1. You need evenly spaced and lots of feeders, the more you have the less voltage drop. 2. The locomotive onboard capacitor size affects the voltage drop. 3. Adding a power booster but skipping feeders will only help that section that has them. 4. The furthest point from your power supply on your trackplan will be the lowest voltage as you lose power the farther away you get.
Thanks for those points. I do have evenly spaced drops around the layout, but the two questions were always how far apart should the drops be and how many locomotives can you power with one supply. My son and I are disagreeing on the number of drops needed and whether it needs more power or not. We are going to add drops anyway because I agree with point 3 about them being needed for the booster to work anyway. But I think we will need the booster too. Right now we have not even added any drops for the trolley loop, which is four more engines drawing down the power (though they are all without sound). But the four passenger trains I will run on a regular basis are all built with multi-locomotive consists. One has just two but one has four and the other two are three each. To me, that is a lot of power being drawn from just the Zephyr. I figure a power booster can't hurt even if I really don't need it and it will provide insurance to keep things going.
@@Rothstein_Model_Trains do not underestimate multi loco consists . I run lots of abba ABA etc and that’s 3-4 motors. Plus the n scale is prob pulling a longer train more weight and uphill vs the Ho and you see what the zephyr is a beginner pack only.
Thanks. I am not sure I understand your point about underestimating the MU consists though. I counted each engine in the consist equally, but you make it sound as if the total current draw for the consist is more than if the same number of locomotives is running individually. Is that correct? I do understand that the Zephyr is a beginner's station and I am looking at replacing it later, after I get the booster. My next question on the Zephyr is if the limit of ten locomotives in the memory applies when I am using extra throttles too. I need to research that point more because that might be part of the trouble I have controlling more than the 12 I did have on it.
@@Rothstein_Model_Trains get a system with 99+ locos and sufficient amperage 5-8 amps depending on expansion plans. If the throttle will allow you more locos yes you need a booster which you said. But it’s a bandaid. I started with a empire builder 5 amps and I’m now adding 2 boosters and wireless years later.
The issue is in using Kato track for a large, permanent layout. Kato as a rule makes outstanding products, but their track really isn’t designed for that. What Kato produces is top shelf toy track. Power drops on larger layouts using Kato track are a given. There are a number of reasons why you would be losing power with the Kato track, but the most likely culprit is the switches. When deciding where to put the power leads you would start by having one on each side of every switch. Evenly spacing the feeders with Kato track is not the answer. When using flex track, like Atlas or Peco, you have a joint every 3' +/-, so even spacing is the logical answer. With Kato, you may have a dozen pieces of track over a 3' stretch. In this case it's more about the number of joints between feeds than the distance. Another tip is to be sure that not only is the track pushed together well laterally, but vertically as well. Run your fingers over the joints. No doubt you’ll discover some surprisingly large offsets. With fingers on each rail on both sides of the joint, press each piece down firmly to be sure that the tops of the rails are at the same height. Lastly, take a pair of needle nose pliers and give each rail joiner a gentle squeeze (yes, on each side of every joint) once you have your track plan finalized. All the side-to-side action when assembling and disassembling track loosens the rail joiners.
I am not sure I agree with you that Unitrack is not a good choice for a permanent layout, but I do like the two points you made about the number of joints between feeds and the possible expansion of the joints from disassembling the layout while working on it. It makes sense to me that the joints have a different resistance than the track itself, so the number of joints affects the current flow more than flex track in the same distance. I had not thought of that and was considering the distance between the drops. I agree that it does have a problem with the vertical alignment at times. I had learned about that earlier when some of my steam locomotives would jump the track at specific joints. There is very little pressure on some of the pilot trucks (especially in the Big Boy) and the bump would make the pilot jump and cause derailments. In addition to pushing them down to be even, you can take a file and smooth out the joint. I recommend doing that only after you are sure of the layout because it could make the problem worse if the two pieces of track get moved and joined to other track. I also agree about putting the drops on both sides of every turnout. The only time I do not do this is if I have a section I deliberately want left unpowered. Kato turnouts are power routing, so I sometimes take advantage of that to have a parking track that shuts the locomotive down when I set the switch back to the main route.
Thanks, 12 is what I found I could reliably control also. I had it up to 17 locos running but some were acting erratically, so I dropped it back down. I figure it gets me to either 5 or 6 trains since I almost always will have MU's on them.
I have no experience with the NCE, but I still use the Zephyr on one of my layouts. It works well, especially with a remote throttle plugged in to make it easier to run multiple trains.
The basic principles will be the same. The command station only puts out so many amps and each locomotive will draw so much. At some point you will run out of power and need boosters. The big difference will be how many locos you can run, since HO scale will take more power per loco, but the HO setting on the command station may put out more amperage than the N scale setting. And in both cases, getting enough feeders properly spaced around the track will make a big difference to how well the trains run.
Kato is my personal favorite right now, but Scaletrains is very good. My only real point against Scaletrains is they are expensive, but it seems to be worth every thing I paid for it. The UP Turbine Big Blow is my first Scaletrains model and I will buy more. I also like Broadway Limited Imports and have several from them. There are some mixed reviews of BLI on the web though.
Hi Steve! Great experiment you ran. So now we know you feel comfortable running 10 locomotives with the Digitrax Zephyr and track layout that you have. My next question would be how much effect does the drag of the non-powered cars behind the locomotive have on the voltage drop. In other words, if each of the 10 locomotives was pulling 5 freight or passenger cars, could you still run 10 locomotives at once? If the drag of pulling the cars meant you could have only 8 locomotives, then would pulling 10 freight or passenger cars per locomotive mean you could have only 5 or 6 locomotives? My other [unrealistic] question, based on what Montana & Wyoming said in their comment #4, is what would happen if all the engines were coupled together? Would you then see a voltage drop at the farthest point from the power supply such that the engines might all stop from lack of voltage? Please DO NOT try this experiment. I don't want you to burn out your engines. Great video, but I missed seeing King Kong and Godzilla! LOL
Hi, Ed. Yep, I feel comfortable with ten locomotives at a time without the booster. I do not know how much extra power is eaten up with the drag of the rest of the train, but I am guessing it will not be as significant as the sound draw is. Sound eats up a lot more power than most people think. I think we will still use a limit of ten locomotives when i put the cars back on. To be honest though, with the trains instead of just the locomotives, there is not nearly as much space for as many trains at one time so the engine count will be lower. As for your unrealistic question, I don't know the answer. If I were running a consist of say 10 locomotives and had no drops to move the power, the resistance of the track would make the voltage drop greatest at the farthest point from my one connection point. As the consist approached that point, it would start slowing down from a lack of power (I think anyway). This would provide a warning to the user of the problem coming up. I think (without any evidence) that it would take more track than I have to get to that point though. In addition, I do have power drops around the track (maybe not enough but some evenly spaced around it), so this should never happen to me. Sorry about Godzilla and King Kong. I will make sure they are included in my next video. If things go as planned, it will be the three excursion trains together, though I have a train I am waiting for that might make its own video when it comes in (hopefully in December). It is a model of a German train from the period around 1870-1900.
Well, sort of. There is no definitive answer because each layout and locomotive is different. I could run 17 on my layout with the Zephyr if I was careful which locomotives I chose. And I did find out that the Digitrax Evox command stations run a much larger number of locomotives at one time. With the Evox system, the question is no longer what the system will run, but how many I can control at one time before they crash because my reflexes/responses are too slow.
Hi Steve. Here's to a happy, safe, healthy, and train-filled New Year in 2023 for you and your family! Take care, my friend.
Thanks, Ed. I hope you and your family also have a very happy, healthy, and prosperous 2023.
Love Your Layout.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Had A Good thanks giving.
Happy holidays!
1. You need evenly spaced and lots of feeders, the more you have the less voltage drop.
2. The locomotive onboard capacitor size affects the voltage drop.
3. Adding a power booster but skipping feeders will only help that section that has them.
4. The furthest point from your power supply on your trackplan will be the lowest voltage as you lose power the farther away you get.
Thanks for those points. I do have evenly spaced drops around the layout, but the two questions were always how far apart should the drops be and how many locomotives can you power with one supply. My son and I are disagreeing on the number of drops needed and whether it needs more power or not. We are going to add drops anyway because I agree with point 3 about them being needed for the booster to work anyway. But I think we will need the booster too. Right now we have not even added any drops for the trolley loop, which is four more engines drawing down the power (though they are all without sound).
But the four passenger trains I will run on a regular basis are all built with multi-locomotive consists. One has just two but one has four and the other two are three each. To me, that is a lot of power being drawn from just the Zephyr. I figure a power booster can't hurt even if I really don't need it and it will provide insurance to keep things going.
@@Rothstein_Model_Trains do not underestimate multi loco consists . I run lots of abba ABA etc and that’s 3-4 motors. Plus the n scale is prob pulling a longer train more weight and uphill vs the Ho and you see what the zephyr is a beginner pack only.
Thanks. I am not sure I understand your point about underestimating the MU consists though. I counted each engine in the consist equally, but you make it sound as if the total current draw for the consist is more than if the same number of locomotives is running individually. Is that correct?
I do understand that the Zephyr is a beginner's station and I am looking at replacing it later, after I get the booster. My next question on the Zephyr is if the limit of ten locomotives in the memory applies when I am using extra throttles too. I need to research that point more because that might be part of the trouble I have controlling more than the 12 I did have on it.
@@Rothstein_Model_Trains get a system with 99+ locos and sufficient amperage 5-8 amps depending on expansion plans. If the throttle will allow you more locos yes you need a booster which you said. But it’s a bandaid. I started with a empire builder 5 amps and I’m now adding 2 boosters and wireless years later.
I am looking at the new Digitrax Evox systems. I think you are right that I have outgrown the capabilities of the Zephyr and need to upgrade.
The issue is in using Kato track for a large, permanent layout. Kato as a rule makes outstanding products, but their track really isn’t designed for that. What Kato produces is top shelf toy track. Power drops on larger layouts using Kato track are a given.
There are a number of reasons why you would be losing power with the Kato track, but the most likely culprit is the switches. When deciding where to put the power leads you would start by having one on each side of every switch.
Evenly spacing the feeders with Kato track is not the answer. When using flex track, like Atlas or Peco, you have a joint every 3' +/-, so even spacing is the logical answer. With Kato, you may have a dozen pieces of track over a 3' stretch. In this case it's more about the number of joints between feeds than the distance.
Another tip is to be sure that not only is the track pushed together well laterally, but vertically as well. Run your fingers over the joints. No doubt you’ll discover some surprisingly large offsets. With fingers on each rail on both sides of the joint, press each piece down firmly to be sure that the tops of the rails are at the same height.
Lastly, take a pair of needle nose pliers and give each rail joiner a gentle squeeze (yes, on each side of every joint) once you have your track plan finalized. All the side-to-side action when assembling and disassembling track loosens the rail joiners.
I am not sure I agree with you that Unitrack is not a good choice for a permanent layout, but I do like the two points you made about the number of joints between feeds and the possible expansion of the joints from disassembling the layout while working on it.
It makes sense to me that the joints have a different resistance than the track itself, so the number of joints affects the current flow more than flex track in the same distance. I had not thought of that and was considering the distance between the drops.
I agree that it does have a problem with the vertical alignment at times. I had learned about that earlier when some of my steam locomotives would jump the track at specific joints. There is very little pressure on some of the pilot trucks (especially in the Big Boy) and the bump would make the pilot jump and cause derailments. In addition to pushing them down to be even, you can take a file and smooth out the joint. I recommend doing that only after you are sure of the layout because it could make the problem worse if the two pieces of track get moved and joined to other track.
I also agree about putting the drops on both sides of every turnout. The only time I do not do this is if I have a section I deliberately want left unpowered. Kato turnouts are power routing, so I sometimes take advantage of that to have a parking track that shuts the locomotive down when I set the switch back to the main route.
fun!
Definitely fun. And educational sometimes too.
I stopped at 12 on the DCS52, many MU units
Thanks, 12 is what I found I could reliably control also. I had it up to 17 locos running but some were acting erratically, so I dropped it back down.
I figure it gets me to either 5 or 6 trains since I almost always will have MU's on them.
I'm swapping my NCE Powercab to the Digitrax DCS52 Zephyr Express. The NCE works well but I feel that the Digitrax has more/better features.
I have no experience with the NCE, but I still use the Zephyr on one of my layouts. It works well, especially with a remote throttle plugged in to make it easier to run multiple trains.
Does this go for ho scale or is the scenario different?
The basic principles will be the same. The command station only puts out so many amps and each locomotive will draw so much. At some point you will run out of power and need boosters. The big difference will be how many locos you can run, since HO scale will take more power per loco, but the HO setting on the command station may put out more amperage than the N scale setting.
And in both cases, getting enough feeders properly spaced around the track will make a big difference to how well the trains run.
What N scale company do you think is it best?
Kato is my personal favorite right now, but Scaletrains is very good. My only real point against Scaletrains is they are expensive, but it seems to be worth every thing I paid for it. The UP Turbine Big Blow is my first Scaletrains model and I will buy more. I also like Broadway Limited Imports and have several from them. There are some mixed reviews of BLI on the web though.
Hi Steve! Great experiment you ran. So now we know you feel comfortable running 10 locomotives with the Digitrax Zephyr and track layout that you have. My next question would be how much effect does the drag of the non-powered cars behind the locomotive have on the voltage drop. In other words, if each of the 10 locomotives was pulling 5 freight or passenger cars, could you still run 10 locomotives at once? If the drag of pulling the cars meant you could have only 8 locomotives, then would pulling 10 freight or passenger cars per locomotive mean you could have only 5 or 6 locomotives?
My other [unrealistic] question, based on what Montana & Wyoming said in their comment #4, is what would happen if all the engines were coupled together? Would you then see a voltage drop at the farthest point from the power supply such that the engines might all stop from lack of voltage? Please DO NOT try this experiment. I don't want you to burn out your engines.
Great video, but I missed seeing King Kong and Godzilla! LOL
Hi, Ed. Yep, I feel comfortable with ten locomotives at a time without the booster. I do not know how much extra power is eaten up with the drag of the rest of the train, but I am guessing it will not be as significant as the sound draw is. Sound eats up a lot more power than most people think. I think we will still use a limit of ten locomotives when i put the cars back on. To be honest though, with the trains instead of just the locomotives, there is not nearly as much space for as many trains at one time so the engine count will be lower.
As for your unrealistic question, I don't know the answer. If I were running a consist of say 10 locomotives and had no drops to move the power, the resistance of the track would make the voltage drop greatest at the farthest point from my one connection point. As the consist approached that point, it would start slowing down from a lack of power (I think anyway). This would provide a warning to the user of the problem coming up. I think (without any evidence) that it would take more track than I have to get to that point though. In addition, I do have power drops around the track (maybe not enough but some evenly spaced around it), so this should never happen to me.
Sorry about Godzilla and King Kong. I will make sure they are included in my next video. If things go as planned, it will be the three excursion trains together, though I have a train I am waiting for that might make its own video when it comes in (hopefully in December). It is a model of a German train from the period around 1870-1900.
The question remains unanswered!
Well, sort of. There is no definitive answer because each layout and locomotive is different. I could run 17 on my layout with the Zephyr if I was careful which locomotives I chose. And I did find out that the Digitrax Evox command stations run a much larger number of locomotives at one time.
With the Evox system, the question is no longer what the system will run, but how many I can control at one time before they crash because my reflexes/responses are too slow.