Handguns in the US Army in World War Two
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Was the 1911 an emotional support totem or a viable combat weapon? Or both? American soldiers had a bit different take on handguns than soldiers of many other armies, and I think it stems from the American identity with the frontier - the Wild West was well within memory for many people when World War Two broke out. So today, let's look at the American take on handguns during that war...
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Your use of the phrase “personal protection totem” sums up the entire conversation extraordinarily well.
Yep. In no logical and statistical way will it help.
But, if I'm going to choose going in with only a rifle, or a pistol and rifle, then that pistol will be my bunkbuddy and cuddletoy all day long.
Just gives a sense of some calm, and that might just help the overall situation, even if in the end, the pistol hasn't shot a shot through the campaign.
Emotional Support Pistol.
It's not wrong. Kinda sums up pistols in general, though the M1911 fits that well.
@@mjfan653 Exactly. The pistol makes you feel just a little less naked and that arguably makes you a more effective soldier.
@itsapittie or it gives you too much confidence and you put yourself in unecessary harm's way
I love the phrase “emotional support weapon” 😂
The Wehrmacht in WWII were even more pistol-crazy than the US troopers if that's possible. The variety of handguns used by the Heer is amazing.
@@dbmail545 mostly because if you conquered entire europe, you literally could took everything that wasnt nailed down. Heer had everything from FN browning straight from captured FN factories to Nagant Revolver from death Commisar or something more rare like Norway 1911 (colt-konsberg 1914).
@@dbmail545 They were still limited to officers and a handful of NCOs. The average Jerry didn't even dream of getting a pistol.
This is what liberals don't understand
@@DawidKov Same as in US Army, the German machine gunners had pistols. Bit more difficult to find info about other specialists.
6:50 I felt that extra hard. so many times we got told by our officers "Naw, no shooting this month bc it costs too much/you might injure yourselves/we dont have time etc etc" and then they got butthurt that we sucked ass in basic riflemanship.
lmao
They were just too lazy to go through the process of getting the range, setting up the range and requesting ammo and vehicles.
@@cvr527 absolutely. And then they also wondered why the newly baked recruits from Basic training had more advanced skills and courses completed than us regulars who had been in a few years...
Yeah, I was in the reserves and for one weekend we had, "weapons familiarization training," there was no qualifying for anything but we got to put some rounds through a SAW, the M9 and a .50 cal. And when I say a few I mean it, we were supposed to have 15,000 rounds for the M2's but someone ordered....1500...for the whole company. So we literally got to fire about 10 rounds each, it literally took them longer to show us how to use it that it took to shoot. I don't think that was a money thing necessarily, but definitely sums up what it was like to be in the reserves, lol.
Re: trainig effectiveness in the Army, Delta Force founder Eric Haney complains that the Army, despite its motto "Train the way you want to fight" doesn't actually do that, which explains the large work up period before the troops actually deploy.
I'd argue that in WWII the 'old west' or 'frontier' was even more recent than Vietnam is today. Butch Cassidy's wild bunch was active until 1901. Indian wars and rebellions continued at least into the 1910's. That's more like the time between now and Gulf Storm.
Arguably the last stagecoach Robbery in 1916, or even the introduction of refrigeration in the 20’s was the Death of the frontier and old west. It’s pretty crazy when you think about it.
Not to mention the US’ involvement against Pancho Villa just before and at the start of WW1. It is really much closer to now and Gulf Storm like you said.
There were ads for the Thompson with straight up cowboys protecting their homes again indians in the early 20s.
Government officially "closed" the Frontier in 1890. But Arizona wasn't even a state at that point (1912). So it was more wishful thinking that reality at that point.
@@Theonederboy Not something we wanted to do but it did have the effect of giving men like George Patton their first taste of combat.
And not just generals. Future Admiral William "Ching" Lee was blooded in the occupation of Veracruz. When he was, of all things, a sniper.
This video is basicly the historic version of "your pistol is for getting to your rifle"
Unless you're like me, and live in a state where effective combat rifles are illegal.
@@NorthernNorthdude91749
The video is about use in war.
Paratroopers LOVED pistols, usually due to rough lessons learned on previous jumps. Famously, David Webster of Easy Company would purchase a 1911 after Normandy. He'd tried the leg bag and ended up losing it due to the rough jump so he had no weapons at all when he landed. After that, he kept a 1911 on a chest holster and a knife on his belt for every deployment after that to avoid that again.
When I first learned that German paratroopers were jumping in with nothing but pistols (maybe smgs for officers?) with their real weapons in separate containers, that blew my mind. And so many of them ended up being killed in all armies. It's no wonder that mass scale paratrooping like Crete and Arnhem quickly went out of style after Korea.
I just finished watching BoB yet again and after reading this comment realized that Webster is the only character shown carrying a 1911 in a tanker's rig. There are others shown handling 1911s but probably were using the standard flap belt holster. A handgun would be a poor weapon to have as your only weapon on a parachute drop but beats having nothing at all.
@@scottmccrea1873 The German RZ parachute harness was obsolete by WW2, but German paratroopers still used it because it was copied from the Italian Salvatore harness. Hitler wanted his paratroopers equipped the same as Italian paratroopers because Hitler wanted to become a fascist dictator like his hero Benito Mussillinni. The RZ harness was based upon a wide belt with perfunctory shoulder and leg straps. The risers were clipped to a pair of large D-rings on the sides of the belt and met at a swivel above the jumper's back. This solved one problem - line twists - but created another. The RZ suspended the jumper leaning forward at a 45 degree angle. This required a forward roll on landing, which increased injuries, so German paratroopers were issued specially padded boots, knee pads, elbow pads and padded gloves, most of which were discarded soon after landing.
@@robertwarner5963 @robertwarner5963 That sounds ridiculous. Why would they accept such a set up? It had to guarantee a significant number of injuries with every jump! Did such padding actually help?
Hitler wasn't a fascist. Redemptive antisemitism is what drove him.
After Crete, he banned anymore such operations because the casualties were so high. A rare example of Hitlerian good sense. The Allies would learn a similar lesson at Arnhem.
Paratroopers didn't really have much choice. 1911's were available to them and their weapons would usually be stowed differently. Meaning that if you come down under fire or get yourself stuck or separated from the rest of your kit somehow (paradrops have a tendency for things to go wrong) then the 1911 is really the only thing you're going to have to hand. And in a firefight in the dark in the hedgerows its definitely better than the alternative, that being nothing, they didn't really have a choice but to love it!
My father was on the US army pistol team. I still recall a story he told me of himself and a fellow soldier being on the range with their 1911s. One of their sergeants pulled up with an old non-military station wagon popped the back and revealed crates of 20-year-old 45 ACP packed full. He then proceeded to tell them to, "get rid of it." Both 1911s digested thousands of rounds of surplus ammo that day. Imagine two unsupervised soldiers given all that ammo. He said by the end of the day they were shooting upside down and under their legs and behind their backs and in every other conceivable way just to keep things interesting. It was something of an unofficial durability test for two pistols that had already seen excessive use and neither of them failed the session.
Hope they cleaned the guns properly. That old ammo was probably corrosively primed.
While that sounds like a lot of fun and im jealous your story is a sobering analogy for the flagrant misuse of tax payer dollars by our government.
@@dbmail545 Depends when it was. If this was the 80s, 20 year old ammo would be non corrosive. If it was 70s, it could have been. 60s it most likely was corrosive
I agree it was wasteful. The thinking at the time was that the ammo was too old and could not be trusted. I never asked my father how many duds there were but I expect there had to be some.
@@sakamoto2467 Less of a waste than you'd think, it showed that the military was sufficiently powerful to deter an enemy starting a war where the ammunition would otherwise have been used. And that would have cost even more money in the end.
My grand father was in the 45th ID in Korea, having previously been in Tunisia in WW2. I have a photo of him with not one but TWO 1911’s holstered. He said rifles would freeze pretty quickly if not taken care of, but due to the very well protected flap holsters your sidearm was almost always good for at least one mag. He said empty chamber full mag, because you can draw and rack a 1911 with thick gloves on, but couldn’t always get the safety off with them on. So he had 14 round of self protection ready to go.
Thunderbirds nice.
@@Autobotmatt428Grandpa was 45th in WW2 as well
the empty chamber thing was a military brass decision, even though their original design requirements specified the pistol be brought into service with only one hand. there is zero real reason to carry with an empty chamber. even the thumb safety was the military's idea. JMB's original designs didn't include a thumb safety (look at the 1909). he intended it to be carried with one in the chamber, no thumb safety, nor the later series 80 drop safety.
also, I think your grand father is maybe not remembering entirely correctly. the flap holster was probably great in Tunisia, but it didn't keep the gun oil from freezing and locking up a 1911 in a NK winter.
@@Chemically_InducedHe did mention the reason being the fact you could draw and rack a slide with heavy gloves but not actuate the safety.
Had an uncle WW 2 and Korea...Wounded ..Never stopped smiling the whole time I knew him. Never talked about his experiences. Was a good man.
As you said in the beginning the 1911 is only a pistol and was intended as a close-quarters weapon. That is why few military or law enforcement agencies train on targets more than 25 meters/yards away today. You can hit a target at 50 or even 100 yards with practice. But you need a lot of practice.
My dad fought in France during WW2. He found the 1911 very useful in the hedgerows. But he said he crawled up close to the side or behind the enemy and shot them in the head. The 1911 also saved his life. He used it as a pillow in his right hand as he slept.
My dad was assigned a new man and placed in a forward hole to watch and listen for enemy movement. My dad had been part of an advance and had not slept in two days, so he told the new guy to stand watch for four hours and he would take over. A large German snuck up on their hole and stabbed his green recruit in the eye because he fell asleep while standing watch. The German was about to bayonet my dad but my dad heard the sound of the bayonet being pulled out and smelt fresh blood. My dad woke up and shot the German 7 times. Then the whole line opened up and my dad said his hole was in the middle so he just kept his head down until it was over. Then he discovered the new guy was somehow still alive.
My dad also carried a captured German Luger in the small of his back.
When he was wounded in April of 1945 the medics who stripped him of his weapons could not believe how many weapons he had hidden on him!
If I may ask you...
What is the point of going on the internet & making up a story like this?
Like what do you personally get out of this?
Its not a story about you, & its arguably not about your dad either.....
You have an anonymous account so nobody will associate it with you or your father....
So why make up such a story.
My Grandad was a paratrooper in WWII. He was so proud of the fact that they were issued 1911s. My mom sent me pictures of him from training and while in France 1944 and sure enough his 45 is by his side in most of them. He's 99 now, blind and mostly def but is still the toughest SOB you'll ever meet.
Absolutely correct about the lack of former handgun training. I was issued a WWII-era 'A1 to go with my M60 back in the day. I was taught to care for and assemble-reassemble, but NO training on how to shoot the dern thing. I had to rely on my prior marksmanship
training supplied by my Dad when I was a kid, and that was solely on police revolvers, not the same thing at all. Having said all that, I considered it very cool that I was issued a handgun :) Good video Sir.
Are you a Vietnam vet? The M60 suggests you are.
I think it's bizarre that the Army would issue weapons and then not train you on how to use it. It's a level of stupid one hopes the _military_ would be above.
Did you find that switching to your sidearm is always faster than reloading, and did you get any kills with it?
I was in the US Navy from 1985 to 1995 . I was issued a 1911 as Petty Officer of the Watch on two warships and as the Dispatcher of an MP unit in Yokosuka Japan . My regular job was Operations Specialist ( radarman) . We were required to qualify every six months on the 1911 , the M14 , and the M870 shotgun . I earned shooting ribbons for rifle and pistol , and was qualified for the M60 . When I ESOSed the navy the 1911 was the fleet standard service pistol and the M14 was the fleet standard service rifle . The 1911 is not a handgun for beginners or casual shooters . John Moses Browning designed it as a weapon of war , not a badge of rank or a totem of confidence .
Its my emotional support pistol! Having worked at a public range...the average gun owner absolutely struggles to make effective hits beyond 10 yards, and has at best a 50% hit rate on a full size silhouette at 25. Now, the very rare *shooter*, especially with modern postols and optics, can absolutely be effective out to 50, but the number *owners* who think they are *shooters* is disheartening to say the least.
And even then. Yes, I can hit my 12" steel target from 60' with any zeroed pistol and decent ammo. But I need to be *very* deliberate about it, and even then I get 9 out of 10. With an AK or AR, the same target can be hit as quickly as I can bring up the rifle and pull the trigger, and it's so easy it's boring. It's an enormous difference.
But, the rifles are in the safe.
This makes me feel good about my hits at 15 yards. But I agree at 25 yards with a pistol and irons you have to practice consistently to be able to do that but that is easier said than done once you start looking how much it costs to practice to reach that level of proficiency.
Every time I hit the range I have to reacclimate to a handgun. I just can't keep the muscle memory like I do with a rifle.
Optics aren't necessary, in my experience. I've shot tons with my handguns and noticed no change in my pattern. I guess some people just don't need them.
Yeah, every time i let friends shoot I realise how hard pistol shooting is. They are happy if they can score over 5 on the PPC target at 10-15 yards regulary. I myself hold the 9/10. But then i have 2000 rounds with that particular handgun.. And I dont have any red dots.
Owning handguns in sweden is tied to alot of responsibility and you are not allowed to even buy a gun unless you can shoot certain requirements on 25 meter range.
Rifles on the other hand - give a person a rifle and they can hit a coke can at 100 meters more often then not on their first try.
On the subject of how recent the "Wild West" was, I remember posting a picture up of Wyatt Earp standing beside a 1926 Packard Model 326 “Opera Coupe”. This was for a game of guessing the historical figure. Earp was alive 'till 1929 & was an adviser for some of the early cowboy movies. Needless to say, no-one realised that it was Earp in the photograph as in their heads he was from a much earlier time.
A lot of the other famous/infamous lawmen and bandits of the era like Emmett Dalton also appeared in early films or "advised" on their production. And the infamous Comanche war chief and terror of the west Quanah Parker ended up a somewhat wealthy cattleman, appeared in early films, and attended Roosevelt's inauguration as a diplomat along with chiefs from other tribes.
There's a famous photo of a confederate soldier standing on the steps of a fighter jet.
@@loetzcollector466 I saw a pic of Union troops examine a Sherman tank.
I remember hearing somewhere that Wyatt Earp and John Wayne actually knew each other, and that was part of the reason John Wayne was so good at making westerns.
@@Fluffinator129 Seemingly that's just a Hollywood fable unfortunately. Both were friendly with John Ford, so Wayne learned of Earp from him. But with all the stories of the two, who knows.
Well done. Personal remarks from Viet Nam combat vets indicated a S&W .357 was a desirable sidearm. You described well what those guys said - in the dark, up close, the 45 ACP was your best friend.
There was a time that I considered a S&W M19 with a 4" barrel to be the finest fighting handgun available. I don't think any less of the model 19 but other pistols are better now.
@@dbmail545I’d disagree and say maybe a FN hipower, but for that role, you’ve got a point with your model 19.
@@baker90338old 9mm ball was weak pretty comparable to modern hot .380 so idk about that
@@MattyB7 13 rounds of consistent fire with minimal recoil is mainly my argument for it. Not the best one, but at the very least it gives you something to work with in awkward positions.
Up really close, the difference between .45 and .357 is probably negligible, with 9mm and .38 special being a pretty close contender. Lighter rounds like .380 and .32, maybe even .22, are going to also be effective, though maybe not as 1-shot devastating as .45 or .357. The USSR loadings like 9mm Mak will probably be about the same as .38 Special, and 7.62 Tokarev would be like a .357 mag. ALL handguns under the top-level magnums of today will be orders of magnitude behind the rifles of WW2. Beyond the crazy outliers, you're just not going to find handguns that can match .303, 8mm Mauser, .30-06, or 7.62x54, or even come close.
"Couldn't hit a barn from the inside." That's never leaving my lexicon.
Remember
Switching to your sidearm is always faster than reloading
Try as I might, I never could get a backpack reload to work in real life.
@@Andrew-ps6xe its a line from Call Of Duty... not real life...
Akimbo
@@gljnjo It's a joke, dumbass
I have an anecdote about the WW2 era rifle, carbine, pistol debate. My grandpa was a corpsman serving with the Marines in the Pacific during the campaign in the Solomon Islands and was awarded the Silver Star. Before I went to basic training to join the Marines he told me something to the effect of "When they issue you a weapon get the carbine, it's much lighter and faster than the rifle, and the pistol is useless."
My father in law said the same thing. He qualified expert with the 1911 and still said the only thing it was good for was doing yourself in. He carried a carbine for 4 years throughout the Pacific campaign.
If your primary weapon either runs dry on ammo or suffers a malfunction that can't be readily fixed on the spot, you'll regret not carrying a handgun.
My grandfather was an officer with 8th Army Air Corps and bought his 1911 in 1943. When I went as a very young PFC with 1st Armored to Desert Storm, he gave me that 1911 with a box of 45s and an old leather carrier. The old Vietnam vets showed me how to use and care for it since a lot of them had one. That 1911 is still with me. Looking at it right now. My daughter just graduated RN school and is thinking about a direct commission into the army reserves after the elections, depending how it turns out. 😉 She will get that gun since she has known how to use it since she was 12.
That’s a great story. Thanks to your family for serving. I hope your daughter gets to continue the tradition.
I believe Ian does these giveaways because he is only allowed to have so many guns in his house and he needs the space for more french guns.
"Personal protection totem" 😁
Emotional support gun ❤
"God's Pistol Cause 9mm doesn't kill a cow"
You typed the thing that he said!
The submarine I was on in the mid 80s was commissioned in 1967, and the small arms locker reflected that: we had M14s, Remington 870s, and 1911s. I was already a disciple of Col. Cooper, so getting to qualify with a .45 was fantastic. My division leading chief was a horrible shot, couldn’t hit the side of a barn if he was standing inside, so when we qualled, I was on one side & one of the cooks was on the other. The range master tells us to pump about five rounds each into SKCs target (because no one leaves the range until everyone has a qualifying score), and we each had plenty of hits. Poor chief never could live that down.
Can confirm small arms locker load-out. ET2(SS)-Nuc '83-'89
I always thought they should give the topside watch a shotgun instead of a 1911. It has been awhile but I recall the pistol was carried empty, hammer down, safety on, in a leather flap holster snapped shut, and both magazines were in a pouch on the other side. Also, the magazines were one or two rounds short of being full.
The idea that everyone in the Old West carried a gun is a myth. I remember back in the 60's reading an interview with a (by then, very old) man who'd been a Deputy Sheriff in the Old West, in which he said that most men deliberately chose _not_ to carry a gun because it could get them into a lot more trouble than it could get them out of - the ruffians, troublemakers, and outlaws would leave unarmed people alone because picking on them would not only be cowardly, but likely get them hung because they couldn't claim to have acted in self defence.
I also remember he said that the "quick draw" was invented by Hollywood - In real life, if you were going into a dangerous situation you did it with your gun in your hand, not your holster.
You are right, but! Bigger than life character wild Bill Hickock did face down in a gunfight in the middle of the street, drawing from the holsters. Problem was, his 2 documented gunfights were the Only ones recorded. A cool head to take time and aim was what won the fight.
No one ever said that EVERYONE in the "Old West" carried a gun, and by gun, I'll guess you meant a handgun. No, they certainly did not, at least not openly in a holster hanging on their leg, gunfighter style. But plenty of cowboys (ranch-hands, vaqueros, etc) carried full-sized handguns, often in a holster on the saddle, specifically because of being on horseback. A lot of other folks carried the pocket pistols of the era, as well. It wasn't everyone, but it also wasn't just the outlaws and sheriffs, either.
Uh, that interview tale sounds taller than John Wayne. It certainly busts no myths with that pedigree.
It's important to not overlook the contribution of "soldier psychology" on combat effectiveness. I think almost anyone who's spent time on the two-way shooting range will agree with me that you feel less vulnerable if you have a handgun in addition to your rifle. I think Ian's term "emotional support weapon" is applicable. I once read the statement, "Pistols don't win battles. They only save the lives of individual soldiers. And while that's not of much importance to military planners, it's of critical importance to individual soldiers." Sorry, it was years ago and I don't remember who said it. I could even make the case that very few soldiers' lives are saved by pistols, but having one just makes you feel better. I carried one for years all over the world. I only used a pistol once and I didn't hit shit, but to this day, I'd still want one if I were going into danger.
If having a pistol results in a more emotionally stable soldier, then that in itself is of value
It's like archers or spearmen carrying swords. Battles historically speaking weren't won so much by sword and shield but when you lose or break your spear or the enemy closes where a bow isn't of much use having a sword at your side may make the difference between holding the line or breaking and running.
@@Hybris51129 Exactly. The sword will inspire you to make the wrong choice at the personal level (the experienced swordsmen that are charging you are going to slice you like peperoni in short order) but the right choice at the army level: buy time, however short, for applicable maneuvering to counter the breakthrough.
@@andersjjensenWhat you said makes no sense. Archers were almost almost never pursued by infantry, so I have no idea where you come to the conclusion that archers relying on their swords would be fighting against "experienced swordsmen".
@@jordanandrew2786 If archers ever were to use their swords it's probably not going to be the enemy archers because everyone just ran out of arrows... If archers ever have to use their swords its because shit has gone wrong. But you can substitute swordsmen for pikemen or cavalry if you like. The end result is still the same: they're going to get pummelled in close quarter combat because they're not close quarter combat specialists.
But my 1911 killed a tiger tank.
That's *your* M1911.
Ours have yet to achieve such a feat.
Be fair. It just marked the target for the air strike;).
@silverjohn6037 nah it went through the driver viewport and served right into the ammo. By God.
ehhh it most likely killed a Panzer IV... Tigers were kinda scarce ;)
Bullshit. You aren't Tom Hanks. Only his Magical Tom Hanks power can do that. Stop lying.
Hm...I want a doctor to sign paperwork that I need an emotional-support-pistol right this instant :D ^^
My dad had an unorthodox use for his M1911 in Vietnam. He ran an LCM-8 landing craft that had 4 machine guns on it and at some point "aquired" a M1911 and a bunch of .45 tracer ammunition. He would use the .45 tracers to direct the fire of the machine guns on the boat because yelling over 2 M2s and 2 M60s didn't work for some reason. By the time he turned it in at the end of his tour, he said that you could just about drop of fully cased .45APC round down the barrel of that gun because the tracer ammo ate at barrel so much.
As for close in personal defense on the boat, they had a shotgun for that, Ithaca pump-action iirc.
i think the show The Pacific had a scene that really captured how treasured handguns where when Eugene B. "Sledge" receives a pistol in the mail from his parents, it's featured quite a few times throughout the show.
James Jones' novel The Thin Red Line, PFC Doll's desire for a pistol compelled him to steal one from another troop compartment while aboard the troop transport ship.
Jones also wrote a short novel titled The Pistol.
Don't forget Jones' WW2 novel "The Pistol"...which follows a stolen 1911 through numerous hands !!!
Thanks! Just add "The Pistol" to my library.
In the film it is hanging in its holster off a bunk when he snatches it. He uses it later against charging Japanese soldiers on top of Hill 210
Band of Brothers had Tab make a big deal about the fact that his police chief from his home town sent him a Colt New Service to take with him.
One of our training officers pointed this out in the 90's.
We were being trained by a guy that was trained by a ww2 vet. That was trained by a Spanish war vet that was trained by a cw vet
It's similar in aviation, people forget how short a history it has.
I worked with an old guy in about '97 who'd had a small prop plane for many years. His instructor's own license had been signed by one Orville Wright.
Just under 60 years ago, I was a Corpsman with the First Marne Division in the War Games in South East Asia. I carried an Ithica Shotgun and had a 1911 in an old Tanker chest holster. In one little action i had to go out about 10 yards from the main group and tru to stop a leak in the Point man. I had three Marines giving covering fire and just as I got the bleeding under cotroll Charile popped up about 7 yards away, i pulled that 1911 and guess what, it worked as advertised. It did the job when needed.
Speaking with a Special Forces NCO who had done a few tours in the sandbox and the topic of handgun proficiency came up. He said that if things had gone so far south that he needed a handgun he was probably screwed already - he would prefer to carry an equivelent weight in ammo for his M-4. Hard to argue with that.
You can argue against that. Rifles can go down, certain tasks are more efficiently completed with a pistol. I think it was on Garand Thumbs channel were two Israeli soldiers were talking about pistols, and made a very compelling argument for them. No situation is ever the same.
There's a Green Beret with a TH-cam channel called Modern Tactical Shooting who spoke about how he could count on one hand the amount of times his entire SF group ever had to draw and actually fire pistols in combat during his tours in Iraq. When it was absolutely needed, it was very much welcome. Otherwise, even with SF doing CQB, it was a rarity to need to use them. Regular infantry will see even less use out of them.
Why do people make up stories like this for TH-cam clout. Honestly. No one cares.
There's no reason to neglect carrying a handgun as a secondary weapon. If your primary weapon, be it a rifle or shotgun, is rendered inoperable then you're screwed.
@@NorthernNorthdude91749 You probably don't realize how much gear front line troops carry. They really have to consider every pound and it's always a trade off coming down to what is absolutely essential.
My father got his 1911 off the deck of the battleship he served on at Pearl Harbor after it was raised. There were several scattered on the deck. As I remember his story, a Chief told the Sailors that had come aboard to help themselves cause those guns would not be kept by the navy.
It's an intriguing thought that, today, there is the chance that a few privately held 1911's sank at the attack of Pearl Harbor.
One of the very first handguns I learned to shoot as a teenager was a 1911. I never found it difficult to shoot because I didn't have much of a basis for comparison, but even today switching back and forth at the range between 9 mm and 45 I don't feel a substantial difference.
Most modern 9mm pistols are polymer frame, which while being lighter and easier to carry also increases felt recoil since there’s less mass to absorb the rearward force. So a lower recoiling round with a lighter gun cancels each other out. I definitely noticed similar felt recoil between my steel frame double stack 1911 in .45ACP and my polymer frame Walther P99 in 9mm.
Since I don’t mind the weight, I’ll take the more powerful round with similar felt recoil. heh
A couple weeks ago I shot in a C&R 2-gun action challenge match with my service grade m1 garand and service grade M1911A1. The rifle shooting went well but good lord I embarrassed myself with that pistol. This vid made me feel better, thanks Ian!
There are lots of anecdotes from World War I of Canadian soldiers scrounging sidearms. Some of that was to obtain an "Emotional Support Sidearm" (Let us not forget that in 1914 to 1918, Canada was still *in* its "Frontier Period," although granted Canada's frontier was a lot less violent and mythologised than America's.) but a great deal of it was for scouting and trench raiding. Describing those sidearms as a "replacement for a bayonet" is perfect, I think - indeed, officially the trench raiders were supposed to be armed with bayonets, machetes, and grenades. I suspect that if M1 Carbines had existed at the time, most of those soldiers would have very happily traded up.
The thing about trench raiding and pistols is they're meant to be last resort if the alarm get raised. Most of it is crawling around, trying to sneak up on sentries and slip back out all undetected, only going loud if you get noticed. To this end a pistol is more of a replacement for a rifle than a bayonet; a bayonet or other melee weapon is there to quietly dispatch enemies, a pistol is there in the place of a rifle as it's easier to carry whilst trying to crawl around and be quiet.
I'm also suspicious of there being any official armaments for doing this. Trench raids in the BEF lacked any sort of top down direction and were largely an initiative of each regiment with each taking different approaches (some the commonly thought of method, others a battle in miniature, others just plain didn't engage in it) with most melee weapons being ad hoc implements adapted from existing gear or cobbled together from what was around. It was also a volunteer job that saw a small nucleus of regulars doing most of the work, people who probably had their own equipment and preferences.
My dad was in Vietnam. Puking Buzzards. Was in jungle more than on base. Said he would get couple hundred 45. Bunch of blasting caps and practice when he was in camp. He was a excellent marksman. Taught me and my bro when we were young to respect firearms. Miss shooting and hunting together. Didn't matter if it was black powder, rifles, or trap. Great vid as always. Love to read the comments too. I wish dad could of seen your vid on m-60. He carried one most time he there. Thx again for great vids and information.
My Grandfather fought in the Mexican Campaign and in WWI in France with Black Jack Pershing. He carried a .45 and was awarded two Silver Stars.
That is awesome my great grandfather fought in WW1 in the 32nd red arrow he had a cramra and took many pictures witch I have a book of
@@chicorodriguez3964 That is amazing! My Grandfather was in the 109th Artillery.
The war in Europe ended while my step-dad was on a Liberty ship bound for France. He worked in the motor pool and occasionally guarded prisoners. As a non-smoker he swapped a carton of smokes for a found P-38. Not too interested in semi autos he swapped the P-38 for a Colt 32-20 revolver. The guy who traded with him found some German 9mm with black tips. While shooting this ammo he blew up the P-38, with minor injury to his hand. Opps, machine gun ammo!
Cheers,
jc
Great personal story.
I was a mil/LEO firearms instructor and competitive shooter. I made most of my leg points (all in combat-format matches) for the Distinguished Pistol badge with a rack-grade 1911A1. When we had to turn the 1911s in and be issued a stinking M9, it took me two years to finish up the last ten leg points. My M9 was so wretched you could wiggle the muzzle around in the slide with it in battery. I was also a bullseye shooter with a classic Box-O-Pistols; smith-built softball and hardball 1911s and a S&W M41. I also shot both bullseye and combat rifle (NM M14 & rack-grade M16A2).
It's sad when a no-later-than-1945 built 1911 is more desirable than the (then) current issue crunchenticker. It's also sad that organizations allow ammo costs to prevent them from allowing budding handgunners to blossom.
My match pistol for the local LEO autoloader division is a parts-gun 1911. It will stay in the 10 & X rings of a B27 if I do my part. I recently evolved my match revolver from an M66 to an M686 to an M625-8 JM so I can reduce to one ammo caliber...the .45ACP.
For some reason I can't edit my post.
My revolver for competition is a Security Six, not a Service Six.
Great grampa used a double barreled shotgun when a town marshal in Montana during the Old West. 😊
That's really cool that you know that so many people today have no idea what there family members did to make America
Fricking early gang. Its a misconception that the US dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In reality, when flying over, the pilot actually just shot once at the city with his 1911
It’s true. My great grandpa saw the blast from Okinawa and he knew “that blast could only come from one thing. The .45”
That's real stopping power!
Yeah. Contrary to popular belief, the end-product of Manhattan Project wasn't the atom bombs, but the Pack-a-Punch machine. And Japan didn't get Fat Man and Little Boy, it's actually Mustang and Sally.
They were aiming at Tokyo but it was beyond 50 yards so…
Totally incorrect. It was Dolphin and Whale. 😅
I was issued the M15, M1911A1, M9, and M11. I qualified once a year with less than 100 rounds. Some of us did OK anyway. An airman stopped a bad guy with a 70 yard head shot from his M9 (IIRC, 4 shots, 2 hits, head and shoulder). Today is better; they do it quarterly with about 400 rounds.
What did you do that were issued an M11?
Dad used a 1911 or Colt Python in guerilla warfare extensively in his civilian government job in Korea, the Philippines, Laos and South America adter WWII.
He was doing guerilla warfare as a civilian? Was he a merc?
@scottmccrea1873 no. Of course not. He was in a very special unit of former OSS, former Pacific theatre combat Marines, former Army Rangers, former fighter pilots, and Flying Tigers. My mentors. Before we had our Army Special Forces, formed in 1957, we had Dad and his "friends," formed in 1950. The unit still in existence today. Their single longest involvement was in Laos. Look it up. Research a little. Dad was a super patriot. Mom, no slacker, and his children were often close by or with him. It was a magical upbringing. No. Not a merc.
There are plenty of personal stories either way. The argument of whether it is useless or quite handy is a classic case of the old "Six of one, half dozen of the other" rule. For every story of it essentially being useless, there no doubt will be one of it outright saving someone's bacon. We also can't forget that sometimes just the simple act of shooting back, regardless of whether or not you actually hit anything, is enough to get you home. At the end of the day, it's more than likely an exercise in futility to try to make an argument in either direction.
My Dad was in the Army in WWII. He complained the 1911 kicked so bad no one could hit anything. In the Marines they taught us the round is gone before you feel the recoils. Thus a matter of training that's believable. I know nothing about Army training but we spent two weeks on the rifle range in 1971, just as they had in 1941. My job, later, required that I go to the pistol range. Unfortunately the range staff seemed less interested in marksmanship with pistols. I wasn't and applied, on a smaller scale what I'd learned on an M 14. Don't flinch my friends.
What about...a 1911 WITH a bayonet?
Geneva convention forbides it 😂
Are you Japanese?🤔
"Shut up and take my money!!!"
I don’t know if anyone still makes them, but I remember seeing bayonets that mount on a pistol rail making their way around lists of silly gun accessories a few years ago. If you have a 1911 with an accessory rail…
In the trench warfare of WWI it filled the need for a close range combat weapon. The military versions usually had looser tolerances to help avoid jamming when dirty. On the civilian side match grade 1911's were very popular with competition shooters for years.
They still are. Bullseye competition multi gun matches are generally these three guns: .22, .45ACP, and revolver, any type, or any type of centerfire.
We have my grandfather's WW2 issued 1911. Funny story, it was in a chest that got lost during a PCS. Showed up almost a decade later after it had long been written off.
I wish it were possible to have a book about personal pistols carried in WW2, Korea, Vietnam,etc collected in one place. Heard a few here and there but with many older vets gone, we'll never hear some fascinating stories.
On further thought, possibly a website dedicated to stories from the relatives of these vets who were involved.
I own a Colt 1911 Government Model that was owned and used by a US Soldier in the Army Air Corp. He even had it in a custom made M3 holster. His immediate descendants were adamant he had the gun with him while in Burma. Out of curiosity I checked Military Newspapers from Burma and there was plenty of references to soldiers having non issued weapons, including several accounts of people having 1911s mailed to them.
As I recall the only ones in my Combat Engineer company who had .45s in '84 were the company commander and the first sergeant . Everyone else including the EXO and the lieutenants had M16s
My grandfather told me all the GI's would steal handguns from each other if you left it laying around
I am infertile from eating 12 bags of civil war black powder.
Eating eat? You gotta mix it with water to make a black powder smoothie.
Did you chase it with beer? Gotta chase it with beer.
Dude, you're supposed to cut it with Red Bull.
😅😅😅😅
Fire!
The very first time I handled an M9 in the Army was as I stepped onto the range to qualify with it. Still managed an expert, even though that's nothing to brag about.
The range is pretty easy. The only tough part is you're supposed to advance down the range/trench during the course of fire. Of course, nobody in the army actually practices this qual, so you end up with your safety pulling you back to keep you on line with whoever is going the slowest.
Great video. I was an officer in the US Army and only carried a pistol for guard duty or funeral detail. My issue weapon as an infantry platoon leader/staff officer was an M16. Later, as an aviator, I was issued a .38 spl revolver and got no training other than, "Don't ever shoot yourself or lose the gun." In combat, aviators packed M4 carbines when they could.
"You couldn't hit a barn from the inside with those things."
That really takes it a step further.
To show the lack of know how watch the episode of Band of Brothers were the guy finally gets a Luger and shoots himself in the thigh hours later
Yeah...then Malarkey gets it. I wonder what ever happened to that pistol. Do you think the family still has it and keeps it safe?
That reminds me of an Operations Research report done after WW2. OR boffins analyzed medical records and concluded that half the American G.I.s who suffered pistol wounds had .45 caliber holes in them.
@@keegantripp1245 don't know. Kinda wonder if Winters' family kept the Luger he got
Major Winters sent some two dozen handguns home himself
@@saltzkruber732 I'm talking about the Luger he got from the officer that was never fired
Americans love handguns? Pah-shaw, no way. I've never heard this.
If you look at official TO&Es, the Germans issued a lot more pistols than the Americans, AFAIK
(Germans were among the only ones to issue pistols to squad-level machine gunners, among other things)
The lack of quality pistol training was still a problem in the 2000s. My company was issued M9's. After a short block of instruction on how to use and clean it we were off to the range to immediately qualify. Many soldiers had not shot pistols before and could of used some direction. Instead people just picked up bad habits.
I wish all the anti gunners that say only military and police should be “allowed “ to have guns would read all of the anecdotes like this that I see.
@michaelprather8371 100% true. While I was a slightly better than average shot While I was in the army I am orders of magnitude better 15+ years later by training on my own as a civilian.
Much like the marine corp qual, one of the main points is to establish confidence which the army and marines do well with rifles. Other weapon systems can be real hit or miss.
Anyone who’s actually shot a bare bones M1911A1 style pistol will tell you it kinda sucks. I’ve owned a couple. The sights absolutely suck, but aren’t so bad for the time. You can train and get pretty good with one, but we’re truly spoiled with modern weapons with better features, and there’s so many much better options now.
Moral of the story, you need to practice with it, for it to be effective!
And yes, even today, with modern sights most people can't hit the broadside of a barn without regular practice!
-- Sissified if you can't shoot a 1911 --- ??
*Short Story *
My new Bride had never in her life shot a weapon of any sort when we were first married.
I took her out to the "Back 40 Range"
Set up a couple paper target about 50 feet away, and after showing her how to shoot safely,
and showing off by putting the .22 pistol's 10 shots in a 3" circle, I gave her the .22
She proceeds to put 10 shots in a 12" circle.
Not bad for never having handled a gun before.
Gave her the 1911 .45
She puts 10 shots (yes, that magazine held 10) in a 3" circle!
Gave her back the reloaded .22
10 shots = 8" circle
Then the .45 again = 10 in 2" circle!
She never got any better with the .22, but was consistent with the .45 !
Even out at 100 feet
If She ever gets mad at me, I don't want her shooting at me with the .22,
BUT I REALLY Don't want Her doing it with the .45!
She can hit what She's aiming at with that thing!
I have a similar experience with the 1911. I'd fired a lot of pistols out at the range and was always "meh" on them. One day I heard there was a good deal on GI-style 1911s at my LGS so I decided I could finally afford one. I'd never held one before that day. The instant I picked up that 1911 - wow. The angels sang. It felt so incredibly right in my hand - the balance, the weight, the grip, the trigger, everything was perfect. I took it out to the range and it was by far the most accurate pistol I'd ever shot. We're talking consistent ragged single-hole groups at 7 yards.
After that experience, I have always been a big supporter of people who are wanting a pistol to try as many different ones they can before they buy. Everybody's hands are different and when you get "the one", you'll know it.
10 shots, so you had an extended mag, now thats a heavy pistol. try her with a s&w mod 29 in .44 mag, probably will put all six through the same hole lol.
Funny. I was just talking to my doggie buddy about his father who served in WWII in the Aleutians and then Okinawa. His father was issued an M1 carbine and a 1911. He used his 1911 just as much as his carbine in combat because people would just get carried away.
I had an M9, but when I got out and did armed security, I carried a 1911!
There were two stories from Band of Brothers regarding handguns, both illustrative of what Ian discussed. One was where one of the paratroopers received in the mail a police revolver from the local precinct at home. The other of course was the tragic story of the soldier who accidentally shot himself in the leg with a captured Luger and bled to death from it.
I was trained on the 1911A1 in 1982 at Ft Knox as a tanker. They were worn out rattle traps and I had very little confidence in them and really would have preferred that the M9 had been issued while I was still on active duty. History and all that is fine but I'd still have preferred a new Beretta to a worn out 1911.
They were still very much only emotional support weapons and my plan, had the balloon gone up and I survived more than a day, was to loot a Warsaw Pact corpse of a no longer needed AK to have a real weapon.
7:30 I've heard that called Strategically Transfer Equipment to Alternate Location
Spot on, Ian. My colleague is a UK Royal Marines combat veteran and pointed out that target practice was 15m (I was RSO with cadets on the 25m range). Excellent stuff, Ian. Keep it up.
"this gun kinda sucks ... and YOU could WIN IT!"
Well, we all know that due to our superior skills and general toughness, it wouldn't suck in OUR hands!
@@doc_sav This is the firearms equivalent of "I can fix her".
Every pistol either mostly or fully suck in the exact same way. A Glock 17 doesn't change the picture all that much. Unless you do serious range time your odds of hitting a moving target, under duress, at 15 yards are slim to none.
It's not a M1911 problem. It's a problem with pistols in general. And even THEN, Ian was saying simply what I've already been saying to everyone for a while as an M1911 fan, which is that a pistol is not a damn rifle, and this obsession about squeezing as much accuracy out of a combat/self-defense pistol is ridiculous. At 10, MAYBEEE 15 yards, and closer, a pistol is INCREDIBLY effective, but any more than that and it's gonna be a big problem.
I swear, it's like half the people here didn't even watch the whole video.
@@arnox4554 I think we all understand that, just joking around a bit.
My dad, a veteran of the Bulge, shot expert with the M1903 and M1. He cordially disliked the 1911 and said he might as well throw it as shoot it. My brother and I disagree.
1911 may not be as practical today. But it always, even plane Jane GI, is so cool looking
I mean, "look good doing it" is a real thing... :)
As a standard issue service pistol in today's world, yes.
However, it still - for the most part - fits the bill for civilian self-defense.
@@paleoph6168 There are certainly worse options, but generally i think the small magazine capacity holds it back, especially when you can get a compact 9mm pistol with double the capacity
@@paleoph6168depends on the shooter. My daughter has tiny, delicate hands. She can't control a 1911. A small frame 9 works much better for her.
@@ForgottenWeaponsdo you have a video on how it was chosen and designed? What were the losingcompetitors. Your forte!
great analysis, great video, always appreciate your uploads Ian. thank you very much, from NZ.
I just want to state that I have been watching your channel for a few years and always enjoy what you do immensely. I have not seen all your videos (I don't even own a weapon, but served in the Army) but thoroughly enjoy your presentation every time. THANK YOU!🎉
I think - based on watching FW for the last 7 years or so, that the years between 1900 and 1943 are peak gun design - everything after improves upon those weapons
Well, someone had to first to utilize emerging technologies.
I wholeheartedly agree with Ian’s assessment that WWII-era 1911’s were more of an “emotional support pistol” than anything else. The logical follow-up question is “is the same true of modern service pistols?” In my opinion, it’s even more true given that most Western militaries have abandoned the idea that officers should be mostly unarmed and issued them fighting rifles.
Blake Flaherty (BlakeWater0236) had a discussion on the subject in which he asked in what actual, practical scenarios one could feasibly expect a soldier to need a pistol, and the answers generally boiled down to either drivers / vehicle crewmen, tunnel / trench rats, or “what if my main rifle goes down”.
So yeah, with the exception of specialized troops, it could be argued that even today, service pistols are a tradeoff of money and weight for emotional support.
As far as I'm aware, the British Army routinely issued pistols to *all* troops in Afghanistan who went 'outside the wire', no matter what else they were armed with. Don't know if that was the same with US personnel.
I guess a modern soldier costs so much to train, equip and sustain that the extra cost of a Glock-type pistol and holster is negligible and if it keeps them from grumbling it's worth it.
Or in the case of British squaddies, keeps them nicking pistols off the Americans! 😂
Heck, it would be useful for even maintenance crews and support troops. For them and the drivers/vehicle/helicopter crews, it is a weapon which will always be on them. Sure, they’ll likely have a long gun of some sort issued to them. But that weapon would probably be stowed somewhere or leaning on something while they do things like their job.
And as limited the effectiveness of a pistol is, it’s better than a knife.
I don't know about the 1911 being hard to shoot. It was the first handgun I shot. It belonged to my father's best friend, and it was one he brought back from the war. Actually, his hobby was collecting and refurbishing old military arms. He had an old pig farm in Winchester, VA. We would take a trunk load of guns out to the farm and just spend the day. I remember stopping by the local gun shop. There was a big wooden bowl by the cash register full of surplus .30-06 ammo. I think we paid about a penny a round. Yes, I also got to shoot his M1 rifle.
So, I was 10 years old when I first shot a 1911. I was fairly good at it from the beginning. I could reliably hit a 3oz Dixie cup nailed to a tree from up to ten yards. I also got to fire his P-08 Luger. It was a hoot. By the way, I am of very average size.
All this took place in the 1960s. Ah, the good ole days.
By the way, my father, who was an enlisted man, carried a 1911 and an M1 Carbine in the Pacific. He had no prior background with guns or the frontier, as he grew up in New England and his father was an immigrant. His war experience was not pleasant. He told me that when he left the Army, he could have bought his guns for $5 each. He gave them back. The war was also his first experience of ships and planes. He avoided both afterwards. His first flight after that was in the late 1980s to attend my wedding as he and my mother could not make the long drive themselves.
I enjoy the engineering in firearms but the history of their use is my favorite part of this channel. Thanks Ian!
Even though I have a variety of pistols with some of them being more modern, the 1911 is still by far my favorite. If I could only have one handgun itd be my Remington 1911
In WWII, carrying a handgun or M1 carbine got you moved to the top of the enemy's target list. People like Dick Winters ditched these weapons and grabbed an M1 Garand, which was far more effective anyway. They also removed all rank insignia and forbade saluting.
Absolutely. Snipers always looked for those flap-over military holsters. Especially on the Eastern front.
I could see that argument with handguns, but highly doubt it for the carbines, especially when by the end of the war every REMF that didn’t have an infantry label on them was being issued a carbine, and we had 50% more carbines in inventory than Garands by 1945 would mean that’s a lot of people on an enemies target list.
That was the same logic in the British Army during World War 1. British officers began the war leading charges armed only with swagger sticks, swords or pistols. German soldiers soon learned to shoot the guy who looked the most important and many British attacks faltered when they ran out of leaders. so - by 1918 - British officers wore the same tim hats and carried the same Lee-Enfield rifles as their men.
@@Verdha603 Carbine-armed REMFs seldom went up front.
@@tsmgguy Sure didn’t stop the front from coming to them still.
Lovely video!
Thanks, Ian.
Great video, Ian! Thanks!
An emotional support weapon. 🤣
When the US Constabulary was formed in 1946 to police postwar Germany, General Harmon, its first commander, had 1911s issued to every man.
Thing was, he had a mixture of active duty troops who wanted to go home, raw replacements, and misfits and fuckups handed off by other commanders. He needed to raise morale. He gave them special uniform details and insignia, pistols, their own jeeps, and so on.
But the 1911s were a key symbol.
They became an incredibly effective force, by the way. My dad served in the occupational forces and said that the dead enders and criminals feared them.
No wonder they were so effective in scaring the populace considering the high rates of rapes by US soldiers in post-war Germany.
Circle C Cowboys
@@chuckfinley4292 Yup, they had about 300 soldiers on horseback for patrolling remote rural areas.
My father was the basketball coach at Norwich university in the early 1960’s.
General Harmon was the President of the University. General Harmon recruited him to be the coach. My father said that he would go to faculty teas, and everyone had tea. Except General Harmon, he had bourbon in his tea cup. My dad said he was about 5’3 and tough as nails. I was baptized in the church on campus, and he was there. My mother said that if she brought me to an event on campus he would always grab me and hold me for a few minutes. When I graduated college I became an armor officer and served in the 2nd Armored Division, Hell On Wheels. I think it is safe to say I am the last and probably only armor officer who was held by Harmon as an infant who went on to serve in the famous division which he commanded in Work War 2. I carried a .45 as my personal weapon and was never very good with it. We trained a lot on the main gun and machine guns but we spent very little time training either rifles or pistols.
An interesting talk, Ian. Thanks for the insights.
Brilliant INSIGHT on this pistol, I grew up in 1970s UK shooting an air pistol replica and went the forces 1980 and ditched the issued HI power for the 1911 I had to supply myself, only side arm I can hit anything with.
It makes logistical sense to train a soldier with a carbine rather than a handgun.
It can't be overstressed how much easier it is to hit a target at 50-150m with a carbine than any handgun.
They both use a different round than the Garand. So, either way, don't you have a second round to source, supply, etc?
@dbmail545 common sense. Handguns are effective in a practical sense out to like 25m max. At a static range shooting targets you can get about 50m average, 100m if you have an eagle's eye
@@scottmccrea1873Outside specialists like airborne troops if you’re having to supply significant quantities of 30C or 45acp you’re doing something very wrong.
If only the submachine guns during WWII had been issued to fire .30 Carbine They would have been more effective.
Regarding the 'Old West', that culture and lifestyle actually persisted into the 1930s.
There are cowboys in Florida today that rely on their guns, horses and dogs to make a living.
It some places it still continues. Granted, it's on very small scale since so few Americans (2%) actually work in agriculture and stock raising. So people who want to live that way can.
@@scottmccrea1873 'Murica! 😎 So true! Yet, there were still plenty of places that didn't see mechanization or electricity until after WWII.
@@petesheppard1709 Yet, somehow the Rural Electrification Administration still exists. Government programs never die, they just get repurposed.
@@petesheppard1709 From what I've seen, it looks like a miserable life. I'm sure being a ranch owner or executive in one of them would be nice. But the actual work looks grueling and dangerous.
Not sure the 1911 is forgotten. My grandfather was a WWII vet. He didn’t speak much about it but every time he saw a 1911 he would say it was the finest weapon ever made. The Garand was a close 2nd.
My father, a tanker in Patton's 3rd Army, "liberated" a P27 (CZ27) .32 automatic and carried it as a "personal protection" piece. He eventually "liberated" several other guns but got rid of most them before going home.
Unless you're Hickok 45, then you make hits out to 80 yards with the 1911.
He's a giant, so the elevation of his hold on target somewhat mitigates the diminished ballistic performance at range.
I love that Ian does the video in a smoking jacket.
Stellar video as usual. You should consider putting some of these on Blu-rays so they don't disappear into the ether if the YT Overlords nuke the channel.
My father was in the tank destroyer battalion of the 3rd Armored in WWII, when he graduated from officers school he was presented with a saber……remember, armor was still considered “Calvary”…..and later issued a 1911.
Sight radius, recoil, and magazine capacity will always outweigh whatever "comfort" a pistol provides.
Awesome info as always, I'm pretty proficient with my 1911, but I imagine most soldiers had little to no experience shooting it and agree 1000% with everything you stated!
What a way to eat my Wheaties this morning.
Two stories my dad told me, (he was a veteran of the US Army Air Corp) was the 45 cal was chosen because it was the smallest caliber pistol round that could kill a cow with one shot, and that German soldiers that found 1911's would carry them in replacement of their Luger as it has more "knock-down" power than a 9mm. On a side note, when the M-1 carbine showed up, the ones he trained with, were full auto! After a few mag dumps, the soldiers would return them to armory with warped barrels. Those full auto models soon disappeared.
Love my 1944 1911. Replace new set of springs, shoots nicely, never jams. Hi from down under.
The only guy I've ever heard speak extremely confidently in his handgun was a ground branch / GRS guy. He said he and his partner had G19s and they "could do some damage with those".
They probably shoot 20k rounds a year, modern handgun, modern accessories (reddot, comp?), modern techniques and training. Plus he had army / SF training before that. Even he said "but we also had a carbines and a belt-fed in the truck"
Ian. Hi. I saw the video and will not read any of the comments below before I type these lines. From memory, the need of a handgun for the US Army dated back from the Philippines war when handguns available were .38's, except that during combat, it had been witnessed that soldiers shooting assailants with those would never stop any despite having hit them once, twice, even several times. Initial reports indicated that said assailants had been dopped up ( early captagon I suppose ) and so they would not stop unless a vital organ was hit. This meaning that even if hit, they could still spear one or two guys even when injured. However, troops that had been transported by boat ( most if not all of them ) had had the opportunity to nick some .44 revolvers from the vessel armory. Reports from the same battles indicated that assailants hit with a .44 slug would drop like a sack of potatoes ! Not always dead on the spot, but hit sufficiently hard enough so they really would stop fighting. If I still recall well, there was a point in time when the US military required a handgun in no less than .45 and no less than 8 rounds capacity. When the tender/trials was done there was one revolver ( out ) and some pistols, Colt, Mauser ( or Luger ), another US manufacturer ( Savage ? ) and a French manufacturer that might have been Hendaye ( Manufacture d'Armes des Pyrénées Françaises (MAPF)). Also from memory, they all took the mandatory torture tests and only John Moses Browning design and ... the French pistol met every requirement ! The German pistol did not pass the test. And preference was then given to a US-based manufacturer, be it that JMB was in Belgium and contract was initially given to COLT with the JMB design. From the same distant information I had, that .45 pistol was typically to be used by radio operators that need a hand on the Morse commutator and to be able to defend himself with a pistol powerful enough to stop an intruder dead in his tracks while still transmitting, as radio operators were typically in a radio truck with the back door open as he was transmitting. This is how I remember the story. I also remember meeting the biggest Luger collector in NZ a long time ago in the South island of NZ who had one of said-pistols that had been made specifically for that tender in .45
The Colt M1911, an American classic
When I think of the 1911, I almost always think of using it in the old Fairbairn-Sykes or Points style of shooting, and, tbh, when I shoot my 1911, it feels a lot better to shoot it that way than to try and aim down the sights. Perfect "gutter-fighting" pistol.
Also the sights on world war era 1911s just were clearly not made with distance shooting in mind