STEEL HEAT TREATING CLOSEUP - WATER VS OIL [Trollsky Knifemaking]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2019
- It is not a tutorial video. I just focused on the visual side of the hardening process under the surface of a liquid.
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This video implies that water quenching is bad, oil quenching is good-but that simply is not the case. Different compositions of steel perform best with water or brine, others are best with various types of oil. The temperature of the quench medium can make a difference as well.
And, as others have pointed out, a quenched steel without tempering will be brittle, regardless of what medium it is quenched in.
S2 steel screwdriver with brine can make rust? Which one better to hardness sir?
@@asepd7159 ?!
Exactly. Depends on herdeneability. Šime are best quenched in water, some in oil, some even in the air. It just depends on material which metod is best for it.
فولاد رو دوبار کوئنچ کنید شکننده میشود
You did a great job with the lighting, background, and filming. It was really interesting to see the forge scale flaking off and exposing the still glowing metal underneath
Yes
2Q
Any Sunday with a video from one of my favorite craftsmen, is a good Sunday.
If you don't temper after quenching, oil quench will also break easily..
I agree...!
Yes all in all if warping or breaking isnt concerned then water quench is better.
@Richard Falch It's true but not critical.
Hard Case depends on the metal. There are metals that would be useless as a knife if you quench in oil because the edge would roll over with mild use.
Tempering is needed for any
Steel that isn’t made to either be soft or to break easily. This is why iron was worked by man longer than bronze but It was softer than bronze until they learned how to properly harden it without making it overly brittle.
@@stlalways6715 You need a TTT diagram (time-temperature-tranformation) for a given batch of material (yes, it's different for every batch, not just for every type of steel) and you need to choose a cooling speed between the upper critical and lower critical. Oil is slower cooling medium than water, so mr. Trollsky in this example probably didn't get a 100% Martensite structure (cooling speed less than lower critical speed) and there was less heat stress in the material so oil quenched specimen was not so brittle. A good rule of thumb is: construction steels with less than 0,8% of carbon are quenched in water, tool steels over 0,8% C are quenched in oil, high speed steels and highly alloyed tool steels are "quenched" in air.
I'm loving the new editing style and music. Really cool practical explanation of different quenching techniques and their down falls. Videography is advancing also, your killing it bud keep up the good work.
The most violent quenching liquid is brine. If you agitate the steel, it dissipates the steam and the scale, so it cools even quicker
The fastest that I know of is water mixed with amonia.
This was actualy interesting, thank You for uploading.
An expansion of this test could be how different dipping angles and moving around the object are affecting the outcome, many beginners does not know about that.
I newer taught about how those different fluids are affecting the hardshells in such different ways.
However, when i was on the axe factory here we used water, but it's much harder to master, for knives i also use oil if i hawe it at hand.
(With water the tempering is very important to prevent what You are showing here as well as not owerheting and ruin the quenching duting the tempering process)
I always do the finegrinding after the tempering (i always forge the blade a bit thicker than the final aim partly to prevent decarbonation but mainly to be able to correct warp) in order to correct fine warp, it seem to work as long as one are careful not to accidentaly build up heatstress in the steel after the tempering process.
Easiest is actualy to use an dold watergrindstone since it does not risk owerheating the material as modern highspeed grinders.
Thank you for taking the time to show us in a very clear visual way the "differences" in quench media. I'm know expert but, i work with metal a lot for income plus personal interests. There are reasons for both quenches! If you're willing, in the future you should a salt water quench too! That was crazy how differently the metals reacted! Good show!
Thanks.
Absolutely stunned by the brittleness of that knife. Didn't realise when you quench the knife in water it makes that music!!! Blown away
Why didn’t you test the oil quenched knife the same as the water quenched. I’m sure it would have still snapped, just not quite as easily.
Zoom in on the skull quench and make that your badge!
5th Horseman it’s pretty cool :)
I don’t think so. The oil is more viscous than the water so as the fluids heated up the convection currents in the oil were not able to move as quickly as those in the water. This prevents the cooler liquid from transferring heat out of the steel too quickly allowing it to become less brittle after the quench. Either way it should be tempered so it wouldn’t matter as much.
Shottygolfer1 It depends at what heat the steel was before quenching. steel will become brittle after a hardening quench regardless of what you use to quench anyway, the tempering cycle comes after. As to why I said he should have tested it. I know oil cools is slower, but what’s the result in it? He doesn’t compare. Usually people use it for a more controlled quench to stop warping
very good point made
For hardening in water you need lower lemparatures than for oil because water takes heat away a lot faster than oil (as you said in the video). I usualy harden in almost boiling water so it doesn t cool the steel so fast.
Also tempering to reduce the inner forces in the steel making it bend and break easily.
boiling water at 100C verses 21c is still a massive shock to a steel blade cooking around 870C and not an appreciable difference. There's a reason oil hardened steels are listed as oil hardened. If you could get water up to a higher temperature then it might help but water boils into a gas as we all know at 100c assuming standard air pressure. The issue is water's rapid ability to heat up and evaporate/boil off via convection currents etc and shed heat, causing the steel to be cooled at a much more rapid rate. Oil's heat up much slower than water and has an overall lower heat capacity. Heat transfers to the oil and is lost from the entire mixture at a much slower and more controlled rate. Hence why it is superior
@@Neonator08 different steels need different quenchants. saying one is better than the other is idiocy.
This is why you’re my fav knife making channel on TH-cam. 🙏🙏🙏
You didn’t test the blade after quench in oil.
This video ìt's completly USELESS, he only show how to dip a piece of red hot steel... ( if it is realy steel )😅 into water or cooking oil ( i do not think it's canola... Canadian Oil Low Acid )❗
This video is perfect to show people why using water isn't so great. Could not have asked for a better video man! I'll definitely keep this in my back pocket if I'm ever teaching someone how to get started! Thank you!
This was such an awesome idea!!! I loved getting to see the process up close!
Awesome video on this topic. I thank you so very much for the time and effort to setup that tank. The lighting was perfect and was kind of satisfying to watch. As always I am impressed with your work and thankful to have found this channel.
Oh! Useful technology with simple home features. it's interesting for learn, thanks.
Interesting video and very well executed. I appreciate the effort you put in the filming setup - lights, white background, slow motion.
Thanks for doing what I’ve always wanted to do myself. These are a great set of observations to study and draw information from...👍
Michael, love to watch you forge. I was just binge watching Forged In Fire from the first episode and I’ll make it to the last of
Season 7, so far. But my point is I just saw the international episode and loved it as always, season 4 episode 20 I think and although you went home early, I love watching you
Thank you, Trollskyy. Very coolski!
Piękne. Człowiek się uczy całe życie. Dzięki :)
I’m glad you are back thank you.
Good to see a new video, we need more! It would be interesting to measure the temperature drop in both liquids.
Dude nice video. I like how you shown how brittle the steel gets. I've been making knives since I was 11 and I'm 30 so I know my stuff. This is a very good demonstration. Good job. I also cryogenic treat my blades as well.
This is a really cool video format/concept. I'd like to see more like these and the ASMR / 'Knife Stories.' Keep up the good work - keep posting!!
Well we knew this. BUT, seeing it is very interesting! You went to a lot of trouble and expense to do this for us. Thank You!
I'd imagine the water quenched knife would be fine after tempering as long as it didn't crack. But the warp and the cracking risk is the rub.
I've never found the need to use water (I use soy oil for thin water hardening steel items - it's cheap and it flows well, even if not preheated) in chasing hardness, but I have quenched in oil and broken a knife just the same way you showed with water (prior to tempering).
I make only as a hobby, so I've not had to solve any warpage issues - i leave enough to grind them off post treatment, but it's a little limiting. Files and razors have always been straightened after a quench - both are water hardening steel most of the time, but I never paid attention to find out if they're tempered quickly and then straightened (I think that's the case). I attempted to tap a pocket knife blade that warped slightly years ago - a single light tap and it broke like glass (it was oil quenched, but made from 1095 - and not tempered).
Always liked the style of your videos, glad you are making more!
Very awesome video, learned this the hard way with my first knifes. Days of work completely ruined! Hope someone learns the easy way from this video.
I have always wanted to see this comparison! Thanks for posting this!!
Pure genius mate...really interesting. Thank you for the video.
I was surprised at how brittle the steel became. Very interesting video.
Good shit mate keep it coming we are in awe🤟🏼
Really was surprised how brittle became the steel quenched in water. Really nice little test. The thanks for the effort.
That was a great freaking video! Thanks for taking time out of your work to do some science for you tube land.
Your videos inspire me a lot! You're a really good knife maker!
I am from India and here traditional blacksmiths are nomads and they are expert blacksmiths for generations, and all quench their steel in water with excellent results , I too have made chisels and other tools successfully, no one here even knows of oil quenches,
YOUR VIDEO is incomplete till you study about water quench
All the hardened steel is like glass after quench it, that's the idea of make a quench, then you reduce the hardness and brittle by draw two tempers after quench, different steels, diferent quenchants, the low carbon steel can get better in water than oil, if you need a bainitic structure you quench in melted salts, what the mean of this video? Water quenching is wrong? Yeah, for some steels or too thin blades yes but is useful in many ways, sorry but the video lack of perspective and data.
You my man are a saviour.
Appreciate the information 👍👍😁
Co zrobiłeś z tym olejem? Passacik w TDI by na nim pojeździł jeszcze!
Frytki zrobił.
Zostawił do hartowania
@@Abyssaal1 no i smaku narobiłeś... Muszę teraz kartofle skrobać..
Amazing video! Thank you for doing this
Very well done with the procedure and the setup and everything and the music I might add
amazing footage, thank you for sharing this!
Very interesting video and answers questions I’ve had thank you very much
Nice scientific approach. The video was actually very informative.
kolejna lekcja od czarodzieja a nie fałszywego proroka co dorabia rączki do mory.
czekamy na kolejne experymenty
Thats pritty cool to see the action inside the quenching tank..thanks for taking the time to do..well interesting for me a novice blade maker..thankyou
Super pokazane różnice. Powodzenia w dalszych pracach i filmikach 💪💪 Pozdro ✌
Glad to see you again.
Man...your channel is one of my faves. As a fellow bladesmith, I really dug seeing this video. Thanks man...you’re awesome.
Excellent. Straight up perfect content.
Good to see u making videos again
Made my evening! Thanks.
we all know quenching in oil doesn't give as much hardness as water, but for the professional knife maker you can get 95% of the hardness for a significantly reduced risk of cracking, which is worth because their job depends on reliability in making good knives.
I to są filmy warte obejrzenia, bez zbędnych cyrków, a konkretne ciekawostki.
this is a cool little video mate, thanks.
this was a cool experiment! Cool results nice video idea!
really cool videography! but, I have a question about the water quenching....could you have reduced the brittleness after quenching by tempering it? great video!
Excellent !!! Youre one of my favorite knife makers....
thanks mate !
That was badass! Way cool. 🔥💯😍
No to moja ciekawość została zaspokojona :) dzięki za film.
Interesting to watch. Nice camera work. I always enjoy the short video showing a katana blade deflect one way, then the other, during a water quench. It's amazing they don't just snap in half every time. I found it under the title "Templado de una katana - Detalle de la deformacion" on a channel called "supervideo". I don't know how to link to it, but it's only 11 seconds long with no music, narration, or text.
Great video. People need to see this.
actually there is a technique for water quenching to harden metal. Do not heat the metal up too hot. And another, do not fully submerged it in water, instead, slowly rinse and dip it in untill it is hardened.
I enjoyed that. Loved the skull rings👍🏻
"shiny and chrome ! "
Ummm yeah, that's why it's tempered after it's quenched.
That is true but sometimes it cracks when you quench it in water
@@cster9261 that's true too , but it doesn't do it because of water , it does it because of hundreds of different minute details like what sort of steel it is , does the piece of steel have micro fractures , have you done normalizing cycles right , how thin /thick it is , is there a stress point and so on and so forth , if done right it's not gonna crack but you never know it just might.
@@18IMAMGODINA I guess I should probably just know what steel I’m quenching but I never really know what steel I’m using because I always use reclaimed metal but you are very right .
Very cool to watch. Interesting stuff.
Havnt watched this guys video's in a while glad i stumbled across him again, subscribed, his english has gotten better i used to love the way he said he had to " greened the beevils" XD
The water appeared to give a secondary "explosive" heat release. This might be why the steel is more brittle with a water quince. As far as I know, you are the first to show this reaction. 👍
if you drop the metal temperature below its critical value quick enough, during quenching, austenit (microstructure of iron) will directly transform into martensite structure with is very brittle. Its linked with shearing iron atoms without diffusion. Oil absorb heat slower so probably there is more residual austenite or even different structure like bainite with is more ductile.
@@Olasty111
Isn't there, also, a different reaction from the oil due to it being carbon based? Water is hydrogen and oxygen so there would be no carbonation to the steel.
Ron, I also noticed that 2nd wave of bubbles.
Why is that going on?
awesome! hope to see more videos from you!
Great video. Interesting result. Thumbs UP.
Trolsky!!! Your the best!!
Hello! That was interesting video for me! Thank you!
Very interesting, my favorite channel.
Well in the first one its expected for it to break like that. Cuz if I got it right u kept "over cooking" it and cooling it down. But I think oil also helps with hardening? Or is it just coating it?
thanks man i learned something new for life
In my experience steel is brittle when I quench regardless of whether I use oil or water, so long as I don't have any cracks the results are fairly similar after I temper the blade.
Some steels require oil, so if you don't know what metal you have for absolute certain, use oil.
Also, he did get some warping supposedly from quenching in water.
@@cavscout888 the oil quenching steels are just more prone to cracking, it is still sometimes possible to get a good result with water.
@@garethbaus5471 Do you want to spend potentially hours or days on a part, just to ruin it from quenching in water? Again, some steels actually REQUIRE oil. No option. Some will be fine enough with either. None that I know of require water quenching...
Don't put the fishes in the oil !! Haha! Very informative to be able to view that and also a good visual show! Even my girlfriend watched it twice! Thank you so much Trollskyy for taking the time to do this video!! Cheers!
If you put fishes heat the oil to 350 F then tasty fishes
Great experiment, good job
Drogi Trollsky. Bardzo bym prosil rowniez o polska wersje tytułu i przynajmniej polskie napisy jesli juz mowisz po angielsku. Odnosnie Twojej pracy.. co tu duzo mowic. Swietna robota, bije poklony!
very very very interesting video! Again, bravo!
Didn't expect all that scale to fall off. wow. Have you tried "Superquench"? Homemade brew of water, salt and soap?
Love it. Subscription activated
first time somone showed the difference thanks dude
Great info, great video.
Mama will be so angy about the oil😂
😂
As i understand it, water above 120 degrees F is a less drastic quench than cold water. I used to user transmission oil heated to about 120 for oil hardening steel like O1 and 52100. transformer oil or horse-drenching oil, both light mineral oils, are good quench mediums. You can use them at 100 F. You can also flash quench, ie pull the blade out of the water as soon as it's black.
Top de linha 👏👏👏
awesome thanks man. have a good one.
Very good quality video and audio. Well done !
Muy interesante el test¡¡ gracias.
Based on my understanding of the hardening process of carbon steels, theoretically, the water quenched blade should be superior to the oil quenched. Of course, the blade must be tempered to reduce its brittleness. In practice, we tend to avoid water quenching to prevent cracking. Carbon steel hardens as a process of the soft perlite undergoing a phase change to austenite at and above its critical temperature. Quenching, for a lack of better terms, "short circuits" the phase change, or decalesence point whereby the austenite will revert back to perlite if left to cool slowly (this would be considered annealing). By removing the heat as fast as possible, the austenite converts to martensite and because the energy is removed so quickly, does not have the opportunity for the carbon and other alloying elements to fall out of solution.
Even the best hardening regemine will never convert all of the austenite to martensite. The thicker the material, the more difficult it is to remove the heat quickly. There will always be some "retained austenite" (usually referred to as "RA). This is why cryogenic treating is successful as the process of cooling the steel further allows much of the RA to convert to martensite.
Hardening is pretty much an "all or nothing" affair. We can't quench at lower temperature or for lesser periods of time to try to control final hardness, that's why we have to temper, and that we can control much more easily.
Typically, what we do with forge hardening is a compromise. It's less than perfect, but we trade perfectness for practicality and also why most hobby or home bladesmiths make their knives exclusively from carbon steels. Stainless and some of the exotic "super steels" require a much more precise heat treating schedule, temperature control, etc. It's possible to increase the accuracy and consistency in heat treating the carbon steels by using precisely controlled heating ovens and consistent quenchant temperatures, but this can get expensive.
Very neat sir! Thank you!
Excellent video .. Thank you
Ciekawy filmik. Szkoda, że nie pokazałeś jak zachowuje się stal hartowana w oleju. Zabrakło tego jako podsumowanie całości testu. Czy ta stal pękająca była po odpuszczeniu ?
Cool visualization
Wow!
Very good idea!
Thank you, I have always wondered qbout seeing quenches.
I don’t a thing about quenching or anything with heat treating, but does the metal orientation during the quench matter? Is there a difference if it’s held edge pointed down vs broad side down?
As Daug would say, “it will not keel”
Yes
That gut was the best part of the show but it frustrates me that that made Blade Smith's make guns and make the people work with coins and other with real plates.tgen they say it has to be a certain length for fairness.