I would highly recommend J.I. Packer’s book “Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God” to anyone struggling to understand this better. It is easy to read, easy to understand, and not a long book. He wrote it before his more well-known book “Knowing God”.
If Christ didn't die for all then everyone in hell can say God's offer for salvation wasn't genuine.. Limited atonement contradicts all scripture of mans responsibility for salvation. God offer for salvation for all is a honest offer God desires all to be saved
Yes as all are commanded to have faith in Christ and repent. Biblically everything for salvation comes from God and yet there is personal responsibility to repent and believe.
@@Habackuk24 Do you believe? Faith is the evidence. First, do you believe [trust and rely on] that Jesus is indeed the crucified and risen Son of God? Yes -then you believe. Therefore, He died for you.
@@28reynoldsburg, Thanks, I appreciate that. I ought to clarify that I don't doubt that Christ died for me, but that is because I believe that Christ died for all sinners. So how do I know that Christ died for me? Because I know I'm a sinner. If I have to know that I have faith before I can know that Christ died for me, that puts me in a difficult position. A non-believer and even a non-elect (I do belive in election) could believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was cruficied and rose again. I assume that many popes believed that, while trusting in their own works for salvation. So in order for me to have true faith, something more is needed. John MacArthur says that there are signs of a true faith: Love (for God, for the Bible, for the Church, and for the lost), humility etc, are signs that I have truly been converted. That is true, in and of itself, but if I base my assurance on that, I'm going to stumble. My love is imperfect, and it is mixed with all kinds of bad motives. And my humility, when I look at it, is often something that is meant to look good in other people's eyes. The more I look into my heart, the more sin I see. But I am not too troubled by that, since I base my assurance on the fact that Christ died for sinners. I appreciate Phil Johnson very much, and I think he often is a breath of fresh air, but on this point I cannot follow him.
Given that the Bible clearly speaks of false believers who think themselves saved, how can the non-Calvinist have assurance of anything? The answer to both questions is that the Bible instructs the professing believer to examine himself to see if he is in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
@@nickeldan you can't know for certain you are saved because the atonement was for only a specific few. You could be one of the many Christ didnt die for. On top of that, your profession of faith isn't assurance because your faith was caused by God. Also, your reprobation will be caused by God so your faith is without assurance. Your fruit may be fruit of a reprobate. On the other hand, i know for a fact He died for me because He died for everyone. I received that atonement thru faith. No free will...no assurance...
@Chris Stevens Like I said, the Bible directs us to distinguish between true and false faith. Having free will doesn’t absolve you of this duty. There are many people who think themselves saved, who would tell you that they have trusted in Christ, and yet are unsaved. I, as a Calvinist, can have true assurance by trusting in the promises of God that all who out their trust in Christ will find Him to be a perfect savior for them in particular. I can also use the Scripture that God has provided to examine myself, as I am commanded to do. If your argument is that I could be mistaken in my examination, then I respond that merely having free will doesn’t solve the issue. How do you know that your free will decision to trust Christ was the result of genuine faith and not a false faith?
@@nickeldan i know my free will decision was genuine because of a few premises that i believe you can't hold. You cant hold to: 1. I believe thru a free will choice that i made 2. Christ died for me because He died for everyone. You can hold to: 1 john describes me. Result: You cant know for certain Christ died for you and that God didnt originate your false profession of faith due to the bible describing that false believers are possible because you believe God ordained false confessions. I hope this clarifies my position. Yes?
If one believes Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell! This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished! If this is true then Jesus does not save anyone! This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!
The bible says we are save by grace through faith, not as our selves but as a gift, but it also says that god wants to save everyone and jesus died for all. Calvinism is a systematic rationalization. Please check out Leightton Flowers youtube channel, he goes into all of these doctrines in detail and with respect to Calvinist while being an Armenian.
....God wants to save everyone who BELIEVES and Jesus saves everybody who BELIEVES. The truth is only the called Will BELIEVE. Those that He foreknew ,He predestined,those He predestined He called,those He called He justified,and those thar He justified He glorified.
Personally, I am aghast and agog that 2000 years of theologians pondering the scriptural teaching about the death of Jesus that they still refer to it as an "atonement" and still speak of "the value of the merit" of it. Nowhere is the death of Christ said to be an atonement and there is no discussion of any "meritt" that it bestows on anyone. Never. It speaks of the death as a "propitiation" and tells us that the righteousness of God is the forgiveness of sins. An atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins. A propitiation is made by a judge who is inclined to forgiveness of the sins of an innocent or repentant person, to be vindicated for their "failure" to execute vengeance. It was God the Judge of All who made propitiation by offering the suffering of his own son to demonstrate to the public that he did not negligently or flippantly forgive sinners who had harmed others because he too was a victim of their treachery. That justification is forgiveness, not vicariously earned merit is easy to show: [Luk 24:47 NLT] (47) It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.' [Luk 1:77 NLT] (77) You will tell his people how to find salvation through forgiveness of their sins. [Act 2:38 NLT] (38) Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [Act 26:18 NLT] (18) to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God's people, who are set apart by faith in me.' [Jas 5:20 NLT] (20) you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins. So "Limited Atonement" needs to go back to the drawing board and start all over. Also, the elect were the remnant of Israel that Jesus was sent to gather - the lost sheep - as told of Ezekiel 37 and Isiah 10:21 and elsewhere: [Isa 10:21-22 NLT] (21) A remnant will return; yes, the remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. (22) But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people. [Jer 44:14 NLT] (14) Of that remnant who fled to Egypt, hoping someday to return to Judah, there will be no survivors. Even though they long to return home, only a handful will do so." These elect were the firstfruits that followed the Lambkin wherever he went on the shores of Galilee, etc. aka the 144,000. The great crowd are as innumerable as the stars of the heaven and the sand of the sea.
Did you just claim that they sacrifice of Christ was not an atonement? Have you not read the NT. There are literally entire passages of scripture that address this, are you missing these parts in your Bible? What do you imagine Hebrews 10 is talking about?
@@Phill0old As I tried to explain, an atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins. [Leviticus 17:11 NET] (11) for the life of every living thing is in the blood. So I myself have assigned it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life. What Hebrews explains is that what Jesus' death accomplished (among other things) was to ratify the New Covenant, that provided for the free forgiveness of sins: [Hebrews 10:8-18 NKJV] (8) Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and [offerings] for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure [in them]" (which are offered according to the law), (9) then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (10) By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. (11) And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, (13) from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. (14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (15) But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, (16) "This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," (17) [then He adds], "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." (18) Now where there is remission of these, [there is] no longer an offering for sin.
I've never heard anyone say if there was one more sinner would Christ have to suffer more on the cross. That's obvious. That is not smart. Sorry but it angers me some. It makes no sense at all and it makes him sound ignorant bc I think this guy just made that up, bc nobody is arguing over that question or even talking about that.
Better would be to not call yourself a calvinist, did Calvin died for you? BTW, people didnt realize Bible says that Jesus is God's mystery. If you want to offer a solution for salvation for everybody would you make it a mystery? Think about it.
I would highly recommend J.I. Packer’s book “Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God” to anyone struggling to understand this better. It is easy to read, easy to understand, and not a long book. He wrote it before his more well-known book “Knowing God”.
Great sermon.
Christ died for all sufficiently
And died for the elect effectively
If Christ didn't die for all then everyone in hell can say God's offer for salvation wasn't genuine..
Limited atonement contradicts
all scripture of mans responsibility for salvation.
God offer for salvation for all is a honest offer
God desires all to be saved
Faith is a gift, do poeple have a choice where to place thier faith?
Yes as all are commanded to have faith in Christ and repent. Biblically everything for salvation comes from God and yet there is personal responsibility to repent and believe.
Phil Johnson has a sermons called Charles Spurgeon and hyper calvinism that I believe answers the question you raised
This is good!!
Excellent!
Great!
The question is: Did He die for me? And how do I know?
Anyone who wants to be saved can.
If you trust in Christ then that means you are of the elect.
@@aleczamora6993 How do I get to trust that Christ died for me? Is the Word od God sufficient for that, or do I have to look into myself?
@@Habackuk24 Do you believe?
Faith is the evidence.
First, do you believe [trust and rely on] that Jesus is indeed the crucified and risen Son of God?
Yes -then you believe.
Therefore, He died for you.
@@28reynoldsburg, Thanks, I appreciate that.
I ought to clarify that I don't doubt that Christ died for me, but that is because I believe that Christ died for all sinners. So how do I know that Christ died for me? Because I know I'm a sinner.
If I have to know that I have faith before I can know that Christ died for me, that puts me in a difficult position. A non-believer and even a non-elect (I do belive in election) could believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was cruficied and rose again. I assume that many popes believed that, while trusting in their own works for salvation. So in order for me to have true faith, something more is needed.
John MacArthur says that there are signs of a true faith: Love (for God, for the Bible, for the Church, and for the lost), humility etc, are signs that I have truly been converted. That is true, in and of itself, but if I base my assurance on that, I'm going to stumble. My love is imperfect, and it is mixed with all kinds of bad motives. And my humility, when I look at it, is often something that is meant to look good in other people's eyes. The more I look into my heart, the more sin I see.
But I am not too troubled by that, since I base my assurance on the fact that Christ died for sinners.
I appreciate Phil Johnson very much, and I think he often is a breath of fresh air, but on this point I cannot follow him.
I forgot the link to John MacArthur speaking about doubt and assurance (two and a half minute):
th-cam.com/video/sQvcySnF3-o/w-d-xo.html
If Christ didn't die for everyone, how can the calvinist have assurance of anything?
Given that the Bible clearly speaks of false believers who think themselves saved, how can the non-Calvinist have assurance of anything? The answer to both questions is that the Bible instructs the professing believer to examine himself to see if he is in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
@@nickeldan you can't know for certain you are saved because the atonement was for only a specific few. You could be one of the many Christ didnt die for. On top of that, your profession of faith isn't assurance because your faith was caused by God. Also, your reprobation will be caused by God so your faith is without assurance.
Your fruit may be fruit of a reprobate.
On the other hand, i know for a fact He died for me because He died for everyone. I received that atonement thru faith. No free will...no assurance...
@Chris Stevens Like I said, the Bible directs us to distinguish between true and false faith.
Having free will doesn’t absolve you of this duty. There are many people who think themselves saved, who would tell you that they have trusted in Christ, and yet are unsaved.
I, as a Calvinist, can have true assurance by trusting in the promises of God that all who out their trust in Christ will find Him to be a perfect savior for them in particular. I can also use the Scripture that God has provided to examine myself, as I am commanded to do.
If your argument is that I could be mistaken in my examination, then I respond that merely having free will doesn’t solve the issue. How do you know that your free will decision to trust Christ was the result of genuine faith and not a false faith?
@@nickeldan i know my free will decision was genuine because of a few premises that i believe you can't hold.
You cant hold to:
1. I believe thru a free will choice that i made
2. Christ died for me because He died for everyone.
You can hold to:
1 john describes me.
Result:
You cant know for certain Christ died for you and that God didnt originate your false profession of faith due to the bible describing that false believers are possible because you believe God ordained false confessions.
I hope this clarifies my position. Yes?
@@nickeldan Don't worry about the other guy, he's extremely confused.
If one believes Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... he accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell!
This would mean that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than what Jesus accomplished!
If this is true then Jesus does not save anyone! This would mean you are saved by “something other than Jesus”... if you end up in heaven!
Right.
And not only that, those that do end up in heaven did so because of what they themselves did.
The bible says we are save by grace through faith, not as our selves but as a gift, but it also says that god wants to save everyone and jesus died for all. Calvinism is a systematic rationalization. Please check out Leightton Flowers youtube channel, he goes into all of these doctrines in detail and with respect to Calvinist while being an Armenian.
....God wants to save everyone who BELIEVES and Jesus saves everybody who BELIEVES.
The truth is only the called Will BELIEVE.
Those that He foreknew ,He predestined,those He predestined He called,those He called He justified,and those thar He justified He glorified.
@@chrismachin2166 “BELIEVING” is the evidence of being saved... not the means that saves!
@@Kine-re6nq Flowers is regularly dismantled by James White. The man could not exegete his way out of a paper bag.
Personally, I am aghast and agog that 2000 years of theologians pondering the scriptural teaching about the death of Jesus that they still refer to it as an "atonement" and still speak of "the value of the merit" of it. Nowhere is the death of Christ said to be an atonement and there is no discussion of any "meritt" that it bestows on anyone. Never. It speaks of the death as a "propitiation" and tells us that the righteousness of God is the forgiveness of sins.
An atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins.
A propitiation is made by a judge who is inclined to forgiveness of the sins of an innocent or repentant person, to be vindicated for their "failure" to execute vengeance. It was God the Judge of All who made propitiation by offering the suffering of his own son to demonstrate to the public that he did not negligently or flippantly forgive sinners who had harmed others because he too was a victim of their treachery.
That justification is forgiveness, not vicariously earned merit is easy to show:
[Luk 24:47 NLT] (47) It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.'
[Luk 1:77 NLT] (77) You will tell his people how to find salvation through forgiveness of their sins.
[Act 2:38 NLT] (38) Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[Act 26:18 NLT] (18) to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God's people, who are set apart by faith in me.'
[Jas 5:20 NLT] (20) you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.
So "Limited Atonement" needs to go back to the drawing board and start all over.
Also, the elect were the remnant of Israel that Jesus was sent to gather - the lost sheep - as told of Ezekiel 37 and Isiah 10:21 and elsewhere:
[Isa 10:21-22 NLT] (21) A remnant will return; yes, the remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. (22) But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people.
[Jer 44:14 NLT] (14) Of that remnant who fled to Egypt, hoping someday to return to Judah, there will be no survivors. Even though they long to return home, only a handful will do so."
These elect were the firstfruits that followed the Lambkin wherever he went on the shores of Galilee, etc. aka the 144,000. The great crowd are as innumerable as the stars of the heaven and the sand of the sea.
You have a disconnect in understanding the Old T., and how it relates to the NewT.
@@28reynoldsburg Show me.
@@28reynoldsburg How so?
Did you just claim that they sacrifice of Christ was not an atonement? Have you not read the NT.
There are literally entire passages of scripture that address this, are you missing these parts in your Bible? What do you imagine Hebrews 10 is talking about?
@@Phill0old As I tried to explain, an atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins.
[Leviticus 17:11 NET] (11) for the life of every living thing is in the blood. So I myself have assigned it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life.
What Hebrews explains is that what Jesus' death accomplished (among other things) was to ratify the New Covenant, that provided for the free forgiveness of sins:
[Hebrews 10:8-18 NKJV] (8) Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and [offerings] for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure [in them]" (which are offered according to the law), (9) then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. (10) By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. (11) And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, (13) from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. (14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (15) But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, (16) "This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," (17) [then He adds], "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." (18) Now where there is remission of these, [there is] no longer an offering for sin.
I've never heard anyone say if there was one more sinner would Christ have to suffer more on the cross. That's obvious. That is not smart. Sorry but it angers me some. It makes no sense at all and it makes him sound ignorant bc I think this guy just made that up, bc nobody is arguing over that question or even talking about that.
Suffering is not redemptive.
Better would be to not call yourself a calvinist, did Calvin died for you?
BTW, people didnt realize Bible says that Jesus is God's mystery. If you want to offer a solution for salvation for everybody would you make it a mystery? Think about it.