that Akuma story made me remember when KoF 97 was relesead, the people sticked a note with the codes for the secret characters at the arcade machine where I used to play, here in Brazil
That's dope. Memories serve the more skilled players back in the day being total knowledge hogs. I feel like the last game whee people were being stingy with knowledge was Marvel vs Capcom but the community has softened over time
Early fatal fury/art of fighting/kof had no end of innovation. Team based fighting, crossover dream matches, super moves, literally everything that smash took inspiration from e.g. short hops, rolls, etc. They were on the forefront of graphics on at least 3 occasions too. Though they also had times where they were behind. Currently in one of those times.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, this episode just basically skipped all of SNK's innovations completely. Even if it kind of sucked, the plane system was the first attempt at 3d fighting. AOF created the super move. Samurai Sodown created the super meter and parries (I believe). KOF had a ton of innovations including teams, hops, and rolls.
Samurai Shodown 4 had "Grooves" or variations whatever you wanna call it lol. Came out in 96' Kof 97 n 98 ended adding it too, with 98 UM giving you the option to customize the styles. Battle damage in Art of Fighting, taunts! Tmnt tournament fighters is just POW meter from SamSho lol
@@pimsbury5155 Spot dodge in KOF! Jumping back and forth into different panels like Fatal Fury. SNK did so much for FGs it's crazy! Them N Capcom was doing soooo much in 90s lol
Surprised there’s no mention of guilty gear +r replay system that lets you pause the replay and take control of character to test out situations from your matches. It’s seriously the most innovative thing I’ve seen in years
@@El_Beat mk had their trademark "dial a combo" where you pressed a ton of stuff in a row and then your combo happened. It was lame. Street fighters link system feels objectively better and has been adopted more, with strings as well.
Do people realise how much the EX series introduced? 1. In depth training mode 2. Trial mode 3. Guard breaks 4. Special cancels into super 5. Super into super super cancels 6. Cinematic level 3s (meteor combos) 7. Just frame special into special (momentary combo) 8. The BEST tag mechanics ever put in a fighting game 9. Meter bonuses 10. Not innovative but EX2 had the best version of the custom combo mechanic with the excel system
@@j03T3XAzI just wish FEXL was an tag team with EX2+ mechanics, I think the game would have been received totally differently if that were the case, and I WISH they used the original VAs, the new ones are painfully bad
@@j03T3XAz because it lacked SF characters. A major appeal for fighting games is the characters... it's the same reason SF3 took a while to take off... or why MvC:I failed... it lack3d familiar, desired characters... Darun Mister or Doctrine Dark aren't well known names now but everyone knows who Zangief or Dhalsim are.
My go to example of (sadly misunderstood) innovative game/mechanic would be Pokken and it's Phase shift system, which adds a lot: People erroneously see it as a arena fighter, (max did when he played it, sadly, wish he'd give it another go!), but in reality the core of the design is still focused around the 2d phase where characters have full movelists, there's a height system (though it too has unique aspects), cancels, just-frames, etc: Rather the phase shift system is best thought of as a mechanic on top of that 2d fighter base, where it acts as an anti-infinite system that forces a return to neutral, the 3d phase acting as an extended buffer layer of neutral play, and most importantly, does a lot to emphasize adaptation and reduce flowcharting: Different moves, on hit, will add more or less PSP to the hidden phase shift point guage, which determines when a 2d to 3d shift happens. So at a high level of play, players will constantly be changing up their move choices and combo routes/composition up to ensure that their combos end right when a shift occurs to maximize damage and avoid their combo being interrupted by the shift, OR changing the moves/combo routes up to manipulate when shifts happen based on if they feel like shifting faster or slower is more to their advantage in that moment, or the character matchup, etc: For example, it may be better to go with a less safe or less damaging combo that keeps the enemy in the corner and under pressure that might lead to higher long term damage upsides (compared to doing your optimal and the shift letting them out of the corner) sort of like a reset. On the other hand, maybe it might be better to do a combo that shifts right away or adds extra PSP even if it's less optimal or safe, because YOU want a breather and to go back to neutral, or because being the one that causes a shift gives you meter and health regen. Activating burst when you have full meter also produces a little wave that, if it staggers the enemy, resets the PSP guage to zero, meaning that if you're pressuring the enemy and the PSP guage is almost full, you can use burst as an offensive tool to continue to rack up hits and do corner combos when they'd normally be broken out. Some moves also reduce the guage, so it's also a resource mangement thing. I also mentioned how Pokken handles attack heights differently, to the point where a lot of people don't realize it has a height system (the tutorial not explaining the height system at all or the PSP guage doesn't help here): Rather then heights being a tool for you to bypass and punish blocking, heights in Pokken exist as a way to bypass and punish moves during their active frames. Having specific moves that are invulnerable to moves of specific heights isn't too rare in fighting games, like launchers in DBFZ, but in Pokken the entire height system is designed around that sort of thing, and there's also 6 different height states, much more then in most. This means that there's way more opportunities to preform reversals and either turn being pressured into you having the advantage, or, like the phase system, to at least break back into neutral play. Both of these systems/mechanics, along with other aspects of the game (characters tend to have pretty versatile toolkits which means no two players use the characters in the same way and there's a lot of room for player expression and adapatative descisionmaking) mean that Pokken is very neutral and fundamentals heavy game, which I love.
Easily one the most overlooked/under appreciated, taken for granted, important gameplay innovations, once introduced, became a staple, a fundamental core element in all fighting games, 2D, 3D, 2.5D and even arena fighters, and its…..throw techs/grab breaks. You definitely feel this change if you mostly play modern fighting games, and then go back and play retro ones without it. And even I’ll admit, I have no idea which game truly was the first to introduce throw breaks.
Street Fighter 2 turbo had tech throws, it didn't negate the throw but it makes it do less damage and you land on your feet. So I guess the reason it's not really considered an innovation is because it's been around since basically the dawn of fighting games. It's a design choice. Some retro games had it, some didn't.
SF2 for a lot of things but the Archetypes that game had are literally the same today throughout fighting games. If they’re not, the character is usually based off of the archetype with a twist. Even the motion inputs for those characters have remained. SF2 gets all it’s flowers but it really started so much. Love the game, for its flaws, I think it earns its place because it’s still so fun to play.
For me, the best innovation is cross play. I hate being excited to play with my friends but then we can’t all connect together because we are on different platforms. Crossplay needs to be standard on fighting games but sadly there are very few games were everyone can connect online.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Melty Blood for 2 things: 1 - The Moon Styles in Actress Again is kind of a mixture of Grooves and Variations, as they change both system mechanics and special moves for each character 2 - It's a series known for having a duo character in Hisui & Kohaku (aka the maid twins)
Innovation for me was Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter's announcer screaming every super move when you win using them. Even to this day I still say "Shun Goku Satsu" in his voice when I finish a round with a Raging Demon. (That announcer needs to comeback for future Marvel Vs games)
I was super disappointed when the announcer in mvc2 didn't call out the super names :( But there were probably too many characters and supers for that to happen. It also is the reason why we didn't have character themes in MVC2.
Funny story: when I was a kid, me and my cousin used to play pretend Street Fighter and in that play we used to pretend to launch these huge hadoukens and stuff. That was before we found out about the versus games, so when I saw X-men vs Street Fighter for the first time it blew my mind when I saw Ryu using this huge ass hadouken that we used to do when we played pretend.
Thank you Justin, Matt, and Maximillian for this fun episode. This walk down memory lane made me nostalgic so much so I took out my copy of Virtual Fighter2 and my Sega Saturn.
The rapport between the three of you guys really make this podcast great, every one is a good listen. Even if it's for fighters I have no knowledge on or don't care for.
32:43 Dude, I still have that M.U.G.E.N. build with this exact logo. I got it in like 2009, so before the actual MvC3 was even announced. It's still got some incredibly well-animated sprites like Thor and Sandman (I don't know who was the author of those, but think it's the same guy that made Deadpool and Wonder Woman, who are also in this build). Then it also has all the Super Saiyan SF characters like Shadow Lady and Evil Ryu, only they're turned to 15 compared to their MvC versions. 35:47 Oh yeah, DOA2 team attacks were dope. The characters were always arranged in columns, so you would know the character above or below you is your special team attacks. And then bonus ones you would figure out after playing the character's arcade mode and learning the lore. 40:34 What, going back to MK and no mention how it also had a "3D button" (even two) and then it also had multi-layered stages and instant-kill traps?
Personally, the biggest innovation is showing your moves on the pause screen. Going back to older games I've never tried and trying to guess or having to google the inputs made me appreciate move lists
Sega Channel had Eternal Champions on it basically all the time. But Sega Channel was also literally a broadcast cable channel. It was exactly like loading data from a one minute magnetic tape loop except all digital. The receiver could not send requests, it could only wait. It worked exactly like the British Ceefax teletext news system but sending much more data per second.
Hey commenters! I love this show so much it's kind of hard finding fighting game fans and I'm so glad that these three are doing this. Not only are they huge fans of all my favorite games they have so much insight into the genre and the industry as a whole, they're also very funny! Thank you Justin, Matt and Max. Keep up the good work :-)
05:30 Didn't Smash Melee (2001~02) had a training mode where you could make the P2 character do simple actions or I'm remembering this wrong? I know you couldn't record actions like modern training modes but you could make the caracter jump or do simple attacks, I think.
You could set them to jump, walk, to become a player or to fight based on the CPU level you picked but I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 64 did it as well.
On re watching this (I may have mentioned this before) one of the biggest innovations for fighting games is the numerical method for move lists... I remember owning a strategy guide for some game and seeing notations like that for the first time and being confused... it's only when I next played Soul Calibur 2 that it made sense... because those games don't have a traditional jump (you hold Guard and tap up OR tap up and an attack simultaneously to jump) I could then imagine might character on a grid where each number was a direction. It made learning 8 way run a lot easier.
Snk definitely innovated by adding hundreds of animations for 4 buttons to compensate for lack of six buttons, context sensitive inputs and dual button presses for extra animations
51:00 Maids in MBTL do this too which is why their oki was crazy also they have compoud moves where you can plant a tree and the other can water it and it makes a big pressure tool! Also you have an active tag for them
For innovation some games come to mind Samurai Shodown-An early weapons-based fighter that does what Art of Fighting did but better, being a slower more methodical fighter where every hit matters. It also is an early example of a revenge mechanic, pretty sure it's not the first to include getting stronger as you lose health but probably the first to tie it to a specific meter. Bushido Blade-Innovated in that it had the more realistic combat like how individual body parts can be harmed or you can be killed in one shot. Haven't played much of it myself but I would experience similar gameplay ideas in the Deadliest Warrior games on PS3/360 Darkstalkers- Things like air blocking and ex attacks
Virtua Fighter 4 had he best training mode. A lot of ppl didnt know about or forget how innovate that training mode was, it got watered down in the later console releases and they honestly havent done it since. CVS2 was the first game I remember having record function on the game.
I've been bringing up ping/connection indicators for probably the past 8 years or so. PC benchmark tests also shouldn't be too much to ask for if people are going to play in ranked matches. If you want to be competitive making sure your game runs properly should be step 1. My mind was blown when NRS actually committed to it in MK11 and major props to them for it
Not sure if they count as innovations, but whatever game started the "Burst" mechanic that you see in games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, along with Roman/Rapid Cancels in those same games, seem like very unique mechanics that will probably catch on at least in the Indie scene more as those series grow in popularity.
I'm not sure if this is what they did for Mortal Kombat, but for classic Doom they basically made their digitized sprites greyscale, then manually recolored them. That way they have much a much smoother color palette than taking whatever the camera spit out.
I feel like training mode is the biggest innovation. Literally all of the tech that we want to use in our game play was created in a type of "training mode". I consider things like Justin using the rubber band to make the other controller hold down block in order for him to practice stuff as training mode. Such a huge creation for fighting games.
Im wondering if they're interested in talking about modded fighting games. After seeing Justin play that 4th strike mod it'd be interesting to hear their thoughts on how these things affected the original scene and meta the modded games were based on. Project M, Smash Remix, that Godzilla save the earth melee mod, the new characters people are adding to umvc3, shit even that sailor moon fighter got modded I think. I'd love to see them talk about it!
I played an n64 fighting game that you could go into training mode,customize the ai, and it also had an adaptive difficulty that would learn your inputs and get harder and harder to get better with you in real time like a human would.
Speaking of MK and the block button, did anyone else have an issue with MK 2 on the Super Nintendo where the block button just didn't work on P2? The controller was fine, but it just didn't let P2 block
Training Modes definitely started with 2D fighters, and I'm talking early to mid 90s like 94/95. Started in Generation 5. I clearly remember them in the Alpha series alone.
lol I remember that rumble fish 2 cab in CF. as a non fighting game player I put a few rounds in from time to time because it meant that I got to play till I lost instead of until someone else played next to me. Also I didn't even see footage of the game trolling japanese sites at the time so it was super interesting.
So i thought for the longest time that in MvC 1 you could do an input followed by the swap buttons and it would make your other character do an MvC 2 style assist but because of the input you could pick which one would happen.
Believe it or not I think SF the Movie the game (The PS1/Saturn versions) get the credit for that. That was definitely the first SF game I remember having EX moves. That game came out in 1995.
I think 8 Way Run is probably one of the best innovations for 3D fighters. Like Matt said, everything else just feels like shit movement-wise until I play Soul Calibur again. It's just a shame that SC had to go out the way it did.
Wild question that I'd like some experienced perspective on: What do you think would happen to the meta of a fighting game if you removed all crouching pokes? Not all crouching attacks. You could still do a dedicated sweep attack, and you could still do a crouching block, but low attacks would be executed from a standing position and taking a powerful mid while in a crouching block position would cause you to stumble backwards (basically, exactly what would happen in real life). Theoretically, do you think that would make a game more or less dependent on footsies? (This is part of research for a fighting game prototype I'm designing.)
Tekken is kinda like that, the way it works is that you block highs and mids while standing and you react to lows by crouching, but while you're crouching you can't block mids. But tbh the whole crouching low attack is just an animation thing, most games make crouching kicks a low for clarity/tradition, and even then they're not always like that. Makoto's cr. mk is a mid, same with Mika, while Sagat's foward+mk is a low in V. Function wise, in SF at least, lows are all about controlling movement, since you can't block them while walking away, if you got pushed back far away every time you blocked a mid while crouching in a SF-like game, it would be really annoying since lows and mids aren't reactable and people wouldn't want to take the risk of getting hit with a low while stand blocking. Either that or lows/mids would have to be nerfed, either by making lows more stubby, super slow like current overheads, or very unsafe, but at that point you're just becoming Tekken anyway.
I know MVC & MVC2 especially are highly regarded today. But my friends and I never thought they were any good. And I think it was due to the area we grew up. No arcades existed and we just had it on dreamcast. And what seemed strong to us was just shooting projectiles at each other. No frame of reference to how the game should be played. But I also think even if we understood it would not have helped any. At all. It scarred us to this day. Once we found Tekken that was our fighting game of choice because it had no projectiles. While I will dabble in some MK or SF, my other friends won't play anything else with me but Tekken. When we play Tekken 7 Akuma and Geese are house rule banned and using your rage art is considered laming your opponent out. That is the evolutionary effect MVC had on some folks.
Among the things that I thought were innovative, which wasn't mentioned, are the games where you can also "jump" down. I don't know which fighting game did it first, but I first encountered it in Touhou 15.5 and I was sold on it.
In order to jump down you have to either be flying/floating or have another plane below the main/neutral one. Touhou 15.5 did the former. I can see Matt and maybe Justin being interested in playing that game (too “weeb” for Max).
@@killerb255 (True enough. Though, maybe if the "jump down" mechanic was sold alongside the tag team aspect, perhaps there would be a sliver of a chance that Max would try it out, like he did "Melty Hearts." )
Shadow AI in Killer instinct was great....and something that if expanded on in other games could be amazing, I think something similar was in a virtua fighter game to.
KI wasn't the first to do this. IIRC, I think VF4E had the first "pro AI" in their game, which was programmed to be similar to tournament winners. But Tekken 5 DR was the first to have custom "ghosts" in their game. You could even save your friends' ghosts so you can train against them when they're not present. I'm saddened they got rid of this in T7, and hope they bring it back in T8. Ngl, I would like it in every FG.
I literally bought an Xbox-Series-X and Game Pass just to have 2013 KI. I love that game sooooooooo much and I had to have it. Loving it and learning so much. I remember back in the 90's when there was such as a thing as Coliseum Mall in Hampton Virginia and at the Tilt Arcade when they got the original Killer Instinct in. I was floored when I saw that game.
Soul Caliber innovated defense mechanics with the repel (forward +Guard) and parry (back+guard), DOA innovated with the 8 way hold systems, and then how innovated a lot of 3D arenas. DoA 1 and DoA 2 are night and day. DOA has innovated its gameplay with Tag throws, stage/arena interaction way before any other game did. Tekken tried it in 4 but people hated it but only coz Namco did it badly, Tekken Tag 2, 6 & 7 got it down somewhat but DOA deserves a lot of credit for pushing things with 3D fighters. The game industry also owes it for creating boob physics LOL!!!!
Max is right about Tekken TAG. On PS2, it looks so good! In arcade, it looks like Tekken 3 graphics. For me, that’s when arcades died. Literally no reason to go there anymore after that
I still remember being so gutted cause in the UK RE Outbreak didn't have online functionality but the sequel did, but it still wasn't till I got a PS3 that I was finally able to play online console games and the fucking servers got shutdown mid my first ever session with it :,)
What if you could make a game out of any existing property. Similar to how DNF Duel took a non fighting game and turned it fighting. Any show, movie, game whatever
I remember when I lived in San Diego and I'd take the kid's to "Family Fun Center is now BOOMER'S" and up the road, Nickle City, I'd put tokens in the second player side just so I could practice in fighting game's. Cheesy, I know. 🤓
Okay, does anyone remember years before the Wii even existed there being a fighting game, it might have even been Tekken where you stand a platform and you can actually throw punches and kicks and duck and stuff? I have this memory of visiting the amusement park inside West Edmonton Mall, and they had it set up in their arcade. It was such a cool concept but was sooooo janky. Had to be mid-90s.
I also have played this but mine was at playdium. The game was mortal kombat(trilogy?) from what i remembered. Funny enough as a kid knowing the motion inputs, i was ducking then leaning forward and throwing a punch and was freezing everyone because it was hard to stop as jumping forward meant you actually had to JUMP a bit forward. It was definitely janky to say the least.
this video was the perfect oportunity to talk about a lot of hidden games that tried weird and innovative shit, but then max start with the same 5 games he always talk about (the vs series, the sf's, KI, VF, MK, etc). It gets boring fast. Someone could have mention the Asuka 120% series, the game that inspired Guilty gear and a lot of anime fighters. The specific tag zone fighter of kizuna encounter, the bushido blades, the slash and burst systems of Samsho 3, the multi-grab system of Tobal 2, the musical combos of slap rhythm busters, the creepy tag fighter groove on fight where you can attack with the dead body of your partner, the flying telekinesis combat of Psychic force, etc
Yeah but ya know those games you mentioned not a lot of people of played course was because Fighting games was over saturated at that point and those 5 games were the MOST popular and the ones you mentioned didn't had a following so yeah that's why they didn't mention it. You can hop into Max and/or Justin stream to tell them to start talking about it.
Max's tastes and thoughts can be too mainstream for some topics. If he ever does end up playing something niche, it's usually part of YoVideogames where they just play a bunch of random games in a marathon and don't really think about them ever again.
@@professorpuzzle3463 Yeah it's pretty much a big problem with a lot of mainstream gamers in general is that they all follow on franchises they grew up with and popular IPS that everyone knows and talks about, all niche games/franchises don't get a lot of love or people don't try to see the innovations of the game as they play it for maybe 3 hours and move on to something else. Some mainstream gamers would like to talk about something different and niche but are afraid it won't get a lot of attention and interests due to youtube's algorithm and audience interest.
You guys do understand that games are expensive right? They cant just buy every single game so of course the mainstream ones are talked about besides all those niche games you all mention are pretty wack
that Akuma story made me remember when KoF 97 was relesead, the people sticked a note with the codes for the secret characters at the arcade machine where I used to play, here in Brazil
That's dope. Memories serve the more skilled players back in the day being total knowledge hogs. I feel like the last game whee people were being stingy with knowledge was Marvel vs Capcom but the community has softened over time
I love that kind of stuff
PROHIBIDO JUGAR CON RUGAL
Early fatal fury/art of fighting/kof had no end of innovation. Team based fighting, crossover dream matches, super moves, literally everything that smash took inspiration from e.g. short hops, rolls, etc. They were on the forefront of graphics on at least 3 occasions too. Though they also had times where they were behind. Currently in one of those times.
Let's only talk about the taunt 😉
Absolutely. Unfortunately, this episode just basically skipped all of SNK's innovations completely. Even if it kind of sucked, the plane system was the first attempt at 3d fighting. AOF created the super move. Samurai Sodown created the super meter and parries (I believe). KOF had a ton of innovations including teams, hops, and rolls.
Samurai Shodown 4 had "Grooves" or variations whatever you wanna call it lol. Came out in 96'
Kof 97 n 98 ended adding it too, with 98 UM giving you the option to customize the styles.
Battle damage in Art of Fighting, taunts!
Tmnt tournament fighters is just POW meter from SamSho lol
@@shyecity916 Samsho 3 introduced the Slash/Bust system in 1995 even!
@@pimsbury5155 Spot dodge in KOF!
Jumping back and forth into different panels like Fatal Fury.
SNK did so much for FGs it's crazy! Them N Capcom was doing soooo much in 90s lol
Surprised there’s no mention of guilty gear +r replay system that lets you pause the replay and take control of character to test out situations from your matches.
It’s seriously the most innovative thing I’ve seen in years
It's such an amazing feature
There is no bigger innovation in fighting games than SFII's glitch that allowed you to do combos.
I bet combos would exist even if that glitch never existed, ppl would come up with that mechanic I’m certain
@@El_Beat mk had their trademark "dial a combo" where you pressed a ton of stuff in a row and then your combo happened. It was lame. Street fighters link system feels objectively better and has been adopted more, with strings as well.
C-C-C-Combobreaker!
More FGs with long ass combos this as an option.
@@alyshamaurer9541 right, I made that distinction I thought. My bad if it wasn't clear bro.
Did they mention that in the vid?
Do people realise how much the EX series introduced?
1. In depth training mode
2. Trial mode
3. Guard breaks
4. Special cancels into super
5. Super into super super cancels
6. Cinematic level 3s (meteor combos)
7. Just frame special into special (momentary combo)
8. The BEST tag mechanics ever put in a fighting game
9. Meter bonuses
10. Not innovative but EX2 had the best version of the custom combo mechanic with the excel system
In the place i used to play as a kid, SFex2 was king, people played that game a lot ♥️
@@bernardocatrilef2846 yeah same here, I grew up in Australia and EX2+ was the biggest fighting game in arcades for years
I wonder why FEXL died off when ppl seem to love SFEX mechanics so much?
@@j03T3XAzI just wish FEXL was an tag team with EX2+ mechanics, I think the game would have been received totally differently if that were the case, and I WISH they used the original VAs, the new ones are painfully bad
@@j03T3XAz because it lacked SF characters. A major appeal for fighting games is the characters... it's the same reason SF3 took a while to take off... or why MvC:I failed... it lack3d familiar, desired characters... Darun Mister or Doctrine Dark aren't well known names now but everyone knows who Zangief or Dhalsim are.
My go to example of (sadly misunderstood) innovative game/mechanic would be Pokken and it's Phase shift system, which adds a lot: People erroneously see it as a arena fighter, (max did when he played it, sadly, wish he'd give it another go!), but in reality the core of the design is still focused around the 2d phase where characters have full movelists, there's a height system (though it too has unique aspects), cancels, just-frames, etc: Rather the phase shift system is best thought of as a mechanic on top of that 2d fighter base, where it acts as an anti-infinite system that forces a return to neutral, the 3d phase acting as an extended buffer layer of neutral play, and most importantly, does a lot to emphasize adaptation and reduce flowcharting: Different moves, on hit, will add more or less PSP to the hidden phase shift point guage, which determines when a 2d to 3d shift happens.
So at a high level of play, players will constantly be changing up their move choices and combo routes/composition up to ensure that their combos end right when a shift occurs to maximize damage and avoid their combo being interrupted by the shift, OR changing the moves/combo routes up to manipulate when shifts happen based on if they feel like shifting faster or slower is more to their advantage in that moment, or the character matchup, etc: For example, it may be better to go with a less safe or less damaging combo that keeps the enemy in the corner and under pressure that might lead to higher long term damage upsides (compared to doing your optimal and the shift letting them out of the corner) sort of like a reset. On the other hand, maybe it might be better to do a combo that shifts right away or adds extra PSP even if it's less optimal or safe, because YOU want a breather and to go back to neutral, or because being the one that causes a shift gives you meter and health regen. Activating burst when you have full meter also produces a little wave that, if it staggers the enemy, resets the PSP guage to zero, meaning that if you're pressuring the enemy and the PSP guage is almost full, you can use burst as an offensive tool to continue to rack up hits and do corner combos when they'd normally be broken out. Some moves also reduce the guage, so it's also a resource mangement thing.
I also mentioned how Pokken handles attack heights differently, to the point where a lot of people don't realize it has a height system (the tutorial not explaining the height system at all or the PSP guage doesn't help here): Rather then heights being a tool for you to bypass and punish blocking, heights in Pokken exist as a way to bypass and punish moves during their active frames. Having specific moves that are invulnerable to moves of specific heights isn't too rare in fighting games, like launchers in DBFZ, but in Pokken the entire height system is designed around that sort of thing, and there's also 6 different height states, much more then in most. This means that there's way more opportunities to preform reversals and either turn being pressured into you having the advantage, or, like the phase system, to at least break back into neutral play.
Both of these systems/mechanics, along with other aspects of the game (characters tend to have pretty versatile toolkits which means no two players use the characters in the same way and there's a lot of room for player expression and adapatative descisionmaking) mean that Pokken is very neutral and fundamentals heavy game, which I love.
54:55 As a kid from Wisconsin whose first fighting game happened to be Virtua Fighter 2 on the Sega Genesis this banter hit hard
Easily one the most overlooked/under appreciated, taken for granted, important gameplay innovations, once introduced, became a staple, a fundamental core element in all fighting games, 2D, 3D, 2.5D and even arena fighters, and its…..throw techs/grab breaks.
You definitely feel this change if you mostly play modern fighting games, and then go back and play retro ones without it. And even I’ll admit, I have no idea which game truly was the first to introduce throw breaks.
Street Fighter 2 turbo had tech throws, it didn't negate the throw but it makes it do less damage and you land on your feet. So I guess the reason it's not really considered an innovation is because it's been around since basically the dawn of fighting games. It's a design choice. Some retro games had it, some didn't.
@@no_nameyouknow Super Street Fighter II Turbo. Street Fighter II Turbo is something different and doesn't have throw techs.
Waiting to pre-order my Wong band
This show keeps getting better and better. I did not believe they would be this consistent with weekly shows
The 3D Era’s stance change mechanics was pretty interesting. It’s like you being able to switch variations during the match.
SF2 for a lot of things but the Archetypes that game had are literally the same today throughout fighting games. If they’re not, the character is usually based off of the archetype with a twist. Even the motion inputs for those characters have remained. SF2 gets all it’s flowers but it really started so much.
Love the game, for its flaws, I think it earns its place because it’s still so fun to play.
For me, the best innovation is cross play. I hate being excited to play with my friends but then we can’t all connect together because we are on different platforms. Crossplay needs to be standard on fighting games but sadly there are very few games were everyone can connect online.
Strive has it now 🎉🎉🎉
Matt making fun of crocs only for Justin to immediately reveal his love of crocs was perfect
I'm surprised no one mentioned Melty Blood for 2 things:
1 - The Moon Styles in Actress Again is kind of a mixture of Grooves and Variations, as they change both system mechanics and special moves for each character
2 - It's a series known for having a duo character in Hisui & Kohaku (aka the maid twins)
Innovation for me was Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter's announcer screaming every super move when you win using them. Even to this day I still say "Shun Goku Satsu" in his voice when I finish a round with a Raging Demon. (That announcer needs to comeback for future Marvel Vs games)
I was super disappointed when the announcer in mvc2 didn't call out the super names :( But there were probably too many characters and supers for that to happen. It also is the reason why we didn't have character themes in MVC2.
Funny story: when I was a kid, me and my cousin used to play pretend Street Fighter and in that play we used to pretend to launch these huge hadoukens and stuff. That was before we found out about the versus games, so when I saw X-men vs Street Fighter for the first time it blew my mind when I saw Ryu using this huge ass hadouken that we used to do when we played pretend.
Thank you Justin, Matt, and Maximillian for this fun episode.
This walk down memory lane made me nostalgic so much so I took out my copy of Virtual Fighter2 and my Sega Saturn.
oh yes! Favorite podcast right here!
This podcast is a banger everytime
The rapport between the three of you guys really make this podcast great, every one is a good listen. Even if it's for fighters I have no knowledge on or don't care for.
would do an episode on fighting game rosters. The dos and donts of making a roster. what you need in a roster. ect?
32:43 Dude, I still have that M.U.G.E.N. build with this exact logo. I got it in like 2009, so before the actual MvC3 was even announced. It's still got some incredibly well-animated sprites like Thor and Sandman (I don't know who was the author of those, but think it's the same guy that made Deadpool and Wonder Woman, who are also in this build). Then it also has all the Super Saiyan SF characters like Shadow Lady and Evil Ryu, only they're turned to 15 compared to their MvC versions.
35:47 Oh yeah, DOA2 team attacks were dope. The characters were always arranged in columns, so you would know the character above or below you is your special team attacks. And then bonus ones you would figure out after playing the character's arcade mode and learning the lore.
40:34 What, going back to MK and no mention how it also had a "3D button" (even two) and then it also had multi-layered stages and instant-kill traps?
Personally, the biggest innovation is showing your moves on the pause screen. Going back to older games I've never tried and trying to guess or having to google the inputs made me appreciate move lists
Sega Channel had Eternal Champions on it basically all the time.
But Sega Channel was also literally a broadcast cable channel.
It was exactly like loading data from a one minute magnetic tape loop except all digital. The receiver could not send requests, it could only wait.
It worked exactly like the British Ceefax teletext news system but sending much more data per second.
Hey commenters! I love this show so much it's kind of hard finding fighting game fans and I'm so glad that these three are doing this. Not only are they huge fans of all my favorite games they have so much insight into the genre and the industry as a whole, they're also very funny! Thank you Justin, Matt and Max. Keep up the good work :-)
05:30 Didn't Smash Melee (2001~02) had a training mode where you could make the P2 character do simple actions or I'm remembering this wrong? I know you couldn't record actions like modern training modes but you could make the caracter jump or do simple attacks, I think.
You could set them to jump, walk, to become a player or to fight based on the CPU level you picked but I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 64 did it as well.
50:10 - Yeah, Noob-Smoke was the "Goro" of Deception. 👍
Bloody Roar had a transformation button, that also functioned as an additional attack button in beast mode.
Dead or Alive had a country button.
What was the country button
On re watching this (I may have mentioned this before) one of the biggest innovations for fighting games is the numerical method for move lists... I remember owning a strategy guide for some game and seeing notations like that for the first time and being confused... it's only when I next played Soul Calibur 2 that it made sense... because those games don't have a traditional jump (you hold Guard and tap up OR tap up and an attack simultaneously to jump) I could then imagine might character on a grid where each number was a direction. It made learning 8 way run a lot easier.
Snk definitely innovated by adding hundreds of animations for 4 buttons to compensate for lack of six buttons, context sensitive inputs and dual button presses for extra animations
51:00 Maids in MBTL do this too which is why their oki was crazy also they have compoud moves where you can plant a tree and the other can water it and it makes a big pressure tool! Also you have an active tag for them
Way of the Warrior with TAN CANVAS
Ok now we just need a episode just dedicated to Trainning/Practice/Trial Mode(s) id be down for that
Love the show I’m a life long hardcore casual haha
I learned the Cable Super Jump Hyper Viper Beam via the arcade knowledge exchange route here 7:43
24:36 Now I just want to see a victory pose of Chun Li smugly enjoying a bowl of Lucky Charms after defeating a leprechaun.
For innovation some games come to mind
Samurai Shodown-An early weapons-based fighter that does what Art of Fighting did but better, being a slower more methodical fighter where every hit matters. It also is an early example of a revenge mechanic, pretty sure it's not the first to include getting stronger as you lose health but probably the first to tie it to a specific meter.
Bushido Blade-Innovated in that it had the more realistic combat like how individual body parts can be harmed or you can be killed in one shot. Haven't played much of it myself but I would experience similar gameplay ideas in the Deadliest Warrior games on PS3/360
Darkstalkers- Things like air blocking and ex attacks
Virtua Fighter 4 had he best training mode. A lot of ppl didnt know about or forget how innovate that training mode was, it got watered down in the later console releases and they honestly havent done it since. CVS2 was the first game I remember having record function on the game.
Tmnt tournament fighters will be online in 12 days 😁
I've been bringing up ping/connection indicators for probably the past 8 years or so. PC benchmark tests also shouldn't be too much to ask for if people are going to play in ranked matches. If you want to be competitive making sure your game runs properly should be step 1.
My mind was blown when NRS actually committed to it in MK11 and major props to them for it
You guys missed the Declaration of Victory :D
For me, biggest innovation was Arcade perfect ports of fighting game's arriving on portable gaming systems. ☺️
Not sure if they count as innovations, but whatever game started the "Burst" mechanic that you see in games like Guilty Gear and Blazblue, along with Roman/Rapid Cancels in those same games, seem like very unique mechanics that will probably catch on at least in the Indie scene more as those series grow in popularity.
I'm not sure if this is what they did for Mortal Kombat, but for classic Doom they basically made their digitized sprites greyscale, then manually recolored them. That way they have much a much smoother color palette than taking whatever the camera spit out.
Triple KO is the best innovation in FG
I feel like training mode is the biggest innovation. Literally all of the tech that we want to use in our game play was created in a type of "training mode". I consider things like Justin using the rubber band to make the other controller hold down block in order for him to practice stuff as training mode. Such a huge creation for fighting games.
Im wondering if they're interested in talking about modded fighting games. After seeing Justin play that 4th strike mod it'd be interesting to hear their thoughts on how these things affected the original scene and meta the modded games were based on. Project M, Smash Remix, that Godzilla save the earth melee mod, the new characters people are adding to umvc3, shit even that sailor moon fighter got modded I think. I'd love to see them talk about it!
Talk about the concept artists already!
Samurai showdown 3 had Slash or Bust style for each character
I played an n64 fighting game that you could go into training mode,customize the ai, and it also had an adaptive difficulty that would learn your inputs and get harder and harder to get better with you in real time like a human would.
Can't forget about Battle Fantasia for influencing the 2.5d gameplay on the taito type x
Footsies is a completely different concept when you can whiff attacks for meter.
Speaking of MK and the block button, did anyone else have an issue with MK 2 on the Super Nintendo where the block button just didn't work on P2? The controller was fine, but it just didn't let P2 block
i remember rigging my player 2 n64 controller to practice combos in mortal kombat trilogy
When whiffing normals for meter, who else remembers the Wolviecopter in the older Vs. games? Super jump, MP MP MP MP MP as fast as possible.
Biggest innovation was the six button controller 🎮 in the arcades and home consoles.
I miss the two big
Button Kick and Punch bang system on Street Fighter. Haha
Also, I owned the Sega Genesis 6-Button Controller.
Training Modes definitely started with 2D fighters, and I'm talking early to mid 90s like 94/95. Started in Generation 5. I clearly remember them in the Alpha series alone.
surely it’s rollback netcode?
lol I remember that rumble fish 2 cab in CF. as a non fighting game player I put a few rounds in from time to time because it meant that I got to play till I lost instead of until someone else played next to me. Also I didn't even see footage of the game trolling japanese sites at the time so it was super interesting.
So i thought for the longest time that in MvC 1 you could do an input followed by the swap buttons and it would make your other character do an MvC 2 style assist but because of the input you could pick which one would happen.
YERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Which SF invented EX attacks? I think having alternate ways to spend meter was pretty huge
I think it was actually Darkstalkers 3/Vampire saviour.
Believe it or not I think SF the Movie the game (The PS1/Saturn versions) get the credit for that. That was definitely the first SF game I remember having EX moves. That game came out in 1995.
You gotta block + down/back to prevent throws in old mk. Straight down does not prevent throws
What was the first game to dash cancel ?
I spent days trying to teach my older bro bow to haduken and shoruken as a kid lmao
I know Last Bronx had a training/practice mode. Not sure if that predates any other 3D fighter being released in 97
I think 8 Way Run is probably one of the best innovations for 3D fighters. Like Matt said, everything else just feels like shit movement-wise until I play Soul Calibur again. It's just a shame that SC had to go out the way it did.
That is soo true
Wild question that I'd like some experienced perspective on: What do you think would happen to the meta of a fighting game if you removed all crouching pokes?
Not all crouching attacks. You could still do a dedicated sweep attack, and you could still do a crouching block, but low attacks would be executed from a standing position and taking a powerful mid while in a crouching block position would cause you to stumble backwards (basically, exactly what would happen in real life).
Theoretically, do you think that would make a game more or less dependent on footsies?
(This is part of research for a fighting game prototype I'm designing.)
Tekken is kinda like that, the way it works is that you block highs and mids while standing and you react to lows by crouching, but while you're crouching you can't block mids.
But tbh the whole crouching low attack is just an animation thing, most games make crouching kicks a low for clarity/tradition, and even then they're not always like that.
Makoto's cr. mk is a mid, same with Mika, while Sagat's foward+mk is a low in V.
Function wise, in SF at least, lows are all about controlling movement, since you can't block them while walking away,
if you got pushed back far away every time you blocked a mid while crouching in a SF-like game, it would be really annoying since lows and mids aren't reactable and people wouldn't want to take the risk of getting hit with a low while stand blocking. Either that or lows/mids would have to be nerfed, either by making lows more stubby, super slow like current overheads, or very unsafe, but at that point you're just becoming Tekken anyway.
Ok I kinda want a Capcom VS Cereal Mascot Allstars game now. Please make that a thing.
Rumble Fish doesn't have 3D character models...
I guess be technicality the last Capcom game with something like a groove system is USF4 with Version select
I know MVC & MVC2 especially are highly regarded today. But my friends and I never thought they were any good. And I think it was due to the area we grew up. No arcades existed and we just had it on dreamcast. And what seemed strong to us was just shooting projectiles at each other. No frame of reference to how the game should be played. But I also think even if we understood it would not have helped any. At all.
It scarred us to this day. Once we found Tekken that was our fighting game of choice because it had no projectiles. While I will dabble in some MK or SF, my other friends won't play anything else with me but Tekken. When we play Tekken 7 Akuma and Geese are house rule banned and using your rage art is considered laming your opponent out. That is the evolutionary effect MVC had on some folks.
Street Fighter 1 was supposed to have 6 buttons, but higher ups at Capcom thought it would confuse players.
I would consider SF Rainbow Edition being innovative for inspiring faster Gameplay and making the game go crazy with special moves.
Among the things that I thought were innovative, which wasn't mentioned, are the games where you can also "jump" down. I don't know which fighting game did it first, but I first encountered it in Touhou 15.5 and I was sold on it.
In order to jump down you have to either be flying/floating or have another plane below the main/neutral one.
Touhou 15.5 did the former.
I can see Matt and maybe Justin being interested in playing that game (too “weeb” for Max).
@@killerb255 (True enough. Though, maybe if the "jump down" mechanic was sold alongside the tag team aspect, perhaps there would be a sliver of a chance that Max would try it out, like he did "Melty Hearts." )
Shadow AI in Killer instinct was great....and something that if expanded on in other games could be amazing, I think something similar was in a virtua fighter game to.
KI wasn't the first to do this. IIRC, I think VF4E had the first "pro AI" in their game, which was programmed to be similar to tournament winners. But Tekken 5 DR was the first to have custom "ghosts" in their game. You could even save your friends' ghosts so you can train against them when they're not present. I'm saddened they got rid of this in T7, and hope they bring it back in T8. Ngl, I would like it in every FG.
I literally bought an Xbox-Series-X and Game Pass just to have 2013 KI. I love that game sooooooooo much and I had to have it. Loving it and learning so much. I remember back in the 90's when there was such as a thing as Coliseum Mall in Hampton Virginia and at the Tilt Arcade when they got the original Killer Instinct in. I was floored when I saw that game.
Best duo character is chili and pepper from battle monster for the Sega Saturn
grooves are underrated
Soul Caliber innovated defense mechanics with the repel (forward +Guard) and parry (back+guard), DOA innovated with the 8 way hold systems, and then how innovated a lot of 3D arenas. DoA 1 and DoA 2 are night and day. DOA has innovated its gameplay with Tag throws, stage/arena interaction way before any other game did. Tekken tried it in 4 but people hated it but only coz Namco did it badly, Tekken Tag 2, 6 & 7 got it down somewhat but DOA deserves a lot of credit for pushing things with 3D fighters. The game industry also owes it for creating boob physics LOL!!!!
Max is right about Tekken TAG. On PS2, it looks so good! In arcade, it looks like Tekken 3 graphics. For me, that’s when arcades died. Literally no reason to go there anymore after that
I still remember being so gutted cause in the UK RE Outbreak didn't have online functionality but the sequel did, but it still wasn't till I got a PS3 that I was finally able to play online console games and the fucking servers got shutdown mid my first ever session with it :,)
I feel like the early Dragonball arcade fighters had a lot of innovations, can't remember what though :)
In TMNT Tournament Fighters, isn't it the case that many supers do more damage on block than on hit?
I'm troublely sorry I can't find a Pm you Justin or respond to your replay maybe I'm just dumb and I'm missing it. I'm not sure whats up
Idea for a great discussion. Best fighting game based on being a RIP off of another fighting game! Would love to know your thoughts on that.
No mention of melty for the groove system seriously??? how has no one in triple KO not played mbaacc...
gonna dickride my favorite fighting game a little bit, but mbaacc is one of if not the most polished fighting games ever to be made.
What if you could make a game out of any existing property. Similar to how DNF Duel took a non fighting game and turned it fighting. Any show, movie, game whatever
I remember when I lived in San Diego and I'd take the kid's to "Family Fun Center is now BOOMER'S" and up the road, Nickle City, I'd put tokens in the second player side just so I could practice in fighting game's. Cheesy, I know. 🤓
Okay, does anyone remember years before the Wii even existed there being a fighting game, it might have even been Tekken where you stand a platform and you can actually throw punches and kicks and duck and stuff? I have this memory of visiting the amusement park inside West Edmonton Mall, and they had it set up in their arcade. It was such a cool concept but was sooooo janky. Had to be mid-90s.
I also have played this but mine was at playdium. The game was mortal kombat(trilogy?) from what i remembered. Funny enough as a kid knowing the motion inputs, i was ducking then leaning forward and throwing a punch and was freezing everyone because it was hard to stop as jumping forward meant you actually had to JUMP a bit forward. It was definitely janky to say the least.
@@AEfernal Yeah! That sounds super familiar! Maybe it was an add-on for fighting game cabinets or something?
💎
this video was the perfect oportunity to talk about a lot of hidden games that tried weird and innovative shit, but then max start with the same 5 games he always talk about (the vs series, the sf's, KI, VF, MK, etc). It gets boring fast. Someone could have mention the Asuka 120% series, the game that inspired Guilty gear and a lot of anime fighters. The specific tag zone fighter of kizuna encounter, the bushido blades, the slash and burst systems of Samsho 3, the multi-grab system of Tobal 2, the musical combos of slap rhythm busters, the creepy tag fighter groove on fight where you can attack with the dead body of your partner, the flying telekinesis combat of Psychic force, etc
Yeah but ya know those games you mentioned not a lot of people of played course was because Fighting games was over saturated at that point and those 5 games were the MOST popular and the ones you mentioned didn't had a following so yeah that's why they didn't mention it. You can hop into Max and/or Justin stream to tell them to start talking about it.
Bruhh nobody played those games
Max's tastes and thoughts can be too mainstream for some topics. If he ever does end up playing something niche, it's usually part of YoVideogames where they just play a bunch of random games in a marathon and don't really think about them ever again.
@@professorpuzzle3463 Yeah it's pretty much a big problem with a lot of mainstream gamers in general is that they all follow on franchises they grew up with and popular IPS that everyone knows and talks about, all niche games/franchises don't get a lot of love or people don't try to see the innovations of the game as they play it for maybe 3 hours and move on to something else.
Some mainstream gamers would like to talk about something different and niche but are afraid it won't get a lot of attention and interests due to youtube's algorithm and audience interest.
You guys do understand that games are expensive right? They cant just buy every single game so of course the mainstream ones are talked about besides all those niche games you all mention are pretty wack
I know nothing about fighting games, this is purely for algorithm boosting.
"...Playing Virtua Fighter 2, on the Genesis, on the Sega Channel.." Yep, that is a tough wank.
49:22 LOL
Don't feel bad Matt, Marvel 2 was when it became too much me as well.
For me KI 2013 is it.
Elden Ring for introducing SNK to the dodge roll
that would be tekken
Fortnite for introducing the Ryu to Capcom
Block Buttons in fighting games is a sin.
JoJo's Bizarre Adventures on the Dreamcast had online play. I am disappointed that Matt didn't know that. Araki is sad now.