At least they still sound like their old selves, the motors, the clunk clunk of the wheels and even the whine you heard while stationary! They will never loose their glamour :)
Nigel winn probably the baddest use a train can ever get being designed as a cheap metal junk and now upgraded into a plastic box in wheels. Oh what happened in the tests THE TRAIN GOT ON FIRE!! NO WAY after the fire VivaFAIL has become a joke of his own by not upgrading a train to its needs and not delivering a reliable stock to passengers i won't be surpassed if the train goes on fire again at that time i hope the project stops and the trains be scrapped
citytransportinfo I'm critical of them being used where sprinter types should be used. However, I wonder if they light be suited to the Newcastle Metro network?
Use them for really minor lines like Greenford - West Ealing, Bromley North - Grove Park or even Romford - Upminster, but not commuter services for the North. Thank god they have seen since and told Vivarail to sling their hook!
I have to say I was very sceptical when the idea of converting these Ex LT D Sock trains for National Rail usage was first mooted a hair brained scheme if ever there was one. Having now seen this video I've got to eat humble pie as Vivarail have hopefully succeeded. I just hope that with the ever competitive market out there for new builds for trains they can find a niche. I like the interior module options available too which should help marketing.
Thanks :-) I am looking forward to riding one in public service. I just hope that its not too far from London! (Greenford shuttle would be nice, perhaps though for the battery electric version)
Super video there, very informative. I do like the concept of this new train, and the finish looks to a very good quality from your shots. With the various seating options an a "bi-modal" option on the horizon I hope this project succeeds.
Very nice and a credit to Viarail for getting this far. Hope all goes well for them and the D-trains err. .sorry D stock. They must had been built to last back in the day😁
I agree, although to be pedantic its only part of the fleet that is being saved. I say this because Vivarail have only taken Driving Motors and Trailers. The UNDM (uncoupling non-driving motors are being scrapped.
Really pleased to see these having a new life, they were one of LU's most reliable trains and I liked their unpretentious, uncluttered design. I'm sorry they had to change the cab ends though, the originals looked great.
To anyone hating on the D Stock conversion might want to remember that DfT have said they will not be funding the building of any new Diesel stock as the long term plan is to electrify the entire rail network in England in the next 20-30 years. The diesel engines that have been fitted to the new IETs are only there as a temporary measure until the full electrification of the Great Western and East coast mainline is completed. Even with the IETs they are only small engines to power up the Electric traction similar to what they have done with the D Stock. Once they have finally fully electrified in 15-20 years time then Hitachi will remove the Diesel engines. Until then all Diesels will need to be built in this way and let's face it anything is better than the Pacers.
No Chris. Many electrification schemes are being cancelled and most are now being either new diesels or bi-mode. There has been little or no interest to the class 230 except for the Marston Vale line.
Very interesting to see and thank you for pointing out changes,. Would be great to hear what these sound like when pulling away from rest through to a normal operational speed? So from the sound I presume original traction motors are retained, with diesel generating power, so these ares DEMUs now. Looks neat, I wish the project well. Good video, thank you, best I've seen to explain these.
With Network Rail having made a complete hash of electrification, the wiring of the Cardiff valleys is likely to recede even further, so these might be the answer, at least in the short term. A small fleet could replace the Pacers for a start and then remain for any lines that do not get wired. I think that VivaRail seem to have produced a good product.
Engineering ? What engineering has gone into these ? More like a refurb. They'll still have the same dreadful ride quality and poor NVH as when they were tubes.
They've done a great job with the refurbishment. They look a lot better than many a newer sprinter or pacer that rumble around the north. Shame they didn't fit a/c.
I think this is a great idea - these trains are too good to for scrap - unlike some have said, the ride is actually very good. Nice to still hear some familiar D stock sounds! Seems they could be an excellent (maybe temporary) solution on the Valley Lines where the existing diesel Pacers have had their day. These would be a vast improvement and suited to the frequent stops and high loading of those lines. I think we've got to get past the idea that everything has to be new all the time - there's lots of life in these, and Vivarail have done an excellent job IMHO.
No, no, no. Major commuter services outside of London should not have to make do with effing old LU Sub surface stock form the 1980's. That is utter crap. They should have new trains like London and the South East.
mjosiah1 I agreed in many ways, and London definitely gets the lions share of the money, however new rolling stock is not going to come until contracts change (on the valley lines) and with the uncertainty about electrification, these could make a real improvement as a stop gap until new rolling stock can be built.
And that proves my point. Stop gap electrification on the regions are put on hold whilst Crossrail 2 at 30 Billion has been approved. This is why people are getting angry.
mjosiah1 I don't think Crossrail 2 is approved by any means - but quite agree with your point - there should be more equity about where money is spent. Where I live, a tiny proportion of the money spent in London could make a huge difference to public transport. Electrification of the Great Western line (and others) has been part postponed, which is lunacy. However, in uncertain times, I still say that any solution (such as this) that improves the lot of the travelling public can only be good.
Huh, interesting that they have an old Midland Metro tram there. I've heard somewhere that there's the possibility of reintroducing the T68's on the Line 2 route if it's ever built, but I'm not sure how reliable that is and I can't remember where I heard it now.
Looks like an excellent short term alternative to the pacers. They could be used as a stop gap between the current pacers and new 'proper' DMUs, since they take so long to build! The quality of the rebuild is actually surprisingly good in my opinion but perhaps a little less District Green would make it feel more like an actual train, rather than a refurbished Underground one.
The North does not need another stop gap. New Trains for the North please, and that is what they are getting plus cascade trains suitable for commuter services.
Of course the North needs new trains, however they will take quite a while to build - what I think should happen is that these trains, which are readily and immediately available, and are of much greater quality than the pacers, should be used until the new trains arrive.
No they should not because they are not suitable for the vast commuter network in the North. They are old Metro trains. Remember this has been going on for over 2 years now and not a single one is in revenue service. They could have ordered more new trains for the North. I wish people would stop viewing Northern Rail services as some heritage railway. Anyway more converted Class 319's will fix the gap and they are more suitable.
The toilet should of been at the end on the trailer car as it looks weird being in the middle of the train and be hind it, at 6:45 it looks like it's only panels
Silent Hunter correct.. central line running I believe. Those 92(?) stock trains are to be replaced too. I wonder if they'll get cascaded to the Isle of Wight ?
Too big for the tunnel near Ryde. It regularly flooded, so they raised the trackbed up, any rolling stock of normal mainline size won't have enough clearance. Did wonder why the 1959/62 tube cars weren't considered, but these were ally bodies on steel underframes and rotted out, or so I was told. So 38 stock it had to be. 59/62 stock was basically a 38 unit but with bonded rubber suspension and striplights.
They look like a brand-new train being testes even though many rail enthusiasts (me included) know that they were new as London Underground D78-stock. I wonder why Ford engines were selected instead of Cummins, who I know suggested their QSX15 diesel engine according to one of my Modern Railways magazine (October 2014 issue I think). It was also suggested I believe that the D78's were to be Class 278's. When I saw a picture of a D-stock train, I imagined a Cummins QSK19 engine starting up. Perhaps that's my favourite DMU engine for starting up. The engine itself is far too reliable 😀👍! The Class 230 will be extremely handy for the only 6-minute journey to and from Slough and Windsor & Eton Central which the maximum speed required I believe is around 40 / 50mph only but less than 60mph. Class 165's (I believe mostly 2 coaches) are used on this route. I say this as I believe the Class 230 only has a 60mph maximum speed. If Great Western Railway took delivery of say 2 (1 for spare), they could reallocate the Class 165 elsewhere within their fleet. An addition 2 coaches on any of GWR's Class 165 routes passengers will welcome, particular for big events say in the big places like Bristol, Cardiff, London areas, Reading and Oxford.
I don't know enough to comment on engine type choices. As for a viable passenger service, what you suggest sounds good, although I was thinking of the Greenford shuttle.
If each car had the door configuration the middle car has, it would look more National Rail-Like to me. I do like that these unit are being reused for branchline service. They will fair better than the Pacers.
Thanks for your reply. I hope that they do get used on these routes, as there is much opposition from people who don't want what they see as recycled Underground trains.
+@@CitytransportInfoplus But should 20 seated passengers on older trains suddenly become part of 50 standing passengers accounted for in capacity figures on these D stock trains?
yes but the Pacer trains do use bodies based upon buses and an antiquated four wheel design of chassis that nowadays is rarely even used for goods wagons!
As an Underground enthusiast of long standing I think this film is excellent. I wondered if this train is still capable of 60 mph. Like the old A60 stock or the Met. Locos. Maybe they should reopen this line and use these units on it. Good idea but these units are to large for the Isle of Wight.
So will this still get a trail run on the Coventry to Nuneaton line? The only time I have seen this was when it was in Coventry Yard after the incident with one of the engines.
Nice idea of reconverting these stock in newer trains, but in my opinion, it could be better if the refurbishers install special traction motors to run over 750v DC 3rd railways...
So, your point? People of the regions are not happy and rightly so. Do not care if they are 40 times better than pacers because 1 Pacers are a very very low bar and 2 we are talking about 37 year old LU trains.
I think it’s a good idea and vivarail have made these old trains look good. At least the government don’t have to go and waste money on this railway like they have to the GWR mainline.
Buying new trains that are fit for purpose for today's railway a waste of money. These are old London Underground Subsurface stock. TfL does not want them. If they can find work on minor lines like Greenford - West Ealing, Bromley North - Grove Park or Romford - Upminster, great. I do not fancy the Class 230 chances though as there will be so many ex BREL stocks such as the Class 317 available and they more suited. So t maybe the scrappers yard for the vast majority of these.
mjosiah1 It’s not so much the age of the D stock. Most of the components have been fully replaced over time. They are still in a very fit condition. It’s not that they are old units. Age doesn’t matter so much. It’s the fact that they can be easily converted to mainline use. They have to be aswell due to the routes they parallel on the British rail network. Such as in Wimbledon and Richmond Etc.
Unless it still retains its tripcock it would not be allowed on any LUL-owned line. This means that it could only travel on the NR-owned sections of the Wimbledon and Richmond branches
citytransportinfo fairs, if it still got the tripcocks it would be nice if TfL lets vivarail do a rail tour to show us Londoners what they are being used for
Even the farewell Public A, C and D Stock trips were disgustingly not advertised to the public, with the usual endemic lack of info and publicity rife in the Useless U K.
I agree that the lack of publicity and information is annoying, but the UK is hardly rife with an endemic of uselessness. Our lives here are very comfortable, and its hardly the worst problem to have. Just my 2 cents worth, no offence intended.
Now Vivarail are filing for bankruptcy. No one could have predicted that selling refurbished pre-owned four decade old single-leaf door trains wouldn't be as lucrative a business as selling brand new state-of-the-art trains (!) Once they're in administration, their remaining D trains might sell for peanuts. 😆 This comment isn't a cheap pot-shot at this video or its creator, please note. 😅
@@CitytransportInfoplus one thing they did do well is showing what potential the D78 had in them. TfL replacing them with the S7 stock was a pointless vanity project in my opinion.
@@MACROPARTICLE one reason for scrapping the D stock was (probably) to fulfill an ambition that dated back to the 1930s - one type of train on the entire subsurface network. This also made automating the network easier.
they fitted diesel engines and generators so that the train retains its electric drive system. they are also making a version which is powered by batteries
Hey, city, don't listen to these anti-230s, just because Vivarail is reusing older trains. To me, i think this project is an exceptionally wonderful idea to not scrap them, as it should replace the pacers (definitely) and some others that are 20-30 years old. Here are some points of the good and bad: PROS: Reusing trains would may just be a little bit unreliable, but it's probably cheaper (like the Standard and 1938 tube stock to the Isle of wight) CONS: The interior may seem unsuitable for the retired metro trains (like the impressions before they ran them), as Vivarail would've had some more suitable seating. But, hey, it can be anyone's opinion. It's not the end of the world if it fails like the APT in 70s and 80s, but if it succeed I, commuters and rail enthusiasts would be enjoying their time on the D trains. Long live the 230!
Thanks for your support. I will be sad if this project fails. Despite the problems and setbacks It really should do well. I was sad when the APT project failed, and then when it was realised that tilting trains were the right solution but we would have to buy our trains from overseas.
Class 230 is great for Branch Lines like West Eailing to Greenford Upminster to Romford. But they should not be foisted on the Northern Commuter roures!
Not effing old Subsurface trains! The North should have a proper rolling stock policy, done at about the same time as the Rolling Stock approvals for the Thameslink, Crossrail, GWR and SWT rolling stock replacements. Any way the Class 230 is moot. They are not going to the North. Thank God. The North are getting new class 195 and 331 units and will receive cascades from elsewhere. The North deserves new trains not 35-40 years old metro trains.
Too big! From what I know of the IOW there is a tunnel where the track was raised to prevent flooding, and as a result these trains (and any other mainline sized trains) are too tall to pass through the tunnel. This explains why they have to use small profile tube trains.
Because of nostalgia? I've come across similar complaints about the R160 (and newer) stock in the New York City Subway, particularly from people who jerk off to the old stuff like the R32 and R46 stock.
They want to run more trains, which will require high acceleration and automatic train operation. Also the single leaf doors on the D stock aren't great for dwell times at busy stations.
Can air con be fitted, or would it thrash the diesel gensets too much? Whilst I like the old D stock and appreciate the concept, the old hopper windows on long rural journeys are just terrible. It really needs modern climate control.
Install a genset under the trailer car'd be the way to go. It could generate AC for modern aircon equipment. I've a friend on the Vivarail project and she agrees it's perfectly do-able.
Not the first time its happened - the Southend Corridor Express trains had toilets and whilst they were actually built by the London Tilbury and Southend Railway (LTSR) they travelled between Ealing Broadway and East Ham / Barking on tracks used by which we nowadays call District Line trains. These trains ran between Southend On Sea and Ealing Broadway hauled by steam locomotives or electric locomotives depending on where they were.
+Kacper Frankowski - I didn't mean it as in "wow that is actually side-splittingly hilarious"... And yes it is, which used to be used on the District Line, hence the reason I said "old District Line train"...
The D Stock will not be used for the District Line again, however they could be used for minor lines like Greenford to West Ealing or Bromley North - Grove Park.
I personally rather the loud diesel pacers because I rather listen to the engine than listening to people, and baby’s crying and that. In other words, the engine blocks all that shit out.
While feeling I ought to reserve comment until I have actually travelled on a Class 230, I can't help already feeling that the concept of an underground train (high capacity quick entry and exit, slow speed, not very good window visibility) is not really the right solution for the scenic national park Conwy Valley Line route that Transport for Wales intend to use them on. What would have been better is if they could have found some of those Swiss units with windows in the ceiling so people could sit in comfort and take in the spectacular scenery. They replace Class 150s which themselves have been awful in terms of window visibility and for years I have thought those responsible for the Conwy Valley Line just don't understand its USP (unique selling point) and potential and rather see it as a loss making problem they have to merely sustain in a tick box way.
They sure look nice but I hope this doesn't outright replace the Pacers. The Pacer users need new trains. I don't think it's right to replace a stop gap with another stop gap, especially when these trains are older and slower than the Classes 142, 3 & 4.
Slower maximum speed, but should be much faster accelerating and braking, so it may well take less time from station to station. They aren't just raw tube trains, but they've been modified a bit by the refurbishment. So I really don't see the problem.
I do, because the Northern Rail network is complex, and they show not be subjected to slow trains fouling up their schedules. Greenford - West Ealing, St Albans - Watford, Grove Park - Bromley North, Romford - Upminster use them on those lines.
also The North always get the shitty cast off trains from down South, if the trains aren't suitable for services down South then they're not suitable for services in the North.
well, right, Pacers ale also known as Class 142/143 and they are getting withdrawn right now and i think D stock could return, also pacers were build because of money problems
Very nice however if they are so good why get shut from London.i know it is allegedly a stop gap measure to replace they Leyland bus train they were only temporary as well.Modern safe trains are built with a monocoque construction with crumple zones .
At least they still sound like their old selves, the motors, the clunk clunk of the wheels and even the whine you heard while stationary! They will never loose their glamour :)
* lose
That's a good bit of reuse of old D stock.
Nigel winn probably the baddest use a train can ever get being designed as a cheap metal junk and now upgraded into a plastic box in wheels. Oh what happened in the tests THE TRAIN GOT ON FIRE!! NO WAY after the fire VivaFAIL has become a joke of his own by not upgrading a train to its needs and not delivering a reliable stock to passengers i won't be surpassed if the train goes on fire again at that time i hope the project stops and the trains be scrapped
I am really impressed by this train, a worthy future use for ex-D78 stock, lets hope there are some good sales for the 230 units, well-done Vivarail.
My sentiments exactly.
citytransportinfo I'm critical of them being used where sprinter types should be used. However, I wonder if they light be suited to the Newcastle Metro network?
Use them for really minor lines like Greenford - West Ealing, Bromley North - Grove Park or even Romford - Upminster, but not commuter services for the North. Thank god they have seen since and told Vivarail to sling their hook!
The different seating layouts and disabled loo look superb. TOC's should be snapping these up NOW!!
They've built something very similar to the DMU's that run on some minor German routes. They have ticket machines on board, too.
I have to say I was very sceptical when the idea of converting these Ex LT D Sock trains for National Rail usage was first mooted a hair brained scheme if ever there was one. Having now seen this video I've got to eat humble pie as Vivarail have hopefully succeeded. I just hope that with the ever competitive market out there for new builds for trains they can find a niche. I like the interior module options available too which should help marketing.
Somehow it's still got that D-Stock feeling.....really miss them :( but happy to see them back on the rails again!🙂
A brilliant concept and excellent re use of these far from life expired trains. Great video too
Thanks :-) I am looking forward to riding one in public service. I just hope that its not too far from London! (Greenford shuttle would be nice, perhaps though for the battery electric version)
Super video there, very informative. I do like the concept of this new train, and the finish looks to a very good quality from your shots. With the various seating options an a "bi-modal" option on the horizon I hope this project succeeds.
Thank you :-)
I share your aspirations and also look forward to seeing these enter mainstream public service
At least they have got 8 wheels per car. Would seem a shame to scrap them when they have life in them, Look quite modern. Good idea,
i can still hear some D Stock left in it I feel emotinal
It looks amazing and wow, very well done by VivaRail!
Very nice and a credit to Viarail for getting this far.
Hope all goes well for them and the D-trains err. .sorry D stock.
They must had been built to last back in the day😁
Nice to see the old D-Stock trains getting restored instead of scrapped :)
I agree, although to be pedantic its only part of the fleet that is being saved. I say this because Vivarail have only taken Driving Motors and Trailers. The UNDM (uncoupling non-driving motors are being scrapped.
That's a shame, at least some are saved.
Really pleased to see these having a new life, they were one of LU's most reliable trains and I liked their unpretentious, uncluttered design. I'm sorry they had to change the cab ends though, the originals looked great.
To anyone hating on the D Stock conversion might want to remember that DfT have said they will not be funding the building of any new Diesel stock as the long term plan is to electrify the entire rail network in England in the next 20-30 years. The diesel engines that have been fitted to the new IETs are only there as a temporary measure until the full electrification of the Great Western and East coast mainline is completed. Even with the IETs they are only small engines to power up the Electric traction similar to what they have done with the D Stock. Once they have finally fully electrified in 15-20 years time then Hitachi will remove the Diesel engines. Until then all Diesels will need to be built in this way and let's face it anything is better than the Pacers.
No Chris. Many electrification schemes are being cancelled and most are now being either new diesels or bi-mode. There has been little or no interest to the class 230 except for the Marston Vale line.
These are rather smart! Would actually quite like to see these get somewhere!
I am hoping that these will enter public service.
Very interesting to see and thank you for pointing out changes,.
Would be great to hear what these sound like when pulling away from rest through to a normal operational speed?
So from the sound I presume original traction motors are retained, with diesel generating power, so these ares DEMUs now.
Looks neat, I wish the project well.
Good video, thank you, best I've seen to explain these.
PS... I really like the way they sound like D stock too :-)
Well done, can't wait to see them in passenger service! a second life for a very respectful trainsets!
I am very hopeful. I really would like to see some of these used somewhere, even if it is overseas.
Not sure I like how the front is completely yellow. Prefer the slight bit of green.
With Network Rail having made a complete hash of electrification, the wiring of the Cardiff valleys is likely to recede even further, so these might be the answer, at least in the short term. A small fleet could replace the Pacers for a start and then remain for any lines that do not get wired. I think that VivaRail seem to have produced a good product.
Many years ago I saw a proposal that the Valleys should get tramtrains which could also rarvel through the streets of Cardiff as trams.
I love what they have done to modify the D stock. It looks very nice and relaxing almost. Any idea what TOC this train will be handed to?
Sorry I can only speculate. I have no insider information!
Clever bit of engineering. Looks like they've done a good job. I'll bet they make a fortune out of that project!
Engineering ? What engineering has gone into these ? More like a refurb.
They'll still have the same dreadful ride quality and poor NVH as when they were tubes.
Lewis72 oh, I expect so! Clever how they installed the generators to convert them to diesel electric though.
Aha! your brilliant investigative reports like this do soothe itches that I never imagined as ever needing to scratch.
They've done a great job with the refurbishment. They look a lot better than many a newer sprinter or pacer that rumble around the north. Shame they didn't fit a/c.
Rather have fresh air than be sealed in like most modern railtrash nowadays. Air Con on trains never works properly
They have done a first-class job to modernise these old District Line trains that were my locals, I gotta catch them but I don't know where they go.
Alas, so far they do not go anywhere - this film shows a special 'one off' use of this train.
West Midlands Trains have ordered 3 of them, whether they keep the order we'll just have to wait and see
I think this is a great idea - these trains are too good to for scrap - unlike some have said, the ride is actually very good. Nice to still hear some familiar D stock sounds! Seems they could be an excellent (maybe temporary) solution on the Valley Lines where the existing diesel Pacers have had their day. These would be a vast improvement and suited to the frequent stops and high loading of those lines. I think we've got to get past the idea that everything has to be new all the time - there's lots of life in these, and Vivarail have done an excellent job IMHO.
No, no, no. Major commuter services outside of London should not have to make do with effing old LU Sub surface stock form the 1980's. That is utter crap. They should have new trains like London and the South East.
mjosiah1 I agreed in many ways, and London definitely gets the lions share of the money, however new rolling stock is not going to come until contracts change (on the valley lines) and with the uncertainty about electrification, these could make a real improvement as a stop gap until new rolling stock can be built.
And that proves my point. Stop gap electrification on the regions are put on hold whilst Crossrail 2 at 30 Billion has been approved. This is why people are getting angry.
mjosiah1 I don't think Crossrail 2 is approved by any means - but quite agree with your point - there should be more equity about where money is spent. Where I live, a tiny proportion of the money spent in London could make a huge difference to public transport. Electrification of the Great Western line (and others) has been part postponed, which is lunacy. However, in uncertain times, I still say that any solution (such as this) that improves the lot of the travelling public can only be good.
Chris Graying and Sadiq Khan has agreed in prinicple that it will go ahead. There is just some issues regarding how to fund it
Does this make them sort of DEMU'S now?
sbaker190189 Yes
Huh, interesting that they have an old Midland Metro tram there. I've heard somewhere that there's the possibility of reintroducing the T68's on the Line 2 route if it's ever built, but I'm not sure how reliable that is and I can't remember where I heard it now.
I saw in another video that there're seveal 319s are in there too
Yeah, 319's that were replaced on Thameslink by the new class 700s are being stored there.
Vivarail have done a very excellent job of transforming them into class 230
Looks like an excellent short term alternative to the pacers. They could be used as a stop gap between the current pacers and new 'proper' DMUs, since they take so long to build! The quality of the rebuild is actually surprisingly good in my opinion but perhaps a little less District Green would make it feel more like an actual train, rather than a refurbished Underground one.
When used in public service I would hope to see it in the correct livery of the TOC - train operating company.
The North does not need another stop gap. New Trains for the North please, and that is what they are getting plus cascade trains suitable for commuter services.
Of course the North needs new trains, however they will take quite a while to build - what I think should happen is that these trains, which are readily and immediately available, and are of much greater quality than the pacers, should be used until the new trains arrive.
No they should not because they are not suitable for the vast commuter network in the North. They are old Metro trains. Remember this has been going on for over 2 years now and not a single one is in revenue service. They could have ordered more new trains for the North. I wish people would stop viewing Northern Rail services as some heritage railway. Anyway more converted Class 319's will fix the gap and they are more suitable.
nice! I haven't heard much of the 230s after one caught fire in December 2016!
The toilet should of been at the end on the trailer car as it looks weird being in the middle of the train and be hind it, at 6:45 it looks like it's only panels
Good on you Vivarail giving these things a new life will be a good (cheap?) end to the rattle bus pacer. (even though the super pacer looks nice)
I hope to see theses in use on northern rail and on the riviera line
They will NOT be used on Northern Rail. And a good job too!
you'll see 3 of them on West Midlands Trains
Just what is needed on the Isle of Wight.
Think the line there is profiled for the smaller tube stock.
Silent Hunter correct.. central line running I believe. Those 92(?) stock trains are to be replaced too. I wonder if they'll get cascaded to the Isle of Wight ?
When London gets the new tubes coming to most deep level lines the IOW could see maybe a 72 or 92 stock but these are more larger than a 32 stock
Too big for the tunnel near Ryde. It regularly flooded, so they raised the trackbed up, any rolling stock of normal mainline size won't have enough clearance. Did wonder why the 1959/62 tube cars weren't considered, but these were ally bodies on steel underframes and rotted out, or so I was told. So 38 stock it had to be. 59/62 stock was basically a 38 unit but with bonded rubber suspension and striplights.
The D stock seems to have a similar bogie rhythm to the 1973 stock, but I've heard they use the same bogies or something like that.
That's correct. The D stock is also the only SSR stock to use tube stock wheels.
Redesigned the bogies with a lighter material, still keeps the old, but more efficient
They look like a brand-new train being testes even though many rail enthusiasts (me included) know that they were new as London Underground D78-stock. I wonder why Ford engines were selected instead of Cummins, who I know suggested their QSX15 diesel engine according to one of my Modern Railways magazine (October 2014 issue I think). It was also suggested I believe that the D78's were to be Class 278's.
When I saw a picture of a D-stock train, I imagined a Cummins QSK19 engine starting up. Perhaps that's my favourite DMU engine for starting up. The engine itself is far too reliable 😀👍!
The Class 230 will be extremely handy for the only 6-minute journey to and from Slough and Windsor & Eton Central which the maximum speed required I believe is around 40 / 50mph only but less than 60mph. Class 165's (I believe mostly 2 coaches) are used on this route. I say this as I believe the Class 230 only has a 60mph maximum speed.
If Great Western Railway took delivery of say 2 (1 for spare), they could reallocate the Class 165 elsewhere within their fleet. An addition 2 coaches on any of GWR's Class 165 routes passengers will welcome, particular for big events say in the big places like Bristol, Cardiff, London areas, Reading and Oxford.
I don't know enough to comment on engine type choices.
As for a viable passenger service, what you suggest sounds good, although I was thinking of the Greenford shuttle.
I miss those trains
so that means that the s stock trains will replace the all subsurface tubes
Not to be confused with _Via_ Rail, which is the state-owned passenger train service…in 🇨🇦.
I'm not confused - especially as I have in the past used VIA services in Canada - and I hope to be able to do so again in the future!
If each car had the door configuration the middle car has, it would look more National Rail-Like to me. I do like that these unit are being reused for branchline service. They will fair better than the Pacers.
It might be that whoever wants the trains will want fewer doors... we shall see!
Can you walk through the whole train or are they separate carriagees
You can walk through each 3 car unit
citytransportinfo thanks now I know because I was going to say you can't walk through the carriages that's crap
Viva Rail demonstrating that you really can polish a turd!! Give it a lick of paint and strap a diesel motor to the bottom, hay-presto!
life and time goes on forwards with the S stocks replacing all subsurface lines.
I really miss the original D78 stock
Do you know what mainline routes these might run on in the future?
Thanks for your reply. I hope that they do get used on these routes, as there is much opposition from people who don't want what they see as recycled Underground trains.
Side seats of d stock repacing 2+2 and 2+3 layout trains mean there are less seats than before. Not good.
+@@CitytransportInfoplus
But should 20 seated passengers on older trains suddenly become part of 50 standing passengers accounted for in capacity figures on these D stock trains?
These would be great pacer replacements, however I don't think theres enough to go around to replace all the dreaded pacers :(
Hopefully they'll have solved the "overheating" issues.
This is a very good video.
Thank you :-)
Wait, how did they take the 3rd rail thing off
what do you mean? the power collection shoes?
Simple they unbolted it then took it off
Anyway at least these are trains not bus body's placed with waggon wheels
Transport for London Fan you mean pacers
yes but the Pacer trains do use bodies based upon buses and an antiquated four wheel design of chassis that nowadays is rarely even used for goods wagons!
As an Underground enthusiast of long standing I think this film is excellent. I wondered if this train is still capable of 60 mph. Like the old A60 stock or the Met. Locos. Maybe they should reopen this line and use these units on it. Good idea but these units are to large for the Isle of Wight.
I do not know if they could still reach or even exceed 60 mph. I am hoping that one day we will find out.
Um....I read somewhere that they can reach 60 mph, but no more.
This is what I expected crossrail to look like as in the interior of the newly refurbished d train
it would have been nice!
So will this still get a trail run on the Coventry to Nuneaton line? The only time I have seen this was when it was in Coventry Yard after the incident with one of the engines.
Maybe. At present - 6th July 2017 - I do not know. However from things that I have read local people would very much like to see this come to pass.
wait, so the old subsurface training trains are now the national rail
Nice idea of reconverting these stock in newer trains, but in my opinion, it could be better if the refurbishers install special traction motors to run over 750v DC 3rd railways...
No-one wants them for 750v railways though. There is no shortage of third rail EMUs, in fact many will be scrapped in the next few years.
The diesel genset produces 750Vdc, so third rail 750Vdc is easy, just install the correct pickup shoes. The battery pack is 750Vdc too.
Can you guys stop hating on this concept. D-trains with desel engines are at least 40 times better than the pacers from hell.
So, your point? People of the regions are not happy and rightly so. Do not care if they are 40 times better than pacers because 1 Pacers are a very very low bar and 2 we are talking about 37 year old LU trains.
I think it’s a good idea and vivarail have made these old trains look good. At least the government don’t have to go and waste money on this railway like they have to the GWR mainline.
As longer as they do not use them for busy commuter routes.
Buying new trains that are fit for purpose for today's railway a waste of money. These are old London Underground Subsurface stock. TfL does not want them. If they can find work on minor lines like Greenford - West Ealing, Bromley North - Grove Park or Romford - Upminster, great. I do not fancy the Class 230 chances though as there will be so many ex BREL stocks such as the Class 317 available and they more suited. So t maybe the scrappers yard for the vast majority of these.
mjosiah1 It’s not so much the age of the D stock. Most of the components have been fully replaced over time. They are still in a very fit condition. It’s not that they are old units. Age doesn’t matter so much. It’s the fact that they can be easily converted to mainline use. They have to be aswell due to the routes they parallel on the British rail network. Such as in Wimbledon and Richmond Etc.
I think this should do a rail tour on the district line
Unless it still retains its tripcock it would not be allowed on any LUL-owned line. This means that it could only travel on the NR-owned sections of the Wimbledon and Richmond branches
citytransportinfo fairs, if it still got the tripcocks it would be nice if TfL lets vivarail do a rail tour to show us Londoners what they are being used for
Adrian Shooter is a skillful train nerd... put Chiltern Railways on the map. I'm sure he's going to make a success of VivaRail.
I hope at least some of the D78 Stock are preserved as they are.
Even the farewell Public A, C and D Stock trips were disgustingly not advertised to the public, with the usual endemic lack of info and publicity rife in the Useless U K.
I agree that the lack of publicity and information is annoying, but the UK is hardly rife with an endemic of uselessness. Our lives here are very comfortable, and its hardly the worst problem to have. Just my 2 cents worth, no offence intended.
If you read messages at the District Dave forum then you have known about these things well in advance.
I really miss the original D stock train
Now Vivarail are filing for bankruptcy. No one could have predicted that selling refurbished pre-owned four decade old single-leaf door trains wouldn't be as lucrative a business as selling brand new state-of-the-art trains (!)
Once they're in administration, their remaining D trains might sell for peanuts. 😆
This comment isn't a cheap pot-shot at this video or its creator, please note. 😅
I am very sad to see Vivarail failing, I really thought that they had a good idea and would do well refurbishing and selling these trains.
@@CitytransportInfoplus one thing they did do well is showing what potential the D78 had in them. TfL replacing them with the S7 stock was a pointless vanity project in my opinion.
@@MACROPARTICLE one reason for scrapping the D stock was (probably) to fulfill an ambition that dated back to the 1930s - one type of train on the entire subsurface network. This also made automating the network easier.
@@MACROPARTICLE You may be interested to know that GWR has taken on 230001 as well as reportedly up to 90 of the stored D stock carriages.
@@karlosbricks2413 yeah, I'm aware of their Greenford branch trial. I wonder if First got those carriages at a bargain, you know, bankruptcy sale.
I love the tube trains....
0:02 VIVARAIL
...is it diesel train?
they fitted diesel engines and generators so that the train retains its electric drive system.
they are also making a version which is powered by batteries
Exterior still looks dated, but at least the inside is in good condition. Not much room for storage I see.
Hey, city, don't listen to these anti-230s, just because Vivarail is reusing older trains. To me, i think this project is an exceptionally wonderful idea to not scrap them, as it should replace the pacers (definitely) and some others that are 20-30 years old. Here are some points of the good and bad:
PROS: Reusing trains would may just be a little bit unreliable, but it's probably cheaper (like the Standard and 1938 tube stock to the Isle of wight)
CONS: The interior may seem unsuitable for the retired metro trains (like the impressions before they ran them), as Vivarail would've had some more suitable seating.
But, hey, it can be anyone's opinion. It's not the end of the world if it fails like the APT in 70s and 80s, but if it succeed I, commuters and rail enthusiasts would be enjoying their time on the D trains.
Long live the 230!
Thanks for your support. I will be sad if this project fails. Despite the problems and setbacks It really should do well.
I was sad when the APT project failed, and then when it was realised that tilting trains were the right solution but we would have to buy our trains from overseas.
Class 230 is great for Branch Lines like West Eailing to Greenford Upminster to Romford. But they should not be foisted on the Northern Commuter roures!
I think it should also go to Northern England to replace the (sighs) dreary and unreliable pacers. What should replace the pacers, then?
Not effing old Subsurface trains! The North should have a proper rolling stock policy, done at about the same time as the Rolling Stock approvals for the Thameslink, Crossrail, GWR and SWT rolling stock replacements. Any way the Class 230 is moot. They are not going to the North. Thank God. The North are getting new class 195 and 331 units and will receive cascades from elsewhere. The North deserves new trains not 35-40 years old metro trains.
mjosiah1.....230s on West Ealing-Greenford and Upminster-Romford?.....Great Idea.
So, basically a turd polishing exercise.
Glad to see they're making progress in replacing those Pacers :trollface:
What simulator is this? Good graphics.
LOL, a real train, not a simulation!
OMG
Will they still have the doors opening chime?
I suppose they will, as I think its a disability requirement for the benefit of the blind
Isle of Wight replacement stock, surely??
Too big!
From what I know of the IOW there is a tunnel where the track was raised to prevent flooding, and as a result these trains (and any other mainline sized trains) are too tall to pass through the tunnel.
This explains why they have to use small profile tube trains.
Oh dammit I didn't go on the refurbished D78 stock before it came out of service 😖
Nor did I go on the D78 trains before they were refurbished when they had the jazz stripe seat moquette fabric.
what service this are using?
A special service which operated for just two days in June 2017.
At present (July 2017) this train is not carrying passengers.
citytransportinfo but no service yat?
Bletchley to Bedford after Christmas 2018, I hear.
is this before the fire or after
After it was repaired, hopefully never to be repeated.
how much carriages did it have
Ger OKeeffe 3
3
where was this line?
Russell sawyer It links Honeybourne and Long Marston.
thanks for that.
It was a terrible idea for London Underground to replace them with the S stock (even if the trains weren't to be refurbished further).
Because of nostalgia?
I've come across similar complaints about the R160 (and newer) stock in the New York City Subway, particularly from people who jerk off to the old stuff like the R32 and R46 stock.
The trouble is that the D stock would not be able to keep up with the service they want to provide on the sub surface core.
Why?
They want to run more trains, which will require high acceleration and automatic train operation. Also the single leaf doors on the D stock aren't great for dwell times at busy stations.
I meant why does Macroparticle think that S Stock is a bad idea?
Wow! Looks like 1978 in 2017!
Someone should do something similar with class 317/313 and other old trains
its happening to 319 and possibly 321 too. I do not know about any other train types.
Wow! This looks *so* much better than a pacer! (Sarcasm intensifies that keyboard breaks)
One of these set on fire
This train. The cause was found and changes to made to stop it from happening again.
She's still a D78 Stock and not as much as her new D-Train Moniker
The expression "lipstick on a pig" comes to mind.
Can air con be fitted, or would it thrash the diesel gensets too much? Whilst I like the old D stock and appreciate the concept, the old hopper windows on long rural journeys are just terrible. It really needs modern climate control.
maybe, I am not sure
Install a genset under the trailer car'd be the way to go. It could generate AC for modern aircon equipment. I've a friend on the Vivarail project and she agrees it's perfectly do-able.
LMLMD they could probably just do a belt driven system instead and it'd work quiet well
Didn't it burned ?
It was recently repaired
So weird seeing a toilet on an old District Line train haha
Not the first time its happened - the Southend Corridor Express trains had toilets and whilst they were actually built by the London Tilbury and Southend Railway (LTSR) they travelled between Ealing Broadway and East Ham / Barking on tracks used by which we nowadays call District Line trains.
These trains ran between Southend On Sea and Ealing Broadway hauled by steam locomotives or electric locomotives depending on where they were.
Thats not funny! thats class 230 also known as Vivarail D78 Stock
+Kacper Frankowski - I didn't mean it as in "wow that is actually side-splittingly hilarious"...
And yes it is, which used to be used on the District Line, hence the reason I said "old District Line train"...
Can you do a trainspotting video
many of my films are trainspotting... although my next film will be about buses!
That MM tram is a T-69, the T-68/T-68A’s were the Metrolink trams for Manchester.
I am not very happy.
Pls bring back the D stock for London Underground.
Sean Lecca #BRING BACK THE D STOCK.
The D Stock will not be used for the District Line again, however they could be used for minor lines like Greenford to West Ealing or Bromley North - Grove Park.
It has been confirmed. The D stock will return.
If the D stock doesn't return my life is ended.
No problem with that as long as they do not use them for the busy commuter services of the North!
Those tall seats better not have the same rigidity as a 700's, they look similar :v
I personally rather the loud diesel pacers because I rather listen to the engine than listening to people, and baby’s crying and that. In other words, the engine blocks all that shit out.
While feeling I ought to reserve comment until I have actually travelled on a Class 230, I can't help already feeling that the concept of an underground train (high capacity quick entry and exit, slow speed, not very good window visibility) is not really the right solution for the scenic national park Conwy Valley Line route that Transport for Wales intend to use them on. What would have been better is if they could have found some of those Swiss units with windows in the ceiling so people could sit in comfort and take in the spectacular scenery. They replace Class 150s which themselves have been awful in terms of window visibility and for years I have thought those responsible for the Conwy Valley Line just don't understand its USP (unique selling point) and potential and rather see it as a loss making problem they have to merely sustain in a tick box way.
I should add that this is in no way a criticism of Vivarail who appear to be doing a great job here.
They sure look nice but I hope this doesn't outright replace the Pacers. The Pacer users need new trains. I don't think it's right to replace a stop gap with another stop gap, especially when these trains are older and slower than the Classes 142, 3 & 4.
Slower maximum speed, but should be much faster accelerating and braking, so it may well take less time from station to station. They aren't just raw tube trains, but they've been modified a bit by the refurbishment. So I really don't see the problem.
I do, because the Northern Rail network is complex, and they show not be subjected to slow trains fouling up their schedules. Greenford - West Ealing, St Albans - Watford, Grove Park - Bromley North, Romford - Upminster use them on those lines.
also The North always get the shitty cast off trains from down South, if the trains aren't suitable for services down South then they're not suitable for services in the North.
Still looks like it rides like a bag of nails! No new suspension by the look of it. (And a T69 Tram)
Not changed much still look like trains i would get in london with new seat covers and painted outside mmm
Well
Better for commuter becausr it will replace the Pacer from Thatchers government and
Recycling
Pacers are awful, should never have been built.
well, right, Pacers ale also known as Class 142/143 and they are getting withdrawn right now and i think D stock could return, also pacers were build because of money problems
life goes on
Bet Northern Rail use these as replacements for Pacers 😫
No I think they are using the new CAF units as replacements
The doomed d stock video you did the train might have been that train
Very nice however if they are so good why get shut from London.i know it is allegedly a stop gap measure to replace they Leyland bus train they were only temporary as well.Modern safe trains are built with a monocoque construction with crumple zones .
Lodon Underground is installing a new signalling system of which the D Stock cannot take advantage of.