Its amazing to hear a man of faith be so honest and unflinching in his account of the dark side of religion. Too many Christians want to pretend it doesn't exist. The world desparately needs more of this kind of honesty.
After spending a lifetime listening to hundreds of church sermons explaining how to live life based on some specific Bible verse along with a fair amount of sophistry, it's nice to get a breath of fresh air and hear a speaker who can clarify things into undeniable wisdom. That man is Bishop John Spong.
Yes, Bishop Spong is indeed a rare jewel and stand out among his peers of todays's clergy, and a great voice for humanity too soon claimed and silenced by death.
@@Dishodiwaba . I don't know what he would say to you about that but I agree with him on everything except God in Jesus being a good thing so, I would take what you said as a compliment. You stay with the bigots and the racists and The godly people. We will love them and help them when they flee from you. And they are - in droves.
How then do you manage to live and get along in a largely Christian world and among Christian friends or are you a Mus!im, Allah, be praised!? Living among Muslim brothers in Arabia or India?
How wonderfully comfortting it must be to have a mind so small that it doesn't have room to recognize that it is possible to "believe" while at the same time questioning and examining those beliefs. The N.T. was written in an attempt to make god understandable to First Century people who, because they knew nothing of germs, decided that if one was a leper it was because god was punishing him. Bishop Spongs new interpretations of the Bible in light of modern science are refreshing and spot on.
Hey Chip, your statement is exactly the same thing I said about Jerry Falwell over 40 years ago. The irony is that as a teenager I had the extraordinary experience of living in a place and time where I had personal interaction with both Mr. Falwell (my mother was a charter member of his church) and Mr.Spong (I became a member of his parish) and I can tell you with complete certainty that John Spong is a fully realized spirit that speaks the truth. Nothing dangerous about it unless you are fearful of discovering the magnificent spirit that you are in essence. Should you prefer to continue living in fear (of ideas and/or everything) then the life denying legacy of Mr. Falwell's ideas would be the way to go.
@@JorgeMartinez-pn7gh . Anyone who has taken advantage of the ignorance and the desperation of people the way Jerry Falwell did, is not irrelevant. He's dangerous.
I enjoyed learning from Bishop Spong that after we get rid of the Terrrible Texts of the Bible, the ones used along history to justify so much cruelty, injustice and oppression, we can focus on the texts that reflect the Love of God.He `s an eloquent, dynamic, informed and persuasive speaker.
I wish I had this guys literature when I was a christian. It may have helped rescue me from a lot of waisted time and effort. how much support does this guy get amongst christians nowadays?
Why is it important to you that Bishop Spong have the support of many? Do you appreciate quantity more than quality of content? Do you go by popularity as your gauge of faith?
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy. He does not mean we have to give up Christ or God, but that we have to take our egos out of the picture.
i actually really like this guy - he isn't like most evangelists/apologists like bill craig and frank turek - basically politicians or defence attorneys for christianity - this guy is real.
John Shelby Spong has given me the words, the confidence, the clarity, to finally articulate what I have truly come to believe these past 4 years of questioning. I am at peace with my existence, I am overflowing with love and appreciation of the depth of humanity, and I accept the gift of logic and reason and rationality that my creator has given me. I can finally live a genuine, rich life. Thank you Bishop Spong.
"The Sins of Scripture challenges Christians to look beyond the myths of their faith into the heart of the matter. To some the book will be heresy, to others revelation. But above all it will make people think, which is just what Bishop Spong means to achieve." -Bill O'Reilly
If religion has caused such strife worldwide for so long,does it not behoove us to see that it is not the true way of love, nor the true way of God? Can we not witness His own truths?
If the Church was like this I would gladly go back :) This man is an honest True God faring Man and I could listen to him all day. Thank you John Shelby Spong
I removed my comment because to many people could not grasp the understanding of this situation. So rather than bring nonbelievers into the conflicts within the body, I decided to stop trying to explain things to those who do not have the common foundational understanding of Scripture. I apologize if I have offended anyone; however, I stand my my beliefs.
This man serves God by trying to make a world in which everyone can be loved, even those who don't seem deserving of it (Luke 6:27-29). I don't think one has to believe in a hell to get saved, that just produces more negativity in our developement as human beings. Rather, one must believe in the Kingdom of Heaven which our Lord said is within us (Luke 17:20-21). We must work very hard to produce the Kingdom from within us to a Kingdom around us (Matt. 13:33).
You are right, bro. Hell is what create for ourselves and no out side place of torment nor do we need to be saved for we were never lost as if God would allow that for his children.
I’m watching this from Australia and I can tell you the climate here has changed since this was recorded. We are currently suffering from the cold and rain and not the heat. Last three years the La Niña has been bringing the rains. We have just had crops wrecked by rain.
Uh, Bro. Willow, in spite of the natural calamities your land has been suffering under, dont let yourself become a weeping willow But instead be steadfast in your faith and accept that what is happening is part of natural law and you just have to ride with it.
@@conradbulos6164 four years la Nina now although the BOM is still saying it's a freaky el Nino. Probably too scared to say it's gotten colder not hotter. Only trouble is we haven't had many bushfires 🤣. It must be so frustrating for them. They have been hunting fires. There is one in VIC but the conspiracy theorist in me thinks it's deliberate because it's near farming land and I know those places burn off a lot and it can get out of hand etc. just do happens to be in a socialist state🤣. But houses have been lost which is always sad. I'm sick of the rain here though. The tropics are getting hammered by rain. Hope you son's not gone up there. Cairns and Tully area in Qld. But hey it happens up there.
@@conradbulos6164 where is he. No I haven't heard of people getting sick in the rain. Flooding is another matter. Lots of germs in the soil and they get moved around. Best to stay away. I'm near Sydney. It's not too bad flood wise here just wet.
I think Spong is right on...and I think he gives a good point towards the end that it's really not productive to try to have a "conversation" with a fundamentalist that already has decided that their point of view is correct and therefore in line with God. By the comments/debates I see here, I think he is right. I'm giving up having "conversations" with such people. I wasted too many hours of my life. I'd rather spend my time learning how in my faith I can help improve the world around me.
I just noticed your reply, thank you. The orthodox teaching is that God predestines those for salvation, gives them faith to believe, regenerates them to salvation, seals them with the Holy Spirit, all because of the work of Christ. Liberal Christianity bypasses all of this and states by being good one may have a type of salvation from evil by their own will, but does not consider we are born dead to God and children of wrath with no good in us. We need Christ for salvation.
Uh, Andante, your name reminds me of a joke about a girl giving in to seduction tells her !over as she takes off her panties, she cries, No Andantes, I want it allegro con brio! That said, what Bishop Spong is saying is Christ did not come to "save" us but that we may life and have it abundantly. It's a new and different kind of life Jesus was talking about. It's a transcendent life beyond the ordinary physical life but a life more fully lived and experienced abundantly!
Predination is not in God's vocabulary. Tha's why (He) gave us Freewill, the complete, absolute, unlimited and unconditional freedom to do as we wish without negative consequences except the operation of natural law which he set in place to govern the universe (He) created out of nothing.
Furthermore, as God's children begotten in His image and like ness( not created from clay as Genesis teaches) we never lost our place in heaven so salvation is not necessary and Christ is there to remind us who we are not to "save" us but to awaken us.
The main thing is that Jesus Christ is our saviour and i know and love him with all my heart and i thank God for revealing Jesus to me. God Bless had a bible study tonight with my close friends and my bro we read Mark 5:1-43.. Amazing.
Uh, Sister Wils, you,ve not been listning to Bishop Spong. He's been saying that Jesus did not come to save us from original sin cuz he doesnt believe in the Fall. He quotes Jesus as saying, "I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly"
Spong is offering a suggestion of what the coming of Christ was about. Jesus didn't represent any of the destructive scriptures in the bible. His message was to be able to walk with your neighbor with love and acceptance no matter what race, religion, or sexual orientation they are. Spong is explaining how complex the bible is and the way that it is transcending through time. You experience god when you experience a source of love. I LOVE Spong!
+Billy de bianchi HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR - WERE YOU ALSO DROOLING WHEN YOU WROTE YOUR POST? TELL ME SHITLOCK HOLMES, WHY DO YOU THINK I CALL THE LORD GOD JEHOVAH? WHERE DID YOU GET YAHWOWMAWPOWZOW FROM, GRAFFI FROM THE WALLS OF THE PROJECT YOU LIVE IN?
And, btw, the "evil" mentioned in Isa 45 is speaking of "natural evil" (hurricanes, storms, mighty winds-natural disasters), as the context of the verse explains quite clearly. That is why most translations render the word "calamity" (See ESV, NKJV, NASB, NLT, HCSB, MSG). But good though, look for another verse that describes God's lodrship amd mastery over evil and how he uses it to the praise of His glory (they're there).
Mr. Spong has articulated the truthfulness of the immorality of faith belief in a way that has never been told ever before. His speech was amazingly forthcoming and enlightening. He's a great thinker and a tremendous human being.
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST . . . "Love God with all your heart and all your mind; love your neighbor as yourself." This is EXACTLY what Spong is preaching.
Uh, Rocky, any command is abhorrent and repulsive to human nature even the command to love and even coming from Jesus. Maybe we should start saying instead.....It would be wiser to love God ........
I believe he spoke very well without getting into mystical teachings on the inner esoteric meaning of Yahushua (Jesus) message. Very thought provoking!
Thank you for acknowledging and addressing some of the points that atheists and other critics have rightly leveled at religion and more particularly the Bible. Human capacity for reason may be used for deducing that some ideas cannot possibly be true, and the hope is offered that religion might be moderated or improved. However, the burden of proof still rests on one who asserts that some sort of god actually exists.
Yes, Sgrannel, A God exists but who is outside the bible and not one who intervenes in human history out of respect for his gift of Freewill to mankind. He is the God of Christianity who speaks of love and compassion and mercy not the God of Christianity who advocates violence and revenge and cruelty.
i think that you have a point. and yet it is unquestionable that this is a very learned man. He is picking at the bible very intelligently and comparing it to our modern day secular beliefs. I think that he's right about many many things that he speaks of. God gave us a brain to reason with and his word to think about. Don't take anything to be true from first hearing.
What is quite interesting to me is how those who believe in Inclusion or Universalism when someone does not agree with them, they do not condemn those that disagree with them. However, if you disagree with someone who believes in fundamentalism, they DO NOT HESITATE to let you know that you are hellbound unless you repent and embrace their doctrine. Wouldn't that pose some concerns to those of us who call ourselves "Christians"?
Had my first pastor at the age of 21 been like this man, I would not have had the troubles I had in religion for four decades. He is confessing what hundreds of people in my past so desperately denied and tried to explain away instead of just simply and honestly confessing it. this leads me to believe that most religious people including the clergy are dishonest. "Thank you Mr. Spong."
@@conradbulos6164no, I'm convinced it's dishonesty. I knew the first time I read Genesis when I was 21 that God or the god of the Old Testament was evil. I did the "God is always right dance for years", not realizing what I was doing to my family end my own dignity. I always question within myself, how God could be right when he's so wrong about so many things. I don't wonder anymore. Those books were written by men, not women, not minorities, men in power. Religion is how they kept power.
I love the part in Mark 5:9-13, when Jesus was ready to have a conversation with Legion. It's funny how Jesus doesn't send the demons straight to hell, but he takes compassion on them and grants their request to go into pigs. Most exorcists, like John Constantine, are ready to have a brawl with their demon apponent, but Jesus did no such thing, he's one of a kind!! God Bless!!!
Dear Bishop Spong, wherever you are, please know that you will be missed. You gave us the real meaning of Christianity and made us see Jesus in a new light and that we owe Judaism a deep sense of gratitude for being the spritual Mother of Christianity
I'm glad you brought up 1 Cor 2:6-16. Although it is partly Pauline in theology, it also goes into perfect accordance with Jesus' teachings in the Gospels also. St. Paul speaks of a hidden wisdom that is revealed not by the spirit of this age, but by the Holy Spirit. The Pauline epistles were written before the Gospels, so there was obviously a young oral "tradition" that had remained untouched by redactors until the second century (right after the time John was written).
Until the tenth decade when John qrote his Gospel. Yes, Paul wrote his epistles from the young oral tradition later earlier than the Gospel writers by decades and should have been placed first ahead of the gospels in the printed bible for proper chronology and better religious perspective.
If you are going to quote romans 1:23 at least remember to who Paul is writing and what he says in 1:21 "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." 1:23 is clearly talking about those described in 1:21. This means you have to claim that people who see God as loving, don't worship and don't give thanks. You can quote mine all you want, but it isn't working without context.
Like most Mainline churches..have watered down the Gospel,allowed detestable things to enter and serve as ministers......so much has changed from the first century...listening to this guy.......He is Lukewarm at best and Jesus will spue him out of His mouth....
Well, one thing we have to understand is that being spiritual, or religious, ain't just about being "good." It is rather about transformation of heart, soul, and mind. This is something you can find in almost every religious tradition. What does it matter to be on the left or the right?
We can know that the Book of Ezekiel had been written by Ezekiel himself because he speaks in first person, although the authorship of Ezekiel is also questioned by some skeptics. Since all the books of the Septuagint lack pedigree (a mention of the actual writter from which they derived), we cannot know for sure who the actual compiler was; whether it be one person or a number of people.
I like Spong's point that the bible can be seen to move from one conception of reality/God/humanity to another (I think it starts about minute 47). If we see our holy scripture as a static set of rules then we might just turn out to be that kind of Christian. However, if we view the whole of scripture as dynamic, a living, growing tradition, then we may open our own hearts and minds to such growth. The Spirit moves.
As usual, I agree with the late Reverend Spong; it must surely be the unforgiveable sin, to claim to be the Chosen, for it denies the Sacred Spirit in all.
Also, in that verse, submit does not mean what it has come to mean in our western society. It in no way means subserviant. We all must submit to some authority. My boss is younger than me and has less experience in actual practice than I do, but I submit to him as he is in authority over me and I like getting a paycheck, but that does not mean that in life I'm not his equal. In marriage, a wife and husband are partners, but the husband has the final vote. He should take his wife's council, tho.
I wish I lived closer to him. I would go see him as often as I could! He definitely restored my faith in the reason of the Bible... His desire is bring common sense back to the Christian arena... but as he says its been in short supply for quite some time.
You also stated, "Joshua was also given authority to write Scripture, and most likely wrote Joshua and the end of Deuteronomy (Joshua 24:26)" Exactly!! This proves my point that Moses didn't write the WHOLE of the Torah, the Five Books (The Pentateuch).
In this same chapter, St. Matthias was selected to take Judas Iscariot's place, but St. Luke makes no mention of the Apostles' approving of St. James as a "pillar" of the Jerusalem Church. Paul already mentions that St. James was a prominent figure in Galatians 2:9 and 12. 1 Corithians 15:7 also mentions that Jesus appeared to St. James. It's funny how Paul doesn't mention the women that Jesus appeared to, but this is probably his patriarchal standing point already in action.
Two questions: One, was Jesus a Christian? Two, what do you more nearly believe is the fundamental nature of Christian scripture -- the infallible, inerrant word of God, totality of revelation? or the testimonies of people of faith as they relate to and describe their experiences of God?
Yeah, I also noticed some misunderstandings, but these actually make you think of how certain quotations of the bible can be misinterpreted...badly misinterpreted. For example, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." That quote has been used by christians to enhance persecutions of "infidels" throughout history. Bishop Spong most likely makes deliberate misunderstandings to drive a point across. Many spiritual teachers go to extremes to drive certain points.
Thank you sir for your reply. Yes, I believe that liberal christianity finds no need for the sacrfice of Christ, so we may save ourselves. It is a system whereby mankind is autonomous and makes his own rules as he sees fit. I on the otherhand consider Christ my Lord over me, and my creator in whom is all authority. This means I hold the bible as the sole provider for the teachings of salvation.
without a doubt, great talk! even for the person who studied 10 years in eastern orthodox gymnasium, it is a fascinating lecture, with lots of humor and precious words
I got farther along in the book of his I was reading and I saw that he actually didn't think low of the Bible, but had a lot of appreciation for it. I started to think the historical backgrounds of some of the scriptures as pretty cool. Also, when I got to the chapter on the so-called New Testament, everything there made too much sense. There might be some christian apologists who might have good arguments against Spong, but I haven't heard of them. To be honest, I haven't looked.
I haven't read Sam Harris' book, but I've seen some of his interviews and lectures. I've also seen a lot of films of Christopher Hitchens. They are pretty harsh, but Spong isn't any bit more gentle than they are.
This world is seriously lacking sensible voices like Bishop Spong. I think the church has destroyed itself long enough. It is time to begin a movement of healing. If more of us would speak up then we could probably have avoided the meaningless war we are in.
He talks about a new consciousness always winning against an old definition. What guarantees that this new consciousness is correct or that it is something that God desires?
I would like to ask Mr. Spong if he believes Jesus said “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14). He'll probably say no, because it contradicts what he is teaching.
Women were treated that way long before the Jewish faith came about. Slavery was also a different animal back then. Spartacus, an escaped slave from Rome, also owned slaves. What the Bible does is show individuals and the whole of humanity, warts and all. It's an honest portrayal of us. Polygomy is one example of that. No where in Scripture does it say that's fine. It presents it as a reality of the time. Same with slavery, just giving guidance for Christians on either side of that life.
I would not go back, BUT I certainly would've stayed far longer :) . Mr. Spong strikes me as a very good man, exemplary even. I think lots of people, religious or not, could learn much from someone like him.
@tumbleweeeeeed I couldn't agree more. Whenever I hear Spong speaking he always reminds me of the snakey charcter in the garden of Eden story, and conversely, when I read that very true story, I can always see the 'bishop''s face with the mouth opening and the darting tongue slithering out, 'Yea, hath God said?.....
When we read God's name within chapter 1 in Hebrew, it is pronounced 'Elohim'. When we read his name in chapter 2, it is pronounced 'Yahweh'. In Hebrew, "elohim" is a pleuralized word and can be translated as "Gods". The writter of the first chapter should have used the singular word "'elowahh" if God were viewed as monotheistic. But the later document corrects that usage by using the Tetragrammaton (YHWH).
@AR333 Good post. Out of interest though, what is your personal position? You seem to have made a decent case that christians ought to start from a more neutral, non-theistic (either deistic or atheistic) position regarding spiritual truth and only accept jesus/yahweh/the bible if what they find fits, was that your intention? Considering the rather dodgy origins of the NT canon (and their lack of historical reliability) would we not be better off discarding the book altogether?
I think it's funny how we as Christians look at how Paul and Leviticus wrote about how to keep slaves, or that a woman should never hold authority over a man, or that a father can sell his daughter into slavery, or that a child can be stoned to death for being unruly, we simply dismiss it as the ignorance of the age in which they lived. Yet when it comes to homosexuality, suddenly they are the unquestionable authorities on what is moral and just in the eyes of God.
And yet, conservative scholarship fails to produce any hard evidence saying that the authorship of Moses and Joshua of the Torah is undisputed because later books like Joshua (after the composition of J and E), 2 Kings (561-538 BC), Chronicals (450-435 BC), Ezra (456 BC), and Nehemiah (431 - 430 BC). These books make no mention of the specific names of books in the Torah, but they only refer to the Law of Moses.
While I am on the more conservative/fundamentalist side of the spectrum, and would say that what Spong espouses is not Christianity, it's sad that so many (though there are more of us than you'd think) on my side of the spectrum inadvertantly view Christianity as a "check-your-brain-at-the-door" faith. God calls us to love Him with all our heart soul and MIND, and I feel that to do so means actually studying and knowing what we believe.
Thank you for the answers. It's nice to see someone reasonable and intelligent on these kind of videos. I also disagree with Spong on some of his points, but I do appreciate different opinions as long as they are backed up by reasonable arguments.
Gen 1 does not say that Man and woman was made simultaneously, but simply asserts that God created them both in His image, without going into detail. Gen 2 provides that detail, where we see man was made first, then woman (Paul confirms to this in his epistle to Timothy)
Your god and my God are obviously different. The main difference being that your god is one created by you. You give life to your god, but when you die, so will he and so he is not able to save. The Holy Spirit says that my God is mighty to save bc He forever lives to make intercession for us. His existence can be traced back from everlasting to everlasting. When I'm dead and gone He and His Word will remain. You choose which man-made deity you will follow. As for me, I will serve the Lord.
Now is the time for all people to not be necessarily "Christian" but be Christlike. I have a news flash: God is not a Christian. Nor a Hindu, Buddhist, etc. We, as believers, have the opportunity to give birth to a new Christianity. One that is inclusive, accepting and honors the great traditions of the church through the ages. Our time is at hand. We can't fear fundamentalism. Our world is crying out for what we as believers in a loving God can give. Let's be true to God and His love for ALL.
1. He sees Genesis 1 and 2 as contradictory-they aren't. Well, that depends on how you read Genesis 1 and 2. Can you tell me how you view them and their compatibility? I would like here a conservative point of view.
You also said, "Luke's gospel was written before Timothy, bc Paul quotes from it and calls it 'Scripture' " First of all, please note which epistle to Timothy you are referring to. But then again, both epistles are considered pseudepigraphic and probably not written by Paul, but someone who knew him. If you are refering to 2 Timothy, then you would be correct because this epistle was written in the 2 century, Luke was written in 85 C.E.
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Its amazing to hear a man of faith be so honest and unflinching in his account of the dark side of religion. Too many Christians want to pretend it doesn't exist.
The world desparately needs more of this kind of honesty.
“Scripture is a human creation by people who was seeking God but their humanity constantly got in the way.” - Bishop John Spong
Just a quick message ...John Shelby Spong has renewed my faith in Christianity. I SO admire this man!
Rod O'Brien the same, returned to it just thanks to him
That's nice to hear.
What he taught wasn't Christianity.
After spending a lifetime listening to hundreds of church sermons explaining how to live life based on some specific Bible verse along with a fair amount of sophistry, it's nice to get a breath of fresh air and hear a speaker who can clarify things into undeniable wisdom. That man is Bishop John Spong.
Daniel Evjen -- Spong appeals to listeners who are not afraid to think for themselves -- what a concept!
👍
Yes, Bishop Spong is indeed a rare jewel and stand out among his peers of todays's clergy, and a great voice for humanity too soon claimed and silenced by death.
I am not a christian but I can easy relate to Mr Spong's lecture, greatly appreciate his commonsense approach, makes one THINK
Yes, and you share something in common: neither of you is Christian.
@@Dishodiwaba .
I don't know what he would say to you about that but I agree with him on everything except God in Jesus being a good thing so, I would take what you said as a compliment.
You stay with the bigots and the racists and The godly people. We will love them and help them when they flee from you. And they are - in droves.
Not being a Christian
How then do you manage to live and get along in a largely Christian world and among Christian friends or are you a Mus!im, Allah, be praised!? Living among Muslim brothers in Arabia or India?
How wonderfully comfortting it must be to have a mind so small that it doesn't have room to recognize that it is possible to "believe" while at the same time questioning and examining those beliefs. The N.T. was written in an attempt to make god understandable to First Century people who, because they knew nothing of germs, decided that if one was a leper it was because god was punishing him.
Bishop Spongs new interpretations of the Bible in light of modern science are refreshing and spot on.
Why do you have the letter G in small letter of your god like He was not the God you believe in but others believe in?
Hey Chip, your statement is exactly the same thing I said about Jerry Falwell over 40 years ago. The irony is that as a teenager I had the extraordinary experience of living in a place and time where I had personal interaction with both Mr. Falwell (my mother was a charter member of his church) and Mr.Spong (I became a member of his parish) and I can tell you with complete certainty that John Spong is a fully realized spirit that speaks the truth. Nothing dangerous about it unless you are fearful of discovering the magnificent spirit that you are in essence. Should you prefer to continue living in fear (of ideas and/or everything) then the life denying legacy of Mr. Falwell's ideas would be the way to go.
Oh good Lord!
Jerry Falwell and his congregation were misinformed, misdirected and so far off course as to be totally irrelevant
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@@crusaderking5387
Which Lord?
@@JorgeMartinez-pn7gh . Anyone who has taken advantage of the ignorance and the desperation of people the way Jerry Falwell did, is not irrelevant. He's dangerous.
I enjoyed learning from Bishop Spong that after we get rid of the Terrrible Texts of the Bible, the ones used along history to justify so much cruelty, injustice and oppression, we can focus on the texts that reflect the Love of God.He `s an eloquent, dynamic, informed and persuasive speaker.
Incredible! This man talks so much sense. I wish the whole world thought like he does!
I wish I had this guys literature when I was a christian. It may have helped rescue me from a lot of waisted time and effort. how much support does this guy get amongst christians nowadays?
Why is it important to you that Bishop Spong have the support of many? Do you appreciate quantity more than quality of content? Do you go by popularity as your gauge of faith?
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy. He does not mean we have to give up Christ or God, but that we have to take our egos out of the picture.
i actually really like this guy - he isn't like most evangelists/apologists like bill craig and frank turek - basically politicians or defence attorneys for christianity - this guy is real.
This is worth watching several times. Great truth. thank you
John Shelby Spong has given me the words, the confidence, the clarity, to finally articulate what I have truly come to believe these past 4 years of questioning. I am at peace with my existence, I am overflowing with love and appreciation of the depth of humanity, and I accept the gift of logic and reason and rationality that my creator has given me. I can finally live a genuine, rich life. Thank you Bishop Spong.
"The Sins of Scripture challenges Christians to look beyond the myths of their faith into the heart of the matter. To some the book will be heresy, to others revelation. But above all it will make people think, which is just what Bishop Spong means to achieve." -Bill O'Reilly
If religion has caused such strife worldwide for so long,does it not behoove us to see that it is not the true way of love, nor the true way of God? Can we not witness His own truths?
paul ducharme I agree!
If the Church was like this I would gladly go back :) This man is an honest True God faring Man and I could listen to him all day. Thank you John Shelby Spong
I removed my comment because to many people could not grasp the understanding of this situation. So rather than bring nonbelievers into the conflicts within the body, I decided to stop trying to explain things to those who do not have the common foundational understanding of Scripture. I apologize if I have offended anyone; however, I stand my my beliefs.
This man serves God by trying to make a world in which everyone can be loved, even those who don't seem deserving of it (Luke 6:27-29). I don't think one has to believe in a hell to get saved, that just produces more negativity in our developement as human beings. Rather, one must believe in the Kingdom of Heaven which our Lord said is within us (Luke 17:20-21). We must work very hard to produce the Kingdom from within us to a Kingdom around us (Matt. 13:33).
You are right, bro. Hell is what create for ourselves and no out side place of torment nor do we need to be saved for we were never lost as if God would allow that for his children.
If more preached sermons like this there would be less hate in this world.
I’m watching this from Australia and I can tell you the climate here has changed since this was recorded. We are currently suffering from the cold and rain and not the heat. Last three years the La Niña has been bringing the rains. We have just had crops wrecked by rain.
Uh, Bro. Willow, in spite of the natural calamities your land has been suffering under, dont let yourself become a weeping willow
But instead be steadfast in your faith and accept that what is happening is part of natural law
and you just have to ride with it.
Sorry to hear of your climatic problems down there. My son is visiting there as a tourist. I hope he doesnt get sick because of your weather.
@@conradbulos6164 four years la Nina now although the BOM is still saying it's a freaky el Nino. Probably too scared to say it's gotten colder not hotter. Only trouble is we haven't had many bushfires 🤣. It must be so frustrating for them. They have been hunting fires. There is one in VIC but the conspiracy theorist in me thinks it's deliberate because it's near farming land and I know those places burn off a lot and it can get out of hand etc. just do happens to be in a socialist state🤣. But houses have been lost which is always sad. I'm sick of the rain here though. The tropics are getting hammered by rain. Hope you son's not gone up there. Cairns and Tully area in Qld. But hey it happens up there.
@@conradbulos6164 where is he. No I haven't heard of people getting sick in the rain. Flooding is another matter. Lots of germs in the soil and they get moved around. Best to stay away. I'm near Sydney. It's not too bad flood wise here just wet.
I think Spong is right on...and I think he gives a good point towards the end that it's really not productive to try to have a "conversation" with a fundamentalist that already has decided that their point of view is correct and therefore in line with God. By the comments/debates I see here, I think he is right. I'm giving up having "conversations" with such people. I wasted too many hours of my life. I'd rather spend my time learning how in my faith I can help improve the world around me.
Uh, Matt, that's why they are called fundamentalists cuz they are not thinking with their brains but with their fundaments aka butts.
I just noticed your reply, thank you. The orthodox teaching is that God predestines those for salvation, gives them faith to believe, regenerates them to salvation, seals them with the Holy Spirit, all because of the work of Christ. Liberal Christianity bypasses all of this and states by being good one may have a type of salvation from evil by their own will, but does not consider we are born dead to God and children of wrath with no good in us. We need Christ for salvation.
Uh, Andante, your name reminds me of a joke about a girl giving in to seduction tells her !over as she takes off her panties, she cries, No Andantes, I want it allegro con brio! That said, what Bishop Spong is saying is Christ did not come to "save" us but that we may life and have it abundantly. It's a new and different kind of life Jesus was talking about. It's a transcendent life beyond the ordinary physical life but a life more fully lived and experienced abundantly!
Predination is not in God's vocabulary. Tha's why (He) gave us Freewill, the complete, absolute, unlimited and unconditional freedom to do as we wish without negative consequences except the operation of natural law which he set in place to govern the universe
(He) created out of nothing.
Should be.. Predestination not predination.
Furthermore, as God's children begotten in His image and like ness( not created from clay as Genesis teaches) we never lost our place in heaven so salvation is not necessary and Christ is there to remind us who we are not to "save" us but to awaken us.
Beautiful, this is a calling to change christianity and make it more like Jesus.
The main thing is that Jesus Christ is our saviour and i know and love him with all my heart and i thank God for revealing Jesus to me.
God Bless
had a bible study tonight with my close friends and my bro we read Mark 5:1-43.. Amazing.
Uh, Sister Wils, you,ve not been listning to Bishop Spong. He's been saying that Jesus did not come to save us from original sin
cuz he doesnt believe in the Fall.
He quotes Jesus as saying, "I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly"
RIP John. It was always apparent to me that you spoke the truth. Hope to meet you someday...
Spong is offering a suggestion of what the coming of Christ was about. Jesus didn't represent any of the destructive scriptures in the bible. His message was to be able to walk with your neighbor with love and acceptance no matter what race, religion, or sexual orientation they are. Spong is explaining how complex the bible is and the way that it is transcending through time. You experience god when you experience a source of love. I LOVE Spong!
Uh, Jexka, Shouldnt you have G in capital letter in God out of simple reverence for Him/Her as we would treat our parent out of simple respect?
This man makes Christianity come alive for me
+Billy de bianchi THAT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE A REPROBATE.
ah ok. and you are who, god himself??
+Billy de bianchi OH, NOT HARDLY, GOD HIMSELF HATES YOU AND SPONG.
Lol taking this from a guy who calls god jehova. Its yahweh idiot
+Billy de bianchi HAR, HAR, HAR, HAR - WERE YOU ALSO DROOLING WHEN YOU WROTE YOUR POST?
TELL ME SHITLOCK HOLMES, WHY DO YOU THINK I CALL THE LORD GOD JEHOVAH?
WHERE DID YOU GET YAHWOWMAWPOWZOW FROM, GRAFFI FROM THE WALLS OF THE PROJECT YOU LIVE IN?
What a great man Bishop Shelby is❤❤❤
And, btw, the "evil" mentioned in Isa 45 is speaking of "natural evil" (hurricanes, storms, mighty winds-natural disasters), as the context of the verse explains quite clearly. That is why most translations render the word "calamity" (See ESV, NKJV, NASB, NLT, HCSB, MSG).
But good though, look for another verse that describes God's lodrship amd mastery over evil and how he uses it to the praise of His glory (they're there).
Mr. Spong has articulated the truthfulness of the immorality of faith belief in a way that has never been told ever before. His speech was amazingly forthcoming and enlightening. He's a great thinker and a tremendous human being.
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST . . . "Love God with all your heart and all your mind; love your neighbor as yourself." This is EXACTLY what Spong is preaching.
Uh, Rocky, any command is abhorrent and repulsive to human nature even the command to love and even coming from Jesus. Maybe we should start saying instead.....It would be wiser to love
God ........
I believe he spoke very well without getting into mystical teachings on the inner esoteric meaning of Yahushua (Jesus) message. Very thought provoking!
What bishop Spong is talking about is not new, what is quite new is realization and awareness of a Christian bishop.
Thank you for acknowledging and addressing some of the points that atheists and other critics have rightly leveled at religion and more particularly the Bible. Human capacity for reason may be used for deducing that some ideas cannot possibly be true, and the hope is offered that religion might be moderated or improved. However, the burden of proof still rests on one who asserts that some sort of god actually exists.
Yes, Sgrannel, A God exists but who is outside the bible and not one who intervenes in human history out of respect for his gift of Freewill to mankind. He is the God of Christianity who speaks of love and compassion and mercy not the God of Christianity who advocates violence and revenge
and cruelty.
Yes, God exists because you exist as his image and likeness. You are proof itself that God Is.
There are none so blind as those who have eyes but do not see nor minds so closed that refuse to understand.......
i think that you have a point. and yet it is unquestionable that this is a very learned man. He is picking at the bible very intelligently and comparing it to our modern day secular beliefs. I think that he's right about many many things that he speaks of. God gave us a brain to reason with and his word to think about. Don't take anything to be true from first hearing.
What is quite interesting to me is how those who believe in Inclusion or Universalism when someone does not agree with them, they do not condemn those that disagree with them.
However, if you disagree with someone who believes in fundamentalism, they DO NOT HESITATE to let you know that you are hellbound unless you repent and embrace their doctrine.
Wouldn't that pose some concerns to those of us who call ourselves "Christians"?
Had my first pastor at the age of 21 been like this man, I would not have had the troubles I had in religion for four decades. He is confessing what hundreds of people in my past so desperately denied and tried to explain away instead of just simply and honestly confessing it. this leads me to believe that most religious people including the clergy are dishonest.
"Thank you Mr. Spong."
He was truly a gem! I just discovered his wisdom and knowledge 2 days ago and he saved my thoughts regarding Christians and spirituality.
Maybe, not dishonest but simply misguided and needed a Bishop Spong to set them straight.
@@conradbulos6164no, I'm convinced it's dishonesty. I knew the first time I read Genesis when I was 21 that God or the god of the Old Testament was evil. I did the "God is always right dance for years", not realizing what I was doing to my family end my own dignity. I always question within myself, how God could be right when he's so wrong about so many things. I don't wonder anymore. Those books were written by men, not women, not minorities, men in power. Religion is how they kept power.
I love the part in Mark 5:9-13, when Jesus was ready to have a conversation with Legion. It's funny how Jesus doesn't send the demons straight to hell, but he takes compassion on them and grants their request to go into pigs. Most exorcists, like John Constantine, are ready to have a brawl with their demon apponent, but Jesus did no such thing, he's one of a kind!!
God Bless!!!
Now why would demons be afraid to go to hell since that's where they belong? And what did the pigs do to deserve such evil burden?
Bishop John Shelby Spong
I salute you❤
A beautiful sermon.
Dear Bishop Spong, wherever you are, please know that you will be missed. You gave us the real meaning of Christianity and made us see Jesus in a new light and that we owe Judaism
a deep sense of gratitude for being the spritual Mother of Christianity
I'm glad you brought up 1 Cor 2:6-16. Although it is partly Pauline in theology, it also goes into perfect accordance with Jesus' teachings in the Gospels also. St. Paul speaks of a hidden wisdom that is revealed not by the spirit of this age, but by the Holy Spirit. The Pauline epistles were written before the Gospels, so there was obviously a young oral "tradition" that had remained untouched by redactors until the second century (right after the time John was written).
Until the tenth decade when John qrote his Gospel. Yes, Paul wrote his epistles from the young oral tradition later earlier than the Gospel writers by decades and should have been placed first ahead of the gospels in the printed bible for proper chronology and better religious perspective.
If you are going to quote romans 1:23 at least remember to who Paul is writing and what he says in 1:21 "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." 1:23 is clearly talking about those described in 1:21. This means you have to claim that people who see God as loving, don't worship and don't give thanks. You can quote mine all you want, but it isn't working without context.
Thank you.
Interesting to recall that a book that was available to me as a child was Fox's Book of Martyrs.
Like most Mainline churches..have watered down the Gospel,allowed detestable things to enter and serve as ministers......so much has changed from the first century...listening to this guy.......He is Lukewarm at best and Jesus will spue him out of His mouth....
Thank you John Shelby Spong.
Great Lecture.
Well, one thing we have to understand is that being spiritual, or religious, ain't just about being "good." It is rather about transformation of heart, soul, and mind. This is something you can find in almost every religious tradition.
What does it matter to be on the left or the right?
We can know that the Book of Ezekiel had been written by Ezekiel himself because he speaks in first person, although the authorship of Ezekiel is also questioned by some skeptics. Since all the books of the Septuagint lack pedigree (a mention of the actual writter from which they derived), we cannot know for sure who the actual compiler was; whether it be one person or a number of people.
I like Spong's point that the bible can be seen to move from one conception of reality/God/humanity to another (I think it starts about minute 47). If we see our holy scripture as a static set of rules then we might just turn out to be that kind of Christian. However, if we view the whole of scripture as dynamic, a living, growing tradition, then we may open our own hearts and minds to such growth. The Spirit moves.
A truly brilliant lecture!
As usual, I agree with the late Reverend Spong; it must surely be the unforgiveable sin, to claim to be the Chosen, for it denies the Sacred Spirit in all.
Also, in that verse, submit does not mean what it has come to mean in our western society. It in no way means subserviant. We all must submit to some authority. My boss is younger than me and has less experience in actual practice than I do, but I submit to him as he is in authority over me and I like getting a paycheck, but that does not mean that in life I'm not his equal. In marriage, a wife and husband are partners, but the husband has the final vote. He should take his wife's council, tho.
I wish I lived closer to him. I would go see him as often as I could!
He definitely restored my faith in the reason of the Bible...
His desire is bring common sense back to the Christian arena... but as he says its been in short supply for quite some time.
You also stated, "Joshua was also given authority to write Scripture, and most likely wrote Joshua and the end of Deuteronomy (Joshua 24:26)"
Exactly!! This proves my point that Moses didn't write the WHOLE of the Torah, the Five Books (The Pentateuch).
In this same chapter, St. Matthias was selected to take Judas Iscariot's place, but St. Luke makes no mention of the Apostles' approving of St. James as a "pillar" of the Jerusalem Church. Paul already mentions that St. James was a prominent figure in Galatians 2:9 and 12. 1 Corithians 15:7 also mentions that Jesus appeared to St. James. It's funny how Paul doesn't mention the women that Jesus appeared to, but this is probably his patriarchal standing point already in action.
Two questions: One, was Jesus a Christian? Two, what do you more nearly believe is the fundamental nature of Christian scripture -- the infallible, inerrant word of God, totality of revelation? or the testimonies of people of faith as they relate to and describe their experiences of God?
Bishop Spong takes us from the ground floor to the Love Level.
so if a person is not born again but behaves in a likewise 'good' manner, what side will he be standing. Left or right?
Yeah, I also noticed some misunderstandings, but these actually make you think of how certain quotations of the bible can be misinterpreted...badly misinterpreted. For example, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." That quote has been used by christians to enhance persecutions of "infidels" throughout history. Bishop Spong most likely makes deliberate misunderstandings to drive a point across. Many spiritual teachers go to extremes to drive certain points.
Thank you sir for your reply. Yes, I believe that liberal christianity finds no need for the sacrfice of Christ, so we may save ourselves. It is a system whereby mankind is autonomous and makes his own rules as he sees fit. I on the otherhand consider Christ my Lord over me, and my creator in whom is all authority. This means I hold the bible as the sole provider for the teachings of salvation.
without a doubt, great talk! even for the person who studied 10 years in eastern orthodox gymnasium, it is a fascinating lecture, with lots of humor and precious words
A wonderful talk.
I got farther along in the book of his I was reading and I saw that he actually didn't think low of the Bible, but had a lot of appreciation for it. I started to think the historical backgrounds of some of the scriptures as pretty cool. Also, when I got to the chapter on the so-called New Testament, everything there made too much sense. There might be some christian apologists who might have good arguments against Spong, but I haven't heard of them. To be honest, I haven't looked.
I can feel truth when i hear it, this man talks it.
You've been deceived.
I haven't read Sam Harris' book, but I've seen some of his interviews and lectures. I've also seen a lot of films of Christopher Hitchens. They are pretty harsh, but Spong isn't any bit more gentle than they are.
Compare Gen 1:25-27 and 2:18-19
Compare Gen 1:27 and 2:18-22
Tell me what you get out of these verses.
This world is seriously lacking sensible voices like Bishop Spong. I think the church has destroyed itself long enough. It is time to begin a movement of healing. If more of us would speak up then we could probably have avoided the meaningless war we are in.
He talks about a new consciousness always winning against an old definition.
What guarantees that this new consciousness is correct or that it is something that God desires?
I would like to ask Mr. Spong if he believes Jesus said “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14). He'll probably say no, because it contradicts what he is teaching.
Women were treated that way long before the Jewish faith came about. Slavery was also a different animal back then. Spartacus, an escaped slave from Rome, also owned slaves. What the Bible does is show individuals and the whole of humanity, warts and all. It's an honest portrayal of us. Polygomy is one example of that. No where in Scripture does it say that's fine. It presents it as a reality of the time. Same with slavery, just giving guidance for Christians on either side of that life.
TH-cam needs to implement a bookmark option. So you can stop a video and watch the rest some other time later.
I would not go back, BUT I certainly would've stayed far longer :) . Mr. Spong strikes me as a very good man, exemplary even. I think lots of people, religious or not, could learn much from someone like him.
I person, Bishop John Shelby Spong is not a kindly person. However, I agree with his theology. He is brilliant.
A form of the Golden Rule can be found in nearly all religions, and most of these faiths predate Christianity.
@tumbleweeeeeed I couldn't agree more. Whenever I hear Spong speaking he always reminds me of the snakey charcter in the garden of Eden story, and conversely, when I read that very true story, I can always see the 'bishop''s face with the mouth opening and the darting tongue slithering out, 'Yea, hath God said?.....
Finally someone to help people understand the fact that religion is a scam.
Uh, no, Atam(?)not Adam? Religion is not a scam but the interpretation of it by people who have their own self serving personal agenda. Get it?
When we read God's name within chapter 1 in Hebrew, it is pronounced 'Elohim'. When we read his name in chapter 2, it is pronounced
'Yahweh'. In Hebrew, "elohim" is a pleuralized word and can be translated as "Gods". The writter of the first chapter should have used the singular word "'elowahh" if God were viewed as monotheistic. But the later document corrects that usage by using the Tetragrammaton (YHWH).
@AR333 Good post. Out of interest though, what is your personal position?
You seem to have made a decent case that christians ought to start from a more neutral, non-theistic (either deistic or atheistic) position regarding spiritual truth and only accept jesus/yahweh/the bible if what they find fits, was that your intention?
Considering the rather dodgy origins of the NT canon (and their lack of historical reliability) would we not be better off discarding the book altogether?
I think it's funny how we as Christians look at how Paul and Leviticus wrote about how to keep slaves, or that a woman should never hold authority over a man, or that a father can sell his daughter into slavery, or that a child can be stoned to death for being unruly, we simply dismiss it as the ignorance of the age in which they lived. Yet when it comes to homosexuality, suddenly they are the unquestionable authorities on what is moral and just in the eyes of God.
I'm in the exact same position today, just ordered one of his books on Amazon. This guy is pretty major.
And yet, conservative scholarship fails to produce any hard evidence saying that the authorship of Moses and Joshua of the Torah is undisputed because later books like Joshua (after the composition of J and E), 2 Kings (561-538 BC), Chronicals (450-435 BC), Ezra (456 BC), and Nehemiah (431 - 430 BC). These books make no mention of the specific names of books in the Torah, but they only refer to the Law of Moses.
To study your spouse does not make you love her. It is love that makes you love her. So will idea to study to improve a personal relationship work?
While I am on the more conservative/fundamentalist side of the spectrum, and would say that what Spong espouses is not Christianity, it's sad that so many (though there are more of us than you'd think) on my side of the spectrum inadvertantly view Christianity as a "check-your-brain-at-the-door" faith. God calls us to love Him with all our heart soul and MIND, and I feel that to do so means actually studying and knowing what we believe.
What does the Bishop say about converting Muslims to Christianity? I was part of the Islamo-Christian dialogue in the 70's and 80's.
It's wonderful how getting death threats is listed as one of his credentials.
Thank you for the answers. It's nice to see someone reasonable and intelligent on these kind of videos. I also disagree with Spong on some of his points, but I do appreciate different opinions as long as they are backed up by reasonable arguments.
Gen 1 does not say that Man and woman was made simultaneously, but simply asserts that God created them both in His image, without going into detail. Gen 2 provides that detail, where we see man was made first, then woman (Paul confirms to this in his epistle to Timothy)
Your god and my God are obviously different. The main difference being that your god is one created by you. You give life to your god, but when you die, so will he and so he is not able to save. The Holy Spirit says that my God is mighty to save bc He forever lives to make intercession for us. His existence can be traced back from everlasting to everlasting. When I'm dead and gone He and His Word will remain. You choose which man-made deity you will follow. As for me, I will serve the Lord.
I aggree with Spong on almost everything, but he's christianity is very original, and only for him.
Now is the time for all people to not be necessarily "Christian" but be Christlike. I have a news flash: God is not a Christian. Nor a Hindu, Buddhist, etc. We, as believers, have the opportunity to give birth to a new Christianity. One that is inclusive, accepting and honors the great traditions of the church through the ages. Our time is at hand. We can't fear fundamentalism. Our world is crying out for what we as believers in a loving God can give. Let's be true to God and His love for ALL.
thx....I really need this
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy.
Yes, Acts does record this, but St. Paul also records what the Spirit had revealed to him after Christ had been taken up.
No, we can't recieve new insights about God. Jesus has made Him fully known to us.
This is so true.... Thank you for making since!!
1. He sees Genesis 1 and 2 as contradictory-they aren't.
Well, that depends on how you read Genesis 1 and 2. Can you tell me how you view them and their compatibility? I would like here a conservative point of view.
You also said, "Luke's gospel was written before Timothy, bc Paul quotes from it and calls it 'Scripture' "
First of all, please note which epistle to Timothy you are referring to. But then again, both epistles are considered pseudepigraphic and probably not written by Paul, but someone who knew him. If you are refering to 2 Timothy, then you would be correct because this epistle was written in the 2 century, Luke was written in 85 C.E.
A breath of fresh air.