If you engage in espionage against the nation of which you are a citizen, no matter your justifications or rationalizations, you know you risk being executed. If you are aware that your spouse is engaging in espionage against the nation of which you are a citizen, and you take no action to immediately separate yourself from your spouse and inform the authorities of what you have learned, then you are an accessory to the crime and are guilty. Sympathy for the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg is loathsome. Anyone angry that Ethel suffered the same fate as her husband should hold Julius Rosenberg, David Greenglass, and Ruth Greenglass absolutely responsible, apart from Ethel herself. She was aware that Julius engaged in espionage and understood that such knowledge threatened her with sharing his fate if caught. If these same individuals had committed the same acts but for the benefit of a different nation and ideology, would the same people have the same degree of sympathy and made the same arguments in their defense? If not, then their sympathy and arguments are in part or whole ideologically driven and must be disregarded to an equal degree.
the sobering thought that there has only been one nation, one mindset, that ever allowed the extinction of over 100,000 innocents...through the dropping of two Atomic bombs.....that nation being the United States of America....is worth remembering... The USSR, through it's development of this diabolical weapon became the balance....insuring that the Bomb would never be used again...Bravo Observer Jules
Jules, your characterization of the use of nuclear weapons by the US at the end of WW2 is at best misleading and deceptive. The motivations and reasoning of the Allied commanders, President Truman, and the U.S. supreme command in particular, for the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were numerous and complex. The same can be said for the reasons why we have been fortunate enough not to have had nuclear weapons used in war since 1945. If you are interested in the events and actions of the final months of WW2 in the Pacific theater, then you must read what is now considered the seminal work on the topic, ‘Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire’ by Richard Frank. If you do, you will understand why your characterization is at best a distortion of the facts.
Good points, to be sure....yet the real danger of Atomic Warfare is something the USA continues to struggle with....careless intent and dialogue from the likes of Gen. MacArthur, Senator Barry Goldwater, Senator Ted Cruz and now Presidential Candidate Donald Trump perpetuate the idea that America can solve problems through the use of it's diabolical weaponry. Sadly this rhetoric is seen by many members of the voting citizenry as not only viable, but actually a preferred way forward. America, born in war continues it's love affair of war. Such the pity! respectfully, Observer Jules
How use ful the bomb information was isn't that important as far as guilt is concerned. The Rosenberg's didn't have to know how useful the information was. Their actions and intent are what mattered. They certainly weren't trying to provide the soviets with disinformation.
Tag, you're it, you ignominious person. Clearly you have no understanding or depth of compassion to what was happening at that time, presently and throughout history. And you never will
Funny these guys make a case against the judge because of his association with Hoover, but hey the Rosenbergs' associations are off limits. By the way, my mother grew up on the Lower East Side, in the 30s and 40s along with 4 siblings. Each led productive lives, loved America and gloried in capitalism.
@RetroTVManiac Sorry sir. History pretty clearly records that the goal of the Communist Party, here and abroad, was not to ameliorate the lives of anyone other than their leadership. Stalin "ameliorated" the lives of 20,000,000 dead Ukranians, Poles, Jews, Belorussians and others by killing them. This was the man the Rosenbergs followed. The disease of Communism spread to Cuba and it brought about great good - to the leadership with the fancy houses and fancy cars. It bought repression, torture and poverty to the population at large.
You're focusing on whether Julius loved America and gloried in capitalism. A better focus would be on the fact that the West was unwilling to give full assistance to the Soviets in their fight against the Nazis. Julius (recruited in 1942, three years before the war ended, with the Soviet Union on "our side") wanted "our side" to win.
@@kurtvonfricken6829 Patten and people in the state department thought different things: Patten thought the US should take Berlin and then keep going and knacker Stalin's Russia, the state department mostly wanted to restrict the goal to a fight against Hitler. But neither Patten nor the State Department were blind to Stalin's character. They didn't see him as a good guy and the fundamental hope was that Hitler would fatally wound Stalin's regime and vice versa. My guess is that in Julius's mind, just as in George Blake's mind, the danger was that a unipolar world would emerge, with the US able to dominate all the much more minor powers. Could be wrong, of course.
The venona decryptions were not used at trial but had they been they wouldve shown Ethels involvement . The punishment was unjust but her guilt was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. The punishment was severe in part because they were involved not just in passing atomic secrets but also the proximity fuse.
@@jasonwiley798 bureau actually didn't want the death penalty they thought they might reveal more but Cohn and j Kaufmann did . And others went unpunished travesty of justice. Created martyrs of the couriers while the intelligentsia hall and fuchs went unpunished or got a slap on wrist by comparison see bureau agent Lamphere book
This was not a debate. Stacking the deck when better informed experts are available insures it is not definitive. Bad job, Spy Museum. Misleading your audience and presenting an argument that was Soviet propaganda since the 50s is a lousy idea.
This is a dubious historical presentation, at least in it's premise. If we wanted to get an objective historical perspective of some other nefarious figure - say, Charlie Manson - would we go to the SON of Charlie Manson to get an unbiased account? Of course not. There's too much emotional attachment there. That doesn't mean there can't be truth within Meeropol's account, but it's obvious that he speaks of the subject matter quite passionately rather than dispassionately. That's all you could expect. He even admits that many of his early efforts at the Rosenberg case scholarship were aimed at vindication rather than truth. The basic truth is that the "Rosenbergs are innocent!" meme of the 1950's was, by and large, a conspiracy theory from the left that was eventually discredited. It's probable that Ethel Rosenberg didn't deserve the death penalty, but that's along way from innocence, with regards to espionage. And it's a much smaller story than, "the Rosenbergs are innocent!" There is much fault on the part of the legal system as far as Ethel Rosenberg's sentence goes, but, in my view, that pales in comparison to moral failings of her own husband her own brother, who gambled her life away and sacrificed her to either save themselves or play games with the prosecutors.
Yes,it's strange that the siblings of any notorious figures NEVER say 'you know,he/she/they were actually WORSE and more evil than portrayed',the law of averages would confirm this,the above 'debate' is tantamount to arguing about how much Al Capone owed the IRS, in other words irrelevant.
They had a fair trial and a fair punishment for their treason! Many more like them are getting away with much more and should also be tried and punished!
Listen and learn before lambasting others with your bias. This is no longer McCarthy USA. You sound as level-headed as America's last president who, incidentally, was chums with one of the Rosenberg's prosecutors, the charming (to the ultra-right), actually loathsome Roy Cohn.
As a beginning physics student at the time of the Rosenberg case, I thought the sketch that Julius Rosenberg was accused of transmitting to the USSR of very little value. Years later, after I had earned a PhD in physics, I thought the sketch of even less significance. My parents were Jewish, and I was sensitive to the fact that the accused couple's being Jews was an embarrassment to other Jews. Remember, it was WW2 that made being Jewish more acceptable in the still racist United States! For many years, I contributed to children's a children's charity sponsored by the Miropol brothers and felt a connection to them. I read a book, years ago, called "Rush to Judgment" that gave me a good understanding of the Rosenberg case and the way my government conducts political persecutions. I was fully prepared for the trial of Bradley Manning and the treatment later of Chelsea Manning. The persecution, today, of Julian Assange is another example of my government's nature. Nothing the United States does in its war mongering foreign policy surprises me.
Alvin - ok - lets ask the south koreans if their happy with their status- how about the tawainese - the estonians - the latvians The Lithuanians-the poles - the czechs - the bulgarians - the greeks - the romanians - & on & on - without the USA Europe would cease to exist - Japan - Ausrtalia likewise - ask these countries if they think the USA should stop being a war mongerer as you state - we have done some awful awful things - inexcusable to many- but we have likewise Done some noble & special things as well - we have helped maintain democracy - as trite as it may sound -we are All the free world has until something better comes along- oh yes i forgot the ingrates. - the Israelis -/ We are flawed & imperfect - -
@@konstantinoskatsounis2320 Konstantino - The South Koreans I should be asking are the survivors and their offspring of the 1949-53 war. Millions perished. I can't ask them. The Iranians and Guatemalens who were victims of the dictatorships that Pres Eisenhower installed are not available either. I shall not list more, because you acknowledge "some awful things" we have done. Our excuse has always been to bring democracy to others. As we have pursued our bloody means, we have lost democracy in the US; now an imperial oligarchy seeking to enforce our "rules based order" on the entire world. A familiar phrase to me, because I remember the Third Reich and "die Neue Ordnung" (the New Order) it tried to impose when I was a child. Just as today, that order had no foundation in international law. Today, we have an order, a legal order to which we agreed by treaty, the UN Charter. The US violated it on every continent and today in Ukraine, where the US overthrew the legal government in 2014 and with NATO threatened Russia's western gate, the one used by the NAZIs in in June, 1940 ("Barbarossa"). The US is not by any stretch a democracy. Its leaders do not care for the well being of the American people. We have the most corrupt government that has ever existed on this earth.
@@alvin8391 ok we will play ur game - can we ask the 15,000 polish intellectuals & officers shot at Katyn - or the Upwards of 3 million Ukranians starved to death during theMoscow induced famine that led to the Holodomar or the 10,O00:hungarian freedom Fighters & intellectuals who vanished in 1956 can we ask Imre Nagy or Thomas Masaryk - I know all about Ikes crimes & the Dulles- 1953 Iran - but we Greeks were saved by the Marshall plan or we would be speaking Russian today in Athens 20O00 greek cnildren kidnapped by the defeated communist partisans taken to soviet bloc countries to be raised as good socialists - Hey Alvin sound familiar ? I know the USA controls aLatvia - Lithuania -Estonia - the Nordic countries -The Balkans - the Pacific Rim In fact the USA is the true evil Empire - yes lets go back to the great patriotic war of 1941 to justify Russias aggression - when in fact they had been invading countries since 1920 -ukraine - azerbaijan Dasgestan - & would have also had Poland if it wasnt for Pilsudski guys kicking their asses outside The gates of warsaw - if you want to learn about the benign misunderstood hard pressed. Russians Ask a pole in poland - look Bushes invasion ofIraq was the one of the greatest political & military blunder of All time - Bush Rummie -Cheney -Wolfowitz -the scooter - libby that is are all war criminals -Blair as well But Alvin tell me why everyone wants to come to the land of the gun & the con ?? Iwas in Granada -Nicaraguan In 1983 with Boyers people -in Beirut in 84 - in Timeasora Xmas 90 - when Hule was killed - Two winters In Sarajevo 93 -95 I was 200 yards away when the shell exploded in the Markala marketnat 1230 0n feb 5 I am sure you think that Milosovic was a great statesman - Karadavic a political genius - & Ratko Mladic Rightnup there with Rommel as amilitary genius -Arkin a misunderstood freedom fighter -In every Conflict zone i was in even in Kosovo in 99 All i heard was Where is @America - can they help us - We need the USA - why are we letting this happen - how can we emigrate there -we are waiting & praying For the americans to help us -to end this -not once did i hear anyone say where are the Russians - Carla Del Ponte told us at the Hague at the ICCFY - you americans have caused so much damage & pain in the world - yet we wouldnt be here without your actions even though you dont recognize This court -So Alvin your vitriol Toxic views are typical of the cerebral arm chair hoiierthan thou Intellectual - look it gives you a purpose - is this is a complex malevolent country -yes it is -has it done heinous Things again yes - but the big but is that the USA tries to atone for it -In the middle of the horrible Heartrending Iraqi invasion Bush initiated the highly successful PEPFAR program in Africa - D
We will never really know whether we executed two relatively innocent people of espionage. Some got away with it but the U.S. needed a scapegoat. Sound familiar?
The “connection” of some Jews to Communism has always been controversial. Jews have themselves been kicked out of many countries they tried to live in. So perhaps it is not surprising that they would “identify” and try to help out fellow “sufferers.” The Jewish “love affair” with Communism has always been naive and inaccurate. The Rosenbergs had no idea of the summery executions, arrests, Gulags and mass starvations of Stalinist Russia. But even if you tried to tell them, they would likely believe you were just “lying” to them. Communism was their religion. The Rosenbergs believed Communism was essential to “protect the rights of workers against the “evils” of capitalism. They considered it worth trading their lives for this. They didn’t understand issues of “nuclear proliferation” and the terrible fears of Stalin getting nuclear weapons. Remember, even now many university professors still believe in Communism, but they never teach their students about the “body counts” of Communism. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
The Rosenberg children were students at my Manhattan progressive school when their parents were executed and the alumni and the teachers who were former students and now PhDs and getting older were STILL shaken - they were willing to believe that Julius may have been and MOST LIKELY WAS, but questioned whether or not the legal burden of proof, in his case, and the sentence of death, in light of much legal precedent, appears to have been "selective prosecution" of some kind either as a tool to get whatever testimony the prosecution wanted from the other 3 who were charged in that immediate, cohabiting family group guilty. Or was it a sadly and ironically, and an all too frequently case of the antisemitism in many American social, educational, financial, and sporting institutions n the immediate postwar years What was STILL unforgivable literally 43 years later was that the boys lost BOTH parents when they did NOT have adequate evidence to KILL their mother Ethel let alone CONVICT her BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. It's one of the few cases in US history where even my friends and family who are rational and empirical and SO NOT INTO conspiracy theories DO TRULY feel like the American people have NOT been given the full story; they have never seen all of the information. The other main US historical event where we're not into INSANE theories but feel like Americans don't have the full picture or the CORRECT picture would be the JFK assassination and 2 deaths, one of which is an ACKNOWLEDGED murder, where the deceased were very entangled with the Kennedy brothers or actively and publicly investigating the JFK assassination... Marilyn Monroe and Dorothy Kilgallen.
It s a shame that to supposedly defend liberty a Pack of lies that ended in execution of two harmless citizens. And this execution destroyed also a Family and the lives of two childeren. Interrogation under torture of Any kind cannot be used as evidency
What a remarkable comments section. Minds so closed to anything "communistic" that they closely resemble communist minds. With a little reeducation, you'd all have made very good Soviet citizens.
I believe it is very sad that the point is to prove that they did not do it. Sharing atomic secrets with the Soviets might have saved the world from a US attack against USSR. After all, the balance between the super powers was the way. I could add that if I thought that my country has killed my innocent parents, I would move away, I could not live there.
If both countries have the same weapon there will exist a mutual assurance which can prevent a destruction, saving the world.The Rosenberg case proved Capitalism's fear about Communism revolutionary Soviate which can remove Capitalism from the world building a better world.Klaus Fuchs also played role heroically in the great job.I salute him
@@pritichakraborty4687 Possession of nukes did not prevent war, in fact. It prevented nuclear war, but not conventional war. You are wrong about the Rosenberg case proving communism can build a better world. .Soviet records cited in "The Black Book of Communism" show this ideology murdered 100 million people in less than 75 years. That is more deaths than those in every war in recorded history. Communism is the greatest crime to strike this planet. Communism failed because it could not provide goods and services to the people. Communism denied essential freedoms that permit people from enjoying life. Millions of people voted on communism with their feet and fled the hell it created. There were no such movements of people clamoring to get on the eastern side of the Iron Curtain. Communist countries always needed extensive espionage operations to steal Western technology because innovation, research and development is always stifled under communist regimes. One is free to say such things in the West. Say them with communists in charge and the result will be a bullet in the back of the head or decades in the gulag archipelago.
Let's no forget that Robert Oppenheimer eventually lost his security clearance because he advocated a cooperative effort with the USSR on the use nuclear energy.
Oppenheimer was stripped because Edward Teller (felt threatened by him) shafted him and told the committee what they wanted to hear. Oppenheimer told them the truth. He said the hydrogen bomb should never be built.
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I have no idea what these other commenters heard bc there was plenty of debate and I found this to be very informative. I am not familiar with the case and found myself getting lost or confused in some of the discord. I’m also curious about these comments about Jewish People??? Like there is a lot of that in the comments but I can’t draw a correlation between the video and the comments
David Greenglass threw his sister Ethel and Julius under the bus to save his guilty carcass.
Julius was the one that told Greenglass he was working on the A Bomb.. He was dragged in by Julius and his sister
If you engage in espionage against the nation of which you are a citizen, no matter your justifications or rationalizations, you know you risk being executed. If you are aware that your spouse is engaging in espionage against the nation of which you are a citizen, and you take no action to immediately separate yourself from your spouse and inform the authorities of what you have learned, then you are an accessory to the crime and are guilty.
Sympathy for the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg is loathsome. Anyone angry that Ethel suffered the same fate as her husband should hold Julius Rosenberg, David Greenglass, and Ruth Greenglass absolutely responsible, apart from Ethel herself. She was aware that Julius engaged in espionage and understood that such knowledge threatened her with sharing his fate if caught.
If these same individuals had committed the same acts but for the benefit of a different nation and ideology, would the same people have the same degree of sympathy and made the same arguments in their defense? If not, then their sympathy and arguments are in part or whole ideologically driven and must be disregarded to an equal degree.
the sobering thought that there has only been one nation, one mindset, that ever allowed the extinction of over 100,000 innocents...through the dropping of two Atomic bombs.....that nation being the United States of America....is worth remembering...
The USSR, through it's development of this diabolical weapon became the balance....insuring that the Bomb would never be used again...Bravo
Observer Jules
Jules, your characterization of the use of nuclear weapons by the US at the end of WW2 is at best misleading and deceptive. The motivations and reasoning of the Allied commanders, President Truman, and the U.S. supreme command in particular, for the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were numerous and complex. The same can be said for the reasons why we have been fortunate enough not to have had nuclear weapons used in war since 1945. If you are interested in the events and actions of the final months of WW2 in the Pacific theater, then you must read what is now considered the seminal work on the topic, ‘Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire’ by Richard Frank. If you do, you will understand why your characterization is at best a distortion of the facts.
Good points, to be sure....yet the real danger of Atomic Warfare is something the USA continues to struggle with....careless intent and dialogue from the likes of Gen. MacArthur, Senator Barry Goldwater, Senator Ted Cruz and now Presidential Candidate Donald Trump perpetuate the idea that America can solve problems through the use of it's diabolical weaponry.
Sadly this rhetoric is seen by many members of the voting citizenry as not only viable, but actually a preferred way forward.
America, born in war continues it's love affair of war.
Such the pity!
respectfully, Observer Jules
they deserved death
The charge against the Rosenbergs was not espionage.
How use ful the bomb information was isn't that important as far as guilt is concerned. The Rosenberg's didn't have to know how useful the information was. Their actions and intent are what mattered. They certainly weren't trying to provide the soviets with disinformation.
They were not the ones who shared the information. Study this case little deeper. Her brother and his wife were.
Where is the debate? You have the Meerpol brothers and Houghton who might as well be a third Meerpol. This is ridiculous.
frackious You're right it seems that they are all are in agreement. No debate what so ever.
Are you a moron ?
@@deborahmargarettunney224 No. You are.
Tag, you're it, you ignominious person. Clearly you have no understanding or depth of compassion to what was happening at that time, presently and throughout history. And you never will
@@deborahmargarettunney224 You're a jerk.
This video sucks and in no way proves anything. The Definitive Debate is the title but where is the debate?
Funny these guys make a case against the judge because of his association with Hoover, but hey the Rosenbergs' associations are off limits. By the way, my mother grew up on the Lower East Side, in the 30s and 40s along with 4 siblings. Each led productive lives, loved America and gloried in capitalism.
@RetroTVManiac Sorry sir. History pretty clearly records that the goal of the Communist Party, here and abroad, was not to ameliorate the lives of anyone other than their leadership. Stalin "ameliorated" the lives of 20,000,000 dead Ukranians, Poles, Jews, Belorussians and others by killing them. This was the man the Rosenbergs followed. The disease of Communism spread to Cuba and it brought about great good - to the leadership with the fancy houses and fancy cars. It bought repression, torture and poverty to the population at large.
You're focusing on whether Julius loved America and gloried in capitalism. A better focus would be on the fact that the West was unwilling to give full assistance to the Soviets in their fight against the Nazis. Julius (recruited in 1942, three years before the war ended, with the Soviet Union on "our side") wanted "our side" to win.
@@oliverc1961
What? The US gave the Soviets tons of aid to defeat the Nazis, who they once allied with. That’s a really poor excuse for espionage.
@@kurtvonfricken6829 Patten and people in the state department thought different things: Patten thought the US should take Berlin and then keep going and knacker Stalin's Russia, the state department mostly wanted to restrict the goal to a fight against Hitler. But neither Patten nor the State Department were blind to Stalin's character. They didn't see him as a good guy and the fundamental hope was that Hitler would fatally wound Stalin's regime and vice versa. My guess is that in Julius's mind, just as in George Blake's mind, the danger was that a unipolar world would emerge, with the US able to dominate all the much more minor powers. Could be wrong, of course.
@The Vision Splendid at the expense of those who were leading good lives.
U call this a debate
At minute 18 the statement “Ethel called the governments bluff”. Nope, they called her bluff and executed her.😜
U are wrong. Educate yourself before u talk.
The venona decryptions were not used at trial but had they been they wouldve shown Ethels involvement . The punishment was unjust but her guilt was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. The punishment was severe in part because they were involved not just in passing atomic secrets but also the proximity fuse.
And because it was the cold war. The walker family did much more harm to our national security, yet they were not executed.
@@jasonwiley798 bureau actually didn't want the death penalty they thought they might reveal more but Cohn and j Kaufmann did . And others went unpunished travesty of justice. Created martyrs of the couriers while the intelligentsia hall and fuchs went unpunished or got a slap on wrist by comparison see bureau agent Lamphere book
@@jasonwiley798 that depends on whomever you talk to . That's the hype with every new mouse spy from Snowden back to koval fuchs rosenbergs . Et.al.
@@terencewinters2154 the espionage saved the Russians maybe a year. It's physics an md they had some pretty smart physicists too
@@jasonwiley798 you mean the ones working in new mexico lol.
This was not a debate.
Stacking the deck when better informed experts are available insures it is not definitive.
Bad job, Spy Museum.
Misleading your audience and presenting an argument that was Soviet propaganda since the 50s is a lousy idea.
2 terrorists = electic chair. RIP
Terrorists!? What terrorists? Is it just a buzzword for you? Anyone not on 'your team ' = terrorists?
This is a dubious historical presentation, at least in it's premise. If we wanted to get an objective historical perspective of some other nefarious figure - say, Charlie Manson - would we go to the SON of Charlie Manson to get an unbiased account? Of course not. There's too much emotional attachment there. That doesn't mean there can't be truth within Meeropol's account, but it's obvious that he speaks of the subject matter quite passionately rather than dispassionately. That's all you could expect. He even admits that many of his early efforts at the Rosenberg case scholarship were aimed at vindication rather than truth.
The basic truth is that the "Rosenbergs are innocent!" meme of the 1950's was, by and large, a conspiracy theory from the left that was eventually discredited. It's probable that Ethel Rosenberg didn't deserve the death penalty, but that's along way from innocence, with regards to espionage. And it's a much smaller story than, "the Rosenbergs are innocent!" There is much fault on the part of the legal system as far as Ethel Rosenberg's sentence goes, but, in my view, that pales in comparison to moral failings of her own husband her own brother, who gambled her life away and sacrificed her to either save themselves or play games with the prosecutors.
Yes,it's strange that the siblings of any notorious figures NEVER say 'you know,he/she/they were actually WORSE and more evil than portrayed',the law of averages would confirm this,the above 'debate' is tantamount to arguing about how much Al Capone owed the IRS, in other words irrelevant.
Thanks for sharing this I really enjoyed it
I'd just like to know who funds this crap?
Private donations?
@@seaneastman8817 The ADL?
They had a fair trial and a fair punishment for their treason! Many more like them are getting away with much more and should also be tried and punished!
Listen and learn before lambasting others with your bias. This is no longer McCarthy USA. You sound as level-headed as America's last president who, incidentally, was chums with one of the Rosenberg's prosecutors, the charming (to the ultra-right), actually loathsome Roy Cohn.
What about the fair trials in the Soviet union.
There ain't no sanity clause.
As a beginning physics student at the time of the Rosenberg case, I thought the sketch that Julius Rosenberg was accused of transmitting to the USSR of very little value. Years later, after I had earned a PhD in physics, I thought the sketch of even less significance.
My parents were Jewish, and I was sensitive to the fact that the accused couple's being Jews was an embarrassment to other Jews. Remember, it was WW2 that made being Jewish more acceptable in the still racist United States! For many years, I contributed to children's a children's charity sponsored by the Miropol brothers and felt a connection to them. I read a book, years ago, called "Rush to Judgment" that gave me a good understanding of the Rosenberg case and the way my government conducts political persecutions. I was fully prepared for the trial of Bradley Manning and the treatment later of Chelsea Manning. The persecution, today, of Julian Assange is another example of my government's nature. Nothing the United States does in its war mongering foreign policy surprises me.
Alvin - ok - lets ask the south koreans if their happy with their status- how about the tawainese - the estonians - the latvians
The Lithuanians-the poles - the czechs - the bulgarians - the greeks - the romanians - & on & on - without the USA
Europe would cease to exist - Japan - Ausrtalia likewise - ask these countries if they think the USA should stop being
a war mongerer as you state - we have done some awful awful things - inexcusable to many- but we have likewise
Done some noble & special things as well - we have helped maintain democracy - as trite as it may sound -we are
All the free world has until something better comes along- oh yes i forgot the ingrates. - the Israelis -/
We are flawed & imperfect -
-
@@konstantinoskatsounis2320 Konstantino - The South Koreans I should be asking are the survivors and their offspring of the 1949-53 war. Millions perished. I can't ask them. The Iranians and Guatemalens who were victims of the dictatorships that Pres Eisenhower installed are not available either. I shall not list more, because you acknowledge "some awful things" we have done. Our excuse has always been to bring democracy to others. As we have pursued our bloody means, we have lost democracy in the US; now an imperial oligarchy seeking to enforce our "rules based order" on the entire world. A familiar phrase to me, because I remember the Third Reich and "die Neue Ordnung" (the New Order) it tried to impose when I was a child. Just as today, that order had no foundation in international law. Today, we have an order, a legal order to which we agreed by treaty, the UN Charter. The US violated it on every continent and today in Ukraine, where the US overthrew the legal government in 2014 and with NATO threatened Russia's western gate, the one used by the NAZIs in in June, 1940 ("Barbarossa").
The US is not by any stretch a democracy. Its leaders do not care for the well being of the American people. We have the most corrupt government that has ever existed on this earth.
@@alvin8391 ok we will play ur game - can we ask the 15,000 polish intellectuals & officers shot at Katyn - or the
Upwards of 3 million Ukranians starved to death during theMoscow induced famine that led to the Holodomar or the 10,O00:hungarian freedom
Fighters & intellectuals who vanished in 1956 can we ask Imre Nagy or Thomas Masaryk - I know all about
Ikes crimes & the Dulles- 1953 Iran - but we Greeks were saved by the Marshall plan or we would be speaking
Russian today in Athens 20O00 greek cnildren kidnapped by the defeated
communist partisans taken to soviet bloc countries to be raised as good socialists - Hey Alvin sound familiar ?
I know the USA controls aLatvia - Lithuania -Estonia - the Nordic countries -The Balkans - the Pacific Rim
In fact the USA is the true evil Empire - yes lets go back to the great patriotic war of 1941 to justify
Russias aggression - when in fact they had been invading countries since 1920 -ukraine - azerbaijan
Dasgestan - & would have also had Poland if it wasnt for Pilsudski guys kicking their asses outside
The gates of warsaw - if you want to learn about the benign misunderstood hard pressed. Russians
Ask a pole in poland - look Bushes invasion ofIraq was the one of the greatest political & military blunder of
All time - Bush Rummie -Cheney -Wolfowitz -the scooter - libby that is are all war criminals -Blair as well
But Alvin tell me why everyone wants to come to the land of the gun & the con ?? Iwas in Granada -Nicaraguan
In 1983 with Boyers people -in Beirut in 84 - in Timeasora Xmas 90 - when Hule was killed - Two winters
In Sarajevo 93 -95 I was 200 yards away when the shell exploded in the Markala marketnat 1230 0n feb 5
I am sure you think that Milosovic was a great statesman - Karadavic a political genius - & Ratko Mladic
Rightnup there with Rommel as amilitary genius -Arkin a misunderstood freedom fighter -In every
Conflict zone i was in even in Kosovo in 99 All i heard was Where is @America - can they help us -
We need the USA - why are we letting this happen - how can we emigrate there -we are waiting & praying
For the americans to help us -to end this -not once did i hear anyone say where are the Russians -
Carla Del Ponte told us at the Hague at the ICCFY - you americans have caused so much damage &
pain in the world - yet we wouldnt be here without your actions even though you dont recognize
This court -So Alvin your vitriol Toxic views are typical of the cerebral arm chair hoiierthan thou
Intellectual - look it gives you a purpose - is this is a complex malevolent country -yes it is -has it done heinous
Things again yes - but the big but is that the USA tries to atone for it -In the middle of the horrible
Heartrending Iraqi invasion Bush initiated the highly successful PEPFAR program in Africa -
D
Ethel never had a cover name for 1 and venona clarified this
And that is why Israel has nuclear weapon.
Check out Gideon's Spies. It's more complicated than that.
The pictures are interesting but not connected to what is actually being talked about. :)
We will never really know whether we executed two relatively innocent people of espionage. Some got away with it but the U.S. needed a scapegoat. Sound familiar?
The “connection” of some Jews to Communism has always been controversial. Jews have themselves been kicked out of many countries they tried to live in. So perhaps it is not surprising that they would “identify” and try to help out fellow “sufferers.”
The Jewish “love affair” with Communism has always been naive and inaccurate. The Rosenbergs had no idea of the summery executions, arrests, Gulags and mass starvations of Stalinist Russia.
But even if you tried to tell them, they would likely believe you were just “lying” to them. Communism was their religion. The Rosenbergs believed Communism was essential to “protect the rights of workers against the “evils” of capitalism.
They considered it worth trading their lives for this. They didn’t understand issues of “nuclear proliferation” and the terrible fears of Stalin getting nuclear weapons.
Remember, even now many university professors still believe in Communism, but they never teach their students about the “body counts” of Communism.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
The Rosenberg children were students at my Manhattan progressive school when their parents were executed and the alumni and the teachers who were former students and now PhDs and getting older were STILL shaken - they were willing to believe that Julius may have been and MOST LIKELY WAS, but questioned whether or not the legal burden of proof, in his case, and the sentence of death, in light of much legal precedent, appears to have been "selective prosecution" of some kind either as a tool to get whatever testimony the prosecution wanted from the other 3 who were charged in that immediate, cohabiting family group guilty. Or was it a sadly and ironically, and an all too frequently case of the antisemitism in many American social, educational, financial, and sporting institutions n the immediate postwar years What was STILL unforgivable literally 43 years later was that the boys lost BOTH parents when they did NOT have adequate evidence to KILL their mother Ethel let alone CONVICT her BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
It's one of the few cases in US history where even my friends and family who are rational and empirical and SO NOT INTO conspiracy theories DO TRULY feel like the American people have NOT been given the full story; they have never seen all of the information. The other main US historical event where we're not into INSANE theories but feel like Americans don't have the full picture or the CORRECT picture would be the JFK assassination and 2 deaths, one of which is an ACKNOWLEDGED murder, where the deceased were very entangled with the Kennedy brothers or actively and publicly investigating the JFK assassination... Marilyn Monroe and Dorothy Kilgallen.
Wow how objective, how brave. I dont know if having a job with the Times was ever held in such low esteem.
It s a shame that to supposedly defend liberty a Pack of lies that ended in execution of two harmless citizens. And this execution destroyed also a Family and the lives of two childeren. Interrogation under torture of Any kind cannot be used as evidency
Looks like the right people got fried for the right reasons.
This is weird.
My cat was also implicated in this
washing one's laundry POST FACTUM
I think that Ethel shouldn't not have been executed. Both the Rosenberg's pleaded the 5th when they were asked if they were Communists.
Why would they plead the 5th? Is being a Communist a criminal act?
What a remarkable comments section. Minds so closed to anything "communistic" that they closely resemble communist minds. With a little reeducation, you'd all have made very good Soviet citizens.
You're so smart and unique
um- minds SHOULD be closed to anything communist, you d bag.
What's remarkable is how many liberals want to believe anything that supports their contempt for the United States.
All god-damn jews.
If ur gonna comment. How about you make an argument instead of dropping just a straight up antisemetic statement.
I believe it is very sad that the point is to prove that they did not do it. Sharing atomic secrets with the Soviets might have saved the world from a US attack against USSR. After all, the balance between the super powers was the way. I could add that if I thought that my country has killed my innocent parents, I would move away, I could not live there.
If both countries have the same weapon there will exist a mutual assurance which can prevent a destruction, saving the world.The Rosenberg case proved Capitalism's fear about Communism revolutionary Soviate which can remove Capitalism from the world building a better world.Klaus Fuchs also played role heroically in the great job.I salute him
@@pritichakraborty4687 Possession of nukes did not prevent war, in fact. It prevented nuclear war, but not conventional war.
You are wrong about the Rosenberg case proving communism can build a better world.
.Soviet records cited in "The Black Book of Communism" show this ideology murdered 100 million people in less than 75 years. That is more deaths than those in every war in recorded history.
Communism is the greatest crime to strike this planet.
Communism failed because it could not provide goods and services to the people.
Communism denied essential freedoms that permit people from enjoying life.
Millions of people voted on communism with their feet and fled the hell it created.
There were no such movements of people clamoring to get on the eastern side of the Iron Curtain.
Communist countries always needed extensive espionage operations to steal Western technology because innovation, research and development is always stifled under communist regimes.
One is free to say such things in the West.
Say them with communists in charge and the result will be a bullet in the back of the head or decades in the gulag archipelago.
Didn't prevent the Cuban Missle Crisis.
Absolutely interesting ?
@ The Atom Spy Museum.
Let's no forget that Robert Oppenheimer eventually lost his security clearance because he advocated a cooperative effort with the USSR on the use nuclear energy.
I don't want to give a security clearance to a guy who wants to share nuke secrets with a hostile power, but that's just me being a kook.
Oppenheimer was stripped because Edward Teller (felt threatened by him) shafted him and told the committee what they wanted to hear. Oppenheimer told them the truth. He said the hydrogen bomb should never be built.
@@kdlofty
Nice in theory, then reality sets in.
Is that a Jewish name
❤
this guys intro is not professional he sounds like a refrigerator salesman.
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I have no idea what these other commenters heard bc there was plenty of debate and
I found this to be very informative. I am not familiar with the case and found myself getting lost or confused in some of the discord. I’m also curious about these comments about Jewish People??? Like there is a lot of that in the comments but I can’t draw a correlation between the video and the comments
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🌼🌼🌼🌼🌼🌼🌼🌻🌻🌈🍎🥦🥬👌
clowns.
11:19 - "I'm sure you're looking forward to another round of Clinton." Lmao....WRONG. Never happened.
Yeah, we got the orange ignoramus that embarrassed the country instead.
Trump was a million times worse.
One day we will have another spat of spies that came into service during Trump's administration. Great incompetence creates opportunities.