I think God in His wisdom raises up men of different attributes and abilities to reach people where they are, but once they are Orthodox it’s time to grow slowly and steady. Love our neighbors as ourselves.
A few words on St. Cyprian of Carthage and his ecclesiology: At 5:54 Met. Jonah says, “Now, there’s another argument that was earlier, by Cyprian of Carthage who basically said that outside the Church there is undifferentiated darkness. The Church does not recognize that. And council after council after council has refused to recognize the argument of Cyprian of Carthage.” The phrase “undifferentiated darkness” is first used not by St. Cyprian but by Fr. John Erickson and later by Fr. Thomas Hopko, as far as I can tell. To say that St. Cyprian believed such a thing is a caricature of his understanding. While St. Cyprian speaks clearly about there being no salvation and no mysteries outside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, it is a step further to conclude that everything outside the Church is equally devoid of degrees of truth and goodness. Surely, St. Cyprian is not so naive to think that some men are more ready to repent and embrace the gospel than others, and yet still those better prepared are “undifferentiated” from those less prepared. Without clear evidence, this seems to me a sweeping accusation that need not be made. At 22:20 Met. Jonah says, “The biggest problem with Cyprianic ecclesiology is it’s too much of a rational reduction. It’s black and white thinking. We don’t deal in black and white thinking. We’re not dualists.” For a supposed black and white thinker, does the following from St. Cyprian not show his understanding that ultimately the salvation of all is in God’s hands, and salvation may even be possible despite not following Christ’s command to “baptize all”? “But someone says, “What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism?’ The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep. Nevertheless it does not follow that, because there was error at one time, there must always be error; since it is more fitting for wise and God-fearing men, gladly and without delay to obey the truth when laid open and perceived, than pertinaciously and obstinately to struggle against brethren and fellow-priests on behalf of heretics.” -St. Cyprian, Epistle 72 to Jubaianus. At 48:01 Met. Jonah says, “Cyprian was accepted by the Church as a saint and some of his theology was accepted, some of it was rejected.” Canon 2 of Trullo ratified the canon of Carthage 258 which was headed by St. Cyprian. Despite what some have put forth, such as the author of the “Sacramental Rigourism” article that I believe Met. Jonah is referring to at one point in this video, this canon was ratified by Trullo not in order for it to remain only authoritative in Africa, but rather to be authoritative universally just like the other canons that were previously authoritative only locally, such as Carthage 419. The language about Carthage 258 holding sway in Africa does not mean it is meant to always and forever only hold sway in Africa, but that the canon of Carthage 258 was the canon which held sway in those places, and Trullo now makes that canon not only local but ecumenical. Canon 2 of Trullo states: “…the canon promulgated by Cyprian… which alone held sway in the places of the aforesaid presidents, in accordance with the custom handed down to them…” A much more consistent reading is to assume that Carthage 258 and 419 are both made universal, just like the rest of the canons mentions, such as the Apostolic Canons, not that all were made universal by Canon 2 except for one. To say Carthage 258 remained only a canon with local and not universal authority is to say it has no greater authority than the canons and fathers that were passed over in silence, namely the Council of Arles, St. Augustine, and every other Latin council and father. Carthage 258 canon is representative of St. Cyprian’s views, expressing the akrevia (exactitude) of the Church on ecclesiology and the separate but related matter of reception of converts. At the same time, not everything St. Cyprian wrote was ratified by Trullo, nor were all the writings of any other Church Father named in Canon 2, even St. Basil whose writings constitute more ecumenical canons than any other Church Father. Also, in St. Basil we see in his canon 1 allowing for economia, yet commemorating St. Cyprian approvingly, and in his canon 47 referring to economia being exercised in Rome but calling for akrevia (exactitude) regardless of what Rome is doing. Looking at the canons of St. Cyprian and St. Basil, and the Apostolic Canons, we see the same ecclesiology, the same understanding of the boundaries of the Church and that no mysteries exist outside of Her. The only difference between St. Cyprian and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils is a slight difference in application of ecclesiology, with allowance for reception by economia in specific instances based on specific presuppositions, but not the ecclesiology itself. The ecumenical canons allow for economia, even calling for it for specifically named groups of heretics, but the ecclesiology is the same and the specifically named allowances for economia do no damage whatsoever to the ecclesiology. Therefore, to speak of St. Cyprian’s ecclesiology as not being representative of the Church is incorrect, and dishonors those fathers at Trullo who elevated St. Cyprian’s canon to universal authority, seeing it as divinely inspired.
Timothy! Thank you so much for such a thorough response! I’m past my prime intellectual years but it’s wonderful to see all you younger guys defending AKRIVIA as the NORM! I’m assuming your response was easier to write with the OE book on the Reception of the Heterodox close at hand? This grandma will keep spending her days praying for you lay defenders of the Faith! I really hope we meet in Platina next week! If not you really must come see us and meet the new nun in town! 🥰🙏🏻☦️
@@christophjasinski4804 sad but not surprised. We will have help the people in other ways, both in the practical ways Met. Jonah advocated for, and to help show a more faithful understanding of the Church’s dogma and understanding of Herself and those outside Her.
@@timothyhoneycutt3648 also heard the 3rd one. Finally, he mentiones Frs Schmeman and Meyendorff as his teachers. That was interesting. However, I’ll move on.
I appreciate him too for helping me consider Orthodoxy. As a western Christian I ONLY examined things through a rational type of lens. After coming into the church I found he was no longer helpful for me. I had to dispense with him in order to actually start to grow spiritually. It was too much in the head and not in the heart.
@@IAMFISH92 yes I had a similar experience. Now I am under the guidance of a spiritual father within the Orthodox church and you are right about switching from thr reasoning of the mind and the opening of the heart.
@@JayDyer No one claimed that you told anyone not to have a spiritual Father, Jay. You’re always insanely clear that you are NOT A substitute for a spiritual father. What we are trying to say is that your talks helped us understand the apologetic arguments for the case of Orthodoxy, but after having grasped them and been intellectually convinced by them we realized we needed to focus less on the polemics and more on prayer, fasting, confession, the services, etc. It’s ok for people to express their opinions and experiences on TH-cam. You do it all the time.
@@JayDyer you have done nothing my dear brother. You actually encouraged me to seek guidance from a spiritual father which I did even though I have to travel. 🙂 You never once said to ignore the heart. Your content is definitely for the intellect. Just so you know. Your channel is a blessing and I don't think you are mean. 🙂 My library is full of all of your recommendations.
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Jay has helped "love me into the kingdom" by exposing the errors and false presuppositions i have been believing in protestantism. I never called in but i have learned slowly over time through all his videos and i am grateful to God for the role he had in my journey.
I really appreciate this discussion. Today many perhaps most people have lost or never been taught the ability to calmly discuss variations in ideas without taking disagreement as a personal attack. Typically, factual knowledge is shallow, but if you can insult someone into silence you win seems to be the tactic. Obviously we cannot go back to a time when people were told "just be nice to everyone and let someone else do the thinking." The old saying that Protestantism made everyone a pope is true, and that makes theological discussion unavoidable. Orthodox people awakening from an inability to know why they believe what they believe is a good thing. The cyber folks are filling a hunger in people which is not satisfied by the 15-minute homily once a week. Excellent to have Metr. Jonah's instruction.
I was brought to orthodoxy by the blessing of God and the prayers of our blessed theotokos and the saints. Indeed it was God who gave increase. But it was through people like Jay Dyer and David Erhan and Craig truglia and Father Josiah Trenham and Kyle orthodox that the seed was planted in my heart. Let us pray for their well being.
Precisely. I’m sure Jay Dyer would prefer having converted thousands of people to the true faith to being considered the worlds nicest Christian. And honestly, if people are aspiring to the latter they are totally misguided.
5:35 if you accept the sacraments of other "churches" then why should anyone bother converting? Preference in worship style? If they have the eucharist, which in our preparation manual is called the chief sacrament around which church life revolves, then what do they lack that they must find in orthodoxy?
Excellent question. How it was explained to me, in those other churches they do have the appearance of the Sacraments (marriage, for example,) but not the essence; so when they convert to Orthodoxy, this appearance becomes filled with the previously missing essence, and there is no need to repeat the appearance. Thirty years later, I am still not sure if I am convinced, but such was the explanation.
I never became a diehard Jay Dyer fan. I have watched a few of his shows which are fascinating with regard to what we think of as "Popular Culture" but is in fact the beast system. I see his value in bringing the cohort of souls who are waking up to the reality that we indeed live in the beast system that awaits it's final Anti-Christ and who are completely unchurched or have nearly zero grounding in Trinitarian Christian orthodoxy and history. I don't see him as a catechist but as a kind of town cryer - Jay Dyer the Town Cryer calling on us to wake up to the inferno that is consuming our world and to see that there is another reality; the Truth of Christ. I have seen him time and again tell his heterodox viewers to go an Orthodox Church and talk to a priest to learn more and begin their journey. The Holy Spirit can certainly use individuals like this to beckon towards the Truth even if such an individual is flawed in his approach for some souls, it's there for the souls who needed him. God alone knows. Since we don't know and cannot limit where the Holy Spirit can move and operate, we cannot say He is not working through such individuals as Jay Dyer.
Father, thank you so much for this video. I am very thankful to Jay Dyer and his work because he brings so many people to the Orthodox Church. I like to see Jay as a bridge between the two worlds. He is really effective at attracting young people and showing them that there's more than what they've been taught The challenge for these converts, is going deeper once they actually join the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, a lot of people get stuck in being "based" or in this antagonistic mode that you're talking about and that's not what Orthodoxy is. To Jay's credit, he always points people to the clergy and I think it's tough for him because since he is in the public square all his faults are there for people to see and people also get stuck in criticizing him instead of working on their own theosis. Thank you for discussing these subjects in such a loving and thoughtful way, it's super refreshing. God bless you.
Thank you Vladyka! I've noticed this valuation of internet Orthodox based on their articulateness, or their level of education or reading, ability to recall facts etc. as if this was the highest virtue or some how indicative of true spirituality . But I'm reminded of St. Paul's exhortation, "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing." Education, articulateness, intelligence are all great things, but we should be following above all those who exemplify love, holiness of life and true prayer.
One of the few Orthodox comments in the comment section, unfortunately. Writing just to encourage you to continue on this path. The true Faith is precious beyond everything in this world and not worth losing for any feeling of camaraderie or anything else
It seems like people from two sides of a different argument are reading into this video meaning that Metropolitan Jonah did not intend. Context is important.
Thank you so much for this video. I have been inquiring for quite some time now and these videos really help me. Other online content is very useful but these videos seem better for inquirers and catechumens. It seems that some of the issues talked about by others online can be very confusing for people uninitiated in the Church. I’ve grown up in a Calvary Chapel church with my dad as the pastor, so it is very hard for me to realize things with evangelical Christianity are wrong. I think this video presents the best approach to those outside of Orthodoxy, and many others in the Church seem to have this mind set but online it isn’t represented that much. I am in the process of corresponding with the priest at my local parish (Kimisis Tis Theotokou Greek Orthodox Church in the Hamptons) so I can become a catechumen. This is hard for me since it means potential conflict with my family and it would be weird for me to just stop going to my church. It gets very difficult because I live in the parsonage and the church is right across the street. The orthodox parish is about 20 min away which isn’t so bad. I have faith that God will lead me to Orthodoxy, but I must be humble. It is also very hard because of my mental illnesses. Any advice and prayers would be much appreciated, thank you and God bless you
Glory to Jesus Christ that thousands of souls have entered the Ark of Salvation through videos and podcasts! May we all stand on the right of God with the sheep. Amen
I came to Orthodoxy when I realized the Bible was written in Greek, so the Greek traditions are probably the way to go. Then I learned what it was really all about, and I was baptized a year ago.
@@namapalsu2364 Move to the village of Maаlоula in Syria where that language is still spoken? Luckily, there is a sizable Orthodox parish there, and even a convent of St. Thekla.
Bless, your Eminence! With all due respect, I disagree with your position. St. Cyprian’s ecclesiology, as taught in the Canon of the Council held in 258 AD at Carthage, as well as Canon 66 (uncorrupted Greek text numbering) of the 419 AD Council held in Carthage, were both embraced and ratified by Canon 2 of the 5-6th Ecumenical Council of Trullo and Canon 1 of the 7th Ecumenical Council. This ecclesiology is also taught explicitly in Apostolic Canons 46 and 47, and Canons 1 and 47 of St. Basil the Great, which were all embraced and ratified by both the 5-6th Ecumenical Council and the 7th Ecumenical Council in Canon 1 as well. “When reviewing the teachings of other saints and Fathers on the topic of the reception of the heterodox and the boundaries of the Church, if we find some saints who seemingly contradict the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils on these topics, we should overlook such errors and only hold firmly to those teachings which the Ecumenical Councils have ratified and established as God-inspired and unshakeable” (‘On the Reception of the Heterodox: The Patristic Consensus and Criteria’, pg. 119). Kissing your right hand, Maximos
Yeah, without Jay Dyer and Craig Truglia, I would have passed on Orthodoxy as just another Christian denomination that can't properly account for the complexity of doctrine as its contained in the Bible. Listening to those guys debate demonstrated how many of my previous assumptions didn't make any sense. Very grateful for them.
I think rather than berating this or that commentator or critiquing their style of argument or evangelism (understanding that we can’t be stupid or harsh in outreach) we instead focus on our parishes being welcoming. My wife and I visited a well known GOARCH church while we were both LCMS Lutherans, and were looked upon as lepers (no Greek no welcome) except by the priest. Never set foot in there again, but. I became Orthodox via an OCA parish only ten miles away from the GOARCH church. Totally different reception. Been blessed to be an Orthodox Christian since 2016; my wife is still LCMS, but has been amazingly supportive of me in my journey home. Pray she crosses over.
“It’s really critical, it’s essential, that we move away from antagonistic, aggressive arguments about the Faith.” Thank you, Vladyka, for having enough love for us and courage to say this to us 🙏🏼
The problem with this is that the past century of avoiding antagonistic, aggressive arguments has largely been ineffective at bringing people to Christ. Moreover, Christ was incredibly antagonistic and aggressive toward the Pharisees and Saducees. I don't necessarily have an opinion regarding Jay Dyer and the other Orthobros because I never listened to them much during my conversion from atheism to Orthodoxy, but there is really no argument against how effective "aggressive and antagonistic" rhetoric is at bringing people to Christ in today's degenerate, nihilistic society.
@@noicemanDid Christ spend more time debating those who didn't want to listen or showing the fruits of the spirit and teaching those who came to Him to listen?
Along with the scriptures, church fathers and some other books, The Lord has used online content from people like Jay Dyer, Orthodox Christian Theology, (Craig T.), Fr. Peter Heers and Fr. Josiah Trenham to show me the heterodoxy of the evangelical paradigm I lived in for 27 years. And of course helped me become convinced or Orthodoxy. I will be forever grateful for their efforts to reach people via this incredible missionary tool called the internet. Maybe people like Jay or Fr. Peter aren’t for everybody, but I don’t think they do or say what they do out of hate. A lot of the time the issue it just that we live in a culture that is weak and can’t hear hard truths. I knew intuitively when I became convinced of Orthodoxy that I would need to be baptized. I’m not offended by that and I don’t understand why there are so many representatives of Orthodoxy that are soft on baptism of the heterodox. At least in my case, I “got saved” and said the prayer at a baptist church, was later baptized by a Presbyterian pastor, and my understanding of the gospel centered more on Penal Substitution view of the cross and I definitely didn’t view baptism as regenerative (was only a symbol). I look forward to the day I complete my catechumen process along with my Wife and kids and be baptized in the near future. Perhaps that comment about hating Roman Catholics or Protestants was not directed specifically at Jay or others, but that is sort of the impression that one could get from some comments made in this video. Jay is far from perfect, by his own admission, but when he holds someone’s feet to the fire when they won’t make a cohesive argument or keep avoiding his questions, that is loving truth and exposing false teachings that millions of people are still deceived by. I will agree with what was said near the end of this video about there being the start of a foundation and good things that came from my pre-Orthodox “Christian” experience. I’m thankful that God used that to lead me to this point, but I’m also sad that I spent most of my life lacking so much and even teaching and participating in things that were not from the Lord even though I thought they were. All that to say, evangelicals and Protestants are so used to denominations and what I call ice cream flavor Christianity. If your “loving them into the Church” doesn’t include the message that there is only One church and that there’s ain’t it, then they won’t have much reason to consider renouncing their current flavor of Christianity and embracing something that is very foreign for many of us. I needed that wake up call and I didn’t like it at first, but people’s presentation of truth to me (much of it online), combined with my desire to obey Christ no matter what is what has led me to the Orthodox Church.
This! If Orthodoxy is “just another church”, then there’s no reason to choose that over another “version of the church”. We need THE truth - not just another truth among truths!!
@@Jayce_Alexander what bishop he’s under seems to be in limbo right now through no fault of his own… it’s being worked on! But the Church does have a bit of a history of treating faithful teachers poorly in some instances… I support Fr Peter and pray for his situation to be resolved ASAP
As a convert received into the church by chrismation only a few years ago, I'd like to express my gratitude for this series your eminence, as it's been very spiritually helpful to hear someone of your stature speak on this matter directly as it applies to today's online subcultures, since so many of us recent converts came to the church from the Internet in one way or another🙏. If you decide to continue this series, maybe consider bringing up Fr Seraphim Rose's thoughts on the matter (as expressed in his letters to Fr Alexey Young), since they resonate with what you're saying and a lot of us American converts hold him in high regard. I also found the story of St Genesius of Rome's baptism to be fairly interesting, as it's rather difficult to explain from the rigorist position, if it's something you'd be interested in covering. Fr John Cox's review of Fr Heers' first book (on Vatican II) was also pretty helpful for putting things into perspective with regards to the history of the church's concept of "economy".
The most important thing, is that the whole Tradition, before, during and after Christ’s time on earth, says unanimously, that it’s a fearful thing to enter into the presence of God and that that there is nothing more repulsive to Him than mixing the ways of the “world” with the ways of Heaven. To be correct and behave poorly is not equally as bad as being incorrect, it is infinitely worse, because the extent to which someone is correct in their belief is the extent to which more is expected of them. St James advises that their not be many teachers for that reason. Whoever teaches us by their actions that it is compatible with Orthodoxy to insult, mock and humiliate anyone for any reason, is doing something worse than robbing us of the true Faith, they’re normalizing what the whole Tradition says is the most dangerous thing you could possibly do. The silence of Hierarchs and our personal feelings do nothing to change this. We may agree with such people in everything, in fact, I probably do, but we can’t say we love someone if all we do is defend them from any criticism and encourage them to continue doing what Scripture and the whole Tradition warns against the most. If we truly cared about them, we would be the first to risk being insulted and rejected for the good of possibly saving a brother from a terrifying end. Unfortunately, it isn’t just all that, but hypocrisy, the other thing God went out of His way to make sure we understood he hates more than anything, is also added, when there is constant criticism of everyone who is taken to be misguided, but no criticism no matter how small and undeniably justified is accepted. Not even pointing to the lives and teachings of Christ and the Saints counts for anything. At some point, we are all being put on the spot to either fear and respect God or men, to serve two masters and risk coming to hate the Gospel in order to defend our respect for mortal men or to be clear to ourselves and others about what is obviously compatible and incompatible with the Gospel. “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” If that wasn’t what was at stake, then it wouldn’t be worth writing any of this.
I'm a Protestant, I've been attending a GOC for over a year. Thank you for showing me the difference between rationalisation of God in Theology, and experiencing God through the love of His Church. I haven't attended in a couple of months because I was going to a Greek speaking one then an English only one started up. I'm now stuck between loyalty and understanding. Thank you for the clarity of my knowledge vs truth conundrum.
I’ll always give credit where credit is due. Jay Dyer has been a massive gem to see the legitimacy of Orthodox Christianity. How to defend it and to grow intellectually. I’m pretty sure that Jay would agree that the journey doesn’t begin and end with him. The spiritual battle is after that. I’ll fully agree that one has to be cautious. Like I wouldn’t send my nephew to the “full Jay experience” cuz there are some things that I don’t agree with. But I’ll always have clips to send my nephew of Jay covering certain topics. Like anything online, take what’s gold and filter accordingly for what’s best for someone
There's plenty of Jay's stuff I dislike, but he was instrumental in bring me to the Church, alot of his content is wildly helpful. I understand his approach isn't for everyone, but personally that's what got me, the harsh approach he has resonates with my personality, gentleness never would have tbh. We can find problems in literally everyone, but we're not supposed to hate yhe people, not matter how much we want to.
@@mlladavynauckland1622I am a young high energy man and Jay's approach resonates with me. It's not boring, it's not too polite, he gets to the point, and he's converting people, converted my friend. It's a hands on approach. How else would young people even hear about Orthodoxy?
@@Sainthermanofalaskastaffordva Thank you! Please pray for my lowly American soul if you have time tonight, my name is Herman. I am adding you guys to my prayer list as well.
I also have to say that it takes a lot for me to defend Jay at all, because he insulted one of my monk Fathers on social media and this made me very angry at first. But I have come to love Jay, not because he is caustic or rude, but because he defends the faith with vigor and because he is my spiritual brother. At the end of the day, though, I am not confessing to Jay, I am confessing to Christ in the presence of my Confessor, and when I go through a bad break up, I'm not going to Jay to help me stay alive, I'm going to my monk Father, who gives his life every day to serve the Church, and I know will not abandon me in the wild.
I became Orthodox when I learned that it had apostolic authority going back to the apostles and is THE Church. The only online Orthodox content I saw before converting was an interview with a priest who was laying out all of that information. I think some of the online Orthodox content is not that helpful, but a lot of it certainly is.
I came to Orthodoxy through people like Jay Dyer, Fr. Peter Heers, Orthodox Meme Squad etc. Young people flocking to Orthodoxy in America are coming for very specific reasons. There are many well intentioned clergy who still do not understand.
I think it can be a great tool to gain initial insight but we have to be careful with what we take as full fact and what we take as diverging further into with our own research, etc. As my uncle Fr Steve has put it, while the internet and TH-cam resources can give a lot of insight, if you’re not careful then it can also provide a lot of false things too. And someone who hasn’t even spoken to a priest yet won’t know what’s right or wrong. They take it as right many times and now when they’re catechumens it has to be re taught.
Those specific reasons often have nothing to do with Orthodoxy but rather adopting an ethic (and being seen to be doing so) that is perceived as based. Orthodoxy for a lot of these people (myself included) often just becomes a worldview that can be used to justify one's hatred of the world or to assert your own perceived ethical or intellectual superiority against those around you. Glory to God that people are coming to the church, regardless of intention, but I think it is actually the other way around: it is young American converts who do not understand.
@@mikealrodriguez6907 Well, you’re supposed to hate the world. In terms of stratification, the Bible couldn’t be more explicit about the destructive implications of loving the world in terms of what prevails. If you mean loving the world in the sense of your neighbor, that’s fine. Nevertheless, we’re not called upon to love the beliefs and ideas that our neighbors promulgate. On the contrary, hating what is evil is a biblical commandment, and the great Saints have always inveighed against the unholy precepts that men enthrone as elevating and good. If “young American converts” see things in that way and are less pacified by the dubious notion that this often nebulous idea of compassion elicits, then that might be a positive burst of energy that can lift us above the intense sense of mediocrity which men like Patriarch Bartholomew expressly seek to ossify. I will not soon forget visiting a goarch parish some months ago, and seeing how very few young people attended, and how even fewer young people seemed willing to remain after the liturgy, even momentarily. They had better things to do. And given the sterility of the pushover priest I encountered there, I can’t blame them. But when you saw how highly regarded Bartholomew is there it all started to make perfect sense. Yet in my parish, (holy cross in Linthicum, Maryland), the Church is filled to bursting with “young American converts,” inquirers and catechumens whose desire for Christ is unquestionably earnest. Indeed, there seems to be a correlation between a lack of what you consider piously docile Orthodoxy and an abiding zeal for the faith. A vital and intentional faith has indeed been undermined by the rather uninspiring, passive, safe species of priests and deacons we tend to see at liturgy (His Emminance, Metropolitan Jonah and many others notwithstanding of course). I put much more stock in the zeal of these converts, bereft of their family heirloom solidarity with the faith, than I do in the incessant piety waving that those of your stripe cling to as proof of a more ancient species of holiness. I think in your hands, the church would truly become a relic, attended by senior citizens, and a few of their bored grandchildren.
Jay Dyer has made a huge impact on internet Orthodoxy and people never heard of it came to it because of him and many others ESPECIALLY Fr. Peter Heers.
19:25 "If someone says they are atheist, the reaction is to want to kill them" - respectfully, which so-called orthobro has ever said this? I understand it is said hyperbolically but what is the point? Seems unfair To be clear, Metropolitan Jonah was not the one who said this
He’s a former atheist. Atheists are always fixated on this idea that Christians delight in their damnation, or in their death. And so the fact that he speaks in that language, referring to his former identity, is not surprising. Sadly he seems to have carried much of that attitude into Orthodoxy such that the unapologetically doctrinal are cast as callous and mean spirited. 🤷
@@crosmanchallenger1 I realized that after I wrote my comment. Got him confused with the other fellow (the former atheist Augustinian Jay Dyer hater). Retracted. My apologies.
@orthodoxdill-ev3sm But that flies in the face of so many biblical figures and saints who underwent radical change, precisely because their discomfort was anything but slight. These suffered some of the most severe kinds of spiritual and intellectual wounds only insofar as they were met head on by the “sword” and “enmity” which Christ, by His own correction of your tenor, came to institute (Math 10:34-36). We should not forget that it was Christ who was present and active when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed or when Ezekiel 25:17 was uttered. There are saints in our church, who spat in the face of emperors, who slapped the face of heretics, who underwent torture in order to be purified of their worldly detritus. For whatever reason, coming to the truth can be (needs to be) the result of devastation, shattering and the most grueling sort of woe. So I respectfully disagree that a persons former world view need always be erased by gentle accretions. We are not called to be Boanerges in order to constantly coddle persons according to their secular perspective on polite discourse. Perhaps some are engendered to faith by this petting but most are in need of the very lacerations that only our hospital (Church) can then heal. Christ came to call the sick not the healthy. But those people are completely unaware of the fact that they are sick, that they are dead. Awakening them to that reality is perceived by the extreme majority as harsh and impolitic. So be it.
30:00 on hearing this my first thought was that there is not a concise and robust in-between. Things seem grey for lack of finely detailed vision. Such vision is not available to all, so we can allow the distinction to rest with its proper master. However the whole foundation of the argument is that there is a basic truth which we must respect. The disagreement is on how that is done.
Fr, around 5:40 you said that "The Church can recognize the Sacraments of the Church even if theyre done outside of the Church." In recognizing these things among others such as certain communities not in communion with Orthodoxy maintaining Apostolic succession, does that mean that the position of the Church is that these "sacraments" performed outside the Church unite those people to the Body?
Jays stuff came at a time when there was a thirst for it, and the banning of Stefan Molyneux from youtube at the time was a great benefit to Jay. Both those guys are high on their own farts, but they definitely had some edifying content to offer in the techno-wasteland of that day. Stefan is still dropping great stuff today, BTW. I remember calling out Jays offensive behaviors as ruthlessly as he would present them and always encouraged others to do the same. I think he has toned it back, but I don't think has yet internalized why. You can push your enemy out of the way of an oncoming train with lovingly ruthless ferocity - or you can push him in front of the same with damning hatred. That probably illustrates the differences in approach - and the mark of hatred is absolutely unacceptable for someone adhering to the faith. No one ever outgrows the schoolyard, and nerds really don't understand the proper application of male aggression. For the most part they really have little experience with it in the wild; You can see the difference pretty clearly when you watch his discussion with Tristan Tate for example. I remember when he got into his beef with the ex-freemason dude, who unfortunately was quite injured by the ordeal IIRC. I think it was some consolation for him to learn that there are plenty of Orthodox Chtristians - many of which are "cradledox" laymen, who could smoke these cyberdox grifters in about two seconds if they chose to. Hopefully that situation encouraged him to continue his ministry experientially rather than FOB your living room. Tabulating your ministry through the internet as if the experience of God can somehow be bottled and sold, will probably have some pretty "Dyer" consequences. Not saying its a bad practice, but that stuff really doesn't hold a candle to the depth that's actually there beyond the traditional four dimensions.
It has always been my understanding, of the orthodox saints, that the Holy Spirit, when working throughout creation, it not the same thing as the Holy Spirit illuminating someone at their orthodox baptism and christmation.
Thank you for this series “Cyberdoxy”. I'm very happy to have found Met. Jonah on here to make sense of this situation has helped bring a lot of clarity for me, he has been a voice of reason for me. I'm waiting for every episode to come out, just finished the newest one. Also, I love Jay Dyer and Peter Heers, I really appreciate them both. I am especially thankful to Jay for helping myself and others find Orthodoxy, I thank God for that.
Maybe im wrong but i don't believe showing the ways that the truth of the faith can be understood rationally is "reducing the faith to rational concepts" or "mere rationalism". In my humble opinion, it would not be either/or. The truth as I understand it can be understood (on one level and in some capacity) rationally, while there is a deeper part which cannot be. The debates which happen in my experience help people to understand why Orthodoxy is the true faith, but they are not an argument for the faith being merely rational.
We can recognize that Jay Dyer has done a lot of good work and at the same time recognize that he absolutely doesn't represent the Orthodox faith and has a lot of growing to do, as we all do in various ways.
@kyrieeleison7535 Aaaand you proceed to demonize not only thousands of people, but thousands of Orthodox people. The Dyer Derangement Syndrome is real.
I value a lot of what Jay and those like him do, but it seems to me spiritual fruit is not weighed in terms of the numbers of people intellectually won to our position. Spiritual fruit I think would have more to do with Galatians 5:22-23.
@@3devdas777 this is very disturbing to me as a new convert, seeing Met Jonah take this ecclisiological position in opposition to what I THOUGHT was the consensus amongst faithful clergy
@@WoodchuckNorris.8oJason Hunt on a canonical synodal level in the 21st century only the Georgian Patriarchiate, and ROCOR have adopted the 1765 Council in receiving all converts by baptism only. Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Bulgaria, etc. have not and receive converts in three different forms (Baptism, Chrismation, or Confession). Athos is an entirely unique category, and does follow the 1765 Council.
13:25 st theophan the recluse speaks precisely against your position and "orthodox wisdom" reads the excerpt in his video "on truth and love- st theophan the recluse". Are you aware of this?
We Americans are ate up with the sin of pride. The extremes show but it is woven into us from birth in this land. I don't know, I am lowly, but if we do lose a debate, argument, or fight, we have to turn and get away from there as quickly and completely as possible. Think about that. There is a nation of bountiful harvest right now, reap where you did not sow
Yes, but obsequious, sanctimonious, superficial forms of humility can be every bit as pernicious. Sometimes cowardice in the face of Gods blasphemous enemies can be camouflaged by the pious veneer of humility. I will always take someone who may be telling the truth a bit more harshly than is deemed necessary by the secular world, over someone who is afraid to speak the truth, lest they offend someone who needs it the way a man lost in the desert at noontime needs water. I honestly think a lot of Orthodox Christians could stand to be a bit more forceful in their opposition to erroneous doctrines both within and without. This was particularly obvious during the Covid hysteria, when so many Orthodox, who saw how incredibly unsound the science behind these totalitarian measures were, didn’t have fortitude enough to confront their fellow parishioners, who were going along with the entire program so credulously and thankfully despite the mutilating effect it was having on our doxology.
Thank you for speaking on this important topic. Have you had the chance to read the book "On the Reception of the Heterodox: The Patristic Consensus and Criteria"? I read it recently, and was really impressed by how thorough it is, as well as its respectful tone.
This is something that very much needs to be said. I am an Orthodox catechumen and my journey to orthodoxy was prolong by probably one year by the arrogance of one coverts’s online behavior
"The Church’s anathema throws disobedient persons from the salvific flock of Christ, which remains with the same fullness of grace-filled gifts (…) The Orthodox Church always taught through the mouth of the holy fathers and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils that there is no communion with grace-filled life in Christ outside her and that one receives His [Christ’s] gifts only in her bosom and that outside of her there are no bishops, nor priests, nor mysteries." --- Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky), First Hierarch of ROCOR
So no one has lived a grace filled life with Jesus outside the Orthodox Church? Sounds like a pretty tall claim. I believe it was the grace of Christ that brought me to the church in the first place.
@@orthodoxtraditionalists I didn’t say anything about sacraments. My question is simple: does no heterodox Christian encounter grace from Christ? Yes or no.
@@IAMFISH92 The Holy Spirit acting out side of the Church to draw people to his true Church of course. That is not the same as recognizing that these heretical bodies that have been Anathematized as having "apostolic succession".
I think the Metropolitan is trying to get across the broader consensus view of the holy fathers, hammered out over many centuries, that "schismatics" properly speaking (in the sense that St. Basil uses the term, and which he distinguishes from heretics who believe in a completely different deity), even those schismatics with heretical aspects of their confession, can and ought to be received by the second or third rite, because their valid baptism, received outside the Church, becomes saving and efficacious for them upon their uniting to the Church. The late economic theory of the sacraments is simply that-- late, local, and produced in a time of great upheaval for the Greek Church, and which was never accepted outside the Ottoman Empire. Blessed Father Daniel Sysoev: “The sacraments of heretics are recognized by the Fathers of the First, Second, Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils. Among the Fathers of the Church - St. Stephen of Rome, St. Vincent of Lerins, Blessed Augustine, St. Basil the Great, St. John of Damascus, St. Mark of Ephesus, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Philaret of Moscow, and are rejected by St. Cyprian of Carthage and St. Hilarion Troitsky.” St. Tarasius points out during the Acts of the Seventh Council that St. Meletius was “ordained by the Arians; yet, when he ascended the pulpit and preached the consubstantiality, his ordination was never disapproved.” (Acts of the Seventh Council) Further, he states, “What say ye to Anatolius? Was he not President of the fourth Ecumenical Council, and this although he was ordained by the impious Dioscorus in the presence of Eutyches himself? May we not then, admit those who have been ordained by heretics, since Anatolius was thus admitted? And again, it is the undoubted voice of God, that the children shall not die for the fathers, but each one shall die for his own sin. And moreover, consecration is from God.” (Ibid.) “The greater part of those who sat in the sixth Ecumenical Council were ordained by Sergius, Pyrrhus, Peter, and Paul, prime movers of the heresy of the Monothelites, because that they, in succession, obtained the chair of Constantinople; and from Peter, the last of these, to the time of the sixth Council, was a space of fifteen years, during which period John, Thomas, and Constantine, who were also high Priests in succession, received their orders from the heretics aforesaid, but no objection was ever raised against them on that account: now this heresy continued for upwards of fifty years. Nevertheless, the Fathers of the sixth Council scrupled not to condemn all the four above-named heretical Patriarchs, though they had been ordained by them.”
“It’s really critical, it’s essential, that we move away from antagonistic, aggressive arguments about the Faith.” Waiting for Jay to tweet that Met Jonah has been subverted by the CIA. 😂
Jay Dyer is the reason my family attends an Orthodox Church. But I will say now that he has convinced me I try not to over-listen to him because it makes me be snippity with people. I like listening to David Patrick Harry for this reason as well as Jays wife Jaime. I also try and listen to actual Fathers like this channel
38:00 Vladyka, you misrepresent what St. Silouan said on that occasion. He did not say "do they have sacraments? do they have Eucharist?", but rather "do they have service to God in their churches, do they read the word of God"? And the reply to that anonymous missionary Archimandrite: "... they do well to go to church for services and pray at home, and read the word of God, and the rest, but here and there they have a mistake, which has to be corrected, and then all shall be good; and the Lord will rejoice about them; and so we will be saved by the mercy of God" [implying that without correcting the error there will be no salvation - in my own interpretation of this place. I don't have English text, translating back from Russian.]
“There is a a time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to keep silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.” -Ecclesiastes
“And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.” Ezekiel 25:17
Point being, love being always and ever interpreted in this almost secular sense of petting people until they agree with you is difficult to justify biblically or patristically.
@@MaximusWolfeI mean, presumably if his Eminence’s position fell more towards your opinion on this topic you would probably be a bit more excited, right? We should all take the opinion of the hierarchy a bit more seriously than laymen and lower clergy orders regardless of where they fall, but I think it’s pretty human of us to be more enthusiastic when their opinions align more so with our own. None of us are free from bias, unfortunately. Met. Jonah stayed rather neutral throughout this whole talk, and he has a working friendship with Jay and company. In fact, I think Jay even falls in line with his Eminence in certain areas, particularly in regards to the reception of the heterodox. I remember a conversation Jay had with Fr. Peter a number of years ago where Fr. Heers took a hardline approach to baptism and Jay kicked back quite a bit (as Jay himself was chrismated into the church in ROCOR). These things are fluid. We can disagree about certain things without it having to turn into an “us vs. them” type of deal. Also, before Ben commented on this video thanking his Eminence for speaking on the topic, Jay was already patrolling the comment section and making remarks ostensibly chiding people for simply sharing their experience in watching his videos. It looked as though Jay took offense at what he perceived to be an attack on his character. I’m not faulting Jay for this. Again, it’s part of our fallen nature to want to be right and to defend ourselves when we feel attacked. Let’s at least try and recognize this and give people the benefit of the doubt.
@@IAMFISH92 I made that comment with specific regard to “Theoria.” That channel has been consistently fraught with protestantizing and liberalism. He scours for anyone in authority or in a position of influence to redeem his ecumenist bent and grow his audience so as to guide them into false teachings. He is famous for this and correctly so.
@@MaximusWolfe That’s a lot of accusations there. My advice would be to let truth play out. If your genuine concern is for other people to know the truth and grow closer to God then simply allow God to do that. Berating a fellow Orthodox brother on a comment section of TH-cam isn’t going to win anyone over. I happen to like Theoria, Jay, even Fr. Peter (in so far as he is obedient to his bishop which is kind of a problem right now), and others. We take what’s good and leave the rest. Simple as that. We don’t need to ascribe motives or character assess people simply because we disagree with them. If Theoria is wrong about some things, which he is, it could just as easily be that he’s honestly mistaken in his positions. Why does everything have to be some nefarious conspiracy related to “subversion” or some other such thing?
I used to be more neutral and charitable to Ben Cabe aka Theoria, but he is exactly as @Theosis70 says @@IAMFISH92 it's not about being wrong, it's about motive.
St. Cyprian is my patron saint, but he was wrong on the reception of converts. I'm surprised people are latching on to his teaching because it has been rejected by the church. First of all, he made the grace of the sacrament dependent on the worthiness of the priest. So if a priest is secretly a wicked man, the sacraments he dispenses are valueless. Secondly, he rejected all baptisms outside the church, a position which the Ecumenical Councils rejected. Obvious example: He rejected the baptisms administered by Novatians, but the councils rejected them. So no matter how you cut it, St. Cyprian's teachings on this matter have not been received by the church. Those who are pushing this issue have a loud microphone on TH-cam, where few oppose them, but there are plenty of good arguments against their position. th-cam.com/video/NAEfPli4r7o/w-d-xo.html
@@Giorginho, he actually does it in a bunch of his letters. But the first example that comes to mind is letter 68 paragraph 5, where he says that if Pupianus' calumnies of him are true, the people have lacked a priest and all of his priestly enactments were devoid of grace.
@@SeraphimGoose, he was not a Donatist (too early for that in any event), but his writings later helped fuel the Donatist movement. St. Vincent of Lerins said in his Commonitorium, "And O marvellous revolution! The authors of this same doctrine are judged Catholics, the followers heretics; the teachers are absolved, the disciples condemned; the writers of the books will be children of the Kingdom, the defenders of them will have their portion in Hell. For who is so demented as to doubt that that blessed light among all holy bishops and martyrs, Cyprian, together with the rest of his colleagues, will reign with Christ; or, who on the other hand so sacrilegious as to deny that the Donatists and those other pests, who boast the authority of that council for their iteration of baptism, will be consigned to eternal fire with the devil?"
“The church can recognize the sacraments of the church even they’re done outside the church”. I LOVE THIS CLARITY. Now, without naming names there are those (on the internet) who have gained a massive following and seemingly take the opposite position. I see it causing a lot of harm and damage to the faithful. Lord have mercy! Edit: Halfway through and I see someone mentioned Fr. Heers by name. That is indeed who I’m referring to in my comment.
“The devil spread three tentacles tο capture the whole world. The rich to catch them with Masonry, the poor with communism and the religious with ecumenism.” -Saint Paisios of Μount Athos
@@robertgillum6674 Ok. What does false ecumenism have to do with what I said? You can’t just level the accusation of ecumenism at everyone you disagree with.
@@basilp5179 Read the sample available online. I’ll say this: the historical case against baptism of the heterodox is much better born out through the history of the Church and the saints individually. Also, I find it very disingenuous that no one was willing to even put their name on the book. He doesn’t have a bishop and as per the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of America he teaches the faithful OUTSIDE the bounds of the church. I can’t be certain, but this is what I believe is the impetus for not putting his name on the book. He’s leading many young converts astray.
Watch Jay and you'll see his humility, his avoidance of false piety, his dedication to others. His character was an inspiration to me as a catechumen even more than his video work, and his video work is great.
@@Calciu_83 Have you not recently noticed Jay in his streams, saying things like "I'm not saying that you are like that" or "I'm not trying to be mean," etc.? Do you think that when Jay begins his streams saying, "This stream isn't for you to tell me that I'm mean," that he isn't actually hurting when he says that? You can visibly see that he is. The brother is trying his best and needs our prayers, not our piety signaling.
RC’s and other heretical groups such as the Mia’s etc do not have apostolic succession. Not even a question. The fact that this is flirted with in this video is disturbing. Apostolic succession is not simply the laying on of hands, but a passing on of the faith “BISHOP TO BISHOP”. The sacrament of ordination is non-existent in heretical groups, therefore, there is no BISHOP, nor a valid priesthood. . . Like the Creed states: “ONE holy, catholic, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH” . . . not “many” apostolic churches. There are no sacraments outside of the body (The Church), or is Christ divided? Same Nestorian heresy, different day. . . nothing new under the sun. God have mercy on us. Galatians 5: 19-21; St Paul doesn’t skate around the question of what the fate of the heretics will be.
"But we set our seal likewise upon all the other holy canons set forth by our holy and blessed Fathers […] and those of Carthage. […] Moreover the Canon set forth by Cyprian, Archbishop of the country of the Africans and Martyr, and by the Synod under him, which has been kept only in the country of the aforesaid Bishops, according to the custom delivered down to them. And that no one be allowed to transgress or disregard the aforesaid canons, or to receive others beside them, supposititiously set forth by certain who have attempted to make a traffic of the truth. But should anyone be convicted of innovating upon, or attempting to overturn, any of the afore-mentioned canons, he shall be subject to receive the penalty which that canon imposes, and to be cured by it of his transgression." -- Canon 2 of the Fifth-Sixth Ecumenical Council, Concerning the Canons, Councils, and Ecclesiology of Saint Cyprian.
Pope St. Stephen ruled that the decision of St. Cyprian was erroneous, and he, together with Firmillian, would have had more respect towards the decision of the Pope St. Stephen if they had more wisdom towards it. As many heretical sects propagated error concerning the mystery of the Holy Trinity and they didn't baptize in the name of the Three Divine Persons, there was cause to presume that heretics altered the form of this sacrament (Cf. St. Ildephonsus of Toledo, De Cog. Bap. ch. 100). St. Cyprian quoted the Marcionites that baptized in the name of Jesus Christ only (cf. Epistle 73). On the other hand, the Pope in his rescript to St. Cyprian appears to not distinguish between the baptism of heretics that altered the form of the sacrament, and that of the heretics that observed the trinitarian form; from this St. Cyprian would affirm that the Pope gave indistinctly as valid the baptism of two kinds (cf. Ibid), this is a false supposition, for this cf. 50th Canon of the Apostles. A lot of Protestant critics like Blondel, Basnage and Mosheim speak of this dispute with passion and infidelity that characterize them. They say that Pope St. Stephen acted in these circumstances with a lot of pride, loftiness and obstinacy, which is clearly not the case as the Council of Arles in its Canon 8 shows.
@@orthodoxtraditionalistsFalse, there are Councils, for example, Trullo which validates the Council of Carthage of 419. And now if you say, "well... the new book of Fr. Heers addresses this", false. So much that the Council of Constantinople in 1484 used it, the Great Council of Moscow of 1667 (which the anonymous author, but I presume Fr. Heers is involved with, dismisses as not being authoritative despite Moscow 1718 and the previous Council in 1655 affirming the same, so much that during the sessions Athonite manuscripts were used exclusively to prove that rebaptism of Latins was an innovation per Metropolitan Paisius of Gaza and Patriarch Macarius III of Antioch, Professor Kaptarev and other first-hand witnesses and historians), and others saying it is binding. That you don't know how to interpret the context of the writings, or the Ecclesiology being discussed based on poor academics, and low-tier historical revisionism which Fr. Peter Heers is known for, is not my problem, gave you the sources to look for, your move.
It's funny though, many evangelicals follow Christ because of their experience, not because of theology. "Protestant" doesn't capture all those who are not apostolic. In fact, many evangelicals are proud they don't trust reason and "logic". Did Luther not say, "reason is a whore" ?
Is it really helpful to be speaking only negatively about Fr. Peter Heers's efforts to spread what he's learned from his athonite elders? If someone feels that his arguments should be more nuanced, or more charitable toward other interpretations of eccliesiology, that's fine. It seems however that he's being treated as an enemy of the orthodox faith, and is spreading hatred of others. From what I've experienced personality from him, he deeply loves the faith, the flock and especially the grace bearing elders at whose feet he has been struggling to learn to live his faith. I deeply respect the things that are being said here, but I wish there was more of an acknowledgement of the fact that someone like Father Peter is not speaking from merely his own opinion and is laboring much to help many others who are struggling in their spiritual life. I'm all for criticism, but it would be encouraging to show a bit more charity for the side, especially if you feel that Fr. Peter should do the same
Telling people to disobey their bishops and priests is setting himself up as a sort of "Pope of Cyberdoxy". By telling people to not listen to the men who have apostolic succession, he is essentially telling his followers to place themselves in schism with the rest of the Church. He even has secret meetings where he tells people to not tell their clergy they attend.
@@govols1995 The latter accusation sounds a lot like murmuring, speculation and gossip. That's more of my point than anything. The tone is way less Christian than anything I've heard Fr. Peter say. BTW, my spiritual life was saved by finally being convinced to disobey my old priest who was exhibiting abusive behavior. The reason for an exhortation towards disobedience makes all the difference.
@@petehoyle8687 The latter "accusation" was confirmed as happening by a ROCOR Archbishop who had received multiple complaints about it from multiple priests. And there is a difference between an abusive priest, and what Fr Heers does, which is tell people their chrismation is not good enough and will doom them to Hell unless they disobey their bishop and sneak to a monastery for a "corrective" baptism.
I will be obedient to my Father but please allow me to add my thoughts. Blessed St. Herman pray for us. We have to contend with a very different world than the one the Alaskan natives had to. While they probably rarely read books, we are immersed in a virtual world of ideas which is nearly inescapable. In order to have any outreach at all or to answer the multitude of new ideas and tie them back to heresy, there needs to be some penetration into the culture to disseminate Orthodoxy to the "natives" or all they will see is satanic smut. "Cyberdoxy" is achieving this. I would not even know Orthodoxy exists, even though one of my best friends is cradle Orthodox, and there is a local Orthodox Church in my town, if I had not been introduced through "cyberdoxy". Of course, going to Church every week and taking part in the life of the Church is more important but without people like Jay Dyer we may not be seeing the surge of converts we are seeing now. Im not trying to change Orthodoxy but it often feels like we are afraid of evangalizing. In an age where people are so disconnected that even next door neighbors dont know each other, how else are we supposed to achieve growth? How can we convert curious people if we are afraid to talk about God because we might accidentally get something wrong? Is it good to assume that people wont accept a rational and cohesive argument and therefor we should only target their emotions? We need people who resonate with young people, know how to navigate this generation's culture, and can pull people out of the abyss and into Orthodoxy. If you want young people to change their ways and start listening to their elders, they will probably learn that from someone like Jay first, because they need someone they can resonate with to start them on their journey. Thank you, Father.
Some good things and some disappointing. We will see in 2025 and during next lockdowns and what not, who will do what and this will be the measurement.
@@IAMFISH92 I understand your curiosity. However, responding to you, would only increase my already strong resentment/upset and I don't want to go there. Hope you can understand.
Acusing orhers of being motivated by hate seems pretty hateful. I did not judge Dyer and was kind of surprised when i found orthodox like this who do, quickly and harshly.
Christ (our foremost exemplar) said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. That He came to sew enmity between persons. Christ called his opposition at various times snakes, spiders, hypocrites, whited sepulcher’s, Dead Man’s Bones, devils, reprobates, liars, brigands, charlatans, etc. Yet Christ is love personified, enfleshed and unexampled. It was Christ speaking to Ezekiel in the Old Testament, who said: “And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know that I am the lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.” You say they will know us by our love, but that only prompts the question: what is love? It’s very clear from the Scriptures that love, in certain circumstances, can be a sword, a physical confrontation, a pejorative, a rebuke and an admonition. For the money changers love was received as a violent lashing, as a frontal assault and extrusion, for the Pharisees it was being roundly denounced as having betrayed every jot and tittle of their occupation. Of course love needn’t be these things all the time, but to pretend like it can’t be these at any time is unbiblical and contrary to the wisdom of fathers like St. John Chrysostom who famously said: “We should not mind offending men if by flattering them we offend God.” There is a “time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to keep silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.” - Ecclesiastes Love being constantly portrayed as petting those who who walk in darkness according to a totally subjective, secular and evil sense of righteousness is deceptive and can in fact be quite harmful. We are supposed be “Boanerges (intense electrical discharges that light up an otherwise sable night).” Hard to see how we qualify as that when constantly conflating love with utterly passive, nice notions social interaction.
@Theosis70 um, ok...I don't think my statement precludes anything you wrote above. Relax. Some of your elders in Orthodoxy really *do* know what Love means. Too often anxious converts assume they know the best course of action in a parish when error occurs. Trust your Orthodox Elders...but ultimately put your Trust in God, to whom all of us will have to give an account.
@@MJS2376 Why you assume I am in an agitated state is anybody’s guess. Nothing in my comment denotes disquietude. I put trust in the example of Christ before all things. So do the elders. I’m not a new convert. We should ape Christ even before we ape the saints for He is the foremost model of manhood.
13:26 "Is this loving thing to tell them they are going to hell". Yes, very much so. It's hatred and murder to lie to the perishing ones they don't need to do what's necessary for their salvation. The trouble is, what I tell them won't convince them, and likely will have the opposite effect. Life according to the teaching of the Church would be convincing, and I am coming terribly short.
“The presuppositions are fundamentally Protestant” spot on. I get so frustrated watching Dyer et al because it’s all so spiritually dead & rationalistic, and the whole thing is entirely Protestant! It’s like they just adopt the trappings of Orthodoxy. I think it’s like wearing a cloak. Granted, I’m not even Christian, much less Orthodox. But the whole project seems antithetical to the faith to me.
I think God in His wisdom raises up men of different attributes and abilities to reach people where they are, but once they are Orthodox it’s time to grow slowly and steady. Love our neighbors as ourselves.
A few words on St. Cyprian of Carthage and his ecclesiology:
At 5:54 Met. Jonah says, “Now, there’s another argument that was earlier, by Cyprian of Carthage who basically said that outside the Church there is undifferentiated darkness. The Church does not recognize that. And council after council after council has refused to recognize the argument of Cyprian of Carthage.”
The phrase “undifferentiated darkness” is first used not by St. Cyprian but by Fr. John Erickson and later by Fr. Thomas Hopko, as far as I can tell. To say that St. Cyprian believed such a thing is a caricature of his understanding. While St. Cyprian speaks clearly about there being no salvation and no mysteries outside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, it is a step further to conclude that everything outside the Church is equally devoid of degrees of truth and goodness. Surely, St. Cyprian is not so naive to think that some men are more ready to repent and embrace the gospel than others, and yet still those better prepared are “undifferentiated” from those less prepared. Without clear evidence, this seems to me a sweeping accusation that need not be made.
At 22:20 Met. Jonah says, “The biggest problem with Cyprianic ecclesiology is it’s too much of a rational reduction. It’s black and white thinking. We don’t deal in black and white thinking. We’re not dualists.”
For a supposed black and white thinker, does the following from St. Cyprian not show his understanding that ultimately the salvation of all is in God’s hands, and salvation may even be possible despite not following Christ’s command to “baptize all”?
“But someone says, “What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism?’ The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep. Nevertheless it does not follow that, because there was error at one time, there must always be error; since it is more fitting for wise and God-fearing men, gladly and without delay to obey the truth when laid open and perceived, than pertinaciously and obstinately to struggle against brethren and fellow-priests on behalf of heretics.” -St. Cyprian, Epistle 72 to Jubaianus.
At 48:01 Met. Jonah says, “Cyprian was accepted by the Church as a saint and some of his theology was accepted, some of it was rejected.”
Canon 2 of Trullo ratified the canon of Carthage 258 which was headed by St. Cyprian. Despite what some have put forth, such as the author of the “Sacramental Rigourism” article that I believe Met. Jonah is referring to at one point in this video, this canon was ratified by Trullo not in order for it to remain only authoritative in Africa, but rather to be authoritative universally just like the other canons that were previously authoritative only locally, such as Carthage 419. The language about Carthage 258 holding sway in Africa does not mean it is meant to always and forever only hold sway in Africa, but that the canon of Carthage 258 was the canon which held sway in those places, and Trullo now makes that canon not only local but ecumenical. Canon 2 of Trullo states: “…the canon promulgated by Cyprian… which alone held sway in the places of the aforesaid presidents, in accordance with the custom handed down to them…” A much more consistent reading is to assume that Carthage 258 and 419 are both made universal, just like the rest of the canons mentions, such as the Apostolic Canons, not that all were made universal by Canon 2 except for one. To say Carthage 258 remained only a canon with local and not universal authority is to say it has no greater authority than the canons and fathers that were passed over in silence, namely the Council of Arles, St. Augustine, and every other Latin council and father.
Carthage 258 canon is representative of St. Cyprian’s views, expressing the akrevia (exactitude) of the Church on ecclesiology and the separate but related matter of reception of converts. At the same time, not everything St. Cyprian wrote was ratified by Trullo, nor were all the writings of any other Church Father named in Canon 2, even St. Basil whose writings constitute more ecumenical canons than any other Church Father. Also, in St. Basil we see in his canon 1 allowing for economia, yet commemorating St. Cyprian approvingly, and in his canon 47 referring to economia being exercised in Rome but calling for akrevia (exactitude) regardless of what Rome is doing.
Looking at the canons of St. Cyprian and St. Basil, and the Apostolic Canons, we see the same ecclesiology, the same understanding of the boundaries of the Church and that no mysteries exist outside of Her. The only difference between St. Cyprian and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils is a slight difference in application of ecclesiology, with allowance for reception by economia in specific instances based on specific presuppositions, but not the ecclesiology itself. The ecumenical canons allow for economia, even calling for it for specifically named groups of heretics, but the ecclesiology is the same and the specifically named allowances for economia do no damage whatsoever to the ecclesiology. Therefore, to speak of St. Cyprian’s ecclesiology as not being representative of the Church is incorrect, and dishonors those fathers at Trullo who elevated St. Cyprian’s canon to universal authority, seeing it as divinely inspired.
Thanks for writing this up ❤. Made my day
Timothy! Thank you so much for such a thorough response! I’m past my prime intellectual years but it’s wonderful to see all you younger guys defending AKRIVIA as the NORM! I’m assuming your response was easier to write with the OE book on the Reception of the Heterodox close at hand? This grandma will keep spending her days praying for you lay defenders of the Faith! I really hope we meet in Platina next week! If not you really must come see us and meet the new nun in town! 🥰🙏🏻☦️
lol they turned the comments off for the second part because it even got "better". So sad to see this but yeah...
@@christophjasinski4804 sad but not surprised. We will have help the people in other ways, both in the practical ways Met. Jonah advocated for, and to help show a more faithful understanding of the Church’s dogma and understanding of Herself and those outside Her.
@@timothyhoneycutt3648 also heard the 3rd one. Finally, he mentiones Frs Schmeman and Meyendorff as his teachers. That was interesting. However, I’ll move on.
I appreciate Jay Dyer for pointing me towards the Orthodox study Bible and a multitude of other books written by the Orthodox Saints.
I appreciate him too for helping me consider Orthodoxy. As a western Christian I ONLY examined things through a rational type of lens. After coming into the church I found he was no longer helpful for me. I had to dispense with him in order to actually start to grow spiritually. It was too much in the head and not in the heart.
@@IAMFISH92 yes I had a similar experience. Now I am under the guidance of a spiritual father within the Orthodox church and you are right about switching from thr reasoning of the mind and the opening of the heart.
What have I done that makes you think I ever told you not to have a spiritual father or only focus on intellect?
@@JayDyer No one claimed that you told anyone not to have a spiritual Father, Jay. You’re always insanely clear that you are NOT A substitute for a spiritual father. What we are trying to say is that your talks helped us understand the apologetic arguments for the case of Orthodoxy, but after having grasped them and been intellectually convinced by them we realized we needed to focus less on the polemics and more on prayer, fasting, confession, the services, etc. It’s ok for people to express their opinions and experiences on TH-cam. You do it all the time.
@@JayDyer you have done nothing my dear brother. You actually encouraged me to seek guidance from a spiritual father which I did even though I have to travel. 🙂 You never once said to ignore the heart. Your content is definitely for the intellect. Just so you know. Your channel is a blessing and I don't think you are mean. 🙂 My library is full of all of your recommendations.
Note from the admins: please be respectful, charitable, and loving in all comments. We will delete any aggressive, disrespectful, antagonistic, patronizing, or uncharitable comments. 🙏🏻
To ease moderation duties of our volunteer admins, the option for viewers to comment will be left open here on this class but closed for any sequential videos in this series. 🙏🏻
Jay has helped "love me into the kingdom" by exposing the errors and false presuppositions i have been believing in protestantism. I never called in but i have learned slowly over time through all his videos and i am grateful to God for the role he had in my journey.
I really appreciate this discussion. Today many perhaps most people have lost or never been taught the ability to calmly discuss variations in ideas without taking disagreement as a personal attack. Typically, factual knowledge is shallow, but if you can insult someone into silence you win seems to be the tactic. Obviously we cannot go back to a time when people were told "just be nice to everyone and let someone else do the thinking." The old saying that Protestantism made everyone a pope is true, and that makes theological discussion unavoidable. Orthodox people awakening from an inability to know why they believe what they believe is a good thing. The cyber folks are filling a hunger in people which is not satisfied by the 15-minute homily once a week. Excellent to have Metr. Jonah's instruction.
I was brought to orthodoxy by the blessing of God and the prayers of our blessed theotokos and the saints. Indeed it was God who gave increase. But it was through people like Jay Dyer and David Erhan and Craig truglia and Father Josiah Trenham and Kyle orthodox that the seed was planted in my heart. Let us pray for their well being.
Precisely. I’m sure Jay Dyer would prefer having converted thousands of people to the true faith to being considered the worlds nicest Christian. And honestly, if people are aspiring to the latter they are totally misguided.
5:35 if you accept the sacraments of other "churches" then why should anyone bother converting? Preference in worship style? If they have the eucharist, which in our preparation manual is called the chief sacrament around which church life revolves, then what do they lack that they must find in orthodoxy?
Excellent question. How it was explained to me, in those other churches they do have the appearance of the Sacraments (marriage, for example,) but not the essence; so when they convert to Orthodoxy, this appearance becomes filled with the previously missing essence, and there is no need to repeat the appearance. Thirty years later, I am still not sure if I am convinced, but such was the explanation.
@@vsevolodtokarev that would not be accepting the "sacraments" then
I never became a diehard Jay Dyer fan. I have watched a few of his shows which are fascinating with regard to what we think of as "Popular Culture" but is in fact the beast system. I see his value in bringing the cohort of souls who are waking up to the reality that we indeed live in the beast system that awaits it's final Anti-Christ and who are completely unchurched or have nearly zero grounding in Trinitarian Christian orthodoxy and history. I don't see him as a catechist but as a kind of town cryer - Jay Dyer the Town Cryer calling on us to wake up to the inferno that is consuming our world and to see that there is another reality; the Truth of Christ. I have seen him time and again tell his heterodox viewers to go an Orthodox Church and talk to a priest to learn more and begin their journey. The Holy Spirit can certainly use individuals like this to beckon towards the Truth even if such an individual is flawed in his approach for some souls, it's there for the souls who needed him. God alone knows. Since we don't know and cannot limit where the Holy Spirit can move and operate, we cannot say He is not working through such individuals as Jay Dyer.
Unless that priest happens to disagree with Jay on some minor issue. Then they are CIA puppet demon heretics. All must obey the mighty Jay.
Jay is not perfect nor above reproach like anyone else but he’s literally an Orthodox Christian (ROCOR). Lord have mercy on us all.
Father, thank you so much for this video. I am very thankful to Jay Dyer and his work because he brings so many people to the Orthodox Church. I like to see Jay as a bridge between the two worlds. He is really effective at attracting young people and showing them that there's more than what they've been taught The challenge for these converts, is going deeper once they actually join the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, a lot of people get stuck in being "based" or in this antagonistic mode that you're talking about and that's not what Orthodoxy is. To Jay's credit, he always points people to the clergy and I think it's tough for him because since he is in the public square all his faults are there for people to see and people also get stuck in criticizing him instead of working on their own theosis.
Thank you for discussing these subjects in such a loving and thoughtful way, it's super refreshing. God bless you.
Thank you Vladyka! I've noticed this valuation of internet Orthodox based on their articulateness, or their level of education or reading, ability to recall facts etc. as if this was the highest virtue or some how indicative of true spirituality . But I'm reminded of St. Paul's exhortation, "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge... but have not love, I am nothing." Education, articulateness, intelligence are all great things, but we should be following above all those who exemplify love, holiness of life and true prayer.
One of the few Orthodox comments in the comment section, unfortunately. Writing just to encourage you to continue on this path. The true Faith is precious beyond everything in this world and not worth losing for any feeling of camaraderie or anything else
It seems like people from two sides of a different argument are reading into this video meaning that Metropolitan Jonah did not intend. Context is important.
100%
Indeed
Thank you so much for this video. I have been inquiring for quite some time now and these videos really help me. Other online content is very useful but these videos seem better for inquirers and catechumens. It seems that some of the issues talked about by others online can be very confusing for people uninitiated in the Church. I’ve grown up in a Calvary Chapel church with my dad as the pastor, so it is very hard for me to realize things with evangelical Christianity are wrong. I think this video presents the best approach to those outside of Orthodoxy, and many others in the Church seem to have this mind set but online it isn’t represented that much. I am in the process of corresponding with the priest at my local parish (Kimisis Tis Theotokou Greek Orthodox Church in the Hamptons) so I can become a catechumen. This is hard for me since it means potential conflict with my family and it would be weird for me to just stop going to my church. It gets very difficult because I live in the parsonage and the church is right across the street. The orthodox parish is about 20 min away which isn’t so bad. I have faith that God will lead me to Orthodoxy, but I must be humble. It is also very hard because of my mental illnesses. Any advice and prayers would be much appreciated, thank you and God bless you
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
I'm glad to hear Vladyka talking about Lectio Divina. I had almost forgotten about this method of prayer and Scripture reading.
I’m always pleased to hear him speak about it!
Glory to Jesus Christ that thousands of souls have entered the Ark of Salvation through videos and podcasts! May we all stand on the right of God with the sheep. Amen
Thank you your Eminence for this sober dialogue. God bless and save us all.
I came to Orthodoxy when I realized the Bible was written in Greek, so the Greek traditions are probably the way to go. Then I learned what it was really all about, and I was baptized a year ago.
And what would you be when you realize that Christ and the apostles spoke Aramaic?
@@namapalsu2364 Move to the village of Maаlоula in Syria where that language is still spoken? Luckily, there is a sizable Orthodox parish there, and even a convent of St. Thekla.
@@vsevolodtokarev And maybe move to a village in Israel where the language of YHWH is still spoken and convert to their faith?
@@namapalsu2364 true, Jesus and the Apostles spoke Syriac. However, the New Testament was still written in Koine Greek
@@namapalsu2364 Hebrew is boring. In context, YHWH is “I Am That I Am.” In Greek it sounds like God’s true name: “I Am, The Existing One.”
Bless, your Eminence!
With all due respect, I disagree with your position.
St. Cyprian’s ecclesiology, as taught in the Canon of the Council held in 258 AD at Carthage, as well as Canon 66 (uncorrupted Greek text numbering) of the 419 AD Council held in Carthage, were both embraced and ratified by Canon 2 of the 5-6th Ecumenical Council of Trullo and Canon 1 of the 7th Ecumenical Council. This ecclesiology is also taught explicitly in Apostolic Canons 46 and 47, and Canons 1 and 47 of St. Basil the Great, which were all embraced and ratified by both the 5-6th Ecumenical Council and the 7th Ecumenical Council in Canon 1 as well.
“When reviewing the teachings of other saints and Fathers on the topic of the reception of the heterodox and the boundaries of the Church, if we find some saints who seemingly contradict the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils on these topics, we should overlook such errors and only hold firmly to those teachings which the Ecumenical Councils have ratified and established as God-inspired and unshakeable” (‘On the Reception of the Heterodox: The Patristic Consensus and Criteria’, pg. 119).
Kissing your right hand,
Maximos
Yeah, without Jay Dyer and Craig Truglia, I would have passed on Orthodoxy as just another Christian denomination that can't properly account for the complexity of doctrine as its contained in the Bible.
Listening to those guys debate demonstrated how many of my previous assumptions didn't make any sense. Very grateful for them.
Cyberdoxy... LoL. I am grateful Father. Thank you for the blessing your Eminence
I think rather than berating this or that commentator or critiquing their style of argument or evangelism (understanding that we can’t be stupid or harsh in outreach) we instead focus on our parishes being welcoming. My wife and I visited a well known GOARCH church while we were both LCMS Lutherans, and were looked upon as lepers (no Greek no welcome) except by the priest. Never set foot in there again, but. I became Orthodox via an OCA parish only ten miles away from the GOARCH church. Totally different reception. Been blessed to be an Orthodox Christian since 2016; my wife is still LCMS, but has been amazingly supportive of me in my journey home. Pray she crosses over.
Thank you for this, Metropolitan Jonah. I've gotten a lot from this series
“It’s really critical, it’s essential, that we move away from antagonistic, aggressive arguments about the Faith.”
Thank you, Vladyka, for having enough love for us and courage to say this to us 🙏🏼
The problem with this is that the past century of avoiding antagonistic, aggressive arguments has largely been ineffective at bringing people to Christ. Moreover, Christ was incredibly antagonistic and aggressive toward the Pharisees and Saducees. I don't necessarily have an opinion regarding Jay Dyer and the other Orthobros because I never listened to them much during my conversion from atheism to Orthodoxy, but there is really no argument against how effective "aggressive and antagonistic" rhetoric is at bringing people to Christ in today's degenerate, nihilistic society.
@@noicemanDid Christ spend more time debating those who didn't want to listen or showing the fruits of the spirit and teaching those who came to Him to listen?
Sorry if it’s already been asked. May I have a link to the article that’s read / discussed in the 2nd video?
Along with the scriptures, church fathers and some other books, The Lord has used online content from people like Jay Dyer, Orthodox Christian Theology, (Craig T.), Fr. Peter Heers and Fr. Josiah Trenham to show me the heterodoxy of the evangelical paradigm I lived in for 27 years. And of course helped me become convinced or Orthodoxy. I will be forever grateful for their efforts to reach people via this incredible missionary tool called the internet. Maybe people like Jay or Fr. Peter aren’t for everybody, but I don’t think they do or say what they do out of hate. A lot of the time the issue it just that we live in a culture that is weak and can’t hear hard truths. I knew intuitively when I became convinced of Orthodoxy that I would need to be baptized. I’m not offended by that and I don’t understand why there are so many representatives of Orthodoxy that are soft on baptism of the heterodox. At least in my case, I “got saved” and said the prayer at a baptist church, was later baptized by a Presbyterian pastor, and my understanding of the gospel centered more on Penal Substitution view of the cross and I definitely didn’t view baptism as regenerative (was only a symbol). I look forward to the day I complete my catechumen process along with my Wife and kids and be baptized in the near future.
Perhaps that comment about hating Roman Catholics or Protestants was not directed specifically at Jay or others, but that is sort of the impression that one could get from some comments made in this video. Jay is far from perfect, by his own admission, but when he holds someone’s feet to the fire when they won’t make a cohesive argument or keep avoiding his questions, that is loving truth and exposing false teachings that millions of people are still deceived by.
I will agree with what was said near the end of this video about there being the start of a foundation and good things that came from my pre-Orthodox “Christian” experience. I’m thankful that God used that to lead me to this point, but I’m also sad that I spent most of my life lacking so much and even teaching and participating in things that were not from the Lord even though I thought they were. All that to say, evangelicals and Protestants are so used to denominations and what I call ice cream flavor Christianity. If your “loving them into the Church” doesn’t include the message that there is only One church and that there’s ain’t it, then they won’t have much reason to consider renouncing their current flavor of Christianity and embracing something that is very foreign for many of us. I needed that wake up call and I didn’t like it at first, but people’s presentation of truth to me (much of it online), combined with my desire to obey Christ no matter what is what has led me to the Orthodox Church.
Amen!
I would definitely count Fr. Turbo as one of the good ones too. 'The Royal Path' is great! Can't recommend it enough.
This! If Orthodoxy is “just another church”, then there’s no reason to choose that over another “version of the church”. We need THE truth - not just another truth among truths!!
Fr. Peter Heers has no canonical status in any Orthodox church.
@@Jayce_Alexander what bishop he’s under seems to be in limbo right now through no fault of his own… it’s being worked on!
But the Church does have a bit of a history of treating faithful teachers poorly in some instances… I support Fr Peter and pray for his situation to be resolved ASAP
As a convert received into the church by chrismation only a few years ago, I'd like to express my gratitude for this series your eminence, as it's been very spiritually helpful to hear someone of your stature speak on this matter directly as it applies to today's online subcultures, since so many of us recent converts came to the church from the Internet in one way or another🙏.
If you decide to continue this series, maybe consider bringing up Fr Seraphim Rose's thoughts on the matter (as expressed in his letters to Fr Alexey Young), since they resonate with what you're saying and a lot of us American converts hold him in high regard. I also found the story of St Genesius of Rome's baptism to be fairly interesting, as it's rather difficult to explain from the rigorist position, if it's something you'd be interested in covering. Fr John Cox's review of Fr Heers' first book (on Vatican II) was also pretty helpful for putting things into perspective with regards to the history of the church's concept of "economy".
The most important thing, is that the whole Tradition, before, during and after Christ’s time on earth, says unanimously, that it’s a fearful thing to enter into the presence of God and that that there is nothing more repulsive to Him than mixing the ways of the “world” with the ways of Heaven. To be correct and behave poorly is not equally as bad as being incorrect, it is infinitely worse, because the extent to which someone is correct in their belief is the extent to which more is expected of them. St James advises that their not be many teachers for that reason.
Whoever teaches us by their actions that it is compatible with Orthodoxy to insult, mock and humiliate anyone for any reason, is doing something worse than robbing us of the true Faith, they’re normalizing what the whole Tradition says is the most dangerous thing you could possibly do. The silence of Hierarchs and our personal feelings do nothing to change this. We may agree with such people in everything, in fact, I probably do, but we can’t say we love someone if all we do is defend them from any criticism and encourage them to continue doing what Scripture and the whole Tradition warns against the most. If we truly cared about them, we would be the first to risk being insulted and rejected for the good of possibly saving a brother from a terrifying end.
Unfortunately, it isn’t just all that, but hypocrisy, the other thing God went out of His way to make sure we understood he hates more than anything, is also added, when there is constant criticism of everyone who is taken to be misguided, but no criticism no matter how small and undeniably justified is accepted. Not even pointing to the lives and teachings of Christ and the Saints counts for anything. At some point, we are all being put on the spot to either fear and respect God or men, to serve two masters and risk coming to hate the Gospel in order to defend our respect for mortal men or to be clear to ourselves and others about what is obviously compatible and incompatible with the Gospel. “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
If that wasn’t what was at stake, then it wouldn’t be worth writing any of this.
I'm a Protestant, I've been attending a GOC for over a year. Thank you for showing me the difference between rationalisation of God in Theology, and experiencing God through the love of His Church. I haven't attended in a couple of months because I was going to a Greek speaking one then an English only one started up. I'm now stuck between loyalty and understanding. Thank you for the clarity of my knowledge vs truth conundrum.
Pray to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, ask the Mother of God for assistance, and trust in the providence and love of God. God bless your journey!
I think that the contentious and defensive reactions to this video are proving the Metropolitan's point in a way.
You should have read the truly unchristian ones we deleted…
Thank you so much for sharing this. Such good content.
Thank you, I really enjoyed this
I’ll always give credit where credit is due. Jay Dyer has been a massive gem to see the legitimacy of Orthodox Christianity. How to defend it and to grow intellectually.
I’m pretty sure that Jay would agree that the journey doesn’t begin and end with him. The spiritual battle is after that.
I’ll fully agree that one has to be cautious. Like I wouldn’t send my nephew to the “full Jay experience” cuz there are some things that I don’t agree with. But I’ll always have clips to send my nephew of Jay covering certain topics.
Like anything online, take what’s gold and filter accordingly for what’s best for someone
There's plenty of Jay's stuff I dislike, but he was instrumental in bring me to the Church, alot of his content is wildly helpful. I understand his approach isn't for everyone, but personally that's what got me, the harsh approach he has resonates with my personality, gentleness never would have tbh. We can find problems in literally everyone, but we're not supposed to hate yhe people, not matter how much we want to.
@@mlladavynauckland1622I am a young high energy man and Jay's approach resonates with me. It's not boring, it's not too polite, he gets to the point, and he's converting people, converted my friend. It's a hands on approach. How else would young people even hear about Orthodoxy?
@tapio906 God bless you!
@@Sainthermanofalaskastaffordva Thank you! Please pray for my lowly American soul if you have time tonight, my name is Herman. I am adding you guys to my prayer list as well.
I also have to say that it takes a lot for me to defend Jay at all, because he insulted one of my monk Fathers on social media and this made me very angry at first. But I have come to love Jay, not because he is caustic or rude, but because he defends the faith with vigor and because he is my spiritual brother. At the end of the day, though, I am not confessing to Jay, I am confessing to Christ in the presence of my Confessor, and when I go through a bad break up, I'm not going to Jay to help me stay alive, I'm going to my monk Father, who gives his life every day to serve the Church, and I know will not abandon me in the wild.
I became Orthodox when I learned that it had apostolic authority going back to the apostles and is THE Church. The only online Orthodox content I saw before converting was an interview with a priest who was laying out all of that information. I think some of the online Orthodox content is not that helpful, but a lot of it certainly is.
I came to Orthodoxy through people like Jay Dyer, Fr. Peter Heers, Orthodox Meme Squad etc. Young people flocking to Orthodoxy in America are coming for very specific reasons. There are many well intentioned clergy who still do not understand.
I think it can be a great tool to gain initial insight but we have to be careful with what we take as full fact and what we take as diverging further into with our own research, etc. As my uncle Fr Steve has put it, while the internet and TH-cam resources can give a lot of insight, if you’re not careful then it can also provide a lot of false things too. And someone who hasn’t even spoken to a priest yet won’t know what’s right or wrong. They take it as right many times and now when they’re catechumens it has to be re taught.
If people are flocking to Orthodoxy because of memes then we are in some serious trouble... no wonder American Orthodoxy is so juvenile
Those specific reasons often have nothing to do with Orthodoxy but rather adopting an ethic (and being seen to be doing so) that is perceived as based. Orthodoxy for a lot of these people (myself included) often just becomes a worldview that can be used to justify one's hatred of the world or to assert your own perceived ethical or intellectual superiority against those around you. Glory to God that people are coming to the church, regardless of intention, but I think it is actually the other way around: it is young American converts who do not understand.
@@mikealrodriguez6907 Very well said.
@@mikealrodriguez6907
Well, you’re supposed to hate the world. In terms of stratification, the Bible couldn’t be more explicit about the destructive implications of loving the world in terms of what prevails. If you mean loving the world in the sense of your neighbor, that’s fine. Nevertheless, we’re not called upon to love the beliefs and ideas that our neighbors promulgate. On the contrary, hating what is evil is a biblical commandment, and the great Saints have always inveighed against the unholy precepts that men enthrone as elevating and good. If “young American converts” see things in that way and are less pacified by the dubious notion that this often nebulous idea of compassion elicits, then that might be a positive burst of energy that can lift us above the intense sense of mediocrity which men like Patriarch Bartholomew expressly seek to ossify. I will not soon forget visiting a goarch parish some months ago, and seeing how very few young people attended, and how even fewer young people seemed willing to remain after the liturgy, even momentarily. They had better things to do. And given the sterility of the pushover priest I encountered there, I can’t blame them. But when you saw how highly regarded Bartholomew is there it all started to make perfect sense. Yet in my parish, (holy cross in Linthicum, Maryland), the Church is filled to bursting with “young American converts,” inquirers and catechumens whose desire for Christ is unquestionably earnest. Indeed, there seems to be a correlation between a lack of what you consider piously docile Orthodoxy and an abiding zeal for the faith. A vital and intentional faith has indeed been undermined by the rather uninspiring, passive, safe species of priests and deacons we tend to see at liturgy (His Emminance, Metropolitan Jonah and many others notwithstanding of course). I put much more stock in the zeal of these converts, bereft of their family heirloom solidarity with the faith, than I do in the incessant piety waving that those of your stripe cling to as proof of a more ancient species of holiness. I think in your hands, the church would truly become a relic, attended by senior citizens, and a few of their bored grandchildren.
Thanks for this, Father
Jay Dyer has made a huge impact on internet Orthodoxy and people never heard of it came to it because of him and many others ESPECIALLY Fr. Peter Heers.
Whatever good Fr. Heers may have contributed to the Orthodox world seems to be coming undone by his cultic, schismatic tendencies.
@@jajohnson7809 Fr. Heers is the pope of the Orthobros lol.
19:25 "If someone says they are atheist, the reaction is to want to kill them" - respectfully, which so-called orthobro has ever said this? I understand it is said hyperbolically but what is the point? Seems unfair
To be clear, Metropolitan Jonah was not the one who said this
Yeah does he have any proof?
He’s a former atheist. Atheists are always fixated on this idea that Christians delight in their damnation, or in their death. And so the fact that he speaks in that language, referring to his former identity, is not surprising. Sadly he seems to have carried much of that attitude into Orthodoxy such that the unapologetically doctrinal are cast as callous and mean spirited. 🤷
@@MaximusWolfethe person stating this is actually an ethnic Eastern Slav cradle Orthodox, and not a former atheist.
@@crosmanchallenger1
I realized that after I wrote my comment. Got him confused with the other fellow (the former atheist Augustinian Jay Dyer hater). Retracted. My apologies.
@orthodoxdill-ev3sm
But that flies in the face of so many biblical figures and saints who underwent radical change, precisely because their discomfort was anything but slight. These suffered some of the most severe kinds of spiritual and intellectual wounds only insofar as they were met head on by the “sword” and “enmity” which Christ, by His own correction of your tenor, came to institute (Math 10:34-36). We should not forget that it was Christ who was present and active when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed or when Ezekiel 25:17 was uttered. There are saints in our church, who spat in the face of emperors, who slapped the face of heretics, who underwent torture in order to be purified of their worldly detritus. For whatever reason, coming to the truth can be (needs to be) the result of devastation, shattering and the most grueling sort of woe. So I respectfully disagree that a persons former world view need always be erased by gentle accretions. We are not called to be Boanerges in order to constantly coddle persons according to their secular perspective on polite discourse. Perhaps some are engendered to faith by this petting but most are in need of the very lacerations that only our hospital (Church) can then heal. Christ came to call the sick not the healthy. But those people are completely unaware of the fact that they are sick, that they are dead. Awakening them to that reality is perceived by the extreme majority as harsh and impolitic. So be it.
30:00 on hearing this my first thought was that there is not a concise and robust in-between. Things seem grey for lack of finely detailed vision. Such vision is not available to all, so we can allow the distinction to rest with its proper master. However the whole foundation of the argument is that there is a basic truth which we must respect. The disagreement is on how that is done.
Fr, around 5:40 you said that "The Church can recognize the Sacraments of the Church even if theyre done outside of the Church." In recognizing these things among others such as certain communities not in communion with Orthodoxy maintaining Apostolic succession, does that mean that the position of the Church is that these "sacraments" performed outside the Church unite those people to the Body?
Jays stuff came at a time when there was a thirst for it, and the banning of Stefan Molyneux from youtube at the time was a great benefit to Jay. Both those guys are high on their own farts, but they definitely had some edifying content to offer in the techno-wasteland of that day. Stefan is still dropping great stuff today, BTW.
I remember calling out Jays offensive behaviors as ruthlessly as he would present them and always encouraged others to do the same. I think he has toned it back, but I don't think has yet internalized why. You can push your enemy out of the way of an oncoming train with lovingly ruthless ferocity - or you can push him in front of the same with damning hatred. That probably illustrates the differences in approach - and the mark of hatred is absolutely unacceptable for someone adhering to the faith.
No one ever outgrows the schoolyard, and nerds really don't understand the proper application of male aggression. For the most part they really have little experience with it in the wild; You can see the difference pretty clearly when you watch his discussion with Tristan Tate for example.
I remember when he got into his beef with the ex-freemason dude, who unfortunately was quite injured by the ordeal IIRC. I think it was some consolation for him to learn that there are plenty of Orthodox Chtristians - many of which are "cradledox" laymen, who could smoke these cyberdox grifters in about two seconds if they chose to. Hopefully that situation encouraged him to continue his ministry experientially rather than FOB your living room.
Tabulating your ministry through the internet as if the experience of God can somehow be bottled and sold, will probably have some pretty "Dyer" consequences. Not saying its a bad practice, but that stuff really doesn't hold a candle to the depth that's actually there beyond the traditional four dimensions.
It has always been my understanding, of the orthodox saints, that the Holy Spirit, when working throughout creation, it not the same thing as the Holy Spirit illuminating someone at their orthodox baptism and christmation.
What's the point of having Bishops if you aren't going to listen to them? Thank you, Your Grace.
Thank you for this series “Cyberdoxy”. I'm very happy to have found Met. Jonah on here to make sense of this situation has helped bring a lot of clarity for me, he has been a voice of reason for me. I'm waiting for every episode to come out, just finished the newest one.
Also, I love Jay Dyer and Peter Heers, I really appreciate them both. I am especially thankful to Jay for helping myself and others find Orthodoxy, I thank God for that.
God bless you!
I think people don’t understand the difference between “being present” and experiencing “grace”
I really needed to come across this.
Maybe im wrong but i don't believe showing the ways that the truth of the faith can be understood rationally is "reducing the faith to rational concepts" or "mere rationalism". In my humble opinion, it would not be either/or. The truth as I understand it can be understood (on one level and in some capacity) rationally, while there is a deeper part which cannot be. The debates which happen in my experience help people to understand why Orthodoxy is the true faith, but they are not an argument for the faith being merely rational.
We can recognize that Jay Dyer has done a lot of good work and at the same time recognize that he absolutely doesn't represent the Orthodox faith and has a lot of growing to do, as we all do in various ways.
As I understand it, we can recognize the "form" of the sacraments of the heterodox without recognizing the "Grace" itself. Would that be accurate?
“You shall know them by their fruit”
Jay has brought in thousands
So has the EP, should we praise him and his shamefulness too?
Yeah I’m not sure that’s the context of that passage.
@kyrieeleison7535 Aaaand you proceed to demonize not only thousands of people, but thousands of Orthodox people. The Dyer Derangement Syndrome is real.
I value a lot of what Jay and those like him do, but it seems to me spiritual fruit is not weighed in terms of the numbers of people intellectually won to our position. Spiritual fruit I think would have more to do with Galatians 5:22-23.
Evangelical mindset is hard to shake huh
If Fr. Heers' view on baptism is wrong,why is Jordanville selling his book on the topic? What is Vladyka Luke's view?
@@3devdas777 this is very disturbing to me as a new convert, seeing Met Jonah take this ecclisiological position in opposition to what I THOUGHT was the consensus amongst faithful clergy
@@WoodchuckNorris.8oit isn’t the consensus. At all. And never was. Metropolitan Jonah is correct
@@WoodchuckNorris.8oJason Hunt on a canonical synodal level in the 21st century only the Georgian Patriarchiate, and ROCOR have adopted the 1765 Council in receiving all converts by baptism only. Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Bulgaria, etc. have not and receive converts in three different forms (Baptism, Chrismation, or Confession).
Athos is an entirely unique category, and does follow the 1765 Council.
This was mentioned in tonight’s class, Part 3, that will be posted soon, Lord willing.
@@3devdas777How can you say Met. Jonah “refuses to read” the book? He hasn’t of yet even addressed the book.
This is an amazing educational conversation thank you for posting it. It provides access to amazing wisdom to those of us in other parts of the world.
Thank you.
13:25 st theophan the recluse speaks precisely against your position and "orthodox wisdom" reads the excerpt in his video "on truth and love- st theophan the recluse". Are you aware of this?
can you send a link? Cause I'm lazy. thanks
We Americans are ate up with the sin of pride. The extremes show but it is woven into us from birth in this land. I don't know, I am lowly, but if we do lose a debate, argument, or fight, we have to turn and get away from there as quickly and completely as possible. Think about that. There is a nation of bountiful harvest right now, reap where you did not sow
Yes, but obsequious, sanctimonious, superficial forms of humility can be every bit as pernicious. Sometimes cowardice in the face of Gods blasphemous enemies can be camouflaged by the pious veneer of humility. I will always take someone who may be telling the truth a bit more harshly than is deemed necessary by the secular world, over someone who is afraid to speak the truth, lest they offend someone who needs it the way a man lost in the desert at noontime needs water. I honestly think a lot of Orthodox Christians could stand to be a bit more forceful in their opposition to erroneous doctrines both within and without. This was particularly obvious during the Covid hysteria, when so many Orthodox, who saw how incredibly unsound the science behind these totalitarian measures were, didn’t have fortitude enough to confront their fellow parishioners, who were going along with the entire program so credulously and thankfully despite the mutilating effect it was having on our doxology.
Thanks🌹
Thank you for speaking on this important topic. Have you had the chance to read the book "On the Reception of the Heterodox: The Patristic Consensus and Criteria"? I read it recently, and was really impressed by how thorough it is, as well as its respectful tone.
This is something that very much needs to be said. I am an Orthodox catechumen and my journey to orthodoxy was prolong by probably one year by the arrogance of one coverts’s online behavior
What did I do to you?
@@JayDyer Lol it wasn’t you, don’t worry.
@@JayDyer But you should pay attention to this video
@@davidtorres7823
You didn’t answer Jay’s question.
@@MaximusWolfe I think that’s probably because David never stated Jay did anything to him.
As a former (baptized) Catholic convert who was received by Chrismation, I am grateful to hear this issue addressed. Thank you for all you do.
🙏🏻☦️❤️
Love you and miss you Father Jonah.
"The Church’s anathema throws disobedient persons from the salvific flock of Christ, which remains with the same fullness of grace-filled gifts (…) The Orthodox Church always taught through the mouth of the holy fathers and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils that there is no communion with grace-filled life in Christ outside her and that one receives His [Christ’s] gifts only in her bosom and that outside of her there are no bishops, nor priests, nor mysteries." --- Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky), First Hierarch of ROCOR
So no one has lived a grace filled life with Jesus outside the Orthodox Church? Sounds like a pretty tall claim. I believe it was the grace of Christ that brought me to the church in the first place.
@@IAMFISH92 There is no grace in heretical sacraments outside of the Church. This is enshrined in the canons and ecumenical councils.
@@orthodoxtraditionalists I didn’t say anything about sacraments. My question is simple: does no heterodox Christian encounter grace from Christ? Yes or no.
@@IAMFISH92 The Holy Spirit acting out side of the Church to draw people to his true Church of course. That is not the same as recognizing that these heretical bodies that have been Anathematized as having "apostolic succession".
@@orthodoxtraditionalists No one in the comments, or the video, recognized heretical groups as having VALID apostolic succession. Maybe watch again?
I think the Metropolitan is trying to get across the broader consensus view of the holy fathers, hammered out over many centuries, that "schismatics" properly speaking (in the sense that St. Basil uses the term, and which he distinguishes from heretics who believe in a completely different deity), even those schismatics with heretical aspects of their confession, can and ought to be received by the second or third rite, because their valid baptism, received outside the Church, becomes saving and efficacious for them upon their uniting to the Church. The late economic theory of the sacraments is simply that-- late, local, and produced in a time of great upheaval for the Greek Church, and which was never accepted outside the Ottoman Empire.
Blessed Father Daniel Sysoev:
“The sacraments of heretics are recognized by the Fathers of the First, Second, Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils. Among the Fathers of the Church - St. Stephen of Rome, St. Vincent of Lerins, Blessed Augustine, St. Basil the Great, St. John of Damascus, St. Mark of Ephesus, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Philaret of Moscow, and are rejected by St. Cyprian of Carthage and St. Hilarion Troitsky.”
St. Tarasius points out during the Acts of the Seventh Council that St. Meletius was “ordained by the Arians; yet, when he ascended the pulpit and preached the consubstantiality, his ordination was never disapproved.” (Acts of the Seventh Council)
Further, he states, “What say ye to Anatolius? Was he not President of the fourth Ecumenical Council, and this although he was ordained by the impious Dioscorus in the presence of Eutyches himself? May we not then, admit those who have been ordained by heretics, since Anatolius was thus admitted? And again, it is the undoubted voice of God, that the children shall not die for the fathers, but each one shall die for his own sin. And moreover, consecration is from God.” (Ibid.)
“The greater part of those who sat in the sixth Ecumenical Council were ordained by Sergius, Pyrrhus, Peter, and Paul, prime movers of the heresy of the Monothelites, because that they, in succession, obtained the chair of Constantinople; and from Peter, the last of these, to the time of the sixth Council, was a space of fifteen years, during which period John, Thomas, and Constantine, who were also high Priests in succession, received their orders from the heretics aforesaid, but no objection was ever raised against them on that account: now this heresy continued for upwards of fifty years. Nevertheless, the Fathers of the sixth Council scrupled not to condemn all the four above-named heretical Patriarchs, though they had been ordained by them.”
Thank you ! Amen.
“It’s really critical, it’s essential, that we move away from antagonistic, aggressive arguments about the Faith.”
Waiting for Jay to tweet that Met Jonah has been subverted by the CIA. 😂
I allowed Jay Dyer to drive me from Orthodox enquiry for 5 years. Glad I'm back.
Jay Dyer is the reason my family attends an Orthodox Church. But I will say now that he has convinced me I try not to over-listen to him because it makes me be snippity with people. I like listening to David Patrick Harry for this reason as well as Jays wife Jaime. I also try and listen to actual Fathers like this channel
genuine orthodox church
38:00 Vladyka, you misrepresent what St. Silouan said on that occasion. He did not say "do they have sacraments? do they have Eucharist?", but rather "do they have service to God in their churches, do they read the word of God"? And the reply to that anonymous missionary Archimandrite: "... they do well to go to church for services and pray at home, and read the word of God, and the rest, but here and there they have a mistake, which has to be corrected, and then all shall be good; and the Lord will rejoice about them; and so we will be saved by the mercy of God" [implying that without correcting the error there will be no salvation - in my own interpretation of this place. I don't have English text, translating back from Russian.]
Hatred is a passion that needs to be in check.
Hating evil is a good thing (ROM 12:9-16).
“There is a a time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to keep silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.” -Ecclesiastes
“And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.”
Ezekiel 25:17
Point being, love being always and ever interpreted in this almost secular sense of petting people until they agree with you is difficult to justify biblically or patristically.
Hatred is a virtue if directed the proper way: towards one's sins. Towards other's sins too, but judging others lays too close.
Thank you to Metropolitan Jonah for weighing in on these divisive topics. We need more hierarchs to do this.
@@MaximusWolfeI mean, presumably if his Eminence’s position fell more towards your opinion on this topic you would probably be a bit more excited, right? We should all take the opinion of the hierarchy a bit more seriously than laymen and lower clergy orders regardless of where they fall, but I think it’s pretty human of us to be more enthusiastic when their opinions align more so with our own. None of us are free from bias, unfortunately. Met. Jonah stayed rather neutral throughout this whole talk, and he has a working friendship with Jay and company. In fact, I think Jay even falls in line with his Eminence in certain areas, particularly in regards to the reception of the heterodox. I remember a conversation Jay had with Fr. Peter a number of years ago where Fr. Heers took a hardline approach to baptism and Jay kicked back quite a bit (as Jay himself was chrismated into the church in ROCOR). These things are fluid. We can disagree about certain things without it having to turn into an “us vs. them” type of deal. Also, before Ben commented on this video thanking his Eminence for speaking on the topic, Jay was already patrolling the comment section and making remarks ostensibly chiding people for simply sharing their experience in watching his videos. It looked as though Jay took offense at what he perceived to be an attack on his character. I’m not faulting Jay for this. Again, it’s part of our fallen nature to want to be right and to defend ourselves when we feel attacked. Let’s at least try and recognize this and give people the benefit of the doubt.
@@IAMFISH92
I made that comment with specific regard to “Theoria.” That channel has been consistently fraught with protestantizing and liberalism. He scours for anyone in authority or in a position of influence to redeem his ecumenist bent and grow his audience so as to guide them into false teachings. He is famous for this and correctly so.
@@MaximusWolfe That’s a lot of accusations there. My advice would be to let truth play out. If your genuine concern is for other people to know the truth and grow closer to God then simply allow God to do that. Berating a fellow Orthodox brother on a comment section of TH-cam isn’t going to win anyone over. I happen to like Theoria, Jay, even Fr. Peter (in so far as he is obedient to his bishop which is kind of a problem right now), and others.
We take what’s good and leave the rest. Simple as that. We don’t need to ascribe motives or character assess people simply because we disagree with them. If Theoria is wrong about some things, which he is, it could just as easily be that he’s honestly mistaken in his positions. Why does everything have to be some nefarious conspiracy related to “subversion” or some other such thing?
I used to be more neutral and charitable to Ben Cabe aka Theoria, but he is exactly as @Theosis70 says @@IAMFISH92
it's not about being wrong, it's about motive.
St. Cyprian is my patron saint, but he was wrong on the reception of converts. I'm surprised people are latching on to his teaching because it has been rejected by the church. First of all, he made the grace of the sacrament dependent on the worthiness of the priest. So if a priest is secretly a wicked man, the sacraments he dispenses are valueless. Secondly, he rejected all baptisms outside the church, a position which the Ecumenical Councils rejected. Obvious example: He rejected the baptisms administered by Novatians, but the councils rejected them. So no matter how you cut it, St. Cyprian's teachings on this matter have not been received by the church.
Those who are pushing this issue have a loud microphone on TH-cam, where few oppose them, but there are plenty of good arguments against their position.
th-cam.com/video/NAEfPli4r7o/w-d-xo.html
> First of all, he made the grace of the sacrament dependent on the worthiness of the priest
When did he do this
@@Giorginho, he actually does it in a bunch of his letters. But the first example that comes to mind is letter 68 paragraph 5, where he says that if Pupianus' calumnies of him are true, the people have lacked a priest and all of his priestly enactments were devoid of grace.
Saint Cyprian being a Donatist is news to me.
@@SeraphimGoose, he was not a Donatist (too early for that in any event), but his writings later helped fuel the Donatist movement. St. Vincent of Lerins said in his Commonitorium, "And O marvellous revolution! The authors of this same doctrine are judged Catholics, the followers heretics; the teachers are absolved, the disciples condemned; the writers of the books will be children of the Kingdom, the defenders of them will have their portion in Hell. For who is so demented as to doubt that that blessed light among all holy bishops and martyrs, Cyprian, together with the rest of his colleagues, will reign with Christ; or, who on the other hand so sacrilegious as to deny that the Donatists and those other pests, who boast the authority of that council for their iteration of baptism, will be consigned to eternal fire with the devil?"
“The church can recognize the sacraments of the church even they’re done outside the church”.
I LOVE THIS CLARITY. Now, without naming names there are those (on the internet) who have gained a massive following and seemingly take the opposite position. I see it causing a lot of harm and damage to the faithful. Lord have mercy!
Edit: Halfway through and I see someone mentioned Fr. Heers by name. That is indeed who I’m referring to in my comment.
“The devil spread three tentacles tο capture the whole world. The rich to catch them with Masonry, the poor with communism and the religious with ecumenism.”
-Saint Paisios of Μount Athos
@@robertgillum6674 Ok. What does false ecumenism have to do with what I said? You can’t just level the accusation of ecumenism at everyone you disagree with.
Have you read that new book on this topic? On the Reception of the Heterodox? I have, and it was pretty thorough and convincing.
@@basilp5179 Read the sample available online. I’ll say this: the historical case against baptism of the heterodox is much better born out through the history of the Church and the saints individually. Also, I find it very disingenuous that no one was willing to even put their name on the book. He doesn’t have a bishop and as per the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of America he teaches the faithful OUTSIDE the bounds of the church. I can’t be certain, but this is what I believe is the impetus for not putting his name on the book. He’s leading many young converts astray.
@@IAMFISH92to say that there are sacraments outside of the Church is the definition of ecumenism.
Watch Jay and you'll see his humility, his avoidance of false piety, his dedication to others. His character was an inspiration to me as a catechumen even more than his video work, and his video work is great.
"his humility" 😂😂😂😂 nice joke
@@Calciu_83 Have you not recently noticed Jay in his streams, saying things like "I'm not saying that you are like that" or "I'm not trying to be mean," etc.?
Do you think that when Jay begins his streams saying, "This stream isn't for you to tell me that I'm mean," that he isn't actually hurting when he says that? You can visibly see that he is.
The brother is trying his best and needs our prayers, not our piety signaling.
@@Calciu_83 get help
@@David-kz2im exactly. I wonder how many of his critics actually pray for him?
"his humility"
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
RC’s and other heretical groups such as the Mia’s etc do not have apostolic succession. Not even a question. The fact that this is flirted with in this video is disturbing. Apostolic succession is not simply the laying on of hands, but a passing on of the faith “BISHOP TO BISHOP”. The sacrament of ordination is non-existent in heretical groups, therefore, there is no BISHOP, nor a valid priesthood. . . Like the Creed states: “ONE holy, catholic, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH” . . . not “many” apostolic churches.
There are no sacraments outside of the body (The Church), or is Christ divided? Same Nestorian heresy, different day. . . nothing new under the sun. God have mercy on us. Galatians 5: 19-21; St Paul doesn’t skate around the question of what the fate of the heretics will be.
🙏
"But we set our seal likewise upon all the other holy canons set forth by our holy and blessed Fathers […] and those of Carthage. […] Moreover the Canon set forth by Cyprian, Archbishop of the country of the Africans and Martyr, and by the Synod under him, which has been kept only in the country of the aforesaid Bishops, according to the custom delivered down to them. And that no one be allowed to transgress or disregard the aforesaid canons, or to receive others beside them, supposititiously set forth by certain who have attempted to make a traffic of the truth. But should anyone be convicted of innovating upon, or attempting to overturn, any of the afore-mentioned canons, he shall be subject to receive the penalty which that canon imposes, and to be cured by it of his transgression."
-- Canon 2 of the Fifth-Sixth Ecumenical Council, Concerning the Canons, Councils, and Ecclesiology of Saint Cyprian.
Pope St. Stephen ruled that the decision of St. Cyprian was erroneous, and he, together with Firmillian, would have had more respect towards the decision of the Pope St. Stephen if they had more wisdom towards it. As many heretical sects propagated error concerning the mystery of the Holy Trinity and they didn't baptize in the name of the Three Divine Persons, there was cause to presume that heretics altered the form of this sacrament (Cf. St. Ildephonsus of Toledo, De Cog. Bap. ch. 100). St. Cyprian quoted the Marcionites that baptized in the name of Jesus Christ only (cf. Epistle 73). On the other hand, the Pope in his rescript to St. Cyprian appears to not distinguish between the baptism of heretics that altered the form of the sacrament, and that of the heretics that observed the trinitarian form; from this St. Cyprian would affirm that the Pope gave indistinctly as valid the baptism of two kinds (cf. Ibid), this is a false supposition, for this cf. 50th Canon of the Apostles.
A lot of Protestant critics like Blondel, Basnage and Mosheim speak of this dispute with passion and infidelity that characterize them. They say that Pope St. Stephen acted in these circumstances with a lot of pride, loftiness and obstinacy, which is clearly not the case as the Council of Arles in its Canon 8 shows.
@@pensamientos_escritos And no where in any Ecumenical Council was Stephens Ecclesiology "sealed" by an Ecumenical Council. Unlike Saint Cyprian.
@@orthodoxtraditionalistsFalse, there are Councils, for example, Trullo which validates the Council of Carthage of 419. And now if you say, "well... the new book of Fr. Heers addresses this", false. So much that the Council of Constantinople in 1484 used it, the Great Council of Moscow of 1667 (which the anonymous author, but I presume Fr. Heers is involved with, dismisses as not being authoritative despite Moscow 1718 and the previous Council in 1655 affirming the same, so much that during the sessions Athonite manuscripts were used exclusively to prove that rebaptism of Latins was an innovation per Metropolitan Paisius of Gaza and Patriarch Macarius III of Antioch, Professor Kaptarev and other first-hand witnesses and historians), and others saying it is binding. That you don't know how to interpret the context of the writings, or the Ecclesiology being discussed based on poor academics, and low-tier historical revisionism which Fr. Peter Heers is known for, is not my problem, gave you the sources to look for, your move.
Reminder to stay charitable or we will remove comments. 🙏🏻
@@3devdas777 The Council of Milevis disagrees.
It's funny though, many evangelicals follow Christ because of their experience, not because of theology. "Protestant" doesn't capture all those who are not apostolic. In fact, many evangelicals are proud they don't trust reason and "logic". Did Luther not say, "reason is a whore" ?
Jay is just not a grey beard yet.
The word "cyberdoxy" sounds cool lol
Haha
Superdoxy sounds even better lol
Cheer up
œcumenisme ?
Is it really helpful to be speaking only negatively about Fr. Peter Heers's efforts to spread what he's learned from his athonite elders?
If someone feels that his arguments should be more nuanced, or more charitable toward other interpretations of eccliesiology, that's fine.
It seems however that he's being treated as an enemy of the orthodox faith, and is spreading hatred of others. From what I've experienced personality from him, he deeply loves the faith, the flock and especially the grace bearing elders at whose feet he has been struggling to learn to live his faith.
I deeply respect the things that are being said here, but I wish there was more of an acknowledgement of the fact that someone like Father Peter is not speaking from merely his own opinion and is laboring much to help many others who are struggling in their spiritual life.
I'm all for criticism, but it would be encouraging to show a bit more charity for the side, especially if you feel that Fr. Peter should do the same
Telling people to disobey their bishops and priests is setting himself up as a sort of "Pope of Cyberdoxy". By telling people to not listen to the men who have apostolic succession, he is essentially telling his followers to place themselves in schism with the rest of the Church. He even has secret meetings where he tells people to not tell their clergy they attend.
@@govols1995 The latter accusation sounds a lot like murmuring, speculation and gossip. That's more of my point than anything. The tone is way less Christian than anything I've heard Fr. Peter say.
BTW, my spiritual life was saved by finally being convinced to disobey my old priest who was exhibiting abusive behavior.
The reason for an exhortation towards disobedience makes all the difference.
@@petehoyle8687 The latter "accusation" was confirmed as happening by a ROCOR Archbishop who had received multiple complaints about it from multiple priests.
And there is a difference between an abusive priest, and what Fr Heers does, which is tell people their chrismation is not good enough and will doom them to Hell unless they disobey their bishop and sneak to a monastery for a "corrective" baptism.
I will be obedient to my Father but please allow me to add my thoughts. Blessed St. Herman pray for us. We have to contend with a very different world than the one the Alaskan natives had to. While they probably rarely read books, we are immersed in a virtual world of ideas which is nearly inescapable. In order to have any outreach at all or to answer the multitude of new ideas and tie them back to heresy, there needs to be some penetration into the culture to disseminate Orthodoxy to the "natives" or all they will see is satanic smut. "Cyberdoxy" is achieving this. I would not even know Orthodoxy exists, even though one of my best friends is cradle Orthodox, and there is a local Orthodox Church in my town, if I had not been introduced through "cyberdoxy". Of course, going to Church every week and taking part in the life of the Church is more important but without people like Jay Dyer we may not be seeing the surge of converts we are seeing now. Im not trying to change Orthodoxy but it often feels like we are afraid of evangalizing. In an age where people are so disconnected that even next door neighbors dont know each other, how else are we supposed to achieve growth? How can we convert curious people if we are afraid to talk about God because we might accidentally get something wrong? Is it good to assume that people wont accept a rational and cohesive argument and therefor we should only target their emotions? We need people who resonate with young people, know how to navigate this generation's culture, and can pull people out of the abyss and into Orthodoxy. If you want young people to change their ways and start listening to their elders, they will probably learn that from someone like Jay first, because they need someone they can resonate with to start them on their journey.
Thank you, Father.
Some good things and some disappointing. We will see in 2025 and during next lockdowns and what not, who will do what and this will be the measurement.
What was disappointing?
@@IAMFISH92 I understand your curiosity. However, responding to you, would only increase my already strong resentment/upset and I don't want to go there. Hope you can understand.
@@christophjasinski4804 absolutely bro. Much love and respect. God bless you!
Acusing orhers of being motivated by hate seems pretty hateful. I did not judge Dyer and was kind of surprised when i found orthodox like this who do, quickly and harshly.
They will know us by our love. By our actions. Love - as "martyrs and confessors" as one speaker mentioned.
Christ (our foremost exemplar) said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. That He came to sew enmity between persons. Christ called his opposition at various times snakes, spiders, hypocrites, whited sepulcher’s, Dead Man’s Bones, devils, reprobates, liars, brigands, charlatans, etc.
Yet Christ is love personified, enfleshed and unexampled.
It was Christ speaking to Ezekiel in the Old Testament, who said:
“And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know that I am the lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.”
You say they will know us by our love, but that only prompts the question: what is love? It’s very clear from the Scriptures that love, in certain circumstances, can be a sword, a physical confrontation, a pejorative, a rebuke and an admonition. For the money changers love was received as a violent lashing, as a frontal assault and extrusion, for the Pharisees it was being roundly denounced as having betrayed every jot and tittle of their occupation.
Of course love needn’t be these things all the time, but to pretend like it can’t be these at any time is unbiblical and contrary to the wisdom of fathers like St. John Chrysostom who famously said:
“We should not mind offending men if by flattering them we offend God.”
There is a “time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to keep silent and a time to speak. A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.” - Ecclesiastes
Love being constantly portrayed as petting those who who walk in darkness according to a totally subjective, secular and evil sense of righteousness is deceptive and can in fact be quite harmful. We are supposed be “Boanerges (intense electrical discharges that light up an otherwise sable night).” Hard to see how we qualify as that when constantly conflating love with utterly passive, nice notions social interaction.
@Theosis70 um, ok...I don't think my statement precludes anything you wrote above. Relax. Some of your elders in Orthodoxy really *do* know what Love means. Too often anxious converts assume they know the best course of action in a parish when error occurs.
Trust your Orthodox Elders...but ultimately put your Trust in God, to whom all of us will have to give an account.
@@MJS2376
Why you assume I am in an agitated state is anybody’s guess. Nothing in my comment denotes disquietude. I put trust in the example of Christ before all things. So do the elders. I’m not a new convert. We should ape Christ even before we ape the saints for He is the foremost model of manhood.
13:26 "Is this loving thing to tell them they are going to hell". Yes, very much so. It's hatred and murder to lie to the perishing ones they don't need to do what's necessary for their salvation.
The trouble is, what I tell them won't convince them, and likely will have the opposite effect. Life according to the teaching of the Church would be convincing, and I am coming terribly short.
Jay Dyer & Craig Trulia were pivotal to me and my family’s conversion
I think the criticisms of Jay Dyer are tragic. Leave him alone. He isn't claiming to be a Holy Father.
“The presuppositions are fundamentally Protestant” spot on. I get so frustrated watching Dyer et al because it’s all so spiritually dead & rationalistic, and the whole thing is entirely Protestant! It’s like they just adopt the trappings of Orthodoxy. I think it’s like wearing a cloak.
Granted, I’m not even Christian, much less Orthodox. But the whole project seems antithetical to the faith to me.