I always felt so disgusted with my family growing up and I didn't know why. I felt there was something wrong with my parents, something that made me feel disgusted at the core. Something incestful was in the air but I never could pointed out because all ignored what was going on
I'm Hispanic and it's painful to admit that this is a very common way of regarding children, especially among women. Relationships between couples tend to be turbulent (due to the man's own previous commitments to his family of origin), then the mother retreats to their children and takes over them, making them the center of her life, which is a "self sacrificial" gesture very valued in our culture. Phrases like "Men come and go, but this baby will never leave me" or "He is the true love of my life / the only man in my life" are used so often, to the point they're memes already. That's why covert emotional incest is so taboo that you can't even talk about it in therapy. Most counselors are also parents (mothers) and they will likely try to minimize your experience in order to have a secure base themselves. It's so uncomfortable, yet almost impossible to proof that no one will believe you.
I believe you. I know because it happened to me. There’s a great book called “Silently Seduced.” Helped me a lot. I have actually not had trouble talking about it in therapy, though my counselor is white. I have seen some Latino/a counselors downplay trauma online. I think you are right. It’s self protection on their part. It’s also I think a fear of “pathologizing” Latin culture. But this happens in all cultures. It’s just the expression in each that is different, in my opinion. I wish you the best on your path to recovery.
It makes sense now why in so many different cultures men act more like man-child then real men...theres almost no masculinity left.. this comment help understand the world a lot better!👍
My therapist is African, a nun, and I openly talk about my trauma from narc mom and emotionally neglectful dad. I'm also Hispanic and a survivor of covert emotional incest from narc mom. My other 2 sisters drink the Kool aid of delusion. I didn't go to mother's day and instead got dressed and celebrated mother's Day for myself, walked in the mountains, cried for my freedom and former scapegoat self, got myself an ice cream cone and enjoyed the day in peace and solitude. My mom sent me pics of herself and a meme. I had zero FOMO from their celebration pics. The same monkey dance and circus photo as a souvenir. I'll pass.
As a follow on from the comment below from a member of the Hispanic community, I come from a macho Gypsy culture and emotional incest is a terrible issue in Gypsy families too. It's intergenerational. The boys are made into their mother's little princes - often spoiled and allowed to run wild and sow their wild oats, at least until marriage at an unhealthily young age. While the girls are burdened to be virtue keepers of the family. They have to be "good", obedient, very feminine, and virgins till marriage. God forbid if they go astray. Then they'll bring shame on the whole family and be ostracized by the community at large. The wild boys grow up to be immature men, still attached to their mother's teat, who then go on to abuse their teenage brides whom they can't properly love (she's not their mother!). In turn the wives learn to hate their husbands and over-love their sons. So the toxic cycle continues on through the ages.
Thank you! This is so true! After years of psychoanalysis, I am able to hear your message. I hope that I still have time to reverse/escape from that covert incest. So far, I have just begun to put some boundaries between me and my mother. She is not aware what she is doing. She is like a child...Your video helped me put together a lot of answers.
This is absolutely brilliant - I was always miffed why one of my clients for over 7 years now - vacillated between periods of lots of sex to none - and when he wasn’t having sex with an intimate partner even if still in the relationship- he would go to sex workers and seek online sources for self masturbation - when I asked why no sex now - he said he needs to be true to God… but once I unraveled the childhood , I am certain when his father left home at 2 years old and his mother went back to work he was parentified forced to be taking care of a 1 year old sister - no babysitter … and then the emotional incest was clear with an overly religious and absent mother - who he did indeed promise he would never marry anyone - how could he betray God ? So many other factors in you videos match exactly this covert narcissist, who also becomes dynamically borderline if triggered … you nailed it right on the head prof Vaknin - what a mind you have to decider the most of complex cases in personality disorder - I’m without words at such genius - I hope furthering my studies of your perpetual classroom videos will help me to shed light for the loved ones of so many clients 🙏🥰❤️ appreciated ❣️
Listening to this stuff for a couple years now, and I think maybe your comment “she is like a child” is right on target. I feel that, in my family at least, immaturity was the issue. Mature behavior means emotional self-sufficiency. My mom-whom I loved, by the way-was never intentional about making careful, mature decisions. But they didn’t have these tools then either. Hoping things can be different for me and my kids.
Thank you professor. Again. You eloquently, brutally and factually have described the reasons behind my lifelong struggles with intimate partners. For a number of years, through the information you have shared here, I have an understanding of the family dynamics I grew up with. My father who most likely had NPD, my enmeshment and parentification and the codependency I internalized. And now I have another piece of the puzzle. I won't go into my history with him other to say on my wedding day he was still telling me I could change my mind and that I could stay with him forever. I felt a lot of anger towards him at some point in my life as I realized it was his parenting that created his dysfunctional children. My siblings all passed due to self destructive behavior. Never feeling good enough. My enmeshment with him was probably what saved me, not that I didn't abuse substances as well. But now having listened to you for years, I have nothing but love and intense sympathy for him. He was damaged beyond all repair by his mom. You can't give someone something you don't have.
Very insightful. My ex has bpd and severe addiction, emotional incest by his father they would ring each other up to ten times a day he was 32. No ability for sexual or emotional intimacy (sexual fantasies about smoking his mother was a heavy smoker) Saddest most disturbing thing I have ever come across is emotional incest.
As a little girl, I was unwilling to play that nasty game with my mother after her divorce. She never stopped trying, even into my early adulthood. And yet, I replayed that dynamic in almost every relationship I had with men, including both of my marriages. When I finally went to therapy, we did a free-form expression exercise where we would blurt out the first words that popped into our heads. My turn, I said, "I married my mother's penis!" I now see where that statement came from. Still, in all, I WON! It's hard to reel me back in once I have shaken loose from the hook.
It is a sad situation to be in when you are entangled with your parent so inappropriately. Fortunately it was not case with my narcissistic mother because she hated children. She told me many time that she never liked children yet she had 12 children two of whom died when they were babies and one of these babies due to her neglect. So, she preferred us out of the house rather than paying us attention.
My stomach ached when I saw this title. Today is also my mother's birthday, what a coincidence. I always sense that it is something fishy in my relationship with my mother. I had girlfriends but I always kept that for myself and never said a word about it. When my mother first saw me with a girl she was disappointed and I felt guilty like I did some type of crime. I had many opportunities to be in a serious relationship but I always rejected it, my subconscious blocked me because that would be betrayal of my mother, like Sam explained. Fortunately, I heard about this 2 years ago and started reading about it. I confronted my mother and tried to explain this to her but she rejected any dialogue about this elephant in the room. Now I realize that it was impossible for me to have a normal intimate relationship in the past. Today I have a little bit of hope, this individuation can be done but it is not a negotiation, it must be done with understanding of yourself and that whole covert process.
I believe this dynamic is generational trauma at work - at its core. By the time these men reach 30's-40's, it's not even the mother's jealousy anymore. Their distrust of other women, along with what I believe is internalized trauma of the mother or between father and mother, will lead him to act rashly or make poor decisions. In the end, there is only the mother left that seems reliable - the only one who ever really cared. It's a pretty sick catch 22. For myself, I knew since I was a child that my parents could never be my parents. They were too wrapped in their own conflict to truly be involved. My brother and I traded places being the confidante of either mother or father - both needed an ally against the other. At some point I remember feeling that, as much as I wanted to help her, my mother needed me too much, it was too intimate. I pushed her away and became the rebel/outcast of the family. It was only the truth - I knew I had to raise myself anyway. It was a hard road. Now my brother and I are in our 50s, and he is 100% mom's pseudo-partner and defender. It disgusts me at times. I am so glad I said no to that role, even if imperfectly.
this is the reason I refused to have kids. Im incest survivor also parent did emotional incest. Im aware this has life long consequences to my life and potentially everyone around me. The shit what was done to me.. been done for 3 generations already.. I decided to end it. I refuse to do the same and hurt my child or other people`s kids. Will find my purpose elsewhere and try my best to heal , be good person
@@a_new_life_41 when people with trauma backgrounds become parents they think " oh I wont do it to my kids " but.. I have seen the opposite.. most of the cases actually one way or another have very toxic parenting style and they will hurt their kids why is this? because they rushed to have kids and didnt do the healing now kids will suffer AND kids will parent to THEIR parents when it is suppose to be other way around! and THAT IS EMOTIONAL INCEST! also noticed that a lot parents.. create their full identity being a parent.. they become codependent to their kids! when kids become adults and will have their life, their own kids.. the parents have nothing to do and become angry to their adult kids which is wrong! you are bored in life? them fuck sake help yourself and find something to do! find hobby, hit the gym, go hiking... take care of yourself parents job is to raise their kids in a way.. once they become adults they can function in life so well that they dont need you anymore! but I see so often parents become codependent from their kids and actually doesnt want them to grow up with this they will destroy their relationship with their kids and grandkids kids are never suppose to take the adult`s burdens but this happens so often! parents are not aware that they self sabotage their relationship with their kids with this.. then they wonder why kids doesnt want to deal with them or they possibly... want to stay Childfree... why? cause they fucking spend their CHILDHOOD to be parents to their parents and werent allowed to develop IDENTITY! this were my case too! so yes if someone has trauma background the most important what they must do first is: SELF mastery! figure out who you are then.. since parents didnt do their job how to function in life and decided to bring another victim in the rat wheel so they can feel better about themselves.. unfortunately you have to teach yourself how to be functional, productive adult. Just imagine: if no one teach you the basics in life and you struggle in life.. how you can teach healthy life habits, smart financial choices to your kids when you dont know yourself? nope you wont or lets compare this to birds: if birdy parent didnt learn how to fly.. how the fuck he can teach that to his babies how to fly? the most crucial skill for the species? they all will fall down to cliff and die lol! if parents are not careful YOUR fears will become YOUR child`s fear that will haunt them for the rest of their life and when im thinking about this.. I cant live with the pain knowing that person who I was suppose to protect and love.. I was the very person who mainly destroyed their life I`d rather not take that risk... more time pass more grateful I am for not doing it
Emotional incest between my husband & his mother explains why my husband has always emotionally neglected &/or abused me (demonizing, criticizing) throughout our 32 year long relationship, married for 28. As a scapegoat child to a narcissistic mother (absent alcoholic father) being emotionally neglected was normal for me. It was a perfect setup for our relationship because it was convenient for him to stay faithful to his mother. But now in recent years I have been informed of & healed from my trauma & his attitudes & behaviors toward me is no longer acceptable to me. This at a time when his vulnerable narcissist mother is at her actual most vulnerable state of being elderly & recently widowed & living with us! Needless to say it has been HELL. This truly may be the end . Very very sad
@9mma32 look within yourself and yoir experiences as you listen to any videos you got this sweetie. find what you love in life. open your mind to yourself Jesus is pretty cool too
For the past two days I have stumbled across this phenomenan and its heartbreaking to realize my whole life has been a lie and that the person I have dedicated my sucess too is my archetype for an abuser....the reason I have so many psychological problems , almost all of which you listed.... And on top of all of that they were a substance abuser and I was also exposed to that world aswell... Substance abuse problems I assume do fall under mental health problems...
And why I acn not have sex with the person I love , but continue to have sexual/romantic fantasies and nightmares about my abuser ex boyfriends... Its absolutely devastating... and the thing you mentioned about taboo sex... man that hit home so much about what makes me aroused and how much it horrofies me
It happens between siblings also. Lost a wife to her shared Peter Pan Syndrome brother. They wear pajamas, eat sweets, watch cartoons and play video games in their mid 30s while their parents work and pay the bills. Her devotion to him is all encompassing.
I'm only 15 minutes in and my blood is boiling. I've been saying these things for the past 20 years, told my parents countless times that I am basically my mother's therapist/big sister since I was 4. I was just a teen when I told her that she took my life away right after giving it to me, even heard a voice telling me to kill her once. Went to the hospital at the age of 31 as I was very suicidal and in 5 minutes the psychiatrist came up with this same conclusion. A lifetime of no connections, no intimacy, no sex, just my mother's depression that I absorbed, loneliness and blind wrath. I am livid for betraying myself, for not listening to myself and my instinct and for refusing help all this time. Is there any chance to overcome this bs or is one doomed for life? Got to the end... Wow the end killed me, what the fuck even is the point of living then.
SO sorry to hear this! Go no contact and start breathing, daily meditation, journaling focus on YOU in every way possible. That is what I´m doing. Sending you love and support!
I’m literally in the exact same boat as you. It’s doesn’t seem like a point to live since we will destroy ourselves and other people anyway because of what happened to us. I’m pretty sure he called us narcissists at the end as well which really sucks. I feel like we are doomed for life. We are forced to stay out of relationships because we can’t properly function in them. We are forced to be alone. I’m so fucked from this I have no idea what to think.
I know. Okay, I appreciate the clarity that Dr. Vaknin gives us. But then he ends the video by offering no hope, no help, or no solutions. He’s basically saying we’re fucked for life and that’s it. What the hell man?! I’m gonna be going to God in prayer about this. I went no contact with my mom about 4 years ago, but I can still feel that bitch’s emotional claws buried into my soul.
💥As a recovering Trophy Child, this is spot on accurate‼️ It's a double whammy when the parent(s) guilty of this violation is/are the same one(s) who try to ridicule and even punish the target for the same damage they caused to begin with, and throw a phrase over it proclaiming "We're trying to help you!" 🤔💭..........Ummmmm.......😃No Thanks👍‼️ 🤬 And let's not even start on the confusion of being put on a pedestal and parentified/adultified as a youth. The parent figures begin acting like children trying to get away with something they aren't supposed to be doing in the fist place‼️ 🤬 It's like......🤔💭.....🤨Huh❓ It's like the parents are inquiring information from the child that the child is supposed to be getting from the parents, just to be set up for a gaslight and have that same information parroted back to them as if it originally came from the parents to begin with‼️ It's like, I QUIT‼️
Is it possible to experience emotional incest from siblings? My sister is 10 years older than me and she’s told me that she’s had to become a parent to me and my other brothers. Lately I’ve felt abused by her because of how much over sharing she’s done with me since I was very young. I felt my voice was silenced and felt like an emotional support pet to her. Over the years I’ve said things to her like I feel like I feel like a punching bag, I feel she transfers her anxieties onto me. Other things she’s said is she doesnt know if she could go on living if I were to die, if she ever dies and she has children she wants her children to go to me, and she can see us living together( when she was well into her 40s), and asking me if I’ll be the one to wipe her butt when she’s elderly. It’s not until recently that I felt manipulated when I noticed she was not receptive to me saying no to her venting excessively to me. I accused her of being manipulative because I felt I’ve given so much of myself and time to supporting her emotionally and on 2 occasions she cried because I wasn’t giving her a special kind of support she wanted from me.
oof i felt allll of that... although we're quite a bit younger, she was parentified by my mom and made to be my second mom, and i grew to resent her the older i got, and now it's just ... awkward because she still expects me to be her little baby but i'm a whole grown ass man who's so emotionally insecure and wrecked.
I am terrified now😢 my 10 yo son told me the other day that when he was younger, he thought he is a girl. I admit I might have been a bit closer than usual, I thought I was compensating his father's emotional absence😢 he wants to hug me all the time. I swear I didn't abuse him, I am aware of that, I want him to be a good partner in the future not an abuser, what do I do to help him 😭
read and watch videos about similar topics to learn more and hopefully help your son. If you are not sure of the boundaries, don't do anything which would not be appropriate to do with a neighbour's 10 year old son. For example, make sure he sleeps in his bed in another room not in your room or in your bed, make sure he baths himself and in privacy not with you, you should not dress undress in front of him, if he is not sure of boundaries, tell him that only he should see his private parts when he is a child and when he is adult it is for his girlfriend to see, do not watch with your son films which has sexual scenes, do not joke about topics below the belt, so to speak. Get him to join an activity club, help him to be with children of his age. the more friends he has the less he will need to cuddle and be dependent on you.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you might have said to yourself you were compensating him (a good excuse to hide your knowledge that something was wrong with your behaviour), when in reality you wanted him to compensate _you_ and soothe you for your lack of a partner.
Sounds like the damage is already done. You won’t be able to explain it to him without destroying him and pushing him away. This is what usually happens to single mothers and there children.
I want to throw up. I feel devastated, traumatized. I usually handle hard things well and can cope with hard to handle things pretty good but this, I’m not doing so well with.
I hear you man. I wish Dr. Vaknin provided a solution. He just ends the video by saying it’s lifelong, like there’s nothing we can do to heal ourselves if we’ve been a victim of emotional incest. Are we screwed for life? Is there not anything we can do to break free? I’m gonna be praying to God tonight about this.
That's why I'm taking this to God. However, one good thing I got from this video is the CLARITY about what happened to me. And the aleviation of guilt for going no contact with my mom. My goodness, the guilty feelings can be so crippling man. Your abuser will do anything to possess you and control you. @@trevnextgen
Thank you, this is very insightful. I just read the book 'Silently Seduced' and together with your video I've understood so many of the conflicts that I've struggled with for as long as I can remember. I've always harbored some kind of disgust towards my mother and never quite understood why. I didn't enjoy spending time with her even when I was little. Any show of affection from her side felt abhorrent. I don't know what caused it, but something saved me from being too enmeshed with her. There's still the constant guilt, shame and not feeling good enough, but by the sound of it, my situation is better than the full enmeshment you talk about in this video. I have a question, if you don't mind: What happens if there's inconsistency in the relationship with the mother for example? I think my mother was very inconsistent with her affection. Ignoring and then being very "loving". I use quotation marks, because it always felt very transactional. She wanted something from me when she was being nice. It's all manipulation and control. There was very little mirroring, I think. She seems incapable of empathizing to a great extent even now. I've recently had to cut contact with her to protect my mental health.
Thank you for your insights & explanations of all these difficult topics. I do appreciate it very much, but sometimes I'm left wondering if there's any way (despite my sincere efforts) to prevent myself from inadvertently damaging my own child, since I am damaged, my parents were damaged, their parents were damaged, etc. I try my best to not repeat how I was raised in any manner, & allow my child to be herself. I really try to avoid laying my baggage at her feet, while still being honest about adults not always being perfect, when I make mistakes. When I don't know how to proceed, I admit it & sometimes we as a family figure things out together, but now I'm hoping in doing so, I haven't parentified her simply because I have difficulty making decisions for myriad reasons, which could take volumes to discuss, lol. It seems like there is a very narrow path when it comes to escaping one's childhood unscathed & mentally sound. I wasn't successful at it myself, I'd like to give her the best chance possible. Is it possible? I hope so.
Dear heart, you are doing exactly what you should do... being human, being honest, and being a good leader... the horse before the cart. I assume you share your adult concerns with adult friends, family, and perhaps a good therapist. You are just fine, my friend!
@@samaralaliaabzu2837 Thank you. I hope that turns out to be true in retrospect. 💜 I have a supportive husband & a couple good friends. I think my therapist days are over. I had a few over the years. More than one was completely dismissive of abuse. The others were not as condescending, but were easily manipulated into believing I was "better." (Let's just say I learned my lessons well as a child about how to tell people what they wanted to hear, when necessary.) Not many have the desire or the ability to discuss mental health issues to the degree that it is presented here, which is why I keep trying to digest it, but sometimes I get easily overwhelmed, not just here, but in general, lol. 💜
The fact that you think about it and you're trying to make sure you get it right is the key. You're doing a good job just by thinking about trying to do better than your parents. My oldest is 14, and it was just me and her for a long time. We're super close but hopefully not so close it holds her back in relationships etc. Her dad and his mother are definitely in some incestuous scenario. That's why I'm watching this video. 😂 Anyhow keep up the good work
@@KellenAdair Thanks. I hope so. Time will tell... If not, it is not for lack of effort, which scares me, as my own narcissistic mother, I can see now, put a great deal of effort into orchestrating what she perceived to be a perfect family in a perfect protected bubble, which was merely a disguise for being trapped in a dysfunctional familial psychological hellscape. Sorry. I didn't intend to reply to your supportive comment with my personal angst, lol. But we've just returned from visiting my mother for Thanksgiving, that time of year where she pretends our family is like a Norman Rockwell painting, but none of the participants are willing to perpetuate the myth any longer. The cracks in the facade have widened into gaps which are held together by false niceties & glued with the Thanksgiving gravy. Exhausting.
This may sound out of topic but this perfectly describes Beau is Afriad. Ari Aster makes allot of films regarding the human condition Hereditary (grief and madness) Midsommar (codependency and indoctrination) Beau is Afraid (Narcissistic abuse and emotional incest)
It was "SO much truth". Sorry, typo. I got feeling a little shy and deleted my comment yesterday. It was all the talk about s-e-x! Nice to know you're there reading. : ) I did get through the whole video. The more I learn, the more things fall into place. I have been feeling quite schizoid myself lately, kinda comforting to know that that is a normal stage.
Dr. Vaknin, the uncanny ability that you have in consistently uploading videos that crack the code for me within ongoing personal issues would have had me believing in your omniscient all-knowing presence, had I not been familiar with your previous lectures on ideas of reference. I could not help but draw many similarities between this phenomenon of covert emotional incest and your paper on the Inverted Narcissist. Both rejection and collusion in the initial Mother - child shared fantasy leads to a life by the latter that is plagued by secondary narcissism. I apologize if I seem to be connecting dots between two unrelated issues; does the ambient confusion of covert emotional incest that you describe work to undermine the primal narcissistic defenses that the vast majority of people have even as children? As well, the child exposed to covert emotional incest seems completely unwilling to betray Mother. In your work on the Inverted Narcissist, there is a brief mention of the possibility in finding a faithful rendition of the IN’s narcissistic primary object. Would this scenario (wherein an inverted narcissist meets a significant other that adheres to the model of the internal object representing Mother) offer an opportunity for the victim of covert emotional incest to explore feelings of intimacy and sexuality? Thank you for your work, I look forward to your notifications daily
That's my first comment after many videos I saw. I'm very impressed with this one. I felt very interested in and uncomfortable at the same time. Not related to me but to people I know well. Still considering: could this be the case of that person? Never know for sure. Thanks for your insightful video. From Brazil 🇧🇷
When my mother was diagnosed with cancer last year (2022) and was in hospital, I telephoned her to ask how she was. She told me that the nurse could not fit the catheter due to having 12 children and the nurse told her that after all her sacrifice, her body shrunk, (meaning her vagina). Catheter is the tube fitted to bedridden patients to gather the urine in a bag. I was so sick of hearing from her again and again, her guilt tripping for giving us birth and due to her sacrifice we should be ever grateful, I told her to stop lying, because If the catheter was put in where the baby comes out, the nurse would say, "you have become as wide as a bag, the tube is not staying in it". My mother, realised I caught her lie, shut up immediately, so the other people in the room would not hear what I said. She has been dead for a year now but I still hate her. May she rot in hell.
That part of her body shrunk because she was older,post menopausal?, and her hormones changed.Which causes vagina shrinking….. Some people continue toxicity even on the deathbed. You can tell a lot about a person by their behaviors toward others when they are in the final phase of their life. Wanting to receive and also give love in their final days speaks well of a person.The desire to cause more pain before they leave this world for others to carry the burden,Doesn’t.
@@macnchessplz The catheter is put in the hole where urine comes out, it is nothing to do with giving birth but clearly she did not know it but lied just to make me feel guilty.
@@macnchessplz when she was in hospital she was constantly drinking water. the doctor told us not to give her water the day before she would have her operation. I explained this to her and said I will not give her water after 9pm on the day before the operation, she telephoned and called all her 9 children, her sisters and relatives and told them that I was her enemy and was not giving her water and she was gasping for a drop of water. She told me if she finishes with her illness, she knows what she is going to do to me, meaning she will disinherit me. (she did not know she had cancer), I did not tell to her face but thought to myself "fortunately you will go to your grave with this illness". Now looking back, I wish I left the bottle next to her bed and let her drink as much as she wanted and leave the reprimand to doctors.
@@macnchessplzit doesn't make sense. Urine doesn't come from the vagina so the tube wouldn't need to go there. It's amazing how many people, even women, don't know this.
@@macnchessplz She constantly complained and blamed everyone around her. I regretted taking 3 weeks off work (which caused issues in the following months) and look after her. I did not have to do it because she had other children who could help her (even if they did out of obligation not because they loved her) but, at the end of the day, she told me I was her enemy for not giving her water (on doctors order). My advise to anyone who has narcissistic relatives, please do not kill yourself to please that person. They blame the ones help, not the ones do not help. You will regret for spending your time, energy and money on such a worthless ungrateful person. I regretted it and got my lesson. I have other narcissist in my family but will not do the same mistake.
Would you make the supposition that borderline is a likely outcome for children who are the victims of this? I am recovering from a 7 year relationship with a woman with bpd. Her mother is insane and I remember pulling up a webpage on jrank that described enmeshment/boundary dissolution/spousification which perfectly described the relationship that her mom had with her and her brother. The parents weren’t intimate with each other and the mom would unload her every thought onto her youngest son (he became an anxious alcoholic). The daughter, who I dated, was always terrified of her mom and was always deprived of any support or independence if she stepped out on being there for her mom. I was never able to help my partner and her mom was a great source of friction in our relationship.
@@samvakninI think this is the case with someone close to me Very close to mother and much older sister. .both died in the last few years and he has just become a stranger to me. I think the sister was also too close to the mother, she died 2 years after the mother did. Complete responsibility for the mother since young, never married or had her own kids. The brother, as far as I see, has just lost his whole identity with both of them gone. It's not normal grief.
While terminology is being applied to it, I have always known that the behaviors exhibited by my parents, particularly my mother, with whom we lived for the great majority of our lives, wasn't right. In fact, I would define it as crippling. I clearly see its impact upon my two siblings and my sister's 4 child who my mother raised. Me? I went into the military and have lived my on life since then. Of course, my mother still attempted to corral me while I was be back for almost 5 years, but I didn't allow it and eventually movef back to Tennessee where life is better and more peaceful. All is well and better without them. Family or not, it's the truth.
I have a question .. why would his mother tell him that she done his daughters hair in pigtails braids bcuz she knows how much he likes them .. he likes them sexually and his mother tries to control him in everything.. we got into a fight and she told him to go home and have sex w me .. who talks like that ? his family is very open sexually and he slept w his parents until he was 12 and him and his brother both hate her but yet they both won’t leave her either .. he left me and moved right back in w his parents
@@hardhatcatboi it’s just his daughter not mine and she won’t have anything to do w a man sexually.. and she married to a women and I’m out of the the horror mess … I’m just waiting for that divorce he promised since I’m such a adulterer that he claims .. I didn’t cheat I was to much in love w him
i fear this was the case with Sinead and her So(u)n. if only she had seen Vaknin in private not Dr Phool on tv....doing my darndest to let "mine" Be....
I also want to ask a question, is autoerotism a must as a defense in emotional incest? As a young child to teen I did partake but always with extreme guilt to tthe point where I no longer partake in any kind of sex (asexuality)
@@samvaknin Ah... I do not partake in masturbation , but to an anorexic point where I am disgusted by the act. BUT out of all this sexual repression I have wet dreams all of the time and find myself engaging in autoerotism while asleep
Y que lo digas... en mi caso desde mi madre hasta mi hermana 🤮 te juro que no puedo tener nada con mujeres sin ser bdsm del asco que me quedó dentro 😂😂 y por lo normal simplemente evito el sexo, prefiero ser asexual antes que eso 🤢
Yo también viví esta m****a, soy una chica italiana. Me gustaría mucho hablar con otra chica que pasó esto para confrontarnos 🙏🏼 si quieres te dejo mi correo electrónico
Mr.VAknin, I watched your video on Emotional covert incest is Lifelong and could really relate to the effects or damage done to the child turned adult.The part about damaging our sexual functioning ( ie., dehumanizing women or only having sexual relations with prostitutes).I believe that I have been affected by this. My question is where can I find this information so that I can inform myself further ? It would be much appreciated. THANKS Ronny
His mother told him when we started dating that he’s got a “nice butt” ew? And she’s been consoling jn him whenever his dad breaks her heart ever since he was a kid, to the point of not liking his father and his father’s relatives for her reasons This is so disgusting
How do you deal with a Sister-In-Law that was her mother's surrogate spouse for almost 20 years and now that her mother is dead, is trying to make your wife (her sister) her surrogate spouse?
I urge you to look up Joseph Nicolossi if you would like to see a different perspective on how homosexuality is formed based on this unhealthy childhood dynamic. At its core homosexuality in men is related to a man’s sense of masculinity being inferior to that of other men.
@@Iamany.BatuanCarl Jung speculated that the man's heterosexuality is unconsciously tied to the mother, in compensation becomes homosexual in his conscious life.
I watched and read the transcript, just now. I only ask because my ex's 15 year old son would come over every 2 weeks to spend time with him. It aways made me feel uncomfortable because he (the son) was constantly kissing his arms, holding his hand, playing with his hair, when we'd watch movies on the couch he'd grab his father's arm and put it between his legs as if hugging his arm...and so much more. I always felt like my ex should have set boundaries, especially with his son being in High School. I never said anything because it wasn't my place, but it made my stomach turn.
Absolutely! That in itself sounds like you are reading too much into it. Perhaps your mother is just expressing her affection in a friendly polite way.
I went through this with my mother. I am 45 and am trying to find my comfort zone with women. I recently started visiting sex workers as a way to explore myself. Is this healthy or unhealthy?
My psychotic narcissistic ex told me once that he saw his narcissistic mother just staring intently at his'man-hood' that was hanging out a little of his very short shorts (he was wearning my shorts at the time🚩) and his reaction to her was - "well thats between you and God" - I realized there and then the extent to what I was dealing with...its both shocking and sickening the relationship between those two🫢🤢😳...that woman hated me the second she saw for the first time - before even the greets and introductions - that hatred grew every second of every day - wish I knew at 27 what I know now at 40 - went through absolute hell with those two...
I always felt so disgusted with my family growing up and I didn't know why. I felt there was something wrong with my parents, something that made me feel disgusted at the core. Something incestful was in the air but I never could pointed out because all ignored what was going on
Yeah, I know what you mean
I'm Hispanic and it's painful to admit that this is a very common way of regarding children, especially among women. Relationships between couples tend to be turbulent (due to the man's own previous commitments to his family of origin), then the mother retreats to their children and takes over them, making them the center of her life, which is a "self sacrificial" gesture very valued in our culture. Phrases like "Men come and go, but this baby will never leave me" or "He is the true love of my life / the only man in my life" are used so often, to the point they're memes already.
That's why covert emotional incest is so taboo that you can't even talk about it in therapy. Most counselors are also parents (mothers) and they will likely try to minimize your experience in order to have a secure base themselves. It's so uncomfortable, yet almost impossible to proof that no one will believe you.
I believe you. I know because it happened to me. There’s a great book called “Silently Seduced.” Helped me a lot. I have actually not had trouble talking about it in therapy, though my counselor is white. I have seen some Latino/a counselors downplay trauma online. I think you are right. It’s self protection on their part. It’s also I think a fear of “pathologizing” Latin culture. But this happens in all cultures. It’s just the expression in each that is different, in my opinion. I wish you the best on your path to recovery.
It makes sense now why in so many different cultures men act more like man-child then real men...theres almost no masculinity left.. this comment help understand the world a lot better!👍
I believe you and agree with you
My therapist is African, a nun, and I openly talk about my trauma from narc mom and emotionally neglectful dad.
I'm also Hispanic and a survivor of covert emotional incest from narc mom. My other 2 sisters drink the Kool aid of delusion. I didn't go to mother's day and instead got dressed and celebrated mother's Day for myself, walked in the mountains, cried for my freedom and former scapegoat self, got myself an ice cream cone and enjoyed the day in peace and solitude. My mom sent me pics of herself and a meme. I had zero FOMO from their celebration pics. The same monkey dance and circus photo as a souvenir. I'll pass.
This is so disgusting. I wish Bill Gates will cause infertility globally.
As a follow on from the comment below from a member of the Hispanic community, I come from a macho Gypsy culture and emotional incest is a terrible issue in Gypsy families too. It's intergenerational.
The boys are made into their mother's little princes - often spoiled and allowed to run wild and sow their wild oats, at least until marriage at an unhealthily young age.
While the girls are burdened to be virtue keepers of the family. They have to be "good", obedient, very feminine, and virgins till marriage. God forbid if they go astray. Then they'll bring shame on the whole family and be ostracized by the community at large.
The wild boys grow up to be immature men, still attached to their mother's teat, who then go on to abuse their teenage brides whom they can't properly love (she's not their mother!). In turn the wives learn to hate their husbands and over-love their sons. So the toxic cycle continues on through the ages.
she used to say, " You are never going to find a mother like me"
you should have said "yes someone as mentally sick as you are"
My ex MIL used to say wait till you move out of the country and then you will miss me lolll the liesss intold her I wouldn't miss her
@@jasonkresock2196I was thinking same 😊
She was right, you only have one birth mother. 😅 She was tormenting you with the obvious.
My mother try to have sex with me multiple time still have nightmares.
That's explained a lot of my spouse "invisible shackle" to the mom.
Thank you! This is so true! After years of psychoanalysis, I am able to hear your message. I hope that I still have time to reverse/escape from that covert incest. So far, I have just begun to put some boundaries between me and my mother. She is not aware what she is doing. She is like a child...Your video helped me put together a lot of answers.
This is absolutely brilliant - I was always miffed why one of my clients for over 7 years now - vacillated between periods of lots of sex to none - and when he wasn’t having sex with an intimate partner even if still in the relationship- he would go to sex workers and seek online sources for self masturbation - when I asked why no sex now - he said he needs to be true to God… but once I unraveled the childhood , I am certain when his father left home at 2 years old and his mother went back to work he was parentified forced to be taking care of a 1 year old sister - no babysitter … and then the emotional incest was clear with an overly religious and absent mother - who he did indeed promise he would never marry anyone - how could he betray God ?
So many other factors in you videos match exactly this covert narcissist, who also becomes dynamically borderline if triggered … you nailed it right on the head prof Vaknin - what a mind you have to decider the most of complex cases in personality disorder - I’m without words at such genius - I hope furthering my studies of your perpetual classroom videos will help me to shed light for the loved ones of so many clients 🙏🥰❤️ appreciated ❣️
Listening to this stuff for a couple years now, and I think maybe your comment “she is like a child” is right on target. I feel that, in my family at least, immaturity was the issue. Mature behavior means emotional self-sufficiency. My mom-whom I loved, by the way-was never intentional about making careful, mature decisions. But they didn’t have these tools then either. Hoping things can be different for me and my kids.
Never bring your mom around your children. They won’t survive.
Thank you professor. Again. You eloquently, brutally and factually have described the reasons behind my lifelong struggles with intimate partners. For a number of years, through the information you have shared here, I have an understanding of the family dynamics I grew up with. My father who most likely had NPD, my enmeshment and parentification and the codependency I internalized. And now I have another piece of the puzzle. I won't go into my history with him other to say on my wedding day he was still telling me I could change my mind and that I could stay with him forever. I felt a lot of anger towards him at some point in my life as I realized it was his parenting that created his dysfunctional children. My siblings all passed due to self destructive behavior. Never feeling good enough. My enmeshment with him was probably what saved me, not that I didn't abuse substances as well. But now having listened to you for years, I have nothing but love and intense sympathy for him. He was damaged beyond all repair by his mom. You can't give someone something you don't have.
I could have written this myself. Hugs
my life story with my mother
Mine too.
What are some signs of this?
Same
@jetsetter883 frequent contact and if you stop, they get mad or start guilt tripping you
Very insightful. My ex has bpd and severe addiction, emotional incest by his father they would ring each other up to ten times a day he was 32. No ability for sexual or emotional intimacy (sexual fantasies about smoking his mother was a heavy smoker) Saddest most disturbing thing I have ever come across is emotional incest.
my father did this to me too...
As a little girl, I was unwilling to play that nasty game with my mother after her divorce. She never stopped trying, even into my early adulthood. And yet, I replayed that dynamic in almost every relationship I had with men, including both of my marriages.
When I finally went to therapy, we did a free-form expression exercise where we would blurt out the first words that popped into our heads. My turn, I said, "I married my mother's penis!" I now see where that statement came from.
Still, in all, I WON! It's hard to reel me back in once I have shaken loose from the hook.
It is a sad situation to be in when you are entangled with your parent so inappropriately. Fortunately it was not case with my narcissistic mother because she hated children. She told me many time that she never liked children yet she had 12 children two of whom died when they were babies and one of these babies due to her neglect. So, she preferred us out of the house rather than paying us attention.
hope u are ok@@JineqeKurdKurd
This also really hits home. Yes it’s so non verbal and all the more confusing. It’s like an energy thing.
This has got to be the most terrifying and interesting video
My stomach ached when I saw this title. Today is also my mother's birthday, what a coincidence.
I always sense that it is something fishy in my relationship with my mother.
I had girlfriends but I always kept that for myself and never said a word about it. When my mother first saw me with a girl she was disappointed and I felt guilty like I did some type of crime.
I had many opportunities to be in a serious relationship but I always rejected it, my subconscious blocked me because that would be betrayal of my mother, like Sam explained. Fortunately, I heard about this 2 years ago and started reading about it. I confronted my mother and tried to explain this to her but she rejected any dialogue about this elephant in the room.
Now I realize that it was impossible for me to have a normal intimate relationship in the past.
Today I have a little bit of hope, this individuation can be done but it is not a negotiation, it must be done with understanding of yourself and that whole covert process.
This is so nauseating 🤢
It's real.
@@crux321 I don't need to imagine, I've been through this myself.
The main feeling for me right now, that I am leaving my ex for this
I believe this dynamic is generational trauma at work - at its core. By the time these men reach 30's-40's, it's not even the mother's jealousy anymore. Their distrust of other women, along with what I believe is internalized trauma of the mother or between father and mother, will lead him to act rashly or make poor decisions. In the end, there is only the mother left that seems reliable - the only one who ever really cared. It's a pretty sick catch 22. For myself, I knew since I was a child that my parents could never be my parents. They were too wrapped in their own conflict to truly be involved. My brother and I traded places being the confidante of either mother or father - both needed an ally against the other. At some point I remember feeling that, as much as I wanted to help her, my mother needed me too much, it was too intimate. I pushed her away and became the rebel/outcast of the family. It was only the truth - I knew I had to raise myself anyway. It was a hard road. Now my brother and I are in our 50s, and he is 100% mom's pseudo-partner and defender. It disgusts me at times. I am so glad I said no to that role, even if imperfectly.
Such an eloquence, clairvoyance and objectivity in your words.
this is the reason I refused to have kids. Im incest survivor also parent did emotional incest.
Im aware this has life long consequences to my life and potentially everyone around me.
The shit what was done to me.. been done for 3 generations already.. I decided to end it.
I refuse to do the same and hurt my child or other people`s kids. Will find my purpose elsewhere
and try my best to heal , be good person
Thank you for your choice and desire not to hand down the hurt. Wishing you good in your life.
@@a_new_life_41
when people with trauma backgrounds become parents they think " oh I wont do it to my kids " but.. I have seen the opposite..
most of the cases actually one way or another have very toxic parenting style and they will hurt their kids why is this?
because they rushed to have kids and didnt do the healing now kids will suffer AND kids will parent to THEIR parents when it is suppose to be other way around! and THAT IS EMOTIONAL INCEST!
also noticed that a lot parents.. create their full identity being a parent.. they become codependent to their kids! when kids become adults and will have their life, their own kids.. the parents have nothing to do and become angry to their adult kids which is wrong! you are bored in life? them fuck sake help yourself and find something to do! find hobby, hit the gym, go hiking... take care of yourself
parents job is to raise their kids in a way.. once they become adults they can function in life so well that they dont need you anymore!
but I see so often parents become codependent from their kids and actually doesnt want them to grow up with this they will destroy their relationship with their kids and grandkids
kids are never suppose to take the adult`s burdens but this happens so often! parents are not aware that they self sabotage their relationship with their kids with this.. then they wonder why kids doesnt want to deal with them or they possibly... want to stay Childfree... why? cause they fucking spend their CHILDHOOD to be parents to their parents and werent allowed to develop IDENTITY!
this were my case too!
so yes if someone has trauma background the most important what they must do first is:
SELF mastery! figure out who you are
then.. since parents didnt do their job how to function in life and decided to bring another victim in the rat wheel so they can feel better about themselves..
unfortunately you have to teach yourself how to be functional, productive adult. Just imagine:
if no one teach you the basics in life and you struggle in life.. how you can teach healthy life habits, smart financial choices to your kids when you dont know yourself? nope you wont
or lets compare this to birds: if birdy parent didnt learn how to fly.. how the fuck he can teach that to his babies how to fly? the most crucial skill for the species?
they all will fall down to cliff and die lol!
if parents are not careful
YOUR fears will become YOUR child`s fear
that will haunt them for the rest of their life
and when im thinking about this.. I cant live with the pain knowing that person who I was suppose to protect and love.. I was the very person who mainly destroyed their life
I`d rather not take that risk... more time pass more grateful I am for not doing it
Aka Enmeshment, Dr.Ken Adams also has written two books about this and Dr. Patricia Love
Extraordinary.
Thank you so much for your search for truth , depth and involvement.
Emotional incest between my husband & his mother explains why my husband has always emotionally neglected &/or abused me (demonizing, criticizing) throughout our 32 year long relationship, married for 28. As a scapegoat child to a narcissistic mother (absent alcoholic father) being emotionally neglected was normal for me. It was a perfect setup for our relationship because it was convenient for him to stay faithful to his mother. But now in recent years I have been informed of & healed from my trauma & his attitudes & behaviors toward me is no longer acceptable to me. This at a time when his vulnerable narcissist mother is at her actual most vulnerable state of being elderly & recently widowed & living with us! Needless to say it has been HELL. This truly may be the end . Very very sad
I’m confused. What about girls enmeshed with their mother’s. I have always referred to myself as my mother’s lesbian lover/husband substitute.
Maybe it is time to watch the video.
@@samvakninI am 19 what should l do to solve this
@9mma32 look within yourself and yoir experiences as you listen to any videos
you got this sweetie. find what you love in life. open your mind to yourself
Jesus is pretty cool too
Thank you Sam
For all the knowledge you share with us.
For the past two days I have stumbled across this phenomenan and its heartbreaking to realize my whole life has been a lie and that the person I have dedicated my sucess too is my archetype for an abuser....the reason I have so many psychological problems , almost all of which you listed.... And on top of all of that they were a substance abuser and I was also exposed to that world aswell... Substance abuse problems I assume do fall under mental health problems...
And why I acn not have sex with the person I love , but continue to have sexual/romantic fantasies and nightmares about my abuser ex boyfriends... Its absolutely devastating... and the thing you mentioned about taboo sex... man that hit home so much about what makes me aroused and how much it horrofies me
Thank you very much, Prof. Vaknin!!! 😊
It happens between siblings also. Lost a wife to her shared Peter Pan Syndrome brother. They wear pajamas, eat sweets, watch cartoons and play video games in their mid 30s while their parents work and pay the bills. Her devotion to him is all encompassing.
Now I thank God my mother didn’t like me and my father was not around. It’s better than this. Sadly.
I wish I was in the same boat
I'm only 15 minutes in and my blood is boiling. I've been saying these things for the past 20 years, told my parents countless times that I am basically my mother's therapist/big sister since I was 4. I was just a teen when I told her that she took my life away right after giving it to me, even heard a voice telling me to kill her once. Went to the hospital at the age of 31 as I was very suicidal and in 5 minutes the psychiatrist came up with this same conclusion. A lifetime of no connections, no intimacy, no sex, just my mother's depression that I absorbed, loneliness and blind wrath. I am livid for betraying myself, for not listening to myself and my instinct and for refusing help all this time. Is there any chance to overcome this bs or is one doomed for life?
Got to the end... Wow the end killed me, what the fuck even is the point of living then.
SO sorry to hear this! Go no contact and start breathing, daily meditation, journaling focus on YOU in every way possible. That is what I´m doing. Sending you love and support!
I’m literally in the exact same boat as you. It’s doesn’t seem like a point to live since we will destroy ourselves and other people anyway because of what happened to us. I’m pretty sure he called us narcissists at the end as well which really sucks. I feel like we are doomed for life. We are forced to stay out of relationships because we can’t properly function in them. We are forced to be alone. I’m so fucked from this I have no idea what to think.
Same
I know. Okay, I appreciate the clarity that Dr. Vaknin gives us. But then he ends the video by offering no hope, no help, or no solutions. He’s basically saying we’re fucked for life and that’s it. What the hell man?! I’m gonna be going to God in prayer about this. I went no contact with my mom about 4 years ago, but I can still feel that bitch’s emotional claws buried into my soul.
@@lanaivanovic5272 Same here. About to get rid of her. I cant wait to find myself. Thanks for your reply! helps me stay on track.
Holly shit balls 😳
It's all making sense.
💥As a recovering Trophy Child, this is spot on accurate‼️ It's a double whammy when the parent(s) guilty of this violation is/are the same one(s) who try to ridicule and even punish the target for the same damage they caused to begin with, and throw a phrase over it proclaiming "We're trying to help you!"
🤔💭..........Ummmmm.......😃No Thanks👍‼️
🤬 And let's not even start on the confusion of being put on a pedestal and parentified/adultified as a youth. The parent figures begin acting like children trying to get away with something they aren't supposed to be doing in the fist place‼️
🤬 It's like......🤔💭.....🤨Huh❓ It's like the parents are inquiring information from the child that the child is supposed to be getting from the parents, just to be set up for a gaslight and have that same information parroted back to them as if it originally came from the parents to begin with‼️ It's like, I QUIT‼️
Thank you for this video. My mother is very very enmeshed with me. She was a single mom for a lot of my life (from when i was age 7 onward).
Is it possible to experience emotional incest from siblings? My sister is 10 years older than me and she’s told me that she’s had to become a parent to me and my other brothers. Lately I’ve felt abused by her because of how much over sharing she’s done with me since I was very young. I felt my voice was silenced and felt like an emotional support pet to her. Over the years I’ve said things to her like I feel like I feel like a punching bag, I feel she transfers her anxieties onto me. Other things she’s said is she doesnt know if she could go on living if I were to die, if she ever dies and she has children she wants her children to go to me, and she can see us living together( when she was well into her 40s), and asking me if I’ll be the one to wipe her butt when she’s elderly. It’s not until recently that I felt manipulated when I noticed she was not receptive to me saying no to her venting excessively to me. I accused her of being manipulative because I felt I’ve given so much of myself and time to supporting her emotionally and on 2 occasions she cried because I wasn’t giving her a special kind of support she wanted from me.
It is possible.
oof i felt allll of that... although we're quite a bit younger, she was parentified by my mom and made to be my second mom, and i grew to resent her the older i got, and now it's just ... awkward because she still expects me to be her little baby but i'm a whole grown ass man who's so emotionally insecure and wrecked.
Grieving and letting go of the guilt can help get free
I’ve watched alot of your videos over the years, and I find this one to be the best one you’ve done. Great work Professor. All the best.
Thank you for this video! I met this video at right time.
I dated a guy who was emotionally married to his mother. It was like being with Norman Bates. Disgusting
I am terrified now😢 my 10 yo son told me the other day that when he was younger, he thought he is a girl. I admit I might have been a bit closer than usual, I thought I was compensating his father's emotional absence😢
he wants to hug me all the time. I swear I didn't abuse him, I am aware of that, I want him to be a good partner in the future not an abuser, what do I do to help him 😭
read and watch videos about similar topics to learn more and hopefully help your son. If you are not sure of the boundaries, don't do anything which would not be appropriate to do with a neighbour's 10 year old son. For example, make sure he sleeps in his bed in another room not in your room or in your bed, make sure he baths himself and in privacy not with you, you should not dress undress in front of him, if he is not sure of boundaries, tell him that only he should see his private parts when he is a child and when he is adult it is for his girlfriend to see, do not watch with your son films which has sexual scenes, do not joke about topics below the belt, so to speak. Get him to join an activity club, help him to be with children of his age. the more friends he has the less he will need to cuddle and be dependent on you.
Get him involved with boys his own age and vet the adults they are around
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you might have said to yourself you were compensating him (a good excuse to hide your knowledge that something was wrong with your behaviour), when in reality you wanted him to compensate _you_ and soothe you for your lack of a partner.
Set clear boundaries and get him involved in activities with boys and girls his age. I hear your panic, my boy is overly attached to me too.
Sounds like the damage is already done. You won’t be able to explain it to him without destroying him and pushing him away. This is what usually happens to single mothers and there children.
I want to throw up. I feel devastated, traumatized. I usually handle hard things well and can cope with hard to handle things pretty good but this, I’m not doing so well with.
The most precious 57:56 minutes of my whole life.
Brilliant as always
Yes. I am a daughter who suffered this with my mother. So few resources are available.
Especially for daughters of mothers/same sex... Not daughters of fathers. It's frustrating
This is me
jesus, I afraid this is precisely why I can never be in a healthy relationship, no matter how badly I want it ..
I hear you man. I wish Dr. Vaknin provided a solution. He just ends the video by saying it’s lifelong, like there’s nothing we can do to heal ourselves if we’ve been a victim of emotional incest. Are we screwed for life? Is there not anything we can do to break free? I’m gonna be praying to God tonight about this.
I agree, he said it like it was unfixable. No solutions. Sounds as sad as hell@@richoka
That's why I'm taking this to God. However, one good thing I got from this video is the CLARITY about what happened to me. And the aleviation of guilt for going no contact with my mom. My goodness, the guilty feelings can be so crippling man. Your abuser will do anything to possess you and control you. @@trevnextgen
I know right there with you
There are! Research therapists who specialize in emotional incest @richoka
55:14 You can see something resembling this dynamic in the movie The Phantom Thread.
Thank you so much. I am so grateful to you. You helped so many people.
Amazingly correct. Genius!
This is the most complete video on this topic I have seen so far..
Thank you, this is very insightful. I just read the book 'Silently Seduced' and together with your video I've understood so many of the conflicts that I've struggled with for as long as I can remember. I've always harbored some kind of disgust towards my mother and never quite understood why. I didn't enjoy spending time with her even when I was little. Any show of affection from her side felt abhorrent. I don't know what caused it, but something saved me from being too enmeshed with her. There's still the constant guilt, shame and not feeling good enough, but by the sound of it, my situation is better than the full enmeshment you talk about in this video.
I have a question, if you don't mind: What happens if there's inconsistency in the relationship with the mother for example? I think my mother was very inconsistent with her affection. Ignoring and then being very "loving". I use quotation marks, because it always felt very transactional. She wanted something from me when she was being nice. It's all manipulation and control. There was very little mirroring, I think. She seems incapable of empathizing to a great extent even now. I've recently had to cut contact with her to protect my mental health.
Thank you for your insights & explanations of all these difficult topics. I do appreciate it very much, but sometimes I'm left wondering if there's any way (despite my sincere efforts) to prevent myself from inadvertently damaging my own child, since I am damaged, my parents were damaged, their parents were damaged, etc.
I try my best to not repeat how I was raised in any manner, & allow my child to be herself. I really try to avoid laying my baggage at her feet, while still being honest about adults not always being perfect, when I make mistakes. When I don't know how to proceed, I admit it & sometimes we as a family figure things out together, but now I'm hoping in doing so, I haven't parentified her simply because I have difficulty making decisions for myriad reasons, which could take volumes to discuss, lol.
It seems like there is a very narrow path when it comes to escaping one's childhood unscathed & mentally sound. I wasn't successful at it myself, I'd like to give her the best chance possible. Is it possible? I hope so.
Dear heart, you are doing exactly what you should do... being human, being honest, and being a good leader... the horse before the cart. I assume you share your adult concerns with adult friends, family, and perhaps a good therapist.
You are just fine, my friend!
@@samaralaliaabzu2837 Thank you. I hope that turns out to be true in retrospect. 💜
I have a supportive husband & a couple good friends. I think my therapist days are over. I had a few over the years. More than one was completely dismissive of abuse. The others were not as condescending, but were easily manipulated into believing I was "better." (Let's just say I learned my lessons well as a child about how to tell people what they wanted to hear, when necessary.)
Not many have the desire or the ability to discuss mental health issues to the degree that it is presented here, which is why I keep trying to digest it, but sometimes I get easily overwhelmed, not just here, but in general, lol. 💜
The fact that you think about it and you're trying to make sure you get it right is the key. You're doing a good job just by thinking about trying to do better than your parents. My oldest is 14, and it was just me and her for a long time. We're super close but hopefully not so close it holds her back in relationships etc.
Her dad and his mother are definitely in some incestuous scenario. That's why I'm watching this video. 😂
Anyhow keep up the good work
@@TheTinydancer9000 😂Thank you. On we go as best we can... 🤔
@@KellenAdair Thanks. I hope so. Time will tell...
If not, it is not for lack of effort, which scares me, as my own narcissistic mother, I can see now, put a great deal of effort into orchestrating what she perceived to be a perfect family in a perfect protected bubble, which was merely a disguise for being trapped in a dysfunctional familial psychological hellscape.
Sorry. I didn't intend to reply to your supportive comment with my personal angst, lol. But we've just returned from visiting my mother for Thanksgiving, that time of year where she pretends our family is like a Norman Rockwell painting, but none of the participants are willing to perpetuate the myth any longer. The cracks in the facade have widened into gaps which are held together by false niceties & glued with the Thanksgiving gravy. Exhausting.
This may sound out of topic but this perfectly describes Beau is Afriad. Ari Aster makes allot of films regarding the human condition
Hereditary (grief and madness)
Midsommar (codependency and indoctrination)
Beau is Afraid (Narcissistic abuse and emotional incest)
It was "SO much truth". Sorry, typo. I got feeling a little shy and deleted my comment yesterday. It was all the talk about s-e-x!
Nice to know you're there reading. : ) I did get through the whole video. The more I learn, the more things fall into place. I have been feeling quite schizoid myself lately, kinda comforting to know that that is a normal stage.
Dr. Vaknin, the uncanny ability that you have in consistently uploading videos that crack the code for me within ongoing personal issues would have had me believing in your omniscient all-knowing presence, had I not been familiar with your previous lectures on ideas of reference.
I could not help but draw many similarities between this phenomenon of covert emotional incest and your paper on the Inverted Narcissist.
Both rejection and collusion in the initial Mother - child shared fantasy leads to a life by the latter that is plagued by secondary narcissism. I apologize if I seem to be connecting dots between two unrelated issues; does the ambient confusion of covert emotional incest that you describe work to undermine the primal narcissistic defenses that the vast majority of people have even as children?
As well, the child exposed to covert emotional incest seems completely unwilling to betray Mother. In your work on the Inverted Narcissist, there is a brief mention of the possibility in finding a faithful rendition of the IN’s narcissistic primary object. Would this scenario (wherein an inverted narcissist meets a significant other that adheres to the model of the internal object representing Mother) offer an opportunity for the victim of covert emotional incest to explore feelings of intimacy and sexuality?
Thank you for your work, I look forward to your notifications daily
Thank you so much. You make so much sense of peoples experiences.
That's my first comment after many videos I saw. I'm very impressed with this one. I felt very interested in and uncomfortable at the same time. Not related to me but to people I know well. Still considering: could this be the case of that person? Never know for sure. Thanks for your insightful video. From Brazil 🇧🇷
When my mother was diagnosed with cancer last year (2022) and was in hospital, I telephoned her to ask how she was. She told me that the nurse could not fit the catheter due to having 12 children and the nurse told her that after all her sacrifice, her body shrunk, (meaning her vagina). Catheter is the tube fitted to bedridden patients to gather the urine in a bag. I was so sick of hearing from her again and again, her guilt tripping for giving us birth and due to her sacrifice we should be ever grateful, I told her to stop lying, because If the catheter was put in where the baby comes out, the nurse would say, "you have become as wide as a bag, the tube is not staying in it". My mother, realised I caught her lie, shut up immediately, so the other people in the room would not hear what I said. She has been dead for a year now but I still hate her. May she rot in hell.
That part of her body shrunk because she was older,post menopausal?, and her hormones changed.Which causes vagina shrinking…..
Some people continue toxicity even on the deathbed.
You can tell a lot about a person by their behaviors toward others when they are in the final phase of their life.
Wanting to receive and also give love in their final days speaks well of a person.The desire to cause more pain before they leave this world for others to carry the burden,Doesn’t.
@@macnchessplz The catheter is put in the hole where urine comes out, it is nothing to do with giving birth but clearly she did not know it but lied just to make me feel guilty.
@@macnchessplz when she was in hospital she was constantly drinking water. the doctor told us not to give her water the day before she would have her operation. I explained this to her and said I will not give her water after 9pm on the day before the operation, she telephoned and called all her 9 children, her sisters and relatives and told them that I was her enemy and was not giving her water and she was gasping for a drop of water. She told me if she finishes with her illness, she knows what she is going to do to me, meaning she will disinherit me. (she did not know she had cancer), I did not tell to her face but thought to myself "fortunately you will go to your grave with this illness". Now looking back, I wish I left the bottle next to her bed and let her drink as much as she wanted and leave the reprimand to doctors.
@@macnchessplzit doesn't make sense. Urine doesn't come from the vagina so the tube wouldn't need to go there.
It's amazing how many people, even women, don't know this.
@@macnchessplz She constantly complained and blamed everyone around her. I regretted taking 3 weeks off work (which caused issues in the following months) and look after her. I did not have to do it because she had other children who could help her (even if they did out of obligation not because they loved her) but, at the end of the day, she told me I was her enemy for not giving her water (on doctors order). My advise to anyone who has narcissistic relatives, please do not kill yourself to please that person. They blame the ones help, not the ones do not help. You will regret for spending your time, energy and money on such a worthless ungrateful person. I regretted it and got my lesson. I have other narcissist in my family but will not do the same mistake.
Would you make the supposition that borderline is a likely outcome for children who are the victims of this? I am recovering from a 7 year relationship with a woman with bpd. Her mother is insane and I remember pulling up a webpage on jrank that described enmeshment/boundary dissolution/spousification which perfectly described the relationship that her mom had with her and her brother. The parents weren’t intimate with each other and the mom would unload her every thought onto her youngest son (he became an anxious alcoholic). The daughter, who I dated, was always terrified of her mom and was always deprived of any support or independence if she stepped out on being there for her mom. I was never able to help my partner and her mom was a great source of friction in our relationship.
BPD has been correlated with sexual abuse in childhood.
Does this make things more complicated when one or both parent/child have a mental illness?
Emotional incest often stems from parental mental health issues.
Thanks Sam for your insight! Is it possible that this dynamic can also occur in some way between a man and his older sister (6 years age difference)…🧐
Yes.
@@samvakninI think this is the case with someone close to me
Very close to mother and much older sister. .both died in the last few years and he has just become a stranger to me.
I think the sister was also too close to the mother, she died 2 years after the mother did. Complete responsibility for the mother since young, never married or had her own kids.
The brother, as far as I see, has just lost his whole identity with both of them gone. It's not normal grief.
My family dynamics is a real life case study that’s proves this.
While terminology is being applied to it, I have always known that the behaviors exhibited by my parents, particularly my mother, with whom we lived for the great majority of our lives, wasn't right. In fact, I would define it as crippling. I clearly see its impact upon my two siblings and my sister's 4 child who my mother raised.
Me? I went into the military and have lived my on life since then. Of course, my mother still attempted to corral me while I was be back for almost 5 years, but I didn't allow it and eventually movef back to Tennessee where life is better and more peaceful. All is well and better without them. Family or not, it's the truth.
I have a question .. why would his mother tell him that she done his daughters hair in pigtails braids bcuz she knows how much he likes them .. he likes them sexually and his mother tries to control him in everything.. we got into a fight and she told him to go home and have sex w me .. who talks like that ? his family is very open sexually and he slept w his parents until he was 12 and him and his brother both hate her but yet they both won’t leave her either .. he left me and moved right back in w his parents
Omg that is horrific. I hope you and your daughter heal from this 💔
@@hardhatcatboi it’s just his daughter not mine and she won’t have anything to do w a man sexually.. and she married to a women and I’m out of the the horror mess … I’m just waiting for that divorce he promised since I’m such a adulterer that he claims .. I didn’t cheat I was to much in love w him
This certainly answers a lot of questions about my ex
Can you do a video how to properly separate individuate for your children?
Search the from child to narcissist playlist.
This is real too and so sickening 🤢🤢🤢
This is life changing information. Thank you Prof. SV. Can I please share this presentation with the link?
You don’t need anyone’s permission to share links.
@@samvaknin ok thank you Professor
How does one define this? Does it have degrees? I suspect I may suffer from this based on research I have done...
i fear this was the case with Sinead and her So(u)n. if only she had seen Vaknin in private not Dr Phool on tv....doing my darndest to let "mine" Be....
This is what is happening with my 15 year old stepson and it feels like there is nothing we can do about it and he is doomed. 😢
I'd like to hear more about the scientific methods and research details used in order to achieve those eye-openning conclusions.
Is it possible to individuate ? Can you give steps on how to?
Search the NA healing and recovery playlist.
I’m an adult and I need to flee this situation. I don’t know what to do
It is life long. My MIL still drools at my husbnd. We dont go see her anymore. Its sick to see. Even our 16 year old son noticed.
the description reminds me of the movie Beau is Afraid
I also want to ask a question, is autoerotism a must as a defense in emotional incest? As a young child to teen I did partake but always with extreme guilt to tthe point where I no longer partake in any kind of sex (asexuality)
Most asexuality is autoerotic (for example: involves masturbation or masturbatory fantasies or dreams).
@@samvaknin Ah... I do not partake in masturbation , but to an anorexic point where I am disgusted by the act. BUT out of all this sexual repression I have wet dreams all of the time and find myself engaging in autoerotism while asleep
Ay Dios ! Qué horror crecer con estas personas como padres
Y que lo digas... en mi caso desde mi madre hasta mi hermana 🤮 te juro que no puedo tener nada con mujeres sin ser bdsm del asco que me quedó dentro 😂😂 y por lo normal simplemente evito el sexo, prefiero ser asexual antes que eso 🤢
@@active96 Totalmente, yo no me conecto sexualmente, es terrible! nunca supe por qué
Yo también viví esta m****a, soy una chica italiana. Me gustaría mucho hablar con otra chica que pasó esto para confrontarnos 🙏🏼 si quieres te dejo mi correo electrónico
Does this most often happen to the golden child ??
Yes.
So interesting
Mr.VAknin,
I watched your video on Emotional covert incest is Lifelong and could really relate to the effects or damage done to the child turned adult.The part about damaging our sexual functioning ( ie., dehumanizing women or only having sexual relations with prostitutes).I believe that I have been affected by this. My question is where can I find this information so that I can inform myself further ? It would be much appreciated. THANKS Ronny
Covert incest continuous and also after the death of the mother?
Yes.
His mother told him when we started dating that he’s got a “nice butt” ew? And she’s been consoling jn him whenever his dad breaks her heart ever since he was a kid, to the point of not liking his father and his father’s relatives for her reasons
This is so disgusting
So does therapy work for this or?
It does.
@@samvaknin Can you please make a video which therapy and how?
I’ve seen Mothers do this with all of their children.
Disgusting.😢
How often does this occur?
No statistics are available.
You didn't elaborate on when it is between son and father
Same dynamic. Watch the video on daddy issues.
How common is it?
We don’t know. It is way more common in incestuous cultures such as Italy’s.
I’m Italian and I lived this, thanks for the video 🙏🏼😭 why this happens more in Italy? I didn’t know…
Stepmothers of boy children has anyone seen this
Could this be happening to an adult child from both parents? And could this child be benefiting in a way from the parents attention?
Professor Vaknin, how do you get a female covert narcissist to end a relationship (marriage)?
Try divorcing or breaking up with her.
How do you deal with a Sister-In-Law that was her mother's surrogate spouse for almost 20 years and now that her mother is dead, is trying to make your wife (her sister) her surrogate spouse?
Can this being homo sexual may be a way of not having sex with a mommy?
Search the channel. Homosexuality is biological.
I urge you to look up Joseph Nicolossi if you would like to see a different perspective on how homosexuality is formed based on this unhealthy childhood dynamic. At its core homosexuality in men is related to a man’s sense of masculinity being inferior to that of other men.
Interesting question..I also had this feeling before that there is link between homosexuality in men and overbearing mothers.
@@Iamany.BatuanCarl Jung speculated that the man's heterosexuality is unconsciously tied to the mother, in compensation becomes homosexual in his conscious life.
Prof. Vaknin, Can such homoerotic coping strategy turn to homosexuality or sexual orientation confusion in Young adulthood?
Search the narcissist's sexuality palylist.
Can this be the reason why a person can be what they call an sex addict?
Yes. One of several possible reasons.
Can this occur between father and son?
Maybe it is time to watch the video.
I watched and read the transcript, just now. I only ask because my ex's 15 year old son would come over every 2 weeks to spend time with him. It aways made me feel uncomfortable because he (the son) was constantly kissing his arms, holding his hand, playing with his hair, when we'd watch movies on the couch he'd grab his father's arm and put it between his legs as if hugging his arm...and so much more. I always felt like my ex should have set boundaries, especially with his son being in High School. I never said anything because it wasn't my place, but it made my stomach turn.
@@marilynrosario228 that sounds so cringy so sorry you had to deal with this blatant lack of boundaries and beyond!
My mother ends texts with 'xxx'. It makes me feel uncomfortable and like its incestuous. Am I overreacting?
Absolutely! That in itself sounds like you are reading too much into it. Perhaps your mother is just expressing her affection in a friendly polite way.
I went through this with my mother. I am 45 and am trying to find my comfort zone with women. I recently started visiting sex workers as a way to explore myself. Is this healthy or unhealthy?
You’re asking if banging hookers is unhealthy?
Ummm not healthy.
Most of the girls are trafficked .
Hänschen klein :)
Thank you from Italy, from a girl who lived this horrible thing. 🤍
My psychotic narcissistic ex told me once that he saw his narcissistic mother just staring intently at his'man-hood' that was hanging out a little of his very short shorts (he was wearning my shorts at the time🚩) and his reaction to her was - "well thats between you and God" - I realized there and then the extent to what I was dealing with...its both shocking and sickening the relationship between those two🫢🤢😳...that woman hated me the second she saw for the first time - before even the greets and introductions - that hatred grew every second of every day - wish I knew at 27 what I know now at 40 - went through absolute hell with those two...