That’s how you know the show is awful: 2 extremely positive people, who like to find the good in every situation, have to grasp at straws to say good things about the show
I think he turned from slightly obnoxious to still obnoxious and completely without hope of an interesting character arc. Which I think counts as an arc? Don't question the guy who without any self-awareness talks about flying to Hawaii just for a few meals, effectively to a couple of "readers".
In the book lore, Isildur is actually a good guy. He discovers that he can't bend the ring to his will and he doesn't use it. When he gets killed by orcs, he's actually on his way to Rivendell to work out a solution with Elrond- he made a mistake and now he wants to fix it. He only puts on the ring reluctantly after his son pleads with him and tells him it's the only way for him to get away . . . as we know, this doesn't work. There's a reason "Heir to Isildur" is a proud, honorable title. Isildur is considered to be a hero of legendary proportions, but in the end, he was a man prone to making mistakes, even if everyone thought Sauron was defeated. Movie Isildur is dope too, but he's a lot more evil and selfish.
I actually didn't know that. Been trying a few times to pick up the books. But it's just so hard after the movies. My mind has kinda been formed on how it's supposed to be. It's why I always prefer to read books before I see movies. But I was just starting out reading books by the time the first movie came out. And was busy with the Wheel of Time and some others. Heck, I didn't even know it was a trilogy at the time. When it ended I was kinda shocked :P I mean, the story wasn't over, yet it ended? So yeah, I always thought Isildur was a douche.
@@therunawayrascal Yeah. Kind David and also the patriarchs of the Jewish tribes reminds me of a lot of the great-but-flawed leaders of Men in Tolkien.
I wouldn't say he's evil. The ring just got to him, but not enough to make him wear it. So in the end it's kind of neutral because he did lose to the ring, but he still had the self control to not give in completely
I love how real writers can spitball an infinitely better story than what we actually got in the show off the top of their heads in less than ten minutes.
Two knowledgeable people that have actually written fiction know more about character arcs and storytelling than 2 hacks that spent 10 years failing upwards, who would have thought
To be fair, they're basically editing a TV show and suggesting places it can improve. It's a lot easier to make something better once you've seen the final product.
I promise you, having done group writing critiques, there was nobody in their writing room pointing out the problems their decisions were causing in other places. Proof is that they’re not nitpicking, they’re calling out _obvious_ trope-tastic alternatives. 😂
@@jmwvirgil I never buy into this narrative anymore because, sure you can come up with a totally new story and the tv show can't do that, BUT the tv show has plenty of issues that they could have fixed in their OWN editing phase that weren't spotted that would have made the show much better without shooting any additional scenes. So yeah, that's a fair argument if we want to discuss fundamental changes to the story (and to counter that a bit, the SHOW itself was also just editing the story of the books into a narrative so what's their excuse?), but the producers were able to watch the show at the start of the editing phase and didnt fix it as best they could there. No one was preventing them from cutting scenes out or re-organizing things to make them fit better, but even if they did need re-shoots, shows do those ALL the time and I guarantee that they did them too in this show. So they had all the power in the world to re-shoot certain elements to make them better.
@@danielbroome5690 To support your last point, this show certainly had the budget to do any re-shoots, had they called for it. They just didn't see a need for re-editing and/or re-shoots, which is exactly why the criticism is valid.
I always appreciate how honest Brandon is when discussing the Wheel of Time TV adaptation. It's rare that an author is able to speak so freely about projects with which they've been involved, and I like that he has such a balanced take on it.
No, Brandon, Isildur isn't a bad guy. He is basically the "best" guy around, which is why his story is a tragedy and he's a cautionary tale of how the evil of the ring can corrupt even the best of people. In reality though the ring led to his death, he didn't actually get corrupted by it, but no one in-world knows that. Peter Jackson wanted to add more conflict to Aragorn and did it through Isildur.
Yup. Isildur is a top dude who only temporarily mishandled one extremely tricky issue he was ill-informed about, then died trying to fix it. PJ really wronged the character even worse than he did Denethor lol.
I was just about to write this comment. None of the people present at the victory of the last alliance could have destroyed the ring and out of all of them Isilur was probably the best one to get the ring
My biggest problems with RoP is story. Why is Sauron in the middle of the ocean and how he just happens to meet Galadriel? Why would a culture all about no one being left behind not helping Nori’s family? Why did Galadriel brother not saying anything to the mean elvish children and then spout nonsense about a boat sinking because it was looking down? Why build a dam with a magic key to destroy it? Why did the elves not notice orc trench before being captured? Elves will steal your jobs? Etc. just all things that keep pulling me out of the story because they don’t make any sense
What makes the elves stealing our jobs thing even dumber is that at the time there was literally one elf on the island and she was trying to leave. Sauron (not an elf) was the outsider who wanted a job there.
Yes! All of this made me cringe. I do really want them to circle back and explain why Sauron/Halbrand was in the middle of the ocean. It could be done in flashbacks, since now he’s been exposed as the evil Sauron and has been written into a corner.
I wouldn’t even mind it being a departure from the story of Middle Earth if the story was GOOD. As is, there are parts that pique my interest, but on the whole it’s only got visuals going for it. The characters are wooden and have poorly fleshed out, contradictory motivations. The setting makes no sense. The rules of the world are poorly established and have a bad pay off. On the bright side, we could surround Tolkien’s coffin in copper wire and hand him a magnet and he would power a city with the amount of turning over he is doing.
@@piratepimm fixed it. Love me some obscure words only used in one singular turn of phrase in the English language. Why is English hard to learn again 🤷♂️
Elrond and Durin was definitely the best part of the show. It showed how the Elves being immortal don't always think about time away from people. Elves may have friends they don't see for hundreds of years and it doesn't bother them. But Durin was hurt that his close friend missed so many landmarks of his life. And then we got to see them regain that friendship. It felt genuine.
But Elrond had a wedding invitation, then snubbed Durin. The elves' long lifespans shouldn't make that event less important to them. If anything, an event that only happens every hundred years or so with the potential to affect thousands of years into their future should be even more important to them.
@@pegasusdust9129 I don't think Durin said he sent an invitation. He just said "You missed my weddin'." It would be odd that Durin didn't send a message, but maybe Elrond wasn't in Lindon at the time, but some other part of Middle Earth. But you are right that Elrond, knowing how short other's lives are, would check in from time to time, you would think.
If only scrolls existed, and ink. Or even just messengers who can verbally deliver things such as wedding invitations. The show makes it seem like Elrond lives a day away from Durin, but he had literally no clue about these life events he’s missed that Durin was upset about. Elven immortality be damned
It was the best part until it got resolved through a joke while Elrond still being a shitty friend to the end of the show. Great premise, terrible execution. Still the best part of the show
@@SpookyTran you can’t honestly tell me that you liked Galadriel. She was horrifically rude and hostile to everyone she came across for absolutely no reason
I can forgive a lot of nonsense--though everyone surviving a thousand degree, toxic pyroclastic flow was hard to swallow--I feel like revealing Sauron to the elves was the worst misstep of the show. Sure, reveal him to the audience if you want, but it undermines his ability to manipulate everyone. No one forged rings of power because a guy they know is evil told them to, they were convinced it was a good idea to accept them as gifts from someone they trusted.
The problem was that they crammed too much into the finale. The forging of the rings *should* have taken at least two episodes, and it should have built up with forging the seven and the nine, and then Celebrimbor does the three. But it all got smooshed into ten minutes of "let's make something out of this mithril - a sword? a crown? a ring? two rings! no, make it three rings!" which was too rushed and too silly.
@@saraeissa4954 ok so they already know that sauron is in middle earth already, he fought with morgoth during the war. Every elf, human, and dwarf, even the children know this. Now, based on that information. Now what is more likely . He has constructed a rocket and flew into space , but then hitched a meteor back to middle earth, or that he never left middle earth?
The Stranger, Nori, Poppy, and yeah, I forget the elf in the Southlands. Which is weird because I really liked him. That fight when they had the chains on their legs was awesome.
Just because you weren’t listening to the dozens of times those names were uttered… good show with a confederacy of dunces trying fruitlessly to dunk on it.
Isildur always gets a bad rap for taking the ring. That's mostly a movie invention, there wasn't a whole "Cast it into the fire" moment in the books. Elrond and Cirdan suspected something was up with the ring, but neither of them intervened when Isildur took it as basically blood money for his father's death "Wergild" and then he went on to rule very well and placed good stewards in charge of his various kingdoms and he resisted the power of the ring as a MAN for 2 full years and actually overcame its spell because he was killed on his way north on the Anduin river intending to give the ring to Elrond. They were overwhelmed by Orcs and Isildur tried to stay and fight to defend them intent on dying with them if necessary but his troops were able to convince him it was vital to use the ring and escape. He put the ring on and dived into the river where it slipped from his finger and for a SINGLE instant he felt a horrible loss as the spell of the ring tried to dominate his mind with obsession, but since Isildur was such a good and pure man it was over in an instant and he felt a peaceful calm come over him as the weight was lifted off of him and it was in that moment where he passed the test of the ring when he was spotted and killed. So BOOK Isildur was a good king and actually did pass the test of the ring just as Galadriel did. The curse of Isildur that Aragorn worries about is actually unfounded but only Isildur knew he had resisted the ring's temptation at the time of his death.
Thank you for retelling the events, I didn't know the details (or forgotten it), the movies manage to override a lot from the books. Especially that I like a lot the scene with Elrond and Isildur in the volcano.
100% agree on Isildur being a true hero. Gotta push back on Aragorn's worries being unfounded though; just because the ancestor resisted the ring does not mean the heir automatically will - for example Bilbo gave it up, but Frodo claimed it.
@abelbabel8484 Frodo claimed it in the same spot that everyone would. Nobody could resist the ring inside of Mount Doom and Tolkien is quite clear that the only reason it's able to be destroyed is because the ring itself causes a schism between Gollum and Frodo due to their mutual obsession.
Sauron NEVER corrupted the Palantíri, the problem is that they are all connected to each other and Sauron has one. The reason they are dangerous is because they can connect the users minds, but Sauron being powerful can overpower the other user and drive someone to madness or read their thoughts.
It's things like that that make watching arcane and especially bridging the rift, the making of, so inspiring. Every big corporate problem was clearly presented at some point, and the team's answers were were almost always "we see how it usually goes, and we are doing the exact opposite".
He also complained about some points that I didn't really mind when I watched the show, but after hering his alternative ideas, I agree that they would have been much better.
He's absolutely right though like, it's so nearly very good. Theres a lot of possible concepts and storylines that could have been made and it's all smoothed out for the blandest, dumbest version of that.
@@MostLikelyMortal BS, both directors are talentless amateurs with 0 experience and liars. They were too busy selling the show as the most progressive one with a single black elf dancing capoeira for no reason at all or making Galadriel a reckless self-righterous teenager that gets to do whatever she wants. TWOT show is just the same, Rafe Jundkins, a terrible director who butchered the story just to promote all the female characters and left to shreds the boys trio while also mocking every single male side-character like they are idiot fools, non-sensical race-swaps in a diverse environment such as TWOT world... but 0 effort in narrative or storytelling... Result -> a terrible show that even the leftist influencers and authors can't even defend (only the radical leftists can defend such an abomination).
Isildur’s taking of the ring isn’t meant to be the failure of a weak man it’s meant to be the failure of a great and good man the scene with elrond yelling at him to destroy the ring isn’t in the books
About Galadriel suddenly getting suspicious I'm pretty sure what sparked it was hearing Celebrimbor repeat the line that Adar spoke to her from Sauron. So she got suspicious because she literally heard a line that she knew came directly from Sauron.
@@abelbabel8484 Actually I give them credit for this leap of logic since it's supposedly something Sauron said and Halbrand is the only known connection between Adar and Celebrimbor. The problem is that it's entirely Galadriel's fault that she's in this position to begin with since she pressured Halbrand to leave Numenor in the first place.
When Galadriel tells Halbrand that the line of kings died out 1000 or whatever years ago, he could also say "I'm 35; my mom told me I was the king. I don't know what to tell you because I wasn't alive?" I really disliked that entire interaction because there was 100 valid excuses for this random document some Elf intern found. It was a really weird writing decision and I'm still baffled.
"Yeah, the records say the line died out. Is this your first time finding out recorded history can be wrong? On a side note how exactly do you elves have that in your archives, anyway?"
GOSH its so refreshing to here someone else say this so clearly: it doesn't matter if Galadriel is likable or not; it matters what THE SHOW is narratively trying to say about her. Being a stubborn lout is a perfectly legitimate, interesting character point as long as the show doesn't try to sell you on it being a good thing.
Galadriel was suspicious because Adar told her Sauron was searching for power in the "shadow world" or whatever and then Halbrand uses those exact words in front of her when convincing Celebrimbor to forge the rings.
I would LOVE a nuanced discussion of House of the Dragon. I know it's not exactly Brandon's taste when it comes to fantasy, but after listening to the Wheel of Time and LoTR discussions-despite never watching the shows-it just makes me so HUNGRY for them to discuss the show I love
The creators have said on multiple occasions that they were allowed to do whatever they wanted. Idk why brandon and dan want to blame bad story on execs. The showrunners were BAD. Why is this difficult to say?
They're trying to find explanations specifically for the stupid contradictions in the plot. It's one thing to assume that the show runners are creating a bad plot, but it's another to assume that they're contradicting themselves from one moment to the next. For the former they only have to be arrogant, incompetent, bad storytellers, or whatever; for the latter they have to actually be mad. Having one person design a plot and another person insert a contradiction does make more sense for those particular plot holes.
The first bad sign was that those showrunners were there due to a JJ Abrams recommendation. Abrams is a hack of a writer, and anyone he recommends is more than likely worse.
@@melgibsonafter5beers626 But he literally puts the blame on the Amazon Studios executives, the exact people who have the power to greenlight an adaptation of his work... To me it seems more like a sense of loyalty towards fellow writers, wanting to blame 'the suits' for intervening rather than admitting that the writers might just be shit. Knock it off with the cynical conspiracy theories.
It's not actually fully incorrect in the lore. There is a section in Letters about how Sauron started the second age with good intentions and let himself be re-corrupted. But of course, RoP can't handle that well.
That Galadriel discovers Halbrand's true identity, and WITHHOLDS that information from Celebrimbor and Elrond to forge the rings is mind-blowing. Elves do not willfully aid the works of Evil. It's the entire purpose of Sauron's deception as Annatar.
The vibe I got from RoP wasn’t that creating the elven rings was bad (which from various comments, seems to be consistent with actual Tolkien lore- the rings of elves were always fine), but rather that it has given Sauron the knowledge he was missing in order to go on and forge the other Rings later. At the point Galadriel discovered the truth about Halbrand/Sauron, he had already learned what he needed. Revealing that knowledge wouldn’t have stopped Sauron, but it WOULD have stopped Elrond and Celebrimbor from proceeding with the forging, which would have doomed the elves to… either die immediately, become mortal, or be forced to leave Middle Earth. Or, some combination thereof, I wasn’t particularly clear on that (that entire thing, and “Oh, Mithril can save us because it’s shiny!” was kinda weird and dumb IMHO). Regardless, it left Galadriel with a bad choice- reveal Sauron, doom her people and leave men and dwarves to face the resurging orc threat alone, or keep his secret, save her people, and settle the rest later. Though it may not have been the smartest decision, that’s because WE know what Sauron is going to do, but SHE doesn’t, and so it was somewhat consistent with Galadriel’s character as presented.
I would attribute the best character moments to the actors over the writing. Durin elder and younger, Elrond, Adar, Disa, and Nori were the best characters but still often had to interact with the worst characters like Galadriel.
On the moral dilema question from the start of the episode: Last spring we visited Egypt for the first time. We did the whole shabang, from Cairo, the Pyramids, to Aswan, Abu Simbel (literally the southern most temple in Egypt that's like 30km off from the border with Sudan), to Kom Umbu, Edfu, Esna, Luxor, Valley of Kings and all that. Literally the entire Nile delta without missing a single historical sight. That being said, just two days before we were about to leave on our vacation I was moving/carrying carts, furniture and all manner of home stuff as we were about to move house. I did kinda feel a slight discomfort in my back but I brushed it off as just a minor overexertion (I have a hernia in my lower back area so I do get that pain from time to time). For the first few days it was just that, a minor discomfort. By the time we were nearing the end of our Egypt trip I was in literally excruciating pain and was a semi-invalid as I could barely walk, stand upright and fail find any comfortable position even in a resting laying state. When we came back home I had to basically lay in bed for 20 days, guzzle a dozen heavy med pills and visit a physiotherapist every other day for recovery sessions. Even so, our Egypt trip remains firmly in my mind as a blast and very positive experience overall (thankfully, I don't have any lasting health issues from back then). But yeah, in hindsight if someone asked me would you do it again, even knowing so that my back was gonna hurt like a b!tch, I would still do it. The history and culture, the memories with friends and family made it all worth it tenfold!
I honestly think the Balrog is going to look around, see it's just a leaf, go back to sleep, and then they'll do the whole dwarf society wakes him up later anyway. This isn't the Balrog waking up to destroy the city yet, this is just heavy handed foreshadowing so you know it will eventually.
He goes to pee, then goes back and when his eyes were about to close, a clumsy dwarf drops 2 leaves. Now, the Balrog is enraged to the effing upstair neighbours.
For the quarantine question, I went through a bad sickness while I was on Santorini and I can say without a doubt, quarantining there while looking out the window at a fantastic view was still great and beats sitting at home. On another note, food in Hawaii is DELICIOUS. However, I have a bias since I am Polynesian and I grew up with this food and adjacent
I was just thinking about the alloy thing earlier today. Like that seems like something a master smith would know? And your ideas for Halbrand staying with the elves and not revealing himself - that's much closer to Tolkien's vision of Sauron as Annatar. Plus more interesting!
This show just smells of people that have no clue how anything works and think they surface anecdotes on stuff is deep knowledge. "Oh yeah, I know alloys are a thing, let's use that"
I don't think the Palantir that the Numenor king has is evil, just dangerous because it's very powerful and he's used it too much. It's a neutral tool that he wasn't prepared to handle.
These are the kind of ideas, and discussions that should have taken part in the writer's room, unfortunately, none of the writing team has a fraction of the combined creativity or storytelling talent of these two.
I think it’s a combination of Amazon execs giving the writers a strict timeline and checklist of things that have to appear in the show at certain points combined with the writers’ general lack of experience. I also did not get the impression that the creators were as big of Tolkien fans as someone like Peter Jackson, so they made something more akin to a generic fantasy adventure rather than a lord of the rings adaptation.
I agreed with almost all of this! Which is more than I can say about some of the previous episodes. I think it helps that these two have the "whole picture" (of Season 1) now, and have had some time to reflect and put their thoughts together.
At 19:25… The one ring is not forged by Celebrimbor in the lore; it is forged by Sauron in the flames of Orodruin. It is also forged after all the other rings are forged.
It's really interesting that before rings of power came people used to say that it would be bad because amazons other big fantasy show, wheel of time, was bad. The counter of course was that the two shows would have different teams. After seeing both shows it's amazing how similar they are. In the wheel of time the showrunner, who is completely inexperienced, changed the source material entirely. He changed the main POV from Rand to Moiraine and made the dragon reborn a mystery box designed to maximize internet fan theories. Of course, it was so apparent that Rand was the dragon reborn to regular viewers because he was the only one who didn't have any kind of powers. Everyone else on the cast had some kind of magic except him so it wasn't hard to figure out he was the dragon reborn. So a popular theory was that all 5 of the main characters were the dragon reborn because of how obvious it would be to make rand the chosen one. Rand was the chosen one. In rings of power the showrunners, who are completely inexperienced, changed the source material completely. They changed the main pov from Sauron (he is the protagonist of the 2nd age) to an assembly of made-up characters and made the identity of Sauron a mystery box. Of course, it was apparent that Halbrand was Sauron to regular viewers, because he was the only one with a mysterious past, watching the forge, breaking bones, etc. This was so obvious that a fan favorite theory was that Halbrand was a wraith because it would be extremely obvious to make Halbrand Sauron. Halbrand was Sauron. How is this possible? What is amazon doing???
I like Galadriel just fine. I don't necessarily agree with all her choices, but I do enjoy her as a character and an elf. I also know where she ends up (in LOTR), and I can see the shadows of this past character in future Galadriel. I need more seasons of RoP before I pass complete judgement on the show, but I am enjoying it, despite it's flaws.
This is why Sanderson is my favorite author. He took the weird Halbrand Galadriel relationship tension and turned it into a really interesting character arc that I am totally on board for ❤
I would love it if you both watched Andor on Disney +. I think it's done as good a job of story telling as Arcane did and I would love to hear your thoughts on it. I think it's an example of exceptional screenwriting which I think is rare in fantasy programming. It's my favorite television content created during the streaming era. Well worth a watch.
Andor is, as general speech convention would allow us to say, the goat. I expected nothing of it, didn't like the character much in Rogue One (despite considering the movie as one of the greatest Star Wars film), but, man, was it fantastic. I had low expectation, true, but to be fair, I didn't expected much of Rings of Power either, and I was still disapointed.
@@daisuke133 , building on what you said, I think Andor is one of those rare stories that successfully makes us reconsider the story it prefigures (while simultaneously standing on its own merit)--which is quite a feat in my opinion seeing as the story it prefigures is Rogue One, itself a prequel that invites us to reconsider how we experience episodes 4,5, & 6. Andor works as a prequel to a prequel!
@@rsr7014 I've heard this take a bit and I was surprised. The show had me from the end of the first scene with the two guards. It understood what made Cassian interesting as a rebel to the audience in rogue one. The ability to pull the trigger. It was so visceral and not how the heroes are usually presented in star wars. In my watch experience the pacing was flawless. I never wanted to look away. I would make sure I finished everything else I had to do that day and just watched the screen. No phones. No interruptions. The show had my full attention. In contrast, I consider Kenobi (which was full of action) to be empty and stale. Easy to get distracted and taken out of the world by goofy screenwriting choices.
To me, biggest problem with Galadriel is, that I cant see how we can get for A (show Galadriel) to B (book/movie Galadriel). They fell like two totally different characters to me...
@Zekushion6 because at this point galadriel is already considered the lady of light and wisdom and grace. She's already thousands of years old. And they don't age like slow children lol. The elves grow in wisdom as fast if not faster then the race of men which means shes had dozens of centuries of growth and maturity. So she would not be this childish character. If you know anything from the silmirillian or tolkiens appendices you know that Galadriel was never this stupid, toxic femininity, strong woman, cut throat leave people behind in the cold person. She was graceful and wise from the very moment she left the undying lands
Fun to hear your take on it. Knowing that you are working on bringing at least one of your stories to the screen, my question is: What are you going to do to avoid some of the mistakes we've seen in things like Rings of Power or Wheel of Time?
As Brandon is an extremely competent writer, there is only one real thing he needs to do to not fall into any of the huge pits that these shows did: do not allow for incompetent and politically motivated people to alter his writing. A faithful adaptation of Mistborn by Brandon himself for the screen will be great, so long as meddling idiots don't touch it.
@@pinianna Fair point, though I think the only reason he would make politically charged changes like that would be due to pressure from others in the industry, not of his own prerogative. We, the fans, have fallen in love with his characters as they are, and are not clamoring to do sex swaps or other stupid alterations to update the works for 'modern audiences' like the lessor creatives at Amazon, Disney, and other big studios have. Hopefully he doesn't give in to this stuff, otherwise we'll get such B rate versions of his stories on the screen.
@@Scaevola77 Brandon has already said he feels he "messed up" by having Vin be the only woman in the original crew. He's further said that Ham as a woman is one proposed change he's considering. I'm paraphrasing, but not making this stuff up. He is fine with lots of changes as long as "the soul" is still the same. I have hope, we'll have to see.
@@pinianna his works are already very political, so I don't see any political motivated change as intrinsically tampering the work. What I think is that any political-motivated change must be align with the political aspect of the work itself. I wouldn't trust in executives doing that kind of changes, but if Brandon himself does the change, I'm pretty sure he understand the work well enough to make it right.
Isildur was not a bad person, the fact he was corrupted is meant to show how powerful the ring's corruption is. Galadriel's husband is said to be dead in RoP despite being in Fellowship of the Ring. It's just bad writing from people who didn't read the books or even watch the movies. The issue with Galadriel is at this point in her life she isn't the correct character for this story. Second age Galadriel being brash, hot headed, and thirsty for revenge is like trying to take Superman after 20 years of experience and acting like he's still year 1 Superman with a lot to learn. Galadriel by the second is basically a demigod and was so wise and powerful she, Gil Galad, and Elrond immediately saw through Sauron because they aren't idiots. I maintain the series would have gotten more of a break if the character was just random eleven warrior woman and not Galadriel. They could have literally made her Galadriel's daughter and the character would work better...
“I’m just a cave man!” 😂😂😂😂 the BEST line of this session. My big beef was the the quote from the Uruk being used by Celebrimbror. That is what gave Galadriel the clue of Sauron, but it wasn’t even Sauron that said it. So why didn’t she think Celebrimbror was Sauron? That is who I thought was Sauron the whole time.
As a casual LOTR fan, I had no idea that I needed to be searching for a hidden Sauron all season. Where did they explicitly indicate that he was embedded as one of the MC's?
I mean, I'm not a huge fan of LotR stuff myself, but from what I gather from listening to these episodes, Sauron explicitly caused the rings to power to be created -- and that's the name of the show. So uhm -- draw the lines? I'm not trying to be mean, I just think that's why everybody who did know the lore knew he'd make an appearance.
@@Aldric524 Everyone knows Sauron was involved in making The Rings of Power and deceives Celbrimbore (sp?) to make them for him. I think what OP meant was that he wasn't expecting the writers to hide who Sauron was from the audience.
Totally agree here, not just the best Star Wars I have seen in awhile but some of the best TV I have seen in awhile. As a whole I thought the characters were done wonderfully, the story was does wonderfully. Effects of course were good. Giving the scale and power to the empire that it deserves. My only complaint was the transition to the prison. Felt fast and kind of strange and out of place. I loved the prison stuff I thought it made a ton of sense for cassians change of mindset. I just didn’t love how they transitioned to that, felt forced, random and out of place.
Can I see the show without knowing anything about Star Wars beyond the basics? I see it praised wverywhere, but dont want to watch a bunch of other stuff to understand it
@@Juan_Jose_Miraballes I think that as long as you know the general overview you should be fine, but it may benefit you to watch at least A New Hope and maybe Rogue One.
@@Juan_Jose_Miraballes absolutely. I saw the movies once each years ago and truly didn’t care about any of them much. Anything that’s part of pop culture that you know is enough. It’s just a great sci-fi show that’s dressed up in Star Wars clothing.
Hahaha so much goodwill towards these writers! "They're all about writing subtlety and it was the executives who meddled to mess everything up!" Can anyone find any instance of subtlety in this show? Any at all? There's 1 single scene where people don't outright state exactly what they're thinking, when Durin does not say out loud to Elrond that he didn't convince his father. And I bet *that* was the actors input.
Imagine doing the balrog scene, but with just the leaf landing beside a sleeping balrog. And the whole scene would have been perfect, leaving it open to do whatever they wanted with. Now they are locked in, kind of stupid tbh
They are being Extremely generous, even Brandon. Hopefully to try and not burn any bridges so that one day they get a chance to actually make something good themselves
Galadriel gets suspicious when Celebrimbor uses the exact same phase "power not of the flesh but over flesh" to describe what he's doing with the rings that Adar used to describe the power that Sauron was looking for.
Of course the guy who wrote Warbreaker 14:49 loved the Galadriel x Sauron ship. 😃. Brandon and Dan are right, the scene where Sauron just outs himself is dumb. But I really loved Sauron's speech and explanation of his motive.
Coming in late for this video but Brandon’s plot for Sauron is basically Paul from Dune… im here for it. But i dont have enough faith in the writers and producers to be planning that, when the brother elf said “some day i wont be around” in a time before death or war was ever known…..
Wow, you two are really generous with this show, treating it like a huge budget fan fiction. The problem is, it's not. It's a money grab, trying to cash in on one of the largest fandoms on the planet. Which is not inherently a bad thing, Disney has been doing that with Star Wars and while I think the new trilogy was awful, we did get Mandalorian, so yeah, shut up and take my money, just give me more of the same, please. When you look at it, they had a pretty easy job--take the enormous amount of exhisting material, and just give this huge fan base what they want--an accurate representation of the original material. Instead, they intentionally pissed off the fan base by not being respectful to the source material, tried to be much more clever with their plot than they are capable of, produced a nonsensical story with unlikable characters, and tried to get away with all that by faking diversity and inclusion. If this was one of those cases of "terrible as a part of the franchise, but decent if you look at it as its own thing", it could've been forgiven, but even if you look at it as a thing separate from Tolkien, it's still badly written nonsense. The reason why the LOTR movies were great was that they did everything to appeal to the fans. They didn't think, "let's do it this way so the movie fans who didn't read the book will like it" or "so it'll draw in new fans", no, they realized the fanbase is already huge enough as it is, and by catering to that fanbase (which wouldn't have been huge in the first place if the source material wasn't good), the fanbase itself drew in new fans who haven't even heard of Tolkien before the movies. You have to be extremely incompetent and/or narcissistic to have fans already lined up to watch what you're making and who *want* to like it (as opposed to getting people into something brand new), and then DELIBERATELY not giving them what they want and what they'd like to see.
I can beat Dan's Hawaii story. I was also sick in Hawaii, and the area I was staying in caught fire. I stood on the beach extremely ill watching my roof catch on fire! Luckily a helicopter dumped a bucket of water on it and put it out.
I think the overall biggest problem with ROP, is that they are only working with appendices. Most other problems I think stem from that. Though some cool things also came about as well.
No. Sorry. The problems stem from these people having huge egos and little to know writing skills and no respect for the source material. The appendices contain a massive amount of coherent information, more than enough to make a compelling and logical story that's doesn't break huge amounts of important lore and that doesn't just shit on already established characters personalities. The show is sham and is simply meant to be a money grab piggy backing off the genius of tolkien. Amazon inserted a bunch of political tokens into the show as well which just violated other fundamental aspects of tolkiens world. In short, it's shit and hot garbage that anyone with a shred of respect for professor tolkiens work will reject as abhorrent fanfiction.
The thing about Sauron is that, for as good of a job as the LOTR trilogy made him appear as a true force to be reckoned with even without having a corporeal form, he actually does have a pretty interesting motive in-lore. He doesn't want control and supremacy over middle earth for pure evil's sake, but rather because he'd like to preserve everyone in his own twisted way and he adores order (which ties back into Mordor and Evil in the world of Ea being usually caracterized as controlling and mechanical - which also ties into Sauron/ Annatar's role as a balcksmith). This usually ties into everything he's known for - control, manipulation, corruption, and a total lack of empathy for anyone.
I think the worst thing they did with Galadriel was missing the cool character she was in the books and movies in favor of a masculine warrior princess. Her reading peoples minds (like with Borormir) and leadership skills. Imagine the troll fight. The troll attacks causing everyone scramble and dodge. Galadriel organizes the defense, ordering some elfs to start peppering him with arrows. She orders 2 elf to engage him directly and distract and dodge. One gets knocked flying and the troll advances on him to finish him off. All of a sudden the troll reals clucking his head like he's got a migraine. Galadriel voiceover commands echoing in his mind. "All is hopeless, your death is freedom, morgath the foul will devour you soul,..." pan to her intense eyes as she assults him with magic. She yells NOW and 2 elfs do the jump thing in sequence. First stabs into the base of the skull leaving the sword stuck, the second carrying a hammer or rock or cooking pan hits the sword like a hammer hits a nail driving it into the spine. Troll drops with instant death. Its revealed she coordinated the attacks with her power. She then reprimands the one that got hit and barely praises everyones effort, lecturing them on being better prepared, showing her weakness of leadership and extreme focus on her goal as a character arc.
No, the one ring wasn't forged this season, but i understand the confusion. What they said if you listen closely (because it's dumb) is that Sauron was trying to make them create 2 rings rather than 3 because with 1 ring you would have someone with ultimate power who would become a dictator, with 2 rings it would cause essentially a cold war where they were always competing with each other, but with THREE rings they would balance each other out and keep each other in check with their power so that if one became corrupt or too powerful the other two could step in and overpower them. Essentially what Galadriel was arguing was that this was Sauron's plan to give them two rings so that they would destroy themselves fighting over them. So they forged three rings despite the danger because of the dumb and forced mithril plotline stopping the corruption of the elven forests. The rings were necessary to stop that, but they think they avoided Sauron's plan by making three. Of course this causes its own problems because Sauron CANNOT know about the three rings because they were kept secret from him and were not touched by him during their forging so that is completely out the window now....
What They should have done: forge the rings, save the sauron reveal for season two, have halbrand helping humans of middle earth rebuild and he's pushing them to industrialize, the balrog gets out, the elves and dwarves day he has to stop because he's destroying nature and all that but by then he's made all the dwarven and human rings, and he nopes out to Mordor and makes the one ring. That way it covers the break between the elves and dwarves (because the elves helped him get mithril), how sauron manipulated everyone (with the threat of sauron) but was still looking to help middle earth, and makes for a more impactful reveal moment. I did like the actual scene where he revealed himself to galadrial so I would still probably have that before he dips to Mordor
Personally, the best way I think they could have handled the Halbrand-is-Sauron reveal (using the show's story) was to have left Halbrand severely injured but mobile enough to interact with Celebrimbor and not make the rings just yet. He has to stay in Eregion to receive treatment while Galadriel departs. There he begins ingratiating himself to Celebrimbor suggesting new ideas and methods to the elf, passing them off as smithing techniques from the east (something more complex than saying make an alloy). Then, like Brandon suggested, have the camera pan over a sketch of something he drew and reveal its the script on the One ring. Maybe have the black speech interpretation of the inscription play with ominous music as it zooms in and cuts to black.
You two have big hearts for all the effort you go through trying to give the writers of this show the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps a bit of denial too, as we all wanted this show to be great. Alas.
I agree about Halbrand in theory but not execution. I thought the idea of a platonic relationship between Halbrand and Galadriel was a nice way to humanize Halbrand and add more meaningful conflict, and the parallels between the two characters could have been really great. I just don't think the people who made Rings of Power know how to make a television show.
The story from RoP of how Galadriel and Celeborn met is lifted straight from the story of Beren and Luthien, which was in turn inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien's relationship with his wife. Specifically, the part of Luthien, the most beautiful woman in the history of Middle-earth, dancing in the meadow is based on something Tolkien's wife Edith would do for him. Tolkien even had "Luthien" inscribed on Edith's headstone when she passed, paired with "Beren" for his own. It may seem like another example of the showrunners throwing fans a bone from The Silmarillion (which they don't have the rights to), but it's more an insult to the lore because they appropriate something that was of particular importance to Tolkien and gave it to another character. To build on the note of the subpar costuming - Celebrimbor's haircut and velvet robe reminded me of my late grandma in one of her winter pullovers. And to Brandon, when you have ~$60 million per episode, "Yeah we wanted to do that" stops being a valid excuse/deflection. Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon were, with some notable hiccups, *cough* Long Night *cough* able to deliver *far* more with far less. "Good ideas on paper that end up looking bad on screen" is where you need more experienced showrunners; individuals who've seen or even made these mistakes in the past and have learned how to avoid them, especially when you're talking about a show based on arguably the most beloved IP of all time, with an obscene per episode budget, that *needed* to be a global mega hit on par with the movies 20 years ago.
As for the plilantir I never got the impression that they were evil, just dangerous. I hadn't thought that sauron had corrupted any, he was just capable of corrupting and over powering people through them. I didn't get that in this, I hadn't thought the pilantir had driven him mad, but instead fear and terror of the eventual fall of numenor, along with possibly some ohysical sickness.
yeah book RotK makes it pretty clear that Minas Tirith's palantir didn't exactly "corrupt" Denethor. He looked into it seeking information on how to defeat or impede Sauron, and the dark lord was powerful and crafty enough to only show that which would lead him to despair. One can imagine something similar happening to Saruman as he studied Sauron. It's quite compelling; the idea of a neutral tool, a sender and receiver of information, spreading corruption when wicked and wily beings use it to their ends. There is prescience that Tolkien, who died 20 years before the invention of the internet, could not have forseen. LOTR is timeless.
21 minutes in. What tips Galadriel off is a line that Celimbrimbor says which is line for line something that Ardar quotes Sauron as saying in her conversation with him. The phrase contains "power over flesh". Because the phrasing is so close the only reasonable conclusion is that Celimbrimbor has been in contact with a servant of Sauron. I thought this beat subtle and really well done but does realie on the audience remembering the exact wording in a conversation in a previous episode.
I'm surprised that they like RoP more than WoT, RoP was so so bad or maybe worse, boring. Though I think I liked the beginning and middle of Wheel of Time show a lot more than most fans. Yes, the ending was disappointing, but if you have to emergency rewrite to handle losing a main character and covid restrictions, it's just not going to be as good. The one unforgivable change that keeps me from calling WoT great was the Dragon identity mystery. Saying the Dragon could be a woman wrecks the entire premise in the name of faux gender balance. Everyone is terrified of a mad man channeling. A woman with Dragon talent would be the most celebrated sister in a long while and promoted fast, not an object of fear. I give most of the show like an 8 and then knock it to a 5-6 due to that and the ending. RoP you need pages to go over all the things wrong or disappointing.
At least with Brandon, I know he's a bigger fan of WOT than LOTR so it's normal to be less bothered by the mess made of something you didn't care quite as much about. I'm not a WOT fan myself, but from I've heard it was quite the disaster.
"I'm totally married to a hot guy, he lives in Canada" absolutely destroyed me
Dan: Theo had the most interesting character arc.
Me: wait who was Theo? Sword kid? He had a character arc?
First time I've heard anyone say they like his character...
That’s how you know the show is awful: 2 extremely positive people, who like to find the good in every situation, have to grasp at straws to say good things about the show
Yeah he did. And Dan did a good job of highlighting how good of an arc it was.
Also. Love your user name. Fringe is such a underrated show. Rewatching the show right now with my wife and having a lot of fun.
I think he turned from slightly obnoxious to still obnoxious and completely without hope of an interesting character arc. Which I think counts as an arc?
Don't question the guy who without any self-awareness talks about flying to Hawaii just for a few meals, effectively to a couple of "readers".
In the book lore, Isildur is actually a good guy. He discovers that he can't bend the ring to his will and he doesn't use it. When he gets killed by orcs, he's actually on his way to Rivendell to work out a solution with Elrond- he made a mistake and now he wants to fix it. He only puts on the ring reluctantly after his son pleads with him and tells him it's the only way for him to get away . . . as we know, this doesn't work.
There's a reason "Heir to Isildur" is a proud, honorable title. Isildur is considered to be a hero of legendary proportions, but in the end, he was a man prone to making mistakes, even if everyone thought Sauron was defeated. Movie Isildur is dope too, but he's a lot more evil and selfish.
Yeah his story is a tragedy because he is so good and serves as an example of how the ring can corrupt even the best of men.
reminds me of the biblical King David
I actually didn't know that. Been trying a few times to pick up the books. But it's just so hard after the movies. My mind has kinda been formed on how it's supposed to be. It's why I always prefer to read books before I see movies. But I was just starting out reading books by the time the first movie came out. And was busy with the Wheel of Time and some others.
Heck, I didn't even know it was a trilogy at the time. When it ended I was kinda shocked :P I mean, the story wasn't over, yet it ended?
So yeah, I always thought Isildur was a douche.
@@therunawayrascal Yeah. Kind David and also the patriarchs of the Jewish tribes reminds me of a lot of the great-but-flawed leaders of Men in Tolkien.
I wouldn't say he's evil. The ring just got to him, but not enough to make him wear it. So in the end it's kind of neutral because he did lose to the ring, but he still had the self control to not give in completely
I love how real writers can spitball an infinitely better story than what we actually got in the show off the top of their heads in less than ten minutes.
Two knowledgeable people that have actually written fiction know more about character arcs and storytelling than 2 hacks that spent 10 years failing upwards, who would have thought
To be fair, they're basically editing a TV show and suggesting places it can improve. It's a lot easier to make something better once you've seen the final product.
I promise you, having done group writing critiques, there was nobody in their writing room pointing out the problems their decisions were causing in other places. Proof is that they’re not nitpicking, they’re calling out _obvious_ trope-tastic alternatives. 😂
@@jmwvirgil I never buy into this narrative anymore because, sure you can come up with a totally new story and the tv show can't do that, BUT the tv show has plenty of issues that they could have fixed in their OWN editing phase that weren't spotted that would have made the show much better without shooting any additional scenes.
So yeah, that's a fair argument if we want to discuss fundamental changes to the story (and to counter that a bit, the SHOW itself was also just editing the story of the books into a narrative so what's their excuse?), but the producers were able to watch the show at the start of the editing phase and didnt fix it as best they could there. No one was preventing them from cutting scenes out or re-organizing things to make them fit better, but even if they did need re-shoots, shows do those ALL the time and I guarantee that they did them too in this show. So they had all the power in the world to re-shoot certain elements to make them better.
@@danielbroome5690 To support your last point, this show certainly had the budget to do any re-shoots, had they called for it.
They just didn't see a need for re-editing and/or re-shoots, which is exactly why the criticism is valid.
Brandon guilt tripping Dan into lowering from an 8 to a 7 is gold.
48:50 Brandon's Face when he hears "8/10" 😂
that was amazing!
I always appreciate how honest Brandon is when discussing the Wheel of Time TV adaptation. It's rare that an author is able to speak so freely about projects with which they've been involved, and I like that he has such a balanced take on it.
No, Brandon, Isildur isn't a bad guy.
He is basically the "best" guy around, which is why his story is a tragedy and he's a cautionary tale of how the evil of the ring can corrupt even the best of people. In reality though the ring led to his death, he didn't actually get corrupted by it, but no one in-world knows that.
Peter Jackson wanted to add more conflict to Aragorn and did it through Isildur.
Yup. Isildur is a top dude who only temporarily mishandled one extremely tricky issue he was ill-informed about, then died trying to fix it. PJ really wronged the character even worse than he did Denethor lol.
I was just about to write this comment. None of the people present at the victory of the last alliance could have destroyed the ring and out of all of them Isilur was probably the best one to get the ring
In the books isildur was most definitely corrupted by the ring before his death
It’s complicate and more than I want to write out, but the channel ‘Tolkien lore’ has a good and in depth video discussing isildur
@@yomamma.ismydaddy216 No, since he gave it up willingly. Read, boyo.
My biggest problems with RoP is story. Why is Sauron in the middle of the ocean and how he just happens to meet Galadriel? Why would a culture all about no one being left behind not helping Nori’s family? Why did Galadriel brother not saying anything to the mean elvish children and then spout nonsense about a boat sinking because it was looking down? Why build a dam with a magic key to destroy it? Why did the elves not notice orc trench before being captured? Elves will steal your jobs? Etc. just all things that keep pulling me out of the story because they don’t make any sense
What makes the elves stealing our jobs thing even dumber is that at the time there was literally one elf on the island and she was trying to leave. Sauron (not an elf) was the outsider who wanted a job there.
Yes! All of this made me cringe. I do really want them to circle back and explain why Sauron/Halbrand was in the middle of the ocean. It could be done in flashbacks, since now he’s been exposed as the evil Sauron and has been written into a corner.
I wouldn’t even mind it being a departure from the story of Middle Earth if the story was GOOD. As is, there are parts that pique my interest, but on the whole it’s only got visuals going for it. The characters are wooden and have poorly fleshed out, contradictory motivations. The setting makes no sense. The rules of the world are poorly established and have a bad pay off.
On the bright side, we could surround Tolkien’s coffin in copper wire and hand him a magnet and he would power a city with the amount of turning over he is doing.
@@nathanharmon8971 Beep boop I am a bot. The phrase you are looking for is "pique my interest"
@@piratepimm fixed it. Love me some obscure words only used in one singular turn of phrase in the English language. Why is English hard to learn again 🤷♂️
Elrond and Durin was definitely the best part of the show. It showed how the Elves being immortal don't always think about time away from people. Elves may have friends they don't see for hundreds of years and it doesn't bother them. But Durin was hurt that his close friend missed so many landmarks of his life. And then we got to see them regain that friendship. It felt genuine.
It was the best part until they introduced the whole Mithril storyline. They were even able to ruin the only good thing going for the show
But Elrond had a wedding invitation, then snubbed Durin. The elves' long lifespans shouldn't make that event less important to them. If anything, an event that only happens every hundred years or so with the potential to affect thousands of years into their future should be even more important to them.
@@pegasusdust9129 I don't think Durin said he sent an invitation. He just said "You missed my weddin'." It would be odd that Durin didn't send a message, but maybe Elrond wasn't in Lindon at the time, but some other part of Middle Earth. But you are right that Elrond, knowing how short other's lives are, would check in from time to time, you would think.
If only scrolls existed, and ink. Or even just messengers who can verbally deliver things such as wedding invitations. The show makes it seem like Elrond lives a day away from Durin, but he had literally no clue about these life events he’s missed that Durin was upset about. Elven immortality be damned
It was the best part until it got resolved through a joke while Elrond still being a shitty friend to the end of the show.
Great premise, terrible execution.
Still the best part of the show
I think my biggest issue with ROP is that the characters were just.... comically unlikable. Not complex or interesting, just..... annoying to watch.
I think Adar was complex and interesting. Just not the vast majority of the characters the writers likely intended to come across this way.
The only likeable characters were the ones we were supposed to hate. That's a certified nat 1 persuasion roll, right there.
The characters were the best part of the whole show, but to each their own *shrug*
Agreed. Horribly rude and unlikable cast on an extremely boring and slow “adventure”
@@SpookyTran you can’t honestly tell me that you liked Galadriel. She was horrifically rude and hostile to everyone she came across for absolutely no reason
I can forgive a lot of nonsense--though everyone surviving a thousand degree, toxic pyroclastic flow was hard to swallow--I feel like revealing Sauron to the elves was the worst misstep of the show. Sure, reveal him to the audience if you want, but it undermines his ability to manipulate everyone. No one forged rings of power because a guy they know is evil told them to, they were convinced it was a good idea to accept them as gifts from someone they trusted.
The problem was that they crammed too much into the finale. The forging of the rings *should* have taken at least two episodes, and it should have built up with forging the seven and the nine, and then Celebrimbor does the three. But it all got smooshed into ten minutes of "let's make something out of this mithril - a sword? a crown? a ring? two rings! no, make it three rings!" which was too rushed and too silly.
I thought the dumbest characters are the 3 beings who try to follow the stranger and think he is Sauron.
I agree with you
You know somethings wrong when the person who thinks boats float cuz they’re looking up isn’t the dumbest character
What makes them dumb tho? It was a mistake
@@saraeissa4954 ok so they already know that sauron is in middle earth already, he fought with morgoth during the war. Every elf, human, and dwarf, even the children know this. Now, based on that information. Now what is more likely . He has constructed a rocket and flew into space , but then hitched a meteor back to middle earth, or that he never left middle earth?
“Not-Gandalf, Not-Frodo, Not-Sam, Not-Legolas.” I knew who you were talking about but honestly can’t think of their real names at all. That’s bad.
The Stranger, Nori, Poppy, and yeah, I forget the elf in the Southlands. Which is weird because I really liked him. That fight when they had the chains on their legs was awesome.
Not Gandalf's name is Gandalf
@@JanglesPrime999 Arondir
Just because you weren’t listening to the dozens of times those names were uttered… good show with a confederacy of dunces trying fruitlessly to dunk on it.
@@5quepasa oh yes. Ad hominem attacks are always the sign of a winning argument.
Isildur always gets a bad rap for taking the ring. That's mostly a movie invention, there wasn't a whole "Cast it into the fire" moment in the books. Elrond and Cirdan suspected something was up with the ring, but neither of them intervened when Isildur took it as basically blood money for his father's death "Wergild" and then he went on to rule very well and placed good stewards in charge of his various kingdoms and he resisted the power of the ring as a MAN for 2 full years and actually overcame its spell because he was killed on his way north on the Anduin river intending to give the ring to Elrond. They were overwhelmed by Orcs and Isildur tried to stay and fight to defend them intent on dying with them if necessary but his troops were able to convince him it was vital to use the ring and escape. He put the ring on and dived into the river where it slipped from his finger and for a SINGLE instant he felt a horrible loss as the spell of the ring tried to dominate his mind with obsession, but since Isildur was such a good and pure man it was over in an instant and he felt a peaceful calm come over him as the weight was lifted off of him and it was in that moment where he passed the test of the ring when he was spotted and killed. So BOOK Isildur was a good king and actually did pass the test of the ring just as Galadriel did. The curse of Isildur that Aragorn worries about is actually unfounded but only Isildur knew he had resisted the ring's temptation at the time of his death.
Thank you for retelling the events, I didn't know the details (or forgotten it), the movies manage to override a lot from the books. Especially that I like a lot the scene with Elrond and Isildur in the volcano.
100% agree on Isildur being a true hero. Gotta push back on Aragorn's worries being unfounded though; just because the ancestor resisted the ring does not mean the heir automatically will - for example Bilbo gave it up, but Frodo claimed it.
@abelbabel8484 Frodo claimed it in the same spot that everyone would. Nobody could resist the ring inside of Mount Doom and Tolkien is quite clear that the only reason it's able to be destroyed is because the ring itself causes a schism between Gollum and Frodo due to their mutual obsession.
Sauron NEVER corrupted the Palantíri, the problem is that they are all connected to each other and Sauron has one. The reason they are dangerous is because they can connect the users minds, but Sauron being powerful can overpower the other user and drive someone to madness or read their thoughts.
It's things like that that make watching arcane and especially bridging the rift, the making of, so inspiring. Every big corporate problem was clearly presented at some point, and the team's answers were were almost always "we see how it usually goes, and we are doing the exact opposite".
The forging of the rings was more of an afterthought than the main plot of the season
It's very funny seeing Brandon accidentally improvise a much better season of TV than what we got
It’s what happens when corporations get to decide things that writers are paid to be good at
He also complained about some points that I didn't really mind when I watched the show, but after hering his alternative ideas, I agree that they would have been much better.
He's absolutely right though like, it's so nearly very good. Theres a lot of possible concepts and storylines that could have been made and it's all smoothed out for the blandest, dumbest version of that.
@@Loomx5 If they cut out the hobbits it could have been so much better. So much wasted time on a literal red herring storyline.
@@MostLikelyMortal BS, both directors are talentless amateurs with 0 experience and liars.
They were too busy selling the show as the most progressive one with a single black elf dancing capoeira for no reason at all or making Galadriel a reckless self-righterous teenager that gets to do whatever she wants.
TWOT show is just the same, Rafe Jundkins, a terrible director who butchered the story just to promote all the female characters and left to shreds the boys trio while also mocking every single male side-character like they are idiot fools, non-sensical race-swaps in a diverse environment such as TWOT world... but 0 effort in narrative or storytelling...
Result -> a terrible show that even the leftist influencers and authors can't even defend (only the radical leftists can defend such an abomination).
Isildur’s taking of the ring isn’t meant to be the failure of a weak man it’s meant to be the failure of a great and good man the scene with elrond yelling at him to destroy the ring isn’t in the books
Yeah it worked for the movies but it was definitely awesome seeing Isildur in a new light when reading the books
About Galadriel suddenly getting suspicious I'm pretty sure what sparked it was hearing Celebrimbor repeat the line that Adar spoke to her from Sauron. So she got suspicious because she literally heard a line that she knew came directly from Sauron.
Yes exactly ! 😉
Yes, this.
But that line has nothing to do with Halbrand. Adar said it, not Halbrand, so she shouldn't have suspected him.
So Celebrimbor said a phrase that Adar said Sauron said before. Why on earth does that make Halbrand a suspect? Bit of a leap.
@@abelbabel8484 Actually I give them credit for this leap of logic since it's supposedly something Sauron said and Halbrand is the only known connection between Adar and Celebrimbor. The problem is that it's entirely Galadriel's fault that she's in this position to begin with since she pressured Halbrand to leave Numenor in the first place.
When Galadriel tells Halbrand that the line of kings died out 1000 or whatever years ago, he could also say "I'm 35; my mom told me I was the king. I don't know what to tell you because I wasn't alive?"
I really disliked that entire interaction because there was 100 valid excuses for this random document some Elf intern found. It was a really weird writing decision and I'm still baffled.
"Yeah, the records say the line died out. Is this your first time finding out recorded history can be wrong? On a side note how exactly do you elves have that in your archives, anyway?"
We gotta get something for Dan to sign during these.
Or maybe put out a puzzle for him.
The puzzle idea is brilliant.
I only recently stumbled upon this channel. What is he signing?
@@danidelight Inserts for leatherbounds.
@@Grunik1618 Ohh, thank you for the answer :)
I love how Brandon has found a way to make all these signings less tedious by running various streams and he just signs in the background.
What is he signing?
Thank you Brandon n Dan. You two are amazing !
Rings of Power chat starts at 5:28.
Your a legend.
Thanks ❤
Brandon's laugh after the Canada joke will stay in my head forever lol...
GOSH its so refreshing to here someone else say this so clearly: it doesn't matter if Galadriel is likable or not; it matters what THE SHOW is narratively trying to say about her. Being a stubborn lout is a perfectly legitimate, interesting character point as long as the show doesn't try to sell you on it being a good thing.
RoP must have been a tax write off for Amazon
Galadriel was suspicious because Adar told her Sauron was searching for power in the "shadow world" or whatever and then Halbrand uses those exact words in front of her when convincing Celebrimbor to forge the rings.
I would LOVE a nuanced discussion of House of the Dragon. I know it's not exactly Brandon's taste when it comes to fantasy, but after listening to the Wheel of Time and LoTR discussions-despite never watching the shows-it just makes me so HUNGRY for them to discuss the show I love
The creators have said on multiple occasions that they were allowed to do whatever they wanted. Idk why brandon and dan want to blame bad story on execs. The showrunners were BAD. Why is this difficult to say?
They're trying to find explanations specifically for the stupid contradictions in the plot. It's one thing to assume that the show runners are creating a bad plot, but it's another to assume that they're contradicting themselves from one moment to the next. For the former they only have to be arrogant, incompetent, bad storytellers, or whatever; for the latter they have to actually be mad. Having one person design a plot and another person insert a contradiction does make more sense for those particular plot holes.
Because Brandon REALLY wants adaptations of his work and needs to fellate Amazon Studios as much as he can without losing credibility.
The first bad sign was that those showrunners were there due to a JJ Abrams recommendation. Abrams is a hack of a writer, and anyone he recommends is more than likely worse.
@@melgibsonafter5beers626 Bingo. I like Brandon, but it's getting into grift territory.
@@melgibsonafter5beers626 But he literally puts the blame on the Amazon Studios executives, the exact people who have the power to greenlight an adaptation of his work... To me it seems more like a sense of loyalty towards fellow writers, wanting to blame 'the suits' for intervening rather than admitting that the writers might just be shit. Knock it off with the cynical conspiracy theories.
Okay now I want a Brandon and Dan spinning heads Batman style transition in my life.
Blank-Man!
Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!
The problem with Brandon’s idea of humanising Sauron, is he already gave his “I planned everything speech”.
he's clearly talking about an ideal portrayal, how he would've done it, not what happened
It's not actually fully incorrect in the lore. There is a section in Letters about how Sauron started the second age with good intentions and let himself be re-corrupted. But of course, RoP can't handle that well.
Watching you discussing Rings of Power is more interesting than the show itself. Thank you.
That Galadriel discovers Halbrand's true identity, and WITHHOLDS that information from Celebrimbor and Elrond to forge the rings is mind-blowing.
Elves do not willfully aid the works of Evil. It's the entire purpose of Sauron's deception as Annatar.
The vibe I got from RoP wasn’t that creating the elven rings was bad (which from various comments, seems to be consistent with actual Tolkien lore- the rings of elves were always fine), but rather that it has given Sauron the knowledge he was missing in order to go on and forge the other Rings later. At the point Galadriel discovered the truth about Halbrand/Sauron, he had already learned what he needed. Revealing that knowledge wouldn’t have stopped Sauron, but it WOULD have stopped Elrond and Celebrimbor from proceeding with the forging, which would have doomed the elves to… either die immediately, become mortal, or be forced to leave Middle Earth. Or, some combination thereof, I wasn’t particularly clear on that (that entire thing, and “Oh, Mithril can save us because it’s shiny!” was kinda weird and dumb IMHO). Regardless, it left Galadriel with a bad choice- reveal Sauron, doom her people and leave men and dwarves to face the resurging orc threat alone, or keep his secret, save her people, and settle the rest later. Though it may not have been the smartest decision, that’s because WE know what Sauron is going to do, but SHE doesn’t, and so it was somewhat consistent with Galadriel’s character as presented.
HUH? Elves DO commit evil what are you talking about
Noldorin Elves of Fëanor killed the Teleri - this is canonical
What are you talking about????
I wonder if someone else wrote the Elrond & Durin sections. It's mostly enjoyable.
I would attribute the best character moments to the actors over the writing. Durin elder and younger, Elrond, Adar, Disa, and Nori were the best characters but still often had to interact with the worst characters like Galadriel.
I love this podcast. Just getting to know how each of these great minds think is very rewarding!
Brandon giving us comedy gold at 48:51 😂
On the moral dilema question from the start of the episode: Last spring we visited Egypt for the first time. We did the whole shabang, from Cairo, the Pyramids, to Aswan, Abu Simbel (literally the southern most temple in Egypt that's like 30km off from the border with Sudan), to Kom Umbu, Edfu, Esna, Luxor, Valley of Kings and all that. Literally the entire Nile delta without missing a single historical sight.
That being said, just two days before we were about to leave on our vacation I was moving/carrying carts, furniture and all manner of home stuff as we were about to move house. I did kinda feel a slight discomfort in my back but I brushed it off as just a minor overexertion (I have a hernia in my lower back area so I do get that pain from time to time). For the first few days it was just that, a minor discomfort. By the time we were nearing the end of our Egypt trip I was in literally excruciating pain and was a semi-invalid as I could barely walk, stand upright and fail find any comfortable position even in a resting laying state. When we came back home I had to basically lay in bed for 20 days, guzzle a dozen heavy med pills and visit a physiotherapist every other day for recovery sessions.
Even so, our Egypt trip remains firmly in my mind as a blast and very positive experience overall (thankfully, I don't have any lasting health issues from back then). But yeah, in hindsight if someone asked me would you do it again, even knowing so that my back was gonna hurt like a b!tch, I would still do it. The history and culture, the memories with friends and family made it all worth it tenfold!
Best podcast ever! Always enjoy hearing your takes, and your conversations are genuinely fun to listen to.
I honestly think the Balrog is going to look around, see it's just a leaf, go back to sleep, and then they'll do the whole dwarf society wakes him up later anyway. This isn't the Balrog waking up to destroy the city yet, this is just heavy handed foreshadowing so you know it will eventually.
He goes to pee, then goes back and when his eyes were about to close, a clumsy dwarf drops 2 leaves. Now, the Balrog is enraged to the effing upstair neighbours.
Dan giving RoP a 7/10 is going to age like the too much water IGN memes.
I'm starting to think this Dan Wells guy isn't very smart
For the quarantine question, I went through a bad sickness while I was on Santorini and I can say without a doubt, quarantining there while looking out the window at a fantastic view was still great and beats sitting at home.
On another note, food in Hawaii is DELICIOUS. However, I have a bias since I am Polynesian and I grew up with this food and adjacent
I was just thinking about the alloy thing earlier today. Like that seems like something a master smith would know?
And your ideas for Halbrand staying with the elves and not revealing himself - that's much closer to Tolkien's vision of Sauron as Annatar. Plus more interesting!
Yeah, they clearly didn't consult with any metalworkers or jewelry smiths, or at least didn't take any feedback.
This show just smells of people that have no clue how anything works and think they surface anecdotes on stuff is deep knowledge.
"Oh yeah, I know alloys are a thing, let's use that"
Dan: I give this a 7, maybe an 8 out of 10.
Brandon: *has a stroke*
I don't think the Palantir that the Numenor king has is evil, just dangerous because it's very powerful and he's used it too much. It's a neutral tool that he wasn't prepared to handle.
These are the kind of ideas, and discussions that should have taken part in the writer's room, unfortunately, none of the writing team has a fraction of the combined creativity or storytelling talent of these two.
I think as bran and Dan talk about, it was probably more studio execs forcing dumb decisions than writers being uncreative.
@@Hufdud This 100%
I think it’s a combination of Amazon execs giving the writers a strict timeline and checklist of things that have to appear in the show at certain points combined with the writers’ general lack of experience. I also did not get the impression that the creators were as big of Tolkien fans as someone like Peter Jackson, so they made something more akin to a generic fantasy adventure rather than a lord of the rings adaptation.
I agreed with almost all of this! Which is more than I can say about some of the previous episodes. I think it helps that these two have the "whole picture" (of Season 1) now, and have had some time to reflect and put their thoughts together.
At 19:25… The one ring is not forged by Celebrimbor in the lore; it is forged by Sauron in the flames of Orodruin. It is also forged after all the other rings are forged.
Throw away line, Halbrad tells them to ride to that watchtower by the village. It's in the planning stages still in Numenor
Brandon's face at 48:50, priceless! 😂😂
It's really interesting that before rings of power came people used to say that it would be bad because amazons other big fantasy show, wheel of time, was bad. The counter of course was that the two shows would have different teams. After seeing both shows it's amazing how similar they are.
In the wheel of time the showrunner, who is completely inexperienced, changed the source material entirely. He changed the main POV from Rand to Moiraine and made the dragon reborn a mystery box designed to maximize internet fan theories. Of course, it was so apparent that Rand was the dragon reborn to regular viewers because he was the only one who didn't have any kind of powers. Everyone else on the cast had some kind of magic except him so it wasn't hard to figure out he was the dragon reborn. So a popular theory was that all 5 of the main characters were the dragon reborn because of how obvious it would be to make rand the chosen one. Rand was the chosen one.
In rings of power the showrunners, who are completely inexperienced, changed the source material completely. They changed the main pov from Sauron (he is the protagonist of the 2nd age) to an assembly of made-up characters and made the identity of Sauron a mystery box. Of course, it was apparent that Halbrand was Sauron to regular viewers, because he was the only one with a mysterious past, watching the forge, breaking bones, etc. This was so obvious that a fan favorite theory was that Halbrand was a wraith because it would be extremely obvious to make Halbrand Sauron. Halbrand was Sauron.
How is this possible? What is amazon doing???
I like Galadriel just fine. I don't necessarily agree with all her choices, but I do enjoy her as a character and an elf. I also know where she ends up (in LOTR), and I can see the shadows of this past character in future Galadriel. I need more seasons of RoP before I pass complete judgement on the show, but I am enjoying it, despite it's flaws.
This is why Sanderson is my favorite author. He took the weird Halbrand Galadriel relationship tension and turned it into a really interesting character arc that I am totally on board for ❤
I would love to see an episode about your thoughts on House of The Dragon
It *would* be pretty funny to have Celeborn show up as this big, red neck dead-beat and see he and Sauron romantically rival each other for Galadriel.
I would love it if you both watched Andor on Disney +. I think it's done as good a job of story telling as Arcane did and I would love to hear your thoughts on it. I think it's an example of exceptional screenwriting which I think is rare in fantasy programming. It's my favorite television content created during the streaming era. Well worth a watch.
Andor is, as general speech convention would allow us to say, the goat. I expected nothing of it, didn't like the character much in Rogue One (despite considering the movie as one of the greatest Star Wars film), but, man, was it fantastic. I had low expectation, true, but to be fair, I didn't expected much of Rings of Power either, and I was still disapointed.
I absolutely second this; would be a great show for them to analyze with their shared experience.
@@daisuke133 , building on what you said, I think Andor is one of those rare stories that successfully makes us reconsider the story it prefigures (while simultaneously standing on its own merit)--which is quite a feat in my opinion seeing as the story it prefigures is Rogue One, itself a prequel that invites us to reconsider how we experience episodes 4,5, & 6. Andor works as a prequel to a prequel!
@@rsr7014 I've heard this take a bit and I was surprised. The show had me from the end of the first scene with the two guards. It understood what made Cassian interesting as a rebel to the audience in rogue one. The ability to pull the trigger. It was so visceral and not how the heroes are usually presented in star wars. In my watch experience the pacing was flawless. I never wanted to look away. I would make sure I finished everything else I had to do that day and just watched the screen. No phones. No interruptions. The show had my full attention. In contrast, I consider Kenobi (which was full of action) to be empty and stale. Easy to get distracted and taken out of the world by goofy screenwriting choices.
@@daisuke133 agree with everything you said
I think I will watch season 2 just to listen to you talk about it! 🤣❤️
Haha Dan’s face when Brandon says his normal life is a 6/10😂
To me, biggest problem with Galadriel is, that I cant see how we can get for A (show Galadriel) to B (book/movie Galadriel). They fell like two totally different characters to me...
I wonder how even the best writers om earth could make it a believable character arc.
Because are Galadriels from different eras.
@@Zekushion6 Yeah, one is from era when people know how to write characters and one is from that show
@@MrMeldonius there are 3000 years difference between the two Galadriel, how do you expect her to be the same?
@Zekushion6 because at this point galadriel is already considered the lady of light and wisdom and grace. She's already thousands of years old. And they don't age like slow children lol. The elves grow in wisdom as fast if not faster then the race of men which means shes had dozens of centuries of growth and maturity. So she would not be this childish character. If you know anything from the silmirillian or tolkiens appendices you know that Galadriel was never this stupid, toxic femininity, strong woman, cut throat leave people behind in the cold person. She was graceful and wise from the very moment she left the undying lands
I hope y'all cover Andor in a future episode. I'd be curious to hear what y'all thought about it ❤️
I second this
Another +1 to this.
Fun to hear your take on it. Knowing that you are working on bringing at least one of your stories to the screen, my question is: What are you going to do to avoid some of the mistakes we've seen in things like Rings of Power or Wheel of Time?
As Brandon is an extremely competent writer, there is only one real thing he needs to do to not fall into any of the huge pits that these shows did: do not allow for incompetent and politically motivated people to alter his writing. A faithful adaptation of Mistborn by Brandon himself for the screen will be great, so long as meddling idiots don't touch it.
@@Scaevola77 Ah, but what if Brandon himself makes "politically" motivated changes, like making Hammond a woman for example?
@@pinianna Fair point, though I think the only reason he would make politically charged changes like that would be due to pressure from others in the industry, not of his own prerogative. We, the fans, have fallen in love with his characters as they are, and are not clamoring to do sex swaps or other stupid alterations to update the works for 'modern audiences' like the lessor creatives at Amazon, Disney, and other big studios have. Hopefully he doesn't give in to this stuff, otherwise we'll get such B rate versions of his stories on the screen.
@@Scaevola77 Brandon has already said he feels he "messed up" by having Vin be the only woman in the original crew. He's further said that Ham as a woman is one proposed change he's considering. I'm paraphrasing, but not making this stuff up.
He is fine with lots of changes as long as "the soul" is still the same. I have hope, we'll have to see.
@@pinianna his works are already very political, so I don't see any political motivated change as intrinsically tampering the work. What I think is that any political-motivated change must be align with the political aspect of the work itself. I wouldn't trust in executives doing that kind of changes, but if Brandon himself does the change, I'm pretty sure he understand the work well enough to make it right.
Can we just give this man $60 million per episode already?!
Isildur was not a bad person, the fact he was corrupted is meant to show how powerful the ring's corruption is.
Galadriel's husband is said to be dead in RoP despite being in Fellowship of the Ring. It's just bad writing from people who didn't read the books or even watch the movies.
The issue with Galadriel is at this point in her life she isn't the correct character for this story. Second age Galadriel being brash, hot headed, and thirsty for revenge is like trying to take Superman after 20 years of experience and acting like he's still year 1 Superman with a lot to learn. Galadriel by the second is basically a demigod and was so wise and powerful she, Gil Galad, and Elrond immediately saw through Sauron because they aren't idiots. I maintain the series would have gotten more of a break if the character was just random eleven warrior woman and not Galadriel. They could have literally made her Galadriel's daughter and the character would work better...
believed to be dead*
I would be sooooo surprised if he doesn't show up in later seasons
@@joshyaash The bigger issue is why her missing husband isn't part of her stated motivation during her centuries long quest to find Sauron.
“I’m just a cave man!” 😂😂😂😂 the BEST line of this session.
My big beef was the the quote from the Uruk being used by Celebrimbror. That is what gave Galadriel the clue of Sauron, but it wasn’t even Sauron that said it. So why didn’t she think Celebrimbror was Sauron? That is who I thought was Sauron the whole time.
I became really ill on my honeymoon, one of the worst experiences of my life, so I'm definitely answering healthy at home rather than ill on holiday.
As a casual LOTR fan, I had no idea that I needed to be searching for a hidden Sauron all season. Where did they explicitly indicate that he was embedded as one of the MC's?
You're right. Absolutely no indication whatsoever. I imagine even the more seasoned fans didn't know they were playing clue.
I mean, I'm not a huge fan of LotR stuff myself, but from what I gather from listening to these episodes, Sauron explicitly caused the rings to power to be created -- and that's the name of the show. So uhm -- draw the lines? I'm not trying to be mean, I just think that's why everybody who did know the lore knew he'd make an appearance.
@@Aldric524 Everyone knows Sauron was involved in making The Rings of Power and deceives Celbrimbore (sp?) to make them for him. I think what OP meant was that he wasn't expecting the writers to hide who Sauron was from the audience.
I would love to hear your thoughts on Andor. The show is fantastic.
Totally agree here, not just the best Star Wars I have seen in awhile but some of the best TV I have seen in awhile. As a whole I thought the characters were done wonderfully, the story was does wonderfully. Effects of course were good. Giving the scale and power to the empire that it deserves. My only complaint was the transition to the prison. Felt fast and kind of strange and out of place. I loved the prison stuff I thought it made a ton of sense for cassians change of mindset. I just didn’t love how they transitioned to that, felt forced, random and out of place.
Can I see the show without knowing anything about Star Wars beyond the basics? I see it praised wverywhere, but dont want to watch a bunch of other stuff to understand it
@@Juan_Jose_Miraballes I think that as long as you know the general overview you should be fine, but it may benefit you to watch at least A New Hope and maybe Rogue One.
@@Juan_Jose_Miraballes absolutely. I saw the movies once each years ago and truly didn’t care about any of them much. Anything that’s part of pop culture that you know is enough. It’s just a great sci-fi show that’s dressed up in Star Wars clothing.
Hahaha so much goodwill towards these writers! "They're all about writing subtlety and it was the executives who meddled to mess everything up!"
Can anyone find any instance of subtlety in this show? Any at all?
There's 1 single scene where people don't outright state exactly what they're thinking, when Durin does not say out loud to Elrond that he didn't convince his father. And I bet *that* was the actors input.
Imagine doing the balrog scene, but with just the leaf landing beside a sleeping balrog. And the whole scene would have been perfect, leaving it open to do whatever they wanted with. Now they are locked in, kind of stupid tbh
Sauron turned an Elf into a war banner. There is no part of him that was conflicted about good or evil. That dilutes him.
They are being Extremely generous, even Brandon. Hopefully to try and not burn any bridges so that one day they get a chance to actually make something good themselves
Galadriel gets suspicious when Celebrimbor uses the exact same phase "power not of the flesh but over flesh" to describe what he's doing with the rings that Adar used to describe the power that Sauron was looking for.
I’m so ready for you guys to be done talking about Rings of Power and start talking about Andor.
Of course the guy who wrote Warbreaker 14:49 loved the Galadriel x Sauron ship. 😃.
Brandon and Dan are right, the scene where Sauron just outs himself is dumb. But I really loved Sauron's speech and explanation of his motive.
Coming in late for this video but Brandon’s plot for Sauron is basically Paul from Dune… im here for it.
But i dont have enough faith in the writers and producers to be planning that, when the brother elf said “some day i wont be around” in a time before death or war was ever known…..
Wow, you two are really generous with this show, treating it like a huge budget fan fiction. The problem is, it's not. It's a money grab, trying to cash in on one of the largest fandoms on the planet. Which is not inherently a bad thing, Disney has been doing that with Star Wars and while I think the new trilogy was awful, we did get Mandalorian, so yeah, shut up and take my money, just give me more of the same, please. When you look at it, they had a pretty easy job--take the enormous amount of exhisting material, and just give this huge fan base what they want--an accurate representation of the original material. Instead, they intentionally pissed off the fan base by not being respectful to the source material, tried to be much more clever with their plot than they are capable of, produced a nonsensical story with unlikable characters, and tried to get away with all that by faking diversity and inclusion. If this was one of those cases of "terrible as a part of the franchise, but decent if you look at it as its own thing", it could've been forgiven, but even if you look at it as a thing separate from Tolkien, it's still badly written nonsense.
The reason why the LOTR movies were great was that they did everything to appeal to the fans. They didn't think, "let's do it this way so the movie fans who didn't read the book will like it" or "so it'll draw in new fans", no, they realized the fanbase is already huge enough as it is, and by catering to that fanbase (which wouldn't have been huge in the first place if the source material wasn't good), the fanbase itself drew in new fans who haven't even heard of Tolkien before the movies. You have to be extremely incompetent and/or narcissistic to have fans already lined up to watch what you're making and who *want* to like it (as opposed to getting people into something brand new), and then DELIBERATELY not giving them what they want and what they'd like to see.
I want 60 million dollars per episode for a stormlight series
I can beat Dan's Hawaii story. I was also sick in Hawaii, and the area I was staying in caught fire. I stood on the beach extremely ill watching my roof catch on fire! Luckily a helicopter dumped a bucket of water on it and put it out.
I hope we get some Andor episodes! Love hearing you guys talk about TV and film.
I think the overall biggest problem with ROP, is that they are only working with appendices. Most other problems I think stem from that. Though some cool things also came about as well.
No. Sorry. The problems stem from these people having huge egos and little to know writing skills and no respect for the source material. The appendices contain a massive amount of coherent information, more than enough to make a compelling and logical story that's doesn't break huge amounts of important lore and that doesn't just shit on already established characters personalities. The show is sham and is simply meant to be a money grab piggy backing off the genius of tolkien. Amazon inserted a bunch of political tokens into the show as well which just violated other fundamental aspects of tolkiens world. In short, it's shit and hot garbage that anyone with a shred of respect for professor tolkiens work will reject as abhorrent fanfiction.
I kid you not I was laughing for a solid five minutes when Brandon nearly had a stroke when Dan said it might be an 8 out of 10.
The thing about Sauron is that, for as good of a job as the LOTR trilogy made him appear as a true force to be reckoned with even without having a corporeal form, he actually does have a pretty interesting motive in-lore.
He doesn't want control and supremacy over middle earth for pure evil's sake, but rather because he'd like to preserve everyone in his own twisted way and he adores order (which ties back into Mordor and Evil in the world of Ea being usually caracterized as controlling and mechanical - which also ties into Sauron/ Annatar's role as a balcksmith). This usually ties into everything he's known for - control, manipulation, corruption, and a total lack of empathy for anyone.
14:38 I looked away from my screen with a biiigggg eye roll 😂😂
But! Even if I don’t like it, to each their own!
I think the worst thing they did with Galadriel was missing the cool character she was in the books and movies in favor of a masculine warrior princess. Her reading peoples minds (like with Borormir) and leadership skills.
Imagine the troll fight.
The troll attacks causing everyone scramble and dodge. Galadriel organizes the defense, ordering some elfs to start peppering him with arrows. She orders 2 elf to engage him directly and distract and dodge. One gets knocked flying and the troll advances on him to finish him off. All of a sudden the troll reals clucking his head like he's got a migraine. Galadriel voiceover commands echoing in his mind. "All is hopeless, your death is freedom, morgath the foul will devour you soul,..." pan to her intense eyes as she assults him with magic. She yells NOW and 2 elfs do the jump thing in sequence. First stabs into the base of the skull leaving the sword stuck, the second carrying a hammer or rock or cooking pan hits the sword like a hammer hits a nail driving it into the spine. Troll drops with instant death. Its revealed she coordinated the attacks with her power. She then reprimands the one that got hit and barely praises everyones effort, lecturing them on being better prepared, showing her weakness of leadership and extreme focus on her goal as a character arc.
No, the one ring wasn't forged this season, but i understand the confusion. What they said if you listen closely (because it's dumb) is that Sauron was trying to make them create 2 rings rather than 3 because with 1 ring you would have someone with ultimate power who would become a dictator, with 2 rings it would cause essentially a cold war where they were always competing with each other, but with THREE rings they would balance each other out and keep each other in check with their power so that if one became corrupt or too powerful the other two could step in and overpower them.
Essentially what Galadriel was arguing was that this was Sauron's plan to give them two rings so that they would destroy themselves fighting over them. So they forged three rings despite the danger because of the dumb and forced mithril plotline stopping the corruption of the elven forests. The rings were necessary to stop that, but they think they avoided Sauron's plan by making three.
Of course this causes its own problems because Sauron CANNOT know about the three rings because they were kept secret from him and were not touched by him during their forging so that is completely out the window now....
What They should have done: forge the rings, save the sauron reveal for season two, have halbrand helping humans of middle earth rebuild and he's pushing them to industrialize, the balrog gets out, the elves and dwarves day he has to stop because he's destroying nature and all that but by then he's made all the dwarven and human rings, and he nopes out to Mordor and makes the one ring. That way it covers the break between the elves and dwarves (because the elves helped him get mithril), how sauron manipulated everyone (with the threat of sauron) but was still looking to help middle earth, and makes for a more impactful reveal moment. I did like the actual scene where he revealed himself to galadrial so I would still probably have that before he dips to Mordor
Personally, the best way I think they could have handled the Halbrand-is-Sauron reveal (using the show's story) was to have left Halbrand severely injured but mobile enough to interact with Celebrimbor and not make the rings just yet. He has to stay in Eregion to receive treatment while Galadriel departs. There he begins ingratiating himself to Celebrimbor suggesting new ideas and methods to the elf, passing them off as smithing techniques from the east (something more complex than saying make an alloy). Then, like Brandon suggested, have the camera pan over a sketch of something he drew and reveal its the script on the One ring. Maybe have the black speech interpretation of the inscription play with ominous music as it zooms in and cuts to black.
You two have big hearts for all the effort you go through trying to give the writers of this show the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps a bit of denial too, as we all wanted this show to be great. Alas.
To butcher a cliche ....turns out that Denial is a river in Numenor.
That 8/10 rating reaction tho 🤣
I agree about Halbrand in theory but not execution. I thought the idea of a platonic relationship between Halbrand and Galadriel was a nice way to humanize Halbrand and add more meaningful conflict, and the parallels between the two characters could have been really great. I just don't think the people who made Rings of Power know how to make a television show.
The story from RoP of how Galadriel and Celeborn met is lifted straight from the story of Beren and Luthien, which was in turn inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien's relationship with his wife. Specifically, the part of Luthien, the most beautiful woman in the history of Middle-earth, dancing in the meadow is based on something Tolkien's wife Edith would do for him. Tolkien even had "Luthien" inscribed on Edith's headstone when she passed, paired with "Beren" for his own.
It may seem like another example of the showrunners throwing fans a bone from The Silmarillion (which they don't have the rights to), but it's more an insult to the lore because they appropriate something that was of particular importance to Tolkien and gave it to another character.
To build on the note of the subpar costuming - Celebrimbor's haircut and velvet robe reminded me of my late grandma in one of her winter pullovers.
And to Brandon, when you have ~$60 million per episode, "Yeah we wanted to do that" stops being a valid excuse/deflection. Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon were, with some notable hiccups, *cough* Long Night *cough* able to deliver *far* more with far less. "Good ideas on paper that end up looking bad on screen" is where you need more experienced showrunners; individuals who've seen or even made these mistakes in the past and have learned how to avoid them, especially when you're talking about a show based on arguably the most beloved IP of all time, with an obscene per episode budget, that *needed* to be a global mega hit on par with the movies 20 years ago.
Thankfully Brandon was the voice of reason.
As for the plilantir I never got the impression that they were evil, just dangerous. I hadn't thought that sauron had corrupted any, he was just capable of corrupting and over powering people through them.
I didn't get that in this, I hadn't thought the pilantir had driven him mad, but instead fear and terror of the eventual fall of numenor, along with possibly some ohysical sickness.
yeah book RotK makes it pretty clear that Minas Tirith's palantir didn't exactly "corrupt" Denethor. He looked into it seeking information on how to defeat or impede Sauron, and the dark lord was powerful and crafty enough to only show that which would lead him to despair. One can imagine something similar happening to Saruman as he studied Sauron.
It's quite compelling; the idea of a neutral tool, a sender and receiver of information, spreading corruption when wicked and wily beings use it to their ends. There is prescience that Tolkien, who died 20 years before the invention of the internet, could not have forseen. LOTR is timeless.
21 minutes in.
What tips Galadriel off is a line that Celimbrimbor says which is line for line something that Ardar quotes Sauron as saying in her conversation with him. The phrase contains "power over flesh". Because the phrasing is so close the only reasonable conclusion is that Celimbrimbor has been in contact with a servant of Sauron. I thought this beat subtle and really well done but does realie on the audience remembering the exact wording in a conversation in a previous episode.
I'm surprised that they like RoP more than WoT, RoP was so so bad or maybe worse, boring. Though I think I liked the beginning and middle of Wheel of Time show a lot more than most fans. Yes, the ending was disappointing, but if you have to emergency rewrite to handle losing a main character and covid restrictions, it's just not going to be as good. The one unforgivable change that keeps me from calling WoT great was the Dragon identity mystery. Saying the Dragon could be a woman wrecks the entire premise in the name of faux gender balance. Everyone is terrified of a mad man channeling. A woman with Dragon talent would be the most celebrated sister in a long while and promoted fast, not an object of fear. I give most of the show like an 8 and then knock it to a 5-6 due to that and the ending. RoP you need pages to go over all the things wrong or disappointing.
At least with Brandon, I know he's a bigger fan of WOT than LOTR so it's normal to be less bothered by the mess made of something you didn't care quite as much about. I'm not a WOT fan myself, but from I've heard it was quite the disaster.
Why are these nerds so f**king cool
Oh cool, I wasn't the only one getting Lady Macbeth vibes from Disa at the end :P
she went full palpatine is what she did. Trying to create her own little vader.
When Dan was teasing who he thinks is the dumbest character, I was "Galadriel? Galadriel! He's gonna say Galadriel. Galadriel, of course. Oh..."