For the next game, I think they should give us a huge beautiful overworld to explore where we can do whatever the hell we want but with dungeons that restrict you. Oh, and a more engaging story.
They're incompatible in terms of game design. Classical Zelda dungeons (and we'll ignore Zelda I/II since their dungeons are really just combat challenges) are puzzle boxes with gating based on key items, revolving around lateral thinking. Open world anything... can't function with key items, by nature of its design. The player *has* to have all the tools to explore the world almost from the start, or else it's not an open world. So any 'key item' you can get in one dungeon has to be specific to that dungeon in an open world context. Its utilitarian function begins and ends where that dungeon's boundaries lie. Worse still, you can't have puzzles revolving around multiple sets of key items, because there's no way to guarantee the player will complete the dungeons in any set sequence. You'd get situations where you get a third of the way through one dungeon and then get stuck because you didn't get the key item from another dungeon (though you could just rent these key items instead ala ALBW, but this has its own problems - namely, spoilering the themes of any given dungeon because you'd have to be able to see these key items in the first place before anything, and also they'd still be useless in the overworld because you can't have progress gating based on key items because it's an open world game). So you'd have dungeons with puzzles that can only be themed around one specific key item that is immediately rendered useless outside of that dungeon - at that point, why not just theme the puzzles around a specific set of tools the player already picked up beforehand? Like, I dunno, a magnet app on your mystical tablet... And you can't have them be too long, either, because you'd quickly run out of ideas for puzzles involving your one key item for that specific dungeon. You don't want long arbitrary linear stretches in your open world game anyway, it disrupts the flow and the pace of exploration. So, short stripped back dungeons involving tools the player already has access to. Probably want to have a lot of them to make up for the fact there's no big dungeons anymore. Is any of this sounding familiar to you? Yep, what we got in BoTW/ToTK is all the dungeon you can feasibly cram into the open world format. And they end up falling flat, because they're ultimately a half-baked compromise that doesn't scratch what Zelda dungeons are supposed to be about. Probably better to just get rid of them and focus exclusively on the exploration gameplay (which is what I suspect they're going to do with the next Zelda title). And sure, open world games have dungeons and underground areas like TES or whathaveyou, but these aren't *Zelda dungeons*. They're more like Zelda I/II style dungeons where they're just combat challenges, kill a bunch of leveled enemies and loot old tombs. Could Zelda I/II style dungeons work? Sure, probably. Nintendo's done combat-style dungeons in the past for 3D Zelda (Savage Labyrinth, etc) so we might see something like that make a comeback (hell, the Trial of the Sword more or less *was* this already). But that's not what you want. You want dungeons like OoT and Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, and it's just not happening.
@@slizzysluzzerI kinda skimmed your comment, but... Nah, they can absolutely make restrictive dungeons work with the BOTW overworld. All they have to do is take away the abilities of your magic tablet when you enter a dungeon. Give the player access to even more new abilities that they get to keep after exiting the dungeon or unlock some of your tablet's capabilities once you get certain keys. Either solution will work and all they have to say is "the power of evil is restricting your abilities." Put key locks on the dungeons to prevent you from accessing them in the wrong order along with a teleport nearby and you effectively have your old dungeon system back in most of its glory.
Not to mention that it speaks volumes to me that the moments in BOTW that people hail as being great are the moments that put more restriction on you. The journey up Zora's domain (unless you just glide off the Citadel tower,) the starting area, Eventide Island (unless you drop a bunch of weapons in the water before you walk onto the shore) and the DLC Sword trials. The idealistic side of me doesn't want to call Aonuma lazy, but the cynical side of me thinks it's probably just easier for to make a big, open map and pepper it with lots of interchangeable bite sized content, then it is to make large-scale structured dungeons and ensure the player can never soft-lock themselves from progress.
100% agree. The best gameplay moments in TotK for me were the few shrines that actually forced me to think outside the box and recontextualize already existing mechanics. Which was only possible through restrictions.
@@lmnt66 I think they could've done a better job of intergrating that stuff into the actual world - caves would've worked great. No shrines, and caves give you restrictions to try to solve puzzles. I think something like that could work in the future - I don't particular like shrines, but if they became another part of the world and fleshed out a bit more....that could be cool.
Yeah, that‘s what I‘ve been hoping for TotK too. Don‘t segment the puzzle content from the overworld into disconnected, samey boxes, integrate them into the world through different POIs - be it caves, ruins, ruins within caves etc. - and basically transform them into mini dungeons. Add some unique architecture and lore to them- bam. Which afaik is what Elden Ring already does lol
Me too, I keep trying to play Breath of the Wild after playing all the others before it, and even I get lost in Majora's Mask or any other, I have exactly that feeling of getting lost and really not in the mood to play BOTW. Maybe I am the rare case that has enjoyed the less for this last one rather than the rest. Anyway. Also agree, a mix of both old and new could be the best way to go. Anyway. Cheers.
I love both, but gotta go with classic 3d for my favorite. Mainly I miss the deeply themed dungeons, story pacing, and of course more impactful music. Going back and playing tears with my son while he beats it definitely reminds me how great it is but I've also replayed ocarina, wind waker, Majora's mask and twilight princess since and honestly like all of them more for the reasons I said above.
The old formula and the new formula are different from one another and do different things better. No other game plays quite like old Zelda and I’ve seen too many games that play like the new Zelda, open world slop. In terms of gameplay, the new Zeldas almost never hit the same highs of the older games for me, and when you find new people discovering the older games day by day and loving them just as much as older people did, that’s how you know it’s not just nostalgia. My most aggressive hot take is that star fox adventures is a better traditional Zelda game than tears of the kingdom or breath of the wild.
HOT TAKE INDEED. I never thought about never playing a game like old Zelda and playing a bunch of games like new Zelda...hm. All I know is I'm in the middle of Oracle of Ages right now (which I've never played before) and I am entranced.
I think Ages is probably the biggest "sleeper" game in the series. It's not unreasonable that it's largely off of peoples radar but god damn it's just an exceptional game. Easily the best GBC game (alongside it's sibling).
It's not. It's a weird mess of a game to be sure and almost certainly the weakest Rareware game of their Nintendo era but it's still a pretty solid game at the end of the day. You can absolutely hate but that doesn't mean it's bad. Though even the best Star Fox game isn't approaching Zelda tier anyway.
I prefer the old Zelda because I just try to focus on the main quest in the new Zelda, I need to grind those little shrines that are disconnected, ununique, small, metroivaniayless. for pure exploration with dungeon crawling I prefer Bethesda rpgs' open world map and dungeon design.
I like the dungeons of the old games and the openness of the new ones, if the new zelda games manage to get better dungeons and puzzles they will be perfect.
I do appreciate the vast open world with those small details, I really do. But the old 3D Zelda games were so intricately designed where even despite the masterful dungeons even things in the overworld are linked, one thing leads to another that leads to another ad infinitum. It wasn’t just a fantasy game with puzzles, the exploration, the combat, and the actual puzzles themselves of course, WERE puzzles. Despite being smaller in scale the old Zelda games for me still felt bigger, more grand. Top it off with amazing atmosphere and storytelling and it’s just hard to describe. But that’s just my own opinion.
Oracle of Seasons stands as my favorite Zelda game. I think the dungeons are a really good middleground between combat challenge and complex puzzles, and the world opening up in segments is really exciting (great examples being Tarm Ruins and the final dungeon, as you can get a peek at their entrances quite early)
Its honestly amazing that Aonuma could say such ignorant garbage despite being in the idustry as long as he has. If a game has no rules or restrictions then its basically not even a game anymore. Aonuma is the kind of guy who would call chess restrictive because flipping the board isn't considered a legitimate strategy.
A game that combines elements of classic 3D Zelda and botw style could be so awesome. I would love to see smaller "retro style" 3D titles come out between mainline titles too.
I mean books and movies are linear experiences like the old Zelda games but if it is well designed and made with some kind of love I will experience them again and again until I am no longer able to do so
I think meeting in the middle would make the ultimate Zelda game. Still somewhat linear, but in a more tiered sense, with branching paths along the way, like the Shadow Temple/Spirit Temple choice you have in Ocarina. You have a huge world full of secrets to explore but it's not so vast that it becomes dull and repetitive like it does sometimes in the Switch games. In other words, every discovery is unique, and some challenges can't be completed without more gear, but you still have tons of freedom to explore off rip. Maybe you can show up to an endgame location, but you'll only be able to access a couple goodies and you're liable to get your ass whooped by the local fauna. To me, one of the best experiences that defines classic Zelda is getting a new item because of how it's an upgrade, not just in your strength, but also in your ability to traverse the world. You're basically becoming a more effective explorer and the payoff is slowly coming to understand a lively, interconnected world. Expanding your access to that world from the get go would make it all the more electric when you get a new item and realize a ton of places in the overworld where it could be useful. There would have to be some compromises made, like maybe you don't get a full on arsenal of tools but you several very useful ones that you acquire a long the way. But these philosophies would really complement each other if they were integrated into a single experience. The team behind BotW obviously considered all of this, but they should just reel it in and boom, no more losing to Baldur's Gate. Anyways great yap session.
"... in more of a tiered sense". This is how I envision my ideal Zelda. Basically the BotW/TotK engine, but with all of the abilities, including freeclimbing, unlocked in dungeons proper. I think a general overworld progression of [on foot > horseback > sailing > freeclimbing] would be a good start, maybe even with an open order, and of course with all the classic Zelda items sprinkled in between.
We talked about TotK the other day and I played a bunch over the weekend and it's been awhile since I had played it. My preference is still old style 3d Zelda and then 2d Zelda as a close second. Then the open world style (but I had a blast this weekend) then the touch screen style (still like PH and ST) and then the multiplayer style (fun with friends but that's it)
@@LittleBeanGreen yeah that would fix element of Zelda that is missing for me with them. The overworld would still have its issues but at that point it really might be preference. I would love to see the first trilogy and give Hero of the Wild one more game with traditional dungeons and a few more old school 3D Zelda elements like permanent items found in the dungeons and see how I feel about it then. The thing that might still be an issue is a clear narrative.
@@MrYutbe57 I think if Nintendo operated with a linear story as their starting point (not saying they START with a story) but if they come up with gameplay ideas, would they say 'ok how can we tell this story linearly' or 'if we don't, how can we have the player involved at each step" - I think those changes would go a long way to shoring up some of those other issues.
I played BOTW and TOTK first and liked it enough to play Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword. I like old Zelda better so its not nostalgia talking. But it was nice to be able to control the camera freely ngl lol
I don't think it's just the dungeons and world as a whole. There's some mystique in the old Zelda when it came to the attention to detail in the storytelling. More compact areas allowed for more (and better) content to be absorbed. Better atmosphere, better and more relatable, realistic characters and their storylines. I am specifically thinking about Majora's Mask while writing this, and that is a very special game, but it sums most Zelda games since maybe A Link to the Past.
@@LittleBeanGreen On point. Maybe using more verticality instead of vastness in the open-world. Bigger towns with more "levels" and events to unfold. More things happening "despite of you" instead of "because of you" is something that would really improve that sense of discovery in a way. Perhaps even improve the Zelda formula as a whole.
No Koji Kondo compositions are a huge loss. I've heard people justify this by staying the atmospheric soundtrack in BoTW better compliments the game... but I've never been a fan of that logic. Open world games can have bombastic soundtracks. It doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing decision, where everything's purely atmospheric at all times. You can have great crescendos in combat encounters or in plot-heavy moments (and I found BoTW/ToTK's soundtrack lacking the most in these areas). You can have timed tracks play during certain cues like say, galloping through Hyrule Field on your horse (and the horse riding theme we got, plastered over every instance of you riding a horse, got real old real fast honestly).
I implore you to play a link between worlds if you can. It’s probably one of the most unique 2D Zelda games because of how you can get all of the dungeon items at the start. You have to rent or purchase them but you can get them in whichever order you would like and you can explore the world in whichever order you would like, all the while maintaining itself as a traditional Zelda game. If there is a way to merge new and old formulas I think the answer might lie somewhere in there.
That was the game that gave them the testing grounds for the new style. (And then Triforce Heroes for clothing testing.) And it has a bit of an identity crisis of being a ALttP remake and a proper sequel.
@@LittleBeanGreen I recomend getting to it, if nothing else for the music, but it's my least favorite of the 2D. Aside from the original two. It didnt push itself hard enough and the item renting mechanic was a mistake, because it made the dungeons have the same issue as the Switch duo: everything designed to be a player's first. I won't go into further detailing for the soft attempt at keeping it spoiler free. I just found it way too derivative. It might have a high production on a tech level, but I look beyond that, and I just rather play other options. But I also rather do a 4th play through of TFH, consider Four Sword Adventures the best "save the sages" 2D zelda, and find the Capcom Zeldas the best overall. So I understand I have a different perspective.
@@amandaslough125 Hm yeah - I already know what the story of ALBW is. I'm working my way through Oracle of Ages for the first time right now and loving it.
Been streaming through the old Zelda’s again because I plan to speedrun OOT at some point this year… Currently playing and finishing LTTP and man… these old games just hit so hard. I am so excited to play the oracle games, I never had them as a kid. I love classic Zelda games.
I played Seasons once when I was 11 and I remember asking my dad almost daily to drive me to the video store because they had a players guide and I could look up how to get through dungeons 😅Luckily I didn't have to do that this time through but I did have moments of pause where I wasn't completely sure how to solve a puzzle or move through the overworld next. I'm currently on my first ever playthrough of Ages and I am stuck in the second temple but loving it!
@@LittleBeanGreen that’s how I was recently with Zelda 2!! I got stuck sooooo much. I ended up having a viewer who’s very versed on the speedrun scene for Zelda 2 basically talk me through everything whenever I was hitting a wall. These old games just hit soooo well. They truly are masterpieces in their own.
If I wanted to play an open world game, I would play Minecraft. There's nothing that BotW/ToTK can offer me exploring wise that I can't find better in old Minecraft. The thing is, I didn't like playing Minecraft.
@@kashamiri Because I liked the classic Zelda gameplay of intricate themed dungeons, getting new items over the course of the game that gradually give you more abilities to access new areas and complete more puzzles (basically like Metroidvania), the bigger focus on the story (I know Zelda is not the most fleshed out game series storywise but the difference between BotW/TotK and the old games is night and day), and overall a more dense well crafted experience. BotW was too much wandering around a barren empty wasteland filled with repetitive shrines and korok seeds, "dungeons" are very disappointing, I dislike the survival elements like breakable weapons and cooking, the story is completely just flashblacks and it lost the "Hero's Journy" aspect that previous Zelda games had, and overall it feels like a mile wide but an inch deep.
@@LittleBeanGreen Yes I remember riht after finishing BotW I went back and played the Oracle games for the first time and enjoying them a thousand times more. The people saying "it's just nostalgia" are absolutely ridiculous.
@@pitshoster401 OR bring someone in to deal with the narrative. Maybe not something crazy like Elden Ring and George RR Martin but someone who would oversee it all with care.
I’ve played every mainline Zelda from ALTTP onward. (I later played LOZ later on in my life). I don’t what so many people are upset about. But I guess I just love Zelda. The BOTW/TOTK formula isn’t perfect but it’s a work in progress and I’m sure the title after TOTK will find a better balance between old and new
I was hoping TotK would be a best of both worlds rather than a Zonai-painted BotW, but if Aonuma's comments are anything to go by, he just sees everything in traditional Zelda as outdated. I don't really have high hopes that the next game will rectify the divide. With BotW and TotK's sales, they may not even see a need to heal the divide.
That's my fear - and honestly, even though I'd prefer a balanced game, I'll probably still buy the new one if it follows the previous two games' open-world design concept......
I appreciate so much of what new Zelda does, but will never understand why they refuse to give them good dungeons. Thats all they really need imo, everything else in BoTW and ToTK is just more fun (for me). This is the same team that made Skyward Sword, the game with arguably some of the best dungeons in the series. They HAVE the ability, they just won't.
Honestly. The new ones lack character. They lack passion. I dont see this "new" appeal. I wanted to. While some things the new format can be objectively better at, the package comes off uninspired and thoughtless. I just dont care enough about them like I do the older titles. And Im playing some of the older titles for the first time right now and they just feel different. Sure you can get stuck. But Id rather get stuck than use ascend to circumvent the puzzles that dont matter anyhow because you can solve them in 50 different ways. Which makes them all worthless.
@@LittleBeanGreen haha it was actually the one Ive been trying to play through most recently. The Crescent island was confusing and I stopped playing for a couple of weeks halfway through so I forgot what Id done previously. That was difficult haha
@@gustafadolfsson4904 I took some time off and forgot the main gimmick of the game but I came back recently and think I've got it figured out - 2 more dungeons to go!
The thing that bugs me when debating this, is quite often newer fans will just shout your opinion down as "nostalgia" or "You just want another ocarina" without actually listening to what we want. We don't want pure linearity, nor do we want a beat for beat ocarina update. We just want the elements of what made the older Zelda's great better incorporated into the new ones. I love the open ended exploration of the wild games, but I also miss having massive dungeons to conquer, i miss discovering unique items that genuinely change the gameplay going forward. I miss the sheer enemy variety, BotW and ToTK both have the lowest amount of unique enemy types (not including recolours or elemental types) of any 3D zelda game. It's hard to love exploring when you're most likely to run into the same enemies and get a bunch of resources that, lets be honest, you don't actually care about aside from an upgrade here n there. The dungeons don't even have to be compulsory, you could have a bunch there to explore with unique questlines and rewards that you can choose to partake in or not. Elden Ring does this, it gives you a massive world to explore but also these sprawling labrynths of castles and catacombs, much like a zelda dungeon. I wish we got more of this. We don't need to return to old zelda to have some of those great elements brought back. And the fact that Aonuma seems to think us wanting them is just us being nostalgic kinda feels like he not only doesn't understand us, but also hates his old work, and I can't fathom why.
You make a good point about your own opinion and I’d say generally the fandom agrees with your position, even those who feel compelled to defend the new games. However, you have to acknowledge that a number of very loud classic Zelda fans legitimately do just want the nostalgia trip/ another Ocarina and they want everybody to know it. This may not be the case for you, but it definitely is for some and I think it’s understandable why fans of the newer style games feel defensive towards that because it’s a direction the series obviously shouldn’t and logistically won’t go, and it sort of belittles the Zelda team’s work and effort put into BOTW/TOTK. It often feels like some people have already forgotten what a necessary refresh they were. These games wouldn’t have happened the way they did if the old 3d Zelda style, great as it was, hadn’t run out of steam in a lot of ways.
I've never played it but from what I've heard/seen, I honestly think Elden Ring is the next evolution of Zelda. As for those clamoring for OoT 2.0, a. play Twilight Princess and b. you're wrong haha
My perfect Zelda would have the massive overworld full of secrets and stuff and the health restoration by cooking like the current Wild Titles, with Shield durability (and ONLY shield durability) like Skyward Sword, as well as a more structured story with tight puzzles and items with various uses like the classic games. The open world, much like Zelda 1, could have some spaces that cannot be accessed by the player till they beat a certain dungeon and get a certain item.
To this day, even with the Wild era, my favourite style of Zelda is top-down 2D Zelda. Not just because that's how the series started, and where even one of the entries that constantly makes the "This is the best Zelda" candidacy, A Link to the Past, but also because I feel that the sort of deep dungeon and puzzles gameplay was best implemented in a 2D space. The 3D games have all been more one-on-one combat focused than anything else, which isn't a bad thing at all, but also makes them feel like almost completely different games compared to the 2D entries. The deepest puzzle you'll get in say Ocarina of Time, is entering a room and not really realizing there's an eye on the ceiling to shoot if you didn't look around, but it doesn't really get more complicated than that. You can argue the Water Temple, but it's mostly linear in how you have to raise and lower the water; a lot of players seem to forget the key under the block that raises up in the center area with the water level, which is why they get stuck a lot, haha. But compare this to any of the 2D Zeldas, after Zelda 1 anyway, and their mechanics are much more involved and varied than just that. Link's Awakening is a perfect example actually, with an example in Level 7, The Eagle's Tower. You have to figure out how to carry that iron ball throughout the dungeon to wreak havoc on all the pillars, so you can destroy the upper floor; I don't think anything on that scale exists in any of the 3D games. Or how about Oracle of Seasons' Magnetic Gloves, with those rotating metal poles that you have to use to push Link over massive gaps, playing with the polarity? Or Oracle of Ages' Switch Hook, which definitely ramps up the puzzles on how to place Link and swappable objects to hold down switches. I haven't seen this kind of puzzle depth in any of the 3D Zelda games, which is why I feel Zelda shines best as a top-down, 2D experience. Even if it has faux 3D mechanics, like jumping with the Roc's Feather/Roc's Cape, or changing floors with stairs in A Link to the Past.
That water temple block is also on the floor behind the chest in the room that you get the longshot if I remember correctly...so not only is it forgotten, it's most often overlooked. I always knew I liked the 2D games, but after recently finishing Seasons again and starting Ages for the first time, I didn't realize HOW great they are. And I love have confined their worlds are but their dungeons are intricate and the item mechanics are really clever.
@@LittleBeanGreen You know, it's kind of funny, I actually feel the same way about Pokemon. The best games in the series are still the older, 2D ones, before Gen 6. The reason why I feel that way is because they're the only ones, barring remakes, that still have the deeper level design that we're just talking about. Ever since the main series officially went 3D in Gen 6, the level design has lost nearly all of its metroidvania style elements that were present in the 2D games; there are no more field usage HM moves (Strength, Surf, etc.), which means there's also no reason to return to a previous area, since there are no new side paths and optional dungeons to discover like before. I don't know why such bland, hallway-like and empty level design is what's popular currently. It was even worse in Sword and Shield, where the only two caves in the game are both single floor and also hallways.
I prefer old. My favorite games in the series are LTTP, LA, (especially) OOT , MM and the Oracles (more so Ages but Seasons also rules. I love the rest too but those ones are all perfection. I like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess a lot but they also can't help but feel like imitations of Ocarina wthout quite measuring up. I actually give Skyward Sword a lot more credit than a lot of the fanbase seems to for being far more willing to take risks. It's not that the modern ones are bad by any means, I think Link Between Worlds is phenomenal for example. I like Breath a lot and Tears improved on it in everyway too but I don't want them to be the only style moving forward. To be fair though, even with their overwhelming success I don't actually think that they will be. Give me classic dungeons and music please.
Definitely. I thought that Tears' dungeons were definitely better than Breath's but both games had bottom five dungeons over all (I think Breath, with the exception of Hyrule Castle had the weakest ones in the series). Having a huge explorable area with detailed physics is cool as hell but I want items that change how I can interact as well as the Sheikah Slate type stuff. Exploring in Breath/Tears rules but it would be even better with a Hookshot or Roc's Cape or Ocarina-style Tunics or any number of other options. It's very neat to be able to go anywhere practically from the word go but I'm completely in favor of the world opening gates for me the more I explore.
Exactly and also having the game world open for you slowly helps the experience to feel like what you are doing actually matters to the world. I see it a lot in modern games where somehow people have become convinced that having any kind of structure is to be avoided. There's certainly the other side to that idea, where too much structure is also a negative but I would certainly err on the side of more vs less. Hell even Super Metroid, a game and series that is famous for letting the player do things unguided is still discreetly guiding the the player down a relatively constrained path. I think the illusion of freedom in games is more important to creating a memorable experience than actually complete freedom. I look to Ocarina, a game that I and many people consider to be the pinnacle of game design. Sure there's a specific order to doing the adult dungeons but it's still pretty loose. For exampel the game doesn't tell you to go to Ice Cavern until you beat the Forest and Fire Temples but I nearly always do it as one of the first things after becoming Adult Link. I also like to do the Fire Temple before I even set foot in the Forest Temple just because I can. I absolutely love this series, it's my favorite game series by far and in general my favorite pieces of media over all. My wife is also a pretty much rabid fan, we named our daughter after the princess, these games will always have my heart but there are still things that I hope for moving forward.
@@swampert564 Yeah I think being guided when you don't know you're being guided is great. Perhaps there's a way to do that where whatever path you choose leads to an objective (dungeon) that you can complete without it being as obvious as literally putting dots on a map.
I fell in love with the old zelda games that i named my daughter after them. There is a reason there is many open world games but only one series created "Zelda Likes"
Zelda hasnt been the same sense the switch stuff came out. I wish Nintendo would go back to being story driven with multiple large dungeons with item rewards in them and fun ending boss's. The open world can work within classic Zelda formula it will just take some light modifications to get right.
Most of what you described when you talked about the classic Zeldas is, in fact, nostalgia. You felt excitement for the boss door in the Forest Temple bc you knew what was behind it and you straight up said Seasons pays homage to (even) older titles, thus scratching that nostalgia itch. I don't think the Wild era games are perfect by any means, but the rose tinted glasses most fans continually look at linear Zelda through have got to come off at some point.
I also said I prefer that certain out of style elements cannot be so easily cheesed, but I did say they were out of style. Giddiness at the locked boss door could be nostalgia, it could also very well be that I unwove a dungeon for the first time in forever and I was eagerly anticipating its climax. And I made mention that those old games have parts where you have to hit your head against a wall before you can move on. Is disliking that nostalgia? The Oracle games pay homage to the old games through characters and items - but I also said they stamp an identity of their own. The level design in them is great, regardless of time period. Is that nostalgia? Some may remember those games fondly - what I was getting at is that there are still portions of those games that work because they're good, not because I liked them when I was 12.
I think if; - the Zelda team focused on making temples and dungeons with element theme in mind - the map size was half of breath of the wild yet all new and multi climatic across the landscape - the traditional weapons were only accessible through the dungeon - the world had a blacksmith - the player could still obtain other weapons all over the place but they all had pros and cons - the storyline was in your face and emphasized 1/3 less then the cutscenes amount in ocarina of time - the towns and settlements were about 10 different places all featuring their own ways of life - link could have more influential side quests which change the town - a new villain introduced like a bad wizard who hates ganon or outcasted shiekah or some new tribe who simply live in the lands past Hyrule - link could have a musical instrument to alter a few things - link could conjure spells and use medallions that literally give him buffs like link to the past - there was more enemy variety - link had many more mini games to do - link could literally fish no bomb fishing - there were no compendium although there was a booklet at a Hyrule library which featured all the information and new players could read it. - deku nuts could stun foes and eventually link could learn the teleport trick with a deku nut like shiek OoT. - the art style was somewhat ocarina of Time blended with Twilight princess - there could be a dark world or a time leap Am I just sounding like I'm description a improved OoT... Oh no ..
A lot of these are good - I'm going to work up a series of videos with a story line and gameplay for what I'd like the next Zelda to be....and there's a lot of that stuff in here.
Kinda funny how Aonuma doesn't want old school limitations in Zelda games considering that Majora's Mask does include those limitations and turned out to be a masterpiece
I think Aonuma was right about what he said. There a very clear "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality right now and people are glorifying the old games as if they have no flaws. The gameplay of Zelda games has always been made of 3 aspects. Item-based exploration, puzzles and combat. From Aonuma’s perspective, it’s quite reasonable to think the new games are better. The worlds are bigger, more detailed, have more stuff to find and a lot more ways to interact with it. Puzzles are based on incredibly versatile and complex mechanics that allow them to be flexible enough to be tackled in many different ways. And while some may find issue with your ability to cheese puzzles, this also works the other way around. You can easily attempt a more challenging solution by doing challenge runs (TotK without the paraglider is pretty insane for example). Combat has also received a massive upgrade due to Link‘s moveset, better enemy AI, a higher enemy threat level, a complex weapon system etc. Items are also significantly better in the new games, not just because there are a lot more of them in them, but these items are also significantly more complex and versatile, instead of being glorified keys that become rather useless outside of their dungeons. The core gameplay is significantly better in the new games and that’s partially due to the multiplicative design in them. And for that design to properly work, you kinda need to be less restrictive and allow for a bit of wiggle room…otherwise you end with something like Wind Waker, which features an open ocean that heavily clashes with a linear dungeon order and item formula that makes early exploration unrewarding and a waste of time.
I could see how that may be - but as I said in the video, there are great things in the new games and there are great things in the old games and I think they can complement each other in the next title. The old games certainly have flaws (as do the new ones) and anyone saying different is selling you something.
Without question, yes. Everything up to 4 swords adventure was amazing. I personally didn't like TP much but enjoyed it. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask will always be the best to me, and I really like both NES Zelda's, the Gameboy games.
Just having the classic games like oot, the oracle games and the original spoken about puts a smile on my face all the time. Also I have been making the argument that the original game is not quite as "anti-linear" as many classic naysayers would have you believe. So glad you brought that up, it still has that beloved item progression structure that served as the progenitor to metroidvanias and classic zelda games. I think as many in the comments have said and you as well did, the answer lies in taking that metroidvania aspect which serves as the true core to what made Zelda great and someone getting it to do the fusion dance with botw/totk's overworld design. A brief example being the overworld being fully explorable but certain parts of it are locked off until you get specific items or abilities. These locked off parts housing dense puzzle box dungeons that involve the items needed to reach it's area, housing more items and abilities when you conquer them. The initial items or abilities needed to reach the early unreachable areas themselves being found in dungeons hidden within this sprawling overworld that can be overcome with only things available at the start of the game.
Yeah, it's really difficult to know where I want the series to go from here, because I love most of the directions the mainlines have taken. I guess my answer is that I hope the developers keep switching it up and keep the innovation in gameplay coming. I even love a really well executed gimmick. I don't want the Zelda team to feel like they have to keep the era of the wilds gameplay at the expense of tradition and vice versa.
I miss using a hookshot, double clawshot or the Zora's mask. The lack of cool items you can find in dungeons and then use in the world to continue exploring is why I like the old Zelda games more. I don't think many people are against the open world and storyline that isn't fully linear, but against the new style of weapons having durability, and not really having anything special to look forward to while progressing.
I grew up with Oot, MM WW TP… and while I fully admit these got many things done a lot better such as story,dungeons, music and I could go on and on explaining why they’re better games… I’m still more interested in this new direction because if Zelda team strikes a better balance between the 2 styles it would make it the ultimate Zelda game. I always thought wind waker was almost that balance between open and linearity but exploration in WW is not that great considering the empty sea however it shows you can have some linearity within an open world.
i hope that for the next ones they have both, they could still have an open world and many self contained problems and obstecles from the new games yet also have grand dungeons and a slihtly more linear story from the older games. atleast for me that would be the best of both worlds!!
@@LittleBeanGreen i am shoked!! i have rarely gotten comments from the youtuber who made the video!! let alone in the first 7 hours after making the comment!! hmm…. perhaps i shall subscribe for that!! perhaps!!
Totk and botw brought a new vision to Zelda.but it’s not Zelda,Zelda isn’t a free roam complex mechanics.like what makes zelda zelda is that it’s a small great world with amazing dungeons with some amazing side quests this is why i prefer majoras mask>ocarina of time >windwaker>twilight princess>>>totk>botw.with those games I listed above botw and totk for the reason that it’s has a small/simple world with a great story and not so complex mechanics.I really hope we return to the old tradition of zelda (even if we don’t I’ll still play any Zelda game that comes out lol)
Honestly, I think more restriction in the overworld will make the story and the exploration better. The ability to climb is fun but inherently has to force the developers to not care where you've come from or where you want to be (physically and in the plot). While some open ended solutions in the world can be great (as in A Link Between Worlds), some type of linearity or structure needs to be maintained. I am also of the opinion that plot requires restriction to be engaging. Doing things in any order forces great compromise. While physics can be a fun gimmick and be better involved in better and more engaging puzzles in future titles the ability to make contraptions take away from the tone of the game. Not being able to make use of weapons you like because they're worthless and of more value in your inventory than used its not really fun to engage in the combat (even if rewards were better), which is a major issue in Tears and Breath. When it comes to dungeons just do better Nintendo. Make use of what you learned in previous titles and figure out some new ideas (that don't make the places worthless or uninspiring to traverse nor solve. NPCs can be improved on. Side quests too. Majoras mask did this great over 20 years ago. Make use of music to evoke feelings when you're out in the overworld. A handful of sparse piano notes leaves me in apathy at best. Its supposed to be an adventure. While I recognize more involved music could get old when you spend soo much time with it just make longer scores or something less intrusive. As yall may tell Im a bit frustrated and I can go on but for my own sanity ill stop there. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Glad you have a solid good take on this. I love the new games, but I still really like every Zelda I've played. The only issue I have is when the old heads talk shit on the new games with shit like "The new games are missing something that makes it Zelda," "It's so lifeless," and other such stuff saying they're bad. Like, it's fine if you don't like it, but to say that the franchise is dead or ruined and the games are bad feels like such a nostalgia-drunk take.
To be fair, a lot of the young bucks talk that same shit about the old games - it's just dogs barking at each other over a fence. I'd just like to see them try and integrate the old and new styles, once, as an experiment, see what happens.
@@LittleBeanGreen That's fair cause, they're both wrong. The old games aren't out of date, they were iconic when they came out and they're still iconic now. The new games are expansive and open and give you a wide way to traverse however you want. I remember when I first tried Minish Cap on the WiiU several years ago, I was initially underwhelmed cause "the graphics were old." Then I ACTUALLY started playing and it and I was like, "Wow, I was wrong AND dumb, this plays great and honestly looks great too." And on them integrating both styles of gameplay? Dude, that would be the shit. Open, wide world. With several dungeon with dedicated items as per previous games. A linear story that is SET UP to be followed, but CAN be tackled in any order. Certain puzzles and side quest IN that open world that have a couple different ways to be solved, some with dungeon items, some with not. You were 100% right, I hope the answer is "The next one."
While the two latest games were not bad, if you're not speed-running they have no replay value. I only had the curiosity once, now I know what to expect if not exactly what to find where. The mechanics are built around sandboxes but are somehow squished in an adventure game. So while you would like to experiment with the mechanics the limited resources make you stick to known working strategies. For example the zonai devices: While I would have like to build crazy machines, and have fun with the mechanics, the thought of having to grind the underground for resources made me just build basic stuff or avoid them altogether. Also the story was so disconnected from the game-play that to re-experience it I'd much more likely watch a youtube video with the cut scenes.
It also doesn't help that you have one save file - I didn't interact with the building/crafting mechanics any more than I had to, many because glitchy, shitty ARK ruined that for me ha
To me, "old zelda" or "classic zelda" still means the open world nonlinear style original. The newer linear stuff was cool, but I'm really glad the series finally returned to the classic nonlinear style. I had been hoping for that for so long, having complained about the new zelda style for so long before BotW.
The original was definitely more dungeon heavy and you could do some out of order, but certainly not all of them, and the game seems to be designed so that you do them in order. It's also possible to do dungeons out of order in OoT. I would maybe consider the first Zelda game open-overworld....kind of, if you don't have the candle, or raft, or know how to make it through the lost woods, those things are all like soft locks.
@@LittleBeanGreen You can go straight to level 8 if you buy a candle. There are some restrictions early on, but that's normal for an open world game. You don't always get the whole world at once.
@@LittleBeanGreen yeah, unless you're really good. But you have the option to do it. You can do probably 5 of the dungeons in whatever order, and you can straight up skip some pretty major items. It's a sandbox for the player to decide what they want to do.
@@bfish89ryuhayabusa maybe I don't know what 'open world' or 'sandbox' really means but I don't feel like the original Zelda is that...I've have to do some research.
@@LittleBeanGreen Yeah, it just checks pretty much all the boxes for an amazing Zelda game to me. A large open world filled with all kinds of stuff to explore, fun characters, surprisingly well done character animations for the time (I replayed it recently and holy hell, especially Midnas animations during cutscenes were really detailed), exciting and creative dungeons and items, an endearing antagonist and of course the music
Games need restrictions. Otherwise they are by definition not games. Not only are the new games the worst in the series by a wide margin, they are two of the worst games Nintendo has ever published. If any other developer tried releasing games of that poor quality they would be the laughing stock of the industry.
The problem is that those two recent games, by modern gaming standards, are technical achievements, which function as intended, and with zero glitching/bugs. This sets them leagues and bounds above any other AAA game in presentation alone. I still maintain that they take ultrahand, the sandbox, and the crafting and make it into it's own franchise.
@@LittleBeanGreen And the big budget Disney blockbusters from the past decade tend to be incredibly polished and fully functional movies, that doesn’t change the fact that they’re soulless and artistically bankrupt products that only exist to rake in the cash. I’d much rather replay a game like Fallout New Vegas than either of the open world Zelda’s because it’s systems are inherently better designed in spite of its bugginess.
@@theplinko9840 But when all movies of the past decade are soulless and artistically bankrupt products, any movie goer would generally prefer a polished and fully functional movie. My point is that studios HAVE put out games worse than this and they are a laughing stock and the only reason Zelda isn't is because it functions.
I wanna say old Zelda is better overall. Think about it this way, old Zelda's classic 3D formula carried the franchise for a solid 15 years before it finally began to feel stale by the time Skyward Sword came out. We're two games (or 6 years) into Breath of the Wild's formula and it's already beginning to show that open-world fatigue. Granted, I could be attributing this to Tears looking and feeling like a glorified expansion pack to BOTW--- maybe if Tears dropped players into a brand new map with slightly different artstyle (or tone) it could've solidified the success of BOTW's reboot ambitions (other than in terms of sales). Every Zelda game up until Tears felt like it was built from the ground up with a unique artstyle and tone in mind. Tears is just BOTW2. It's a literal sequel but they gave it its own name. I understand that it's a very polished game with creative mechanics, but something about it doesn't do it for me.
I mean ppl complained when skyward sword had the most story but also had to be linear bc of it ( I thought it was a solid title), then comes botw and totk, absolute freedom in how you traversed caves, depths, sky islands, surface, etc. Trying to combine that level of freedom with a story focused game is probably impossible without implementing a road block for the player, kinda like aLBW with their dungeons, you can't enter them without showing proof you had the item. Sure recent titles had smaller temeples/dungeons but are ppl forgetting how vast the other parts are? When you think zelda ocarina of time, you don't think of hyrule field or even gerudo valley, your first thoughts are usually the temples. Anyways as a zelda fan since the 90s it's just good appreciate what nintendo tries to do to innovate and self improve. I'm on board with whatever they attempt next with zelda.
I think the empty Hyrule Field and Gerudo Valley were largely limits of the N64 - imagine the detail of the Era of the Wild titles in the overworld with the theming and puzzles of the OoT dungeons...I think that's what most of us would like to see.
People dogged on Skyward Sword *a lot* when it came out and a lot of people still think it's the weak link in the series. BoTW more or less was a reaction to the critical hounding SS got. I don't think you're going to see Nintendo mix up the formula again unless they make a game that gets SS-levels of disappointment in its reception. Zelda's dev team especially tends to be 'stick with what's working' over 'revolutionize for no reason'. In other words, I think it's hopeless. If Nintendo still made portable handhelds I'd say they might try to do something with a side studio for the handheld market, but that's no more either. It's gonna be BoTW-styled mainline games and 2D retro games ala LANS for a long time, I'm afraid.
My favourite by far is Majora's, and though it does lean heavily on the older style, it's also its own thing. That's the thing, innovation is key, I am glad they did BotW, but TotK was a mistake
I love MM too - that's what Tears should've been something connected to the previous but in essence its own thing. Probably easier said than done when you reuse the world map.
What I would love to see the next game to be, is a mix of new and old zelda. The dungeon need to be more linear and the overworld need to stay open (like ALBW). The story should be presented ONLY before and after a temple. No more memory please. Also, maybe add secret temple. 152 shrines is way too much, espacialy when 70 of them are blessing. Or keep the blessing with shrine and make all the puzzle one a real dungeon. Every 10 shrine they remove could be a small temple insted. I think this could be very nice. I cant wait for what they have next, but for now, we got to let them cook.
Interesting. I've played no video games since the 90s (dabbled with the OG NES and Gameboy; but favorite game was the OG Sim City, Sid Meier's Civilization and Sid Meier's Pirates. Yes I apparently like open world games) I heard BOTW was really good so I decided make it my first video game in 30 years. Let's just say I got hooked; 300+ hours and am almost at the end now (yes taking my sweet time; sometimes I just enjoy aimlessly riding around and bashing a monster or three). Anyway, after playing BOTW almost the entire plane flight to Asia and back in the past two weeks (getting through the 1st and 2nd sword trial, and then doing the four blights one after the other - with full upgraded armor and commensurate weapons they were beaten easily in the first try....), I was BOTW'd out - and intrigued by the old school Zeldas. I chose to try the remastered Links Awakening (I never played the gameboy version), and unfortunately it's not working out so well for me. I've paused for now at the cards monster in the first dungeon - it seems so limited. And I don't like some of the puzzles. (I do like the graphics/music, and the larger variety of monsters) Feeling bored, I dropped it, and found trying to grind Lynels again (even with fully upgraded Guardian armor and ++ Guardian weapons if I screw up I get clobbered....) and getting my 19th Shrine in the Hebra area more enjoyable for whatever reason. (and Hebra is probably the worst area - rather empty; probably the best example of some of the BOTW criticisms) I'll finish LA, and am committed to doing ALLTP, OoT, and MM over the next year or so before going to TOTK..... but hopefully one of those three will entice me better..... That said, based on what I've heard, I'm also in the camp of "the next Zelda should sync BOTW and the traditional Zelda formula". And for that matter, IMO BOTW could have been better if they had maybe 2-3x the variety of monsters, and filled the space with more stuff. (to include a few more villages scattered around)
Sure, every open world game's better with more content. The problem is, you're asking a lot by that point. That's how you get R* style crunch where people are working 12 hours a day with a lot of that being unpaid overtime to get the latest masterpiece out at launch. Content requires man hours, and open world games already take long dev cycles just to make in the first place, especially nowadays with open worlds being absolutely massive and the demand for content being sky-high (that's why the aforementioned R* released a half dozen titles for the PS2 back when and now takes eight year long stretches between any releases at all in the present).
I think they should flip the script and find new ground again like they did with Breath of the Wild and make something new. Maybe this time an incredible side-scroller Metroidvania that would give Metroid Dread a run for its money. A proper Zelda 2: Adventure of Link game.
I've only played through maybe the first dungeon in that game but seeing some of the 'walk through walls' and 'fall through floors' mechanics of that game.....they should definitely either a. remake that game or b. do a ALttP/ALBW thing and make a sequel.
I want zelda to still go for the sandbox style but make the enviroments feel more alive and fun to explore with more diverse visuals and not just copy n pasting. We know that progression in zelda games can be controversial but the best zelda game that handled this the best for the standard gamer (aka not using glitches to sequence break) is Zelda A Link Between Worlds, in that game the item's rental feature lets you tackle objectives and dungeons in any order you want aslong as you don't get a game over. This is easier said than done but for modern sandbox zelda games I would like for Nintendo to do a similar style like this. That way we can still have a massive lovely sandbox game but with more stuff to interact and see. without it feeling like a boring dull chore. I still love Link to the Past, Majora's Mask n Wind Waker from my childhood, we all know that Nintendo will still keep on making retro style zelda games either with remakes or new entries. I was able to manage playing breath of the wild and still love it in 2024 tho it's a massive game, but by my standards it wasn't so bloated to the point it became boring and dull like tears of the kingdom. My expectations with tears of the kingdom was so high like alot of fans that it ended up disappointing me and alot of people to, with how mid af the game is and that stupid undeserved high price point. It also doesn't help that Eji Aonuma has been very ignorant and unprofessional with the fanbase treating the series's legacy as if it's complete shit and should be forgotten about. I just went to the standard finish for Tears of the Kingdom, it's a good game but it feels so painfully mid af after such a long wait, also the ignorant behaviour from Eji has left a sour taste in my mouth for the future of the series that last year I just decided to stop thinking about zelda and think more about the indie games like Pizza Tower n Bombrush Cyberfunk and even dusting off my backlog and I feel alot better doing this rather than thinking about tears of the kingdom or holding my "Breath" (Bah dum tish) for a good future of the zelda games. If you really love Tears of the Kingdom then that's good for you but playing sandbox games can be very draining and TotK is where I just feel that Zelda is no longer for me and I even love Breath of the wild but that game has it's own reasons for why I love it with one of the reasons is that it was Nintendo's first Sandbox game and it's from 2017 on handheld device so alot of things I can forgive especially since alot of companies even nintendo were still figuring out smart ways to cram in as much as possible. Take care everyone and sorry for this long silly post, this isn't a grumpy vent but my thoughts on modern zelda and that it's okay to just admit that this series might not be for you anymore and I'm ok with just moving on. I wish you all the best everyone
@@LittleBeanGreen You'll most likely like it man, at first I thought it was pretty stupid back when first played it around 2013 or something but I gave it another shot in 2017 and I wanted to punch 2013 me in the face for talking smack on it. Players should have the choice to tackle any objective in any way they want but there does need to be some restrictions to get through specific events of a game to make it feel more rewarding and not just a massive checklist.
I loved BOTW but it was extremely lacking in way the games that I love, mainly OOT and TP had in spades. I agree it needed a change but at the same time the fact is it has no hero’s journey or real lore. Even just real continuity like the old games had leaves so so so much to be desired. I think the old needs to be blended with the new. I don’t think going one way or the other is the answer.
Honestly, The Weapon Breaking Mechanic in BOTW and TOTK was what I hated most about those games. Fortunely I had TOTK Day 1 and was able to Transfer the MSGnotfound from the Prologue into the Main Game and I found I enjoy TOTK A LOT more than BOTW because of it.
@@LittleBeanGreenThe Prologue Master Sword that you can transfer into the Main Game through a Glitch in earlier versions of the Game. It is called the MSGnotfound in it's description.
I can't say which zelda is better for they're both too different, and that's exactly the problem. You might as well make them a separate ip and franchise entirely, and that's where the split comes in. Old zelda was tightly dense with interesting areas, new items, enemy variety and a sense of discovery that lasted start to finish. New Zelda wears out its welcome as in 20-30 hours you see the majority of what the things are before they get stale, but the games have far grander worlds and much better and creative tools to work with, and is much easier to pick up, play and replay.
“old Zelda” is anything before Wind Waker. And honestly, we can truly say the Miyamoto era doesn’t include Majora’s Mask/Four Sword. We are still in Aonuma’s era of Zelda, and the Open Air era is a nuance. That all being said, I hope to see a Miyamoto game one day. It may be in the form of the movie, but I love the new games while simultaneously missing the Miyamoto era
I would basically include anything up to Skyward Sword as 'old zelda' - only because most everything from ALttp - SS built on that traditional formula.
Honestly breath and tears don’t even make my top 10 Zelda games. So yeah old Zelda was better. Matter of fact since I’ve first remember hearing Aunoma harp on about changing things (post twilight Princess) I think only link between worlds has cracked my top ten. (1. Link to the past 2. Ocarina of Time) (3. Link’s awakening 4. Majora’s Mask 5. Seasons 6. Ages) (7. Twilight Princess 8. Link between Worlds 9. Minish Cap 10. Wind Waker) () are more or less tiers
I can't say old is objectively better, but I can say I massively prefer the release frequency. Like half of the Zelda franchise released between 1998-2005, meanwhile in the modern day, that same span of time only held BotW and it's sequel (well plus a couple spinoffs). As someone who doesn't care too much for this new style of Zelda, it's been 13 years (more than half my life) since the last traditional 3D Zelda and a decade since the last 2D. If the next game takes another 5-6 years to make, I will have spend the majority of my life waiting for a title that resonates with me again. I don't think old or new is definitely better, or 3D vs 2D, I just want more more often if possible. Not rushed, just not droughts
Here is my take on this: Link to the Past, Ocarina, and Majora are examples of the right way to make a linear Zelda. You will find one part of the map that you can’t access, and once you find a dungeon item you can go back to it. This design philosophy works inside of the dungeons as well. Skyward Sword is not how to make a linear Zelda game. There is no exploration, instead it’s a bunch of linear segments that lead up to a dungeon. The dungeons in that game are great, but the overall experience is too limited. Breath of the Wild is how to make a great open world game. The Great Platesu is a microcosm of how the rest of the world works. Every environment, every shrine, and every major dungeon was curated to incorporate all of the abilities you get at the start of the game. Hyrule Castle is the best open world Zelda dungeon by far. Tears of the Kingdom doubles down on the freedom aspect, and it’s a worse open world game and a worse Zelda game because of that decision. The Great Sky Island fails at being a microcosm of the rest of the game, because there is no environmental puzzle solving that isn’t in the sky. The game is too open to completely break, which makes the level design garbage. For a future Zelda game, I would like to see the world design of A Link to the Past be expanded upon to a larger open world. This world design would be pretty similar to Elden Ring. A Link to the Past had sets of dungeons to complete, meaning you had to complete one set to move onto the next one. Each dungeon in this future blend between open world and linear Zelda could utilize the abilities found at the start of the game, and you unlock a new ability/item in the dungeon. If we had a segmented open world with dungeons as well designed as the one found in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword then that could be the best Zelda game ever made.
Both are good in their own ways. They just need to combine the old gameplay with the new. Keep the open world but give us a good solid Story and Traditional puzzle dungeons . And heart pieces. Away with the Mini shrines.
Hm I replyed to you but I think TH-cam didn't like it......anyway you said you'll die on that hill and I merely mentioned that some others may have heavy involvement in that death ha.
@LittleBeanGreen relating to the video, i think the main issue boils down to variety. i think both styles of Zelda should exist. but companies tend to like "going in a new direction" quite a bit, so instead of adding variety, it kinda just replaces one thing with the other. which, on it's own isn't an issue, but when more and more companies are trying to be the same as eachother, it does get a little fatiguing. granted, the point i just made was a little off topic.
Fun fact: it's not objective, it depends on play style and personal tastes and every zelda game has stuff that is annoying or that isn't as much fun as you hoped. My favorite is wind waker and totk, (though I like oot and tp and alttp) for different reasons and both have stuff i wish was better, though I love totk for what it is and honestly wouldn't change it. And most people can (and do) like both kinds of games. But most Fandoms, the gaming community in general, and even the internet as a whole always likes to pit things against each other or place them in a hierarchy, often bc its amusing to argue dumb stuff or it generates views. I say: Like what you like, don't like what you don't. And as for the future of the franchise, so, so, so, so many people literally have said they want a detailed overwored but restricted, t traditional linear dungeons. And everything suggests Nintendo isn't gonna do just another botw/totk for their next game, if only bc of backlash. They made BOTW the way it is bc of backlash about SS being too linear and having annoying mechanics, despite it having a great story and tying into lore neatly. They will likely do the same. I think people expected totk to be that, but the had already been developing it before botw was released and were doing it the way they did bc they were recycling the sane engine, world and assets. Be glad they did an open world botw imitation for its direct sequal and not for some highly anticipated future game on a new console or something. Plus, botw totk has an amazing visual aesthetic that past games can't match. Plus, I think may of the complaints about the way they went about open world (i.e. copy paste style puzzles, bad mechanics on the sages, limited enemy types, etc) is bc of console limitations, bc the switch is barely strong enough to handle totk's mechanics. With a better console they might be able to add more variety in monster design, puzzle design, dungeon design, create a world designed around mechanics that doesn't need handicaps and cool downs, etc. That is, if fans let them even do open world in the future
You know - when you can seamlessly travel from sky to ground to depths, and can recall an item that falls anywhere between at any time, I don't believe that having less enemy variety is actually a limit of the hardware. Any puzzles that happen in the shrines loaded in and self-contained, so even that I don't buy. And certainly having sages follow you around and you have to run up to them and push A to get them to do anything is not a limitation, just a bad design choice. You're right, it's not objective - I said there are great things in the old games and great things in the new games, and what I would like to see is that they blend the good with the good, instead of shirking the good things but old things simply because they're old. ...I do love the art style. It seems like they've been building to it every since WW.
@@LittleBeanGreen I assumed it was adding the mechanics that limited other things. But i guess what type saying is get rid of those, but that's my favorite aspect. The defining feature of the game. But I get the point of what youre saying and I don't know much about computer programming. And I'm glad that you still see merit in both types of games, but honestly I didn't get that message from a casual viewing And honestly I have never thought the developers were interested in the temple and sage-oriented stuff. They seem to just not care and only add it to appease fans. They've always seemed to put all their time and energy into the overworld.l in both games. I think the shrines puzzles often beat most temple puzzles in past games, and a lynel fight is harder for a new player than most of the blights or temple bosses. But I think i would love totk still even if it had zero temples or sages
It's all well and good to say like what you like, but big game companies with big pocket books have to make decisions, and those decisions ultimately have to involve displeasing some branch of their fanbase in favor of another branch. So you can 'like what you like' and then never get decent content revolving around what you like for literal decades. I like Spyro. You know what there hasn't been since 1999? A good Spyro game revolving around its classic formula. The entirety of the *Iraq War* came and went without seeing a good Spyro game - or even anything that *tried* to capture its formula. The remakes in 2018 were unironically the brightest beacon of hope, and they, too, came and went without seeing a proper sequel to one of my favorite franchises of all time. There were a couple fan projects, and they've pretty much died. Sure, you can learn to program and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and 'be the change' and all that, but you're ultimately just one person and there's only so much you can do. So, like what you like - but the world oftentimes doesn't like what you like, and when it decides group B is more favorable than group A, there's gonna be fighting and drama and controversy. It's just the way societies go. Of course, you can choose to like everything - but sometimes, people have preferences, and it's not wrong to have preferences either. You shouldn't be mean about them, but it's been, what? 13 years since the last 'old formula' mainline Zelda? And a lot of people didn't even like that one. Babies have grown up and are now in middle school in the time it's taken since. There's gonna be some disgruntlement. People don't get younger.
Ideally Nintendo would just split off a studio to do both. And, in the olden days, this might've been what Nintendo would've done. But modern games are a *massive* investment in terms of programmer labor and, well, money. Modern open world games even more so. In the end the next Zelda sequel's gonna need all hands on deck, and they can't justify devoting any spare programmers to making interval games. Which is a tragedy, because it takes 5+ years just to launch new titles nowadays and remakes don't fill the void like dev studios wish they did. One good Ocarina-style game between BoTW and ToTK would have sated the itch a lot, and I betcha it wouldn't have taken that long to develop compared to ToTK. The only thing I can conceivably see is the industry collectively deciding to set a hard limit on the sizes of open world games, but open world *sells* nowadays, so I can't foresee that happening. Everything's trending bigger, vaster, more content, more dev hours. It's not enough to have something the size of Kansas, it has to be half the continental US now. No, it has to be all of North America. And, well, you just don't have time for side projects when you have to code content for game worlds the size of a whole state.
i think its hard to compare old zelda with new zelda. there is not a really a "better" bc botw/totk are too different from, lets say, majoras mask or oot. yes, they are both zelda but they do feel like different games, even different genres. imo it all comes down to personal taste and what formula you prefer
which is why I said there is good in both and what could potentially make the best zelda game is combining the good elements from the old games with the good elements from the new games.
Old zelda is better they had actual stories and had proper tools to experiment with instead of game breaking abilities like new zelda has where you don't even have to think to solve puzzles plus the story is basically doesn't exist in the new ones
For the next game, I think they should give us a huge beautiful overworld to explore where we can do whatever the hell we want but with dungeons that restrict you. Oh, and a more engaging story.
Sounds perfect to me.
They're incompatible in terms of game design. Classical Zelda dungeons (and we'll ignore Zelda I/II since their dungeons are really just combat challenges) are puzzle boxes with gating based on key items, revolving around lateral thinking. Open world anything... can't function with key items, by nature of its design. The player *has* to have all the tools to explore the world almost from the start, or else it's not an open world. So any 'key item' you can get in one dungeon has to be specific to that dungeon in an open world context. Its utilitarian function begins and ends where that dungeon's boundaries lie. Worse still, you can't have puzzles revolving around multiple sets of key items, because there's no way to guarantee the player will complete the dungeons in any set sequence. You'd get situations where you get a third of the way through one dungeon and then get stuck because you didn't get the key item from another dungeon (though you could just rent these key items instead ala ALBW, but this has its own problems - namely, spoilering the themes of any given dungeon because you'd have to be able to see these key items in the first place before anything, and also they'd still be useless in the overworld because you can't have progress gating based on key items because it's an open world game).
So you'd have dungeons with puzzles that can only be themed around one specific key item that is immediately rendered useless outside of that dungeon - at that point, why not just theme the puzzles around a specific set of tools the player already picked up beforehand? Like, I dunno, a magnet app on your mystical tablet...
And you can't have them be too long, either, because you'd quickly run out of ideas for puzzles involving your one key item for that specific dungeon. You don't want long arbitrary linear stretches in your open world game anyway, it disrupts the flow and the pace of exploration.
So, short stripped back dungeons involving tools the player already has access to. Probably want to have a lot of them to make up for the fact there's no big dungeons anymore.
Is any of this sounding familiar to you?
Yep, what we got in BoTW/ToTK is all the dungeon you can feasibly cram into the open world format. And they end up falling flat, because they're ultimately a half-baked compromise that doesn't scratch what Zelda dungeons are supposed to be about. Probably better to just get rid of them and focus exclusively on the exploration gameplay (which is what I suspect they're going to do with the next Zelda title).
And sure, open world games have dungeons and underground areas like TES or whathaveyou, but these aren't *Zelda dungeons*. They're more like Zelda I/II style dungeons where they're just combat challenges, kill a bunch of leveled enemies and loot old tombs.
Could Zelda I/II style dungeons work? Sure, probably. Nintendo's done combat-style dungeons in the past for 3D Zelda (Savage Labyrinth, etc) so we might see something like that make a comeback (hell, the Trial of the Sword more or less *was* this already). But that's not what you want. You want dungeons like OoT and Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, and it's just not happening.
@@slizzysluzzer If Zelda only becomes about exploring then I think that's a mistake.
botw and tears of the kingdom are still fun before you get the paraglider and runes
I dont think theres any harm in gating off certain things
@@slizzysluzzerI kinda skimmed your comment, but... Nah, they can absolutely make restrictive dungeons work with the BOTW overworld. All they have to do is take away the abilities of your magic tablet when you enter a dungeon. Give the player access to even more new abilities that they get to keep after exiting the dungeon or unlock some of your tablet's capabilities once you get certain keys. Either solution will work and all they have to say is "the power of evil is restricting your abilities." Put key locks on the dungeons to prevent you from accessing them in the wrong order along with a teleport nearby and you effectively have your old dungeon system back in most of its glory.
Not to mention that it speaks volumes to me that the moments in BOTW that people hail as being great are the moments that put more restriction on you. The journey up Zora's domain (unless you just glide off the Citadel tower,) the starting area, Eventide Island (unless you drop a bunch of weapons in the water before you walk onto the shore) and the DLC Sword trials.
The idealistic side of me doesn't want to call Aonuma lazy, but the cynical side of me thinks it's probably just easier for to make a big, open map and pepper it with lots of interchangeable bite sized content, then it is to make large-scale structured dungeons and ensure the player can never soft-lock themselves from progress.
It's almost as if restriction makes a game good.
100% agree. The best gameplay moments in TotK for me were the few shrines that actually forced me to think outside the box and recontextualize already existing mechanics. Which was only possible through restrictions.
@@lmnt66 I think they could've done a better job of intergrating that stuff into the actual world - caves would've worked great. No shrines, and caves give you restrictions to try to solve puzzles. I think something like that could work in the future - I don't particular like shrines, but if they became another part of the world and fleshed out a bit more....that could be cool.
Yeah, that‘s what I‘ve been hoping for TotK too. Don‘t segment the puzzle content from the overworld into disconnected, samey boxes, integrate them into the world through different POIs - be it caves, ruins, ruins within caves etc. - and basically transform them into mini dungeons. Add some unique architecture and lore to them- bam. Which afaik is what Elden Ring already does lol
@@lmnt66 WELL. hopefully I'll be chronicling all this is some upcoming concept videos for LoZ: Echoes of the Tide ;)
I prefer old Zelda.
I'd like to see if they could mix em.
@@LittleBeanGreenI'd have liked to see them just start a NEW IP with this instead of changing Zelda.
Yeah me too
Me too, I keep trying to play Breath of the Wild after playing all the others before it, and even I get lost in Majora's Mask or any other, I have exactly that feeling of getting lost and really not in the mood to play BOTW. Maybe I am the rare case that has enjoyed the less for this last one rather than the rest. Anyway. Also agree, a mix of both old and new could be the best way to go. Anyway. Cheers.
@@dynelol I think the survival crafting, physics, and ultrahand mechanics absolutely deserve to be the foundation of their own franchise.
I love both, but gotta go with classic 3d for my favorite. Mainly I miss the deeply themed dungeons, story pacing, and of course more impactful music. Going back and playing tears with my son while he beats it definitely reminds me how great it is but I've also replayed ocarina, wind waker, Majora's mask and twilight princess since and honestly like all of them more for the reasons I said above.
I just want dem dungeonsssssssssss
I feel like the marriage of the two design philosophies could make one of the best video games of all time. They just need to find that balance!
@@Night_Quest agree COMPLETELY.
@@Night_Quest Yep! If they can find the perfect balance we're looking at the best Zelda yet.
What Nintendo needs to do is quit the half arse nonsense and make their games on the unreal engine 5
The old formula and the new formula are different from one another and do different things better. No other game plays quite like old Zelda and I’ve seen too many games that play like the new Zelda, open world slop. In terms of gameplay, the new Zeldas almost never hit the same highs of the older games for me, and when you find new people discovering the older games day by day and loving them just as much as older people did, that’s how you know it’s not just nostalgia.
My most aggressive hot take is that star fox adventures is a better traditional Zelda game than tears of the kingdom or breath of the wild.
SF adventures is absolute trash. I hate that game. Don't insult any game, least of all Zelda.
HOT TAKE INDEED. I never thought about never playing a game like old Zelda and playing a bunch of games like new Zelda...hm. All I know is I'm in the middle of Oracle of Ages right now (which I've never played before) and I am entranced.
@@HoboWithAShotgun You can tell they shoe-horned Star Fox into that game. May have been different if they didn't make that decision.
I think Ages is probably the biggest "sleeper" game in the series. It's not unreasonable that it's largely off of peoples radar but god damn it's just an exceptional game. Easily the best GBC game (alongside it's sibling).
It's not. It's a weird mess of a game to be sure and almost certainly the weakest Rareware game of their Nintendo era but it's still a pretty solid game at the end of the day. You can absolutely hate but that doesn't mean it's bad. Though even the best Star Fox game isn't approaching Zelda tier anyway.
I prefer the old Zelda because I just try to focus on the main quest in the new Zelda, I need to grind those little shrines that are disconnected, ununique, small, metroivaniayless. for pure exploration with dungeon crawling I prefer Bethesda rpgs' open world map and dungeon design.
I certainly find the newer games to be more...lackadaisical with how you interact with the main story, which I don't particularly like.
I like the dungeons of the old games and the openness of the new ones, if the new zelda games manage to get better dungeons and puzzles they will be perfect.
love it!
They REALLY need to make another traditional Zelda! BotW and TotK were good, but this is not the Zelda formula we grew to love over the years.
Let's see what they do.
I think this is why alttp randos are so popular. It removes the linear aspect, and because of missing items, you have to think out of the box.
Interesting point - totally makes sense.
I do appreciate the vast open world with those small details, I really do. But the old 3D Zelda games were so intricately designed where even despite the masterful dungeons even things in the overworld are linked, one thing leads to another that leads to another ad infinitum.
It wasn’t just a fantasy game with puzzles, the exploration, the combat, and the actual puzzles themselves of course, WERE puzzles. Despite being smaller in scale the old Zelda games for me still felt bigger, more grand. Top it off with amazing atmosphere and storytelling and it’s just hard to describe. But that’s just my own opinion.
And I think that feeling can still be translated to the a new game...Nintendo just has to figure it out first.
@@LittleBeanGreen Here’s hoping. I miss the hookshot.
@@thelettucebarrel7784 I'll talk to Aonuma
Oracle of Seasons stands as my favorite Zelda game. I think the dungeons are a really good middleground between combat challenge and complex puzzles, and the world opening up in segments is really exciting (great examples being Tarm Ruins and the final dungeon, as you can get a peek at their entrances quite early)
The Oracle games feel like the most Metroidvania style to me.
Its honestly amazing that Aonuma could say such ignorant garbage despite being in the idustry as long as he has. If a game has no rules or restrictions then its basically not even a game anymore.
Aonuma is the kind of guy who would call chess restrictive because flipping the board isn't considered a legitimate strategy.
And people still love chess ha
A game that combines elements of classic 3D Zelda and botw style could be so awesome. I would love to see smaller "retro style" 3D titles come out between mainline titles too.
Or more bite-sized 2D games...maybe 10-20 hours to complete.
I mean books and movies are linear experiences like the old Zelda games but if it is well designed and made with some kind of love I will experience them again and again until I am no longer able to do so
linear does not equal bad. I don't know where this notion is coming from.
"Old" zelda is just better. Better themes, dungeons, songs, map design, progression.
I feel that - still think Nintendo could balance the old and new is the next one.
I think meeting in the middle would make the ultimate Zelda game. Still somewhat linear, but in a more tiered sense, with branching paths along the way, like the Shadow Temple/Spirit Temple choice you have in Ocarina. You have a huge world full of secrets to explore but it's not so vast that it becomes dull and repetitive like it does sometimes in the Switch games. In other words, every discovery is unique, and some challenges can't be completed without more gear, but you still have tons of freedom to explore off rip. Maybe you can show up to an endgame location, but you'll only be able to access a couple goodies and you're liable to get your ass whooped by the local fauna.
To me, one of the best experiences that defines classic Zelda is getting a new item because of how it's an upgrade, not just in your strength, but also in your ability to traverse the world. You're basically becoming a more effective explorer and the payoff is slowly coming to understand a lively, interconnected world. Expanding your access to that world from the get go would make it all the more electric when you get a new item and realize a ton of places in the overworld where it could be useful.
There would have to be some compromises made, like maybe you don't get a full on arsenal of tools but you several very useful ones that you acquire a long the way. But these philosophies would really complement each other if they were integrated into a single experience. The team behind BotW obviously considered all of this, but they should just reel it in and boom, no more losing to Baldur's Gate. Anyways great yap session.
I hear ya.
@@LittleBeanGreen my bad for the bohemian yapcity lol
@@FragLaw s'all good, baby!
"... in more of a tiered sense". This is how I envision my ideal Zelda. Basically the BotW/TotK engine, but with all of the abilities, including freeclimbing, unlocked in dungeons proper. I think a general overworld progression of [on foot > horseback > sailing > freeclimbing] would be a good start, maybe even with an open order, and of course with all the classic Zelda items sprinkled in between.
i dont really like the more open world zeldas. I like classic 3d personally.
You ain't alone.
Agreed!
The Zelder Scrolls
We talked about TotK the other day and I played a bunch over the weekend and it's been awhile since I had played it. My preference is still old style 3d Zelda and then 2d Zelda as a close second. Then the open world style (but I had a blast this weekend) then the touch screen style (still like PH and ST) and then the multiplayer style (fun with friends but that's it)
I think the open overworld of botw/totk with restricted dungeons would be awesome.
@@LittleBeanGreen yeah that would fix element of Zelda that is missing for me with them. The overworld would still have its issues but at that point it really might be preference. I would love to see the first trilogy and give Hero of the Wild one more game with traditional dungeons and a few more old school 3D Zelda elements like permanent items found in the dungeons and see how I feel about it then. The thing that might still be an issue is a clear narrative.
@@MrYutbe57 I think if Nintendo operated with a linear story as their starting point (not saying they START with a story) but if they come up with gameplay ideas, would they say 'ok how can we tell this story linearly' or 'if we don't, how can we have the player involved at each step" - I think those changes would go a long way to shoring up some of those other issues.
I played BOTW and TOTK first and liked it enough to play Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword. I like old Zelda better so its not nostalgia talking. But it was nice to be able to control the camera freely ngl lol
Yo I was playing Ocarina recently and the fact that I couldn't turn the camera was driving me nuts haha.
@@LittleBeanGreen You can't do it in Skyward Sword either, or you have to hold a button down. Pretty annoying tbh
@@ergob3907 Haven't played that game since its release - yikes. Thank gorb for these new zeldas 😅
I don't think it's just the dungeons and world as a whole. There's some mystique in the old Zelda when it came to the attention to detail in the storytelling. More compact areas allowed for more (and better) content to be absorbed. Better atmosphere, better and more relatable, realistic characters and their storylines. I am specifically thinking about Majora's Mask while writing this, and that is a very special game, but it sums most Zelda games since maybe A Link to the Past.
I think making the world smaller but more detailed would be a good route.
@@LittleBeanGreen On point. Maybe using more verticality instead of vastness in the open-world. Bigger towns with more "levels" and events to unfold. More things happening "despite of you" instead of "because of you" is something that would really improve that sense of discovery in a way. Perhaps even improve the Zelda formula as a whole.
@@zurkke take note, Nintendo!
No Koji Kondo compositions are a huge loss. I've heard people justify this by staying the atmospheric soundtrack in BoTW better compliments the game... but I've never been a fan of that logic. Open world games can have bombastic soundtracks. It doesn't need to be an all-or-nothing decision, where everything's purely atmospheric at all times. You can have great crescendos in combat encounters or in plot-heavy moments (and I found BoTW/ToTK's soundtrack lacking the most in these areas). You can have timed tracks play during certain cues like say, galloping through Hyrule Field on your horse (and the horse riding theme we got, plastered over every instance of you riding a horse, got real old real fast honestly).
@@slizzysluzzer Music has been a huge staple of the series and something that could've better connected to the newer games to their past.
I implore you to play a link between worlds if you can. It’s probably one of the most unique 2D Zelda games because of how you can get all of the dungeon items at the start. You have to rent or purchase them but you can get them in whichever order you would like and you can explore the world in whichever order you would like, all the while maintaining itself as a traditional Zelda game. If there is a way to merge new and old formulas I think the answer might lie somewhere in there.
I don't think I currently have any way to play it but I'll keep my eyes PEELED.
That was the game that gave them the testing grounds for the new style. (And then Triforce Heroes for clothing testing.)
And it has a bit of an identity crisis of being a ALttP remake and a proper sequel.
@@amandaslough125 I'll get to it one of these days. If ya'll prod me enough ha
@@LittleBeanGreen I recomend getting to it, if nothing else for the music, but it's my least favorite of the 2D. Aside from the original two. It didnt push itself hard enough and the item renting mechanic was a mistake, because it made the dungeons have the same issue as the Switch duo: everything designed to be a player's first.
I won't go into further detailing for the soft attempt at keeping it spoiler free. I just found it way too derivative. It might have a high production on a tech level, but I look beyond that, and I just rather play other options.
But I also rather do a 4th play through of TFH, consider Four Sword Adventures the best "save the sages" 2D zelda, and find the Capcom Zeldas the best overall. So I understand I have a different perspective.
@@amandaslough125 Hm yeah - I already know what the story of ALBW is. I'm working my way through Oracle of Ages for the first time right now and loving it.
i hope they combine the best of both game styles to create a zelda that has real dungeons with interesting puzzles and a great story
That's the dream!
Honestly I really loved new Zelda except for weapon durability. Fuck weapon durability.
Hey man. Fuck weapon durability.
Been streaming through the old Zelda’s again because I plan to speedrun OOT at some point this year… Currently playing and finishing LTTP and man… these old games just hit so hard. I am so excited to play the oracle games, I never had them as a kid. I love classic Zelda games.
I played Seasons once when I was 11 and I remember asking my dad almost daily to drive me to the video store because they had a players guide and I could look up how to get through dungeons 😅Luckily I didn't have to do that this time through but I did have moments of pause where I wasn't completely sure how to solve a puzzle or move through the overworld next. I'm currently on my first ever playthrough of Ages and I am stuck in the second temple but loving it!
@@LittleBeanGreen that’s how I was recently with Zelda 2!! I got stuck sooooo much. I ended up having a viewer who’s very versed on the speedrun scene for Zelda 2 basically talk me through everything whenever I was hitting a wall. These old games just hit soooo well. They truly are masterpieces in their own.
@@Sol_daito From what I've seen of Zelda 2 you literally have to hit walls to move on.
If I wanted to play an open world game, I would play Minecraft.
There's nothing that BotW/ToTK can offer me exploring wise that I can't find better in old Minecraft. The thing is, I didn't like playing Minecraft.
Neither do I.
Am a mix of both
you are huh
I prefer the old Zelda, and I'm not even old. BotW came out when I was 14 years old and I was disappointed by it.
Why?
@@kashamiri Because I liked the classic Zelda gameplay of intricate themed dungeons, getting new items over the course of the game that gradually give you more abilities to access new areas and complete more puzzles (basically like Metroidvania), the bigger focus on the story (I know Zelda is not the most fleshed out game series storywise but the difference between BotW/TotK and the old games is night and day), and overall a more dense well crafted experience.
BotW was too much wandering around a barren empty wasteland filled with repetitive shrines and korok seeds, "dungeons" are very disappointing, I dislike the survival elements like breakable weapons and cooking, the story is completely just flashblacks and it lost the "Hero's Journy" aspect that previous Zelda games had, and overall it feels like a mile wide but an inch deep.
I think that's a testament to how good the game design in those games is.
@@LittleBeanGreen Yes I remember riht after finishing BotW I went back and played the Oracle games for the first time and enjoying them a thousand times more. The people saying "it's just nostalgia" are absolutely ridiculous.
Aonuma needs another nightmare so that he can make Majora's Mask 2.
Wasn't Koizumi heavily involved in that?
Koizumi was the reason Majora's Mask was as good as it was. What Aonuma needs is to step down from his leadership role over Zelda.
@@pitshoster401 OR bring someone in to deal with the narrative. Maybe not something crazy like Elden Ring and George RR Martin but someone who would oversee it all with care.
Thank you for the subtitles!
YOU GOT IT.
New dungeons are a STRAIGHT UP DOWNGRADE. Its not nostalgia, there are a million reasons why.
say it with ya chest
I’ve played every mainline Zelda from ALTTP onward. (I later played LOZ later on in my life). I don’t what so many people are upset about. But I guess I just love Zelda. The BOTW/TOTK formula isn’t perfect but it’s a work in progress and I’m sure the title after TOTK will find a better balance between old and new
I hope so too!
I was hoping TotK would be a best of both worlds rather than a Zonai-painted BotW, but if Aonuma's comments are anything to go by, he just sees everything in traditional Zelda as outdated. I don't really have high hopes that the next game will rectify the divide. With BotW and TotK's sales, they may not even see a need to heal the divide.
That's my fear - and honestly, even though I'd prefer a balanced game, I'll probably still buy the new one if it follows the previous two games' open-world design concept......
I appreciate so much of what new Zelda does, but will never understand why they refuse to give them good dungeons. Thats all they really need imo, everything else in BoTW and ToTK is just more fun (for me). This is the same team that made Skyward Sword, the game with arguably some of the best dungeons in the series. They HAVE the ability, they just won't.
Which makes it all the more perplexing
Honestly. The new ones lack character. They lack passion. I dont see this "new" appeal. I wanted to. While some things the new format can be objectively better at, the package comes off uninspired and thoughtless. I just dont care enough about them like I do the older titles. And Im playing some of the older titles for the first time right now and they just feel different. Sure you can get stuck. But Id rather get stuck than use ascend to circumvent the puzzles that dont matter anyhow because you can solve them in 50 different ways. Which makes them all worthless.
I'm playing Oracle of Ages for the first time right now and I've bashed my head against the wall at several points but I love it!
@@LittleBeanGreen haha it was actually the one Ive been trying to play through most recently. The Crescent island was confusing and I stopped playing for a couple of weeks halfway through so I forgot what Id done previously. That was difficult haha
@@gustafadolfsson4904 I took some time off and forgot the main gimmick of the game but I came back recently and think I've got it figured out - 2 more dungeons to go!
The thing that bugs me when debating this, is quite often newer fans will just shout your opinion down as "nostalgia" or "You just want another ocarina" without actually listening to what we want. We don't want pure linearity, nor do we want a beat for beat ocarina update. We just want the elements of what made the older Zelda's great better incorporated into the new ones.
I love the open ended exploration of the wild games, but I also miss having massive dungeons to conquer, i miss discovering unique items that genuinely change the gameplay going forward. I miss the sheer enemy variety, BotW and ToTK both have the lowest amount of unique enemy types (not including recolours or elemental types) of any 3D zelda game. It's hard to love exploring when you're most likely to run into the same enemies and get a bunch of resources that, lets be honest, you don't actually care about aside from an upgrade here n there. The dungeons don't even have to be compulsory, you could have a bunch there to explore with unique questlines and rewards that you can choose to partake in or not. Elden Ring does this, it gives you a massive world to explore but also these sprawling labrynths of castles and catacombs, much like a zelda dungeon. I wish we got more of this.
We don't need to return to old zelda to have some of those great elements brought back. And the fact that Aonuma seems to think us wanting them is just us being nostalgic kinda feels like he not only doesn't understand us, but also hates his old work, and I can't fathom why.
You make a good point about your own opinion and I’d say generally the fandom agrees with your position, even those who feel compelled to defend the new games. However, you have to acknowledge that a number of very loud classic Zelda fans legitimately do just want the nostalgia trip/ another Ocarina and they want everybody to know it. This may not be the case for you, but it definitely is for some and I think it’s understandable why fans of the newer style games feel defensive towards that because it’s a direction the series obviously shouldn’t and logistically won’t go, and it sort of belittles the Zelda team’s work and effort put into BOTW/TOTK. It often feels like some people have already forgotten what a necessary refresh they were. These games wouldn’t have happened the way they did if the old 3d Zelda style, great as it was, hadn’t run out of steam in a lot of ways.
I've never played it but from what I've heard/seen, I honestly think Elden Ring is the next evolution of Zelda.
As for those clamoring for OoT 2.0, a. play Twilight Princess and b. you're wrong haha
My perfect Zelda would have the massive overworld full of secrets and stuff and the health restoration by cooking like the current Wild Titles, with Shield durability (and ONLY shield durability) like Skyward Sword, as well as a more structured story with tight puzzles and items with various uses like the classic games.
The open world, much like Zelda 1, could have some spaces that cannot be accessed by the player till they beat a certain dungeon and get a certain item.
This seems to be a common sentiment among many fans of the series.
@@LittleBeanGreen I'm just basic like that.
To this day, even with the Wild era, my favourite style of Zelda is top-down 2D Zelda. Not just because that's how the series started, and where even one of the entries that constantly makes the "This is the best Zelda" candidacy, A Link to the Past, but also because I feel that the sort of deep dungeon and puzzles gameplay was best implemented in a 2D space. The 3D games have all been more one-on-one combat focused than anything else, which isn't a bad thing at all, but also makes them feel like almost completely different games compared to the 2D entries. The deepest puzzle you'll get in say Ocarina of Time, is entering a room and not really realizing there's an eye on the ceiling to shoot if you didn't look around, but it doesn't really get more complicated than that. You can argue the Water Temple, but it's mostly linear in how you have to raise and lower the water; a lot of players seem to forget the key under the block that raises up in the center area with the water level, which is why they get stuck a lot, haha.
But compare this to any of the 2D Zeldas, after Zelda 1 anyway, and their mechanics are much more involved and varied than just that. Link's Awakening is a perfect example actually, with an example in Level 7, The Eagle's Tower. You have to figure out how to carry that iron ball throughout the dungeon to wreak havoc on all the pillars, so you can destroy the upper floor; I don't think anything on that scale exists in any of the 3D games. Or how about Oracle of Seasons' Magnetic Gloves, with those rotating metal poles that you have to use to push Link over massive gaps, playing with the polarity? Or Oracle of Ages' Switch Hook, which definitely ramps up the puzzles on how to place Link and swappable objects to hold down switches. I haven't seen this kind of puzzle depth in any of the 3D Zelda games, which is why I feel Zelda shines best as a top-down, 2D experience. Even if it has faux 3D mechanics, like jumping with the Roc's Feather/Roc's Cape, or changing floors with stairs in A Link to the Past.
That water temple block is also on the floor behind the chest in the room that you get the longshot if I remember correctly...so not only is it forgotten, it's most often overlooked.
I always knew I liked the 2D games, but after recently finishing Seasons again and starting Ages for the first time, I didn't realize HOW great they are. And I love have confined their worlds are but their dungeons are intricate and the item mechanics are really clever.
@@LittleBeanGreen You know, it's kind of funny, I actually feel the same way about Pokemon. The best games in the series are still the older, 2D ones, before Gen 6. The reason why I feel that way is because they're the only ones, barring remakes, that still have the deeper level design that we're just talking about. Ever since the main series officially went 3D in Gen 6, the level design has lost nearly all of its metroidvania style elements that were present in the 2D games; there are no more field usage HM moves (Strength, Surf, etc.), which means there's also no reason to return to a previous area, since there are no new side paths and optional dungeons to discover like before. I don't know why such bland, hallway-like and empty level design is what's popular currently. It was even worse in Sword and Shield, where the only two caves in the game are both single floor and also hallways.
I prefer old. My favorite games in the series are LTTP, LA, (especially) OOT , MM and the Oracles (more so Ages but Seasons also rules. I love the rest too but those ones are all perfection. I like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess a lot but they also can't help but feel like imitations of Ocarina wthout quite measuring up. I actually give Skyward Sword a lot more credit than a lot of the fanbase seems to for being far more willing to take risks. It's not that the modern ones are bad by any means, I think Link Between Worlds is phenomenal for example. I like Breath a lot and Tears improved on it in everyway too but I don't want them to be the only style moving forward. To be fair though, even with their overwhelming success I don't actually think that they will be. Give me classic dungeons and music please.
Agreed - I'm telling you, we want a balance of the old and new.
Definitely. I thought that Tears' dungeons were definitely better than Breath's but both games had bottom five dungeons over all (I think Breath, with the exception of Hyrule Castle had the weakest ones in the series). Having a huge explorable area with detailed physics is cool as hell but I want items that change how I can interact as well as the Sheikah Slate type stuff. Exploring in Breath/Tears rules but it would be even better with a Hookshot or Roc's Cape or Ocarina-style Tunics or any number of other options. It's very neat to be able to go anywhere practically from the word go but I'm completely in favor of the world opening gates for me the more I explore.
@@swampert564 I think the "unlocking of gates" as it were is part of the main feeling of progression or powering up.
Exactly and also having the game world open for you slowly helps the experience to feel like what you are doing actually matters to the world. I see it a lot in modern games where somehow people have become convinced that having any kind of structure is to be avoided. There's certainly the other side to that idea, where too much structure is also a negative but I would certainly err on the side of more vs less. Hell even Super Metroid, a game and series that is famous for letting the player do things unguided is still discreetly guiding the the player down a relatively constrained path. I think the illusion of freedom in games is more important to creating a memorable experience than actually complete freedom. I look to Ocarina, a game that I and many people consider to be the pinnacle of game design. Sure there's a specific order to doing the adult dungeons but it's still pretty loose. For exampel the game doesn't tell you to go to Ice Cavern until you beat the Forest and Fire Temples but I nearly always do it as one of the first things after becoming Adult Link. I also like to do the Fire Temple before I even set foot in the Forest Temple just because I can. I absolutely love this series, it's my favorite game series by far and in general my favorite pieces of media over all. My wife is also a pretty much rabid fan, we named our daughter after the princess, these games will always have my heart but there are still things that I hope for moving forward.
@@swampert564 Yeah I think being guided when you don't know you're being guided is great. Perhaps there's a way to do that where whatever path you choose leads to an objective (dungeon) that you can complete without it being as obvious as literally putting dots on a map.
I fell in love with the old zelda games that i named my daughter after them. There is a reason there is many open world games but only one series created "Zelda Likes"
Nice :)
Zelda hasnt been the same sense the switch stuff came out. I wish Nintendo would go back to being story driven with multiple large dungeons with item rewards in them and fun ending boss's. The open world can work within classic Zelda formula it will just take some light modifications to get right.
Wholeheartedly agree.
Most of what you described when you talked about the classic Zeldas is, in fact, nostalgia. You felt excitement for the boss door in the Forest Temple bc you knew what was behind it and you straight up said Seasons pays homage to (even) older titles, thus scratching that nostalgia itch. I don't think the Wild era games are perfect by any means, but the rose tinted glasses most fans continually look at linear Zelda through have got to come off at some point.
I also said I prefer that certain out of style elements cannot be so easily cheesed, but I did say they were out of style. Giddiness at the locked boss door could be nostalgia, it could also very well be that I unwove a dungeon for the first time in forever and I was eagerly anticipating its climax. And I made mention that those old games have parts where you have to hit your head against a wall before you can move on. Is disliking that nostalgia?
The Oracle games pay homage to the old games through characters and items - but I also said they stamp an identity of their own. The level design in them is great, regardless of time period. Is that nostalgia?
Some may remember those games fondly - what I was getting at is that there are still portions of those games that work because they're good, not because I liked them when I was 12.
I think if;
- the Zelda team focused on making temples and dungeons with element theme in mind
- the map size was half of breath of the wild yet all new and multi climatic across the landscape
- the traditional weapons were only accessible through the dungeon
- the world had a blacksmith
- the player could still obtain other weapons all over the place but they all had pros and cons
- the storyline was in your face and emphasized 1/3 less then the cutscenes amount in ocarina of time
- the towns and settlements were about 10 different places all featuring their own ways of life
- link could have more influential side quests which change the town
- a new villain introduced like a bad wizard who hates ganon or outcasted shiekah or some new tribe who simply live in the lands past Hyrule
- link could have a musical instrument to alter a few things
- link could conjure spells and use medallions that literally give him buffs like link to the past
- there was more enemy variety
- link had many more mini games to do
- link could literally fish no bomb fishing
- there were no compendium although there was a booklet at a Hyrule library which featured all the information and new players could read it.
- deku nuts could stun foes and eventually link could learn the teleport trick with a deku nut like shiek OoT.
- the art style was somewhat ocarina of Time blended with Twilight princess
- there could be a dark world or a time leap
Am I just sounding like I'm description a improved OoT... Oh no ..
Oh I mean impa * impa uses a flash in OoT when she tells link to flvisit death mountain .. I always thought it was a deku nut with hacks.
A lot of these are good - I'm going to work up a series of videos with a story line and gameplay for what I'd like the next Zelda to be....and there's a lot of that stuff in here.
I feel ya - just thought it was some Sheikah item.
@@LittleBeanGreen yeah awesome. Yeah probably a shiekah item
Kinda funny how Aonuma doesn't want old school limitations in Zelda games considering that Majora's Mask does include those limitations and turned out to be a masterpiece
Most every Zelda game contains those restrictions and they're all relatively great.
I think Aonuma was right about what he said. There a very clear "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality right now and people are glorifying the old games as if they have no flaws.
The gameplay of Zelda games has always been made of 3 aspects. Item-based exploration, puzzles and combat. From Aonuma’s perspective, it’s quite reasonable to think the new games are better. The worlds are bigger, more detailed, have more stuff to find and a lot more ways to interact with it. Puzzles are based on incredibly versatile and complex mechanics that allow them to be flexible enough to be tackled in many different ways. And while some may find issue with your ability to cheese puzzles, this also works the other way around. You can easily attempt a more challenging solution by doing challenge runs (TotK without the paraglider is pretty insane for example). Combat has also received a massive upgrade due to Link‘s moveset, better enemy AI, a higher enemy threat level, a complex weapon system etc.
Items are also significantly better in the new games, not just because there are a lot more of them in them, but these items are also significantly more complex and versatile, instead of being glorified keys that become rather useless outside of their dungeons.
The core gameplay is significantly better in the new games and that’s partially due to the multiplicative design in them. And for that design to properly work, you kinda need to be less restrictive and allow for a bit of wiggle room…otherwise you end with something like Wind Waker, which features an open ocean that heavily clashes with a linear dungeon order and item formula that makes early exploration unrewarding and a waste of time.
I could see how that may be - but as I said in the video, there are great things in the new games and there are great things in the old games and I think they can complement each other in the next title. The old games certainly have flaws (as do the new ones) and anyone saying different is selling you something.
Ur content quality is Super Good!!✨✨
Thank you!
Without question, yes. Everything up to 4 swords adventure was amazing. I personally didn't like TP much but enjoyed it. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask will always be the best to me, and I really like both NES Zelda's, the Gameboy games.
The oracles games are awesome
Just having the classic games like oot, the oracle games and the original spoken about puts a smile on my face all the time.
Also I have been making the argument that the original game is not quite as "anti-linear" as many classic naysayers would have you believe. So glad you brought that up, it still has that beloved item progression structure that served as the progenitor to metroidvanias and classic zelda games.
I think as many in the comments have said and you as well did, the answer lies in taking that metroidvania aspect which serves as the true core to what made Zelda great and someone getting it to do the fusion dance with botw/totk's overworld design. A brief example being the overworld being fully explorable but certain parts of it are locked off until you get specific items or abilities. These locked off parts housing dense puzzle box dungeons that involve the items needed to reach it's area, housing more items and abilities when you conquer them. The initial items or abilities needed to reach the early unreachable areas themselves being found in dungeons hidden within this sprawling overworld that can be overcome with only things available at the start of the game.
Sounds great to me!
Yeah, it's really difficult to know where I want the series to go from here, because I love most of the directions the mainlines have taken. I guess my answer is that I hope the developers keep switching it up and keep the innovation in gameplay coming. I even love a really well executed gimmick. I don't want the Zelda team to feel like they have to keep the era of the wilds gameplay at the expense of tradition and vice versa.
Unfortunately I think they do.
I miss using a hookshot, double clawshot or the Zora's mask. The lack of cool items you can find in dungeons and then use in the world to continue exploring is why I like the old Zelda games more. I don't think many people are against the open world and storyline that isn't fully linear, but against the new style of weapons having durability, and not really having anything special to look forward to while progressing.
To me it makes exploring lame because the rewards are hardly ever good.
@@LittleBeanGreen exactly. The reward will often be some underpowered weapon or some piece of clothing that I'll never wear.
@@hasnieking which to me really disincentivizes exploring.
I honestly prefer all of Zelda. The old and the new. I enjoy playing all of them no matter how different they are
have at it!
Stapling existing games to a 200-hour open-world experience is not synonymous with making them better
Balance the good in each is not synonymous with stapling them together.
I grew up with Oot, MM WW TP… and while I fully admit these got many things done a lot better such as story,dungeons, music and I could go on and on explaining why they’re better games… I’m still more interested in this new direction because if Zelda team strikes a better balance between the 2 styles it would make it the ultimate Zelda game.
I always thought wind waker was almost that balance between open and linearity but exploration in WW is not that great considering the empty sea however it shows you can have some linearity within an open world.
You look at a lot of comments in this section and you'll see a lot of people feel that the balance between the old and new is the way to go.
i hope that for the next ones they have both, they could still have an open world and many self contained problems and obstecles from the new games yet also have grand dungeons and a slihtly more linear story from the older games. atleast for me that would be the best of both worlds!!
That seems to be what many people are after.
@@LittleBeanGreen i am shoked!! i have rarely gotten comments from the youtuber who made the video!! let alone in the first 7 hours after making the comment!!
hmm…. perhaps i shall subscribe for that!! perhaps!!
Totk and botw brought a new vision to Zelda.but it’s not Zelda,Zelda isn’t a free roam complex mechanics.like what makes zelda zelda is that it’s a small great world with amazing dungeons with some amazing side quests this is why i prefer majoras mask>ocarina of time >windwaker>twilight princess>>>totk>botw.with those games I listed above botw and totk for the reason that it’s has a small/simple world with a great story and not so complex mechanics.I really hope we return to the old tradition of zelda (even if we don’t I’ll still play any Zelda game that comes out lol)
I still think they can combine them.
Honestly, I think more restriction in the overworld will make the story and the exploration better. The ability to climb is fun but inherently has to force the developers to not care where you've come from or where you want to be (physically and in the plot). While some open ended solutions in the world can be great (as in A Link Between Worlds), some type of linearity or structure needs to be maintained. I am also of the opinion that plot requires restriction to be engaging. Doing things in any order forces great compromise. While physics can be a fun gimmick and be better involved in better and more engaging puzzles in future titles the ability to make contraptions take away from the tone of the game. Not being able to make use of weapons you like because they're worthless and of more value in your inventory than used its not really fun to engage in the combat (even if rewards were better), which is a major issue in Tears and Breath. When it comes to dungeons just do better Nintendo. Make use of what you learned in previous titles and figure out some new ideas (that don't make the places worthless or uninspiring to traverse nor solve. NPCs can be improved on. Side quests too. Majoras mask did this great over 20 years ago. Make use of music to evoke feelings when you're out in the overworld. A handful of sparse piano notes leaves me in apathy at best. Its supposed to be an adventure. While I recognize more involved music could get old when you spend soo much time with it just make longer scores or something less intrusive.
As yall may tell Im a bit frustrated and I can go on but for my own sanity ill stop there. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
I'm working on a concept for the "next Zelda game" that I'm hoping to make a series of videos on - maybe that will entice you ;)
And the gods have passed down the holy fruit to earth and a green bean video has released. Thanks for making my day go from 10% to 10000000%
thanks for knowing a green bean is a fruit.
And i also know that a gummy bear is a vegetable
@@SebastianWasserberg-dk3bs There's no getting anything past you.
@@LittleBeanGreen No, there isn't 😅
Glad you have a solid good take on this. I love the new games, but I still really like every Zelda I've played. The only issue I have is when the old heads talk shit on the new games with shit like "The new games are missing something that makes it Zelda," "It's so lifeless," and other such stuff saying they're bad. Like, it's fine if you don't like it, but to say that the franchise is dead or ruined and the games are bad feels like such a nostalgia-drunk take.
To be fair, a lot of the young bucks talk that same shit about the old games - it's just dogs barking at each other over a fence.
I'd just like to see them try and integrate the old and new styles, once, as an experiment, see what happens.
@@LittleBeanGreen
That's fair cause, they're both wrong. The old games aren't out of date, they were iconic when they came out and they're still iconic now. The new games are expansive and open and give you a wide way to traverse however you want. I remember when I first tried Minish Cap on the WiiU several years ago, I was initially underwhelmed cause "the graphics were old." Then I ACTUALLY started playing and it and I was like, "Wow, I was wrong AND dumb, this plays great and honestly looks great too."
And on them integrating both styles of gameplay? Dude, that would be the shit.
Open, wide world. With several dungeon with dedicated items as per previous games. A linear story that is SET UP to be followed, but CAN be tackled in any order. Certain puzzles and side quest IN that open world that have a couple different ways to be solved, some with dungeon items, some with not.
You were 100% right, I hope the answer is "The next one."
@@Dinomatrix21 Well said!
While the two latest games were not bad, if you're not speed-running they have no replay value. I only had the curiosity once, now I know what to expect if not exactly what to find where. The mechanics are built around sandboxes but are somehow squished in an adventure game. So while you would like to experiment with the mechanics the limited resources make you stick to known working strategies. For example the zonai devices: While I would have like to build crazy machines, and have fun with the mechanics, the thought of having to grind the underground for resources made me just build basic stuff or avoid them altogether.
Also the story was so disconnected from the game-play that to re-experience it I'd much more likely watch a youtube video with the cut scenes.
It also doesn't help that you have one save file - I didn't interact with the building/crafting mechanics any more than I had to, many because glitchy, shitty ARK ruined that for me ha
To me, "old zelda" or "classic zelda" still means the open world nonlinear style original. The newer linear stuff was cool, but I'm really glad the series finally returned to the classic nonlinear style. I had been hoping for that for so long, having complained about the new zelda style for so long before BotW.
The original was definitely more dungeon heavy and you could do some out of order, but certainly not all of them, and the game seems to be designed so that you do them in order. It's also possible to do dungeons out of order in OoT. I would maybe consider the first Zelda game open-overworld....kind of, if you don't have the candle, or raft, or know how to make it through the lost woods, those things are all like soft locks.
@@LittleBeanGreen You can go straight to level 8 if you buy a candle. There are some restrictions early on, but that's normal for an open world game. You don't always get the whole world at once.
@@bfish89ryuhayabusa Do you get dominated if you go straight to level 8?
@@LittleBeanGreen yeah, unless you're really good. But you have the option to do it. You can do probably 5 of the dungeons in whatever order, and you can straight up skip some pretty major items. It's a sandbox for the player to decide what they want to do.
@@bfish89ryuhayabusa maybe I don't know what 'open world' or 'sandbox' really means but I don't feel like the original Zelda is that...I've have to do some research.
Make more games like Twilight Princess
I dig it.
@@LittleBeanGreen Yeah, it just checks pretty much all the boxes for an amazing Zelda game to me. A large open world filled with all kinds of stuff to explore, fun characters, surprisingly well done character animations for the time (I replayed it recently and holy hell, especially Midnas animations during cutscenes were really detailed), exciting and creative dungeons and items, an endearing antagonist and of course the music
It was. There's some good stuff in open world Zelda, but too many staples to the series are gone. Some sort of merger would be neat.
That seems to be the general consensus.
Games need restrictions. Otherwise they are by definition not games.
Not only are the new games the worst in the series by a wide margin, they are two of the worst games Nintendo has ever published. If any other developer tried releasing games of that poor quality they would be the laughing stock of the industry.
The problem is that those two recent games, by modern gaming standards, are technical achievements, which function as intended, and with zero glitching/bugs. This sets them leagues and bounds above any other AAA game in presentation alone.
I still maintain that they take ultrahand, the sandbox, and the crafting and make it into it's own franchise.
@@LittleBeanGreen And the big budget Disney blockbusters from the past decade tend to be incredibly polished and fully functional movies, that doesn’t change the fact that they’re soulless and artistically bankrupt products that only exist to rake in the cash. I’d much rather replay a game like Fallout New Vegas than either of the open world Zelda’s because it’s systems are inherently better designed in spite of its bugginess.
@@theplinko9840 But when all movies of the past decade are soulless and artistically bankrupt products, any movie goer would generally prefer a polished and fully functional movie. My point is that studios HAVE put out games worse than this and they are a laughing stock and the only reason Zelda isn't is because it functions.
Its a damn shame to know the bar has been set that low over the years. Remember quality entertainment from gaming, movies, and shows? I member! 😂🥲🥺😔
I wanna say old Zelda is better overall. Think about it this way, old Zelda's classic 3D formula carried the franchise for a solid 15 years before it finally began to feel stale by the time Skyward Sword came out. We're two games (or 6 years) into Breath of the Wild's formula and it's already beginning to show that open-world fatigue. Granted, I could be attributing this to Tears looking and feeling like a glorified expansion pack to BOTW--- maybe if Tears dropped players into a brand new map with slightly different artstyle (or tone) it could've solidified the success of BOTW's reboot ambitions (other than in terms of sales). Every Zelda game up until Tears felt like it was built from the ground up with a unique artstyle and tone in mind. Tears is just BOTW2. It's a literal sequel but they gave it its own name. I understand that it's a very polished game with creative mechanics, but something about it doesn't do it for me.
Same - I think if they put a third game out there in a completely different world, we may have something worthwhile to talk about.
I mean ppl complained when skyward sword had the most story but also had to be linear bc of it ( I thought it was a solid title), then comes botw and totk, absolute freedom in how you traversed caves, depths, sky islands, surface, etc. Trying to combine that level of freedom with a story focused game is probably impossible without implementing a road block for the player, kinda like aLBW with their dungeons, you can't enter them without showing proof you had the item. Sure recent titles had smaller temeples/dungeons but are ppl forgetting how vast the other parts are? When you think zelda ocarina of time, you don't think of hyrule field or even gerudo valley, your first thoughts are usually the temples. Anyways as a zelda fan since the 90s it's just good appreciate what nintendo tries to do to innovate and self improve. I'm on board with whatever they attempt next with zelda.
I think the empty Hyrule Field and Gerudo Valley were largely limits of the N64 - imagine the detail of the Era of the Wild titles in the overworld with the theming and puzzles of the OoT dungeons...I think that's what most of us would like to see.
People dogged on Skyward Sword *a lot* when it came out and a lot of people still think it's the weak link in the series. BoTW more or less was a reaction to the critical hounding SS got. I don't think you're going to see Nintendo mix up the formula again unless they make a game that gets SS-levels of disappointment in its reception. Zelda's dev team especially tends to be 'stick with what's working' over 'revolutionize for no reason'.
In other words, I think it's hopeless. If Nintendo still made portable handhelds I'd say they might try to do something with a side studio for the handheld market, but that's no more either. It's gonna be BoTW-styled mainline games and 2D retro games ala LANS for a long time, I'm afraid.
@@slizzysluzzer We'll see....I sure hope not.
That's because it went too far in the other direction. You can have a story and also have exploration, too.
@@cortster12 Tell that to Nintendo 😅
My favourite by far is Majora's, and though it does lean heavily on the older style, it's also its own thing. That's the thing, innovation is key, I am glad they did BotW, but TotK was a mistake
I love MM too - that's what Tears should've been something connected to the previous but in essence its own thing. Probably easier said than done when you reuse the world map.
What I would love to see the next game to be, is a mix of new and old zelda. The dungeon need to be more linear and the overworld need to stay open (like ALBW). The story should be presented ONLY before and after a temple. No more memory please. Also, maybe add secret temple. 152 shrines is way too much, espacialy when 70 of them are blessing. Or keep the blessing with shrine and make all the puzzle one a real dungeon. Every 10 shrine they remove could be a small temple insted. I think this could be very nice. I cant wait for what they have next, but for now, we got to let them cook.
I think this is what most people are asking for - not a return to the old ways, but a blending of the new and old.
Interesting. I've played no video games since the 90s (dabbled with the OG NES and Gameboy; but favorite game was the OG Sim City, Sid Meier's Civilization and Sid Meier's Pirates. Yes I apparently like open world games)
I heard BOTW was really good so I decided make it my first video game in 30 years. Let's just say I got hooked; 300+ hours and am almost at the end now (yes taking my sweet time; sometimes I just enjoy aimlessly riding around and bashing a monster or three). Anyway, after playing BOTW almost the entire plane flight to Asia and back in the past two weeks (getting through the 1st and 2nd sword trial, and then doing the four blights one after the other - with full upgraded armor and commensurate weapons they were beaten easily in the first try....), I was BOTW'd out - and intrigued by the old school Zeldas.
I chose to try the remastered Links Awakening (I never played the gameboy version), and unfortunately it's not working out so well for me. I've paused for now at the cards monster in the first dungeon - it seems so limited. And I don't like some of the puzzles. (I do like the graphics/music, and the larger variety of monsters) Feeling bored, I dropped it, and found trying to grind Lynels again (even with fully upgraded Guardian armor and ++ Guardian weapons if I screw up I get clobbered....) and getting my 19th Shrine in the Hebra area more enjoyable for whatever reason. (and Hebra is probably the worst area - rather empty; probably the best example of some of the BOTW criticisms)
I'll finish LA, and am committed to doing ALLTP, OoT, and MM over the next year or so before going to TOTK..... but hopefully one of those three will entice me better.....
That said, based on what I've heard, I'm also in the camp of "the next Zelda should sync BOTW and the traditional Zelda formula". And for that matter, IMO BOTW could have been better if they had maybe 2-3x the variety of monsters, and filled the space with more stuff. (to include a few more villages scattered around)
Good take - I find the shrines to be tedious and annoying instead of interesting.
Sure, every open world game's better with more content. The problem is, you're asking a lot by that point. That's how you get R* style crunch where people are working 12 hours a day with a lot of that being unpaid overtime to get the latest masterpiece out at launch. Content requires man hours, and open world games already take long dev cycles just to make in the first place, especially nowadays with open worlds being absolutely massive and the demand for content being sky-high (that's why the aforementioned R* released a half dozen titles for the PS2 back when and now takes eight year long stretches between any releases at all in the present).
I think they should flip the script and find new ground again like they did with Breath of the Wild and make something new. Maybe this time an incredible side-scroller Metroidvania that would give Metroid Dread a run for its money. A proper Zelda 2: Adventure of Link game.
I've only played through maybe the first dungeon in that game but seeing some of the 'walk through walls' and 'fall through floors' mechanics of that game.....they should definitely either a. remake that game or b. do a ALttP/ALBW thing and make a sequel.
I want zelda to still go for the sandbox style but make the enviroments feel more alive and fun to explore with more diverse visuals and not just copy n pasting.
We know that progression in zelda games can be controversial but the best zelda game that handled this the best for the standard gamer (aka not using glitches to sequence break)
is Zelda A Link Between Worlds, in that game the item's rental feature lets you tackle objectives and dungeons in any order you want aslong as you don't get a game over.
This is easier said than done but for modern sandbox zelda games I would like for Nintendo to do a similar style like this. That way we can still have a massive lovely sandbox game but with more stuff to interact and see. without it feeling like a boring dull chore.
I still love Link to the Past, Majora's Mask n Wind Waker from my childhood, we all know that Nintendo will still keep on making retro style zelda games either with remakes or new entries.
I was able to manage playing breath of the wild and still love it in 2024 tho it's a massive game, but by my standards it wasn't so bloated to the point it became boring and dull like tears of the kingdom.
My expectations with tears of the kingdom was so high like alot of fans that it ended up disappointing me and alot of people to, with how mid af the game is and that stupid undeserved high price point.
It also doesn't help that Eji Aonuma has been very ignorant and unprofessional with the fanbase treating the series's legacy as if it's complete shit and should be forgotten about.
I just went to the standard finish for Tears of the Kingdom, it's a good game but it feels so painfully mid af after such a long wait, also the ignorant behaviour from Eji has left a sour taste in my mouth for the future of the series that last year I just decided to stop thinking about zelda and think more about the indie games like Pizza Tower n Bombrush Cyberfunk and even dusting off my backlog and I feel alot better doing this rather than thinking about tears of the kingdom or holding my "Breath" (Bah dum tish) for a good future of the zelda games.
If you really love Tears of the Kingdom then that's good for you but playing sandbox games can be very draining and TotK is where I just feel that Zelda is no longer for me and I even love Breath of the wild but that game has it's own reasons for why I love it with one of the reasons is that it was Nintendo's first Sandbox game and it's from 2017 on handheld device so alot of things I can forgive especially since alot of companies even nintendo were still figuring out smart ways to cram in as much as possible.
Take care everyone and sorry for this long silly post, this isn't a grumpy vent but my thoughts on modern zelda and that it's okay to just admit that this series might not be for you anymore and I'm ok with just moving on.
I wish you all the best everyone
Looks like I'm going to have to play A Link Between Worlds
@@LittleBeanGreen You'll most likely like it man, at first I thought it was pretty stupid back when first played it around 2013 or something but I gave it another shot in 2017 and I wanted to punch 2013 me in the face for talking smack on it.
Players should have the choice to tackle any objective in any way they want but there does need to be some restrictions to get through specific events of a game to make it feel more rewarding and not just a massive checklist.
@@xRocketzFighterx Interesting - I'll have to see how I can get my hands on it.
I loved BOTW but it was extremely lacking in way the games that I love, mainly OOT and TP had in spades.
I agree it needed a change but at the same time the fact is it has no hero’s journey or real lore. Even just real continuity like the old games had leaves so so so much to be desired.
I think the old needs to be blended with the new. I don’t think going one way or the other is the answer.
I think you're absolutely right.
Honestly, The Weapon Breaking Mechanic in BOTW and TOTK was what I hated most about those games. Fortunely I had TOTK Day 1 and was able to Transfer the MSGnotfound from the Prologue into the Main Game and I found I enjoy TOTK A LOT more than BOTW because of it.
MSGnotfound?
@@LittleBeanGreenThe Prologue Master Sword that you can transfer into the Main Game through a Glitch in earlier versions of the Game. It is called the MSGnotfound in it's description.
@@Gamer1288 ah
@@Gamer1288 ah.
I can't say which zelda is better for they're both too different, and that's exactly the problem. You might as well make them a separate ip and franchise entirely, and that's where the split comes in. Old zelda was tightly dense with interesting areas, new items, enemy variety and a sense of discovery that lasted start to finish. New Zelda wears out its welcome as in 20-30 hours you see the majority of what the things are before they get stale, but the games have far grander worlds and much better and creative tools to work with, and is much easier to pick up, play and replay.
That's why I think they could balance the two in whatever comes next.
“old Zelda” is anything before Wind Waker. And honestly, we can truly say the Miyamoto era doesn’t include Majora’s Mask/Four Sword.
We are still in Aonuma’s era of Zelda, and the Open Air era is a nuance.
That all being said, I hope to see a Miyamoto game one day. It may be in the form of the movie, but I love the new games while simultaneously missing the Miyamoto era
I would basically include anything up to Skyward Sword as 'old zelda' - only because most everything from ALttp - SS built on that traditional formula.
Honestly breath and tears don’t even make my top 10 Zelda games. So yeah old Zelda was better. Matter of fact since I’ve first remember hearing Aunoma harp on about changing things (post twilight Princess) I think only link between worlds has cracked my top ten.
(1. Link to the past
2. Ocarina of Time)
(3. Link’s awakening
4. Majora’s Mask
5. Seasons
6. Ages)
(7. Twilight Princess
8. Link between Worlds
9. Minish Cap
10. Wind Waker)
() are more or less tiers
fair enough - I think the new games have some merit that, if combined with some of the older elements, would elevate the series even more.
Both old and new are great in their own ways.
Truly - now make a game with the best of both.
I can't say old is objectively better, but I can say I massively prefer the release frequency. Like half of the Zelda franchise released between 1998-2005, meanwhile in the modern day, that same span of time only held BotW and it's sequel (well plus a couple spinoffs). As someone who doesn't care too much for this new style of Zelda, it's been 13 years (more than half my life) since the last traditional 3D Zelda and a decade since the last 2D. If the next game takes another 5-6 years to make, I will have spend the majority of my life waiting for a title that resonates with me again. I don't think old or new is definitely better, or 3D vs 2D, I just want more more often if possible. Not rushed, just not droughts
This is a great point - probably one that can be better realized if they shrink the worlds juuuuuust a little bit.
Old music was better
Undeniably.
Here is my take on this:
Link to the Past, Ocarina, and Majora are examples of the right way to make a linear Zelda. You will find one part of the map that you can’t access, and once you find a dungeon item you can go back to it. This design philosophy works inside of the dungeons as well.
Skyward Sword is not how to make a linear Zelda game. There is no exploration, instead it’s a bunch of linear segments that lead up to a dungeon. The dungeons in that game are great, but the overall experience is too limited.
Breath of the Wild is how to make a great open world game. The Great Platesu is a microcosm of how the rest of the world works. Every environment, every shrine, and every major dungeon was curated to incorporate all of the abilities you get at the start of the game. Hyrule Castle is the best open world Zelda dungeon by far.
Tears of the Kingdom doubles down on the freedom aspect, and it’s a worse open world game and a worse Zelda game because of that decision. The Great Sky Island fails at being a microcosm of the rest of the game, because there is no environmental puzzle solving that isn’t in the sky. The game is too open to completely break, which makes the level design garbage.
For a future Zelda game, I would like to see the world design of A Link to the Past be expanded upon to a larger open world. This world design would be pretty similar to Elden Ring. A Link to the Past had sets of dungeons to complete, meaning you had to complete one set to move onto the next one. Each dungeon in this future blend between open world and linear Zelda could utilize the abilities found at the start of the game, and you unlock a new ability/item in the dungeon. If we had a segmented open world with dungeons as well designed as the one found in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword then that could be the best Zelda game ever made.
Love this - and boy do I have a series of videos in the pipeline that would be right up your alley...
Both are good in their own ways. They just need to combine the old gameplay with the new.
Keep the open world but give us a good solid Story and Traditional puzzle dungeons . And heart pieces. Away with the Mini shrines.
That seems to be a favorited opinion - certainly one I share.
@@LittleBeanGreen It would make sense to take zelda In that direction after all.
Short word, yes. Also, it should be called ADVENTURE OF LINK.
Zelda 2?
@@LittleBeanGreen Zelda 2 should have been called.
Adventure of Link 2- The Sleeping princess.
@@youareacoward8459 woulda coulda shoulda
Zelda's always been Open World, come on now.
It's been more top-down metroidvania than open world
@@LittleBeanGreenYou're splitting hairs.
OG Zelda is a near-perfect game and I will die on this hill.
Hm I replyed to you but I think TH-cam didn't like it......anyway you said you'll die on that hill and I merely mentioned that some others may have heavy involvement in that death ha.
I like both
Both have their fun And their negatives
fair enough.
I played Ocarina of time for the first time at 21 years old. No nostalgia, among the greatest games ever made
I played it recently again and thought it was great.
Open world with old school dungeons
that's the move we'd like to see!
The older Zelda has better stories but the modern Zelda has better gameplay.
Put 'em together.
If we don't get a new Zelda by 2027 then wouldn't we be stuck in the Botw setting for a decade or more? Like fuck that
I think in the next game we'll be out of that Hyrule.
I played since the first Zelda came out.
All Zelda is good Zelda.
I agree - but some of it is better.
The thor part had me crying bro😂
It fits!
this video is 5 minutes long and tricked me into thinking i was watching a 40 minute video essay
you're welcome and/or i'm sorry?
@@LittleBeanGreen its a compliment :3 i think you'd be able to carry longer videos very well
@@dynastylobster8957 Maybe in the future....these things take me a lot of time ha
@LittleBeanGreen relating to the video, i think the main issue boils down to variety. i think both styles of Zelda should exist. but companies tend to like "going in a new direction" quite a bit, so instead of adding variety, it kinda just replaces one thing with the other. which, on it's own isn't an issue, but when more and more companies are trying to be the same as eachother, it does get a little fatiguing. granted, the point i just made was a little off topic.
Fun fact: it's not objective, it depends on play style and personal tastes and every zelda game has stuff that is annoying or that isn't as much fun as you hoped. My favorite is wind waker and totk, (though I like oot and tp and alttp) for different reasons and both have stuff i wish was better, though I love totk for what it is and honestly wouldn't change it. And most people can (and do) like both kinds of games. But most Fandoms, the gaming community in general, and even the internet as a whole always likes to pit things against each other or place them in a hierarchy, often bc its amusing to argue dumb stuff or it generates views. I say: Like what you like, don't like what you don't. And as for the future of the franchise, so, so, so, so many people literally have said they want a detailed overwored but restricted, t traditional linear dungeons. And everything suggests Nintendo isn't gonna do just another botw/totk for their next game, if only bc of backlash. They made BOTW the way it is bc of backlash about SS being too linear and having annoying mechanics, despite it having a great story and tying into lore neatly. They will likely do the same. I think people expected totk to be that, but the had already been developing it before botw was released and were doing it the way they did bc they were recycling the sane engine, world and assets. Be glad they did an open world botw imitation for its direct sequal and not for some highly anticipated future game on a new console or something. Plus, botw totk has an amazing visual aesthetic that past games can't match. Plus, I think may of the complaints about the way they went about open world (i.e. copy paste style puzzles, bad mechanics on the sages, limited enemy types, etc) is bc of console limitations, bc the switch is barely strong enough to handle totk's mechanics. With a better console they might be able to add more variety in monster design, puzzle design, dungeon design, create a world designed around mechanics that doesn't need handicaps and cool downs, etc. That is, if fans let them even do open world in the future
You know - when you can seamlessly travel from sky to ground to depths, and can recall an item that falls anywhere between at any time, I don't believe that having less enemy variety is actually a limit of the hardware. Any puzzles that happen in the shrines loaded in and self-contained, so even that I don't buy. And certainly having sages follow you around and you have to run up to them and push A to get them to do anything is not a limitation, just a bad design choice.
You're right, it's not objective - I said there are great things in the old games and great things in the new games, and what I would like to see is that they blend the good with the good, instead of shirking the good things but old things simply because they're old.
...I do love the art style. It seems like they've been building to it every since WW.
@@LittleBeanGreen I assumed it was adding the mechanics that limited other things. But i guess what type saying is get rid of those, but that's my favorite aspect. The defining feature of the game. But I get the point of what youre saying and I don't know much about computer programming. And I'm glad that you still see merit in both types of games, but honestly I didn't get that message from a casual viewing And honestly I have never thought the developers were interested in the temple and sage-oriented stuff. They seem to just not care and only add it to appease fans. They've always seemed to put all their time and energy into the overworld.l in both games. I think the shrines puzzles often beat most temple puzzles in past games, and a lynel fight is harder for a new player than most of the blights or temple bosses. But I think i would love totk still even if it had zero temples or sages
@@friend_trilobot I find the shrines to be more tedious than interesting.
It's all well and good to say like what you like, but big game companies with big pocket books have to make decisions, and those decisions ultimately have to involve displeasing some branch of their fanbase in favor of another branch. So you can 'like what you like' and then never get decent content revolving around what you like for literal decades.
I like Spyro. You know what there hasn't been since 1999? A good Spyro game revolving around its classic formula. The entirety of the *Iraq War* came and went without seeing a good Spyro game - or even anything that *tried* to capture its formula. The remakes in 2018 were unironically the brightest beacon of hope, and they, too, came and went without seeing a proper sequel to one of my favorite franchises of all time. There were a couple fan projects, and they've pretty much died. Sure, you can learn to program and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and 'be the change' and all that, but you're ultimately just one person and there's only so much you can do.
So, like what you like - but the world oftentimes doesn't like what you like, and when it decides group B is more favorable than group A, there's gonna be fighting and drama and controversy. It's just the way societies go.
Of course, you can choose to like everything - but sometimes, people have preferences, and it's not wrong to have preferences either. You shouldn't be mean about them, but it's been, what? 13 years since the last 'old formula' mainline Zelda? And a lot of people didn't even like that one. Babies have grown up and are now in middle school in the time it's taken since. There's gonna be some disgruntlement. People don't get younger.
Well depending what you mean by old.
N64? Yes definitely. Gameboy? Even better! Snes? Best generation!
Gamecube....heck no
Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were great in their own right
All I ask for is good dungeons
Many others are right there with ya.
Was the old Zelda better, yes and no. That's my opinion because I like both.
Basically what I said hahaha - same for the new.
that was a cop-out but I can't choose either
It's not a cop-out to want a game to have the best of both eras.
Ideally Nintendo would just split off a studio to do both. And, in the olden days, this might've been what Nintendo would've done. But modern games are a *massive* investment in terms of programmer labor and, well, money. Modern open world games even more so. In the end the next Zelda sequel's gonna need all hands on deck, and they can't justify devoting any spare programmers to making interval games.
Which is a tragedy, because it takes 5+ years just to launch new titles nowadays and remakes don't fill the void like dev studios wish they did. One good Ocarina-style game between BoTW and ToTK would have sated the itch a lot, and I betcha it wouldn't have taken that long to develop compared to ToTK.
The only thing I can conceivably see is the industry collectively deciding to set a hard limit on the sizes of open world games, but open world *sells* nowadays, so I can't foresee that happening. Everything's trending bigger, vaster, more content, more dev hours. It's not enough to have something the size of Kansas, it has to be half the continental US now. No, it has to be all of North America.
And, well, you just don't have time for side projects when you have to code content for game worlds the size of a whole state.
i think its hard to compare old zelda with new zelda. there is not a really a "better" bc botw/totk are too different from, lets say, majoras mask or oot. yes, they are both zelda but they do feel like different games, even different genres. imo it all comes down to personal taste and what formula you prefer
which is why I said there is good in both and what could potentially make the best zelda game is combining the good elements from the old games with the good elements from the new games.
@@LittleBeanGreen oh yes, i totally agree with that!
Getting stuck in a fair game... better days
Something about overcoming those momentum killing areas really feels good.
I love both:')
good on ya!
Old Zelda.
direct.
Old zelda is better they had actual stories and had proper tools to experiment with instead of game breaking abilities like new zelda has where you don't even have to think to solve puzzles plus the story is basically doesn't exist in the new ones
The progression is just much better in my opinion in the pre-Wild era games