The spindle you can see in the video is really just a tube with bearings in it. One end has a chuck to attach bits and the other end is attached to a flexible shaft that goes to an external motor. I'd give you more details but I don't have any, it's what came with the CNC and doesn't have its own model number or anything. I've been thinking about modifying it or making a new one to use with a higher RPM brushless motor, but it works pretty well for now.
Thanks! That's not a stupid question at all, it's one of the more difficult parts. Right now my alignment is very manual and time consuming. After I flip the board I use the drilled holes to align the bottom side by moving the routing tip to where a hole should be and then move the board so the hole is there. I do that for multiple points on the edges of the board and tweak it a little each time to make it more accurate. I'm working on a fixture plate with pegs so that I can just flip and go.
Thanks! :) The 60 degree bits I use cut ~0.2 mm wide when cutting 0.05 mm deep. So my min spacing is about 0.2 mm (~8 mils). I've tried smaller point bits, but they break to easily. Haven't figured out how to cut smaller yet. As far as trace width, I'm not really sure what the minimum is. The limit seems to be how little copper can be attached to the board before it starts peeling off from the forces while routing. So, down to a few mills? Smaller than I've ever need to make a trace.
Height mapping is done with a special version of pcbgcode. It generates gcode that probes the board, stores the height values, then uses those values while cutting to adjust the cut depth. There is a link to the pcbgcode software's page in the video description.
The software used is mostly a kludge at the moment. I go from an Eagle CAD pcb layout to gcode using pcbgcode (details in the description), then cut the board with Mach3. I am using double sided copper blank FR4 boards.
I'm pretty happy with the noise level. Trying to keep the whole thing from being to loud is one reason I don't have a better vacuum setup yet. Haven't figured out a cost effective way to make that work yet...
I considered this also, and it would probably work well, but it would take a decent amount of work and expense to build a nice enclosure for the entire machine that still opened quickly and easily during bit changes and board movements. It is also nice to be able to get close and see the small details the CNC is cutting, while it is cutting, to check its progress. Though, that can also be a problem with vacuum systems that surround the bit.
Right now my alignment is very manual and time consuming. After I flip the board I use the drilled holes to align the bottom side by moving the routing tip to where a hole should be and then move the board so the hole is there. I do that for multiple points on the edges of the board and tweak it a little each time to make it more accurate. I'm working on a fixture plate with pegs so that I can just flip and go, with real accuracy. I'll make a video of that setup when it's ready.
I think that glass fiber dust is sticking to the board because of the static charge, so you need to reverse the charge of the copper plating for it to push that dust off, like they do on the solar panels
Thanks :) I think the leveling is essential for pcb milling. At least with the cheap FR4 board's that I've used, it doesn't seem to matter how flat you mount them, the surface is still pretty uneven. With the auto leveling I can cut 0.05mm deep with very consistent results. Thanks for the solder mask info. I've been looking into that but haven't tried it yet. I did however recently order some similar materials to the ones you pointed me to. I'll put up another video when I try them out.
Looks nice. I already use pcb-gcode for PCBs. I'll have to try the levelling version. I recently got a vacuum table so was hoping that might hold the boards flat enough to not need it. Your boards looks great but one thing I found that really adds to the quality of home PCBs is a solder mask. I can't post a link to the one I used but search for "Dry Film Solder Mask" on Instructables if you're interested.
do you use r67 or r68 of pcbgcodes autoleveler? I've tried using r67 with Mach and eagle 5.11 and it probes fine but it doesn't adjust for the z anywhere. Do you have to separate the probing portion of the code from the milling or do anything else special? Thanks!
Great work! Looks really professional. I have a stupid question: how do you make sure the PCB board is still at the same co-ordinate after you flip it? is it just simply the mounting with a stopper somewhere? I'm normally afraid of taking off the work piece and have to do the alignment again to make sure it hasn't moved from its intended location. Thanks
Hello.BRAVO ! Well done.So I have some questions : 1-what was the RPM for spindle 2-what beauty of code did you use to measure the distance bretween copper plate and spindle ???? This is awesome ! 3-what software did you use with your CNC ? Mach 3 ? 4-did you do drills through hole copper plating or something ? If so HOW ????? 10 millions thanks ! Greets from Romania !
Haha, yea. You think that's annoying, try waiting for it to finish cutting a board while it does it ;) The whole software path from gerber files to gcode is pretty cumbersome. I would really like to create my own tools for it to make the process easier and include gcode optimizations. Hopefully I will have time for it, or at least add an optimization step into the process.
(see my reply to tooby98765) Yea, I cant wait to have a fixture plate to make it easier and much more accurate. It's surprising that it works on small traces aligning by hand, but I'm mostly using 26mil vias at the moment. I need to improve my through hole platting process and try to get down to 12mil. Then hand alignment will probably not be enough.
With a plugin called pcbgcode (link in description). Yea, it would be nice if it optimized the paths... There is probably better software for generating gcode for PCB's now.
I was thinking a plexi cube, with a hinged door. You would be able to see through it, and if you went fancy, you could incorporate a crude lens in the plexi to enlarge what ever you looked at :) then having the thing in plexi, the blowing away the particles, and sucking out the air through a filter, could work.
Thanks for your interest! :) 1 - The spindle is at about 8K RPM 2 - The PCB height probing is done with a special version of pcbgcode. I added links in the description to find more information about it. 3 - I use Mach3 to control my CNC 4 - I use through hole copper platting on my boards after I drill holes and before I mill the traces. I added links in the description to find more information about it.
CopperCAM looks interesting, I'll have to try it out. The auto leveling code I'm using is part of a plugin for Eagle PCB, so it won't work directly with CopperCAM. However the auto leveling functionality it written into the gcode, so it should be possible to add it to any PCB routing gcode file. It would take some software development.
I've mostly used r67, but recently switched to r68. Don't see any difference. The gcode should be full of lines like this: G01 X42.2534 Y55.0140 Z[-0.0500 + 0.5314*#7128 + 0.0838*#7127 + 0.3324*#7140 + 0.0524*#7139] Those #numbers are were it stores the z data from height mapping. That's how it adjust the z while cutting. The adjustment should be very small and hard to see physically, but you should be able to watch the z value change in your cnc software as it cuts a path.
When generating the paths I tell the software that the cuts will be 0.2mm wide. This seems to be the smallest reliable value I can use. The ability to create very narrow cuts is dependent on the angle of your engraving bit and the depth of cut. I've tried using pointier bits, but they break to easily. The shallower the depth of cut, the narrower the cut width, and also the better the cut looks. There is less disturbed FR4 material and ragged looking trace edges. I target 0.05mm cut depth (1oz copper is about 0.035mm). The key to successfully milling such a shallow depth is the auto leveling, as the blank PCB panel isn't nearly flat enough to get that accuracy with a constant cutting tool height.
William Gallant Isolation is pretty good with this routing method. There is no solder mask, which is a downside, but the valleys carved into the exposed FR4 resist solder flow well. I think the biggest advantage with a real solder mask would be the smaller feature size. The gap created by the engraving bit is huge in comparison.
Thank you. I look at this CNC isolation routing and think how neat it is compared to Manhattan or island soldering. Do you think they'll ever get to a version of 3D printed circuits including components one day?
Hello, Im in a robotics team at my university and we have been considering making our PCBs like this. Can you recommend a few types of bits for this process?
Both sides of the PCB have copper. The components I'm using are surface mount, so they connect directly to the copper on the top side. The bottom side only has traces which are connected to the top with vias.
Benjamin Isaacs on the pcb software, make sure all the components (through-hole) are on the top, and all the etches are on the bottom and you should be good. If surface mount, all on top, even the etch.
Chang yuhsuan Are you asking about the wood under the PCB during routing? It's an MDF layer that allows the through holes to be drilled without hitting the aluminum base plate of the CNC machine.
Probably, but it is difficult. I never really got it to work all that well, and it's a lot of chemicals to maintain at a small scale. Works much better for larger production.
manually.. :/ I use the through hole drills to align it, since they are the only reference on the bottom side. That's actually why I drill the holes on the top side and not as the last step. Basically I put the board in the approximate spot, move the bit's tip in mach 3 to the location of a through hole then slide the board around until the physical hole lines up with the bit. I do that a few times for holes in each corner of the board until everything is aligned. I go back to the hole locations and check that they are still aligned after clamping down the pcb.
The video description has a link to a web archive of the plating tutorial I used. It's very old now, there may be better ones. I only did it a few times after making this video. Good luck!
very nice video tutorial, by the way, may I know what is the tip cutting size? 0.1mm 60° I guess?? what's your spindle RPM? I bought 10pcs of 20° 0.1mm bit, broke 3 pcs already and yet got a successful board etched. Settings: Feedrate: 80mm/min Plundge: 30mm/min Spindle RPM: 10K Trace Width: 0.35mm Any suggestion? Thanks
I'm impressed by how quiet your machine is. A couple of board routing machines that I have used where so much more loud.
NO NO NO : I thank you for this BEAUTIFUL board !!! You ROCK ! Keep up the good work ! 10 millions thanks ! Greets from Romania !
The spindle you can see in the video is really just a tube with bearings in it. One end has a chuck to attach bits and the other end is attached to a flexible shaft that goes to an external motor. I'd give you more details but I don't have any, it's what came with the CNC and doesn't have its own model number or anything. I've been thinking about modifying it or making a new one to use with a higher RPM brushless motor, but it works pretty well for now.
Thanks!
That's not a stupid question at all, it's one of the more difficult parts. Right now my alignment is very manual and time consuming. After I flip the board I use the drilled holes to align the bottom side by moving the routing tip to where a hole should be and then move the board so the hole is there. I do that for multiple points on the edges of the board and tweak it a little each time to make it more accurate. I'm working on a fixture plate with pegs so that I can just flip and go.
Thanks! :)
The 60 degree bits I use cut ~0.2 mm wide when cutting 0.05 mm deep. So my min spacing is about 0.2 mm (~8 mils). I've tried smaller point bits, but they break to easily. Haven't figured out how to cut smaller yet.
As far as trace width, I'm not really sure what the minimum is. The limit seems to be how little copper can be attached to the board before it starts peeling off from the forces while routing. So, down to a few mills? Smaller than I've ever need to make a trace.
I could watch this machine all day.
Height mapping is done with a special version of pcbgcode. It generates gcode that probes the board, stores the height values, then uses those values while cutting to adjust the cut depth. There is a link to the pcbgcode software's page in the video description.
The software used is mostly a kludge at the moment. I go from an Eagle CAD pcb layout to gcode using pcbgcode (details in the description), then cut the board with Mach3.
I am using double sided copper blank FR4 boards.
I'm pretty happy with the noise level. Trying to keep the whole thing from being to loud is one reason I don't have a better vacuum setup yet. Haven't figured out a cost effective way to make that work yet...
I considered this also, and it would probably work well, but it would take a decent amount of work and expense to build a nice enclosure for the entire machine that still opened quickly and easily during bit changes and board movements. It is also nice to be able to get close and see the small details the CNC is cutting, while it is cutting, to check its progress. Though, that can also be a problem with vacuum systems that surround the bit.
Right now my alignment is very manual and time consuming. After I flip the board I use the drilled holes to align the bottom side by moving the routing tip to where a hole should be and then move the board so the hole is there. I do that for multiple points on the edges of the board and tweak it a little each time to make it more accurate. I'm working on a fixture plate with pegs so that I can just flip and go, with real accuracy. I'll make a video of that setup when it's ready.
I think that glass fiber dust is sticking to the board because of the static charge, so you need to reverse the charge of the copper plating for it to push that dust off, like they do on the solar panels
Thanks :)
I think the leveling is essential for pcb milling. At least with the cheap FR4 board's that I've used, it doesn't seem to matter how flat you mount them, the surface is still pretty uneven. With the auto leveling I can cut 0.05mm deep with very consistent results.
Thanks for the solder mask info. I've been looking into that but haven't tried it yet. I did however recently order some similar materials to the ones you pointed me to. I'll put up another video when I try them out.
Thanks for the answer. That sounds great. Hopefully to see your next video when you post them.
Looks nice. I already use pcb-gcode for PCBs. I'll have to try the levelling version. I recently got a vacuum table so was hoping that might hold the boards flat enough to not need it.
Your boards looks great but one thing I found that really adds to the quality of home PCBs is a solder mask. I can't post a link to the one I used but search for "Dry Film Solder Mask" on Instructables if you're interested.
My goodness, that is absolutely beautiful!!!!
I agree with you, FR4 is nasty stuff, I use flood coolant on my machine to capture the dust, it works incredibly well.
do you use r67 or r68 of pcbgcodes autoleveler? I've tried using r67 with Mach and eagle 5.11 and it probes fine but it doesn't adjust for the z anywhere. Do you have to separate the probing portion of the code from the milling or do anything else special? Thanks!
Great work! Looks really professional. I have a stupid question: how do you make sure the PCB board is still at the same co-ordinate after you flip it? is it just simply the mounting with a stopper somewhere? I'm normally afraid of taking off the work piece and have to do the alignment again to make sure it hasn't moved from its intended location. Thanks
Hello and thank's for your video.
I would have be interested by your holes platting process but your web archive is nearly unreadable.
Sorry. It's not my article (just one I found at the time), or my web archive. And it's 10 years old. Not much I can do about it.
Hello.BRAVO ! Well done.So I have some questions :
1-what was the RPM for spindle
2-what beauty of code did you use to measure the distance bretween copper plate and spindle ???? This is awesome !
3-what software did you use with your CNC ? Mach 3 ?
4-did you do drills through hole copper plating or something ? If so HOW ?????
10 millions thanks ! Greets from Romania !
can i know? what spindle do you use ? thankyou
What kind spindle are you using? I have found the standard wood routers to have too much runout; about 0.009 inches.
what about blowing the particles off instead?
then have a big filtered fan, in the direction the particles were blown
Haha, yea. You think that's annoying, try waiting for it to finish cutting a board while it does it ;)
The whole software path from gerber files to gcode is pretty cumbersome. I would really like to create my own tools for it to make the process easier and include gcode optimizations. Hopefully I will have time for it, or at least add an optimization step into the process.
Nice work! What minimum trace width/spacing are you able to achieve?
(see my reply to tooby98765)
Yea, I cant wait to have a fixture plate to make it easier and much more accurate. It's surprising that it works on small traces aligning by hand, but I'm mostly using 26mil vias at the moment. I need to improve my through hole platting process and try to get down to 12mil. Then hand alignment will probably not be enough.
How did you generate the g code, seems like every PCB mill video I see on here has a random cutting pattern. Slows down the process for no reason.
With a plugin called pcbgcode (link in description). Yea, it would be nice if it optimized the paths... There is probably better software for generating gcode for PCB's now.
Nice, hoping to build one of these myself soon.
I was thinking a plexi cube, with a hinged door. You would be able to see through it, and if you went fancy, you could incorporate a crude lens in the plexi to enlarge what ever you looked at :)
then having the thing in plexi, the blowing away the particles, and sucking out the air through a filter, could work.
Troght hool plating proces description link is broken can you share new link
Looks like that whole domain is gone. Try this: web.archive.org/web/20160713182813/twilightrobotics.com/prototyping/electroplating1
How do you line up the board accurately when you flip it?
Thanks for your interest! :)
1 - The spindle is at about 8K RPM
2 - The PCB height probing is done with a special version of pcbgcode. I added links in the description to find more information about it.
3 - I use Mach3 to control my CNC
4 - I use through hole copper platting on my boards after I drill holes and before I mill the traces. I added links in the description to find more information about it.
Etching sucks, I love this process!
Very nice! I have this low cost code called CoperCAM to do the isolation. Can this AutoLeveler software work with it?
CopperCAM looks interesting, I'll have to try it out. The auto leveling code I'm using is part of a plugin for Eagle PCB, so it won't work directly with CopperCAM. However the auto leveling functionality it written into the gcode, so it should be possible to add it to any PCB routing gcode file. It would take some software development.
Looks really great. I'm on stage where I'm still trying to find optimal speeds etc. What is your feedrate here ?
I run as fast as my machine can travel, about 600mm/min. I think it could easily be faster if my machine could handle that movement.
What type of bit did you use to cut the board out?
I've mostly used r67, but recently switched to r68. Don't see any difference.
The gcode should be full of lines like this:
G01 X42.2534 Y55.0140 Z[-0.0500 + 0.5314*#7128 + 0.0838*#7127 + 0.3324*#7140 + 0.0524*#7139]
Those #numbers are were it stores the z data from height mapping. That's how it adjust the z while cutting. The adjustment should be very small and hard to see physically, but you should be able to watch the z value change in your cnc software as it cuts a path.
what type of spindle is used on this machine
??
How narrow do you think you could make your your routing cuts with a machine like this, and how narrow are these cuts?
When generating the paths I tell the software that the cuts will be 0.2mm wide. This seems to be the smallest reliable value I can use. The ability to create very narrow cuts is dependent on the angle of your engraving bit and the depth of cut. I've tried using pointier bits, but they break to easily. The shallower the depth of cut, the narrower the cut width, and also the better the cut looks. There is less disturbed FR4 material and ragged looking trace edges. I target 0.05mm cut depth (1oz copper is about 0.035mm). The key to successfully milling such a shallow depth is the auto leveling, as the blank PCB panel isn't nearly flat enough to get that accuracy with a constant cutting tool height.
Very nice video, thank you. Q: How do you view any issues of isolation versus a regular pcb?
William Gallant Isolation is pretty good with this routing method. There is no solder mask, which is a downside, but the valleys carved into the exposed FR4 resist solder flow well. I think the biggest advantage with a real solder mask would be the smaller feature size. The gap created by the engraving bit is huge in comparison.
Thank you. I look at this CNC isolation routing and think how neat it is compared to Manhattan or island soldering. Do you think they'll ever get to a version of 3D printed circuits including components one day?
Hello, Im in a robotics team at my university and we have been considering making our PCBs like this. Can you recommend a few types of bits for this process?
If you search ebay for "carbide engrave bit 60" you will find the bits that I used to route my PCB's.
Hi How do you make the PCB so that your components are on the side with no copper and you solder on the other side? Cheers Benjamin.
Both sides of the PCB have copper. The components I'm using are surface mount, so they connect directly to the copper on the top side. The bottom side only has traces which are connected to the top with vias.
you should try solder masking it.
you should try solder masking it.
Benjamin Isaacs on the pcb software, make sure all the components (through-hole) are on the top, and all the etches are on the bottom and you should be good. If surface mount, all on top, even the etch.
why is the bakelite board put at the bottom of the PCB?
Chang yuhsuan Are you asking about the wood under the PCB during routing? It's an MDF layer that allows the through holes to be drilled without hitting the aluminum base plate of the CNC machine.
The page of through hole plating doesnt exist anymore, please could you explain this process?
Try something like this kavionic.com/blog/Making_PCB/ It looks easier and probably works better anyway.
cpirius thank you but no... your process is better, is more professional with an electrolysis method
Probably, but it is difficult. I never really got it to work all that well, and it's a lot of chemicals to maintain at a small scale. Works much better for larger production.
How you align two sides of the board accurately?
manually.. :/ I use the through hole drills to align it, since they are the only reference on the bottom side. That's actually why I drill the holes on the top side and not as the last step. Basically I put the board in the approximate spot, move the bit's tip in mach 3 to the location of a through hole then slide the board around until the physical hole lines up with the bit. I do that a few times for holes in each corner of the board until everything is aligned. I go back to the hole locations and check that they are still aligned after clamping down the pcb.
Yahoo group is private!
Is this version of pcbgcode free?
Yes, pcbgcode is free. You can just join the yahoo group to download the files.
Thanks! Yea, perfboards are useful, but can be a lot of work ;)
How much is this machine?.
At the time I think it was about $500, but that was a long time ago.
You can learn me how can plated the board ?
The video description has a link to a web archive of the plating tutorial I used. It's very old now, there may be better ones. I only did it a few times after making this video. Good luck!
Could work, but I'd rather have something that is more guaranteed to capture the particles and not spread them around.
Nice work, but the inefficient paths were annoying to watch.
"It was just over there! Now it's going back! argh!"
Put the whole machine in an enclosure :P
Thank you! :)
nice
Прикольно ))))
for drilling and outline routing you might find useful my miniCAM app github.com/siy/miniCAM
which engraving tool you used to cut the pcb?
+Fabricio Kevin Merida Gonzales I use 60 degree carbide engraving bits. They are very cheap on eBay.
very nice video tutorial, by the way, may I know what is the tip cutting size? 0.1mm 60° I guess?? what's your spindle RPM? I bought 10pcs of 20° 0.1mm bit, broke 3 pcs already and yet got a successful board etched.
Settings:
Feedrate: 80mm/min
Plundge: 30mm/min
Spindle RPM: 10K
Trace Width: 0.35mm
Any suggestion? Thanks
Tell what software for control of cnc of the machine is used
Smiling_Hemp Mach3