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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2024
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⚡The Westcott FJ80 SE M Flash: ➡www.fjwestcott.com/products/fj80-se-m-universal-80ws-speedlight
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It was micro seconds not nano. It is milli -> micro -> nano
Yes I realize that now. I heard someone say nano on another video and then never even considered it was wrong. Luckily it doesn’t change any of the pertinent information -P
@@FStoppersYeah, it’s 0 picoseconds too! 🤓
The color shift at 13:01 is most likely due to the shutter speed being too high to capture the full flash. The power curve you discussed in your previous video is linked to the flash's light power output and the color temperature the flash produces. The first part of the flash curve tends to be cooler, and the end of the curve tends to be warmer. With strobes and most recent studio flashes, at lower power, you tend to get a more blueish light than with full power images because the flash curve is cut before you get the warmer part of it. The same goes when you switch the action or speed more of your flash on; the light tends to get cooler as the tale of the curve is being cut to optimize for short flash duration.
In your case, it's most likely due to the flash being longer than the exposure; thus, you get the early part of the curve. Adjusting the flash timing on the camera, you may get a different part of the curve, thus a different temperature and power output. That's the issue with global shutter; there are so many variables that consistency shot to shot may be difficult to reach. Try and use your flash trigger with close to empty batteries, and you may notice more significant variations because the triggering is not as snappy as it should be 😵💫
Thank you for a DETAILED & COMPREHENSIVE demonstration of Global shutter and flashes. What an excellent job!
Loved the video, thanks for the info!
Perfectly presented. I have no further questions lol.
The thought at the end about using multiple flashes at different powers hadn't occurred to me. Global shutter is unmatched for single flash outdoors, but a possible headache with multiple flashes.
I think Sony or someone will come out with a way to sync each individual flash via a firmware update OEM external flash trigger. Did he mention that Wescott’s fj80 has a multi brand use built into the menu/ firmware?
Nice breakdown of the process to find the sync delays. It will hopefully be a solved problem by the time I’m upgrading to a global shutter body.
You could've used a fixed ND. VNDs are known for color casting and sharpness issues (2 glasses instead of 1).
What I was going to say
Yeah I stopped using VND’s ages ago because there simply aren’t any that don’t have casts of some kind. Fixed or nothing.
I wish I had thought to ask if you guys were still living in Puerto Rico when we came down last October to shoot some airbnbs in Luquillo
Deceiving title ... I was not expecting this is part 2 of the global shutter video :o
Ha I know. I'm messing with the YT algorithm because it's clearly messing with us. -P
@@FStoppers I almost skipped this video, even though I've been waiting impatiently for the second part of the global shutter vs flash series :D.
Another great video, super sharp
What would you say are the nain differences between the westcott system vs profoto ... my flashes are sometimes not that reliable but profoto is just crazy expensive
Great video. Always enjoy watching the content. My only thought is you did the HSS test with a speed light so of course it was going to tank comparatively. It's def way more usable with a more powerful strobe. Certainly not perfect but usable.
Well maybe I should do that test too. I think it’s all relative. A larger light probably just changes the intensity of the flash, meaning they all will get brighter too. No matter how you shake it, going into HSS is going to kill 2-3 stops of flash power. -P
Good information, I'd love to see you use a traditional pack with flash head or a monolight in the same setting. Over the pandemic, I played with a Profoto Compact with the Pocket Wizard Flex6 and was impressed using hyper sync.
That’s going to be my next video when I get back -P
Whenever you use a variable ND or CPL, you should set a custom white balance to get consistent results. Had you done that for the control group and the ND pics, the colors would have matched (but likely some softening of image due to filter).
If you are a working professional that uses strobes all the time, the A9iii is worth it, despite the steep learning curve. But for mere mortals, it's sooooo much more practical to just use an ND with traditional sync speeds. Awesome job on this tutorial!!
Good point. I would have just done that post capture with the raw file though. -P
With the A9III/Sony HVL-F60RM2 combo, in my experience, there is no learning curve at all. Just put the flash into the hot shoe, put it in TTL mode and start shooting.
Awesome video.
Thanks for the video! Regarding the multiple flash setup, I believe there is an argument for owning/using multiple of the very same model flash, possibly at the same power setting and using the distance of the light to the subject to increase or decrease the amount of light on the subject. I‘m aware it’s not ideal and might not always be possible to get enough distance, but it’s my idea of a work around. Regards
That could work but you gotta remember, moving the light further or closer away has it's own set of variables, most notably light fall off and softness/hardness. The better way to do it, perhaps, would be to set all the flashes to the same power setting and add neutral density filters to the flashes. That's a huge pain but that would allow you to keep everything at the exact same setting but change the power regardless of how far away the flashes are or what light modifier you've attached to them. -P
@@FStoppersGood point Patrick! Solving one problem and creating a few new ones while you’re at it. For action shots I would love to shoot with the A9iii with just speedlights!
@11:30 If you had the mechanical shutter turned off and still got banding, you probably using the mechanical shutter with the electronic front curtain, yes?
Yes exactly! I wasn't sure what that mode was before doing this video and after watching an excellent video from my friend David Bergman, I felt like all my settings should have been ideal. I did another test turning off the First Curtain Shutter and the results were similar but I never got to the bottom of why that is happening. Here is David's video: th-cam.com/video/zDHR52bq3k0/w-d-xo.html -P
the 1/500th of a second sync limitation is for using TTL. In manual mode it will sync at any speed up to 1.8. Wider than 1.8 the camera limits the fastest shutter speed to 1/16,000 (which creates a variety of problems for using some GM primes wide open in bright light because of the high base ISO).
Wow good to know. I asked a few people in some of the a9iii forums but I can tell they weren’t as versed in flash. They were saying firmware was supposed to be released; any chance Sony already released it? -P
An understated update on the A9III is the colors look great. I think the vivid profile on the A7IV looks good except oranges is really oversaturates. The A9III to my eye looks more like the vivid setting except I'm sure oranges are not wildly oversaturated. Probably the same color science as the A1 and A7RV, none of which I've had the chance to use yet.
11:52 Is it TH-cam compression or is there severe banding on the left frame?
Banding. I reference it a few seconds before. I set this camera to Mechanical shutter and turned off silent shutter which is supposed to help with HSS on mirrorless cameras. I however left First Curtain E Shutter on, but after watching David Bergman's excellent video about this topic, I felt confident that these were the best settings (th-cam.com/video/zDHR52bq3k0/w-d-xo.html) . After filming this video, I did some more tests and the results were the same but I wasn't able to 100% confirm why the banding issue happened. -P
What about latency issues when using a radio transmitter with off camera flash/strobes on the A9 III?
That didn’t seem to be a problem. You can always increase the sync timing setting if it is a problem. -P
Given time, a standard will likely be devloped which automatically communicates strobe sync timing. Though, I'm sure we're years away from that.
Great video.. I think you meant to say micro-seconds not nano seconds in a few places..
It would have been helpful if these part 1 and part 2 videos were more clearly titled as such.
Ha I know, unfortunately the YT algorithm isn't rewarding titles labeled like that so I went a completely different route with this video. Maybe once the algorithm stops promoting this video I'll change it to something more useful. I'm trying to figure out why in the world our videos aren't getting many views despite our 1M subs. It doesn't make sense. -P
That would be super frustrating when you guys have worked so hard! Maybe you guys should hit up Colin & Samir or someone like Paddy Galloway? Would love you guys documenting that journey with them too if you ever connected 😊
Internal inbuilt electronic variable nd filter would solve iso problem, but no major camera manufacturer does this. Profit rules them all me too
I have the a9III and 4 Sony HVL-F60RMII and love it
I've heard this a lot. I just received my HVL-F60 today and if I have time to test it before I head to Europe, I'll try to release that video ASAP. -P
Do you have samples I can view on line because I swear these reviewers not using a Sony Flash are pissing me off!
Does the flash timing automatically adjust with the Sony lights?
@@Rocky-AR Yes and TTL works wery good.
@@markkuautio7831 Is there a TTL shutter speed limit? I didn't see any disclaimers in the A9III manual about TTL limitation.
Respect for the efort
Not sure what people expect with this tiny speedlight in HSS :)
It's all relative. I tried it on a much more powerful studio light and the results were the same. The Global Shutter always gave me more flash exposure and also allowed me to set the flash to a lower power setting. So getting a bigger light doesn't make HSS more powerful compared to a Global Shutter or ND in my experience. -P
As insane as it is, I think the solution would be pick the same ridiculous shutter speed always and then bump the ISO to compensate. I feel like this would give you the benefit of:
1: always having the same offset to the flash
2: getting even more power out of your flash output
3: easily dialing up and down the overall scene as needed.
What happens when your flash is too bright at ISO 100 and you can't go down anymore? In my first global shutter image, the flash was still too bright. Maybe 1/4th power is the sweet spot to do your method. -P
@@FStoppers I think you’d probably wanna keep your flash at something like 1/32 or 1/64. Because ultimately, the shutter speed will no longer affect the output of your flash. And because the shutter speed will no longer affect the output of your flash, the only things in the exposure triangle you would have to worry about the aperture and ISO, but I think that takes on a different lean when you’re working with a global shutter. Because we no longer have to deal with high-speed sink, your flash will always retain its full output, more or less, with any shutter speed. so you’ll really be controlling your flash, not with the flash output on the unit itself, but with your ISO.
@@JordanRoepke Congratulation, you are the one of the view who understands shooting flash with GS. You can easily test this in manual mode with the A9III/Sony HVL-F60RM2. Put the flash to 1/256, ISO 250, F/1.8 or higher, then keep shooting by increasing the shutter speed all the way to 1/80000. And surprise,surprise, they all look the same.
Yeah global shutter is kinda impressive, but for the price you can buy 10 Godox portable flashes (up to 600Ws power) and use A7IV :D.
Also what brand is that ND filter that there is such color cast? $80 filters are giving almost zero cast. And also there are fixed ND filters which does not have any color cast. But they might be pain in the but if your exposure change or you switch F-stops :D.
Setting up 10 godox flashes, 10 lightstands , 10 modifiers .. whew, thats require lots of time & work , also spaces.
Things here, some of us just wanna pack light & fast setup. Especially under bright sun,
Under same circumstances, the subject already start sweating & changes their mood under hot bright sun.
Fixed ND filter with no color cast works well, but you cant control the weather. Cloudy & such. Much hassle to change & you are losing some shots/moments.
more elements = losing sharpness, also sometimes produces unnecessary glare which also reduce image contrast.
I would be happy to pack light using ad200/ad300 under bright sun rather than ad600 (big bulky) ,
benefits here
-lighter setup
-faster settings
-save much more battery
-faster flash cycle
resulting more usable photos & not missing moments (events/wedding)
This was a Freewell variable ND filter that has served me well on other shoots. I'm not sure why I was getting different colors with it in this test. In some ways, I preferred the colors from the Freewell filter (it was warmer) but that's not what most people want.
As for setting up more lights, with the HSS method, you'd probably be fine with one 600ws light and that's probably what I'd suggest. It still doesn't change the concept that the global shutter is more efficient though so once the kinks get worked out and more cameras have a global shutter, it will be WAY more enjoyable being able to sync smaller flashes and get more effective output on your sensor. You do still have the max shutter ceiling though. Since 1/80,000th of a second is faster than many flash durations (at higher power settings at least), you should be able to get much sharper images using a global shutter synced with flash than before. No other method can produce such a fast capture at the moment. -P
@@FStoppers Yeah, when they get cheaper, then I can just get my AD200Pro to combat the Sun :D. At the moment A9III is to expensive for most of the folks.
Hope that Godox will figure out the way to talk to camera to implement "the sync tables" into the wireless trigger.
This part is kinda annoying. At least it would be great if each flash comes with sync table in the manual :D.
@@ridzbaha618 You're totally right.
But the price of the global shutter cameras is a bit too steep. And also if you have to adjust "sync time" everytime you change power of the flash, it might be annoying for the model too.
And who would use 10 flashes, I usually use 1 or 2 ... 3 tops :D. That was just a figure of speech / comparison of the prices :D.
Yes, but you can't do, what you can do with the A9III/Sony HVL-F60RM2 combo, let alone with the A9III by it self.
Does TTL work normally at faster shutter speeds?
I didn’t test that, I would think no. TTL has to do preflashes to measure exposure, but maybe they allow the sensor to do that before it fires for real? I can test it
It works fine with the A9III/SONY HVL-F60RM2 combo up to 1/80000. But using manual is more efficient, as you don't need the first flash.
Holy crap...at the two minute mark where you show all the setting needed just to get started...my eyes glazed over. I'm a Nikon shooter or I probably would have paid attention and took notes, but holy cow...if you have to do all that?? I'm impressed Patrick will all of your videos, and no doubt this one is great too, but I can't help but think that this has become MORE complex and not simpler (and that has nothing to do with your or your capability to explain complex subjects--which is extraordinary). Just for the record, i would watch you explain anything, any day, for things I want to learn. But how to use a Sony? nope, not now, not ever.
Well some of those settings you will never change back on like red eye or fill flash. Once you make those changes they will probably never change. -P
@@FStoppers Thanks Patrick. I like your content so much I would normally watch it all even if it didn't apply to my circumstances....just couldn't do it this time--not you, it's Sony.
I’m John with TSRC
I was just curious if you had the chance to try our drone.
I’d would be more happy to send you a free drone that you can test.
As a conclusion, shooting with ND filter outdoors is the best option.
I can't imagine being on a shoot and faffing around with the nanosecond syncing with my flash and camera along with all my other exposure settings. Global shutter definitely maximizes flash output but the ND method is much more straight forward and WYSIWIG.
Yeah I agree. The problem is I just never carry ND filters with me when shooting portraits and then don't always have the right one, or a variable, or the right threading.
I want to go out and do a bigger shoot with this camera and see how it performs with no pressure. -P
I guess the first party flash is worth it after all, we won't need to fiddle with the numbers.
I’m going to test this now. I have the Sony Flash -P
I think I just decided to be a natural light photographer
You forgot leaf shutter
I would like to see what's happening if you use a trigger and do not flash on the hot shoe. Can everything still sync just right at 1/80000?
Imagine in a real photo shoot you have to refer to your paper notes just to enter offset timings 😅
My first choice would be mkre powerful strobe or if I run out of power to put ND filter on.
Also dinamic range penalty is to big on global shutter and price is insane 6k 😂
Better get 2x profoto heads and a7iv 😅
I was able to sync at 1/80,000 with a wireless trigger. It didn’t seem to affect anything but even if it did, you can just set the sync timing out further.
Keep in mind, the A7iv can only go as fast as 1/8000 of a second so that’s a pretty big limit too. -P
Yeah constantly having to change the sync timing would drive me insane.
Off topic... I miss the covid series. :)
I miss having Covid twice a year 😬-P
Can someone explain why ND with regular sync speed under performs in coparisson with regular sync speed global shutter? That does not make sense. Unless 1/8000th captures more light with global shutter from flash. But if regular sync is 1/250th and there is no rolling shutter how does it not exposses for all flash duration whe the whole sensor is expossed. Ant flash t0.1 is around 1/220th thats perfect because it is almost the same as a shutter.
Watch my first video about this. t.1 times for within 1/250th but not 1/4000th. As you start to decrease exposure with shutter and ND, the amount of flash you capture isn’t linear (but it is with ND and shutter). -P
This is a good video...but not as good as drilling holes in printer cartridges. ;)
That video has now become our most popular video of all time. Such a weird way to reward the algorithm. -P
The crazy thing about the Global Shutter power advantage is reframing it in terms of gear. If you can get a 3 stop advantage, what you used to carry big 600 strobes for can be duplicated by a 100 kit. Especially when you consider action shots where you had to be in HSS regardless and now you have an even bigger advantage. Consistency is an issue with having to dial in the adjustments. I'm sure in practice you'd just set it to something like 200 and just correct visually while accepting you aren't truly getting full power.
That's zero micro second not nano second
Yep, I misspoke -P
If that video thumbnail isn't screaming to have someone 'photoshop' something into it, I don't know what is!
DO IT! -P
😂😂😂
First comment
As I said 3 Month ago, just forget all the 3rd party flashes for the time beeing. All these flashes are to dumb to understand the sophisticated flash protocol that SONY uses in there newer flashes. SONY also uses a dedicated processor in there flashes to handle the flash protocol. They work in TTL and Manual mode. I prefer the manual mode, as it allows you to adjust and match the flash power individually , when using them all together on your set. You even save some energy, as you don't need the first flash as in TTL. You can also display and change all the settings directly in camera, which is very convenient. You can go as low as 1/256 energy, 1/80000, F/1.8, ISO 250 and Hi+ and still have sufficient light. You can easily set different ratios between all the flashes. It works perfect. No fiddling. Just switch it on and start shooting. I shot more than 30'000 pictures in sports events and concerts in the past 3 month with the A9III, and about 1000 with flash in Hi+ mode on special occasions. Previously you needed a flash in the $10'000+ range. Forget this table thing. The flash manufacturers need to build smarter flashes, that can cope with GS. The conclusion is, that the current flashes are to dumb to cope with such advanced cameras as the A9III, using global shutters.
I’m excited to test this when I get back home. I have the Sony flash and will compare it with other flashes. -P
nanoseconds ?
wow, now that I look at it closer, it's micro second isn't it? I heard someone else call it nano second and it stuck but that isn't right. -P
$6K??? Seriously???
For the first global shutter full frame mirror less camera that can catch stuff 99.9% of all other cameras can’t catch .. absolutely.. it’s also a hell of a good video camera despite the global shutter’s bad rep as having less dynamic range.. it’s a game changer for those of us that have to shoot events in weird lighting. It’s definitely not for everyone .
Patrick, you have always been the technical side of Fstoppers. Lee has zero patience to think this deep about flash and technical filters. Great content but can you Please let someone else find the thumbnails for the videos?....you had a contest while back about, "Cringe"..this thumbnail is one of that category. You are a solid good Dude, but Not a kissy face is needed, perhaps better your place is behind the camera? I didn't want click on this video because of the cringe factor. But, when you talk is all good. --sorry bro.. Some styling on your wild hair and proper lighting - you are Fstoppers, not MarketingStoppers I get it, but Dahang, a bit of a lift here is necessary. A bit of a consultation with an agency is necessary. You two cannot just post videos anymore without a guide. That is why your viewership and subscribes are down. Perhaps a new approach, a video like this both You and Lee review the subject, get his thoughts, then you divine to the details...followed up by, Hey Lee, does this change your perception? Would you take time to attend what Patrick points out, etc etc.... I dunno you guys have "it", but clearly are not doing it right.....
Sony, again... It makes me sick.
Because you don't like Sony or because they are innovating the game more than the others? -P
Lmaoooo