Discussing Morality w/Atheist; Atheist Gives Surprising Response
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2014
- An atheist challenges Frank at Southern Illinois University on God, truth, and right and wrong. After a few minutes of discussion, you may be surprised how the atheist responds.
#FrankTurek #Christianity #Morality
![พาแม่บินครั้งแรก..เกือบวูบ! ให้เกาหลีเยียวยาใจ I Korea Ep.1 [Seoul] x อุงเอิง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/waL3__dEQBU/mqdefault.jpg)
I can tell that this atheist is seeking for TRUTH rather than a debate he can win.
True, but sadly he's looking in the wrong place
As an atheist, I love this video. It shows how this kid is learning, exploring and thinking about both sides of the argument. He will probably go back and realize how silly tureks points were. Turek, of course being another religious fanatic that fails to ever see both sides.
Pimpjit85 you saw this video and yet to fail to understand what Frank explained.
Kaustav Chowdhury tell me one thing you learned from Turek and I bet I can make a fool out of you. It's no surprise that Turek has never spoke on any real forum with an educated opposition. He wouldn't last 5 minutes.
Pimpjit85 just take a point from his argument and attempt to debunk it or prove it wrong (you won't be able to) if you're gonna call him out and say his points were silly, the burden of proof is on you to show us where you think he is wrong.
Also, he's debated people like Christopher Hitchens
"Eat this mic....it'll cure your atheism"
I thought he was trying to shove it up his nose!
"cure"? atheism is not a disease ;)
@@kevinbarbe799 I’m an atheist.
@@dondiibnob5512 Sorry, I didn't get the sarcasm in your comment (if it was one)
@@kevinbarbe799 it was, all good
Microphone guy is dialed in..... there is no way this young man's voice wont be heard in this room. NOT ON MY WATCH!!!
Connor K Yes! Love it. He isn’t playing with this task he was given
Lol he is the only one who truly understands the guys argument
Connor K fr!!! He said I’ll make sure this man is HEARD!
You got me bro😂😂😂
lol "not on my watch" ahahahahah
"Hmmm... if he eats the microphone, then I won't need to stand here and hold it."
😂😂
🤣🤣🤣
Hehe,good one
😂😂
😂😂
If only that guy held the mic a little closer so I could hear.
Will Pz
Hahahahaha. I was thinking the same thing. I hope that he had clean hands because he was pretty much touching his lips.
I can't stop looking at his hand right under his lip... Hahahaha
Haha my exact thoughts lol
@@scosoexterior9125 Lip flip.
Will Pz 😂😂😂😭
LMAO, is that man trying to make him eat the microphone!
◢ ғreedoм ғroм aтнeιѕм ◣ they way he’s looking when he does it. “Eat it” “eat it”
Atheists say God is unobserved and unproven..... Yet the universe came from "Nothing"
😂😂😂 this comment 💀😭😂
I came to comment section JUST for this comment. LOL
hhahahahahahaha I was looking for this comment
The guy holding the mic is what my grandma looks like when I tell her I ate before I came to her house. No is not an answer 😂
LOL! That's EVERBODY'S grandma!
Shayna right!
Moroccan ?
You ate before going to grandma's? So disrespectful.
😄😄😄
Being able to concede a point in front of a crowd shows mental and emotional maturity
I think that guy standing next to him wanted him to swallow the microphone.
+Bryan Speer LOL.. I was thinking the same thing. Creepy
Lololololol I can't even watch the video anymore without thinking about what you said
+DoNotBeDeceived Hahaha!
Lol. Exactly! I was thinking the same thing.
hahahaha
I'm not religious in any way. But I also don't deny the existence of a God. Simply because I don't know.
To me, frank makes some excellent points. In fact, he really has got me thinking.
+jazza0007spy And the tooth fairy, and santa claus, and the celestial teapot orbiting around Saturn? Non of those things can be proven false. Do you also not deny their existence? You simply don't know.
+james pogrebetsky Do you believe in the supernatural?
+Ryan Shaffer never had a reason to. I believe in science. Couple hundred years ago, if you asked me, sure. I would have told you the red comet was a bad omen from God for telling death. Now? I know it's a comet that means absolutely nothing
james pogrebetsky Well you must believe in the supernatural, as there is no plausible scientific explanation (within natural laws) for the start of life on this planet or the creation of the universe without a supernatural explanation...
+Ryan Shaffer 100 years ago here was no explanation for a lot of things. 100 years before that, even more things .1000 years before that, almost nothing could be explained . What was lighting? Thors wrath. Just because something hasn't been explained yet, doesn't mean it has to be supernatural. And until you understand even 1% of scientific knowledge that the world currently holds, you shouldn't make such claims. It is a weak mind that jumps to supernatural towards things that haven't been explained yet. And half he time, they HAVE been explained, but no one bothers to look them up. You'd laugh at a man today that would claim some of the things claimed as super natural just a few hundred years ago, and you'd have been killed for doing that laughing, a few hundred years ago, as a blasphemer. Let that sink in. Ignorance is no reason to create super natural causes.
I have to say I actually liked Kyle. He wasn’t vicious or offensive or anything. He’s seeking truth and understanding. God bless you Kyle that you seek God in all his glory and trust in Jesus forever and ever Amen!
stop preaching to god. stop preaching to irrational thought. wish you used your head with rational thinking.
@@tombombadil1351 Ok let's have a rational discussion. First, let me ask you a question, if Christianity were true, would you be a Christian?
@@Malhaloc rephrase your question.
"christianity is true?" it is true there is a religion known as christianity
presumed question of intent:
"if the existence of god were true, would you be a christian?"
Only if I could verify the existence of god OR if the existence of god was fundamental to all other rational thought and decision making.
Example: The existence of the sun is true.
But can I honestly verify that it exists(as a big fiery ball in the center of our solar system)? or is it just some big light up in the sky 200 miles high?
Sure, I could verify its existence if I was smart enough and had access to technology.
But the other part of my statement, "Is the existence of the sun fundamental to all other rational thought?" Yes it is.
Why? Because if it did not exist, there would be a huge contradiction in many elements of what we have discovered and rationalized.
Its explanation coexists with everything we have built up.
So there are 2 cases for me being a christian:
verifiable evidence of god
OR
the existence of god is cohesive with all other rational induction of our observable reality
Technically, they are the same condition.
@@tombombadil1351 why is the sun there though?
Tom Bombadil Why not look at the placement of the sun as well. If it were closer we would burn up, farther away we would freeze! Another example of random chance? Or intelligence of our creator. I choose the the latter
Chuga chugs chuga choo choo
Here comes the mic
Open for the airplane....! Nom nom!
*nods and chuckles*
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That atheist guy is the coolest guy I have ever met..... A very beautiful conversation and discussion .... He is really sensible
.. you met him?
He was was a very cool guy!
Atheists are good people too ya know
@@Longshore79 and so thats a good point to start with the argumentation of turec
@@Longshore79 not all
Dang mic holder! I couldnt concentrate because of him - Beyond hilarious! 😂😂😂😂😅😅😅
Lol same
The dude holding the mic was very distracting and also enjoyable.
Had to watch it a couple times to get used to it to pay more attention to the words and when I did it made the video even more appealing.
If you don't know the Lord, go back and watch it again.
I hope you're blessed by it regardless!
Happy New Year
What’s up with the mic holder. Taste it taste it you know you want to.
Wants to make sure he's heard! Lol
seems like an honestly questioning skeptic, hope he's found the truth!
What is the truth? How can one find the truth in a subjective question?
@@dexter131 truth is when the mind/intellect conforms with reality?
@@francisryancabrera how does one separate reality from fantasy?
He already has the truth.
@@absofjelly then why does he have questions?
Does it seem to anyone else like the guy in the blue check shirt is trying to force-feed the microphone into the other guy's mouth? Heh!
I noticed that too. Like he is really close there. lol
😂😂😂😂💀💀😂😭😭😭
He's like, "Take the pill, please. Please, take the pill!"
Nah, he wasn't. It's just the camera angle. That black guy is actually using his weewee to hold up the mic.
Right lol he gets much closer and the guys head is going to press through the wall at times
Comments are gold. Everyone is just having a good time. Praise the Lord.
My problem with Turek's argument is that he assumes God is the moral standard. Which is also subjective. My standard is the well being for everyone, so my moral choices align those. But to follow them is a subjective view. You can replace "well being standards" with "God's standards". The choice to follow them is subjective
@@darryla449 God Bless You. 😔❤️✝️
I am glad I came to this channel. I simply love it.
That guy has a good heart ❤️ He’s genuinely just confused and needs answers, good on him!
How is he confused?
@@mattr.1887 How isn't he? Atheism is confusing and contradictory. That's mere fact not an insult. If you're insulted. You got problems I guess.
My man was so serious with that mini mic. He had it allll up in the questioner's face lol
😂😂😂😂 hilarious
He needs deliverance from the mic! Lol
T Rusky 🤣🤣
Got him up against the wall..literally
Lmbo 😂😂
First he needs to confess his doubts to God
I really hope God reached that guy! He seemed like a cool person who would be a great asset to the kingdom!
I really hope that guy does _not_ get indoctrinated by someone.
Amen
@@nupsi6 If he reaches that conclusion on his own after he has obviously struggled with it for a while, how could it be called indoctrination?
@@cadenorris4009 I did not refer to the conclusions he held when this video has been recorded.
I referred to the "hope" phrased above that he should get changed to become "a great asset to the kingdom". Which usually _does_ include indoctrination. The number of people who really voluntarily, based on their own, free, unguided research chose a religious doctrin to "believe" in is ridiculous small. Religious beliefs are a social phenomena, not a spiritual one, caused by culture, education and most of all social pressure in >99% of all cases. That is a conclusion all independent examinations of the topic come to ...
@@nupsi6 I would fundamentally disagree that people changing viewpoints usually includes indoctrination. Sure, I'll agree that kids are usually brought up in their religion from childhood, but that is just another aspect of culture, and if people are able to withstand the "indoctrination" until after becoming an adult, then it's going to be very hard for them to be indoctrinated in the future.
And if you are only religious for the sake of social status, then obviously you won't view it as a spiritual journey. I know people who have been indoctrinated by religion, and are blissfully ignorant of science, and I will agree with you, there are a lot of them. But a lot of people are also not indoctrinated, and can justify their beliefs and not be ignorant of the science. A lot of people who go to my church are that way.
But a lot of people at my old church were definitely indoctrinated, to where it felt like a cult. But that's why I left in search of a better church and a more personal relationship with my God.
Great quote by Frank: _"You (the atheist) are Importing a moral law into a frame that has no moral law."_ That says it all...if there is no God, then anyone's idea of morality is just as good as the next guy's.
Funny how Frank ran from the question. Is OWNING people as PROPERTY moral? Is punishing an Innocent man for the crimes or sins of someone else ever moral?
Completely false.
@@allthingsvending6195 he just said that when you read things there's context, obviously this kid never read the entire book where that is written but just take things out of context and think "ah ha! There's something wrong with the Bible" and goes along using it as an example to tell others why he doesn't believe in it. He probably just read that online somewhere. His whole belief system is based off that one part out of a book he's never read, and that is not smart at all. He's very idealistic and has a good heart but his rationality isn't there. He needs to read the Bible and choose whether or not to believe it after studying it good. You can't debunk the Bible from one passage.
And I see nothing wrong with that. Christanity has zero right to determine morality... ZERO!
@tim murphy Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity, and he said that the whole laws lies upon these two principles:
1. To love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2. To love your neighbor as yourself.
In doing so, you won't cheat your neighbor, hurt them, defraud them, kill them or do any harm to them...but to love them. And He went further, and said to love your enemies, to bless them and do good to them, not rendering evil for evil upon them. In demonstration of this principle, He laid down his life, allowing his persecutors to execute Him on a Roman cross for crucifixion...and while hanging there to die, He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
There is no higher moral standard than this!
-
Loved this! Loved the response from Frank (as usual!) and it was great to watch Kyle too - an obviously thinking person and didn't approach the subject aggressively as I so often come across.
Kirsty Black Grow up !
Frank seemed to be aggressive to me.
jason antigua She is obviously not the immature one here...
I hated this because Frank did not address the issue, he just addressed morality.
@King Amen-Tut-Ankh
Technically yes, but actually no.
We believe that morality comes from God because without God there is no standard of what good is [Actually no].
We believe that the Father, the Son(Jesus), and the Holy Ghost are the 3 persons of God and that Jesus is the one who created everything at the father's command [technically yes].
Dr. Turek lays out the foundation and poses some terrific questions that really make everyone think including Christians even and people who do believe in God. It's very educational even for those of us who are Christians. I applaud the atheists who are posing the questions to Dr. Turek in a respectful and thoughtful way and responding also as such. These are the types of talks we like to see, not fighting and back stabbing.
Like "we can't know what's better, unless we know what best is?" I thought that was particularly ridiculous. We can't know that a fresh, delicious, healthy meal from a 5 star restaurant is better than a 5 hour old value meal from McDonald's, unless we know what the "best" meal is?
Steven Burdick... the bible has never condoned slavery, never. the word of God never changes. most Christians and different dominations pick and choose which moral laws are relevant and convenient , which is still just is wrong.
Dr? Lol, the fucktard's questions were simple. If you found his shit "educational" I really pity you.
As far as a large adult hitting a child thinking it is discipline is ludicrous. It just shows the child that hitting people is okay. Children learn by example. There are better ways and most parents need to take a good parenting class to find out. The bible has a lot of ignorant things. Some people are bothered by the passages of scripture that they do not understand, but the ones that bother me are the ones that I do understand.
anonymous johnson there are many times when hitting someone is very ok. If i see a dude messing with my wife you better believe ill sleep fine after giving him a beating.
God bless this gentle guy! He is humble and respectful during the whole discussion⚘
The mic man knows how to do a job! Look at that dedication 😂😂😂😂
So few people in the comment section understand this argument or why it is so powerful.
Probably because it is one of the stupidest arguments advanced in defense of mythology.
Why would we understand made up fantasy nonsense ?
God provides no basis for morality as morality is whatever someone wrote in a book or a religious leader states a god wants. Morality based upon authority undermines people's development of making moral judgements based upon benefit or harm to others. What judgement was used to decide to let a book or others dictate rules they believe came from a mysterious source and what judgement is used to know when and how to apply the rules?
John Mills, please explain why its so powerful. Im interested in your opinion
Because this young man is one step closer to deliverance and salvation
That kid was great. Very kind and he had good questions.
To bad the answers were total garbage......
@@ChrisDied just because you're unable to understand the answers, doesn't mean they were bad. In fact, even Kyle himself was satisfied with them.
The moral argument is one of the weaker ones, but it is still formidable. Atheists are trying to answer it since they came down from the trees, and had no tangible success so far. The best stupidity they came up with is utilitarianism, which implies that actions that promote the most happiness (or prevents the most suffering) to the most people are the best actions.... congratulations, you just justified stalinist-style purges to create utopian societies.
@@matheusadornidardenne8684 if morals come from an unchanging god like yours, why does the morals change over time? Bible says slavery is permitted with a couple of silly rules.... yet we all know today that slavery is absolutely not moral in anyway shape or form...... in 100 or 200 years people might look back at us and think how immoral we were for eating animals....
Point is, your bible is made up by people that didnt have a clue how anything in the universe actually worked, they believed the earth is flat ffs, why would you take anything they say seriously??
@@ChrisDied morals do not change, our understanding of them change.
Just like gravity didn't change when Einstein changed our understanding of it with general relativity.
To say "slavery is not permitted in anyway shape or form" you clearly don't know what the word meant back then. I wish I could work for only 7 years and have all my debts paid. It was a moral and just system, in place to help the poor. Read the Bible before you try to criticize it.
I take what they say seriously because, through reason, I can recognize that the same Spirit that persuaded me into abandoning atheism and embracing christianity, was also present in what they wrote. Didn't they know the shape of the Earth? So what? If you think people read the Bible for astronomy lessons, you're too dumb to be having this conversation.
They lived in a time of unparallel suffering in our written history. We cannot begin to compare our troubles to their struggles. As such, they knew a thing or two about trusting God, of rationalizing pain into instrumental good. Do you know the shape of the Earth? Good for you, mate. But do you know how to live an actual good life? Don't fool yourself and don't waste my time.
@@matheusadornidardenne8684 ahh trying to justify that that the bible permits slavery, well done.....
so you believe magic is a real thing then?
The mic guy is like my grandma when I say “I’m full” 🥺😭💕
Thank you Dr Turek . you are very apreciated. You have helped me alot to understand some very important concepts.
Wow the guy with the microphone needs to hand the mic to the questioner. 😎😵
What a VERY opened minded atheist. I hope he gets saved.
It’s so rare to see such a calm interaction
I love young men like this. He’s thinking about the big questions and is willing to discuss.
I like the attitude of the asker. He was there for answers and willing to understand it. This was a nice conversation. May God bless all of them.
Very good. I appreciate guys like Frank T. out there mixing up where it can really make a difference.
Such a lesson in respectful, thoughtful , knowledge able and faithful approach to difficult questioning from audience. Love Dr Turek’s calm approach and so blessed to see and hear his explanations👏👏🙏🙏
God bless this young man! He was humble!
I cannot for the life of me think of which verse he is talking about where Jesus says it is great that slaves are tortured. Can anyone point me to chapter & verse?
Perhaps he was referring to Luke 12:48?
@@sandyo1063 I guess that was it. Really grasping at straws there.
Bruce Wayne I agree. Clearly Jesus is letting us know that those who had never known about Jesus will be given a lesser judgment which is merciful, just like Jesus is. Those who deliberately reject him will have to pay for their own sins and try to save themselves by keeping the laws perfectly. Which is impossible.
@@sandyo1063 🤦🤣🤦🤣🤦 and the tooth fairy Is legit huh?
There is no such verse -- Kyle was just lying, as believers in atheist Dogma always do.
Honest guy, I hope he will end up finding Jesus!
This was good! Among the best I've seen in these talks here.
I knew there were going to be jokes about the living microphone stand. Thank you Dr Turek for caring enough about us to help us understand. GBY (God Bless You) & Aloha
It's funny how when you hear truth you get it right away, but some you can argue with for hours and they won't get a simple explanation.
Maybe that is because what you think is truth actually makes no sense at all to the other person.
..."THEY"want ta Believe,
In SOMETHING....ANYTHING....
just NOT God..
@@priestmorrison6564 its easy to believe in someone not there then look for a thing there.
As a Muslim I learnt so much from you sir. Thank you very much.
Who else is distracted by the man putting the mic so close to the other man's mouth? Hahaha
hey friend, go read this comment section, it's full of these lol mic-eating posts. God bless
Now that was a honest question from man who wants to just understand & find the truth. .... I appreciate that he was honest & when he got a good well thought out answer to his question that he was satisfied with the answer from a logical perspective he said " ok & yes if love to read ur book " instead of arguing. So refreshing to see
He’s a good man. He’ll live a wonderful and prosperous life.
This is great but I'm distracted and tickled by the man holding the mic to the young man's mouth. Lol. He looks like he's about to make him eat it. Lol. Yikes! 😆
I'm distracted by Frank not addressing his claim.
🤣
This is my 2nd comment. This may be the best video so far that I've really watched. Such a peaceful exchange of ideas and he don't dismiss Theism but asks politely that maybe there is no God but as he hears and realizes the points he even said "you have a good point". This really touched me.
@wandering_aboutsure. What communication medium would you want? Email?
@wandering_about okay. I am a roman catholic christian. Ask away.
@wandering_about ow 100% for me.
I have to give props to the mic man as well, he does that job so brilliantly, even when Kyle moved his head around, plus he remains relatively unnoticed throughout the whole thing..
I like that guy! He's a very humble atheist! He may not be one for very long and he'll be a GREAT addition to the family...
Hopefully he will _not_ get indoctrinated.
Currently he is a self thinking person, he should stay that way.
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists"
True!
THANK YOU!!
No. Even if something doesn't exist, some people will believe in it and some will not. Vaccines don't cause autism yet there are anti-vaccers and, I guess, vaccers. There are people that believe something imaginary and also people that don't believe the same imaginary thing
@@alexismandelias and yet here you are, it's more a disbelief than non existence.. you are trying to debate in that which you do not even believe exists in the first place... more power to ya... I'm not trying to change anyone... it's just a quote from 100 years ago that still baffles the atheist... if, to you God is true, would you believe in Him? (I can answer that for you, it's no, you still would not believe)... nice try though, I've heard it all over the past 30 years and its the same response, just worded differently... perhaps you didn't know that man has been trying to "debunk" scripture for 2000 years & yet have nothing new to bring to the table... besides, its imaginary to you, yet, here you are...rather proving the quote, scripture & historical facts... I dont see atheist get upset with a Buddhism or Hinduism, even Islam.... it's always disbelief in God that sets off the atheist, so thank you for proving the point... & btw, you can believe whatever you want, I'm not trying to change you or anyone... if you want to believe everything came from nothing, then the burden of proof is on you, because you have to completely ignore historical facts, thus the choice to not believe in God.
Did everything change or "morph" at the exact moment in time, why are there no records of a man witnessing a tadpole change into a human? Your reply is "because it takes millions of years" , & still I say, then everything changed at one time or there would be documentation of a man that saw something change into a completely different species with completely different DNA , cells , atoms, molecules, blood... why does man not have both gills & lungs, seeing the earth is 2/3 water, if evolution is true, it's based in survival of the fittest.. yet man isn't fit if he can't both swim & breathe under water & on land as well...not to mention your moral compass, why is rape or murder a bad thing?? Who said it was bad... you claim the bible was written by man thus is fallible yet you believe in the "theory" of evolution, which is just an "educated guess" which is written by man also... one has to be right & seeing how nothing can produce something, I'm with God & intelligent design... which it doesn't take a genius to just look at earth from space or the universe, or down to the plants, grass & animals to know that something made such organized beings & vegetation.. I can keep going but will fall on deaf ears, besides, as I said, I just made a comment, & not trying to change anyone...
@@alexismandelias in the late 1800' / early 1900's , a scientist named Herbert Spencer came up with the categories of the 5 knowables, time , force , action , space & matter & the scientific community praised him with this... I guess he didn't read the first verse in scripture, written 4000 yrs before he was even born ; Genesis 1:1 "in the BEGINNING (time) , GOD (force) , CREATED (action) , the HEAVENS (space) and the EARTH (matter) ... the atheist has to steal from God to attempt to "prove" there is no God... rather hypocritical if ya ask me... but I'm just a christian simpleton so what do I know... i do know that after 30 plus years in being a child of God nothing has come close to disproving or debunking my belief in God...in fact it has strengthened me more... Blessings!
Much respect to the young man and I admire his search for and openness to truth - there’s a lot of us so-called Christians out there myself included who can be pretty rigid in our thinking and won’t even consider anything we hear that is outside of our understanding
The standard of rightness is human empathy. That exists with or without religion. We don't do things that will hurt someone because we know what it feels like to be hurt. We know that killing is wrong because we don't want to be killed ourselves and wouldn't want our loved ones to be killed. We don't steal because we know how it feels to be stolen from. Morality doesn't come from religion, it comes from basic human nature as a social species.
The guy holding the mic at the end when Frank asked the guy if he would read a book, needs them morality lesson-- wow he almost made the guy swallow the micro phone lol
Mad props to this atheist for admitting the point that Frank was trying to make , well spoken and no ad hominem attacks this made my day keep up the good work Frank and God bless
As a former atheist the moral argument is what really sealed the deal for me, and was the primary reason I started looking into theology and ultimately lead me into Christianity. Once I realized that I had no foundation for any type of moral value judgement on an atheistic/naturalistic worldview I started asking deeper questions.
@Sai The Christian God has the right to take and give life as he sees fight. God doesn't owe anyone a second more of life. It's absurd to compare a human-being taking a life and God taking one. We're not God; so the rules are different.
@Sai God and religion are two different things. You can believe in God & not have a specific religious discipline. Also, there's a delineation between polytheism and monotheism. Either you're misinformed or just have a personal problem with religion. At that point your argument becomes more emotional than intellectual.
@Sai Are you an atheist?
@Sai Okay...firstly, prior to your last comment you haven't asked any questions. All you've been doing is making incoherent statements, which again, seems like it's rooted more in emotion.
Secondly, monotheic religions assert that there's ONE God who is the highest source of morality, and that gives us a concise, clear understanding about the foundation of morality. God is an infinite being. There can't be two infinites because infinity means you aren't lacking anything. So, if there's 2 infinite Gods that would be an implicit contradiction because one would have to be lacking something the other hasn't. This is why monotheism makes more sense.
You must be joking? Morality varies by culture and is fully explained by evolution. Even social animals have developed a type of morality.
Excellent video as always.
Can an atheist act in moral and ethical ways? Certainly, he can. All humans still retain the image of God upon them, even after the fall of Adam and Eve into sin. The image of God was effaced at the fall, but it was not erased, and so man still understands right and wrong no matter how many try to say otherwise. Even atheists react to this inherent knowledge of right and wrong, some even to the extent of living exemplary lives.
C.S. Lewis described this well. He noted that if a man sees another in danger, the first instinct is to rush to help (altruism). But a second internal voice intervenes and says, “No, don’t endanger yourself,” which is in keeping with self-preservation. But then a third internal voice says, “No, you ought to help.” Where does that third voice come from, asks Lewis? This is what is referred to as the “ought-ness” of life. Morality is what people do, but ethics describe what people ought to do. And yes, people know what they ought to do, but that doesn’t mean that they always act according to that knowledge.
The difference between the atheist and the Christian in this sense is that the atheist may act ethically for certain reasons (e.g., not wanting to go to jail, it disrupts social order, it makes them look good to others, etc.), but he has no ultimate reason for acting ethically because there is no ultimate moral authority that exists over each sphere of his life. Without this ultimate authority, each atheist defines morality on his own terms, although his morality is influenced by the remnants of morality from the image of God within, along with the strictures and constraints of the culture and society in which the atheist exists.
The Christian, on the other hand, acts morally out of the knowledge of the moral law given by God in His Word and a love for the Law-giver Himself. In addition, that knowledge is continually increased and personalized by the indwelling Spirit of God, whose task it is to bring the Christian “into all truth” (John 16:13). From within believers, He directs, guides, comforts, and influences us, as well as producing in us the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). To the atheist who is without the Spirit, God’s truth is “foolishness,” because it is “spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14), and the only fruit of righteousness is self-righteousness, not the righteousness of Christ.
When confronted with a situation that demands both the Christian and the atheist to make moral choices, a situation in which societal constraints are removed, the reaction of each will be vastly different. If a society deems it morally acceptable to kill unborn babies, for instance, the atheist sees no reason to oppose the practice. His own “moral law” even tells him it’s the compassionate thing to do in cases where the child is the result of rape or incest. The Christian, however, knows abortion is wrong because his moral choices are built upon the moral Law-giver who has declared all human life to be sacred because it is created in the image of God. The Law-giver has proclaimed, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13) and, for the Christian, there’s the end of it.
So can an atheist act ethically? Certainly, but he has no ultimate reason to do so and no ultimate authority to look to in order to ensure his line is indeed straight and unbendable.
I remember when i thought this way. God bless is all
You converted? And if so why was your reason? Im christian but just curious.
@@jikalope230 why are you christian? why do you think irrationally? just curious.
Tom Bombadil why are you so antagonistic? What did God or @jikalope do to you?
You were defrauded
I like this guy, reasonable, honest, and humble. May he find The Truth.
wandering_about I believe that Jesus Christ is the express image of God, the God of forever that created the universe and time itself
wandering_about 100 my friend. I have encountered Him in my dreams. And He was prophesied several times nearly hundreds of years before He came. He changed world history and it is 2020...2020 after His life, death, and resurrection.
wandering_about yes sir
I don't understand what passage is he talking about in the beginning. Can someone please help me? Thank you
The dude with the mic had me laughing to hard to actually pay attention to anything else.
need a laugh, my friend? go read this comment section now, it's stacked w these eat-a-mic comments rotfl..... God bless
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this: There is no moral absolute. As everything we know, we were taught. We have been taught how to perceive things such as color, beauty, and morality. Take into consideration this advice: If a girl/boy is mean to you then that means she/he likes you. This is true and false, but cannot be proven to be absolutely true or false. I'm sure, not certain, that there have been cases where this ideology prevailed and others were a girl/boy was just mean. Before you ask "where does his mean manners come from?" let me continue. It is itself as much a contradiction as it's philosophy. The notion that people doing bad things to you because they like you seems absurd. However, we teach our kids this idea, among other things, that they will believe for an amount of time, brief or long lasting. And since we are older, wiser, and can take away their toys, they listen to us. Through fear or love, our children will believe what we tell them, but usually not forever. So why do they keep our passed down sense of morality unhinged? Well, they don't. An average person's sense of morality is, what I understand to be most accurate, passed onto them most likely from the moral conception of their guardian in which way they received theirs. As a person from the south, I can personally testify that racism and prejudice exist and no one is that shy about it (I'm not stating it only exists here in the south). When I was younger, I perceived people of a different race to be dangerous as I was taught. These ideas no longer resonate with me because I have independently developed my morality, and those ideas have been cast away. Now, independently doing this I had to acknowledge other viewpoints and I chose for myself, and I am still choosing, what best assists me, the people around, humanity as a whole, and nature. My morality is evolving. And I think morality has evolved. I speculate that from early on, civilizations, through trial and error, was constantly developing a system in which life flourished. The actions that were harmful, or had the least success in increasing life and eventually the well-being of others, were cast away- deemed immoral (i.e. killing each other, raping babies, etc). As we evolved so did our morality and almost vice versa. We became intelligent and could then take a more in depth look into our morality. That is why there has been a lot of moral contradiction throughout the span of our existence as well as religions. The more advanced an abstract concept became, the more room for debate. Even now morality is evolving. We have moral debates over a number of things. It is presumably safe to say, however, that without secular involvement, morality in religion would have stayed the same as the lesser morality of those that conceived it. It is no lie that in any religion, a moral adversary arises and we try to justify what could have been meant. In Islam, killing your daughter if she is raped is completely justifiable under the moral landscape of that religion. Christianity allows the stoning of adulterers. Yet, modern religious people (not extremists) do none of these things. Not because God has told them not to, because it is clear within the books that it is okay then, but because humans increased their intelligence through secular movements therefore evolving their sense of morality to cast aside the harmful virtues we see from then. If a god has a set standard and it was okay to do what we deem as terrible now back then, how come we deem it terrible now? If anything, we achieve a higher standard of morality, a concept that is evolving to us, without a god than with one.
+Heath Jackson The true bible if written by Jesus Himself wouldn't say to literally "stone adulterers". Everything in the bible is an attempt to portray how Jesus lived and what he MIGHT have said. Therefore the bible MUST be read in context otherwise it looses meaning and verses can be cherry picked to portray a negative outlook.The bible is a biography of Jesus NOT an autobiography and we as believers of Jesus attempt to portray his life and what he said through words but many times fail to do so. So if Christianity seems contradictory that is human fault and in no way represents Jesus/God.
The book analogy was just wow!
What passage is he talking about? I've never seen a passage where Yeshua says it's good they're tormenting a slave. Does anyone know which book, chapter and verse bes talking about?
Holds the mic...... *cmon just the tip*
This was 5 years ago. I would not be surprised if today he is spreading the gospel. You can tell a seed was planted in his heart when he said "That's a good point". I hope he finds Jesus.
He earned a lot of respect by admitting he didn't know
I know I’m a little bit late to ask this question maybe but can someone tell me in which book and what chapter does Jesus talk about the slaves like the guy said?
Thanks
I ordered the book he gives out and it's suppose to come today!! I'm so excited! All these people receiving this book for free, and he makes it sound like they're doing him the favor when it's the other way around! Is that not gracious? 😊
Holy Spirit thank You for softening our hearts when we truly seek Truth!
It is amazing how moral an objective untruths have been ingrained into culture and how it has been accepted as true and intellectual, but really not questioned because it appears to be rebellion against religion.
One of the better discourses on the moral argument that I have heard. Also, it's nice to see an atheist seeking after God. You can see it in that he is not puffed up at all. Considering the age of this video, I wonder where he is at now.
I can respect this atheist's ability to admit good counter perspectives and admit that Trek had good points. A response to rungavagairun: The opinion of the creator is indeed more important than one of a man because the morality of its creation is of correspondence based off of the creator. Natural moral laws are firmly established in most societies, of which a large majority of those who differentiate from those have been raised against those moral laws. Yahweh killed more people than Hitler? While this may or not be true, I find the fact that this fact was only due to the ungodly, the ones who deliberately violated his moral laws and would cause more harm to each other than God did. However, I am going to try to decrease my ignorance and agree that it is an interesting topic and I do see where your argument lies on a theological standard.
epicmredd hmmm I don’t think the concern lies solely in the death count between hitler and god, lets be honest with ourselves. Genocide, instructed by both god and hitler, doesn’t choose ungodly people. Babies, children and animals were slaughtered and drowned in the flood. To what grounds are they being rendered ungodly?
Most arguments from here appeal to the utilitarian format with the doctrine of double effect that wiping out the amalekite race completely will envelope a better future. Are Christians that desperate to defend their beliefs that they would posit a moral justification in genocide because god instructed it? But if it was hitler, it’s wrong... why????
The second appeal raises a meta ethical standard that god gives and takes away. Humans don’t have a right to life to criticise or measure the morality of genocide. Again it’s double standards to say it’s okay if god does it but bad if hitler does it. There’s no difference between a Jew baby, and an amalekite baby. And for these reasons I reject the notion of god and his morality, being far inferior to that of ours.
Lord, bless Frank and give me the wisdom and patience that you have given him and thank You for him. Amen!!! Also, God save this young man!
What is the verse Kyle the atheist was referencing? Never heard it before I must know!
ikr!! I have never heard that either. Based on what he said he read it BUT didn't understand it.
Nice to finally see an atheist that can have an actual discussion rather than wasting time with "you're an atheist too" and sky daddy quotes.
Theistic morality isn't a stronger position than this guy's. If everything is reduced to the opinion of a god, it's not different than if it's one person's opinion. He's just a powerful individual. Hitler had power and he killed millions of people. Yahweh is said to have killed just as many or maybe more people. Why is it ok for Yahweh and not Hitler?
Watch the video again. And again. And then do it again. Keep doing it until you actually understand what he's saying.
Alex S I'm pretty sure I understand. I disagree with the premise that having a god as the foundation of morality is a solution to the problem of moral relativism. All it does is put the subjective authority in the hand of the being who happens to be the most powerful. For the same reason that we have for being skeptical of kings (or presidents, etc) having better insight into morality, we can be skeptical of Yahweh's moral compass... especially when we read the Bible and see that his prophets endorse slavery, the death penalty for picking up sticks, and sassy children.
I'm not a moral relativist. I do not share the views of the young atheist. My point was only that his position, though bad, is no worse than the position espoused by Turek.
rungavagairun The problem you have is you are classifying God as a subjective authority when He is an objective authority. This is the point of the entire argument. God is not influenced by (subject to) anything outside of Himself, nor is morality simply His opinion which implies it can be changed. The very nature of God is goodness and all objective moral standards derive from this unchanging nature.
*****
There are places that disagree with you to an extent.
Some places in colder climes it is illegal to shut off power during the winter even when the power bill hasn't been paid for a while. You can sue them, but you can't just arbitrarily cut the power.
A similar ethical consideration would arise if we ever create artificial life. Just because _we_ made it, does that give their creators the right to destroy it if they wish? There seems to be a point at which we say 'no'. Shooting a dog just 'cause ya feel like it is, in many place, illegal, even if it's _your_ dog. Destroying a genuine artificial life form with the same ability to reason and experience would likely be the same. Just because you make something doesn't give you the right to destroy it based purely on your creation or ownership of the thing created.
***** Why does creating something give you the right to kill it? Imagine that I created a conscious robot. It can think and feel and reason. It has a desire to live and make other robots that are similar to itself. Do you think I have the right to just destroy this robot? I would argue that I have a responsibility to protect it, and if it is doing things that are bad, I have a responsibility to help it to make better decisions and/or reprogram it.
At the very least, I owe it the dignity to communicate directly with it and, if I determine that it is beyond hope for rehabilitation, I can terminate it in a way that does not cause it to suffer. Yahweh apparently hates the majority of the people he created and he's supposedly going to torture us for all of eternity. That's not a moral plan. It's something a monster would do.
He's a good kid just has juvenile ideas that need maturing.
what verse was that guy talking about at the start of the video? about jesus condoning slavery?
I worked in a Forensic Mental Hospital for 3 1/2 years. 400+ patients there to be deemed competent to stand trial for Murder, Rape, Child Molestation, and many other horrific crimes. "horrific" by Society's Standard, which were set to a great extent by
Christian Values. If the patients were allowed to set the standards, based on their individual opinions, Murder, Rape, Child Molestation and many other horrific things would be "Normal" and totally "Acceptable". The "Standard" MUST come from a place that is ABOVE Human Nature. Human Nature, left to itself, is the reason we have Forensic Mental Hospitals.
@wandering_about What do you mean?
Where did Jesus say that I've studied the bible never found that in there anywhere. LOL
say what?
@Bill Wakefield What are you guys referring to?
The only thing I can find that he might be alluding to is Mark chapter 12 and Luke chapter 12 /chapter 20..... But these are parables... I would like to have heard a little bit of what he thought he heard/read lol
@@IZCSRI A thanks for that that is a really bad twisting of what Jesus is saying, I then would reply where did he say it a good thing, if he thought or said (which he didn't) it was a good thing that they had to be punished why did he weep or die for the sin of the world. What he said doesnt make any sense at all.
Perhaps he was referring to Luke 12:48????
"That's a Very Good Point"😂😂😂, At least he Admits He Can't Agrue it, Respect Atheist Broski💪
Hello, I’m wondering when he says book, which book is he referring to? Is it a book that he wrote?
I hope everyone can be like that guy, debating but not getting offended as a way of defending their views.
This was brilliant. I fear that any listener to this will also have to be brilliant in order to grasp what he said.
It just a matter of time, we need to pray for him so God can have mercy on him, in the name of Jesus this man will be saved.
Amen
Pray for the kids that are being raped by their priests. If prayers really worked, that wouldn't happen to them, and we wouldn't need hospitals, because prayers would heal everyone. Prayer only makes you feel like you did something helpful, when you really did nothing at all !
David Jones you don’t understand prayers at all
So god needs you're help to do right. The bible has stories that makes Stalin look better than you're god. Stop holding human to a higher standard than god. Stalin never claim ability/power to do anything
@@maul5578 Prayers is human wasting time. If god knows everything and has set plans, it does not need your interventions. Come on, does he need you to tell or ask him what to do? Maybe he needs a course in ethics
HUGE respect for that young man
What passages of the Bible is he referring to? I would like to know where Jesus said that about slaves.
He didn't. Not in those words.
If morality is objective, then why do people have different morals?
Because having different morals does not negate the notion that there is a single absolute objective morality out there that we should follow. People just have different opinions about it and sometimes choose to go against it.
@@patrickmartin3463 If people, whether consciously or subconsciously, choose to go against this objective morality, then that would mean that they would be aware of this objective morality in the first place. I doubt that some Muslims in Islamic countries think the second-class treatment of women is wrong. I doubt that some people think racism or segregation is wrong. I doubt that some pro-choice supporters think their opinion is wrong. I think that all these things would be considered as violations according to this objective morality, but there are people who don't think what they're doing is wrong which is why I believe an objective morality doesn't exist.
@greg heffley I totally agree with part of what you said about the fact that there are some people who believe things to be “good” that we would recognize as absolutely bad. But that’s where the problem of subjectivity is.
Objective morality exists independent of human mind and constructs. If I thought the sun was blue, then even if I firmly believe i’m absolutely right, you wouldn’t say “oh that’s fine, there’s no absolute reality anyways” right? You’d think... oh even if he believes the sun is blue, he’s really not conforming to the reality displayed in front of him.
Same thing with morality. Anyone can believe that killing is a good thing. But it doesn’t make it an objective fact just because one decides that it is good.
Thought experiment:
If Hitler thought he was absolutely right to do what he did in the past, then how can you step in and condemn him for the wrongs he did if he’s simply living by his own subjective moral standards?
If there are no objective moral standards out there to distinguish right from wrong, how can we solve the moral issue?
and to your last point, if someone has lived under a rock all his life and claims that the sun is blue, would you think there is no sun?
@@patrickmartin3463 I disagree. I think morality is subjective because I believe it is based off what we feel. For example, if I stole some item, I would feel guilt because I knew what I did was wrong. But someone else can steal the exact same thing and not feel any guilt because he/she believes what he/she did was not wrong. We can see this over the course of history: a changing subjective morality. If someone thought the sun was blue, they would be wrong because the sun is white. Colors are objective, not subjective. It is like math where 1=1. As for Hitler, I condemn him for the wrongs he did because they contradict my subjective moral standards. Other people condemn Hitler because his crimes contradict their moral standards. Some people support Hitler because his crimes do not contradict their moral standards. It is all based off what we feel. We can never solve our moral issue as long as there is a difference of opinion. It is only when one opinion prevails that we can somewhat solve our moral issue. For instance, once upon a time in the US, slavery was legal until people who thought it was immoral won a war and created an amendment making it illegal.
I think Frank Turek is going off a couple of assumptions and managed to successfully avoid giving the student a straight answer.
a well practiced con man will do that.
The Question was taken out of context. Many people take God out of context because they never read the Bible and understood it themselves. They just repeat what they have heard or seen.
@@smolaoye anyone who reads the bible will see all its problems.
Good dialogue back and forth:)
What book are you giving him? I would like to check it out myself
So basically your projective point was that, if there is no god we all of the sudden lose our moral compass. Speak for your self...frank is it? I use to go to church when I had no choice. And I remember the routine. Listen to a few lines from the bible that highlighted the sermon of the day. All the while I'm reading the bible running into examples like this atheist gentleman presented. Punctuated by the occasional reminder that I will burn in eternal fire if I do half of what god does whole sale in the bible. Wasn't a pleasant experience as a child. I think history shows that when one allows them selves to become dependent on another's idea of morality, be it a dictator, president, and especially god and those who "represent" him on earth. Committing horrible acts goes from being obviously pure evil to being ones duty or faith. In contrast I have seen far more Good things done for the sake of Humanity then in the name of god. Let me tell you what I believe, though I am not quite sure what designation I would receive. I believe in Good. And I believe those who believe in evil deserve a whack on the back of the neck with a big f*cking stick. I don't need a god to tell me this. And I don't need you to tell me I need a god to tell me this. I believe that is the point this gentleman was trying to make frank.
+Mikey MGTOW We know what the point was the atheist was trying to make. He also took a verse of the Bible out of context so he could use it to his advantage.
The problem is, how can you call something crooked unless you know that which is straight.
In the same way, how can you call something wrong unless you know that which is right?
If *we* decide what is good or bad then you can't say what Hitler did was wrong because in his mind it was good. You could say that you believe what Hitler did was wrong but you have to admit you could be wrong about that. You *cannot* say, "what Hitler did is absolutely wrong!". The only way you could say what he did was absolutely wrong is if you adhere to a standard of right and wrong which is above both of you.
Just to make it clear: making up your own idea of right and wrong doesn't make you any more right than Hitler.
Well I was not talking about the point of the video. I was pontificating on the fact that people do not need an outside source of morality to have and understand it. Which is a point I think the atheist was trying to make when he wasn't being told he is incapable of being good without god or someone else to tell us to be. I would also like to see the citation to the "93% of all wars" statistic you use. It sounds like you pulled it out of your arse.
Well you and I seem to have watched differing videos. And why am I not shocked that when I ask for a citation to the source for your exact percentage on war and you say "I gave you the reference, just google it." and then tell me to take huffington posts word for it. You do realize main stream media is bias as hell right?! Suggestion for future debates you may have. Don't toss out bullshit like facts with no citations to back it up and expect anyone to take you seriously.
Mikey MGTOW Mainstream media does not have a bias towards Christianity. They are against it. That is why it's credible. Otherwise go look at the encyclopedia yourself and prove me otherwise. You don't have to take just Huffington Post's word for it. Ask anyone who has looked at the Encyclopedia of Wars. or, as I said, google it because every link shows the same thing. It's very basic research. You're spouting blind claims with nothing to back you up but you, meanwhile the facts are in front of you but you don't want to hear it. That's called blind faith.
LOL "That is why it's credible." It is never credible lol, just please stop trying to convince me of that. Waste of time. "You're spouting blind claims with nothing to back you up" I have maid no claims other then people don't need someone to tell them to be good to be good, also that religion and government are used as shields against accountability when committing immoral acts. I never said religion is the reason for most of or all wars. I just asked for a citation to back up your exact number of wars that was not religion caused because it sounded like bullshit. Turns out it was, just you pulling some percentage out of your ass to sound like you know EXACTLY what your talking about. W/E people do that, I'm not going to dwell on it. But don't sit here and try to tell me what points I am trying to make or put words in my mouth like some libtard chump. I know what I said and what I did not say and you are just starting to pull more bullshit out of your ass.
So let's do what we want. You got a deal.
Now watch this earth become hell.. Congratulations
Yep, that roughly sketches what religion suggests:
We do what we want and if others don't comply then kill them.
@@nupsi6 It depends on which religion, as Islam and Catholicism (incorrectly associated with Christianity) both make claims that either the prophets or religious leaders have the authority to change their religion's rules.
Christians understand that Christianity really isn't religion.
It's a relationship with God and a way of life.
@@Keesha_Hardy Funny to see that all religious believers always claim that only they know what is right and that all others are wrong.
Are you aware that Catholics disagree with you? Who are you to say that you are right and they are wrong? Why do you claim that? Because according to _your subjective interpretation of your own religious believes_ ? That is not really a good standpoint, don't you agree?
I have heard this annoying claim so many times now:
I am better than all other believers, my personal believes are true, I am better than all those "normal" believers still caught inside "normal" religion.
That is so childish.
It is the general idea behind religious believes that is the issue. Whether you call the religion is not the matter. And what doctrine or system or denomination you submit your self too is just a small detail. No one is interested in that.
@@nupsi6 Funny to see that you don't even realize that there can _only_ be *one* truth, _and_ that atheism is a self-defeating worldview (if you're not an atheist, my points about atheism aren't directed at you, I'm just using them for my overall point).
If every religion (including atheistic evolution, secular humanism, nihilism, and other atheistic beliefs that people incorrectly claim aren't religions or beliefs) believe that they are right and true, we _know_ for a fact that they cannot all be true at the same time.
*That means us humans have to do the work to find out the truth for ourselves, including questioning our current beliefs.*
Ironically, atheists claim to question everything _except_ the claim of there being no god. They make the claim that atheism is simply the forgone conclusion _because_ every religion (except atheism, because again, they incorrectly claim that it's not a belief) makes the claim that they are the truth. They never seek the truth about atheism, they just cling to it blindly, making up all kinds of lies to justify even having an atheistic worldview. It's almost as if they are afraid that they will find out that their worldview is a lie and they just don't want to accept what that means.
Meanwhile, many Christians, including myself, _have_ questioned Christianity, which is the reason why they know that Christianity (the truth found in the Holy Bible, so Catholicism, Mormonism, and other heretical teachings claiming to be "Christian" are excluded) _is_ the only *true* belief.
So, your claim, that I'm just assuming that my beliefs are right, _is_ false. I don't have to know everything that there is to know what _is_ right and true.
I know gravity exists. I know that 1 + 1 = 2. Those two things are not all that there is to know, yet you and me both know that they are right and true.
In conclusion, you want me to claim that my pursuit in seeking and accepting truth are invalid, just tell me that I _should_ accept your idea of what is right and true, in terms of religion or philosophical belief. Also, you assume that I believe I am better than other believers, as if I made up my own beliefs. I believe what the Creator of the universe, God, has created. Anything belief outside of what God has created _is_ wrong and a lie, as those beliefs are not what our universe is actually dependent on.
Until you actually do your homework on Catholicism, or any other belief for that matter, you can't tell me that I don't know the truth about what the right and true belief is.
The Creator of the universe, God, has already revealed the truth to me, and no human being is God, so I'm not gonna be seeking myself, you, or other humans for what is ultimately right and true.
I'm seeking God.
@@Keesha_Hardy Absolutely impressive.
The way you prove everything that is wrong with believers to be absolutely true.
Congratulations.
(oh, and psssst, but by the way: you wrote an impressive nonsense. Which you will never understand, as caught in the trap of religion as you are)
Have a great time! ;-)
Without God, torturing slaves could not be objectively wrong.
What’s the book you keep offering? I want it. Now.
This us what I’m curious about too. Anyone know?