slavic languages.
You did good with the material there is. Like early Islam being Norse was likely more an idea of power than necessarily a genetically bund.
Slavic people were brought to Scandinavia as Slaves during that period.
I want to ask, is the modern Russian people Slavic and descendants of the Rus? I heard from Ukrainian and some Polish that Russian aren’t Rus or even Slavic. They said that the Russian appropriate the name from the Ukrainian.
they all drink vodka and eat potatoes, I don't see the difference
I think there is a connenction and not just a coincidence. Among others the Danes, at this point including the Jutes and Angles of Jutland, had many connections to the Frisians, again related to the Sxons, Angles and Jutes. The seafaring parts of Northern Europe all seem to have had many connections. Just as Slavic people would participate in Viking and Nordic operations in the West, Frisians could likely have had their part in what went on in the East.
An old German saying:
“I don’t want all the land. Just the land that touches mine.”
An ever expanding philosophy
Well given the quality of Ukrainians...
I love what you did with the Chuds there 😂
It's amazing, everyone talks about them now but they were largely ignored in history until recently
They were Chads
Holy cow! Thank you for representing both sides of this seemingly very complex subject in a way which came off as neutral. Since I'm quite unfamiliar with it, it's not super easy to follow along. Maybe - in about 20-30 years - I'll dive into the newest literature, with hopes of more concrete evidences being established by then. Until then, with so many theories and endless speculation, videos such as yours will do. I'll probably have to re-watch it at another time to fully grasp it. Very well done.
I love learning kNew Slavic history. It's fascinating to realize how it influences many cultures.🕵️
this is not early Slavic history.
As is constantly repeated in these types of repeated vid fancies @ ancient Slavia
It Is ALL Speculation and Assumption via West morons ego tripping.
This is fairy story for imbecile adults and immature grown ups in the West dead zone.
So any alt hist make believe can turn these ego boosting dreams into nightmares which are also dreams.
However it is all true. Fact. Believe it as gospel. Three Ubermensche cartoon Bros did it all by themselves. [Trust those Germanics ! Right ? lol]
Never mind it is all counter intuitive and the numbers don't stack up.
It is what it is. Children believe anything. It's OK.
I always thought 'rus' meant 'rower' as in one who rows. Scandinavian adventurers looking for opportunity would travel along the rivers, Volga & Don for example.
Yes, Sweden is still called Ruotsi in both Finnish and Estonian. "The men who rows". Mainly from Roslagen in eastern Sweden. They are the original Rus.
The river rowers became merchants and hustlers of the rivers, eventually being paid for safe passage or even as taxi. A renewable resource to replace raiding.
At the end of their times, they were apparently having a culture war within the Rus. Usual suspect, its actually kazars and late east Rome got the Rus to move on territories previously Finland.
It would start a retaliation from Sweden after the turn of the first millennium ad and start a series of conflicts. It was similar to one sibling slaying the mother of the family, and the head son had to react. Rus from around Moscow, there are still Nordic cousins there.
All of the previous is pieced together from folk records in the areas.
@@Fgwayinteresting
Probably amongst the Scandinavians. My grandparents were Slavs from Macedonian region (NOT Greeks) and “Rus” means “Blonde or Blondes”. Rus raiders did invade this region and also were hired as Byzantium guards/soldiers. My guess is, because of their fair complexion the word evolved to generalise all blonde people.
@@Fgwaywhite Slavic Russians are most certainly “Nordic” in appearance and have absolutely nothing in common with the other Turkic tribes situated nearby.
Turkic and Nordic (Slavic in this case) folks have always been great adversaries in East Europe.
Very interesting topic. In modern Russian historiography there is no doubt that origins of our state formation begins from some Scandinavian rulers. Some popular Eastern Slavic names also have Scandinavian/German roots: Igor = Yngwarr, Vladimir = Waldemar, Olga = Helga. All three names originate from Viking Princes that ruled Slavic tribes.
So names of leaders of current conflict 800-900 years ago would be Waldemar Putin and Waldemar Zelenskyy :D
What do you mean Vladimir has a Germanic root.
Vladi- he rules
Mir- with peace/the world
🤔
Even in Polish we have a traditional name Włodzimierz which is a direct translation of Vladimir and we were not started by Scandinavian rulers 🤔
@@askarufus7939Germanic and Slavic developed very close in space and time. To argue about differences is to ignore what we have in common
@@askarufus7939 you do understand that Poland itself Has germanic roots. Not German as in the the modern nation but germanic as in the peoples originating in the baltic region of Europe
Not true , if we talking about Slavs assimilating eastern Germanic tribes then yes that could result of mixing Germanic names, anyway if you talk of Poland having Germanic origin is stupid as the state was created due to christianization and uniting lechitic tribe's.@@edwalmsley1401
@@edwalmsley1401 I don't know, genetically it might be so, but it doesn't change the fact that lingusitically none of today's germanic languages have "vlad" associated word (or not that I know of) while slavic languages have it in whole range.
Władczy- bossy
Włodarz- a headmaster
Władca- a ruler
Władza- power
Władać- to rule
Etc.
It seems to be a strong argument for the name Vladimir not to be called 'of Germanic origin'.
One feature of this study that some commenters are mentioning but that is only implied in the video: the Scandinavians tended to pick up the culture of the lands they went to and even conquered. An example of this cultural assimilation that is well documented is the Normans of northern Francia, who quickly became French speaking. This should make it harder to establish their "founding" of Rus as one could expect that the cultural influence would be mostly onto the Vikings, not the other way around. This openness to adopting other cultures could explain the Slavic gods mentioned in the chronicle. The Varangian guard certainly documents the extensive travels of Scandinavians through the rivers of Eastern Europe on their way to Miklegard, Constantinople. They undoubtedly were visiting the rulers of the Rus. Look at the life of Harald Hadrada. It would seem that the Slavs of Rus and the Scandinavians got along well, had some sort of partnership.
I loved the video I tend to lean more towards the pro-Norman stance but I wanted to make a quick note for the paternal haplogroups of Vsevolod, Sviatoslav, and Izyaslav at 22:41. The haplogroup of Vsevolod of N1c is not usually typical of Scandinavia, but rather of the Finno-Ugric regions of North Eastern Europe. It is not unknown to Northern Sweden or Norway, but it is far more common in the Saami in the present nation of Norway and Sweden than it is to the ethnic Nords and Swedes. For evidence on the pro-Norman side, I think the argument for N1c being Scandinavian cannot really hold its weight for being evidence of Norse rule of the Rus, but genetically speaking it makes a stronger case for the Finno-Ugric and there is evidence of them being in the early Rus settlements in the north as you stated. It is also commonly stated that Yaroslav the wise had the haplogroup of N1c, so I am confused on why his sons wouldn't also have that lineage.
With I2a for the pro-Slav argument, I2a is more commonly associated with the southern Slavs than it is to the northern and eastern Slavs. In the Kiev region it is found at around a 10-15%, but I2a is more associated with the people living in the Balkans prior to the Slavic migration into the region in the 6th century and later assimilated into the region.
Yaroslav's bones disappeared. his haplogroup is unknown.
I'm fairly sure the Rurikid N1c was mainly L550, which is commonly called a Finnic line, as Sami diverged earlier.
Nice, as always, we can never be sure of anything regarding old history... almost all "evidence" can be interpreted in different ways and time convelute´s everything.
cheers
I read the Primary Chronicle, and was struck by the account of the Byzantine-Rus agreement around 944. It was a historical meeting that influenced the relationship between Rus and Byzants for hundreds of years. I had ChatGPT summarize the Rus envoys based on the original text and almost all were from Sweden, Norway or Denmark:
The envoys involved in the Rus'-Byzantine Treaty of 941-944 came from various parts of Europe and Scandinavia.
Rus' envoys:
Ivar: Probably from Sweden.
Vefast: Possibly from Denmark.
Isgaut: Could have come from Denmark or Sweden.
Slothi: Possibly from Sweden.
Oleif: Probably from Norway.
Kanitzar: Likely from Kievan Rus'.
Sigbjorn: Possibly from Denmark.
Freystein: Possibly from Denmark or Sweden.
Leif: Probably from Iceland.
Grim: Possibly from Sweden.
Freystein: Possibly from Norway.
Kari: Probably from Norway.
Karlsefni: Possibly from Norway.
Hegri: Could have come from Denmark or Sweden.
Voist: Possibly from Denmark or Sweden.
Eistr: Could have come from Denmark or Sweden.
Freystein: Possibly from Denmark or Sweden.
Yatving: Probably from the Yatvingians, a Baltic tribe.
Sigfrid: Possibly from Sweden.
Kill: Likely from Norway.
Steggi: Possibly from Sweden or Norway.
Sverki: Probably from Sweden.
Hallvarth: Possibly from Norway.
Frothi: Possibly from Denmark.
Munthor: Possibly from Denmark or Norway.
Byzantine envoys:
Nikephoros II Phocas: Emperor of the Byzantine Empire (963-969).
Leon VI the Wise: Emperor of the Byzantine Empire (886-912).
Michael: Patriarch of Constantinople (944-960).
Leo: A Byzantine nobleman who served as a translator for the negotiations.
I find this pretty striking. This part reads like a minutes of a meeting and is surely based on older sources. Even today these names are easily recognizable as Nordic names. Surely this is strong evidence for the Normanic school regarding the origin of Rus? At least one girl as well. I'm proud. Any comments?
You need to mention that the names of the Rus/Rurikids are listed separately from the Varangian traders to whom the treaties they've signed had pertained. This is a very important detail, The Rus/Rurikids and the Varangians are two separate peoples, treated so by the majority of the Primary Chronicle, barring the Legend of the Invitation, the Rus-Roman treaties in question, and the Germanic Sagas.
@@numenoreaneternity6682 I don't claim to be an expert. Here is a relevant text:
"We are the envoys from the Russian nation: Ivar, envoy of Igor',
Great Prince of Rus', and the general envoys as follows: Vefast representing
Svyatoslav, son of Igor'; Isgaut for the Princess Olga; Slothi
for Igor', nephew of Igor'; Oleif for Vladislav; Kanitzar for Predslava;
Sigbjorn for Svanhild, wife of Oleif; Freystein for Thorth; Leif for
Arfast; Grim for Sverki; Freystein for Haakon, nephew of Igor'; Kari
for Stoething; Karlsefni for Thorth; Hegri for Efling; Voist for
Voik; Eistr for Amund; (47) Freystein for Bjorn; Yatving for Gunnar;
Sigfrid for Halfdan; Kill for Klakki; Steggi for Jotun; Sverki;
Hallvarth for Guthi; Frothi for Throand; Munthor for Ut; the
merchants Authun, Authulf, Ingivald, Oleif, Frutan, Gamal, Kussi,
Heming, Thorfrid, Thorstein, Bruni, Hroald, Gunnfast, Freystein,
Ingjald, Thorbjorn, Manni, Hroald, Svein, Styr, Halfdan, Tirr, Askbrand,
Visleif, Sveinki Borich: sent by Igor', Great Prince of Rus', and
from each prince and all the people of the land of Rus', by whom is ordained the renewal of the former peace to the confusion of the devil,
who hates peace and loves discord, and to the establishment of concord
between Greeks and Russes for many years to come."
It very clearly states that it is an agreement between Byzantium (Greeks) and the Rus. What do you have in mind?
@@johnr.sageng3475 I've read them, but well done for providing them, the point isn't that the agreement isn't between Russia/Rus and the Romans, the points are the following:
1. All of the treaties list the Rurikids/Rus and the Varangian traders in question as two separate peoples/groups when the context is origin-based. The Varangians were traders and swords for hire utilized by the Rurikids/Rus - who, due to being hereditary, tribal nobility who had traditionally subsided from ruling lands and warfare, refused to perform crafts, therefore requiring middlemen for this vital role.
2. The treaties also list the Varangians as "being of the nation of the Rus" only when their "stately and national" affiliation is being cited (as in, being part of the Rus state, therefore Rus, while not being ethnically Rus).
@@numenoreaneternity6682 Thanks! I agree of course that the Varangians are a different group, since it is a name for various Norse traders and warriors over the centuries, and not a political entity. I presume, though, that the early Rus ruling class stemmed from some of the Varangians? Also that the Rus treaty applied to some of the Varangians that were under Rus political control at the time?
I don't see the point about crafts and middlemen?
I'm pretty sure that this this text is entirely authentic. It is like reading an email from 945, and you get face to face with concrete individuals in a social and political context.
My amateur reading/speculation: These are the details of a second meeting for a treaty that was already established, and which fell apart because of conflicts. The initiators made sure that everyone in power for Rus was represented and that the details were written down. The first that are mentioned seem to those close in power to The Great Prince Oleg (Helge). The presumed Norse ruler has evidently married a Slavic woman, since their son has a Slavic name. His personal envoy is Norse. His brother/sister has a son which has a Norse name (Hallvard), so he/she is probably Norse. The others are probably family and political strongmen close to the prince, most with Norse names. Most of the people in power are Nordic, but with a Slavic and a Magyar name, which makes entirely sense. Later on come the traders, all Norse: "Authun, Authulf, Ingivald, Oleif, Frutan, Gamal, Kussi,
Heming, Thorfrid, Thorstein, Bruni, Hroald, Gunnfast, Freystein,
Ingjald, Thorbjorn, Manni, Hroald, Svein, Styr, Halfdan, Tirr, Askbrand,
Visleif, Sveinki". I assume these would be Varangians.
My point is that this text brings us face to face with the rulers of Rus in 945, and they are overwhelmingly Norse. It has the feeling of reading names from contemporary phone book in the Nordic countries.
@@johnr.sageng3475 The "people" in power are the immediate Rurikid/Rus princes who ratified the treaty (Oleg, Igor, and Vladimir, etc) and their attested relatives, like Vladislav and Predslava Svyatoslav, Olga, and the other Igor, not the Varangian traders and diplomats/trade envoys employed by them, or presumed relatives, what people need to understand is that pre-Yaroslav Rurikids were a very small family, and only attested relatives, like the aforementioned Vladislav and Predslava, can be denoted as their immediate relatives, whereas the men and women with Norse names, while also being listed separately from the Varangians, and denoted as elites, are also not denoted as being immediately related to the Rurikid princes in the same manner as Vladislav, the other Igor, Olga, Svyatoslav, and Predslava are - this detail is paramount.
The Rurikids in question are listed separately from the aforementioned traders and diplomats/trade envoys based on ethnic origin, the Rurikid/Rus being the Slavs/Rus, and the Varangians being Norsemen. This is attested in the Primary Chronicle, page 63: "But the Slavs and the Russes are one people, for it is because of the Varangians that the latter became known as Rus', though originally they were Slavs. While some Slavs were termed Polyanians, their speech was still Slavic, for they were known as Polyanians (29) because they lived in the fields", and in the fact that the Rus/Rurikid princes, before converting to Christianity, swore exclusively by Perun and Veles, and have never instituted Danelaw-like/Norse-like laws and legal systems in their states - a total exception to all attested Norse dynasties.
"about crafts and middlemen"- tribal, and even feudal nobility/dynasties didn't practice trades, like trading (including trade envoys), blacksmithing, and tutoring (the Rurikids hired Varangian tutors as Dobrynya), as a ruling/noble dynasty, they only practiced warfare and governance.
Regarding the origin of the names of the first three Rurikids, it is merely a premise that the names are originally of Norse origin, the basis for that premise being the Normanist understanding of the Norse origin of the Rurikids and grass-bare phonetic similarities, but the problem lies in the following:
1. The names in question appear SOLELY among Slavs and are absent among Germanic people, in modern and historical contexts, the proposed premise ignores vital Slavic sound transformations that simply cannot rationalize the transformation from "Helgi" to Oleg, and "Invgar" to Igor, not to mention that Oleg was a seer of the Slavic, not Germanic religion.
2. In the case of Rurik, The 19th-century historian Gedeonov suggested that Rurik is not his given name, but the generic nickname Rerek, which was worn by all representatives of the ruling dynasty of the Obodrites. The assumption was substantiated by reference to the Scandinavian sagas, where allegedly the skald Guthorm Sindri calls the Wendish Slavs “falcons”. The quoted passage refers to the saga of Hakon the Good from the "Earth Circle" by Snorri Sturluson. Guthorm Sindri speaks of “falcon distance" In the context of the war in the 2nd half of the 10th century, King Hakon with the Vikings -" both Danes and the Wends". In the Scandinavian sagas, the Wends (Pomeranian Slavs) began to engage in great pirates from the 10th century, in earlier times, sources record only their land-born campaigns. Subsequently, the author of "The Lay of Igor's Host" calls the adults of Rurik falcons and the prince's falcons, but this epithet has been applied since ancient times to people of noble origin. There's also the possibility that Rurik is just a transliteration of the name of the former port city of Reric - the original Wagrian seat of power.
A+ ... thumbs up ... subscribed. What a fabulous and stellar presentation.
8:26 I think of Löddeköpinge in Scania when I hear the ludhaniyah.
Edit:
Also, when I then start to look on a map, there's the little place called Örtofta upstream from Löddeköpinge, that I interpret as maybe could be Artha? It's quite fun to speculate like this. All I can find about the place is that Örtofta does have an old Church from the 11th century.
On Löddeköpinge I can read that it was a harbor and a trading hub during the Viking ages, one of the greatest in Scandinavia at the time, so in that regard it could add up.
As “Lödde-köpinge” means “Lödde-marketplace” because many place names in Sweden does end with “köping” that means marketplace, I think that back in the day the place name could have been just simply “Lödde” perhaps?
Now I feel like I have done some good old “Rudbeckisering” haha 😅
Gospodin is NOT a borrowed form of husbondi. If it is, why does the word "gospodin" exist in Macedonian, Croatian and other Slavic languages whose speakers are far from Scandinavia? If you take the word without its typical Slavic suffix -in, "gospod" it would be a word existing in most Slavic languages.
It is unbelievable how difficult, hard and impossible for them is to say a word Finn.
Oh tell me about it
Who are "them" ?
@@TheBobVova low I.Q. zombies who make propaganda videos?
@@TheBobVova We all know who they are. The scheming, greedy, lying tribe that we are not allowed to criticize.
I am talking of course about the Swedes and their global conspiracy against us Finns. They are trying to hide the truth that Rurik, Jesus and the Olmecs were all Finns.
at that time Finns were still a primitive tribe, the Scandinavians had much more mobility around the Baltic.
This video is amazing! Born and raised in Sweden, I've never really questioned it until not long ago since I few details didn't sit right with me.
I also know how excessive the Germanic propaganda from the 19th century is still alive and well in he west, especially in the English-speaking world which poses a problem since most information online is in English. Things sinply have gone uncorrected due to the cold war and now no one seems to care in the west.
I am pretty interested in history in general and specially in Scandinavian history since i am half Norwegian and half Icelandic.
For this reason i often think many historical channels is a lot of bs either because they have very little knowledge and is all over the place without knowing much about anything, or simply is populists.
I have pressed subscribe on this channel already after 5 minutes because already after so short time it is clear that you are more balanced.
Personally from what i have read, i do not think the Vikings ruled in the east, but i am pretty sure they had some influence in certain things, just like the Slavic people had influence on certain things here.
For example it was not uncommon among highborn Vikings to send their sons to east to learn about leadership there from leaders they had a good relationship with there.
As i have understood it from reading between the lines when i have read a lot of Viking sagas, they kind of saw traveling in the same way as we see education, of course as a bonus it could also earn them both honour and make them rich.
When it comes to the word Rus, you know much more about it then i do, but from all i have read, my mind always goes to Kiev when i hear the word, and next to the inter-connection between the ruling class there and highborn Vikings.(I am probably coloured by being Scandinavian in this view..)
One thing i know for sure, is that the Vikings was very aware of the importance of getting married in to the right families to get influence in the area they wanted to have influence in.
This we see again and again both in very local scale between families in a small areas, and on a bigger scale from each country to all of Scandinavia.
Typically in the sagas when someone wanted to marry someone, the first thing they wanted to know was what family they came from, and that seems to be the most important part of the decision.
When it comes to religion and different names, my theory is that some times they thought of them as the same Gods, but with different local names, but in their mind the local name was not so important as what God it was, for example the God of war, the God of fertility and so on. So when they heard of a new God, they would probably ask what he / she was the God for, and if they said War, they would think about it as a local name for Freia or Odin, that also was Gods of other things..
Anyway, this was a interesting video and i look forward to go through your channel whenever i get time. 🙂
please enjoy
That there are no records of Ros in Sweden at that early time is logical, as there are hardly any written records from Scandinavia at that time. The Swedes were mostly illiterate and pagan, so there are no records. However, the coastal region just north of Stockholm has been known as Roslagen for as long as we know, and a person from that area is referred to as a Rospigg. As mentioned in the video, this part of Sweden has always had extensive contacts with Finland, and the Finnish name Routsi for Sweden is generally considered to originate from this. Now, Roslagen early on became part of the area controlled by the Svear, the group whose name also constitutes the origin of the name for Sweden. Thus by the time we reach the literate Middle Ages they were lumped together with this and rarely mentioned as a separate group.
Being that this group, the Ros or Rus, always have been linked to Finland, it is only logical that they would try to expand into what is now Russia and Ukraine, and as they were traders and warriors, specifically try to control the waterways to the Black Sea. I would assume they were always a minority in these areas, but that they controlled it militarily. Gradually they merged with the majority population, but way into the at least the 12th century there was intermarrying between the Swedish and the Rus royal families, thus we ended up with a king called Burislev (probably Boleslav).
I just find it very hard to believe that a few Swedes managed to control the Volga militarily. If the Ruriks were Swedish, which the DNA evidence in the video says they're not, then they would most likely just be something alongside of a Russian-Bernadotte.
Saying the Rus were Slavs subjugated under the Nordics is like saying that the Swedes were subjugated under the Celto-Galls when Bernadotter became king of Sweden.
Gustav also has has a Slavic origin but you'll find me hard-pressed to believe every ruler under that name was some sort of Slavic warrior dominating Scandinavia.
The Rus merged in extremely quickly with the local slavic population if they were truly just Scandinavians. Yuroslav the wise is mostly slavic ethnically.
They had runes
I dont know anything about the rus but scandinavians werent illiterate, we actually taught all (free) kids to read.
This is an extremely well made video with some of the best neutral takes I've ever seen, so I just must congratulate you on your great work!
But now I just wish that I had a time machine to find out how this old world worked😂
Yes, I ask for that kind of time machine every year from Santa. Not good enough...yet!
The swedish tribe svear had a group witin the that had the name Ros. Several cities in sweden west of Stockholm used to have the name ros like west ros, east ros and the coast line from Stockholm and following the coast north are even today Roslagen wich means the law of Ros.
The name Roslagen firstly appeared in 1492, before that this province was called Roden.
@@sergii2945 If that is true the question is still why the word Ros. That was used for several towns in the area called Svea had the word Ros in i Svealand is todays Stockholm and the all land around and all land west in the area called Mälar dalen and west of that to Värmland.
In Scotland we have Wester Ross, and Easter Ross. I expect when Russia finishes in Ukraine these two provinces will be annexed into Mother Russia.
@@colinmacdonald5732Perhaps it is from the many wikings that come there.
Presumably you've noticed that the Swedish flag colours are similar to Ukraine's flag
i am a native speaker of serbian and german. a lot of german words have their root in slavic lang. with lots of meaning but otherwise is just a name for some thing in german. eg. odin is supposed to come from old germanic "wodanec".which makes sense in serbian. it means leader and is associated with water probably bc. people were travelling along Rivers that lead them. otherwise i cant find any association in the german lang. and there are endless examples. as you showed, the only true evidence is archeological and tells that they both lived very intertwined with each other. academic history unfortunately is very political and dominated by germans.
Yeah, as a Croat I found the same issue. We (English-speaking internet) is quick to use anything German etymologists and historians "discovered" in the 19th century without questioning it.
I believe archelogical-genetics will give us better answers. I understood how weak the Normanist theory when A. I discovered it was a theory (it is presented as hard fact on e.g. youtube) and B. the genetical data of the current population does not really support some great Scandinavian presence of warriors, merchants and elite-class. Especially since those classes were the ones who had most children back in the day due to wealth.
but there are several Slavish words of Germanic origin, one of them related to Stuhl, written almost the same in Russian, you can see the interaction of this two groups in Eastern Europe.
The city of Novgorod was founded by a union of Slavic, Baltic and Finnish tribes, as a place where they could trade and conduct joint business. In this city, never in its entire history were aristocrats ruled; it was governed by a council of citizens (veche). The Vikings were invited there as partners and military force, but they never ruled there. Novgorod has always been a trading republic, even when it came under the rule of the Moscow Tsar. In the 9th century, an army gathered in Novgorod captured Kyiv, which at that time was a Slavic city in the Khazar Khaganate, a convenient place for gathering caravans before marching across the steppes.
It has been said, wherever a bigger settlement was built with a church. The Slavic language grew,while the people all around talked Finnougrian. So the Scandinavian/Slavic influence came from other lands than what we call Russia/Ukraine/Belarus these days.
I study history, and was taught that the reason why this controversy was so, well, controversial back in the day, and sometimes still is, was because many people who were in favor of this theory pretty much insisted that normans, whoever they were, swedens, norwegians etc, have established and created the Kievan Rus out of nothing, therefore created the Kievan Rus, and slavis culture in general. While the most likely scenario and the idea was that a viking clan came to already established community, either settled or fortified in already existing city, and then were assimilated by the local people in around 2 generations.
But back then in that day people had a hard on for nationalism and justification to spreading their borders, so they were making up bunch of bullshit to have any reason to do this. Germans in that time insisted that because Franks were german tribe when they conquered Gual, just like Angles, Saxons, or Visigoths who conquered Iberian spain in the middle ages, the Germans now have the right to rule over those countires. Brits used to say that since they bring technology and modern medicine, to the rest of the world, the rest of the world has to pay them for all this, while Ottomans still insisted they are inheritors of Roman Empire as well as God's chosen people so they should rule the world.
Origins of Norman theory are quite simple. Empress Catherine the 2nd was German and wanted some kind of great history for her new empire. Accepting that it originated as Golden Horde vassal state wasn't cool to her, and recognising Rus and Kyiv as the sole origin was putting too much of emphasis on its being occupied land, so her historians made up a fancy story with Vikings. It was pure fantasy initially, though later they've forged some sources to back it.
@@RomanKovbasyuk Well, maybe. But they can never claim to have built the pyramids.
@@RomanKovbasyuk ага, а всё найденное на Руси катькины сатрапы специально закопали в Гнёздово, чтоб там откопали тонны варягов.
The age of the latest copy of the ПВЛ is the 12th century. The age of the latest copy of the parallel НПЛ is the 15th century. The year of Catherine the Great's birth is 1729.
@yozhleszy the Primary Chronicle is more of a fairytale, and even then it was allegedly modified for Catherine II (some parts were burned - "years 898-922, 1263-83 and 1288-94 are missing for reasons unknown"🙄)
And anyway, even if it is a source, the parts about early Rurikids have no other confirmation other than PC.
Ukrainian historian Oleksiy Tolochko in 2015 upheld the conclusion reached by his many predecessors that the Chronicle’s contents are more or less fictional. Tolochko argued that some of the tales, like the story of the Rurikid clan's entry into Kiev, were invented "so as to produce a meaningful reconstruction of past events and include these well-known names" in the author's "historical scenario."[69] Tolochko called the Rus Primary Chronicle an outstanding work of literature with an untrustworthy story and concluded that "there is absolutely no reason to continue basing our knowledge of the past on its content."[70]
Paul Bushkovitch (2012) from Yale University writes “the author was serving his rulers, identifying princes and people and leaving historians with a muddle virtually impossible to sort out.”[71] He also mentions that there are discrepancies when overlapping Scandinavian history with the narrative of the Primary Chronicle. For example, “archeological evidence does not fit the legends of the Primary Chronicle” such as: “in Scandinavia itself, there were no sagas of Viking triumphs and wars in Russia to match those recounting the conquest of Iceland and the British Isle’s”. The credibility of the Primary Chronicle should be taken with a grain of salt for its undertone of being a political tool to justify rule.[
22:24 haplogroup N is more common between all uralic people
Impressive amount of information. But I am also impressed by the knowledge presented by various contributors in the discussion.
Interesting. Everytime I google Rurik-dynasty's haplogroup only the N1c1 shows up, not the I2 one.
Venäjä more likely comes from venedi as a name for all slavs, mentioned in roman and greek sources, and not from the western slavic wends. (Though they are of the same origin)
"Gospodin" originated from "Gospod" - word for God, same root as "Gost"- guest. All those words have Bulgarian/ Slavic origins and are not derived from Scandinavian ones.
Nicely said!
Наверно христианское слово.
A very well-made video! I have now watched it four times already, these four days. I like it how you present the varying view points made based on how sparse the evidence is, that leaves room for much legitimate speculation of highly differing viewpoints.
I myself am however biased due to my Swedish descent to lean towards the, here in this video, presented scale end of there indeed being a Norman influence. This because it is a source of pride. Very human indeed. I still can take joy in the great deeds of neighboring peoples such as the Slavs, that also does have a rich, interesting, glorious history as our own in many respects. That our histories are intertwined through the centuries, and even millennia, is something we are together exploring. On the road to knowledge, every view point is valid for consideration. Over time, more and more evidence is being unearthed. These waters are however highly politicized, and therefore muddied by these biases. Something we all have to keep in mind. Being watchful for science, remaining untainted from the sort of corruption that always want to enter there from political influences.
I'm around half slavic, rest is basically German and Baltic. Scandinavian DNA included finnish genetics are around 18%. Non from my German ancestors. So for me it's pretty clear, because it's written in my DNA.
Welcome to Gnezdovo, товарищ, where the Varangians inherited the most.
@@magistradox39 Areas around Baltic sea definitely had commune of people with different origins, be it Finnic, Baltic, Slavic or Scandinavian. I myself am 100% Finnish, but paternally from Latvia or Lithuania(Still Finnic line, though). But even that 100% Finnish ancestry is comprised of Baltic, Scandinavian and Siberian ancestries, as modern Finns are basically mix of those groups.
very well presented, looking forward to more, subbed
I can certainly see the Vikings ending up in that area of europe. When you think that just a hundred years later they were going to France and then into the Mediterranean and Iceland and Greenland and across to the Americas, surely that little hop across the pond to what is now the Baltic countries, Belarus and Ukraine is certainly very plausible.
What always confuses me how the vikings got their boats down the Dnipro to Kyiv? I wish we had a web cam going back then
I never understood what is so controversial about the Northmen being the catalyst for state formation in the Russian Principalities. They were an ethnic minority that formed a political and military elite that was subsumed within 3 generations into the Slavic sea of the Rus. National pride needs to take a backseat to history. Rurik, Igor, and Oleg and Oskyldr (Askold) are all Scandinavian names. Its the same with Transdanubian Bulgaria and the First Bulgarian Empire. The Turkic Bulgars were an ethnic tribal minority that formed the political and military aristocracy for Bulgaria for 3 centuries until they were subsumed by the Slavic majority and ironically enough the military elite of the ethnic Bulgars were totally annihilated by the same Varangian Russians who had been contracted originally to raid northern Bulgaria by the Romans. The Russians thought they could bite the hand that fed it (the Romans) and invaded Bulgaria proper destroying the political capital of the Bulgars at Preslav and Pliska before themselves being annihilated by the Romans in two pitched battles in Thrace. Its after this Russian-Roman War that actually both ethnic Bulgars and ethnic Varangians were wiped out as the political elites of both countries (Bulgaria and Russia) and where the Slavic element predominates thereafter in the late 10th century in the aristocracies of Russia and Bulgaria.
Because in the affects of Germanys war crimes hang over eastern Europe like a haunting cynical slow death. The founding of the rus by a north Germanic group has been used in damaging propaganda to dehumanize slavs and say they need Germanic masters. Ironic when the norsemen didn't even know that they were Germanic and settled extremely quickly everywhere they went like the Danelaw or Normandy
Next they will contest the outsized impact of Baltic Germans in Russian society
Great vid. If this is your normal quality then it’s time to subscribe ❤
Очень качестаенное видео. Спасибо.
Автор в этом видео не уромянул южные территории причерноморья и Приазовья, скифы/сарматы , как они повлияли на этногенез Русов и впоследствии Русских и Украинцев особенно
Very pleasant. Congratulations on the scholarship, and the production!
Long set of rebuttals, divided into two parts:
1. In the Rus-Byzantine treaties, the Rus’ leaders and their druzhinas swear only by Perun and Veles, even as early as Oleg, and just like the Primary Chronicle, the treaties only contain the Slavic forms of their names. The aforementioned treaties and chronicle differentiate the Varangians and the Rus’ as two separate, unrelated peoples. An immediate example appears in the retelling of the events of 905, when the twelve warbands of the Rus are assembled by Oleg, only one Warband is Scandinavian, and they are Variag/Varangian, and they are clearly stated as separate from the grouping, and notion of the Rus, who are all those twelve warbands, the majority being the Slavs and the last two, Finno-Ugrian, not to mention that during the signing of the Rus-Roman treaty of 907, the Rus/Rurikid and Varangian signatories are listed separately as two separate, different people. Even the Germanic Sagas deem the Varangians as Germans, whereas the Rus’ are treated as foreigners.
2. There are no archaeological findings of Norse colonization of Early Russia, and there are no archaeological, and historical mentions of the worship of Germanic gods in the Rus’. There is evidence of limited Norse-Slavic cohabitation, in the form of the Varangian District in Novgorod (the smallest district, to boot) and in Staraya Ladoga, and items of trade, unfortunately for Normanists, and those like you, are proof of trade, and not colonization. Not to mention the near-total absence of Danelaw-like laws and legal systems in the Early Russian state.
3. The Normanists rationalize the total absence of the worship of Germanic gods in the Rus’ by postulating that the Russes/Slavs, the Varangians, and the Greeks didn’t distinguish Thor from Perun, but that is refuted by the content of the Black Grave - remains of two Varangian men, their equipment, and a religious, dark-bronze idol of Thor, which doesn’t just refute the aforementioned Normanist premise, but also proves that Thor was worshiped as a separate deity and not equated to Perun and that Thor’s worship was limited solely to the Norse Varangians.
4. All archaeological material that reveals Old Norse making was supplanted out of the material culture of the Early Russian elite by items of East Slavic making already by the mid-to-late tenth century and that they utterly disappeared in the eleventh century, which is further corroborated by the historical argument of the appearance of purely Slavic personal names among the immediate ruling Rurikid family - Sviatoslav, Predslava, and Volodislav, as attested in the Rus-Byzantine treaty of 944. After Igor, all historical Rurikids bore strictly Slavic names.
5. In the Primary Chronicle, the most integral paragraph regarding the origin of the Rurikids is found in the Laurentian Text, page 63, and it states the following: “Paul is the teacher of the Slavic race, from which we Russians too are sprung, even so, the Apostle Paul is the teacher of us Russians, for he preached to the Slavic nation, and appointed Andronicus as Bishop and successor to himself among them. But the Slavs and the Russes are one people, for it is because of the Varangians that the latter became known as Rus', though originally, they were Slavs. It summarily verifies that the Rus’ were originally Slavs, and further states that their involvement with the Varangians at one point in history is the reason why they were renamed as Rus’.
6. DNA studies have revealed and verified the Slavic origin of the Rurikids, all historical Rurikids (Gleb Sviatoslavich, Yaroslav Osmomysl, and Izyaslav Ingvarevich) who were tested were revealed to have predominately Slavic aDNA profile, Slavic Y-DNA, and a total or near-total absence of Norse DNA. The oldest and the most indicative historical Rurikid is Gleb Sviatoslavich, Yaroslav’s paternal grandson, and bearer of the Y-DNA I2a1b-Din, an overwhelmingly Slavic aDNA profile with a particular, Mediterranean input which he had inherited from his mother or grandmother, which categorically confirms his status as Yaroslav’s grandson, whereas the modern paternal descendants of Yaroslav the Wise’s firstborn son, the house of Sviatopolk-Czetwertinski - the paternal progeny of Yaroslav’s firstborn son (with his second wife Saint Ingegerd) Iziaslav too are bearers of Y-DNA I2a1b-Din, that just further verifies the aforementioned - that the Rurikids were Slavs, thus Slavic Y-DNA. At this stage, all we need is Yaroslav’s own Y-DNA, and it is done. Furthermore, merely Yaroslav’s Wife, Saint Ingegerd, is the sole Rurikid that is supposed to boast Northern Germanic DNA, but even that is dubious because of her predominately Slavic heritage. (1/2).
7. Originally, before the founding of the Normanist theory (and even after), the Rurikids were denoted as a Slavic dynasty, and the theories were the result of ethnographic and historical studies and not the weaponization of the Legend of the Invitation. The summaries of the theories are the following:
a) Varangians from Wagrians or Prussians
The Austrian notable Sigismund Herberstein, being an adviser to the ambassador to Muscovy in the first half of the 16th century, was one of the first Europeans to get acquainted with the Russian chronicles and expressed his opinion about the origin of the Varangians and Rurik. Linking the name of the Varangians with the Slavo-Baltic people of the Wagri, Sigismund von Herberstein comes to the conclusion that: “Russians summoned their princes rather from the Wagri, or Varangians than handed over power to foreigners who differ from them in faith, customs, and language". The Scandinavians and the Germans called the Wagri and all the Pomeranian Slavs the Wends. Synchronous sources do not contain information about the connection of the Pomeranian Slavs with the Varangians, although, in the 2nd half of the 10th century, Wendish naval campaigns against their neighbors were a noted sight.
b) Lomonosov denotes Rurik and the Varangians as having descended from the Prussian lands, relying on toponyms and later chronicles, which replaced the lexeme “Varangians” with the pseudo-ethnonym “Germans”. Lomonosov “a priori” accepted the Slavic origin of Rurik as an irrefutable fact: "The Varangians and Rurik with their clan, who came to Novgorod, were Slavic tribes, spoke the Slavic language, came from ancient Russians/Slavs, and were by no means from Scandinavia, but lived on the eastern-southern shores of the Varangian Sea, between the Vistula and Dvina rivers ... Scandinavia and on the northern shores of the Varangian Sea is nowhere to be heard ... Our chroniclers mention that Rurik and his Rod came from Nemets, and in some cases, it is written that from Prussia ... Between the Vistula and Dvina rivers, it flows into the Varangian Sea from the east-south side of the river, which above, near the city of Grodna, it is called Nemen, and Rusa is reputed to its mouth. Here it is clear that the Varangians-Rus lived in the eastern-southern coast of the Varangian Sea, near the Ruse River ... And the very name Prussians or Poruss shows that the Prussians lived along the Russes or alongside the Russes. Lomonosov. - "Objections to Miller's Dissertation"
c) Mecklenburg genealogies
There is a folk legend about Rurik and his brothers, published in the 1830s by the French traveler and writer Xavier Marmier in the book "Northern Letters". He recorded that in Northern Germany, among the Mecklenburg peasants, formerly vigorous, by that time almost completely Germanized. The legend tells that in the 8th century, the tribe of the Udrites was ruled by a king named Godlove, the father of three sons, the first of whom was called Rurik Mirny, the second - Sivar the Victorious, third - Truvar the Faithful... The brothers decided to search for glory in the lands to the east. After many deeds and terrible battles, the brothers came to Russia, whose people suffered under the burden of a long tyranny but did not dare to rebel. The encouraging brothers awoke the lulling courage in the local people, led the army, and overthrew the rule of the oppressors. Having restored peace and order in the country, the brothers decided to return to their venerable father, but the grateful people begged them not to leave and take the place of the former kings. Thus, Rurik received the Novgorod principality (Nowoghorod), Sivar - Pskov (Pleskow), Truvar - Belozerskoe (Bile-Jezoro). Since after a while the younger brothers died without leaving any trueborn heirs, Rurik annexed their principalities to his own, becoming the founder of the ruling dynasty. It should be noted that this is the only mention of Rurik in “Western” folklore, although the date of the legend cannot be established. The legend was written down a century after the publication of Rurik's Mecklenburg genealogy: "At the beginning of the 18th century, several genealogical works appeared on the dynasties of the Northern German lands of Mecklenburg, the former area of the settlement of Slavic tribes of “cheer” or “vigor”. In 1716, the vice-rector of the gymnasium, Friedrich Thomas, published work for the wedding of the Duke of Mecklenburg Karl Leopold and the Russian princess Catherine, daughter of Tsar Ivan V. Thomas used a 1687 manuscript written by the notary of the Mecklenburg court count Johann Friedrich von Chemnitz, who, in turn, referred to then the manuscript of 1418."
d) The 19th-century historian Gedeonov suggested that Rurik is not his given name, but the generic nickname Rerek, which was worn by all representatives of the ruling dynasty of the Obodrites. The assumption was substantiated by reference to the Scandinavian sagas, where allegedly the skald Guthorm Sindri calls the Wendish Slavs “falcons”. The quoted passage refers to the saga of Hakon the Good from the "Earth Circle" by Snorri Sturluson. Guthorm Sindri speaks of “falcon distance" In the context of the war in the 2nd half of the 10th century, King Hakon with the Vikings -" both Danes and the Wends". In the Scandinavian sagas, the Wends (Pomeranian Slavs) began to engage in great pirates from the 10th century, in earlier times, sources record only their land-born campaigns. Subsequently, the author of "The Lay of Igor's Host" calls the adults of Rurik falcons and the prince's falcons, but this epithet has been applied since ancient times to people of noble origin.
8. The vast majority of historical and archaeological studies, and with it, discoveries about Early Russia were made in the Soviet Union, the reason for that is that the Normanist dogma was discarded by the Communists who had no bias about the origins of Russia, and since Russia is multicultural, the Communists have gotten rid of the most nationalist of historians in academia, so there was no ideological and political obstruction to the process. The modern Normanist theory was forged almost entirely by 20th-century dissident scientists - those discredited and thrown out of Soviet academia due to their incompetence and shameless sycophant attitudes toward the West. From the start, the theory of the origin of Russia was entirely political to the Normanists. When Soviet Russia fell, the Normanists' pro-Western narrative was favored by the new Russian elite, thus the reason why anti-Normanism and other teachings are being subsequently pushed out of academia - this is the only reason why Normanism is accepted in Russian academia. The totality of the results of the aforementioned studies, when free of ideological dogma, support the Anti-Normanist teachings. Normanist-specific studies, on the other hand, are fewer in numbers, and notably lesser in quality and scope, and by definition, must apply circular reasoning to their work - The Normanist begins with what they are trying to end with, this is the opposite of historicism, and is dogmatism, even revisionism. Furthermore, what you wrote about the ethnonym's etymology is outdated and long-refuted, even by Russian Normanists, the modern academic mainstream is present here (Google Search the following: "Современные научные оценки версии происхождения слова Русь от финского Ruotsi. I часть.
9. The premises you pushed regarding the religious beliefs of the Rus/Rurikids are very amateur. As stated above, those few Norse items of worship were imported from Northern Europe for those, some Varangians employed by the Rurikids or were brought by the said Varangians, and were distinguished from the items of Slavic worship utilized by the Rus/Rurikids and the other Slavs, it goes without saying that the near-entirety of items of worship in Early Russia are Slavic. Your point about Odin being worshipped by the Wends is disingenuous, the only group of Wends that worshipped Odin were the Wendish Jomsvikings, whereas the traditional major deities of the Wends were Perun, Veles, and Svetovid. Furthermore, one of the leading authorities on the history of the Baltic Region, Matti Klinge, furthers the theory that the Rurikids were Wagrian Slavs and not Norsemen.
Your antagonistic attitude is baffling when several of your conclusions are already stated in the video, such as limited evidence of Scandinavian colonization, little to no evidence of Scandinavian state formation in Rus', and most evidence pointing to Scandinavians being present as traders and mercenaries. There is also an abundance of items indicating the presence of Scandinavian culthood in the region, ranging from runic inscriptions to amulets. The religious rites described of itinerant Rus in Volga Bulgaria by Ibn-Fadlan and others appears to be a blend of Scandinavian, Finnic, Slavic, and Turkic practices - this is something I will discuss in a future video. And there is evidence to limited to Scandinavian colonization around the upper Volkhov, such as grain findings similar to ones from Middle Sweden and findings of iron plows of Swedish craftsmanship. I mostly discuss this in the video on Aldeigjuborg/Staraya Ladoga, a settlement primarily inhabited by Scandinavians until the end of the 10th century. Regarding the Wendish theory I am familiar with it and I think it is possible due to vast archaeological findings of West Slavic items in the Volkhov region, most importantly at Gorodishche on Lake Ilmen which appears to have been the center of the "Rus Khagan", but this is something I'll be discussing in the video about the settlement aforementioned.
@@balticempire7244 There are, at most, only several runestones found in the entirety of the landmass of Early Russia, and as stated before, items of Norse worship were items that weren't made in the Russian state, but either imported for those Norsemen who plied their trade in Russia, or were brought with them - as attested in the findings of the Black Grave, and are distinguished from items of Slavic worship that were found all over early Russia, not to mention that the worship of Slavic deities in Early Russia is universally attested, in the form of the Rus-Roman treaties, the PC, archaeology, and modern, dedicated studies on the matter. There's not a single source, modern or primary, that states that the Rurikids or the other Slavs worshiped anything but Perun and Veles as their primary deities. Antagonism breeds the best ideas and debates.
Ibn-Fadlan is infamous for his dubious usage of the ethnonym Rus, which he used to denote all peoples who had traded with the Rus in the Volga region, and plied the "trade" of the group of the Rus that he had written about. Regarding the Wendish theory, I believe you shall find the following interesting:
1. We have DNA proof of Novgorodians with the Y-DNA R1a who tested for deeper clades scoring the West Slavic R1a-M458 in the entirety, or near-entirety, therefore confirming the Wendish origin and the relation to Gorodische and Starigrad/Oldenburg. The study is called "Gene Pool of the Novgorod Population: Between the North and the South" (Balanovska et al. 2017).
2. The original language/dialect of Novgorod and Gorodische was West, not Old East Slavic.
Interesting, I will give it a look. AFAIK the West Slavic writing from the early Novgorod region was imported from Great Moravia during the late 9th century and its adaptation in Rus seems to have predated Christianity. Funnily enough the Christian liturgical tradition in Rus would then spread from Bulgaria which in turn had adapted most of its liturgical tradition from Moravian clergy fleeing the collapse of their state.
@@balticempire7244 That is true, they also borrowed the name "Vladimir" from the First Bulgarian Empire - the name's oldest attested bearer being Vladimir Rasate. Regarding Novgorod, I wasn't speaking of their writing system, but the spoken language, which was originally West Slavic.
Thank you!! Much appreciated 😊❤️
I lay on the moderate "Normanist" side: the formation of Rus is comparable to that of (post-Anglosaxon) England, there are differences in the details but both were decisively influenced by Nordic (or Viking or Varangian) elites, the Goths and generally Eastern Germanics were a precursor of the Varangians too.
A lot of peoples of ancient Rus were not actually Slavs but Uralics anyhow but, much as in Bulgaria, where Slavs arrived under a Turkic (post-Hunnic) elite, they managed to make their language and culture hegemonic anyhow (probably because they were less elitist and more friendly to everyone but also had the numbers).
Yup, even though the danes and norwegians ruled parts of Ireland, scottland and england etc they were still as a whole a minority and over the centuries they completly integrated with the population there. It is obviously roughly the same thing that happend in Kievanrus.
@@Mukation - They had a significant impact in English language, mostly as Norman French but also arguably as Danish influence. I can only imagine that similarly Old Norse or proto-Swedish had some influence on Easterm Slavic (Rus languages) but I don't know enough to judge that.
I don't want to turn this into an infantile argument, because I understand that maybe you don't know much about the history of Eastern Europe in general, let alone the Slavs. The Bulgarian Slavs did not come "under the Turkic elite", but maybe a century before the Bulgars (Turkic tribe after whom they are named today). I'm not Bulgarian, just to emphasize. The first rulers of the Bulgarian empire were of Turkic Bulgar origin, but very quickly, after only a few generations, the ruling dynasty and the entire empire was already completely Slavic(there are no records of any Slavic-Bulgarian conflicts that would imply either inferiority or superiority of either). In the genetics of today's population of Bulgaria, the Turkic element is completely negligible (although Bulgaria itself was later under the Ottoman Empire for almost 500 years). The former Ural peoples on the other hand, today are an important part of the total Russian genetics, but mostly in the northern parts. The most important areas of Kievan Rus, including Kiev, were dominantly Slavic. Also, maybe you didn't watch the video to the end, but the genetics of the ruling elite of Kievan Rus are clearly indicated at least from Yaroslav, who according to the official (even moderate) Normanist theory should be a direct descendant of Rurik (although he has a completely Slavic name and gives such names to his successors ) as "typically Slavic" I2a haplogroup(dominant among South Slavs and present in a significant percentage only among Ukrainians and Belarusians today). As for the Goths, what you are talking about applies exclusively to the Western Goths. Eastern ones are much more complicated, both genetically and in terms of historical documents. Interestingly, there is a document from the 12th century, "Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin" (a Catholic priest from Duklja, an ancient Slavic principality, which is today Montenegro), in which the author basically collects folk tales about past times (I repeat, the 12th century) and he uses the term "Goths" as a group title for the people from whom the Slavs "separated" (he means the south Slavs). This document is not any kind of "evidence" and official historiography rejects it as such (just as it rejects Nestor's chronicles), but I just want to emphasize that it exists. And just to mention one more interesting thing that is also not a proof of anything nor do I think it should be seen as such, but the very Slavs that the priest Dukljanin writes about and to whom he belongs, are those whose descendants today carry up to over 50% of the I2a haplogroup . These are the Slavs who throughout history were also known as "Neretlians". They settled on the shores of the Adriatic approximately in the 7th or 8th century (officially) and already in the 9th century forced Venice, the most powerful maritime power of the Mediterranean, to pay them tribute for safe passage. So, Slavs without absolutely any maritime tradition and who for some reason thinks that they are Goths , in just 100 years become...not to say, "Vikings". Interesting, nothing more.
@@boogeyman4937 - You may be thinking of the Slavs associated to the Avars but the fact is that Byzantium (Maurice, 602) managed to expel them. They may still be related somehow but they were not established south of the Danube in any significant way before the Bulgar conquest (681 onwards).
Let's keep it succint, right on point and please make some paragraph breaks for readibility. TY.
People adopt a new language for economic motivations, generally. That "Slavic" became the dominant language in many cultural melting pots reveals that the Slavic Economy was the best option for all of the mixed-ethnicity admixtures who came to live amongst them. This shifts the entire paradigm of some ill-explained "Slavic under-class" to the obvious reinterpretation of a desireable and enviable prestige to be considered as if you were also "Slavic". This turns the whole historic "Germanic" propaganda on its head, where those lies and idiocy ought to be. "Slavic" was a prestige language, embedded in a superior economy. Simple and as obvious as that.
Thanks I found this very objective.
What if there was no direct continuity of some dynasty ? And as you said in the video Yaroslav had slavic genetic origin, that could indicate that ruler's was multi ethnic from different origin and just claiming to be of Rurik origin to justify the Rule as there wasn't nationalism during the Time.
As me from czech republic it reminded me Charles IV of Luxembourg dynasty who described himself in "Vita Caroli" as more from Přemyslid dynasty, same to justify the land rule because there was a lot of anti german propaganda in Bohemia during that time, for example "Dalimil chronicle" , so that could be same in Kievan Rus, that some prince who get power over kievan rus simply refer to himself to previous dynasty.
This could have happened. The lack of genetic a genetic link only really proves that the rulers of Rus definately had Slavic ancestry after a certain point. Also as mentioned in the video Rurik may be a fictional character, even if he had some basis in real events.
Might not the mongol invasion have something to do with it? If I remember correctly, they killed a lot of the leaders and people of Kievan Rus. If not for them, I suspect we would have a lot more and better sources, both genetically and historically since Kievan Rus was an advanced society for its time, with many learned people and wealth.
True, So sad that a lot of source's vanished , and not just in Rus but whole Europe, such gems can be found. @@pappelg2639
Even as a disabled guy with a bad left side... with a normal backpack.. I can walk 20 to 30 km a day... in a 10-day period that's about 180 MI...
in a 100-day period... now if I was traveling by a horse... the distance would double.... but according to so-called science everything is such a slow progression we walk so slowly through everything..
hope to see some kind of history on the finno ugric people and their roles in the regions they inhabited
Finnic peoples history was deleted by the winners.
@@BIRDMANinc true but some of it remains still
@@dasarath5779 ditto, it stays in blood and ways of life mostly occulted from the social engineers and even from themselves.
@@dasarath5779 There is some Russian channel
www.youtube.com/@RussianSentry
There is a video about Finno-Ugric peoples origin.
Basicly what happend is that the swedish vikings got drunk and sailed in the wrong direction when the rest of us went to England :D .. With love from Denmark
@@Sviareik 😁 Yes or .. Fem flade flødeboller på et fladt flødebollefad
Good joke, comrad
The first question, who were the Vikings there, is the dominant I1 haplogroup?
It is known that the Vikings looted in the West, but I have not heard that they did it in the East, why?
Yes, the Vikings from present-day Svealand, who were called Rus, created a number of trading cities that formed the basis of Russia. The Finns name for Sweden is Still Rus.
Simply wrong.
What's Finns name for Russia than?
Ruotsi*????? does that mean it derives from the word Rus automatically? I think it derives from when swedes were called "rowers" in Finland. Or did i misunderstood your grammar.
Well Finnish Name For Sweden is Ruotsi..Not Rus..
@@AaSs-ln9mm Finnish name for Russia is Venäjä.
The newly tested remains of Rurikid princes show haplogroups I2a-dinaric and a local R1a variant. Other, newer Rurikid princes were found to be N1c ( Scandinavian version of an Uralic / Finnic ancestry ). So, earliest found Rurikids had l2a and R1a.
The Arabs and Persians also differentiated that Rus are SALAWIYA which to them wasn't the same as Saqaliba. Salawiya seems to be the name of a "tribe", while Saqaliba could be slaves.
The area where Rus appears also is the area where Roxolani ( Rukhs-Alani ) used to live. Rukhs means light-complexioned in Ossetian, Rus means light-complexioned in Slavic, Kumans also has the same meaning Qum-man - light-complexioned tribe.
Rus literally means fair-haired, fair-skinned, ruddy, red haired in south Slavic languages which split from east-Slavic some 600 years BEFORE there was a Rus state.
It's an indo-European rooted word which also has relations to words like rust, lux etc.
This is fascinating. My maternal grandmother, who was from the sub-Carpathian valley, insisted that our family origins were Rus-not Russian, Ukranianian, or anything but Rus. Most of us have very fair skin and several of us have red or red-blonde hair. I grew up being told that was because of our Rusyn heritage. My grandmother also referred to Perun when weather was fierce. Now I wonder if our background goes back to Vikings.
Unfortunately this video doesn't include any references to Rusyn or Ruthenian. Old western Ukraine used to be Galicia and Volhynia, and In polish its "rus".
Есть довольно обоснованная версия, что жители Карпат являются потомками кельтов
Yes Rusyns are a separate, officially recognized ethnic group speaking a language separate from Ukrainian, but both stem from Ruthenian which stems from Old East Slavic, same as Russian. They have as much to do with the old Rus' as the other Slavic ethnic groups originating from its borders, and seem to have developed into a distinct group outside of the timeframe covered in this video. Hence why it wasn't covered. It's already a long video.
@@balticempire7244 Rusyn-Ruthenian-Ukrainian it is ukrainian.Several endonyms such as Rus' and Rusyn were used widely by the East Slavs of Kievan Rus' during the medieval period.Rusyns are considered (by both state and cultural authorities) only a sub-group of the Ukrainian people.
Rusyns are Slavs and relayed moat closely to Slavaks and Ukranians. 💯
Interesting Theorie. I find at as so true as the claim that the Norman made England as state, and everything before was tribes ...
汉语 是 俄国 in Chinese Russia is Eguo. Sweden is Ruidan, 瑞典, Apologies cannot type Pinyin. For the Mandarin Chinese speakers the Swedes are Ru and the Russians are not Ru
Interesting.
I follow the Normanist calp myself not the anti-normanists.
But I admit that the normanist camp lacks nuance.
I tend to believe that the ruling classes were Baltic and Finnic ethnicities from Latvian, Estonian and Finnish tribes. Not always Swedish.
As if it was a solely Swedish phenomenon, Germanic loanwords would be everywhere. I acknowledge that we already see Swedish loanwords, but there's a good plenty of loanwords from Uralic and Baltic languages.
So I follow a multifaceted Normanist camp.
Relating solely to the concept of the Germanic varangian ignores the attested Baltic and Finnic Vikings that were active even 3 centuries after the Viking age ended in 1066
At this point if some of the Vikings were Greek, Turkic or Jewish mercenaries I wouldn't be surprised. The Rus aristocracy was tied to a lot of cities. But this is conjecture
I didnt necessarily citate reasons or evidence, just beliefs.
Example Rurik has a Finnish Cognate.
So, the conclusion is that the Scandinavian influence was certainly present, but not to the extent that the Normanists try to present. There is no evidence for Rurik as to whether he existed at all, but for Jaroslav, who is supposed to be his descendant, we know that he was of Slavic origin on the paternal line based on genetic evidence (interestingly, haplogroup I2a, dominant among southern Slavs). Germano-Scandinavian finds are often found, but exclusively within existing Slavic (with them, Germano- Slavic) settlements, which means that it was a matter of coexistence, not a hierarchical relationship. In conclusion, we can say that the Scandinavians certainly participated in the formation of Kievan Rus, and were even an important part of it, but that they "founded the state" is an exaggeration.
"As for the Rus, they live on an island … that takes three days to walk round and is covered with thick undergrowth and forests; … They harry the Slavs, using ships to reach them; they carry them off as slaves and … sell them. They have no fields but simply live on what they get from the Slav's lands … When a son is born, the father will go up to the newborn baby, sword in hand; throwing it down, he says, 'I shall not leave you with any property: You have only what you can provide with this weapon.'"
- Ahmad ibn Rustah, on the Rus
@@John-un3lj Ok, so, of all the things mentioned in the video that the average Jo(hn) decided to comment on, we now also have the testimony of a certain Ahmad Ibn Rustah, a Persian, not to say Muslim travel writer from the 10th century. We all know how credible people with such names are to this day, but why not play that game.
So, Ahmad managed to see or experience it in the 10th century. In the same century in which Yaroslav the Wise was born, the oldest king of Kievan Rus whose DNA sample we have(according to the Normanist theory, a direct male successor of the legendary, literally mythical, Rurik) and who was genetically proven to be of Slavic origin (I2a haplogroup, I would suggest you watch the video you are commenting on ). If you don't recognize at least a small loss of logic in these two pieces of information (the fact that the king of Kievan Rus was Slavic through the male line and those trumpeting of a Persian travel writer who probably wasn't anywhere but heard it or made it up), then I'll have to suspect that you're even a below-average Jo(hn). On the other hand, let me treat you with the text of a Jewish travel writer, also from the 10th century(for some reason, to this day, Jews seem more credible ):
Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th-century Sephardic Jewish traveler):
"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not for their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"
So who is right, Abraham or Ahmed?
...from the sea to the sea Slavia will be free. 😄 Actually, it is. So, at least from 10 centuries until today, Slavs live from the Mediterranean to the Baltic(we're going to assume that Abraham messed up with the North Sea(ocean, whatever), because if he didn't, it would be too much for the souls of all the average Johns to deal with). That's half of Europe, John. And you can add half of Asia as well. More than 300 million people, John. And officially, they started from the swampy and forested areas south of the Baltic Sea, a territory barely bigger than today's Belarus. Not bad for the slaves of today's feminized, but once dangerous Vikings.
Arab traders clearly describe Scandinavian customs among the Kievan Rus
Well, because he most likely saw either Scandinavians or Slavs in their clothes. Which let's be honest had no big differences except for the little things that not every Arab is likely to know at that time
"Rus" ("Рус") means "blonde" in Bulgarian.
Rousse (Рус) means Red (redhead) in french
I heard it means the men who row in finnish
@@mgm661like Khazars
There are some who are saying that the Europeans are the ten lost tribes of Israel. They make very convincing arguments.
About the controversy, if you check who Ruriks father was, Godoslav of the Obotrites tride located in modern day Germany - in the past slavic area - you really can be sure they were of slavic origin. A contemporary example would be if Zlatan Ibrahimovic became president of Bosnia & Herzegovina.
If Zlatan Ibrahimovic became high representative!
I'd like to draw attention to the fact that there were no Russia, Ukraine and Belorus in the beginning it was Rus, a totally different polity which language doesn't even exist anymore. The history of Rus has an unpredictable BEGINNING.)
The haplogroup of the Rurikid dynasty was N so they were of Finnic origin. Probably vikingized Finn’s went south and conquered Slavs. This video is very informative! Just wanted to throw out that something interesting can be deduced by some of the genetic studies, I am no expert of course.
That’s kind of a stretch for a conclusion, based on just a haplogroup, but it’s something interesting.
There was no such thing as «the Rurikid dynasty», never mentioned by any medieval source of the time.
@@nara808N haplogroup found in Rurikids is not just finnic. N is an ancient haplogroup that hunter and gathered people in Scandinavia before the arrival of Yamnaya and Anatolian farmers. The n haplogroup found in the Rurikids is exclusively found in the Uppland region or a majority of bearers were Swedes. And found in Swedish finns. It is a Germanic branch of N. If you read the papers.
More than half of Scandinavia is inhabited by native finnic Sami people, so N1c is very common haplogroup there.
Ruotsi = Sweden
Ludanyiah sounds a lot like ludia which means people in many Slavic languages today and rusy means red haired, not brown.
As a Norwegian i find it interesting that the largest findings of scandinavian genes in midevil Kyiv are from Norway
Nope
11 April 2024 AD / AH :
Thank you for your presentation .
I watched all of it .
Yes. Yes they did.
This was very well done. You should have more subs.
It is clear that both normanists and slavists are wrong as new evidence will soon show that the Rus actually came from west Africa.
Ha! Everyone came from Africa.
@@zipperpillowthey was kangs, khans, and boyars
In the 2-sided current debate about who the "Rus" were.......both sides are wrong. Both sides project today's politics backwards, and manage to completely ignore the actual groups who lived in the area then, and their geo-economic-politics and religion. Iranian diaspora after Islamic conquest of Zoroastrian Iran launched several groups across the Pontic Steppes as displaced refugees, including Croats, Serbs, and Lyakhs, as well as Antes and Alani. Sambatas/Kiev became a nucleus for some of these transplanted tribes to re-establish themselves. The links are many and transparent. The Baltic boat-boys were fringe players. We can say they came to Staraya Ladoga with regular visits for trade, or for hire, but the strings were pulled by others.@@sportsfisher9677
@@sportsfisher9677 We wuz khazars and shiet
Really interesting video. Thank you. Also, I love the paintings you use in the video? Can you source them as well, like maybe give the title of the painting and artist?
Pretty good id say. Its interesting how you however start with very "recent" sources. There is plenty of proof from the era of "viking" high culture to support the origins of the names... Trade was carried out with Götar and Svear all throughout germany for millennia before the "viking" age exploded across the continent. You have written records from both frankish explorers that drew maps of the swedish coastline before the vikings began their famous raiding. There are germanic monks that tried to spread the word of jesus into the scandinavian lands that wrote about it. As recently as a few years ago a massgrave was unearthed on Öland where christians had been murdered and ritually buried more than a 1000 years ago. So that there should be no sources for the people of middle sweden being refered to as Rus for a long, long time.... The word Ruotsi or its proto-estonian counterpart (which it comes from) does not mean Swede. it means "from rodan". Rodan being a region currently called Roslagen. The name rus as a reference to people living in what is today sweden exists way back during the copper trade with germanic tribes and its earlies mention is over 2000 years old and is on a written statement from the roman emperor. For over a 1000 years various Suione groups made safe the routes to the rich countries of Särkland. There is no refuting that.
Combine that with the fact that "assuming" identity of anyone or anything in an era when people where for obvious reasons alot more closely related from some regions. It is also down to the line far to many people draw between RUS and Slav. The insistance on them somehow absolutely being the same. They can exist parallel as well as be the same and have nothing to do with one and other at the same time. Nationalism always clouds these things since people often start trying to find evidence from their point of view. If Rurik was in fact a full blooded Suion a decendent from there or having no roots from there whatsoever is unimportant to the matter. The fact remains that all throughout the various river areas in belarus/ukraine/russia there are alot of towns with Swedish names. There is enough old nobility around form them days to count their lines backwards to scandinavian decent. DNA does not lie.
On the other end if you read a russian history book. Varangians are not scandinavians at all. The rus has nothing to do with scandinavia and russia as a nation has been around for a couple of centuries, apparently in secret, before anyone else even heard about it. Allegedly our eastern cousins also have some very special origins out on the tundra. For what reason that crap is taught to anyone i can not understand. Have a gander at some of the comments below that are as far removed from reality as a flerfers claims. They usually also describe scandinavians as unwashed, malnourished, stunted and comcially inept and stupid. The viking raids was infact done by someone else entirely and they had to be collected from scandinavia to be used as slaves as cannonfodder in various wars (thus explaining why there would be obvious traces of them through rus lands)
Can you provide the Roman mention of "Rus"?
@@balticempire7244 If im not mistaken its form the book "shadow of rome" where the cultural influence the svear and götar brought with them back from various trading expeditions with the roman empire. (If not its worth reading anyhow) How it affected futhark and other things. If not its probably from the "norse high culture" article series. Its a set of articles written on the topic of the trade the svear and götar conducted as early as 2500 BC with various places around europe. (earlier still according to some). There is another book on the topic of the earlier trade, expansion and actual locations throughout what is belarus/ukraine/russia and beyond today that can be directly linked to Sweden through archeological finds, anthroplogy/dna and writings by monks/early germanic lords and frank/frisian explorer/adventurers from what is the early iron age for Sweden. (high culture era) Its called something like "the heart of all vikingdom.
You will have to provide the names of authors or links to these works because a preliminary search of your provided titles on several engines has sadly not rendered any results.
@@balticempire7244 Kent Andersson and Stig Enström. Ill have to get back to you about the article series and the digs. (currently between homes and my library is packed up)
Ok, thanks. I'll be making some content on Ancient Sweden in the future so this will be of help.
"...anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their ass." Okay, but nearly every comment on a TH-cam video amounts to people talking out of their ass! 😂
Yeah, you'll find a lot of experts down here.
@@balticempire7244 Oh, I know. It's one of those channels that people watch out of an abiding shared and often deep interest. Hence the joke 😉
Why is it so difficult for Scandinavians to admit that they are of Russian origin?
Because we're not😂😂😂😂. Look at cranium shape.
2024 is off to a great start finding this channel...
You don't take old scandinavian stone writing, rune stones, into account enough. They tell stories about colonization of the rus.
which ones?
No offense, but black man trying to teach us European history... Huh bro... Good luck
Indirectly: a bunch after the Rus is known to have begun describe expiditions and individual trips into Eastern European rivers for trading or fighting, or using the rivers there to reach the Black Sea and get down to Greece.
Issue is it could describe Norse members of the Rus moving about, or Norsemen setting it up, or them going there after the fact or be completely coincidental to the early Slavic polities forming
@@balticempire7244I think a number of Swedish stones mention travel to or through Eastern Europe? Issue is the dates and places
the runestones date to the 11th century which is way after the foundation of Rus, nor is the word "Rus" ever used in any Scandinavian texts, where the region is typically called Garthariki
The chuds picture :D
Love your channel, thank you for your work!
Kievan-Rus was founded, or developed by the East-Slavic tribes, while the Scandinavians were invited at later period, as a compromise, to rebuild unity between those tribes, and it's foolish to believe that a tribalistic, Slavic state was founded by even more primitive, Germanic people.
Nothing funnier then a shovinist slav in denial.
Agreed. Very foolish, wishful thinking. Delusional.
The Swedish Vikings were a ruling class. They did not displace the native people who always remained in numbers. The trade networks and Rus kingdoms shaped the area forever. Russia has historically put heavy bias toward Slavic origin stories, but Viking era influence is very much part of their history. Rus is pre-Russian history and is part of the Viking era influence across Europe, and even across the Atlantic ocean. Archaeological, Historical, and genetic research is clear about this. Many fully integrated into the new regions they invaded/explored, and much like how the Normans became part of Francia when in fact they were of Nordic origin. Stop trying the delete the impact of the Viking era. Russia wasn't Russia until hundreds of years later.
Before making assumptions, learn the russian language. The word for water, more specifically DEW, is rossa( origin would be ros) Ros simlply means water. Also look at river names, some mean river, some mean deep, some mean harbor (for trading)
If Ros' means water, what Chud', Ves', Sum', Vod', Erz', and others mean ? Do you see the "pattern" ? Seems like Ros' is just how East slav ppl called some northern group/tribe of ppl similarly how they called other finno-ugric tribes
The whole of europe & russia were dominated by scandinavians/north germans after the western roman empire. juts, danes, goths, franks, saxons, suebi, etc.
Wrong, Adolf. Also, the Suebi/Suavi/Slavs were Slavic, not Germanic.
@@zipperpillow The Suebi were from Sweden according to some one from max planck institute. Slavs were ruled over by Scandinavians also. I'm not Scandinavian or German either.
Very doubtful. Max Planck makes errors too.@@joebanks9529
Ok, Schizo-Himmler
The Romans dominated Europe, North Africa & Asia minor prior. Me pointing this out makes me more schizo hopefully. @@overlord165
No, it is the opposite. Findings shows that the Viking-ships are not from Scandinavia but from central russia. Findings that are 1500 years older than the vikings.
"Findings that are 1500 years older than the vikings." If so, those people who made those were not Slavs, as they came to the modern Russia onwards from 600s. Prior to that, many parts of Russia were settled by Finnic and Finno-Ugric people.
Thank you, appreciated
Perun and Volos had equivalents in Thor and Odin - much more likely that the pagan tribes recognized this and used the names for each others gods on others lands, whilst thinking of their own similar god. Thus neither neglecting their own gods nor disrespecting other tribes they may have traded with
These were not equivalents. They are the same gods. Even Zeus is Odin. Because all Indo-Europeans have the same gods and because of the change in language they sound different. Another thing is that depending on the region, the primacy of god changed
30:46 looking at the history of swedes adapting to foreigners or how we adapt abroad. This is also a possibility. We simply integrate well.
The earliest archaeological evidence of settlement in Novgorod begins only around 940-950. AD.. long after the official date of Rurik's arrival in 862. so either he was in another place, or this story is just a legend ..
Modern Novgorod, yes, but the original settlement was located a few miles south-east closer to Lake Ilmen. It is usually called Rurik's stronghold today(Riurikovo Gorodishche) but is believed by historians to be the original Novgorod. It was common during the widespread urbanisation of the 10th century to move old market settlements to nearby, more favorable positions.
@@balticempire7244 Yes, the Rurik's Gorodische archaeologically corresponds to 862 AD.. but the problem is.. it is really small.. the original Settlement during the time of Rurik was practically a small wooden fortress and several houses.. the total area is about 1.5 football fields, not too impressive for a Prince's residence who came to Rule over great territory and several local tribes .. and in general the territory was sparsely populated.. unlike the land of the Polans in the south. Also.. we know nothing about the actions of Rurik between 862-879. What did he do for almost 20 years after arriving in Novgorod or somewhere else?
The Viking Age (793-1066 CE) was the period Vikings undertook large-scale raiding, colonising, conquest, and trading throughout Europe and even reached North America. No doubt before that the river system between the Baltic and the Black Sea facilitated movement and the Vikings were not shy people. As the video describes Archaeologic sources indicate that Scandanavian including Finnish people travelled along these water ways. The physical size of this territory and the overall flatness of the terrain (no sharp borders) means that many people of different ethnicities mixed , traded and of course , fought with each other over a long period of time so the result must have been a very patchwork but vast region of mixed ethnicities. Debates on the origin of "Rus" will be the work of Archaeologists and Historians for ever.
22:23 It's interesting that neither of these two are actually the most common ones in Russia, it's R1a
Very informative, well produced and well presented.
I have no expertise or specific knowledge on the topic, but it seems whenever complex historic processes are pressed into modern nation state and especially nation state origin stories, the result is de-coupled from any historic facts. Nobody involved in these historic events was motivated by modern nationalist concepts. Thanks for shedding some light on some of the known fatlets.
Read “Kingdom of the Slavs” by Marvo Orbini. It was a banned book by the Catholic Church. Written long ago.
They have their Vienna-Berlin sources. And you touched the Catholic Church... you're done!
@@milanilic4323 Oh yeah, I’m screwed😂
Great video. The topic is highly political for some reason and it shouldn't be. The idea of a Germanic vs Slavic founding of the Rus in anachronistic at it's core. The vikings didn't sea themselves as spreading their "superior" (both were barbaric being honest) Germanic ways to the inferior slavs. They wanted to control rich trade networks to bring themselves wealth. Its also extremely unlikely that they stayed purely Norse as well. They definitely intermingled with the local slavic population creating a hybrid culture of the two. The eastern slavs themselves didn't have a concept of a united slavic state either. They were more loyal to their local tribes and chiefs. Furthermore the influence of norse culture on the Rus is miniscule in comparison to the cultural influence of the Romans.
yeah, very true, in terms of identity, modern Swedes have next to nothing to do with Viking Age Svear, nor do modern Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians etc have much in common with the Old Rus'
It is politicized because russia uses it to claim Ukrainian territory..
Beautifully done.
I very much enjoyed your video. Thank you
Thank you Roy
amazing video, very well researched
When say genetic findings, does that include minerals found in teeth and bones?
There is legend about three brothers Czech, Lex and Rus in Poland and Czechia as well.
Is there any chance that you might go further back than this in the future, Baltic Empire? After all, the West and East Goths had quite a great impact on it all and of course the great migration with the hunnic invasion
best video on this topic in englishspeaking part of yoytube. by far. спасибо вам большое. подписался немедленно)
It's named "Roxolaniya" after a Ukrainian woman that was married to Turkish Emperor!
Very informative..1100 years ago.. that was the Song Dynasty Era in China...
is there a reliable source for "gospodin" = "húsbóndi"? sounds highly implausible to me, since the root "gospod-" is all over the place in Slavic languages (including Western ones). e.g. "Hospodin" means "Lord" in Czech when referring to God, is that also Scandinavians' fault?
No, there isn't, that's a speculation. The most probable ethymology of Gospodin/Gospodar:
"Most likely, related to Latin "hospes" (hospitable friend, host; a guest, a stranger) and comes from Indo-European "*ghosti-pot-s", in which the first component is "*ghostis" (guest), which has lost the -ti- within the word, as often happens in words of the title type;
The second component is Indo-European "*pot(i)s" (lord, ruler) (compare to related Lithuanian "pàts" (himself; man), Latin "potis" (mighty), Ancient Indian "pátiḥ" (lord, husband), which often acts as the second component of compound words, Greek "δεσ-πότησ" (master, lord, lit. "lord of the house"), Lithuanian "viẽš=pat(i)s" (lord).
The original meaning, therefore, should have been "master of the guests", which was connected with the ancient custom, according to which the guests enjoyed the protection and care of the master of the house, like other members of his family."
@@large_hadron_collider Guest is gost' (гость) in Russian
Seville isn't situated in the riber cordoba, but the Guadalquivir, the same river as Cordoba
Great video. Outside of Russian language websites it's rare for anyone non-Russian speaking to acknowledge the anti Normanist theory.
The Vikings even went to war with the Roman Empire (Constantinopel). Roman historians wrote abt that. They had long lasting trade relations with Constantinopel.
Sounds like the legend is somewhat partly true. Not surprising as Germanic warriors were a major export of Germanic regions in late antiquity and early middle ages.
32:30 We have this one in the Balkans as well!
I would be more prone to believe that these are cognates rather than loanwords
Sets and Yelkups in Siberia are the extant Scandinavian genetic line who migrated west but also east where the land bridge was disconnected >15kyr so Amerindian too I think runic was still in use and talk about sumerian lettering. Encarta documents Rurik and Rus. Lithuanian empire later dominant. Curonian or baltic viking is documented on TH-cam as fearsome even amongst Scandinavians.