Why I Harden In Water VS Oil
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2018
- In this video, i talk about oil hardening steel versus water hardening steel. I further discuss the heat treatment process here and in other videos on my channel. If you'd like to learn about the blacksmith harden and temper, checkout the list of videos below. I use heat treating 1045 steel as an example.
COMMENT: What do you do for heat treatment of steel? How often have you gone about oil hardening tool steel? Or do you prefer water hardening steel?
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Personally I quench my blades in the blood of my enemies, but each to his own.
Fills it with some good carbon
Piss is better
You make the same comment on all channels
hello guys today we will quench in john or in sam
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you so much for the general answer. I know NOTHING about Steel or tempering or hardening but have lately become fascinated with this as I do with occasional subjects and this was a question that I wanted answered. Ta. Appreciated.
Fantastic explanation, this really helps and I’ll be trying this for some of my tools now, thank you!
This is a great tutorial (but then, you have MANY such videos). Why though I'm not a blacksmith, I keep tuning in. You have so much to teach and convey information well. May the Lord continue to bless you. ~ matt (the cowboy viking)
Do tell more about your slide rule with heat treat info
Nice video. Thank you for sharing knowledge.
Thanks for the information Roy. Great video.
Thanks. Questions answered.
My blade-smith is a retired NASA rocket scientist. He super quench cools horseshoe and railroad spike blades in a solution of water , liquid soap , and salt. The hot blades scream while more carbon is trapped in the metal. He makes Damascus out of S-2 (recycled jack hammer bits , O-1 tool steel , and mild steel.
Are the tool steels in oil?
Great info, thanks!
I use 5160 more than anything for the professional grade throwing knives I make and cell which are considered one of the toughest throwing knives available. For the purpose I use 5160 for I use Parks AAA quenchant preheated to roughly 130°F. Only other two steels I ever use are 80CRV2 which I use Parks AAA for, and at times I make and release a run of throwers made of W2 tool steel which I use Parks 50 for.
By quenching we rapidly cool a piece of steel in order to retain a cristal structure which makes the steel hard.
Water is a faster way of cooling compared to oil and air, brine is even faster.
Low carb steels usually needs a faster cool in order to retain as much hardness they can provide( due to their carbon content which is small and makes the steel less capable of being very hard)...
In case of steels with higher carbon content or higher alloy steels( other metals is steel often increase hardness beside bringing other things) watercooling is too agressive and things like cracks/inner stress areas/deformation may occur so a slower cooling environment is needed( oil,air,etc)...
That is al in very basic and short way of explaining things.
There are exceptions, high carbon which quench in oil..W1 ( used for making files in the past) is one common example...BUT the rule of thumb is to quench in oil first and use water only in case of using mild steels of steels you know they quench in water...
Way to go is quench in oil...if the steel is too mild/low carbon,it will not be hard enough...if so, try again with more agressive environment,water or brine...
Liviu e Thanks, that was a very easy and concise explanation
Liviu e ì
Liviu e which oil is best. Motor engine oil can be use?
Nice explanation. To put a little finer point on it, albeit perhaps a bit more technical, steels are broken down into groups: Water-hardening group, Cold-work group (which includes the A, O, and D family of steels), Shock-resisting group, High-speed group, Hot-working group, and the Special-purpose group. Each group contains one or more families of steel which is each divided by hardening medium, such as the Water-hardening and Cold-work groups, or by the specific characteristics of that family for that task.
Water-hardening is just that, steels that are hardened using a water quench, hence the name "W1, W2", etc. The Cold-work group contains the A, O, and D families of steel. The "A" stands for "Air hardening" and "O" stands for "Oil hardening", but the D series is a high carbon-chromium family, so the "D" doesn't really stand for anything.
Within these two groups the O and W family steels are probably representative of the majority of steel types used in knife and tool making in home shops. So, you may ask, what makes W steel versus O steel? A generalization states that the higher the carbon content, the slower the steel can be quenched to achieve hardness, but more importantly to also avoid cracking or other issues, however, there are many factors and caveats surrounding this very generalized belief. The primary consideration for quench rate is the entirety of alloying agents used in the particular steel and their amounts. For example, according to ASTM standards, W1 steel can contain a higher carbon content than O1 steel, yet it is still water quenched. This is true because O1 steel contains a much higher amount of manganese than W1. O1 having allowable manganese content of 1% - 1.4%, whereas W1 standards only allow 0.1% - 0.4%. One of the effects of manganese in the alloy is to reduce the critical cooling rate to achieve hardness, so this makes sense, but at the same time sort of busts the carbon content ratio generalization.
Now, with alloys aside, what exactly is hardening and why does carbon steels get hard when heated and quenched? This has to do with changes in the steels' chemical and grain structures during the heating and cooling process. In an an annealed state, steel is composed of pearlite (a lamaner structure of ferrite and cementite), this is its softest phase, or form. In metallurgical terms, this known as a "euctectoid steel." When you heat the steel, there is a temperature known as the, coincidentally, "eutectoid temperature", but is commonly called the "critical temperature" where the steel's structure begins to change into "austenite." Austenite, in that crazy metallurgy terminology, is known as "gamma-phase iron." This is where the "magic" happens, so to speak.
Pearlite crystal structures are known as "BCC", or "Body-Centered Cubic" structures, and this is important. Imagine a square box or cube. A BCC structure will have an atom at each of the 8 corners of the cube and a single atom right in the very middle for a total of 9 atoms. Without going even more technical (it's hard not to!) just understand that this arrangement means you can only fit X number of atoms in a given space.
Now, when the steel is heated past it's critical temperature, the phase change that occurs is from a BCC structure to an FCC, or "Face-Centered Cubic" structure. In this arrangement, you have the same 8 atoms at each of the cube's corners, but instead of a single atom in the very center of the cube, you now have an atom at the center of each planer, or "face" side, like having a die that has a single dot on all 6 faces. Now we have room for 14 toms where previously we could only fit 9. This change represents a density change, austenite is packing more atoms in its FCC space than pearlite did in its BCC space. And, in this case, the austenite then allows the crystal structure to absorb more carbon atoms from the carbon in the steel's alloy. Incidentally, austenite is not ferromagnetic, this is why you'll see blacksmiths and knife makers use a magnet to check their heated steel to see if it is up to correct temp before quenching.
The last state or goal is to end with "martensite", the final form of the steel in its hardest state. This achieved by the quench, or rapid cooling. If you allow the steel to slowly cool, the carbon in the austenite will slowly diffuse out of the crystal structure (it has to, because we're going from that 14 atom space back to a 9 atom space) and the steel will return to its soft pearlite state. If you cool the steel quickly enough, you prevent the carbon from diffusing out and you effectively "freeze" the steel in its high-carbon crystal structure, or martensite and voila! you have hardened steel. Of course, you'll want to temper it back some degree so it isn't so brittle, and the amount you do that is determined by the tool you are creating.
If we consider that hardening of steel, at least at it basic form, revolves around carbon content and rate of quench, it has been posited that any steel is hardenable as long as you can quench it at the correct rate. Some research at the Los Alamos National Laboratory resulted in hardening of mild steels using specialized quenchants, but we're really getting into a zone of doing something simply for the sake of doing it because carbon steels are rather simple and you can easily purchase steels today with practically any carbon content and/or alloy agents for whatever task you want or need. Simply put, there is no practical use for hardening mild steel. Case hardening of mild and lower carbon steels is done in some types of work, but this involves carburizing the steel (adding carbon to a thin portion of the outside of the piece) then hardening that to provide a somewhat harder "case" around the internal softer steel, for example machinist's "123 blocks" or other such tools, sometimes it is done for easthetic reasons, such as color case hardening on firearms, etc.
Do you have a video or can you educate me on the process of hardening a hammer and bringing it down?
Thanks Roy
I have a question you may be able to help with, recently some expensive exhaust components on my truck grew legs and walked away. Seems to be a large problem right now.
So my solution to prevent this is to weld rods onto the exhaust so that it would be almost impossible to cut through with a Sawzall, which seems to be the tool of choice for this. A grinder will probably cut through anything, hardened or not so I'm not concerned with that. It will be custom bent and then welded to the exhaust system. The problem is that nobody seems to be able to help with what metal to recommend. I didn't want anything that I had to send out for heat treating, that's very expensive, I could oxy/acetylene torch it and quench it on my own, but not sure if that will do anything if the tempering process is skipped. Hoping you could help advise me in some way.
i WAS thinking about tempering my screwdriver drill bits & wrench & pliers
but now i dont know which one even CAN be tempered in oil and reheated and such... or which one even needs them
im making a kitchen knife with very thin blade 1mm stainless steel. i really want it to be as hard as possible because i dont need flexibility and it will be only for cutting. since its a thin blade is it overkill to quench in water? im not asking for ,,right'' answer because i know there is more factors involved i dont know about steel etc but what do you think?
Thank you very information
O1 seems to be a steel that likes oil,steels I can't identify I start with water and go from there.As I live on the ocean sea water is what I normally use
I quench rebar in brine or ice. After quenching, it easily wrecks concrete in the form of a cold chisel.
I always wondering this: all the factories have heat treat metal sheets with heat deggrees for any kind of steels. BUT all these numbers are calculated for steels to be tools! and NOT knives with very thin edges. So is anyone knows where to find heat treat metal sheets especially for knives?
Does anyone know where I can find 1045 at the scrapyard? More specifically, does anyone know what pieces of scrap could possibly be 1045? Hydraulic shafts, pins, something? Thanks all!
Hydraulic piston shafts are usually 1045 with hard chrome plating. It's also commonly used for things like driveshafts and axles, basically anything where more strength than mild steel is needed but not enough to justify an alloy steel like 4140.
what do you think about vaccuum heat treating?
Using scrap steel, is there a way to determine one type of steal from another to help determine oil or water quench?
Spark test it
wow, first time I have heard anyone mention the various types of steel...I love you depth of knowledge and pursuit of the truth!
What is best fo 15N30 & 1095 damaskus ????
In a video that you did last year on hardening and tempering you stated that you primarily quench in oil when making tools, and here you are saying that you primarily quench in water... I am relatively new to this and would like a little clarification if you would please. Thank you, like the style of vids you make here.
My chiseles for chasing I quench in water and my tooling for top tools and the like I quench in oil because they do not need as much hardness. Different tooling and steels require different methods based upon use of that tool. So at that time I was predominantly making top tools in there for using an oil quench method. But my chasing chisels have always been hardened in water. The subject of hardening and tempering is very long and Broad so you may just hear me say several different ways of doing the same thing. Hope this helps clarify God bless you and thank you for the comment
thank you for taking the time to respond. Your a very talented young man.
Good advice. Spot on, imho about the type of tool and how it can be hardened. But I think you failed to mention the thickness vs the surface area of the piece you are hardenin and tempering. A knife is of much thinner material and much easier to ruin by cooling too quickly. Also some knifemakers may grind the bevel(s) while the material is in a softer state making the material even thinner. Hence another reason to quench thin material in oil. Just my $0.02 LOL.
Thing is you need parks 50 to quench 10(84)and 51(60) steels. They need a fast quench to fully harden. You want the softening to be done in the temper, not the quench. Very different chemistry in the steel going on. Toughness comes from temper, hardness comes from quench. Want basically neither? Quench in canola.
How do I heat treat tools that was damaged by a shop fire like wrenches and punches?
Get hot, quench in oil or water and then temper in a toaster oven. Since you won't know the exact composition of the steel you probably want to start with the slowest quenchent first and check that it hardened with a file, with the tempering 400° farenheit works for knives with the simple steels and with most other tools benefit from a somewhat higher tempering temperature.
For most i use oil, and then temper after, others I use air and alloy blocks,
where is the sample? so that we can understand
will crome vandalium steel will be better if i quench it in water or oil?
if i were you id use sea salt water or Epsom salt, it would be a stretch with borax mixed water but i'm not an expert i'm just stating what works with me
Use water, but differentially.
I’ve been digging for my forge steel in a junk pile. How can I know what kind of steel I’m using so that I may use the proper quench liquid? How does one determine this?
Thanks for your videos. Merry Christmas!
test grind the unknown steel next to a steel you are sure of . the sparks will show you the amount of carbon and alloy. steel manufactures are the best source for info. try to be consistent with temperature and time when hardening and tempering. have fun..
I prefer water that has tweaked additives that some might call unicorn pee, you can be creative. Alkaline baths can be super chilled with dry ice which might add some carbon to the surface during quenching, borax, Epsom salt, sea salt.................... Let us think about this critically for a second. Nordic Ancestors, Blacksmiths,living on the shores of the north sea, where the ocean is super cooled below freezing, yet because of the Saline content that water is still liquid well below freezing. Add in Iron high in tungsten and hot forges wood fired high carbon high temps and you have legendary weapons! Or at least that's how my minds sees it looking back in time. Great Video, here to learn, thank you and may the love of Christ compel you brother, blessings and aloha td #LOVEWINS
Aloha to you as well :-)
God bless you and Your Family!
so there is no difference if the water is cold or hot? if there is a difference what is it?
@@Toolmamon what's the difference?
I watched Forge In Fire enough to make me a master bladesmith and I can tell you that you never quinch in water. The judges will get mad, your blade will not keeaalll and you will get cracks and the blade will explode in water. I have watched every episode so trust me I know what I am talking about.
I just quenched my 1st knife in oil and IDK wtf steel I have but its a 12" circ saw blade.. The file test I've seen it "skates" off. I am now tempering in the oven. Hell to me it'd be like "i gotta get it hot and drown in liquid, I dont know characteristics of diff steel or benefits/downfalls of em. It literally is a science from the makeup of the steel and diff properties.. As a novice just making a blade to say i did it i am happy with my table saw blade knife and it seems like thr quenching process working for me by the file sound and hardness.
Thanks for the video bud ! 👍👍
Thanks alot, when you said ok google my google popped up 😅
this is i topic where you can spend years of your life studying i have a friend that studied metalogy for 2 years he can give great descriptions on a steel if you can say how old the equipment is and what equipment its off. i upset him one time by telling him i use a gas burner because apparently gas burners take out carbon from steels
Charcoal Forges,(Carbon) steel - iron with manganese tungsten cobalt... Icy cold ocean.... Norway Sweden, mythic steels.
Why is your healthbar so long?
Anyone know what steel rebar is made from. Thanks
RedForge Tools ltd R deffew rebar is a very low low carbon steel if any carbon at all
john kotlarchick ok thanks appreciate it. I can harden it in water pretty well
Steel. (I had to do that)
Rebar has different grades grade 40 is like 1040 steel fairly low carbon grade 60 is similar to 1080 and grade 75-80 is sinilar to 1095
In Mexico, rebar is spring steel and is commonly made into chisels.
Ummmm. Google brought me here. lol
Me too
is oil quenching good for 9260?
Not sure I would check a steel spec sheet
Yes, because that alloy is spring steel.
5160 hates water it shatters
Rebar is much easier to water quench.
May the light , of the morning star ⭐ .fall upon your soul.
Thank you and you as well 😊
I quench 4140 in water, but differentially. Kinda like the Japanese.
I google for info.. the info i get tells me to google it... lmao
Hmmmm ...wtf did u say.... Something about chasing some steel......how far do you have to chase it
Chasing tools. Look it up.
Thank you. May allah bless you ❤
TEMPERED AND SOFT(!) GLASS PROCESS ARE KNOWN SINCE ANTIQUETY!!! 😮😮😅😅😅😊❤
Ok Google damm it lol, my phone opened Google.
cool vid...turn down or off that backround music. I cant believe Im the only one mention this extremly distracting music
All men know damn well about the varying hardness of their tool...
My google search brought me here...
Do not put your trust in horse's or in the "son of man".