What's the Future of Football Manager with @lollujo and @Secondyellowcard?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- What's the Future of Football Manager with @lollujo and @Secondyellowcard? The FM Show Podcast Ep 61
Last week Sports Interactive dropped a Development Blog that caused a bit of a stir.
FM25 will be delayed. International Management has been removed. As have players weights.
Joining TJ and RDF Tactics on this weeks show, are none other than Lollujo and SecondYellowCard to discuss the removal of these features, and what they think FM25 is going to feel like.
Maybe they could remove some other features? Get rid of attributes maybe? Training? Finances?
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Had lots of fun recording this chaps, thanks for having me on.
FM is sold to you to be so much more in depth and analytical than fifa, then these guys spend the whole podcast talking about how they should reduce the attributes to “attacking, defending, pace etc” like fifa that they ALL make fun of for having stats exactly named that. no shade but i literally remember two of them specifically making fun of this, it’s crazy this idea
Totally agree. I also disagreed with the comment about leadership not being measurable so shouldn't be an attribute. I think it is very clear in football who is a better leader than someone else so an attribute should certainly exist for this.
I think attributes serve a purpose as long as they are measurable.
Listened to this as an Apple Podcast and had the SAME exact reaction. I'd just buy FIFA if the guests and hosts had their changes implemented.
I am 100% disagreeing with the suggestion that attributes should be removed or hidden and I think that the reasoning behind it in this discussion totally neglects that fact that any sane FM player is not watching full games but only highlights. Yes, IF you were in fact watching the full games as well as the training, then by all means remove the attributes since by then, they should be irrelevant, but as long as that is not the case, obviously you need them in order to determine how good a player is and how he will suit your team and playing style. What I would actually like for FM to remove, are the star ratings, since they simplify the game unnecessarily and should be irrelevant as long as you have the attributes.
So while I get what your saying, a detailed scout report can also tell you all you need to know regarding attributes
@@boxmanproductions321 But it is a pain to compare scout reports at a glance.
@@scythian12 also something Real Life managers have to deal with aswell, they sometimes have to rely on staff reports to gather knowledge
Like most things I think there should be options. I'd like the option to remove atteibutes but I get why that would be too much for sum ppl. If they did have a mode without attributes they definitely need to provide more data on player performance so we have other ways to evaluate players. Ive tried a couple of skins that provide more but even then, it isnt enough
there are skins that remove the attributes... maybe there should be an option before starting the game...
"who's going to miss international management, its trash anyway"
missing the forest through the trees through here, international management should have been playable in the first place
Agree with this point. Hopefully it comes back much better. It shouldnt just be kept in because its currently in and not good enough. Take it out and fix it, then bring it back.
@@TheFMShowPodOr, check out this one, this one is amazing... How about they make it better and not take it out of the game
Removing international management the year they introduce women’s football is insanity to me, it’s the pinnacle of the women’s game. Awful awful decision, and I’m really worried this version of FM will be a half baked skeletal mess of a game that won’t be the game it should be until 26 or 27
It's going to be a shit show. We still haven't seen any preview of the graphics and this game is run by a guy who thought their previous game's face generation was state of the art...
They haven’t removed it they just haven’t got time to build it. How long would you want to wait for it to be built? It’s a new game.
@@jc8451haven't got time? They spend 11 months a year making the next version ffs. They're useless ,, they still haven't added an ownership mode which a lot actually want,, no one wants women's football but here you go have it. Feck off.
We need more details...not less.
I love the chat and back and forth...but on the topic of finances, etc: I kinda feel we need to remember that it's called Football Manager, not First Team Manager. Sorry if I am opening myself up to ridicule on this one.
They've clearly bitten off more than they can chew. I'd rather they delay it a year and just do an update for FM24 for the new season. In fact, that's what sports games in general should be doing anyway.
Love the show guys. Why would we remove features though? Whether they actually affect the game or not, I don’t want to play ‘FIFA Manager’ - whilst I don’t care about who’s a player agent is, it still adds a bit of realism given they have negotiation traits. I fear we’re heading down a route of over simplifying the game. We don’t need to. We play FM because of the details it has, whether they affect the game or not.
One thing that does need to change is the ability to put finances back into the club - for example excess transfer budget just disappears. You should have the ability to put that back into club finances. And don’t get me started on the removal of attributes. Just why 😂
It has already become fifa manager in terms of now being able to get players you shouldn't be able to and getting offered a top job after one promotion from the 4th tier.
@@Greeny2290 I think these guys are out of touch as they play for dozens of hours per week as a job, I can understand them wanting less screens to hit ‘continue’ on but many of us play for the detail.
@@michaelh878yeah I’ve always thought that the star rating and reputation goes up too quickly. But then again, I don’t think the game recognises accomplishments enough. For example at the end each season where you get your teams stats - if you rank highly in all of those it should be recognised by either the club you’re managing or elsewhere
@@TheBake1986 I don’t see how less features would aid their job though. For example I watch all of Lollujos stuff - can’t remember a single episode of him using training - I’m sure he does use it but we don’t see it. Maybe I’m a blind FM lover but I want ALL of the detail, whether I use that feature or not 😀
Few things:
No Attributes - If you have a squad of players, you would know in comparison whose fastest to slowest. Same with players in the same league, eventually you will know whose got higher acceleration, whose more clinical. Attributes give you a way to make these comparisons easily. Its not about having a list, its about being able to make comparisons without knowing every single player.
Leadership - In real world, you have leader, vice, secretary, treasury etc and you would pick based on different qualities. You dont need to fit into "your a leader or your not a leader" - but it shouldnt affect PA/CA
se got higher acceleration, whose more clinical. Attributes give you a way to make these comparisons easily
This whole "1 attribute difference" is menial. Its about comparing a 10 from a 15 from a 18. The difference between 16 and 17 is almost nothing
The point SI coming out with we don't really have time to put out a game that's ready therefore we're pulling lots on content doesn't feel good to me for the game as a whole
They don’t really have a choice. I’m sure they abandoned the old platform and fully invested in the new one. So at this point their choice is either release an unfinished game with missing features or don’t release anything for 2025. And the choice there is pretty clear.
@@nicktankard1244 yeah that's going to be the case I just don't think it bodes well for what the players are going to get
As long as they do it to new timescales, that's fine. However, if they need to push it back further, then push it back to next November. Bring out a patch for FM24 for the season to start in 2024 instead. Sorted.
Not sure what that will do for the content creators. I just don't want to wait until April.
that wont happen. money talks.....
On the attribute topic, maybe having a value A-F for each attribute would make more sense than a specific number. They could keep the 1-20 under the hood for the reasons lollujo gave from the developer POV to balance teams, but as a player it’s likely that scouts/coaches would score on an A-F scale instead of 1-20. Then when you half scout a player it could say like “Finishing - B-C, Passing D-C” for example.
I do think RDF might be in the minority when saying that us playing FM resonate with the attributes in the way he said. Most of us just remember the moments, the goals, the crazy comebacks and which players initiated it. I doubt many of us reminisce about our star striker from FM15 having 18 pace for example. We just remember the results and outcomes
The problem is there are 100,000s players in the game, the current attribute system at least makes most of them feel unique in some way, like RDF touched on what would seperate 20,000 wingers that all had ‘A’ in Dribbling, Pace and Agility. Plus many of us play FM because of the detail, A-F ratings are such an elementary format.
Also they already rate A-F even with attributes and frankly if your a lower league team you can't get really great scouts and the worse the scout the more inaccurate some of their reports would be, at least with attributes you can have a look yourself and sometimes you find when looking at attributes that your scout is in fact wrong especially in lower league which so many players play lower down and build up.
Finally someone tries to understand SI's reasons for leaving out International Management from FM25. I totally agree with Kevin @Lollujo
Yes, lets defend SI for not fixing a broken feature for several years.
He earns his money from this game. He will defend their decisions no matter what. Completely biased opinions every time.
I don’t. I’d rather have the same bad implementation than nothing at all. I really like international management.
Only way this could have been worse was to have Zealand on as well. Him and Lollujo have become way too arrogant
IMO Attributes should be mashed into Strengths and Weaknesses. "Good Finisher" is a strength, "Fast" is a strength, "Poor Composure" is a weakness. It may be driven by attributes behind the scenes, but the strengths and weaknesses can be revealed by scouts or playing time. Good scouts spot more of them, play time reveals things the scouts missed etc
there is no future, theres no competition so they'll do whatever they want, however they want and all you idiots will still buy it while Miles laughs his way to the bank. We need to find a competitor to FM and back it so SI have to do SOME ACTUAL WORK.
STFU. You are acting like this is FIFA!
"why have weight, it doesn't affect anything"
why have place of birth, why have media description, why have media opinion
Because those things don't become inaccurate overnight if the player eats a cheeseburger, and are actually interesting?
People do challenge runs based on player nationality/place of birth. It's cool to see the media are calling your player world class.
Knowing my player weighs a bizarrely static 80kg is just a bit of a nothing stat. It doesn't tell me anything about how they play, how they're viewed in the game world and I'm not about to do a 65-75kg only challenge.
Come on, actually think about it before you just hurl other things out and say 'WHY HAVE THESE THEN?'
@@aduboo29yeah, I agree that the current static weight implementation is meaningless. It should be dynamic, like players gaining muscle mass as they develop, maybe gaining weight after summer breaks, or some players have a predisposition for gaining weight, as it happens in real life. Especially at lower levels
Lollujo is always a blast
Also, get rid of the Clauses... it's too easy to get a budget instantly at low level teams... and it doesn't happen in real life.
Agree. Finances need another overhaul. It's far too easy to exploit.
Kevs Barca rebuild with all the debt was the best save but it still had issues that are hard coded into the game. Hopefully the new build on fm25 gets rid of the deep bugs
I'm stunned that every single creator I have seen has completely ignored the feature of transferring FM24 save to FM25. Anyone with a International management job won't be able to have their file playable as FM25 won't be able to read it including the club part of their save. Considering this was one of SI's selling points last year they should be getting called out for it.
We actually mention this in next weeks show which we recorded last night
Is that still the case if I managed a nation 10 seasons ago in my save?
Better manager AI improvement is too far away, so why not have SI use the top tactics freely available to download and the AI managers use them?
having that financial info in the game should mean they have a football director mode built in
Attributes like speed should be relevant. If a guy can run the length of the field in 15 seconds and no.1 in world football can do that he should have a 20 speed. Harry Maguire should be a 10 if he’s in the Prem or league 2
Regarding difficulty, expensive and time consuming AI improvements aren't the only option. You can literally just have difficulty levels/sliders like other sports games. Which yes, is the absolute 'worst' way to add difficulty but having that option is a value add for some people seeking a challenge, and it's easy to implement. Probably not worth it, but it's an option.
When it comes to attribute masking, without them you have a realism problem in the other direction. In real life you can have in depth discussions with your staff, you have the time to watch hours of film on guys, you watch them run around in training every day, a thousand other ways you gain information that aren't represented in a videogame. So until the game uses LLMs to program AI scouts I can have conversations with, gives me a film guy that can deliver me hours of film to watch, and lets me watch training sessions, I'll take the attributes, thanks!
Get rid of some of the stats and give them personality traits like; he’s a leader, he’s a long ball specialist, he’s a penalty god 🎉🎉🎉
Stamina or natural fitness. I think we could have always guessed that Rooney was not going to play longer than Ronaldo.
FM is a one player game. Real football has many many many people to do all the tasks. Trying to filter it down to have enough to keep people interested and have the variety is important. F1 manager failed early on for not having the depth and that was much closer to one person, one job but even that went beyond a single persons remit.
And for that to work, the AI staff you have should be capable of handling things and often they are not good even with 20 in all stats.
take it from someone who taught at a school of broadcasting: if you *like* being on the business end of a camera, nervous or not, you have the intangibles necessary. to be a good broadcaster is literally down to having a pleasant response to the attention
Not sure calling people who dont agree with you 'thick' or a 'meathead' qualifies but being a narcissist certainly does....................
@@belladonna5531 you are very dumb. never speak to me again
Great episode. Kev was on top form. Really enjoyed it, both for the laughs but also the conversation. Cracking stuff.
Thanks 👍
Saving this as a evidence of the beginning of the inevitable FM Streamer Showdown feud between Kev and Tony
I play with the Mustermann skin - Takes away the numbers and gives a graphical clue to attributes - has made FM 10 times more enjoyable relying on Coach and Scout Reports and what I see with my eyes during the game
You can see Managers or Coaches Preferred Formations btw
On the weight issue it may have no in game effect i just like to have the info in there
Scouting and coaches just needs to be more in depth. Telling you details about players to instruct you more on choosing them instead of attributes as much. They should be more of guide but can change based on performance and mood and things.
All the things they want to get rid of are why I play FM instead of FIFA. I care much more about finances, club and squad building than tactics and the matches themselves.
Food and nutrition in FM26? We'll have to have a Menu Planner - everyone will use it!!!
Can't they make a women's fm game?.
Kev is too funny man😂😂
The fact my next video for FM24 was genuinely to do with weight is really making this so funny. I've been gifted views if I can get it out there soon.
I've been watching kev for years and I didn't know he was so funny
"I don't think anyone is looking for Endrick based on his attributes" - This is so wrong lol, how do you think so many players found out about this guy. Same with a lot of wonderkids or regens, found through player search looking at attributes and yes when I see that young player with attributes above a certain level I fall in love with him. Exact reason why people post their regen attributes to Reddit
Honestly I feel for RDF here, I think he can relate more to the general audience of the game
Respect to you all, there was some disappointing dialogue in this one.
Absolutely brilliant podcast kev is brilliant
They could simply state "weak" and "strong" areas of players rather than having attributes with numbers, that makes it more real, given it's reasonable to say this player is good at "shooting" but not the best at "heading" and so on.
I thought Lollujo went through every data from "Data hub" to make team better.
without attributes, there would also be a "need" to watch some players yourself... when you don't have good scouts, for example.
It would then take ages to get through a season and you are still at a major disadvantage vs real life unless you watch the full games AND the training. Absolutely not realistic for 99.99% of the FM players. The attributes serve a great - and necessary - purpose as a substitute for having to do all that.
Plenty of skins give you the option to mask or hide attributes, so just download and use one of those.
If game was to go attribute-less they have to have better historically archived data that is not wiped every season
If SI took out all the tedious, half-baked features, á la international management, we would be left with the squad management and tactics screen.
People don't understand the work they had to put in to get woman's football into the game. Probably a reason why they didn't manage to get international football in as they would have to sort out both. For the first time. Also make it actually good. Club World Cup is in fm24 I've won once don't understand how you qualify tho
Much love for all 4 of you but rdf talking about ppl moaning about 4-2-3-1 tactics killing it. Dude you Release ur over powered tactics for these players to constantly get the W. As for removing Attributes could put it to a bar like LMA MANAGER. Then if a player progress on shooting or anything else u would get some sort of msg saying finishing as gained +1. But as I said much love to all four of them. fm would be boring with out them ❤
1.06 depends of the level of club i suppose
international was great for having 4 mates play the euros an stuff like that....shafting that an adding the woman's game seems like a bad call
Time for FMVR
Regarding new features in FM. I want SI games to stop making new features. Instead I want interconnectivity between the already implemented systems, and more clever code made by people who understand games, coding AND football. Something that Football Manager has always lacked is that feeling that the ingame world is alive and real, and I think it comes down to each part of the game being coded without affecting any other parts of the game.
Specifically, what I mean is to make everything more dynamic & meaningful. If you're constantly awful in press conferences, in real life that would damage a club's reputation. It would affect dynamics of your team, sponsorship deals and so much more. In FM one question from the press might affect 1 player's morale a bit, but often it doesn't have a real impact. Another example is youth ratings for nations. Imagine a small nation winning the World Cup in real life. You can be sure that a lot of little kids in that nation will now want to become footballers. A simple way to implement this is to just have the national team rankings decide the youth ratings. I want all parts of the game to be dynamic like that. I also want the game to react more realistically to what the player does. In every single save, I do something the club I manage has never done before in real life. I win the champions leagues and top tier league with tiny lower league clubs, and besides an A+ rating that year, it feels like no one actually gives a crap. Sponsors, reputation, and players will react a bit, sure, but only within a certain limited amount, because the game is not able to handle something that has never happened in real life before - but the problem is, every single save I do, includes a lot of stuff that has never happened in real life, because that's the fun part, and FM's reaction to it is so weak that it's incredibly immersion breaking.
Also, stuff that happens in real life football is so much more interesting than anything that happens in FM, and I just wish they would implement more events to the ingame world. In real life in Denmark there was literally a scammer that got a contract with a top league team without being a pro footballer, by using a phishing email. There was a manager that got fired for twisting his players' nipples and calling his out-of-shape players nicknames like "bacon". There was a top tier club that almost got bought by another scammer, that was lying on his CV, and making crazy promises like bringing David Luiz to the club. There was the Danish national team players striking because of salary discussions, where Denmark had to use third/forth tier unknown players for an official match against Slovakia. Obviously these examples are all too ridiculous for FM, I don't actually want stuff like that, but they're good examples of just how uneventful FM is compared to real life. I just want maybe 10% of that. There are so many possibilities to make player and media interaction interesting, to have unique events or random things happening to make the world come alive, and FM just has none of that.
They improve it every year - Kev. Really? CM4 - hold my beer
Great show all 👍🏻
Thanks 👍
Can someone explain to me what's is wrong with international management? What is missing?
Now I need to find out what hair powder is
Time for kev to start his own podcast
Check out Mustermann's skin no attributes.
Football Manager are inept at linking in with any real world events. The Qatar world cup was just after game release, perfect time for international management to be revamped. Women's world cup coming to the fore the next year, delayed again. Football manager world cup just before game release with all the fm influencers and real football personalities in one room together, no annoucement/teaser/anything.
Attributes - get rid. We need a better system of scouting and data though. Most clubs would hold data for sprints (100m timings) and stamina (bleep test) - so maybe hold numbers on these club data results.
Kev is a loveable wang 😂
Only the game engine can save fm25...
Damn Im crying from so much laugh
Football Manager is trash and broken. For everyone that says otherwise they just enjoy role playing the game. It’s completely broken and was sold to us as being the most complete FM game ever. These developers are too concerned with removing weight from the game then they are fixing there broken game. I’m done with this broken mess and these terrible fraudulent developers.
Comment for the algo
Thank you Matt, if you're gonna waste your time putting womens game into it (which the international game is almost more than club as nobody really cares of clubs) revamp international football but the removals are literally to cater to the women (weights irrelevant almost but only removed to stop woke loons crying)
I'm gutted that you guys haven't had access to the new game to talk about it. I'm worried about the roll out this year