Stop Recording Vocals Like This
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2024
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I tried the link and it's not emailing me anything. Nothing in the spam folder either. Tried a different email address just in case and same thing. Kept refreshing the email page just in case to no avail. Unless it takes more than 15 minutes to send but I figured it was automated. Please test it on your end. Thanks
Yea the third is the easiest especially for rappers that can’t sustain their presence long. Definitely for singers though. I kind of do a mix of 2 & 3 because I usually like the artist to sing or rap a little before they messed up and piece that in and I basically stitch it all together and it sound like one take 😂😂.
@@cameronasberry9017Vk
Are These Open headphones?
If I had a voice like Joe's I'd never stop singing. When I sing my wife goes to the neighbors so they will know she's not stabbing me and call the police. 😁
😂
Well done, well done
Jajajajaj
Your neighbor to your wife: "When did you get a cat and what's wrong with it?"
@@herbie_the_hillbillie_goat lol
Being able to punch in and out in DAWs makes recording vocals a TON of fun! No need for lengthy takes, just sing until you mess up and punch in from there. It's a blast, but make sure you're maintaining input consistency or the edits will be tough to mix cleanly.
Im still learning and wanna try this, punching, do you guys keep or delete the layertrack "beneath" the 2. Or 3. Of each punch Take?
@@Mr.J.a.y.m.s Assuming you're using a good DAW: If I'm not sure I want to delete an edit I just clip it and drag it past the end of the song so it's out of the way but 99% of time I'm deleting it or just shortening the last take to where I want to resume from.
It usually works well for me and certainly for keeping continuity. Still feels right sometimes to go on a mission and follow the arc of the song with a purpose. Harder for sure, and the bigger problem is that doing it that way will likely lead to some songs being abandoned due to entire take sifting burnout😂
This implies that vocalists will sing the same volume and distance from the mic lol. I always tell people “for this mic, this distance from the pop filter, etc” and yet they still manage to move all over the place…..
@@tallmccartneymusic , I am pretty sure you have tried this, but maybe it is still worth noting that one thing that does help me is to have a good chunk of trailer phrase to sing along to, to do a couple or more runs getting used to the dynamics, tone, mouth placement etc. In any case, rather than punching in on the actual track, I create duplicate track(s) for the punch in part, slice out the offending chunk on the original, and when I get the perfect feel, timing, technical stuff on the “punch-in” part, I just move it back up into place on the (non-destructively) sliced original vocal track and mess around with the cross fades. It is easy for me, because I have done with my own vocal parts a gazillion times, but I find the less experienced singers get it with a little guidance and patience.
This is so timely. After recording at home for decades, I came to this conclusion myself in exactly the way you describe. The entire vocal several times, then divided up, then finally I thought no... I'm not moving on to the next verse until I have a great take. It came naturally, but I also realized I just couldn't do the endless searching through track after track anymore. It feels like a weight has been removed, as "the vocals" had become something to be dreaded more than something to really look forward to, which I think they should be. The vocals are the song after all, and it should be more of a magical time than an editing nightmare for the next day or two or three. I highly recommend this approach to anyone. Free yourself! Thank you for this!
lol same here!!!
Yeah same I started doing this a few months ago after years of doing it the other way.
Likewise. Resist the urge to blow through it all and do not move on until each part is nailed.
My approach is to tell the artist from the get go, that we will record the song twice on different days. First I record the "Demo" where the singer is just making the first tries of everything - I focus on the melody and that the take is clear to understand what's going on. Then I'm working again on a arangement of the song, thinking about the parts where I'd use some backing vocals and all that stuff, while the singer is listening to what is recorded and is working on what to improve on. Then when we're on another session the singer is prepared to make a one take and we end up with the very best.
I wanna get to this level
@@wellDamnJamz not Sure if it’s a matter of “level” or just a workflow that fits You and Your approach :) do what You feel is best for You
This has always been the way I try to do it! It works very well to focus the artist and get them to do the work you would have to do yourself or fight with them to do in real time. Convincing a singer that they're breathing wrong/flat/making weird sounds in real time can sometimes not be ideal or totally impossible depending on the personality type. A singer that believes they can do no wrong in a session will usually come back later "with their own improvements" if given the chance. I feel like most people are adjustable when given a chance to reflect this way. That is, if they're responsible, and driven toward the best results.
@@cropcircle5693 also being a singer helps :) im always trying to give my Feedback if I know how to help improve The performance. I never met anyone who would resist to at least try my advice.
That's a good idea
I'll try that way out
It sounds like a good way to get more songs done in a day
I gotta say, I used to record tons of people and I did this, but it didn't get as good results. Likely that was partly because the vocalists weren't as good. But I've found I get the best takes out of vocalists by intentionally not interrupting them and giving them as little feedback as possible. The more I've tracked artists, the more I've leaned into giving them very little input because it brings them out of the emotion of the song and caught up with technique. Just my experience as an artist, engineer, and producer. I do understand this method tho, and perhaps I'll give it a try again.
Maybe it depends on the singer’s level…this video might be more oriented towards people who are relatively new to singing or recording, and therefore they have a lot more room for improvement technique wise than probably the artists you have been recording, who meanwhile can instead focus more on channeling emotions to take it an extra mile or two
I take the same approach with vocalists but my reason is because they're extremely self conscious and everything feels like a criticism. I remember one singer repeatedly giving a perfunctory "I'm not a trained singer" before almost every take, it's painful to watch people who lack confidence in these settings.
As a artist and now recording my own music I can’t tell you how true this is!
I'm glad you mentioned preserving the emotion...to me, that's way more important than sonic perfection.
Excellent advice Griffin
According to the members of Oasis, they would limit their recording to 3 takes, and if they failed, they'd just record another time. I really like this because it forces you to practice well and be ready on the day of recording.
Also, as a rapper, I personally try to nail it in a single take and hopefully the first or second try. And 9 times out of 10 the first complete take works the best for me. Even if there are some "mistakes" I leave them in because the overall vibe is what's most important to me.
Of course, if I missed a word in an otherwise awesome take, I would punch it to just correct that, but that happens rarely.
That being said, great video and I loved hearing your approach to this!
1st take is where it's at, yes! I fully believe in that! I personally have recorded 5 solo albums like that, 52 pieces full of guitars, vibraphone, Rhodes, Piano, static, synth and all 1st takes, be it 4 tracks or 16, depending on how much a particular piece needed. It hit me, usually during the late, late night, when everyone around me was asleep, i would check levels and hit record. A few hours later the piece was ready.
I know that is a very unique way and completely different than recording pre existing songs/material, but still, the 1st take is special.
PS: only downside, haha, i was recording with headphones, convinced my speakers were off, when i looked up and saw my mother standing in my door yelling at me to turn the damn music down, haha....that was over 20 years ago, i still see her standing there, hehe!
@@lowandodor1150 haha, yeah man that first one is special. I've even stopped recording a practice take on my phone. I would do that to get a "first look" at how I'd sound. But then, when recording on my microphone, I'd often notice that phone take was kinda better, haha. So, now I just practice and then go straight to my setup.
they should have re recorded all of it -inc the songwriting lol
When I went to college for music production. My mentor constantly told me stories of how the talent would want another take, but it would sound much worse, and my mentor would instead just play them the 1st or 2nd take.
Limiting yourself is important, it removes the feeling of needing to be perfect
There were some acts that had reputations for hitting it on the first takes (eg The Carpenters, The Osmonds), as they were ready to put it down and were that good. Interestingly, they- not the engineers -would see room for their own improvement(s).
It’s a high risk technique to employ as mixer you have to think about engineering the track and identify good takes in the moment which could leave you without enough backup takes when you listen back a day later and realise that take you thought sounded great (so didn’t get any more takes)is actually not so great or there’s some unwanted noises or glitches in the audio. The other thing is dropping in vocalists to fix phrases often results in different tonalities and energy that is difficult to mix. The vocal is the most important part of a track I think you need multiple takes to work with. My preference is to get five takes but mentally note the best full take then use that as the master and drop in bits from other takes where needed. No need to audition every take for every section.
This is what I came here to say. You don't even have to "mentally" do this. Just highlight the lane/playlist with the take that the singer likes the best, and ONLY where phrases don't land right do you either check other takes that you already have or punch in.
Also sometimes the first take is the best and overwriting over it is kinda counterproductive
I think his method is great if you record one take (warm-up or first) and then go over it and record second track but fixing the mistakey or unwanted parts
But i've yet to record vocals at all
Usually do a "scratch" tak to warm up, it is mostly either sloppy or too uptight and mostly trash but it has some great small impefect pieces, then do 2-3 solid fulls , listen and identify "the main one". And then do 'just one more to be save". This one is usually the best and magic one as there is no pressure for the singer, as we have already identified "the main". Then I quickly comp from the best solid. If there is still any stuff to fix I'll punch in. But usually 1 sloppy, ,2-3 solid and one "free" does the trick if it is rehearsed. I will still keep all takes for later. But i try to get the vocals "done" until the end of the session.
As a vocalist, and someone who does there own mixing and producing, the punching in and fixing works best for me. It’s exhaustive work to sing 5 takes of a line, and then you have to tune and then you have to mix. It’s kind of the same way with learning music, it’s a not the best to practice a part till you mess up and then start from the beginning. Better to break the messed up part down and then move on. Ever since I started doing punch ins I have gotten better recordings, might be different for other people though
@@deadwrestler I agree, but when I meant exhaustive is that you mentally tax yourself out, without even knowing it. Music is fun and pinpoint fixing things is engaging to a detriment. In my head I can sing something 20 times and be like this is getting better, and than take a break come back and be like this got worse and worse. My output has increased significantly switching from the do the takes until it happens thing. It all depends on what makes you happy though, creating music is very personable and what works for people varies. I went to music school, so I know what it feels like to bash your head on a piece of art for 5-8 hrs a day in pursuit of the perfect performance, I just also believe in the law of diminishing returns.
Joe, I record multiple takes like example 1 but I don't review each take. I go - maybe five takes, until I am warmed up and get one that feels good, then I only look for segments of the earlier takes if there is something wobbly I might have done better earlier. I make sure all takes are under identical circumstances- always the same day.
Thanks for the invaluable checklist. You are a hero.
Joe's method 3 is pretty much the only way I have ever recorded vocals. The only slight difference is that we usually record a scratch vocal, singing through the whole song for reference to song sections. Then we tend to do method 3 section by section.
That's interesting. I feel like I just understand how I want the vocals to be once I try singing them with no interruptions, so by recording the whole song and keeping it as a reference seems like a good way to apply this method.
I'll do a scratch take, midi out the notes being hit so i have a good ear reference and then sing along to the midi. i consistently get really good takes (from myself) like this after a couple practice run throughs.
Having immediate feedback and deliver quickly something functional.
You are following an "Agile" way of working, which is a current challenge for many big companies in general (not related to music) and who struggle to achieve.
You should give conferences to companies directors!!
Thank you so much for this 💖
I personally like the "punching in" method. It's way more efficient & less time consuming then 5 diff takes. Bc you're able to clean up, as you go. Then stack your vocals on notes & words that you want to stand out. But whatever works for you as a vocalist. Different methods are ok, long as you created a fire song! Continue to do that thing that works for you.
The best thing about home studio recording tutorials on TH-cam is the variety of approaches and techniques. Love ya, Bro-Joe.
When I watched La Bamba as a kid, seeing how Ritchie recorded in studio had always stuck with me. Years later when I started getting into recording workstations, that style of recording has always been my method, which reminds me of exactly how you describe here.
Reason why I did it this way was because at the start, the only software I used (and could afford to log my ideas) was windows movie maker, and so I would have to do everything in one take and I would spend hours and hours practicing until I got it right. What made it rough for me at the time was that I was really into prog metal, and so I felt like a good song wasn't good unless it was over 5 minutes long, sometimes around 10 minutes. Using the method you described made life so much easier. The good thing about doing everything in take is that the imperfections is what made it unique and that I got really good at memorizing and performing entire songs. Listening back to the grainy and horribly recorded songs, I can easily remember the feeling I felt when I recorded something, and many times it brings me back to a place in my creativity where I can see things and people, and recollect things I had forgotten about.
Very interesting and original comment!! BTW I've seen the La Bamba movie, but don't remember "how Ritchie recorded in studio", can you remind us? I guess he was using the "punch-in" technique"?
Wow, thank you so much for this. I despise vocal editing, but I’m not a great enough singer to nail it in a couple of takes. It’s the biggest source of procrastination in music for me, and even extends into background vocals and guitar. This is a great way to make decisions immediately without getting too out of the zone.
There’s also more intention behind punch-in takes, instead of focusing on the whole part and hoping for the best
Same
Man, I‘m so happy you‘re promoting this technique. I started working in Studios 1996, SSL console, tapemachine… that era. And for obvious reasons this was our main way of recording. Sometimes we dropped in and out only for a syllable or two to get it right. It‘s also a closer and more involved work with the singer.
I‘m not one of these „back in the days everything was better“ guys… I wouldn‘t want to go back to the limited technical options we had, but this kind of recording I‘d still prefer. The whole „get the recording right“ instead of relying on fixing it digitally…
Novice here. When I'm looking for mixing information on TH-cam, it's hard give any respect to creators who have poor dialogue audio quality. That's certainly not a problem with your channel because it sounds great to me. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise with us all.
I always record in sections. And i don't do takes, i delete them instantly if i don't like them and repeat the same section until it's almost perfect.
yes
with this way we have a lot of backup vocal tracks in case we changed our minds
Same here bro.
Same
Great Advise! I’ve also found that if you record multiple takes for each section of the song start to finish, you can end up sounding like Joe Cocker (and that’s ok) by the last chorus and it’s hard to match all the others tone wise.
I went to the studio for the first time in January to record two songs, The engineer told me to sing the whole song 5 times and then sing the verses again three times and the chorus. When i got the mastered versions of the songs back lets just say i was very disappointed, i have a set up at home with just a mic and a audio interface and i found my records were way better, it seems he didn't put no effects on it or anything. i've started to learn how to mix and master better, which i've learned from your videos. Keep up the good work Joe.
That sucks. Good thing you're learning instead of relying on them
Good point, thing is our consumer grade audio equipment is close enough to studio grade equipment these days so can hardly tell the difference in that sense.
Yes omg! , I've wasted sm money at studio sessions. I feel like it's best to learn on your own and let a team come find you
This is exactly how I record my own vocals. Works a treat and I know exactly what is a bad take right away, and I can just fix everything on the fly. I end up with a good single track fast. A few months ago I recorded a singer and he insisted on the 5 takes approach because he 'couldn't get into it' if we were doing it phrase by phrase.. He made the same mistakes every time and I had to comp together a heap of stuff to get a usable take, and spent ages doing it... and he disliked all of it. In the end, he just ended up redoing an even worse version in his own studio!
I saw a documentary with Stephen Tyler in the studio, and he took your third way a bit further. He would sing each line once, tell the sound guy to play it back, and only once he was happy with it did he go on to the next. Elton John may despise working that way, but Tyler's no slouch. Don't be shy about making sure it's right.
Yes, it's called "punching in" & it's way more efficient & less time consuming then 5 diff takes. Bc you're able to clean up, as you go. Then stack your vocals on notes & words that you want to stand out. But whatever works for you as a vocalist. Different methods are ok, long as you created a fire song! Continue to do that thing that works for you.
this is the thing, sing it well once, then listen and make choices about how things worked or didn't. The key to it is listening and figuring out how what in your head translated, because vocals are a performance but also a creative aspect, and you don't know what works until you actually hear it. So listen after the first take that's a keeper.
Great video! - the limitless options of digital made us afraid to commit to a performance and usually lose the authentic emotion and dynamics.
Option 3 is the way we used to do it with tape and there were 2 other golden things from that approach (beyond the sound of tape):
1 - imperfections and happy accidents that on repeated listens grow to become your favourite part of the take
2 - red light adrenaline - knowing you were over-writing the last take and likely recording 'THE take' seemed to encourage a little more magic to come out - sing it like you really mean it
I'm going back to the tape mindset - thanks!
Great video Joe! It's worth mentioning although I hope it's common sense to do a thorough vocal warm up, stay plenty hydrated and remember to take breaks often... doing 5 takes IMO is too many, leave it down to 3 at most. If you can't get a good comp by 3 then doing 2 more won't really help you. Mixing will always take much longer than the vocal takes but obviously focus on delivering that perfect performance each time and a lot of the comping work becomes simpler. For me comping each part of the song often comes across lacking emotion and unnatural. What ever sounds good, is good though. Have fun and stay healthy singers
I agree it can be exhausting and drive you nuts going through it over and over.. great video!
Approach 3 is how I’ve done things from the start when producing my own tunes! It’s fast, easy, and efficient. I wish I could convince vocalists to do this more often, spending hours and hours on ONLY lead vocals for one song is not a vibe….
Great insight. Because of my ridiculous computer fan noises i switched to a seperate audio recorder to get the job done which prevents me from that technique, but i will look into it again
I usually do a combination your first two approaches. We do one (or two at most) full takes, sit in the room with the singer and decide what we like and don't like, then go punch those specific spots that we want to tidy up
Yep, my favorite approach as well. Have a bigger picture, then perfect the details in retrospect.
I somehow missed this video a year ago when you first published it... most likely because I'm not a singer, so skipped it for that reason. After watching it now, however, I can see that your points hold true for ANY instrument... be that a vocal, a guitar, or whatever. What you described in the first and second methods is exactly what I was going through recording solo guitar. I was doing 7 or 8 takes, then had to listen to them over and over again, trying to find the small bits to repair my comp. I found myself reviewing takes far more than actually recording ... I love your third technique of "fixing it right then and there". Great idea! I'm going to give that a try. Thanks Joe!
It’s a method we’ve used for decades (yes, before digital). I will say though, I have found that it works better for singers that have experience in a studio. For newbies, it can seem a bit choppy and may be difficult to get back into the groove as they’re used to just singing the whole song.
I'm new to home recording and glad I found your channel. I've been scouring TH-cam for instructional videos and so far your style is my favourite. I suspect I'll signing up for one of your courses. Thank you for the clear and concise explanations.
I use all three methods. I'll usually tackle sections at a time, record 2-3 takes to get warmed up and then get a solid 2-3 takes after the warmup and choose the best one as the main take. Then i'll either find a better line from an alternate, or punch in if there are no better lines. it's quick and easy.
I really appreciate the way you broke things down in this video. One of the things I always struggle with when getting into something new is wrapping my head around what work-flow can look like. Obviously everyone is going to do thing differently, but not all content creators do a good job of demonstrating their process.
This is exactly how my songwriting partner and I record vocals as well. It really allows you to pay attention to nuance, rather than getting caught up in having to nail the song as a whole.
I’ve always done it this way. Having a full breath for every vocal line puts such power in the song. I’ll also use the extra takes for effects tracks.
It's - unlike your other vids and ideas - an unsmart idea that I'd never go with. Here's why: If you do sing through the whole song at once in several takes you might suddenly come up with a phrasing of the melody that you'd never sung before. A whole new idea that makes the whole song just THAT much better - and might even give it a special something, even if it was just one note sung differently. This is the magic that can happen in the studio during recording. You're cutting yourself off of this great unique chance by just focusing on time efficiency. I'd rather focus on quality every time. And I think time is for most things in life the most important ingredient of them all. :) And I am convinced that music is not mathematics where you'll have a definitive right or wrong. So allow yourself for the unexpected to happen, even if it only happens once ever so often. It is always worth the time. 😊
I’d be the devils advocate and say that some artists would feel like it kills the vibe to have you doing production stuff during a recording session, but it would make it easier on the engineer/producer. I also feel like part of my job as an engineer is to preserve the energy of the artist to get the best performance and to me, that means making them wait as little as possible for me to perform engineering/producing tasks.
This is by far the best way to record. From vocals (lead or backing) to any instrument. Keep inspiration and fun flowing, work quickly through the song, capture the atmosphere of the moment. If you don't like the track in the end or three days later you simply have to redo it. And I usually do not keep more than one back up take for surgical editing if needed. In the end I may end up with a couple of slightly different but finished versions of the track. Some may even be "pre production" tracks and it has happened that I wanted to use it as the final one. Training makes you better 🙂
Combination of all 3 for me.
As much as I'd prefer to exclusively use method 3, I will always get a few full vocal takes that I use to understand exactly what the singer is naturally doing in certain sections, as some singers sing completely differently when they sing the song in sections! It's like they don't actually know how to sing the song unless it's from start to finish (which kind of makes sense) and breaking it up can often take longer than sifting through the full takes. The full takes can sometimes be the best takes too.
Worst I had was sifting through 106 different vocal takes to ultimately use the first take we did.. I literally wanted to die! 😅
Great video! I totally agree with your approach to this in most situations. What I think I would add, would be to stress the idea of recording all verses at once, then all choruses at once, the breaks and backups after. Mic placement and the vocalist's attitude (among many other things) can change greatly from verse to chorus and back. Recording their “sound” as standalone sections is not only important for work flow, but it adds continuity for the feeling of the song as a whole.
The second thing is: while I love destructive recording, is there maybe a way to back up the original take in case you simply don't get a better take?
Everytime Joe uploads a video titled "Don't do this like that", I already know I'm doing it wrong...
Hey !!! .. love the last approach ... Saves a ton of time, energy and does not break the rhythm of the whole thing. Agile recording technique.. fail early fail fast ensures quick progress ❤❤❤
Reminds me of recording with my first band in the late 90’s. We had to be SOLID, because we were lucky to get two takes in a pro studio, since we were on the clock and fronting the bill. $1000/day back then. You talk about your voice being tired - tracking a ten song album in one day was tough! We were definitely good at discerning what sounded human and what sounded bad. And sometimes, you just had to let stuff go. And editing? Yeah right, you better just get it right kid! Lol
Ya, at $100/hr, you didn't screw around picking things out in the mixing room!
I started doing this more on guitar as well. I’ll focus on nailing the rhythm parts, first, then punch in the fills after. Keeps it simple, fun, and helps combat ear fatigue…or just getting tired of the song.
Fun fact: I recorded a new song of mine, using the very first take. It was there as a demo track, but many many takes later I realized the first one was the most natural one. Damn!
That happens a lot.
Bruce Swedien and Michael Jackson allegedly attempted 91 different mixes of "Billie Jean." The version we all know is mix #2.
I and the band recorded one song a day in a professional studio, we recorded for 10 days. We'd start with the drums first in the morning, then the guitar recording, with lots of layers and embellishments, then we'd go to lunch, then back to the studio to record the bass guitar and the last vocals, 4 times the full song and twice the embellishments and that's it .
I love how you started singing on your way before punching in a new take as it plays back. A lot of new artists usually wait until that specific phrase is needed and don’t understand that it will sound less natural. I always suggest to sing along as I capture what we intend to record.
This guys knows it 👌
Good advice! Also advantage of this method is that you learn more and improve your singing.
Oh this is incredible! It seems like a really simple and right way. If you're someone who records, mixes and produces your own songs. It's really tiring to work on dozens of vocal tracks on top of all that. Maybe this is the best solution and I will try it as soon as possible!
I also want to ask something. Usually the first quick demo recording I get for a song (when I'm getting the idea of the song) sounds more natural and pleasant than the professional recordings I get for some reason. What do you think is the reason for this and how can I solve it?
I think it’s the pressure to get it perfect, when you’re not overthinking it comes out better cause it Happens to me always
@@WallyHoakThis. It’s also possible you got attached to and used to the demo version, and any deviation seems wrong.
A new song is a live free entity. It has no history to keep it on a set path.
Ive tried to recreate the first recording of a new song and FAIL EVERY TIME!!
Dont sweat over it. To many factors to replicate. We as humans are continually evolving too so NEVER the same every day.
Just allow the new recording to have a life of its own making.
Relax and enjoy.
Now ive got to get back to bending a recording to my will 😠
😂🤣
That is so true also in my case! I sometimes listen to first demo recordings I made on the old phone answer machine or on the cell-phone, just add a bit of global delay to them, and there's something interesting in there that I sadly don't see replicated in the "produced" version... some kind of a subtle contained-but-felt excitement...
I've been doing home recording for a few years now and that's how I've always done mine.
I like to capture flaws if they can make a certain part of the song sound good. I just do as little takes as possible and practice beforehand so I can get great takes every time. So however it comes out is how it comes out and I roll with it because 98% of the time, nobody's gonna notice.
The only thing I do a little bit different but it probably doesn't differ that much is blanking out the part I didn't like, setting up a new layer so I can try to do that one part better without recording over or punching in the existing layer.
Awesome vid though, keep it up man!
I guess the extent of takes depends on the person. For me personally, I am not an amazing vocalist so I feel I need to track various layers and really take the time comping the best sections. It can often take 6 or 7 takes of a verse to feel warmed up. Unfortunately not all of us are Jonny Craig
Thanks for sharing! So much better. I get such ear fatigue listening over and over, and drift off and can't remember what I have already listened to... 🤦🏻♀️
“Just because you have 5 takes doesn’t mean you have a good one in there”
*flashbacks to my early days*
Excellent approach! I LOVE IT! I'll implement that into my recordings! I was one of those vocalists who did multiple takes, comped and then moved on to the next song(s). Time consuming to say the least. I LOVE this approach much better, thank you! Downloading your checklist now. Again, thank you.
The beautiful thing is, you do this long enough and you get better and good enough that you won't need to comp or do much in the mix. And you'll be a better producer too. The trick is to just work more than you drink.
😂😂
Love punching in, great video!
#3 is the way I like to fix a vocal track.
I find the first take I do is usually fresh and relaxed and usually winds up being the take I keep.
But then I have to go back and fix mistakes or timing issues is a section. I'll have a second track set up and then record the bad take over and then cut and paste the new fixed version. I always do a bar or two ahead of the bad section to get back in the flow.
If you try to just punch it in right away, it never works for me.
Sometimes by the end, I have enough sections copied and pasted it looks like building blocks in a track lol
Singing a track over and over makes it lose something, that relaxed feeling, and while it might sound perfect, I think it loses a bit of the magic.
Thanks Joe, it's nice to know I've been unknowingly doing it right(at least verified it's another way to do it).
I like your third method. Definitely more efficient to start with a close to great take with a a couple fixes. Nice! I've been going with the comp approach and as you shared, you end up starting your edit with a trailer full of takes that you you have to sort through!
I think singers sometimes feel like there needs to be vocal magic in every bar, but what there actually needs to be is continuity in the phrasing and storytelling of each verse. And they don't understand, you pretty much lose that as soon as you comp 5 different takes.
With your method, you're gonna end up with a performance of the song, not 60 separate vocal samples, and that's a much better way to go.
It really depends. I've worked with a singer who was so absolutely exact on every take that, when it came to double-tracking, you could barely tell. I had to ask her to change her approach a little so the different layers would be different enough that they'd sound multilayered. I've found sometimes if it's a relaxed melody for you to sing, you'll do it very similarly every time. If it's more expressive, and you might be trying a different thing every time, then… yeah.
I can see how the third approach might work best if you are recording your own vocals but I think it would come with challenges if you are an engineer working with a vocalist.
In my experience, the first approach definitely yields the best results and is the most time efficient. But there are caveats… 1) Don’t kick the editing can down the road, you should comp in consultation the vocalist immediately after they have finished singing, and 2) You simply cannot efficiently comp more than 3 takes. If the singer is just warming up in the 3rd take then do 5 takes but ignore the first 2 while comping.
Each take you add into the comping process after the 3rd take, makes that process exponentially more painstaking. The mental processing involved with comparing each vocal phrase across 5 takes for a 3-4 minute song is HUGE. Comparing vocal phrases across 3 takes is far less demanding as you can almost immediately eliminate one and be left with a coin flip, or eliminate 2 and be left with no choice to make at all!
I find most singers will sing every phrase in a song perfectly at least once within 3 takes. I like to get them to do that as quickly as possible so they don’t have time to start overthinking things or work too hard and burn out. Once that is done, I spend 20-30 minutes finding the gold from each take in consultation with the vocalist, while they sip on a cup of tea with their feet up. At this point, 95% of the time you have a perfect take. The other 5% of the time, you have 95% of a perfect take. Use targeted punch in’s to fix the 5%.
I reeeeeally like how time-efficient this is and it's also absolutely true, you can have 50 takes and still make the same "mistake", BUT my problem with this new approach is: I record my vocals standing up and do the editing sitting down (at my desk). And every time I would sit down and stand up again the slight change in angle or distance to the mic makes it sound slightly (but still too) different... 🤔🤔
Try putting markings or something that would identify how far away to stand or have your face. To try and mimick the same position/angle every time. It's easier said than done but it's something that can help.
Got my motorized sit-stand-desk for 200 bucks off Amazon because I suffered from the same thing, helps me a lot
@@michaelandersonfinance Nice idea!!
Method One is what I did back when I used GarageBand. Shortly after I switched to using (mostly) Logic Pro, I found a workflow a lot more similar to Method Three. And bringing a song from concept to completion is a _much_ shorter journey now.
OK, I'm old and started recording on tape. I always do full vocal takes with the idea that it's a keeper take. The only difference since the computer age is I often record a safety take, or maybe 2 in case there's something weird and unforseen that comes up after the tracking is done or I just want another option. I would nevr record 5 takes of ANYthing with the idea that I would come back and Frankenstein the thing together at a later date.If you're working on your own, without a producer or engineer or other bandmates in a control room to give you feedback, it's better to give yourself options, but you should NEVER approach ANY take as if it wasn't the keeper. That's a recipe for soulless, paint-by-number music that no one will ever connect to.
I honestly had no idea that people who were raised on digital recording used the DAW as a crutch in this way. SIng the song!!! Don't try and make life easy on yourself. Rock isn't easy!
Thanks for the tip Joe. I use the third approach. Sometimes I'll only have lyric outlines and will work a melody and words as I do each section. I personally like the random stuff that happens when I'm working, and will fine tune as I go. I've got a short attention span and sometimes change melodies, or try to articulate the words in interesting ways from verse to verse, although I try to keep a consistency with the choruses. As a note, when singing my tunes just me and guitar, I always sing them a little different. There is definitely nothing like being in the moment, and recording is about capturing that moment. Cheers.
You still gotta get your edits done while the singer's there. All the decisions have to be right, no options. No sub
This might sound very random, but many years ago I was subscribed to your newsletter about home recording. I learned so much from that and still have a lot of those emails in a separate folder. I was looking up a couple of videos on home recording equipment and tips and I stumbled upon you again after so many years. Great to see you're on here! And coincidentally, my approach to recording vocals is pretty much the same as yours.
total gamechanger, thank you so much! no idea why i've never tried doing it like this. I always end up with too many takes and still somehow none of them are right - even recording myself at home, it's still hard to get back into the zone to rerecord days later if I'm editing (street noise / neighbors / taking time to do my warmups etc); I'm so excited to try this. thank you!
also your voice is beautiful!
Ive never utilized the layer system like that in method 1. Wow. So much more useful than creating individual tracks for each take. Thanks, Joe!
The "punch in" technique you describe is actually what I do with my instrumental tracks. It's so much easier to record one solid playthrough and then just go back and spot record over rough patches with a pre-roll. The playlist feature is a neat thing to have, but you're absolutely right in that I find myself just putting in a lot more work every time I try making use of it.
this is so validating---I've basically out of necessity had to approach recording my own vocals this way because of how limited the "quiet" time in my space is (tiny apartment, noisy street). As someone who used to sing on stage a lot I used to feel like a phony doing it this way, but then I realized, like you mentioned, this is how session musicians do it, they carefully craft an excellent take. And then get on with their lives instead of agonizing over different takes!
Fantastic, that's pretty much my method. I come from the olden days of tape. If you were lucky you'd have two tracks when it came to recording lead vocal. Dropping in was more high stakes because when you're in record you're losing something. I think sometimes having the flexibility of modern digital recording makes the process harder because you don't have to commit as early in the process.
The last approach, for me, singing and recording/producing, seems way better! Thank you!
this is why I switched from S1 to Cubase. Cubase has a better Lanes handling. Comping tracks and Punch In/Out is so fast and easy. I do a lot of recordings with artists.
Cubase is really amazing!
There are ways to fix vocals without punching in and out. In other news, I like single, complete takes on vocals. There's an emotional unity that gets lost with too much cutting. Instruments...yeah...I manipulate the hell out those recordings. Stretching or shortening notes or adjusting volume of individual notes is essential sometimes.
It was great to realize that my approach is not that far off from yours. It was a doozy finding a workflow with recording vocals, but I guess it just gets easier with time. Then you can focus solely on your creativity.
I've done all three ways and I always do the third way for my own albums and for anyone who sings well. I know what I want to sound like and when it feels right, it feels right. Certain places I record two or three tracks for the same part if I want options. Also, you need more than one take for layering (doubles of the lead, for example). No matter what, I listen carefully and make the changes in the singing that I need to make as I record.
The whole comping thing I use for singers who have trouble making the corrections. They may get the phrasing or dynamics, but have a hard time on timing and pitch. In that case, I record tons of takes, give tips, punch in where we need and when we have good takes, I comp and then use Melodyne to edit the pitch and timing (I manually make partial adjustments to only choice notes and keep it as natural as possible/keep the sliding and cut to only adjust areas). I use my ear to determine if the intervals feel good as true intervals don't conform perfectly to an equal temperament grid. Also, a flat note might be just right and intentional (bluesy/jazzy sound).
The result is that they sound way better than they could possibily sound without the magic of production. They then have a new reference for the voice they can develop and will have learned the techniques they need to accomplish that through the process (dynamics, register transitions, mic technique, stylization, etcetera).
For good singers and my own albums, I warm up the song, try to get into the pocket and find the tone, dynamics and inspiration I need and then often record section by section until it's just right. If I have doubts, I re-record those parts or punch in where needed. Thats more how music was recorded before we had software.
There are many songs where I ended up singing all the way through in one take because of the preparation. I had already worked out everything, knew the sound I wanted and how to get there, recorded warm up takes until it clicked and then it just happened. It's like Bonnie Raitt's "I Can't Make You Love Me" which she did in one take. Sometimes you capture the inspiration and genuine emotion in one take, and anything else would be inferior.
I always watch videos on music production and am pleasantly surprised that I know and use the techniques others have also discovered.
Agreed
That third way is the only way I’ve known to record my (rap) vocals. I want the line to be the way I want it before I move on to the next line. Less to do later. I was nervous to hear your 3 ways as I’m amateurish with vocals so I was hoping I wasn’t making it harder on myself but nice to hear I’ve been making it easier on myself ha. Great vid.
Wasn't expecting a lot for some reason..this just popped up but I am glad I watched it all. Changing the way I record from now on. Thanks and good video.
This is what I do and it moves quick and smooth. Thanks for the demo.
I will never do methods 1 and 2 again. Just did a mix of those methods for a friend's EP and the amount of work to comp was crazy, but the thing that hurt the most was I fell to the temptation to stop active listening while he and his singers were recording. Sooooo, I didn't catch what needed fixing before they were gone. When all the takes have the same problem you're left with a much harder fix. Great stuff, Joe!
Method 1 is a straight no go for me for reasons you said.
3 has its merits but number 2 has merits that you never mentioned.
1) if you are wanting to do natural doubles without using a plugin or daw techniques to replicate them then 2 is a good method as the 2nd and 3rd best takes can be used as the doubles.
2) When you go from one section of a song straight to another you will have to adjust some combination of words, vocal technique, timing and melody, thus when you loop record several takes for a particular section it allows you to get in a flow with the melody and vocal skill set required for that section.
If you can't trust yourself to not feel the need that you have to audition every single take from lots even if the first one sounds perfect then yes 3 is a good choice against stubborn OCD otherwise for the points mentioned above I'd say a combination of 2 & 3 are best.
This was legitimately eye opening, I'm excited to try this!
Edit: Have since watched a few more videos from you. Subscriber well-earned, you have so many useful tips!
This is so useful! It keeps the process flowing with less burnout. Now I just need to practice and get better "punching in". Back to the recording class. Thanks Joe!
Good stuff. One thing I'll do to help the punch-ins be a bit more organic/musical is to start singing/recording a little sooner than the punch-in target...so I'm not vocally idle until the punch-in moment...so when the play/record cursor gets to the spot, I'm already in gear and rolling vocally with the phrase.
What you’re basically doing is going back to pre digital days when decisions had to be made going to tape. I still work like this myself! Chopping up each track with excessive punching in tends to ruin the feeling for me. So I generally get a line or two of a verse recorded in one take. Once in a while I’ll later hear something I don’t like in a chorus and will copy and paste a word or two from a better chorus. I don’t like doing it as if feels like cheating somehow, but it’s often more effective than resigning on a different day. Great video!
I like Joe on studio one he’s cool as he never judge’s and he’s always very polite and is always really helpful 💯👍✌️😎
I do the same thing when recording my vocals, and for the same reasons! Have been using method 3 since I started recording, it saves so much time and causes less strain on my voice.
Additionally, as my songs often require more than one vocal track (I'll sometimes double or triple track vocals for a more "full" and slightly phased sound, as well as adding vocal harmonies which are also double tracked), a song of mine may need up to 8 vocal tracks. With methods 1 or 2, it would mean recording 40 vocal takes! With a triple tracked lead vocal, 3 takes is all I need, then I centre the best one, and pan the other two left and right, maybe needing minor corrections here and there, but overall saving a lot of time and energy
I basically do the same thing. But, typically I have them double it, for my benefit as a mixer. I use it to make the vocal thicker, or if later I find a issue I like having it. Plus other reasons. Add delays, or other effects.
Greatly appreciate this advice. I've been doing something kinda similar but now understand the process better.
What I like about the 3rd approach is that you have a solid take to reference and match. Stops you from having to comp together 5 takes for a verse that don't match at all expression-wise.
I like your favored method, as it is very similar to old-school punch-ins to tape when tracks were scarce. In those days, you were lucky to have two tracks dedicated to a vocal take and comping was a chore.
hmmmm, I'm definitely the second approach as those other takes that wasn't necessarily a solid take, i put them as either a layer vocals (for chorus or ear candy a section), others are for harmonies and ad libs...Cool video!!
i prefer (after the warm-up) to have the singer sing the whole song once, and then punch in. seems more natural to me than doing it bit by bit.
I always go in to recording a project thinking I 'need' to do the mutiple takes then comp approach, but yeah, the ones that turn out good have tended to be when I just got in front of the mic with the right mindset and physical preparation/skills that I needed to land a solid take into which I could put all that fresh inspired energy, and just nip and tuck a couple details later on. The projects that I comp otoh tend to end up overwrought feeling and take much, much longer, usually not even making it near completion. And doing multiple takes doesn't work to make up for subpar performances because as you say, the same mistakes just get repeated. It's good to see someone lay out the differences in these approaches because I've not really formally considered it before.
The natural continuity and dynamic arc that a singer achieves by singing through the whole track makes the vocal sound more natural. Do five takes then comp the track - gives the singer a little break - then get the singer to redo any parts that need correcting.
The problem with getting the vocalist to sing part by part means that the more they sing the same part - verse then bridge then chorus - over and over potentially creates tension and loses the natural cadence, dynamic and emotion that makes for a great performance.
I would only ever use the method proposed if the person singing is not that experienced or just not that good. Sometimes an artist has a great timbre but not so great intonation and in that situation it’s probably ok to do each part bit by bit.
the last way you you recommended is the best and it is the old when I did it in on 2" tape. Ir was studio standard and you never go against studio standard. Good video. Thanks for reaffirming my way of doing vocals. Cheers B
This time last year I did a Session vocal for a KB player I know who was finishing a Degree in Music Production at Visconti Studios in London, all the gear in there is analogue, so 24 track tapes, which is very very expensive, I'm not a professional singer, the issue my friend had, was the Pro's he did know couldn't get a good whole take, I'm mid 50's, back in the day, this was how we did things, I did 4 takes, job done, it was quite a demanding Rock song, so, it wouldnt have been fun to sing it all day, after each take I got the playback, gave me the cues for how to change my delivery, so by the last take, had it down, apparently the other Singers were stressed by the whole analogue process. Tony Visconti, is kind of a big deal in Music Production, for those who dont know, there is still a demand for Analogue Engineers to remaster, an interesting experience and took me back.
Thanks for the advice. I'm my own producer and a one man band, so it helps not wearing myself out so much to have this perspective on how to help myself at the part i hate and tires me the most, which is recording vocals
I use something similar to your technique for recording audiobooks. Split the reading script into paragraphs (or indeed sentences), and record them one at a time, retaking each small segment as needed.
It's always good to find a pro has come up with the same idea as me. Means my idea is probably a good one.