As I remember, the "edk" was so named because it would roll significantly lower than the breaking strength of the rope on slow pull tests, moreso than any actual deaths. I originally learned to rappel on the double fisherman bend, a super solid knot, but more prone to jamming or being hard to pull over an edge. Switched to the edk, but i do dress it carefully and leave long tails. Haven't died yet...
Just learned about the Gibbs a month ago and I love it. Benefits of OOB, but so darn stable, and possibly easier to untie. Also it’s a really good option for joining cord.
As always, Great Information. There are books out there on everything. But who has time to read them all. Your summation of the pertinent information really saves time an always one to spend the time on deliberate practice of what you are teaching. Thank you!
The alpine butterfly is also an interesting bend knot. It's an inline knot but with the two tail on one side, so it's less susceptible to stuck it. And it's pretty easy to untight it after loading. I didn't know the gibbs knot. Pretty interesting. Thanks.
The alpine butterfly bend is interesting, and strong. the downside is that it has loops around the bottom of both ends. It's not going to pull over an edge much easier than a double fishermans. Great knot for strength, and ease of tying, but most people don't know it as a bend, and can't easily check it. For me, it's less time wasted to tie something easy to inspect, than spend a bunch of time teaching knot class while the sun is setting on my rappel.
The zeppelin bend is another candidate, which has the advantage of at least one flat side, but the same big down side that it isn't well known, and wastes a lot of time teaching when you could be rappelling.
@@rohrertech8882 I love the zeppelin too. But for me it have another down side that is the opposite tails, making a cross that increase the chance to stuck the knot in a bush.
+1 for the Zeppelin! Another aspect of rappel knots is how easy it is to untie them and the Zellepin is exceptionally good there while others (double fisherman 👀) can be a nightmare. The Alpine Butterfly is also great and it's easy to tie in the middle of the rope as well. Used it a lot for tying in the middle guy when climbing with 3 people on a single rope.
Hi Mr. Searle. First, it is nice to see a channel by someone with some genuine savvy. It still gets lost, for many viewers I would guess, amoungst all the techno wizardry. But maybe I am not so right, and a little of that savvy comes through for most everyone. I was introduced to the "OOB" knot while taking the ACMG guides course, early 1980's. I have always thought it interesting. It is the only commonly used knot in mountaineering activities that loosens upon being weighted. People can choose to take a perspective with a different conclusion, but the actual fact is one half of the knot is loosened upon weighting, the other half blocks it from coming undone, and this is contrary to most everything else taught to climbing students. Obviously it does work, and kind of surprisingly it has proven, long ago, to be safe. I still find it incongruous. Do you happen to know Mark Houston and Kathy Cosely?
The open alpine Butterfly is also a option. But compared to the EDK its not recommended due to its fact thats its not so easy to tie and controll… But its advantage is thats its very eas to untie.
Awesome video. Always good to go over this stuff again and again. For rappelling through a larger rind with skinnier ropes where a OOB might be small enough to go through, what would you do? I have always approached it with adding a carabiner on the pull side so it can't slip through the ring but didn't know if you would change it to a gibson or just do a different, thicker knot instead of adding gear that could get stuck when pulling. Thanks!
Great video as usual Dave! I saw some guides in Chamonix using the offset figure 8 during a rappel off Breche Puiseux earlier this year, was quite surprised, but apparently they still teach this?
Hi mate, great content. I am from London and love skiing. I've improved a lot over the last 2-3 years but I am always renting the equipment. I am at a point where I am thinking of getting my own boots with custom insoles. Would you get them here in England or would you say I can get better value for money while in the Alps? I am off to Cervinia in November and Solden in January. Would appreciate your advice. Thanks!
I was taught a while back that when connecting ropes with fisherman's knots, that the x's must point the same direction so that the two knots "nest"...is this no longer considered best practice? At 21:13 it looks like your knots are pointing opposite directions.
Congratulations Master, excellent and useful explanations! A question, to join a 9mm diameter rope with a 5.5mm or 6mm rope for rappelling, would the GIBBS knot be the right knot, that is, would it block well? Would the 5.5mm or 6mm cord be well blocked and not come undone??? Thanks a lot for the answer, Best wishes. 💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Yes, the Gibbs knot is a "differently dressed" double barrel (if by double barrel you mean what I refer to as the DOB4). I can convert one to the other easily. The final knots are slightly different.
Alpine butterfly is really useful for setting up a fixed anchor/abseil line without needing any hardware. For example, when climbing on sea cliffs you can use an alpine butterfly loop around one anchor and fix the end around another (flemish bend), then the alpine butterfly is really easy to adjust to equalise the anchors.
You mentioned the flat figure 8 bend rolls at 0.6kn, is that strength if not properly dressed or dressed and stressed? I'm curious about the knot's strength in both cases
IIRC your flemish bend is dressed in the wrong orientation; It supposedly holds better, when each ropes figure eight is the one closest to the other ropes standing end. (stacked similarly to a fisherman's bend, if that makes more sense😅)
Great video, with clear takeaways. Ive always used stacked overhands myself but will definitely educate myself in the gibbs knot. A couple of questions: 1) You briefly mentioned joining ends of ropes to make anchors etc, would this change which knots you prefer? Especially if leaving in situ double fisherman's would seem like the more obvious choice but wondering if you have any thoughts? 2) Are there any other knots that you might use to join ropes in climbing for more niche applications? For example single/double alpines seem bulkier/slightly slower to tie for simple double strand rappels but with a double I gain other rigging options.
More useful info in the description!
Each time I am surprised by how thorough and comprehensive your videos are. Great content really
Thanks!
As I remember, the "edk" was so named because it would roll significantly lower than the breaking strength of the rope on slow pull tests, moreso than any actual deaths. I originally learned to rappel on the double fisherman bend, a super solid knot, but more prone to jamming or being hard to pull over an edge. Switched to the edk, but i do dress it carefully and leave long tails. Haven't died yet...
Just learned about the Gibbs a month ago and I love it. Benefits of OOB, but so darn stable, and possibly easier to untie. Also it’s a really good option for joining cord.
Great video, and very detailed explanation. I always learn something from your videos. Great stuff. ATB from Norway 🇳🇴
Great! Thank you
as per usual another superb video with tons of useful information. thanks a lot
Super informative!!! Keep them coming!
🙌
As always, Great Information. There are books out there on everything. But who has time to read them all. Your summation of the pertinent information really saves time an always one to spend the time on deliberate practice of what you are teaching. Thank you!
Awesome summary, thanks!
Just discussed this yesterday with my climbing partner while on route :).
🫡
Very good Video, thanks. I just read Down by Andy Kirkpatrick and can say its fun to read and has lots of useful information
The alpine butterfly is also an interesting bend knot.
It's an inline knot but with the two tail on one side, so it's less susceptible to stuck it. And it's pretty easy to untight it after loading.
I didn't know the gibbs knot. Pretty interesting. Thanks.
I need to experiment more with it.
The alpine butterfly bend is interesting, and strong. the downside is that it has loops around the bottom of both ends. It's not going to pull over an edge much easier than a double fishermans. Great knot for strength, and ease of tying, but most people don't know it as a bend, and can't easily check it. For me, it's less time wasted to tie something easy to inspect, than spend a bunch of time teaching knot class while the sun is setting on my rappel.
The zeppelin bend is another candidate, which has the advantage of at least one flat side, but the same big down side that it isn't well known, and wastes a lot of time teaching when you could be rappelling.
@@rohrertech8882 I love the zeppelin too. But for me it have another down side that is the opposite tails, making a cross that increase the chance to stuck the knot in a bush.
+1 for the Zeppelin! Another aspect of rappel knots is how easy it is to untie them and the Zellepin is exceptionally good there while others (double fisherman 👀) can be a nightmare. The Alpine Butterfly is also great and it's easy to tie in the middle of the rope as well. Used it a lot for tying in the middle guy when climbing with 3 people on a single rope.
super useful content!
Happy to hear that!
Nice video! Maybe a follow up showing people how to rap past the knot in a connected rope to keep this train of thought?
Yeah that’s a good one!
The Zeppelin knot is worth knowing. It's an inline knot that has less risk of jamming since the tails exit sideways.
Hi Mr. Searle. First, it is nice to see a channel by someone with some genuine savvy. It still gets lost, for many viewers I would guess, amoungst all the techno wizardry. But maybe I am not so right, and a little of that savvy comes through for most everyone.
I was introduced to the "OOB" knot while taking the ACMG guides course, early 1980's. I have always thought it interesting. It is the only commonly used knot in mountaineering activities that loosens upon being weighted. People can choose to take a perspective with a different conclusion, but the actual fact is one half of the knot is loosened upon weighting, the other half blocks it from coming undone, and this is contrary to most everything else taught to climbing students. Obviously it does work, and kind of surprisingly it has proven, long ago, to be safe. I still find it incongruous.
Do you happen to know Mark Houston and Kathy Cosely?
You’ve got such a nice map in the background! Would you share which one it is and where you got it from?
The open alpine Butterfly is also a option. But compared to the EDK its not recommended due to its fact thats its not so easy to tie and controll… But its advantage is thats its very eas to untie.
Great stuff. Thanks for the content.
Awesome video. Always good to go over this stuff again and again. For rappelling through a larger rind with skinnier ropes where a OOB might be small enough to go through, what would you do?
I have always approached it with adding a carabiner on the pull side so it can't slip through the ring but didn't know if you would change it to a gibson or just do a different, thicker knot instead of adding gear that could get stuck when pulling. Thanks!
Great video as usual Dave! I saw some guides in Chamonix using the offset figure 8 during a rappel off Breche Puiseux earlier this year, was quite surprised, but apparently they still teach this?
Yeah, older French guides probably?
That's really useful - many thanks!
You're welcome!
What about an offset double barrel knot? Would that be similar to the gibs knot?
Hi mate, great content. I am from London and love skiing. I've improved a lot over the last 2-3 years but I am always renting the equipment. I am at a point where I am thinking of getting my own boots with custom insoles. Would you get them here in England or would you say I can get better value for money while in the Alps? I am off to Cervinia in November and Solden in January. Would appreciate your advice. Thanks!
With the half Gibbs, i take it that the thinner line is the one that does the double turn?
I was taught a while back that when connecting ropes with fisherman's knots, that the x's must point the same direction so that the two knots "nest"...is this no longer considered best practice? At 21:13 it looks like your knots are pointing opposite directions.
Congratulations Master, excellent and useful explanations!
A question, to join a 9mm diameter rope with a 5.5mm or 6mm rope for rappelling, would the GIBBS knot be the right knot, that is, would it block well? Would the 5.5mm or 6mm cord be well blocked and not come undone???
Thanks a lot for the answer,
Best wishes.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Gibbs or Backed up offset overhand bend for the win!
Thanks 🙏🏻 thanks 🙏🏻
You’re welcome!
Very informative content, thanks!
Isn't the Gibbs knot equivalent to a "differently dressed" double barrel ?
They are actually very different despite looking quite close.
Yes, the Gibbs knot is a "differently dressed" double barrel (if by double barrel you mean what I refer to as the DOB4). I can convert one to the other easily. The final knots are slightly different.
@@AlanDunham-m8o yes you are correct and I was wrong here.
You forgot to mention the Alpine butterfly, stronger than an overhand, easier to untie and widely used.
I’ve personally never found the need for it but it is a good option for some situations as I understand. Perhaps I need to experiment more with it.
Alpine butterfly is really useful for setting up a fixed anchor/abseil line without needing any hardware. For example, when climbing on sea cliffs you can use an alpine butterfly loop around one anchor and fix the end around another (flemish bend), then the alpine butterfly is really easy to adjust to equalise the anchors.
@@DaveSearle pretty commonly used in rope access due to it's versatility and ease of use. Definitely a knot worth learning and using.
For the half Gibbs, would you recommend using the thinner or the thicker rope twice?
You mentioned the flat figure 8 bend rolls at 0.6kn, is that strength if not properly dressed or dressed and stressed? I'm curious about the knot's strength in both cases
Petzl has a good article on this which I linked in the description
@@DaveSearle thank you!!
What about Figure of Nine for joining ropes? Good or bad?
IIRC your flemish bend is dressed in the wrong orientation; It supposedly holds better, when each ropes figure eight is the one closest to the other ropes standing end. (stacked similarly to a fisherman's bend, if that makes more sense😅)
We could probably chalk that up to marginal gains that really aren’t worth worrying about. Wdyt?
The main reason for the european death knot is if the two ropes are different in diameter, than they roll much more and easier.
Great video, with clear takeaways. Ive always used stacked overhands myself but will definitely educate myself in the gibbs knot. A couple of questions:
1) You briefly mentioned joining ends of ropes to make anchors etc, would this change which knots you prefer? Especially if leaving in situ double fisherman's would seem like the more obvious choice but wondering if you have any thoughts?
2) Are there any other knots that you might use to join ropes in climbing for more niche applications? For example single/double alpines seem bulkier/slightly slower to tie for simple double strand rappels but with a double I gain other rigging options.
I use for a fair amount of years, the double EDK - or I heard that it might be called - barrel knot
Backed up offset overhand bend is the correct term.
I always do a triple fishermans
Might as well!
Don't forget alpine butterfly which is (stronger?) easier to untie when hauling a huuuuuuge load ;)
Use athletic tape to tape the tail on the double fisherman's and it will be way better
Not really very practical with wet ropes, cold hands and having gloves on.
Offset double fisherman's knot? Yes? No? (As you know, you tie the first one and then you tie the second one on the tail of the first one.)