Bill Bruford once said that in Yes they would have a 4 hour discussion in rehearsals about say chord changes or a key change, in King Crimson you were just expected to know
I watched a documentary about King Crimson that detailed Bill Bruford's leaving Yes in 1972 for KC, which the narrator compared to "going over the Berlin Wall into East Germany." 😁
I was lucky enough to see this lineup in Munich at a small venue , " Schwabingerbrau "in Sept. 1980 or 81 ( ? ). I will never forget it. Tightest playing I have ever witnessed.
The early formation of King Crimson is a fascinating and strangely unglamorous tale. Robert Fripp's recollection of living in a bedsit in Brixton with inexplicable blood stains on the mattress is eerie and amusing in equal measure.
I don’t think he meant it disparagingly - it was more a way of expressing the artistic direction in which they preferred to go. Clapton said something similar about his choice to leave the Yardbirds & join the Bluesbreakers, saying he didn’t want to be in a band like 10cc! For the record, I love the Moody Blues AND 10cc (although, I admit, not as much as Crimson & the Bluesbreakers)!
The Moodies made "the same" fantastic album 6 times in a row, which is something a lot of people wish their favorite artists would do. Queen did it 4 times, Roth era Van Halen did it 5 times, The Smashing Pumpkins did it 3 times. Bruford probably doesn't think any band should stick with a "formula" from one album to the next, but ironically the three he did with Crim in the 70s and the three in the early 80s are quite similar. His comment was a bit out of context and just a tad arrogant.
I worked for Sound company in London in the 80s who did King Crimson’s live sound. George, the main front of house engineer had been doing rehearsals with the band but had to miss a couple of days so he rang Robert to ask how things have been going. “Treacherous” came the reply. Still laughing 40 years later .
It's very strange comparing King Crimson Robert Fripp to Toyah and Roberts Sunday lunch Robert Fripp, the latter being 3 minutes of him trying not to laugh.
Definitely a film worth seeing for anyone with an interest in KC. Bruford was dead right about the band's need to evolve, and only someone with the tenacity of Fripp could have pulled it off.
On the other hand Belew made an uncomfortable point in the film. As soon as he was fired, they kinda stopped evolving. They only releaded live albums, no new studio stuff, no new songs. I think they kind of became a King Crimson cover band.
I believe Fripp is grossly misunderstood and unfairly maligned. Frank Zappa, by all accounting, was a total martinette and unrelenting task master of the most intense kind. Twelve or fifteen hour rehearsals were normal. If you didn't cut it, Zappa would toss you out in a second, without a word. Fripp at least showed some heart and kindness. He was far more approachable and certainly more democratic than Zappa. Yet Fripp gets the reputation for being a monster, and Zappa this comic, zany character with this high flying band of humor. I'd rather work for Fripp any day than Zappa. Funny how Belew worked for both, and Zappa showed him patience and kindness he reportedly never demonstrated to others. Doubt this? Watch the Zappa documentary that came out a few years ago, and pay close attention to what Ruth Underwood and a few others from that early 70s lineup (so called Petit Wazoo) have to say about Zappa.
The worst martinet - far worse than Zappa - was Captain Beefheart. He was possibly a psychopath, who physically assaulted members of his band if they didn't do what he wanted well enough and quickly enough and subjected them to psychological torture through his endless criticism.
@@kingcurry6594 Yeah, I'd only heard of this for the first time just a few months ago. All that hell for music that sounds like total mayhem. I enjoy Beefheart's music, but it's not what I would want to play. For the record, I'm an enormous Zappa fan and love his music. But I won't pretend he's a saint just because I think his music is genius.
I saw this at Sheffield Docfest last year and it is a great documentary, whether you're a fan of KC or not. Jakko was there, as was Toby Amies and some lively discussion was held after the screening. As one or two have said, the Bill Rieflin scenes were handled very well. KC are an acquired taste but this documentary should appeal to most folks, it's more about a "dysfunctional" bunch of acquaintances than anything else. 😉
Ian McDonald saying that about what was KC at that stage is ironic in that he spent many hours doing the overdubs for COTCK so the album had a unique layered textures of soundscapes, it is more ironic as Peter Sinfield who helped write the lyrics for the album had come into the orbit of KC through his friendship with Ian McDonald.
SUPERLATIVE documentary. Sir Robert of Fripp's few minutes of held in check emotion were so deeply powerful. speaks volumes about the man. his exclaimation "BOLLOCKS!" is just as powerful, albeit for a quite different emotion... fab stuff in deed & all 'round Gaff's origami unicorn spotted!
He said in an interview that the music was becoming increasing demonic, so it might have been the 'Devil's Triangle'* (based on Holsts "Mars" from the Planets) although he was only given co-credit for the 'Merday Morn' section (and not for the section which included his ITCOTCK). Being in that band was complicated.
Ian Mac was a great musician and a huge asset to Crimso, both at the start and intermittently later on. Then he goes and helps form Foreigner. Can't blame the bloke for wanting to make some dosh, I guess, but what a strange comedown. But then there was John Wetton and Asia...
@@bestbutter Never heard about Ian Mac going to Foreigner, I am not into them or whatever they did. So how successful has he been since I don't cease to pick up the other albums he's been involved with? (I can list a few, but forgot its titles - it's an album with a light coloured pink cover I think). Asia neither, never liked it. Like Wetton's voice, though. Back to Ian Mac, I know he wrote some lyrics for PFM, which I find pretty cool. Funny band. I guess it's subjective of course, but in the form of popularity, they came nowhere near ELP / King Crimson.
didn't mention the megapause. also, it's kind of the point of toby's flick- & he's mentioned it over & over in the various Q&As & in the chat with mark ellen & david hepworth... it's kind of the point that fripp ISN'T in fact the taskmaster, but rather that king crimson- as a job, as a creative environment, is actually the thing that either gets the best work out of these people that they'll ever do (fripp included) or it will kill them. in some cases, both.
Never has a band made up of so many talented musicians ever made so much music which I find unlistenable. Fripp is a genius, but a genius who simply lives on a different musical planet to me. He is obsessively perfectionist. But he has a real sense of humour, as shown in his series of Sunday Lunch videos with his lovely wife, Toyah Wilcox.
agreed. I have found his most listenable work to be within other people's contexts.... "heroes" aside, largely because of over exposure (no pun intended) & visconti's vaccilation over the actual take used leaving us with a mess of three lines... I like what he brought to blondie & others, but find most of KC's work to be bombastic in an "aren't we clever?" way, all rather adolescent, like "look what chord we learned this week!" favourite fripp? "exposure" & "LoG" in its original form.
Kermode: 'I like King Crimson ... up to a point' Yep, I'm totally in that room with you. I love prog, have done ever since 1973, but King Crimson - for all their elevated prog status - I can take or leave. Just way too abstract for my taste. But this KC docu looks really interesting. PS Sorry, but Bill Bruford's (love him BTW) snooty comment about the Moody Blues was unnecessary.
I liked certain portions of this movie - and the opportunity to hear these musicians speak candidly is extremely interesting - but I thought it wasn't well structured as a documentary, and missed an opportunity to draw out deeper or more interesting themes from the material. Well worth watching but it wasn't the documentary I was hoping for.
Except for "21st Century Schizoid Man", "Epitaph", and "Moonchild", this is one of the most boring albums ever made. And I say that as a King Crimson fan of 52 years.
It's just of its time... Definitely not indicative of what they became. But it stands up to other albums of that time to me... boring is subjective, I fact people who like to use that word, tend to be...err, boring.
IMO the main problem of King Crimson - their lyrics really sucked. Such an amazing sound, but pretentious, pompous, baroque and obscure lyrics by Peter Sinfield. "21st Century Schizoid Man" was OK lyrically. The rest of the album .... not so much. In fact, lyrically I liked "Red" and "Starless and Bible Black" albums only. The lyrics matched the sound. And somehow I could connect. They would have been better off doing exclusively instrumental tracks. A few of Belew's era songs were good. Like "Indiscipline" or "Frame by Frame", "Three of the Perfect Pair". As for Peter Sinfield's lyrics, I recall reading somewhere that Greg Lake didn't not even know what the lyrics were about (I may be misquoting .... it may have been someone else who said that).
Bill Bruford once said that in Yes they would have a 4 hour discussion in rehearsals about say chord changes or a key change, in King Crimson you were just expected to know
I love King Crimson - every iteration was a new creative force etching an iconic moment in the history of music.
I watched a documentary about King Crimson that detailed Bill Bruford's leaving Yes in 1972 for KC, which the narrator compared to "going over the Berlin Wall into East Germany." 😁
that Fripp/Belew/Levin/Bruford lineup is mind boggling
There's a live version of Waiting Man on TH-cam that's so hypnotic it's one of my favourite things ever.
@@mrshankly213 th-cam.com/video/0WzSy1LGiJI/w-d-xo.html
I was lucky enough to see this lineup in Munich at a small venue , " Schwabingerbrau "in Sept. 1980 or 81 ( ? ). I will never forget it. Tightest playing I have ever witnessed.
It's truly the band at a huge peak. Astonishing musicianship.
@Marc Leclair Marc, where do I start with CK? I've dabbled in the past with them but it never really stuck. Where do I find my in?
The early formation of King Crimson is a fascinating and strangely unglamorous tale. Robert Fripp's recollection of living in a bedsit in Brixton with inexplicable blood stains on the mattress is eerie and amusing in equal measure.
Most mattress blood stains are caused by nothing more sinister than menstruation.
The Bill Rieflin section of this music doc makes it a must watch for anyone. Hard not to get emotional.
The Bill Reiflin segment was very powerful. Really was
I cried. It's really a punch in the stomach
The penny has just dropped, when Mark mentioned he was at Manchester Uni, I now realised we worked for the same magazine ‘City Life’
funny shot at The Moody Blues lmao. Looks like a good doc
I did not understand this comment. Can you help?
Bill Bruford's comment was tongue in cheek.
I don’t think he meant it disparagingly - it was more a way of expressing the artistic direction in which they preferred to go. Clapton said something similar about his choice to leave the Yardbirds & join the Bluesbreakers, saying he didn’t want to be in a band like 10cc! For the record, I love the Moody Blues AND 10cc (although, I admit, not as much as Crimson & the Bluesbreakers)!
@@razzle1964 Hmm I doubt Bruford is a fan, unlike Ian McDonald who loved the Moodies and was clearly inspired by their mellotron work
The Moodies made "the same" fantastic album 6 times in a row, which is something a lot of people wish their favorite artists would do. Queen did it 4 times, Roth era Van Halen did it 5 times, The Smashing Pumpkins did it 3 times. Bruford probably doesn't think any band should stick with a "formula" from one album to the next, but ironically the three he did with Crim in the 70s and the three in the early 80s are quite similar. His comment was a bit out of context and just a tad arrogant.
I was already really keen to see this but even more so now I've seen this review.
I worked for Sound company in London in the 80s who did King Crimson’s live sound.
George, the main front of house engineer had been doing rehearsals with the band but had to miss a couple of days so he rang Robert to ask how things have been going.
“Treacherous” came the reply.
Still laughing 40 years later .
It's very strange comparing King Crimson Robert Fripp to Toyah and Roberts Sunday lunch Robert Fripp, the latter being 3 minutes of him trying not to laugh.
It still slightly boggles my mind that Robert Fripp and Toyah Wilcox are married... but yeah, their Sunday Lunch videos are hilarious.
Definitely a film worth seeing for anyone with an interest in KC. Bruford was dead right about the band's need to evolve, and only someone with the tenacity of Fripp could have pulled it off.
On the other hand Belew made an uncomfortable point in the film. As soon as he was fired, they kinda stopped evolving. They only releaded live albums, no new studio stuff, no new songs. I think they kind of became a King Crimson cover band.
He's right, but I do like The Moody Blues too :-)
@@rileysdad1923 Agreed, both statements are true, but I'd tend to agree with yours is slightly more accurate to the KC of 1990-present
@1:30 Hahahaha! "kakaka ka ka" He's referring to Gustav Holst The Planets cover they did. 🤣
Was very happy to finally see kc live during the music is our friend tour. Pretty choice
I believe Fripp is grossly misunderstood and unfairly maligned. Frank Zappa, by all accounting, was a total martinette and unrelenting task master of the most intense kind. Twelve or fifteen hour rehearsals were normal. If you didn't cut it, Zappa would toss you out in a second, without a word. Fripp at least showed some heart and kindness. He was far more approachable and certainly more democratic than Zappa. Yet Fripp gets the reputation for being a monster, and Zappa this comic, zany character with this high flying band of humor. I'd rather work for Fripp any day than Zappa. Funny how Belew worked for both, and Zappa showed him patience and kindness he reportedly never demonstrated to others. Doubt this? Watch the Zappa documentary that came out a few years ago, and pay close attention to what Ruth Underwood and a few others from that early 70s lineup (so called Petit Wazoo) have to say about Zappa.
The worst martinet - far worse than Zappa - was Captain Beefheart. He was possibly a psychopath, who physically assaulted members of his band if they didn't do what he wanted well enough and quickly enough and subjected them to psychological torture through his endless criticism.
@@kingcurry6594 Yeah, I'd only heard of this for the first time just a few months ago. All that hell for music that sounds like total mayhem. I enjoy Beefheart's music, but it's not what I would want to play. For the record, I'm an enormous Zappa fan and love his music. But I won't pretend he's a saint just because I think his music is genius.
I saw this at Sheffield Docfest last year and it is a great documentary, whether you're a fan of KC or not. Jakko was there, as was Toby Amies and some lively discussion was held after the screening. As one or two have said, the Bill Rieflin scenes were handled very well. KC are an acquired taste but this documentary should appeal to most folks, it's more about a "dysfunctional" bunch of acquaintances than anything else. 😉
Ian McDonald saying that about what was KC at that stage is ironic in that he spent many hours doing the overdubs for COTCK so the album had a unique layered textures of soundscapes, it is more ironic as Peter Sinfield who helped write the lyrics for the album had come into the orbit of KC through his friendship with Ian McDonald.
Yo, I didn't know this existed, thanks!
There's a half hour interview with the guy that made the film on the 'Word in Your Ear' site on you tube that you might like too.
@@stevenbaker7696 Thanks 🙂
@@ivanostry3359 👍
I saw king crimson at Irvine Meadows late 80s.
It was a warm summer mystical night.
I wish fripp gave lake the time of day to perform at reunion before he died
I want to see that Thela Hun Ginjeet music video
SUPERLATIVE documentary. Sir Robert of Fripp's few minutes of held in check emotion were so deeply powerful. speaks volumes about the man.
his exclaimation "BOLLOCKS!" is just as powerful, albeit for a quite different emotion...
fab stuff in deed & all 'round
Gaff's origami unicorn spotted!
In The Court Of The Crimson King is one of the most perfect albums in history!
Toby Amies talks about making this doc' on A Word in your Ear podcast/ YT channel, very much backing Mark's thoughts...
I think Ian McDonald wrote or co-wrote the piece of music he claimed to hate. Much later he rejoined the band.
He said in an interview that the music was becoming increasing demonic, so it might have been the 'Devil's Triangle'* (based on Holsts "Mars" from the Planets) although he was only given co-credit for the 'Merday Morn' section (and not for the section which included his ITCOTCK). Being in that band was complicated.
@@SuperNevile What a fail to quit just because of that. Fripp actually didn't want him to leave.
Ian Mac was a great musician and a huge asset to Crimso, both at the start and intermittently later on. Then he goes and helps form Foreigner. Can't blame the bloke for wanting to make some dosh, I guess, but what a strange comedown. But then there was John Wetton and Asia...
@@bestbutter Never heard about Ian Mac going to Foreigner, I am not into them or whatever they did. So how successful has he been since I don't cease to pick up the other albums he's been involved with? (I can list a few, but forgot its titles - it's an album with a light coloured pink cover I think). Asia neither, never liked it. Like Wetton's voice, though.
Back to Ian Mac, I know he wrote some lyrics for PFM, which I find pretty cool. Funny band.
I guess it's subjective of course, but in the form of popularity, they came nowhere near ELP / King Crimson.
@@bestbutter So Ian Mac has only been helping people (getting used), without making a dime? 😂
didn't mention the megapause.
also, it's kind of the point of toby's flick- & he's mentioned it over & over in the various Q&As & in the chat with mark ellen & david hepworth...
it's kind of the point that fripp ISN'T in fact the taskmaster, but rather that king crimson- as a job, as a creative environment, is actually the thing that either gets the best work out of these people that they'll ever do (fripp included) or it will kill them. in some cases, both.
This is a pretty great documentary..
The parts with Bill Rieflin are very sad..
I saw it, I loved it, and I pretty much agree with everything said here!
Best band ever
very sad to see Bill Reiflens last days in the documentary
I went to a screening at the picture house in Piccadilly recently. Was the only couple there. Literally no one else
Mayo’s interest in King Crimson is not sparked
Buy the DVD instead of waiting for a screening.
The drama student at Manchester University was Monty I think
Ok documentary about a brilliant band.
other way around. brilliant doc about an ok band.
Love Ian!
What's wrong with Moody Blues, Bill?
Subscribed basically because your are both a pair of Nutters and that fits well with me 👍
Oh and we're all over 60 🤔🤔
'Her indoors couldn't care less about King Crimson.' Grounds for divorce, methinks.
.’This is a dangerous place’.
Where can I find this?
Come for the film reviews. Stay for the awkward outros.
All things serve the beam
King Crimson is at the utter apogee of any music from 1970 to the present.
1969, I think you mean.
What's apogee?
@@andym28 Google" define apogee"!
Never has a band made up of so many talented musicians ever made so much music which I find unlistenable.
Fripp is a genius, but a genius who simply lives on a different musical planet to me. He is obsessively perfectionist. But he has a real sense of humour, as shown in his series of Sunday Lunch videos with his lovely wife, Toyah Wilcox.
agreed. I have found his most listenable work to be within other people's contexts.... "heroes" aside, largely because of over exposure (no pun intended) & visconti's vaccilation over the actual take used leaving us with a mess of three lines... I like what he brought to blondie & others, but find most of KC's work to be bombastic in an "aren't we clever?" way, all rather adolescent, like "look what chord we learned this week!"
favourite fripp? "exposure" & "LoG" in its original form.
A lot of people are too boring and narrow minded to appreciate King Crimson
If you can sit through Larks' Tongues or Topographic Oceans, or Tarkus, then your tastes are definitely more evolved than mine.
"im very good at lip synching dialogue" i think kermode would love tiktok
King who?
Court of th
e Grumpy Fripp. 🤣
Kermode: 'I like King Crimson ... up to a point'
Yep, I'm totally in that room with you. I love prog, have done ever since 1973, but King Crimson - for all their elevated prog status - I can take or leave. Just way too abstract for my taste. But this KC docu looks really interesting.
PS Sorry, but Bill Bruford's (love him BTW) snooty comment about the Moody Blues was unnecessary.
Wow people still go cinema? I enjoyed zero days documentary (10/10 imo) .. Any other docus in the last decade that are very highly rated?
And the centre of the universe is???
Wimborne Dorset
I liked certain portions of this movie - and the opportunity to hear these musicians speak candidly is extremely interesting - but I thought it wasn't well structured as a documentary, and missed an opportunity to draw out deeper or more interesting themes from the material. Well worth watching but it wasn't the documentary I was hoping for.
an Mcdonald was great with KC and Foreigner.Genius.
And he's married to Toyah Wilcox lucky b....!
Never has the cliché "opposites attract" seemed more appropriate.
Except for "21st Century Schizoid Man", "Epitaph", and "Moonchild", this is one of the most boring albums ever made.
And I say that as a King Crimson fan of 52 years.
Well that's already around two thirds of the whole album so it's not such a failure even by your quite unique opinion
Well…. That’s most of the album….🤷🏻♂️
It's just of its time... Definitely not indicative of what they became. But it stands up to other albums of that time to me... boring is subjective, I fact people who like to use that word, tend to be...err, boring.
If 'Moonchild' includes 'The Dream and The Illusion' then that was the most boring 12 minutes of nothing ever laid in a groove.
I Talk To The Wind is really lovely.
IMO the main problem of King Crimson - their lyrics really sucked. Such an amazing sound, but pretentious, pompous, baroque and obscure lyrics by Peter Sinfield. "21st Century Schizoid Man" was OK lyrically. The rest of the album .... not so much. In fact, lyrically I liked "Red" and "Starless and Bible Black" albums only. The lyrics matched the sound. And somehow I could connect. They would have been better off doing exclusively instrumental tracks. A few of Belew's era songs were good. Like "Indiscipline" or "Frame by Frame", "Three of the Perfect Pair".
As for Peter Sinfield's lyrics, I recall reading somewhere that Greg Lake didn't not even know what the lyrics were about (I may be misquoting .... it may have been someone else who said that).
hell of a digression into something not particularly relevant
How reffing boring can you possibly get.
Robert and his wife do enjoy a quiet Sunday Lunch...
th-cam.com/video/eq1t01DSDeo/w-d-xo.html
@@chrisjames1924 Toyah is the poster-girl for "growing old disgracefully". Good luck to her! We need more lovely eccentrics to brighten our days.