Yeah the 600’s were just built for power, unlike todays economy bikes. My r6 has ceramic bore liners and titanium valves. They are just built different and more highly strung😀
To pit it simply 600s are not as good on the streets as other bikes but the one place they shine is on the track but most people don't ever do track days they usually ride their bikes on the streets so they're making bikes that are built for where people actually ride ride them on the street like the R7 and R9. My 600 is a full on race bike and I only ride it when I'm doing a track day. If I'm riding on the street I ride my MT10 which is way more fun than any 600 could ever be on the street. You have to be on a track to truly experience the R6 the way it is meant to be enjoyed and where it performs the best taking turns as fast as you can wich will 100% get you hurt or killed riding like that on the road. When the R9 comes out alot of people will be trading in their 600s mark my words that new R9 is going to sell like crazy because it's made to be awesome on the streets where most people actually ride.
Longer stroke doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s more rotational mass but it does mean that the piston will have to travel farther and thus faster for every rotation of the crankshaft. More force on the change of direction at the top and bottom of the stroke, harder on bearings etc. Basically, a shorter stroke can rev higher without tearing itself apart.
I’m no expert but I think you’re both correct… however: Force=Mass x Velocity^2. So while longer a longer stroke might equal larger rotational mass, faster piston speed through each stroke at any given RPM will have a much more dramatic effect on the force the engine needs to withstand as it is squared! :)
Yes, small engines are light and can rev high, therefore having high specific output. But the real reason 600s perform so well is for a long time they were the manufacturer's battleground of using as much racing tech as possible to build the fastest, most track optimized, highest performing street bike. Lots of R+D has gone into this class in the last couple decades.
@@Corbots80“This”? What 😂 Everything about his explanation is wrong. Nothing in his comment explained why some 600cc bikes are faster than some 750cc bikes.
There's a little more too it than just a short stroke allowing it to spin faster. They also have camshaft profiles and cylinder heads designed to optimize airflow at that speed, sacrificing efficiency at lower RPM as a trade off.
You are correct. My old Concours (1000cc) made less peak power than the ninja 900 that the engine was based on due primarily to smaller carbs and the cam profile. The trade off was that I had more down low torque for pulling all her weight as well as luggage and a passenger. Was a great camping bike for the NorCal mountains!
Really, in general these bikes are designed to be highly strung. All of these are the design details that achieve that effect. From the difference in cylinder and valve count, down to the cam lobes.
Some of the BEST times and most fun riding were on a 600 . after having a 750 and liter bikes. So I had to go back and get ANOTHER 600 sportbike. No regrets at ALL
Yup, i've had both and the 600s are more frenetic. 1000s on the road are like... rev out first gear and you're well into "this is no longer a ticket" speed. 600s with the shorter and closer gearing give you a lot more to do and working for the power is more fun. 150-200hp on a litre bike is less useful if you can't even use it in first gear without being so far over the speed limit or safe speed for a road.
@@JethroRose That's the reason I went overboard and went from a CBR600RR to a Ducati 748S which have short gearing for a sportsbike, like around 110km/h first gear, the CBR went 125km/h in first gear. Also I had more enjoyment riding my WR450F supermotard compared to my CBR600RR, and that has like 50hp and really short gearing.
Lol never had shift lights, we did it by feel and sound. Personally when redlining my eyes are focused hundreds of yards ahead cause by 3rd gear you are coveting football field in seconds
@@frank.l181 I drool a little every time haha. Mine's an 06. Last year of mine, first year of yours. Never ridden one newer. My buddies 01 F4I is amazing too.
Hey Everyone, thanks again for watching, just want to clarify the ending of the video. Japanese manufacturers are no longer selling their 600cc bikes in Europe due to the Euro 5/6 standards. 600 Sport Bikes can still be bought in the Asian Market, and in the US, you lucky dogs!
That is not good 600s are the most fun on the road with their high revving engines, still they have gotten too fast like most bikes but they are the most amazing motorcycles
@Police Corruption I meant ZZR1100 not 1000, the problem I have is the power I don't care how good a rider you are that is too much for the road, of course you don't ride like a nut 99% of the time but at some stage you are going to really let the bike go and that is when you can get into trouble. Even the latest Harleys that handle and brakelikes dogs are producing well over 100HP and that is frightening on a bike like that.
@Police Corruption some of us like to "thrash the hell out of it" as you put it. I like working for it instead of it being effortless. Effortless things aren't as rewarding. 150mph is enough for me, but I understand some people want to go 180+ or the magical 200+. If I lived in a low traffic area with very straight roads, I might consider a 1000. But we have a lot of hills and traffic in the city I live in, so it just isn't going to happen. I realize in the time it takes me to go 120 you can make 160- but getting to a controlled state quickly in the event of an emergency reaction is significantly harder, especially on a heavier bike.
600s are like a drug that quickly have you spiraling down the path of obtaining more speed and power. My first bike was a 125cc dirt bike. Then I transitioned to a 250cc dirt bike. R6 was next and not even a year later, I am outside acting bad on a ZX-14. My R6 has by far been my favorite though because the power on the 1400 is just SCARY. It gets to 100 MPH at the flick of my wrist. Super scary. So I'm looking forward to the R7 and possibly that continue to do me some justice. Stay safe out here, fellas.
yup i agree . i have a blackbird and a gsxr 750 . the 750 takes corners "at my pace" a good 20 mph quicker , tho the blackbird would destroy the 750 in a straight line . big powerful bikes dont interest me any more because for most riding they are like automatics , 2nd or 3rd gear is all you need , my max in second was 110 mph on the bird lol .
That was an extremely professional, accurate and technically competent discussion of engine design - one of the best I have ever seen on YT. You directed your words so carefully and with such parsimony that you didn't trail off into the weeds, yet kept it simple enough to be accessible to the general public. Great work!
There are no explosions in a normally operating combustion engine. If this occurs, it's called knocking and the ECU immediately retards the spark to prevent it.
The reason high revving engines are not used in trucks is mainly the narrow powerband, cost and durability. There is no physical reason that a low geared high revving engine could not be used to pull heavy loads. Motorcycle manufacturers could NOT easily increase torque in high revving motorbike engines, that's just nonsense. A motogp engine has very short rebuild intervals, does not meet emissions regulations and costs an absurd amount of money. Also, the torque figures are not that high: they reach their high output mainly through high revs. A standard KTM Superduke has more torque than any motogp bike in production.
@@tobiascarlen A person on a bicycle can produce more torque at the crank than a typical economy car... But he did a good job explaining the trade off between low end torque and high end power. Cut him a little slack for keeping it simple and to the point. Not talking in circles, is a dying art among the internet generations.
@@tobiascarlen I'm a professional mechanic and didn't cringe at anything he said. I could see where he was erring on the side of not going into other tangents. I think that he did a good job staying withing the scope of the video.
@@toxicotwenty9821 Undersquare engines have power and torque lower in rpm range and more reciprocating mass...lower redline. Oversquare engines have less mass and rev easier into higher rpms where more power is available. Harley=....long stroke low rpm torque monster...New Panamerican engine very much opposite.
@@matthewhaworth5935 I think that depends on the function you intend that lever to serve. Because In a high Revving application the longer Con-Rod is no longer very effective...
The 750 class used to be a lot more popular into the 1990s but once the 750cc Superbike racing was eliminated development was shifted to other classes. Honda stopped making racing 750s except for the exotic models like the RC30 as did Yamaha with their 0W01. Kawaski's ZX7 made it into the 2000s but no one was really buying it as it hadn't been competitive in years. The Gixxer was still available and was so quick that its performance was in literbike territory but it had no real competition. The only 750s left were the sport touring leaning VFR 750. The class just died on the vine
By then 600 was as fast as heavier 750, and if you wanted more power folks got 1000cc. Got squeezed out as 600s from mid 80s started running 750 numbers
The 750 class was a product of the mid 70’s. Nearly all the brands premier bikes were 750. Honda CB750, Kawasaki H2750, Suzuki GT750, Yamaha 750 to name the most popular by Ducati, Norton etc all had that size for the #1 model.
I mean even today you can buy a Gixxer 750. They didn´t really change much in the last 15 Years but honestly there´s no need to. I been saying it for years,, the 750 is the perfect Sweetspot. Don´t get me wrong 600 cc Bikes are really fast, more than you would need on public roads. But they lack Torque and power down low. Once you get in the Power Band you are already going faster than the Speed Limit. With a 750 you just get that extra Grunt down low so you can pull nicely without going bat shit crazy fast. It´s a shame that no other Brand still makes Bikes in this Category. I was hoping the R7 would be something alike but with "only" 72 hp it kinda lacks altho it´s still a really nice bike for Daily Riding with the occasional Track Day
Everyone had their formative riding experiences on a 600cc. My dad's 2004 CBR600RR was crucial to my riding development and progress to a 1000cc later on. But the 600 is still the most honest and simple yet still very capable.
Yes guys, I know the GSXR750 is faster than a 600 sport bike, its about the only exception to the rule. This video is for people who are struggling to understand why bigger engines don't necessarily mean faster bikes, and that's especially true in the case of 600cc sport bikes. Basically 600s are faster than just about any 650 - 750, apart from the Gixxer750. Also, to clarify the ending of the video. Japanese manufacturers are no longer selling their 600cc bikes in Europe due to the Euro 5/6 standards. 600 Sport Bikes can still be bought in the Asian Market, and in the US, you lucky dogs!
Displacement is not the issue. 600cc supersports are "Supersports" first. They were developed from the ground up to be track focused. The displacement is secondary, if they produced 500, 600, 650, 730cc (whatever) real Supersport bikes, they would always be faster that their road focused counterparts.
Ok, I was about to say. Personally I think the GSXR750 is the best sport bike. I just wish it would get all the electronics that the liter bikes do. Then it would be unstoppable.
luv it when u imediately showed the zx14r dash while using the word "torque"...this mighty beast is a torque monster. am a busa guy but 14roll like a train.
This was the best explanation/demonstrstion I've seen to explain bore/stroke, how the actual configuration applies to actual torque, revs and horsepower. Thanks!
I get what you're saying as there two completely different engines, however it's now their new mid weight sport bike, so in eccence, it is the spiritual successor to the R6, at least here in the UK where you can no longer buy the R6 new ☹
I don’t see how this would benefit Yamaha at all. How do they expect to compete at all with the other manufacturers mid level super sports with literally 35% less horsepower? I’ve owned a fz07 they are fast but not nearly as quick as a r6.
@@kyzer97320 I do understand what you mean, as they did the same thing with the R3 and MT03, but I'm sure that's what Yamaha are going for to cut costs. People seeing R7 and thinking, "ah it must be a better bike than the R6" when that's simply not true, considering it shares more similarities with an MT07 than an R6. So yes I do understand what you guys are saying, but I still stand by what I said, as in the UK and Europe, the R7 is the only midweight sport bike we can now buy, I'd always recommend and R6 over an R7, but we simply don't get that choice anymore ☹
That's why I love my Suzuki GSR600, the acceleration for a 600cc is insane, 13.5sec from 0-200km/h and the sound of a high rev engine is just music for my ears :)
first time i rode a 600 (2010ish GSXR) i thought it was under powered at first.. took me a second to realize you just need to rev it to the moon for it to move at a decent speed ride SMCR now, single cylinder 690cc totally different beast
for a street bike I still prefer the liter bikes for not having to down shift to explode in traffic. stuff comes up and maybe 1 gear down boom its all behind you. So a liter or more mine was a Vee twin sport bike it just makes for more fun.
There is a lot more to this equation why 600cc can be faster than 1000cc. Smaller motor means lighter bike HP/Kg, higher gear ratio, both in the gearbox and on the sprocket is also a factor. The fact is that they don't have the same top speed but set up the motorcycle for the lower end of the power curve. The market needs 600cc class that is sporty but don't necessarily have too much power, for people who are new to the motorcycle world, as a experience builder, before they go on a more powerful bikes. I loved my 1978 Kawasaki KZ650, it was a good sturdy bike with not to much power and were excellent as a beginners motorcycle. Then i got a 1992 Kawasaki ZZR1100 and that would have killed me if i hadn't have the prior experience, that bike is fast. And today i own Yamaha R1, 190 Kg and has 160 Hp and i love it...
When I bought my ZX6R new in the UK in 2021 there was only another 3 left for sale I didnt want to start on a 600 but im glad I did they are the best fun.
I'm afraid that none of this is really the case at all. The reason 600's are faster in most cases, is because they were developed to be so. Think of the original 750's - The YZF750, ZXR750, RC30's & RC45's... The reason 600's became so powerful and fast is through development and technology. You cannot compare a modern 650 (twins in most cases) to a high-reving 'Supersport' bike. They are literally from different worlds.
@@reposter6434 Are you Fkn insane 😂 Bikes are faster nowadays than back in the day. Especially considering the same displacement. Look at the HP ratings. 2023 R1 has near 200hp 😂 maybe 150’s in the 90’s
Engine torque doesn't matter when pulling heavy, just wheel torque. So you can replace a 200 hp truck engine with a 200 hp 1000cc and with right gearing the result will be the same. Regardless if you are pulling heavy or want to go fast power is the only thing that matters.
Yes and no. Yes it doesn't matter. No, it matters if the one driving it is human. The torque on the superbike comes out very late. With 200kg weight it's fine. With tons of weight your brain will explode with the sound. I've traveled with my gf on a 2 stroke bike and I'll never do it again.
@@britishpersonfpv6794 No, he's correct. If gearing is accounted for, a 200hp bike engine will pull the same weight, at the same speed as a 200hp diesel engine. It's just not going to last very long doing it.
Maybe in theory but you're not accounting for the rotational mass of the transmission necessary to put the power to the ground. In the case of a 200hp bike engine you'd lose so much to the size of the trans needed to get that to the ground that there would be little left to actually do the work
@Goblin RIDES I beg to differ with you, but the first true 600cc Class sport bike wasn't the Kawasaki GPZ 600R, it was the Yamaha FJ600 (I believe it was called the XJ600 in Europe). When it was first introduced in late 1983 for the 1984 model year it was all the rage for several reasons. First, Yamaha was the first manufacture to market a 600cc middle-weight bike. Second, they took the reliable 528cc engine from the XJ550 Seca and Maxim that produced 54HP, then bumped up the displacement to 598cc increasing it to 72HP. Then 3rd, they shoehorned that engine into a square tube aluminum frame that was originally designed for a 400cc engine that was sold in the Japanese domestic market. And 4th, it was the first fully faired replica racer middle-weight. All those things gave it a tremendous advantage when introduced that took the other manufacturers completely by surprise. I know first-hand, because I bought and FJ600 in 1984 and loved it! It was just as powerful as my old '78 CB750F that it replaced, but was lighter, faster, handled tremendously better, and stopped better. The added bonus was they were thousands of dollars cheaper than any new 750 or larger that was forced to add on the "Harley Tax" to their MSRP.
All R bikes rews high as they are built for a high degree of tune, small sylindervolum can rew more as they has lighter parts, max tourque is on the rpm sylinder-filling are highest, Max hp is at higher rews with less sylinderfilling but incresed numbers of combustions/second, Max hp is at the rpm where sylinder-filling drops to a extend so power decrese
Had an R6 and an R1. R6 was faster to carve with forsure. But for most riding I did R1 was more enjoyable. It actually had a mid range, and who doesn't like more power period :) and the R1 was much better for a passenger
My Royal Enfield GT 650’s engine is so, so different from an R6. Hard to believe both bikes are 600s, and that the RE actually has *more* displacement 😳 this video is great though, I’ve been wondering about this!
I wish to have a 600 super sport … but in Germany they are getting really rare since they aren’t really sold new .. the used ones are getting really expensive
Had a dinosaur built UK origin 600cc Norton in the classic era. Lived in a large southern university town and consistently destroyed everything in the quarter and on the top end. But now I like Triumph triple liter bikes. I still like quick. -Matt’s dad
I'm lucky to have a 1987 gsxr1100h! Years Back I had a yammy yzf600r, it didn't have much torque, but get the revs up and it's fast! So 20 years on, I can only imagine how these bikes have progressed! I know not to offer them a race!!! 😅😎
Bought 1985 ninja new in 85, best bike i ever owned. Have owned 20 plus bikes over the yrs. But had more grins giggles and out right fun on the baby ninja. I am smaller guy 5 7 130lbs, in its day that bike would run with 750s any where but top speed, but only a few mph difference.
I found this very well done, so I sub'd to see what else you've posted. Thanks for a good vid! Edit: and no crappy background music while you're talking to us!
You would need stronger and heavy joints, the only manufacture that has done it is Ducati with the Panigale that revs at 16500 rpm but the valves don't use springs and needs shorter mantenance schedule
Liter bikes and things like the hayabusa and zx14 are also over square. They all rev beyond 11k. At some point the power becomes too much to bring to market. And diminishing returns start to hit larger cc engines harder.
The JUN Synergy V8 2.4L is a good example of this use case: Stroke : 83.0 x 55.4 (mm). Compression 12.3 : 1. Displacement 2397cc Max Power output 367.5ps / 10680rpm Application: Subaru BRZ
It's really more so the fact that 600 is a limiting class in many locations whete license type and/or taxation changes, so they squeeze as much as possible from the 600 as it's the biggest that many people can go regardless of price, so they shove as much engineering time into those 600s as they can, as opposed to 650s and 700s, which won't sell as many units, and people that buy them could step up to a 1000 if they really cared about power that much.
yeah its true, its like some sort of agreement that they will classing sportbike intended for race in 600 and 1000s and they maxed out their performance there, and any other bike they made outside that is generally not a racing sport bike..
@@JPearlLapis That's absolutely right but I'm not interested in going really fast,just get me up to the speed limit quickly and yes I too have a ninja 650(2022 model)-absolutely love the bike.
You've completely skipped the number of valves allowing the air-fuel mixte to go inside the cylinder of two vs four cylinders. The compression ratio is also higher for super sports bikes.
@@lillnemo1 Ok so let me rephrase what I mean. You take the heads surface of the bores for a two-cylinder and the head surface of the bores for a four-cylinder for the same displacement. Wich one will allow to squeeze more valves surface to let the air and the exhaust get in and out of the engine?
Fun is relative. Fun where? Lots of fun on the track where you can stay in the very narrow, top end power band. For the street, torque and a wide power band is king.
Im upgrading from a ninja 400r to a ZX-6R in the near future. Super excited but very scared of dropping it. Very glad I started with a 400 because I am a bit short and had to learn to tippy toe balance the weight and then learn to ride in different shoes as I adapted but within months I wanted more power. This will be a difficult transition because I’m going from less than 50hp to 127hp holy shit but my experience on the 400 will be incredibly useful. I have a hard time even getting my 400 to 105mph because it doesn’t have too much get up and go 😢 which I want on the freeway. I desire the power to just blow out of the way If someone merges into me and breaking isn’t a safe option. I also want to go fast. Rly fast 🏍 💨
You may want to upgrade to the ninja650 instead-remember 0 to 60 mph(0 to 100kph)is about the same for both the ZX-6R and the Ninja650.The Ninja650 is capable of 130 mph the ZX-6R is capable of 160 mph-do you really need or want to hit 160 mph on a public highway?Also you better have a good job to pay for the insurance on the ZX-6R which is significantly higher than the 650 not to mention the purchase price of this bike is several thousand more than the 650.
@@glenmcintire3106 In the 'real world' the public roads and highways aren't racetracks either-ninja 650 is a better balanced bike for the 'real world' with much much lower insurance rates,better gas mileage,lower maintenance costs,better seating position for touring as well and still enough power in the low to mid range to get you to the legal speed limits quickly.
@@RobertNixAlternativeArtist Yeah, she said she wants to go really fast. She never said she wanted a practical/affordable bike. Every person I know that owns a 650 wished they owned my bike instead.
750 triple>600-4 or 1000-4 IMO. Triple is a good balance of torque and revs. If you need a crapload of overall power, go turbo. Turbo FZ07s can do 140WHP on E85, and that's a relatively low revving twin. Imagine a proper triple even of the same displacement that revs 3000rpm higher and due to the firing interval, acts MUCH more efficiently on the turbocharger's turbine wheel. I almost kinda want the US foreign motorcycle displacement embargo to return so manufacturers make 750 turbo bikes again. A modern 750 turbo would be insane.
I remember when 500cc two strokes were making 200hp and doing powerwheelies so much so that riders never hit the power band because not even shifting up put the nose down...
Two stroke engines have massive potential. Its sad to see how they slowly get ditched by everyone because of fuel economy. I have a Suzuki Katana AY50 with 70cc cylinder producing 18 HP running on nitro-methane and ethanol.
Fascinating video. Thank you. High toque in a motorcycle usually means more power at lower revs. I have ridden a Suzuki GSX 750 and now have a BMWR1250R which is a high torque motocycle. t has superb acceleration at low revs, and one just cannot rev the engine hard like my Suzuki on the road. It is a different riding style. What is better? The BMW is more relaxed for road use, yet is also fast, but does not have the fun of the Suzuki engine.
So it’s all about the way the engine is built and it’s desired purpose.. So what about a 650/700 with a shorter stroke, more width - built for rpm. Then it would be faster right?
Torque: the ability of the engine to move the bike. Horse: the ability to develop speed. the truck analogy used is slightly flawed in that, tractors don't always have a trailer on them, and they can accelerate faster than people think without them, the engines are designed to haul that is why they are built the way they are, in tandem with their transmissions and a good operator, you can float the gears and out pace a lot. ps, callng the R7 a middle weight is not very indicative of the truth. the R7 is junk in comparison to the R6. putting the MT 07 engine into the frame of the R6 is a marketing and selling ploy done by yamaha to cater to a casual market. it is, quite literally a different bike.
Left a young aggressive guy on a 600 CBR.. in the streets after 5 turns and a few straights with my 1100 GSX/R…I can turn as hard as him but with the straights ….see ya !!
Ive had them all ninja 250cc kawasaki and yamaha and honda 600cc suzuki gsxr 750cc honda cbr and zx10r 1000cc kawasaki zx12r 1200cc and a hayabusa 1300cc and my favorite for the street is a 600cc now for freeway high speed pulls 1000cc baby!!!! 💪🏻😎
If motorcycle manufacturers could increase the torque of their engines significantly, they would! But they can't... a naturally aspirated engine can generally produce between 100-115 Nm per liter (the Ferrari 458 produces 120 Nm per liter, in a very specific rev range, where the volumetric efficiency of the engine is above 100 %, due to timing of the pulses in the intake, cramming air into the cylinder at a pressure that is above the ambient pressure). The only way motorcycle manufacturers will be able to increase the torque significantly, is by increasing the displacement or by using forced induction. MotoGP machines are not producing much more torque than a street going liter bike, they are just producing that torque at a lot higher engine speed, thus producing a lot more power.
The motogp bikes have close to 300 hp. The average liter bike is sub or around 200 hp, with the exception of a few more expensive models. The motogp bikes Rev to around 14-16k rpm tops which is around the same as every liter bike you can buy now, yet they have substantially more hp and torque than the street bikes we can buy.
@@th3frs3h NO dude is right moto gp bike makes similar torque to sports bike which you can buy for road aplication around 120 nm but they have this torque higher than road liter bike feg bmw s1000 rr 201 hp have at 13-14 k rpm depend on verison with max 113 nm at 10-11 k rpm where moto gp ducati feg achieve 275 hp at around 17 k rpm for which is required 120 nm diffrenc i torque between moto gp bike and road superbikes are very small 3-5% what really generat ediffrenc in how they can accelerate and how much top speed they can achieve beside lower weight with also typically lighter driver (typical moto gp rider is 60-70 kg vs typical road superbike rider is 80-120 kg ) is POWER .
Torque isn’t real because we have gears. The reasons trucks can ‘pull’ is because they have a higher percentage of their peak power at low rpms whereas a 600 sports bike has a smaller amount of its power at low rpms but can rapidly rev to its peak power band
The only thing I never understood is why they dont just use the big “1000cc” engine blocks and just shorten the stroke to 600cc. That would mean the current cbr1000rrr with its 81 mm bore / 48.5 mm stroke to a 29.1 mm stroke in the 600 version that could then rev to 21k at a normal mean piston speed of 21 m/s
The gsxr600 and cbr600 aren't discontinued in the USA at least. They r still manufacturing both of them. I own a gsxr 600 and was just at the dealership the other day they still had both and it was the latest models for 2023 but for the gsxr 600 latest doesn't mean anything as the bike has been the exact same for over a decade only changes would be different color schemes. But it's crazy how my 12 year old 2011 gsxr looks exactly the same as the 2023 😂
I made a reverse test drive with a friend of mine who owns a ZX6R and I own a SV1000S. Result, I keep my torquey SV1000S and he sold his ZX6R for a 3 cylinder Triumph. Horsepower is not everything, torque is also good
If you ride two up you need the larger displacement for a comfortable ride. I’m not talking straight out acceleration but enjoying a good high speed ride. You need the torque but also the wheel base for the passenger to have some reasonable comfort. In my day I had a Honda 900F and a CB1100R. The hot shot mid range bikes at that time were the 500 Yamaha and Suzuki two strokes. We had a bunch of guys who would get together every two weeks for a 100-120 mile ride. A lot of high capacity bikes but also a few of the YZ and Gamma’s. Cannot remember either going two up it the 900-1100 range bikes were always two up. Each has its purpose - the mid range were as quick, quicker on the twisty’s, as the big bikes but at the end of the ride there was a noticeable difference in the fatigue levels.
Had a zx9 . Very fun in a straight line but quite like a 70 s dodge, it will stop if you try and kinda corner ok . 11 fractures collapsed lung and bruised heart later , I still miss my zx9
Nice explanation & I didn't know but I'm not looking for a street bike, a Dual Sport that is on the road about 80%/20% but I saw this & thought I should get a look. IT's true about the 600's all but disappearing, Kawasaki is in that alone I believe? Again, ty for the lesson. peace
So the simple answer was? All I got was that they were more popular! Not sure how that works. The torque v rpm v stroke length v Hp was the complicated bit, but easier to follow. PS. Its no an explosion in the cylinder, is a rapid burn.
Yeah the 600’s were just built for power, unlike todays economy bikes. My r6 has ceramic bore liners and titanium valves. They are just built different and more highly strung😀
You forgot the most important point your R6 has 2 extra cylinders.
I don't know what magic my 600RR has in it, but I definitely don't need anything faster!
@@johnroe3915 haha 😂lel
Built for power that they don't have. Your R6 is a gutless wonder until it's revved to the moon. It's like a two stroke without mixing the gas 😂
To pit it simply 600s are not as good on the streets as other bikes but the one place they shine is on the track but most people don't ever do track days they usually ride their bikes on the streets so they're making bikes that are built for where people actually ride ride them on the street like the R7 and R9. My 600 is a full on race bike and I only ride it when I'm doing a track day. If I'm riding on the street I ride my MT10 which is way more fun than any 600 could ever be on the street. You have to be on a track to truly experience the R6 the way it is meant to be enjoyed and where it performs the best taking turns as fast as you can wich will 100% get you hurt or killed riding like that on the road. When the R9 comes out alot of people will be trading in their 600s mark my words that new R9 is going to sell like crazy because it's made to be awesome on the streets where most people actually ride.
Longer stroke doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s more rotational mass but it does mean that the piston will have to travel farther and thus faster for every rotation of the crankshaft. More force on the change of direction at the top and bottom of the stroke, harder on bearings etc. Basically, a shorter stroke can rev higher without tearing itself apart.
More metal required to make a longer stroke = more rotational mass.
I’m no expert but I think you’re both correct… however:
Force=Mass x Velocity^2.
So while longer a longer stroke might equal larger rotational mass, faster piston speed through each stroke at any given RPM will have a much more dramatic effect on the force the engine needs to withstand as it is squared! :)
@@willpalmer9908 Kinetic Energy = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2, Force = mass x acceleration
@@Cptjonmiller KE=1/2mv^2
@@blake_nivelt_389 right I forgot the 1/2
Yes, small engines are light and can rev high, therefore having high specific output. But the real reason 600s perform so well is for a long time they were the manufacturer's battleground of using as much racing tech as possible to build the fastest, most track optimized, highest performing street bike. Lots of R+D has gone into this class in the last couple decades.
This
@@Corbots80 Nuttz
@@Corbots80“This”? What 😂
Everything about his explanation is wrong. Nothing in his comment explained why some 600cc bikes are faster than some 750cc bikes.
It's nothing to do with that.
There's a little more too it than just a short stroke allowing it to spin faster. They also have camshaft profiles and cylinder heads designed to optimize airflow at that speed, sacrificing efficiency at lower RPM as a trade off.
0
I think he's talking to the lowest common denominator in the room.
You are correct. My old Concours (1000cc) made less peak power than the ninja 900 that the engine was based on due primarily to smaller carbs and the cam profile. The trade off was that I had more down low torque for pulling all her weight as well as luggage and a passenger. Was a great camping bike for the NorCal mountains!
Exactly
Really, in general these bikes are designed to be highly strung. All of these are the design details that achieve that effect. From the difference in cylinder and valve count, down to the cam lobes.
Some of the BEST times and most fun riding were on a 600 . after having a 750 and liter bikes. So I had to go back and get ANOTHER 600 sportbike. No regrets at ALL
Ha, same!
Yup, i've had both and the 600s are more frenetic. 1000s on the road are like... rev out first gear and you're well into "this is no longer a ticket" speed. 600s with the shorter and closer gearing give you a lot more to do and working for the power is more fun. 150-200hp on a litre bike is less useful if you can't even use it in first gear without being so far over the speed limit or safe speed for a road.
@@JethroRose That's the reason I went overboard and went from a CBR600RR to a Ducati 748S which have short gearing for a sportsbike, like around 110km/h first gear, the CBR went 125km/h in first gear. Also I had more enjoyment riding my WR450F supermotard compared to my CBR600RR, and that has like 50hp and really short gearing.
Same here… went from 2012 R1 to A 636 old School 2003 model 🤷♂️
Gsxr750 is the best 600 ever made..... Factory race 600. Perfection
There's a terrifying joy you get when you see the shift light on a 600RR. Amazing machines!
so flickable
Lol never had shift lights, we did it by feel and sound. Personally when redlining my eyes are focused hundreds of yards ahead cause by 3rd gear you are coveting football field in seconds
@@rt2255 Amazingly, our eyes have this wonderful feature called peripheral vision, and that bright, strobing red light is plenty visible in that area.
I agree, l have 07' cbr600rr. It still brings a smile to my face hitting the red line! Lol.
@@frank.l181 I drool a little every time haha. Mine's an 06. Last year of mine, first year of yours. Never ridden one newer. My buddies 01 F4I is amazing too.
Hey Everyone, thanks again for watching, just want to clarify the ending of the video. Japanese manufacturers are no longer selling their 600cc bikes in Europe due to the Euro 5/6 standards. 600 Sport Bikes can still be bought in the Asian Market, and in the US, you lucky dogs!
That is not good 600s are the most fun on the road with their high revving engines, still they have gotten too fast like most bikes but they are the most amazing motorcycles
@Police Corruption They are amazing but and I understand that as I have been on a ZZR1000 years ago but no way way too fast for me on the street.
@Police Corruption I meant ZZR1100 not 1000, the problem I have is the power I don't care how good a rider you are that is too much for the road, of course you don't ride like a nut 99% of the time but at some stage you are going to really let the bike go and that is when you can get into trouble. Even the latest Harleys that handle and brakelikes dogs are producing well over 100HP and that is frightening on a bike like that.
@Police Corruption some of us like to "thrash the hell out of it" as you put it. I like working for it instead of it being effortless. Effortless things aren't as rewarding. 150mph is enough for me, but I understand some people want to go 180+ or the magical 200+. If I lived in a low traffic area with very straight roads, I might consider a 1000. But we have a lot of hills and traffic in the city I live in, so it just isn't going to happen. I realize in the time it takes me to go 120 you can make 160- but getting to a controlled state quickly in the event of an emergency reaction is significantly harder, especially on a heavier bike.
@Police Corruption just go 180mph when you need to wake up :)
600s are like a drug that quickly have you spiraling down the path of obtaining more speed and power. My first bike was a 125cc dirt bike. Then I transitioned to a 250cc dirt bike. R6 was next and not even a year later, I am outside acting bad on a ZX-14. My R6 has by far been my favorite though because the power on the 1400 is just SCARY. It gets to 100 MPH at the flick of my wrist. Super scary. So I'm looking forward to the R7 and possibly that continue to do me some justice. Stay safe out here, fellas.
yup i agree . i have a blackbird and a gsxr 750 . the 750 takes corners "at my pace" a good 20 mph quicker , tho the blackbird would destroy the 750 in a straight line .
big powerful bikes dont interest me any more because for most riding they are like automatics , 2nd or 3rd gear is all you need , my max in second was 110 mph on the bird lol .
I started on a 90cc dirtbike then 125cc dirtbike then a 125 road bike now I have a Yamaha fz6r and I do indeed feel like I need more power 😂
R7 is only 78hp it's nothing compared to an R6 unfortunately
there is no such thing as "to much power"...
@@yanceyboyz yeah the r7 is not the r6 replacement. It’s more of a halfway point between an r3 and r6
The Yamaha R7 is not a replacement for the R6 and the R7 is incredibly pedestrian compared to a full blown superbike like the R6 or CBR 600RR
Yh the r7 needed a triple in it atleast, should of made one with the mt09 engine
Yes . More like a contender for the Ninja 650 or CBR 650R .
Supersport.
R6. CBR600 FULL BLOWN SUPERBIKE????
Suzuki K6 999CC 167KG ready to ride: am i a joke to you?
@@ktkace bruh
That was an extremely professional, accurate and technically competent discussion of engine design - one of the best I have ever seen on YT. You directed your words so carefully and with such parsimony that you didn't trail off into the weeds, yet kept it simple enough to be accessible to the general public.
Great work!
There are no explosions in a normally operating combustion engine. If this occurs, it's called knocking and the ECU immediately retards the spark to prevent it.
The reason high revving engines are not used in trucks is mainly the narrow powerband, cost and durability. There is no physical reason that a low geared high revving engine could not be used to pull heavy loads. Motorcycle manufacturers could NOT easily increase torque in high revving motorbike engines, that's just nonsense. A motogp engine has very short rebuild intervals, does not meet emissions regulations and costs an absurd amount of money. Also, the torque figures are not that high: they reach their high output mainly through high revs. A standard KTM Superduke has more torque than any motogp bike in production.
@@tobiascarlen A person on a bicycle can produce more torque at the crank than a typical economy car... But he did a good job explaining the trade off between low end torque and high end power. Cut him a little slack for keeping it simple and to the point. Not talking in circles, is a dying art among the internet generations.
@@zackw4941 Simple explanations that give people the wrong impression of how things work are of negative value in my book.
@@tobiascarlen I'm a professional mechanic and didn't cringe at anything he said. I could see where he was erring on the side of not going into other tangents. I think that he did a good job staying withing the scope of the video.
Long Stroke Small Bore is Undersquare, Large Bore Short Stroke is Oversquare. Most Performance Engine's are Oversquare.
Is it because they want to reach higher RPM
@@toxicotwenty9821 Undersquare engines have power and torque lower in rpm range and more reciprocating mass...lower redline. Oversquare engines have less mass and rev easier into higher rpms where more power is available. Harley=....long stroke low rpm torque monster...New Panamerican engine very much opposite.
@@TubeBrowser2 Great explaination, thank you.
@@TubeBrowser2 Undersquare is torquey because the longer stroke/connecting rod is a more effective lever
@@matthewhaworth5935 I think that depends on the function you intend that lever to serve. Because In a high Revving application the longer Con-Rod is no longer very effective...
Zx6r is the most under rated production bike of all time
i personally think yamaha wr 250 x is the most underrated bike
@@moral974 is that the green lane bike?
I agree with this 100%. The Zx6r I have now is my absolute favorite bike I’ve owned.
@@coxyjmz its actually a supermoto street leagal version of the wr250 dirt bike
@@moral974 same thing still mehhh its no 500 2 stroke, which they also no longer make. Good bye to all fun!
The 750 class used to be a lot more popular into the 1990s but once the 750cc Superbike racing was eliminated development was shifted to other classes. Honda stopped making racing 750s except for the exotic models like the RC30 as did Yamaha with their 0W01. Kawaski's ZX7 made it into the 2000s but no one was really buying it as it hadn't been competitive in years. The Gixxer was still available and was so quick that its performance was in literbike territory but it had no real competition. The only 750s left were the sport touring leaning VFR 750. The class just died on the vine
By then 600 was as fast as heavier 750, and if you wanted more power folks got 1000cc. Got squeezed out as 600s from mid 80s started running 750 numbers
The 750 class was a product of the mid 70’s. Nearly all the brands premier bikes were 750. Honda CB750, Kawasaki H2750, Suzuki GT750, Yamaha 750 to name the most popular by Ducati, Norton etc all had that size for the #1 model.
I mean even today you can buy a Gixxer 750. They didn´t really change much in the last 15 Years but honestly there´s no need to. I been saying it for years,, the 750 is the perfect Sweetspot. Don´t get me wrong 600 cc Bikes are really fast, more than you would need on public roads. But they lack Torque and power down low. Once you get in the Power Band you are already going faster than the Speed Limit. With a 750 you just get that extra Grunt down low so you can pull nicely without going bat shit crazy fast. It´s a shame that no other Brand still makes Bikes in this Category. I was hoping the R7 would be something alike but with "only" 72 hp it kinda lacks altho it´s still a really nice bike for Daily Riding with the occasional Track Day
Everyone had their formative riding experiences on a 600cc. My dad's 2004 CBR600RR was crucial to my riding development and progress to a 1000cc later on. But the 600 is still the most honest and simple yet still very capable.
I’ve own multiple bikes and I ended back on a cbr600rr 2008 and I absolutely love. Perfect machine to commute and also fun on the weekends.
Same here I’m back on a 636 🤟
on a 600 hornet 2001
Yes guys, I know the GSXR750 is faster than a 600 sport bike, its about the only exception to the rule. This video is for people who are struggling to understand why bigger engines don't necessarily mean faster bikes, and that's especially true in the case of 600cc sport bikes. Basically 600s are faster than just about any 650 - 750, apart from the Gixxer750.
Also, to clarify the ending of the video. Japanese manufacturers are no longer selling their 600cc bikes in Europe due to the Euro 5/6 standards. 600 Sport Bikes can still be bought in the Asian Market, and in the US, you lucky dogs!
Displacement is not the issue. 600cc supersports are "Supersports" first. They were developed from the ground up to be track focused. The displacement is secondary, if they produced 500, 600, 650, 730cc (whatever) real Supersport bikes, they would always be faster that their road focused counterparts.
@@kyzer97320 Exactly, well put, 600cc was just a marketing choice👍like you say they could've picked any middle weight displacement
That's why a 750 is the only sport bike I will own. Best of both worlds
@@Bassandbackpacks I hope to one day own a 750 Gixxer, middle weight bike with the performance of a 1000, sounds almost too good to be true 👍 🙂
Ok, I was about to say. Personally I think the GSXR750 is the best sport bike. I just wish it would get all the electronics that the liter bikes do. Then it would be unstoppable.
luv it when u imediately showed the zx14r dash while using the word "torque"...this mighty beast is a torque monster. am a busa guy but 14roll like a train.
Know u mentioned it but my l5 gsxr 750 made 140 at rear wheel used to hold with my mates zx10r right up to 150+. Its the sweet spot IMHO awesome bike
I love my 2017 R1, but there's just something about riding my 2001 GSXR-600 that gives me much more pleasure. She's an absolute blast!
Light nimble but still plenty of power. 600s rule while all others drool lol.
This was the best explanation/demonstrstion I've seen to explain bore/stroke, how the actual configuration applies to actual torque, revs and horsepower. Thanks!
I learned this 50 years ago. Good to have a refresher lesson!
The r7 is definitely not replacing the r6. Two totally different bikes
I get what you're saying as there two completely different engines, however it's now their new mid weight sport bike, so in eccence, it is the spiritual successor to the R6, at least here in the UK where you can no longer buy the R6 new ☹
@@GoblinRides It's not. Really not. They trick you with the name. Its a MT07 with fairings.
yamaha had already make a true r7 years ago. its just a reused names. the new r7 is not a successor to the r6.
I don’t see how this would benefit Yamaha at all. How do they expect to compete at all with the other manufacturers mid level super sports with literally 35% less horsepower? I’ve owned a fz07 they are fast but not nearly as quick as a r6.
@@kyzer97320 I do understand what you mean, as they did the same thing with the R3 and MT03, but I'm sure that's what Yamaha are going for to cut costs. People seeing R7 and thinking, "ah it must be a better bike than the R6" when that's simply not true, considering it shares more similarities with an MT07 than an R6. So yes I do understand what you guys are saying, but I still stand by what I said, as in the UK and Europe, the R7 is the only midweight sport bike we can now buy, I'd always recommend and R6 over an R7, but we simply don't get that choice anymore ☹
That's why I love my Suzuki GSR600, the acceleration for a 600cc is insane, 13.5sec from 0-200km/h and the sound of a high rev engine is just music for my ears :)
The under and over square shape cylinder helped me understand this a ton
Comming back to motorcyling to find out that 600ccs where gone. I was really looking forward to seeing what 600s where about in today's markets.
My first real bike was a gpz600r back in 89'-90'. , I loved it 😁I was mini Maverick, 2nd top gun 😂👍👍
first time i rode a 600 (2010ish GSXR) i thought it was under powered at first.. took me a second to realize you just need to rev it to the moon for it to move at a decent speed
ride SMCR now, single cylinder 690cc totally different beast
for a street bike I still prefer the liter bikes for not having to down shift to explode in traffic. stuff comes up and maybe 1 gear down boom its all behind you. So a liter or more mine was a Vee twin sport bike it just makes for more fun.
I totally agree twist and go torque is way more fun on street than w buzzy 600 where you need to wring its neck to make it go.
There is a lot more to this equation why 600cc can be faster than 1000cc. Smaller motor means lighter bike HP/Kg, higher gear ratio, both in the gearbox and on the sprocket is also a factor. The fact is that they don't have the same top speed but set up the motorcycle for the lower end of the power curve. The market needs 600cc class that is sporty but don't necessarily have too much power, for people who are new to the motorcycle world, as a experience builder, before they go on a more powerful bikes. I loved my 1978 Kawasaki KZ650, it was a good sturdy bike with not to much power and were excellent as a beginners motorcycle. Then i got a 1992 Kawasaki ZZR1100 and that would have killed me if i hadn't have the prior experience, that bike is fast. And today i own Yamaha R1, 190 Kg and has 160 Hp and i love it...
At 64, love my R1 I picked up. Not enough highway for it. I just need to keep reminding myself of that.
When I bought my ZX6R new in the UK in 2021 there was only another 3 left for sale I didnt want to start on a 600 but im glad I did they are the best fun.
It's not the stress that prevents longer stokes from reving higher. It's the speed of combination that prevents longer strokes from reving higher
I'm afraid that none of this is really the case at all. The reason 600's are faster in most cases, is because they were developed to be so. Think of the original 750's - The YZF750, ZXR750, RC30's & RC45's... The reason 600's became so powerful and fast is through development and technology. You cannot compare a modern 650 (twins in most cases) to a high-reving 'Supersport' bike. They are literally from different worlds.
litteraly... even at the same CC a 2022 900cc is not as fast as a 1996 900cc. Different times and expectations
@@reposter6434
Are you Fkn insane 😂 Bikes are faster nowadays than back in the day. Especially considering the same displacement. Look at the HP ratings. 2023 R1 has near 200hp 😂 maybe 150’s in the 90’s
@@reposter6434- you're funny. You're one of those idiots who uses literally all the time but in your case you can't even spell the word!!😅😅😅
The primary reason i'm sticking to 600 because of it's fun high reving 4cyl characteristic. Absolutely make no sense going for parallel twin R7.
Engine torque doesn't matter when pulling heavy, just wheel torque. So you can replace a 200 hp truck engine with a 200 hp 1000cc and with right gearing the result will be the same. Regardless if you are pulling heavy or want to go fast power is the only thing that matters.
12v Cummins and r1 are equal ok thanks
@@chadsummers7981 in terms of how long it takes them to pull a certain weight up a hill or accelerate it to 60, yes
Yes and no. Yes it doesn't matter. No, it matters if the one driving it is human.
The torque on the superbike comes out very late. With 200kg weight it's fine. With tons of weight your brain will explode with the sound. I've traveled with my gf on a 2 stroke bike and I'll never do it again.
@@britishpersonfpv6794 No, he's correct. If gearing is accounted for, a 200hp bike engine will pull the same weight, at the same speed as a 200hp diesel engine. It's just not going to last very long doing it.
Maybe in theory but you're not accounting for the rotational mass of the transmission necessary to put the power to the ground. In the case of a 200hp bike engine you'd lose so much to the size of the trans needed to get that to the ground that there would be little left to actually do the work
My first bike was GSXR 600 , loved that damn thing. Might have to grab another
@Goblin RIDES I beg to differ with you, but the first true 600cc Class sport bike wasn't the Kawasaki GPZ 600R, it was the Yamaha FJ600 (I believe it was called the XJ600 in Europe). When it was first introduced in late 1983 for the 1984 model year it was all the rage for several reasons. First, Yamaha was the first manufacture to market a 600cc middle-weight bike. Second, they took the reliable 528cc engine from the XJ550 Seca and Maxim that produced 54HP, then bumped up the displacement to 598cc increasing it to 72HP. Then 3rd, they shoehorned that engine into a square tube aluminum frame that was originally designed for a 400cc engine that was sold in the Japanese domestic market. And 4th, it was the first fully faired replica racer middle-weight. All those things gave it a tremendous advantage when introduced that took the other manufacturers completely by surprise.
I know first-hand, because I bought and FJ600 in 1984 and loved it! It was just as powerful as my old '78 CB750F that it replaced, but was lighter, faster, handled tremendously better, and stopped better. The added bonus was they were thousands of dollars cheaper than any new 750 or larger that was forced to add on the "Harley Tax" to their MSRP.
Order of how fast Yamaha R bikes are:
R1
R6
R7
R3
R125
the general public:
what?
There's also R15 in between R3 and R125.
@@mundeepcool And an R25
R7 is a mt07 with fairings
It's piston speed, combustion could only happen so fast, after that, you'll loose torque and just keep revving.
F1 engines rev up to 20k.
All R bikes rews high as they are built for a high degree of tune, small sylindervolum can rew more as they has lighter parts, max tourque is on the rpm sylinder-filling are highest, Max hp is at higher rews with less sylinderfilling but incresed numbers of combustions/second, Max hp is at the rpm where sylinder-filling drops to a extend so power decrese
The Suzuki GSXR 750 certainly is not slower. One of the best motorcycles to ever grace our planet.
Faxx☝
Straight fax here. My 750 could keep up with S1000RRs all day. (I couldn't pass them 😅) but atleast keep up.
That is the one exception imo, the rest like he said aren't inline 4 like a 600 or the gsxr is
4:03 oooorrr, horsepower is how fast you’re going when you hit the wall. Torque is how far through the wall you go.
Today I learned that tractor trailer drag strips are a thing
This also explains the reliabillity of a 600cc supersport
Had an R6 and an R1. R6 was faster to carve with forsure. But for most riding I did R1 was more enjoyable. It actually had a mid range, and who doesn't like more power period :) and the R1 was much better for a passenger
I'm pretty sure my 750 is considerably quicker than my 600
No doubt.
cbr 600 RR 2024 😍will be my first honda for sure. Hope this sparkes the 600 market again
My Royal Enfield GT 650’s engine is so, so different from an R6. Hard to believe both bikes are 600s, and that the RE actually has *more* displacement 😳 this video is great though, I’ve been wondering about this!
The main thing I took from this is how glad I am I don't live in the UK anymore with all those pot holes! 😀
Cool video though 🤙
I wish to have a 600 super sport … but in Germany they are getting really rare since they aren’t really sold new .. the used ones are getting really expensive
600cc are ending? I got a 2023 ZX-6R... love it with ALL MY HEART. nice video too. my bike is a 636cc though. Maybe that means it will never end?
Had a dinosaur built UK origin 600cc Norton in the classic era. Lived in a large southern university town and consistently destroyed everything in the quarter and on the top end. But now I like Triumph triple liter bikes. I still like quick.
-Matt’s dad
I'm lucky to have a 1987 gsxr1100h! Years Back I had a yammy yzf600r, it didn't have much torque, but get the revs up and it's fast! So 20 years on, I can only imagine how these bikes have progressed! I know not to offer them a race!!! 😅😎
Bought 1985 ninja new in 85, best bike i ever owned. Have owned 20 plus bikes over the yrs. But had more grins giggles and out right fun on the baby ninja. I am smaller guy 5 7 130lbs, in its day that bike would run with 750s any where but top speed, but only a few mph difference.
This was outstanding, since I didn't understand torque and horse 🐴 power concerning a motorcycle 🏍️.😁
I'm pretty sure Honda is still making the 600cc its just not coming out in the UK but is in USA
I haven’t heard of Honda discontinuing production of the cbr600rr, I just picked up my 2023 last week
I found this very well done, so I sub'd to see what else you've posted. Thanks for a good vid!
Edit: and no crappy background music while you're talking to us!
What has kept manufacturers from producing over-square, high revving engines in larger displacements? Does the block become too large?
You would need stronger and heavy joints, the only manufacture that has done it is Ducati with the Panigale that revs at 16500 rpm but the valves don't use springs and needs shorter mantenance schedule
@@Erickzy Yes, I've heard that... Ducati uses desmodromic system for their engines and it has shorter maintenance intervals.
Liter bikes and things like the hayabusa and zx14 are also over square. They all rev beyond 11k. At some point the power becomes too much to bring to market. And diminishing returns start to hit larger cc engines harder.
@@The-Celestial My 2018 Panigale doesn’t need valves checked until 15k miles, same as valve spring engines.
The JUN Synergy V8 2.4L is a good example of this use case:
Stroke : 83.0 x 55.4 (mm).
Compression 12.3 : 1.
Displacement 2397cc
Max Power output 367.5ps / 10680rpm
Application: Subaru BRZ
It's really more so the fact that 600 is a limiting class in many locations whete license type and/or taxation changes, so they squeeze as much as possible from the 600 as it's the biggest that many people can go regardless of price, so they shove as much engineering time into those 600s as they can, as opposed to 650s and 700s, which won't sell as many units, and people that buy them could step up to a 1000 if they really cared about power that much.
yeah its true, its like some sort of agreement that they will classing sportbike intended for race in 600 and 1000s and they maxed out their performance there, and any other bike they made outside that is generally not a racing sport bike..
3:13 lengthening the piston will not change the stroke. The crankshaft is what determines the stroke.
Worth mentioning:0 To 60MPH(0 To 100KPH)is about the same on both the Ninja650 and the ZX-6R-they're both under 4 seconds and above 3 seconds.
0-60 is comparable but 60-100 and beyond is where the 650 struggles to keep up. I ride an 06 ninja 650r
@@JPearlLapis That's absolutely right but I'm not interested in going really fast,just get me up to the speed limit quickly and yes I too have a ninja 650(2022 model)-absolutely love the bike.
Daytona 650, plenty of torque, 14,000 rpm and 114 bhp. They do go well! Maybe not the quickest but certainly no slouch.
You've completely skipped the number of valves allowing the air-fuel mixte to go inside the cylinder of two vs four cylinders. The compression ratio is also higher for super sports bikes.
Dude, even most MODERN 1cil engines have 4 valves per cilinder.
@@lillnemo1 Ok so let me rephrase what I mean. You take the heads surface of the bores for a two-cylinder and the head surface of the bores for a four-cylinder for the same displacement. Wich one will allow to squeeze more valves surface to let the air and the exhaust get in and out of the engine?
A GSXR600 faster than a GSXR750? Don’t think this is what you intended…
Fun is relative. Fun where? Lots of fun on the track where you can stay in the very narrow, top end power band. For the street, torque and a wide power band is king.
Those trucks racing... No words...
Im upgrading from a ninja 400r to a ZX-6R in the near future. Super excited but very scared of dropping it. Very glad I started with a 400 because I am a bit short and had to learn to tippy toe balance the weight and then learn to ride in different shoes as I adapted but within months I wanted more power. This will be a difficult transition because I’m going from less than 50hp to 127hp holy shit
but my experience on the 400 will be incredibly useful.
I have a hard time even getting my 400 to 105mph because it doesn’t have too much get up and go 😢 which I want on the freeway. I desire the power to just blow out of the way If someone merges into me and breaking isn’t a safe option.
I also want to go fast. Rly fast
🏍 💨
You may want to upgrade to the ninja650 instead-remember 0 to 60 mph(0 to 100kph)is about the same for both the ZX-6R and the Ninja650.The Ninja650 is capable of 130 mph the ZX-6R is capable of 160 mph-do you really need or want to hit 160 mph on a public highway?Also you better have a good job to pay for the insurance on the ZX-6R which is significantly higher than the 650 not to mention the purchase price of this bike is several thousand more than the 650.
Trust me you want the ZX6R. People can say whatever they want but in the real world, it is in every way faster than a ninja 650. It's not close.
@@glenmcintire3106 In the 'real world' the public roads and highways aren't racetracks either-ninja 650 is a better balanced bike for the 'real world' with much much lower insurance rates,better gas mileage,lower maintenance costs,better seating position for touring as well and still enough power in the low to mid range to get you to the legal speed limits quickly.
@@RobertNixAlternativeArtist Yeah, she said she wants to go really fast. She never said she wanted a practical/affordable bike. Every person I know that owns a 650 wished they owned my bike instead.
@@glenmcintire3106 Then she should get the H2-maybe you can buy it for her as a xmas present.
just 4.3k views??? this vid deserve more views
ZX6R is the best one , why it's still around, Kawasaki sets the tone , always has , imo
My 94 FZR600 surprisingly keeps up pretty good with todays 600’s
750 triple>600-4 or 1000-4 IMO. Triple is a good balance of torque and revs. If you need a crapload of overall power, go turbo. Turbo FZ07s can do 140WHP on E85, and that's a relatively low revving twin. Imagine a proper triple even of the same displacement that revs 3000rpm higher and due to the firing interval, acts MUCH more efficiently on the turbocharger's turbine wheel.
I almost kinda want the US foreign motorcycle displacement embargo to return so manufacturers make 750 turbo bikes again. A modern 750 turbo would be insane.
I remember when 500cc two strokes were making 200hp and doing powerwheelies so much so that riders never hit the power band because not even shifting up put the nose down...
Gotta love a big bore 2 stroke.
Two stroke engines have massive potential. Its sad to see how they slowly get ditched by everyone because of fuel economy.
I have a Suzuki Katana AY50 with 70cc cylinder producing 18 HP running on nitro-methane and ethanol.
I too have ridden a CR500R :D
I had a YZR 250 GP and I was doing about 3 sec faster than my GSX 1000. 2 strokes bikes are incredible.
Fascinating video. Thank you. High toque in a motorcycle usually means more power at lower revs. I have ridden a Suzuki GSX 750 and now have a BMWR1250R which is a high torque motocycle. t has superb acceleration at low revs, and one just cannot rev the engine hard like my Suzuki on the road. It is a different riding style. What is better? The BMW is more relaxed for road use, yet is also fast, but does not have the fun of the Suzuki engine.
Thank you for your goblin rides talk that was epic
Sharing some knowledge! Thanks for explaining this! I Feel smarter. Shared with my son too!
So it’s all about the way the engine is built and it’s desired purpose.. So what about a 650/700 with a shorter stroke, more width - built for rpm. Then it would be faster right?
Torque: the ability of the engine to move the bike.
Horse: the ability to develop speed.
the truck analogy used is slightly flawed in that, tractors don't always have a trailer on them, and they can accelerate faster than people think without them, the engines are designed to haul that is why they are built the way they are, in tandem with their transmissions and a good operator, you can float the gears and out pace a lot.
ps, callng the R7 a middle weight is not very indicative of the truth. the R7 is junk in comparison to the R6. putting the MT 07 engine into the frame of the R6 is a marketing and selling ploy done by yamaha to cater to a casual market. it is, quite literally a different bike.
Answers my questions well enough,nice video mate!
It’s said that the 2024 *R9* will be the R6 replacement
Short answer: revs.
Long answer: revs.
Left a young aggressive guy on a 600 CBR.. in the streets after 5 turns and a few straights with my 1100 GSX/R…I can turn as hard as him but with the straights ….see ya !!
Ive had them all ninja 250cc kawasaki and yamaha and honda 600cc suzuki gsxr 750cc honda cbr and zx10r 1000cc kawasaki zx12r 1200cc and a hayabusa 1300cc and my favorite for the street is a 600cc now for freeway high speed pulls 1000cc baby!!!! 💪🏻😎
If motorcycle manufacturers could increase the torque of their engines significantly, they would! But they can't... a naturally aspirated engine can generally produce between 100-115 Nm per liter (the Ferrari 458 produces 120 Nm per liter, in a very specific rev range, where the volumetric efficiency of the engine is above 100 %, due to timing of the pulses in the intake, cramming air into the cylinder at a pressure that is above the ambient pressure).
The only way motorcycle manufacturers will be able to increase the torque significantly, is by increasing the displacement or by using forced induction.
MotoGP machines are not producing much more torque than a street going liter bike, they are just producing that torque at a lot higher engine speed, thus producing a lot more power.
The motogp bikes have close to 300 hp. The average liter bike is sub or around 200 hp, with the exception of a few more expensive models. The motogp bikes Rev to around 14-16k rpm tops which is around the same as every liter bike you can buy now, yet they have substantially more hp and torque than the street bikes we can buy.
@@th3frs3h NO dude is right moto gp bike makes similar torque to sports bike which you can buy for road aplication around 120 nm but they have this torque higher than road liter bike feg bmw s1000 rr 201 hp have at 13-14 k rpm depend on verison with max 113 nm at 10-11 k rpm where moto gp ducati feg achieve 275 hp at around 17 k rpm for which is required 120 nm diffrenc i torque between moto gp bike and road superbikes are very small 3-5% what really generat ediffrenc in how they can accelerate and how much top speed they can achieve beside lower weight with also typically lighter driver (typical moto gp rider is 60-70 kg vs typical road superbike rider is 80-120 kg ) is POWER .
Love bikes and had them all my life. My dream would have to be a custom bike as at 6'6" nothing is ever comfortable.
Fantastic video, you can tell you put alot of effort into it! You deserve more subs!
Ok so why is my Yamaha R1 so fast? Because it just Finn batshit crazy? Ahhh mummy help me…!
Torque isn’t real because we have gears. The reasons trucks can ‘pull’ is because they have a higher percentage of their peak power at low rpms whereas a 600 sports bike has a smaller amount of its power at low rpms but can rapidly rev to its peak power band
Getting me an R7, soon. Waiting on it at the dealership.
The only thing I never understood is why they dont just use the big “1000cc” engine blocks and just shorten the stroke to 600cc.
That would mean the current cbr1000rrr with its 81 mm bore / 48.5 mm stroke to a 29.1 mm stroke in the 600 version that could then rev to 21k at a normal mean piston speed of 21 m/s
valve floating ,and couple other reason 👌🏻
Yamaha is keeping the r6 around with a race only version
The gsxr600 and cbr600 aren't discontinued in the USA at least. They r still manufacturing both of them.
I own a gsxr 600 and was just at the dealership the other day they still had both and it was the latest models for 2023 but for the gsxr 600 latest doesn't mean anything as the bike has been the exact same for over a decade only changes would be different color schemes. But it's crazy how my 12 year old 2011 gsxr looks exactly the same as the 2023 😂
Impressive production quality for someone with 800 subscribers!
It dosnt take subscribers to make a quality video
I made a reverse test drive with a friend of mine who owns a ZX6R and I own a SV1000S. Result, I keep my torquey SV1000S and he sold his ZX6R for a 3 cylinder Triumph. Horsepower is not everything, torque is also good
Ha same I detest riding 600's too much effort to get anything out of it on the road probably far better on track where you can rev it out.
If you ride two up you need the larger displacement for a comfortable ride. I’m not talking straight out acceleration but enjoying a good high speed ride. You need the torque but also the wheel base for the passenger to have some reasonable comfort.
In my day I had a Honda 900F and a CB1100R. The hot shot mid range bikes at that time were the 500 Yamaha and Suzuki two strokes.
We had a bunch of guys who would get together every two weeks for a 100-120 mile ride. A lot of high capacity bikes but also a few of the YZ and Gamma’s. Cannot remember either going two up it the 900-1100 range bikes were always two up.
Each has its purpose - the mid range were as quick, quicker on the twisty’s, as the big bikes but at the end of the ride there was a noticeable difference in the fatigue levels.
Had a zx9 . Very fun in a straight line but quite like a 70 s dodge, it will stop if you try and kinda corner ok . 11 fractures collapsed lung and bruised heart later , I still miss my zx9
Oh forgot to mention I'm on a 1250 Suzuki now
Would loved the video to be longer, this is great!
There were middle weight sport bikes before Kawasaki 1985... the GSX 550 came out before that and all the manufacturers had mid sport bikes.
Nice explanation & I didn't know but I'm not looking for a street bike, a Dual Sport that is on the road about 80%/20% but I saw
this & thought I should get a look. IT's true about the 600's all but disappearing, Kawasaki is in that alone I believe? Again, ty
for the lesson. peace
So the simple answer was? All I got was that they were more popular! Not sure how that works.
The torque v rpm v stroke length v Hp was the complicated bit, but easier to follow.
PS. Its no an explosion in the cylinder, is a rapid burn.
What about the Triumph Daytona 765 or the old Daytona 675? I don't think is about cc...
Well it's simple 600 supersports are inline 4's and 650's are parallel twins or v twins
Great and concise video