Glad you mentioned unsprung mass. I think there is a reason rivian uses internal motors. But maybe these in-wheel motors would be good for small industrial vehicles, like forklifts. AFAIK they already use "airless" tyres and crazy multidirectional roller wheels.
IMO as long as the vehicle runs at a relatively low speed at a track that won't cause excessive vibration in-wheel motor is the best design since the simplicity of it makes maintenance relatively easy along with the efficiency that comes with this design.
@@MrEmrys24 On electric bicycles, according to a TH-camr who repairs them, hub motors burn up motor often while mid-drives he has never had to replace a motor. In the absence of gearing to climb a hill amps = torque and heat. With low rotational speeds cooling becomes a problem where a geared motor would be spinning faster with increased cooling, low amps, and better hill climbing capacity of the same motor output. The difference in costs are around $100 or 1/5th increase in cost vs the cheaper hub motor. This example is why engineers need to get into the mechanics bay as what seems ideal on paper is in reality detrimental to the end user increasing maintenance costs. Video titled, hub vs mid drive motor by JohnnyNerdOut
If it has powerful enough regenerative braking, it can replace the rear brakes entirely (they never have to work as hard as the fronts) and drive rear wheels of a front ICE engine FWD car, making it a hybrid. The unsprung mass won't have increased much if at all and vibrations etc. are less intense in the rear as its suspension usually travels more as it is more softly sprung/dampened compared to the front.
Practically, a one motor per wheel system that places the motors as central to each axle as possible and links to the wheel with just a relatively short driveshaft and CV joints provides all the handling and control benefits of in wheel motors with none of the drawbacks. The loss of some cargo space in between the axles is more than offset by the lack of unsprung weight, not worrying about every pothole or bump being the end of your motors, much better high speed capabilities (lack of unsprung weight), superior real world efficiency and motor lifespan by the use of simple but robust gearing, reduced moment of inertia, etc.
I like the idea of taking the electrical motors out of the wheels 👌 and having them protected by placing the motors central to each axle as possible that sounds brilliant.
Bingo. That’s what I thought, too. It also makes implementing a multi-speed transmission *much* easier, I.e. like the two speeds in a cordless drill, only one or two more gears.
obviously hub motors have disadvantages since 99.9% of EV's don't use them There is a number of EV's designed with 4 non hub motors and they are targeted at high end cars, 2000hp hypercars, 800+HP trucks but I think hub motors are interesting how much simplicity they bring. I'm also not sure hub motors are less efficient in real world, should be quite the opposite. gear reduction can reduce motor size but also add losses and complexity. it's hard to compare since there is only one EV using hub motors to my knowledge (aptera) and it's not even in production yet. plus it's not anywhere comparable to Cybertruck, rivian R1T, lotus evija, or rimac Nevera. but it's also the lightest, most efficient EV by a long shot. time will tell real world concerns about unsprung mass, handling, reliability or actual range. also Koenigsegg is using super compact and lightweight 445lb.ft 335hp 63lbs direct drive radial flux "quark" motors in the General, which could be the missing link between hub motors and traditional axial flux motors using gear reduction. hopefully with so many manufacturers heavily investing in electrification, we'll soon see a bunch of innovative solutions and not only attempts to clone Teslas. I don't know how far we could be of 4 hub or reduction gear motors EV without any form of friction braking. with super capacitors, plus very strong resistive heating capable of disipating Regen energy to a large thermal mass like battery or chassis in case of battery or capacitor failure, and very high peak power Regen available for a few seconds for emergency braking, we could have Regen powerful enough to lock the 4 wheels,and also able to apply much more efficient(with quicker feedback loop) ABS than electro pneumatic abs, while removing the weight, complexity and wear associated with rotors,pads, brake fluid pump, brake lines, abs,redundant brake by wire + hydraulic. FYI TC on the Tesla plaid is capable of accelerating quicker than it brakes thanks to advanced TC. Of course it sounds scary to drive a car downhill at highway speeds without mechanical brakes, but so did driving a car at 60mph less a century ago. middle ground solution could be to have undersized, lightweight mechanical brakes to use as parking brake and emergency brakes, that could be designed to have just enough thermal mass to withstand one emergency braking from top speed to a stop before needing a cool down. obviously main brakes failure would mean you could only drive in limp mode at lower speed to the next exit/service center or wait for a tow truck I'm also eager to see affordable EV's using 4 compact lightweight motors with the benefits for Regen, cabin/cargo size, torque vectoring, and different gearing/torque curves front/rear instead of always offering 2wd single motor in the cheaper trims (specially fwd)
Since I’ve been in Engineering and manufacturing most of my career, I can see the long term efficiency in this system. It will in time resolve those issues of exposure to road conditions.
But this will increase unsprung weight, which would make the ride harsher and the motors will experience vibrations and shocks directly. It also puts weight away from the centerline of the vehicle, which would be detrimental to handling. This sounds good on paper, but does not sound practical. Axle shafts are a small price to pay compared to the disadvantages of in-wheel motors, the shafts can even be made of carbon fiber to reduce the weight. And in-wheel motors are not required for torque vectoring.
I think maintaining the integrity of the air gap between the stator and rotor is a larger problem than unsprung weight. In order to protect the air gap seals must be used to protect from intrusion of dust and moisture. Another problem is loading on the wheel from load weight or shock can cause the air gap to deform, and even make contact. To resolve this a great deal of engineering is required in the wheel bearings. Trucks may be a good platform for hub motors since ride is less important than other vehicles, and torque is very important. The Elaphe hub motors weigh less than 75 pounds and produce up to 150 hp and 1,100 lb-ft of torque, so two motors on an axle wouldn’t weigh much more than than the solid axles used in conventional trucks.
my 2015 500e is a 2013 compliance car that has a single 111hp / 147.5ft.lb motor that weighs 62lbs and 9.6:1 gear reduction giving it 1416lb.ft at the wheel. not bad compared to state of the art hub motors. efficiency of the motor(s) is important but eventually miles/kWh probably depends more on the weight/aero drag/rolling drag than the motors. also chasing other inefficiencies as in the AC/heating/thermal management. I think lightweight/lower speed cars is a better march for hub motors. hub motors are heavily used in ebikes, except most of them need internal gear reduction to produce enough wheel torque, which makes them noisier and less reliable-especially with most common plastic planetary gear. non geared hub motors are mostly used with very small wheels like scooters/skateboards or vespa style mopeds/scooters with small 3-8kW hub motors on 12in or smaller wheels . heavy trucks seems more complicated. if you delete the solid axle and put just hub motors on tiny semi axles your also putting a lot of torsional torque on the wheel mount ? the solid axles also give rigidity for heavy loads
Hub motors are stupid as you are increasing the risk of damaging the electric motor. For the Tesla Model S & X is between $15K to $20K according to McNally Institute and & $5K to $7K on the Model 3 as stated by Elon Musk. One CV axle for a Model S is $250 according to forums. In the event worst case scenario of a road crater what would you rather replace? CV axle or the motor?
@@Cerberus984 you know some countries have decent pgood roads. the fact that they are probably not suitable to drive into a road crater doesn't mean they are stupid.
@@geemy9675 You didn't even answer would you rather risk $5K to $20K vs a $250 CV axle. Even if the addition of a differential and axles costed $5K it will be far more likely to last 300K when properly maintained. I owned a 2001 Honda Odyssey in which to save fuel when going below 50 and release the gas pedal would disengage the torque converter promptly dropping rpm from 2000 to 900 rpm being idle increasing the mpg by 1 or 2. Over the span of 150K miles we went through 3 transmissions with the 1st one covered under warranty, second one costing $4,500, and third one same amount. On an emissions or long term ownership aspect was the gain in mpg worth $9,000 in repairs? For context, it was exclusively maintained at the dealership. You don't need to convince me.. you need to convince the general population wary of new technology to them on a long term ownership aspect.
A softer tread, and thicker profile could provide better cushioning, and rides could be even more comfortable because the wheel has greater weight and thereby, more inertia. The other thing is carbon fibre wheels can save a bit of weight, and motors are getting lighter with the use of a carbon fibre sleeve, which improves performance as well.
If you're a city driver and a slow driver. Then this definitely the best convertion kit for any newbie. Intergrating complex differentials and transmission will end up eating your budget. This set if fine if you're just a city driver.
@@Alrukitaf nah, higher unsprung weight NEVER resulted in better ride. Softer tread and thicker profile can also be applied to non in-wheel vehicles, so there is no advantage for in-wheel on that scenario too. In-wheel motors will suffer more vibrations and shocks too since they are "unsprung". In-wheel motor is also more exposed to the elements and thus would require more waterproofing. Plus they move the weight of the motor away from the centerline of the vehicle, which is not good for handling. Axle shafts are a small price to pay for non in-wheel motors compared to the disadvantages of in-wheel motors, and carbon shafts are simpler to manufacture than carbon wheels. Most of what i said was also mentioned already in the vid. The concept sounds good on paper, but not in practice.
@@sepg5084 Yeah, you cannot overcome the huge downside of the unsprung weight. This is an ancient concept. COME ON PEOPLE! Its like your not even trying. Hub motors generally suck for cars. Go buy a lordstown motors truck and be the only loser that bought that stupid design.
In-wheel drive it's simply the most fantastic design model ever made , how handling become easy, and driving become steady!! I think it will drive all vehicles in the future, I dream to own one once day
As an auto mechanic who frequently sees vehicles being neglected, but still driven, the need for the power cables to be flexing constantly is of great concern. Given how much voltage these motors must require, the possibility of electrocution or fire from a well worn and poorly maintained vehicle could be quite high. As a possible measure I would look to brake hoses which do hold up quite well but replacing them to do cracking and leaking is a common job in this occupation. I was surprised at first to see manufactures not embracing the motor in wheel design but concluded they wanted to keep all the power cables stationary.
yes 4 in wheel motors could power an electric rock crawler with huge independent suspension travel and huge ground clearance with nothing in the way (diffs /axles) but not a Baja truck hitting bumps at high speed at low speeds unsprung mass is not really an issue
@@geemy9675 yes but the wheeltorque would be good to know. A big motor and a low gearing of a gearbox would maybe generate way more than 10k nm on the wheels. I wonder what a decent Elektric motor makes without transmission. Because the torque is maybe instant you may need a little less torque but I wonder what is possible. Late ev only a nm nearly normal engines and are multiplied by a low gearing.
As far as I know, Rivian developed and designed its on wheel motors to be sealed, so dust and moisture and the sort do not affect them, and the ball bearing are twice the size of a regular ball bearing giving much more resistance to damage due to vibration and road bumps. And so far, the few reviews of this truck, especially for the off-road use, shows the great versatility and power these on-wheel motors are capable of. But for some reason, maybe not having enough sound insulation iif any, the motors' noise can be heard in the cabin if you don't have a radio on. The Tesla roadster is not a Hybrid car, is a pure EV, and those electric motors were also sealed electric motors with extremely robust ball bearings and housing, so nothing about dust, humidity or damage produced due to road conditions apply.
Very interesting concept! If there are breakthroughs in motor designs to proof it from intrusion of outside particles/matters as well as the impacts from the road surface and with better batteries, this will become the future of all vehicles.
Thanks for all those info. A few years ago, I started to think about an EV concept. In my concept, I imagined a motor for each wheel, similar to the in-wheel motor. I'm glad to see that I wasn't that crazy. I see it as the future of mainstream EVs.
Motors in the wheels seem great, but what about all the dirt and water, plus snow? And how difficult are they to work on? Like anything someone has to use it to see how it works!
I am very impressed with the innovation that many people are incorporating into electric motors. I still don’t understand why an axial motor / stator hasn’t been incorporated into the design of these types of motors to continuously send charging capabilities while in motion and also incorporating regen. 4 years ago I sent a letter to ELON MUSK about this innovation and a basic rough draft sketch outlining and explaining the many benefits of this design I came up with over 6 years ago. Although I don’t have the digital technology to design and build and market I certainly always am excited and pleased to learn how many people are designing and building similar things.
Cost is the main problem. I've looked at axial flux motors and they are brilliant. Excellent torque to weight and compact as well. It's not surprising to me that they are being looked at for aircraft. Performance is more important than price in that market. For automotive? Maybe in Rolls Royce or Bentley Ev's!
All this technology is needed out of the wheel well protected, above but closely coupled on short drive achieving a closer and more straightforward power cable connection (motor) to batteries.
In-wheel motors give simplicity and more reliability (if one of the motors is damaged, one could continue driving at least till the garage, maybe at less speed). I guess that the most challenging are vibrations.
Reliability should be great on cars. We've been using electrical motors to move our railroad trains. Replacing a bad motor is quite simple, bring the engine in for repair, lift the engine to expose the motor and do a swap. We are really dealing with coils of wire and magnets. What could possibly go wrong?
I get it about the unsprung weight issue for in-wheel motors. I see some potential lines of tech development in this domain that will eventually improve operating cost… 1. Some form of in-wheel floating suspension for each motor that reduces mechanical stress. 2. Improved hermetically sealed motor containers to protect from dust, mud and pebble impact 3. Cost reduction from production at scale. I think ultimately the pluses (power, manageability, sensitivity) will outweigh the minuses for this tech.
Simply the best. There are real examples Lordstown motors. And the Hyundai SF concept ELEVATE (Tiger X1). The smartest, freedom of design (beauty) and the most important PRACTICALITY, capability (sports or off-road) stearing.
I like this technology, isn't it cheaper to replace or refurbish the independent motors (maybe like a yearly dealer maintenance) due to the many benefits that we get with them. Certainly sounds better than the alternative of having a heavier car, with added friction and added mechanical costs.
My opinion is ; the front wheel use indirect drive with benefits of disengagement for power efficiency and weight distribution better front heavier... The rear wheel uses onwheel direct motor for better traction and power distribution. This combination will improve handling and power consumption
Instead of placing the motors inside the rims we can bring the motors out of the rims and place ahead of the wheel braking and suspension system. So that the problems of vibrations and dirt may decrease. But this might lessen the cabin space and this is not a major problem because we experienced the internal combustion engines which occupy more space. If we place the motor in the rim a pothole may impact the motor as the weight of the car and the speed cause the motor to damage.
@@geemy9675 true like when small side collisions happens like when jumping the signal cause the wheel to damage. In this case it is very expensive to replace a damaged wheel(motor,braking system).
@@akhilnaidu6291 are you confusing wheel and tire? punctured tire is usually a 5 min fix. damage to the side walls means new tire,, not new wheel/brakes. light collisions are usually bumper to bumper with no wheel damage. t bone accidents at intersections with people not following traffic lights or stop signs can damage wheels/suspensions/brakes but then its usually quite expensive anyway. replacing one of 4 motors would certainly add to the cost. Although recent cars, especially EV are not really designed with low cost of repair in mind. look at tesla trying to press larger and larger parts at once and nearly new $50+k teslas being written off after crashes . Elon musk dream is to giga press the whole body of the car. people able to cut/weld/fix a car frame are going to make a lot of money if people are willing to drive repaired frames. Also, I think easy/cheap reparability is not easy to achieve with current safety standards (crumple zones). The choice that has been made decades ago is to let the car absorb more and more of the impacts to make the passengers safer. (understandably). the problem is that weight has also went to the roof at the same time meaning high speed crashes carry so much more energy Race cars with super stiff roll cages/ safety cell work very well for high speed crashes with driver having 5 points harnesses, helmets, neck brace, and cars driving alone(rallly) or at similar speed/direction (track). head to head collision or tbone crash with super stiff rollcages and people wearing only seatbelts would probably mean much worse damage to the passengers
@@geemy9675 I understood.well explained 👏. Though I don't know the technical terms more about motors and stuff iam just here to share my opinion that I have thought of. Anyway thank you for correcting me.
Great informative video. In a tandem wheel vehicle such a prime mover etc are in wheel motors still used? What is the voltage used? Thanks for your reply.
Biggest problem with In-Wheel motor is the torque limit. To be a meaninigful means of powertrain, each wheel needs to provide at least 100 HP, but this requires gear reduction. Gear reduction needs lubrication, just like your manual transmission gear. It can be done, but it just needs one of the startup EV company to brake the mold. True torque vectoring, Differential lock and stability control can be managed above and beyond what the current setup can provide.
Pogon sa motorima, direkno na osovini tocka je pravo prirodno i gotovo savrseno resenje u svakom pogledu, samo da se rese i kvalitetni akumulatori ili gorivne celije...!
geemy have you seen the Verge Motorcycles from Finland? The back wheel is a motor with a tyre on! The centre of the back wheel is a 10" hole with cooling groove around it. The swing is a double swing arm top & bottom attaches to the back wheel Stator. The early models did not need or have a back brake. The look awesome after 5 minutes when you've figured them out.
It is clear that In-Wheel Motor Technology is excellent. However, it is more important how durable it is. In addition, even if one or three of the four wheels fail, the car must be able to operate normally. I think German-made systems in Germany will be considered positive enough.
In wheel electric motors is a more than 120 years old technology: the first car made with this was the 1900 Lohner Porsche..."excellent" ? , i think not so: efficient yes (direct transmission) but the main problem is the weight from the unsprung mass who degrade road holding and suspension efficiency: Michelin did test this idea with lightened high speed mini motors + active suspension (Michelin active wheel from 2011)= did work good, but the cost was too heigh to make it in serial...Motor in wheel is today commonly use in heawy and slow machines, with electric or hydraulic motors...
Thank you for the video Are these in-wheel motors with control system commercially available? At what cost? I think the best use of in-wheel motors is to suplyment front wheel drive ICE cars. When added to rear wheels, it will provide instant torque to rear at take off, where the torque can transfer to the road better than in front. Then in freeway driving, let the ICE do the pulling to achieve freeway efficiency. As an ICE to Hybrid conversion project, it is far less intrusive to replace the drums with in-wheel motors than to replace the drive axle,. The challenge is how to integrate the control with the ICE engine management.
This would be a great option I wish to currently explore. When it comes to how to manage the IWM's that should be left to the customer and or have a separate computer that is programmable by the customer.
@@dpscloud3324 Could you do a video on exploring this option? It would be too difficult for hobbyist to integrate the IWM control with the ICE control. Thanks for your reply.
aptera makes an ultra efficient 3 wheel EV using elaphe in wheel motors. the car is supposed to start production in 2022 and elaphe sells different sizes of hub motors for micro EVs to trucks but they don't seem to supply motors to any production car
I think it is a good technology design, reducing the weight of the vehicle automatically improves the speed of the vehicle. One thing to take note in this world, is that everything has disadvantages but upon this flaws. There is more room for improvement, I think this is a big plus for the automotive industries.
In wheel motor is the future... already applied in many scooters. Is doesn't matter on longevity, but how cheap it can be produced and how easy to maintain and also repair.
Grappig! Maar willen we de natuur nat houden zonder commentaar van automobilisten dan moet de complete motor binnen het breedte oppervlak van de band gepositioneerd zijn. Daarnaast is een as meteen een versteviger van een frame. Voor de toekomst in robots en vormaanpasbare voertuigen is dit wel een mooie ontwikkeling.
I opine that the best compromise is to bolt one big or multiple smaller E.M. on a gearbox either front or reardrive. There wouldn't be inconveniences at any level and the space/weight gains would still be substantial.
How about to use sprung as some kind of suspension system inside the wheel itself to eliminate unsprung weight problem? May be some good engineering ideas will help with it
I saw in-wheel motor prototypes nearly 20 years ago at the Geneve fair trade. It was one of the Japanese car manufacturers. Not much changed since that time. It's good for low-speed drivetrains like forklifts or scooters. I have two e-bikes. One with a rear hub motor, another one with a central motor. It happened to me several times to punch the tire of the first one but never happened in the central motor one due to lower unsprung mass.
I have 2 ebikes, one hub drive and one mid position. The unsprung weight of the hub motor, heaver spokes and reinforced rim does not allow the wheel to track the ground nearly as well as the mid drive. The hub motor is in the front wheel where the gyroscopic effect is considerable. I have to run higher air pressure and a heavier duty tire to prevent pinch flats, all leading to poorer handling. I know its only a push bike but the law of physics must be very similar to both car and bike.
Great presentation about in-wheel motors. Unsprung weight is indeed the biggest draw back. However, with advanced motor weight reduction, suspension improvement, and battery capacity/weight technologies, the in-wheel motors appear to be the way of the future. Protection from the elements, proper temperature control, and overall durability are conerns as well, but the benefits remain compelling. Interesting stuff! Thanks. 🙂👍
Like with EV Batteries, wear and tear are common. Changing in-wheel hubs seems easier to me and probably a benefit. Every 5 years change of 2-4 in-wheel hubs seems reasonable. the fact that these hubs have upgrades over time get you a completely new (faster) feel of the car.
I have 2 ebikes, one hub drive and one mid position. The unsprung weight of the hub motor, heaver spokes and reinforced rim does not allow the wheel to track the ground nearly as well as the mid drive. The hub motor is in the front wheel where the gyroscopic effect is considerable. I have to run higher air pressure and a heavier duty tire to prevent pinch flats, all leading to poorer handling. I know its only a push bike but the law of physics must be very similar to both car and bike.
I've often thought about using inwheel motors in the rear wheels of my Dodge Caliber which is a front wheel drive. I've baulked at that because of the dust and water issues. I've also been unable to find information on the battery size and motors specifications.
The concept and logic is very good. However real world conditions suggest the motors should me mounted inward. So much is gained with the e platform till one should not feel restricted buy inbound motors where they would have more protection. Exciting days are ahead and I can’t wait to buy one.
I think in wheel motors are the way to go. I thought of this in the 80's where each wheel had its own motor. I was thinking of mechanical brakes for emergency backup. most of the braking can be done through the electric motors also re charging the batteries while breaking. The computers can Controle the motor speed to steer the vehicle eliminating steering linkage. Braking also computer controlled. Naturally heating and air conditioning is all electrical.
Did you even watch the vid? The vid basically explains that there are more cons than pros when it comes to in wheel motors, and thus it is not the "way to go". The vibrations and shocks that the motor will suffer, the weatherproofing required because the motors are sitting inside the wheel instead of being protected by fender wells, the unsprung weight, the packaging challenges, lack of options for additional gear ratios, etc. are the inherent disadvantages of this approach that traditional electric motor mounting does not have to deal with. The concept sounds good on paper, but falls flat on the real world. Current electric cars already do regenerative braking and torque vectoring, no need to go in-wheel for that.
@@sepg5084 You will never build a prefect machine. You always have to give up something to get something. What ever you do either you create drag or you eliminate drag. The electric motors can be mounted inboard and liquid cooled or oil cooled. Heat and dirt are the enemies of anything electrical. You use gearing on electrical motor drive you gain power and loose efficiency to drag. One system won't work for all EV's. They'll have to be purpose built. They will also evolve like the internal combustion vehicles did.
If the brakes are incorporated into the motors(which are sealed against the ingress of dirt, dust & water etc. Where does the brake dust go? If all 4 wheels are driven by individual motors, could you not reverse current brake them?
Rivian has motors on each wheel, right? It will be interesting to see how well they hold up. I don’t think any other ev manufacturer are going this route. I’m sure they’ll learn a lot and will be able to make improvements.
The trick is to have a very light, torky, powerful electric motor if it is going to be in the wheel area. The lightness reduces the problems with the weight of the wheel reducing the responsiveness of the suspension. Since the wheel needs to go up and down with the road surface and weight will resist this movement less weight will give a more responsive suspension. Like I have seen even the brakes move inboard to reduce weight on the outer suspension area. The negative being the loss of interior area of the vehicle.
In Australia we prefer hybrids over full electric due to range anxiety also we love our 4 wheel drives and to simplify a hybrid how about a standard front wheel drive with regen electric back wheels.
I believe the best way to ensure that this technology doesn't get passed by any longer is to continue with the add-on application like Orbis did with the type R Civic. I would purchase it and use it for the power adder alone and therefore bring the rest of the technology along for the ride.
Great idea!! I'd love to put it to use in a conversion one day...however, what about reverse gear since there is no tranny or gear box, does the driver flip a switch to reverse the direction of movement of the wheel motors to enable the car to go in reverse motion? If anyone can enlighten me please do...ty...Mike
I realize this is old but I’m doing research for a project. Can these in-wheel motors be setup to only be engaged as an emergency 4 wheel drive option for standard vehicles? In other words if I got stuck in mud or icy hill and need a boost in traction just to get out of the situation can this be configured to engage when I want it with a switch? Everything is out of control price wise this year. I’m waiting for production to return to normal. If they don’t I’ll avoid buying new. This vehicle is being used to haul a trailer with a subcompact tractor.
Wheeltorque would be interesting. With gearboxes this reaches often several thousand Newtonmeters in low gears on the wheel where the motor only make 200-300
Plus you can keep scaling it. In semi's you can go 6x6, even 8x8 potentially. That capability would be a godsend to any trucker going through the rockies / Canada / Alaska, same with all of northern EU.
In-wheel motor is all good running on city streets and interstates highways on a sunny and dry day but can it run on muddy water three feet high above the wheels like conventional 4-wheels do is a much concern over the disadvantage unsprung weight. Someone mentioned using grease but on this three feet high mud water? I don't think so not for an long term.
If it has powerful enough regenerative braking, 2 of them can replace the rear brakes entirely (they never have to work as hard as the fronts) and drive rear wheels of a front ICE engine FWD car, making it a hybrid. The unsprung mass won't have increased much if at all and vibrations etc. are less intense in the rear as its suspension usually travels more as it is more softly sprung/dampened compared to the front. So long as there is shaft continuity like with old drum brakes, there shouldn't be too much shock load or vibration transmitted to the stator or rotor housings & induction plates anyway.
Good presentation with pros and cons. Yes, certainly unsprung weight has some harmfull effect on suspension and steering. Rally drivers are unlikely to get excited. But with Rivian it seems to be working just fine. Surely few years of development of the In Wheel motors would reduce weight eventually. But, what about implementing in wheel motor, I mean something like Verge or so, in heavy traffic vehicles; let's say there is some 12 - 16 wheels total installed in a truck with big trailer? Think about 50 kW per each wheel = 600 - 800 hp total. It' doesn't matter much, if one motor occasionally fails. And then standardized, IW motors could be available for most of the common trucks. And think about slippery conditions; every single wheel would be pulling up the hill... One would think truckers would not want traditional drive back anymore!
Sound great if the design is durable. The reason not many ev co adopting this design due to massive direct stress to the motors. The current design is great because the suspension toke all the stress and cheaper to replace suspension components.
For in-wheel motor systems, for durability and ride comfort, high-frequency vibrations must be absorbed by the individual wheels themselves prior to conventional suspension. Perhaps the tire will change to another appearance.
I proposed in-wheel motor for military SUV-s in around 1996 already. One such advantage was no IR signature. But in-wheel propulsor can be other than electric too. The "unsprung mass" problem can be reduced by using flexing or even fluid mounting. Yes-it adds to complexity but what other innovation did not?
no the unsprung mass problem cannot be solved with flexing or sommeting but with minimising component weight and active suspension: Michelin did make such system called "Michelin Active Wheel", with mini high speed motors (with reductor)+ electric active suspension: did work very good, but the high cost from all this high technology components make it uncompatible with mass production= abandon
@@leneanderthalien If you read my comment you realise that I did not say "exclusively"! Yet- the "unsprung mass" shock alleviation has been done before the nineties. The g-suit and other applications did not have alternates like "mass reduction"-yet ingenious and simple physics were used. About "abandoning" new technologies - the Wankel motor /let alone similar engines from Russia/ was "abandoned" not from the stated technical causes (I had Wankel car)-but from auto industy pressure. It`s been well known.I could mention Mr.Tesla but I think you may be familiar with his work. What I descibed is "done deal". Ready made components for such solution have been in proven uses for decades in civilian and military vehicles. I just did re-thinking and re-combining those to another assemled forms for hub-driven wheels.
Glad you mentioned unsprung mass. I think there is a reason rivian uses internal motors. But maybe these in-wheel motors would be good for small industrial vehicles, like forklifts. AFAIK they already use "airless" tyres and crazy multidirectional roller wheels.
IMO as long as the vehicle runs at a relatively low speed at a track that won't cause excessive vibration in-wheel motor is the best design since the simplicity of it makes maintenance relatively easy along with the efficiency that comes with this design.
@@MrEmrys24 yes the real engineering challenge is making it work on an EV that will drive highway speed, hit potholes/bumps
@@MrEmrys24 On electric bicycles, according to a TH-camr who repairs them, hub motors burn up motor often while mid-drives he has never had to replace a motor. In the absence of gearing to climb a hill amps = torque and heat. With low rotational speeds cooling becomes a problem where a geared motor would be spinning faster with increased cooling, low amps, and better hill climbing capacity of the same motor output. The difference in costs are around $100 or 1/5th increase in cost vs the cheaper hub motor. This example is why engineers need to get into the mechanics bay as what seems ideal on paper is in reality detrimental to the end user increasing maintenance costs.
Video titled, hub vs mid drive motor by JohnnyNerdOut
@@Cerberus984 makes sense.... thanks for the info
If it has powerful enough regenerative braking, it can replace the rear brakes entirely (they never have to work as hard as the fronts) and drive rear wheels of a front ICE engine FWD car, making it a hybrid. The unsprung mass won't have increased much if at all and vibrations etc. are less intense in the rear as its suspension usually travels more as it is more softly sprung/dampened compared to the front.
Practically, a one motor per wheel system that places the motors as central to each axle as possible and links to the wheel with just a relatively short driveshaft and CV joints provides all the handling and control benefits of in wheel motors with none of the drawbacks. The loss of some cargo space in between the axles is more than offset by the lack of unsprung weight, not worrying about every pothole or bump being the end of your motors, much better high speed capabilities (lack of unsprung weight), superior real world efficiency and motor lifespan by the use of simple but robust gearing, reduced moment of inertia, etc.
Good Point
I like the idea of taking the electrical motors out of the wheels 👌 and having them protected by placing the motors central to each axle as possible that sounds brilliant.
1-29-2022
Bingo. That’s what I thought, too.
It also makes implementing a multi-speed transmission *much* easier, I.e. like the two speeds in a cordless drill, only one or two more gears.
obviously hub motors have disadvantages since 99.9% of EV's don't use them
There is a number of EV's designed with 4 non hub motors and they are targeted at high end cars, 2000hp hypercars, 800+HP trucks but I think hub motors are interesting how much simplicity they bring.
I'm also not sure hub motors are less efficient in real world, should be quite the opposite. gear reduction can reduce motor size but also add losses and complexity. it's hard to compare since there is only one EV using hub motors to my knowledge (aptera) and it's not even in production yet. plus it's not anywhere comparable to Cybertruck, rivian R1T, lotus evija, or rimac Nevera. but it's also the lightest, most efficient EV by a long shot. time will tell real world concerns about unsprung mass, handling, reliability or actual range.
also Koenigsegg is using super compact and lightweight 445lb.ft 335hp 63lbs direct drive radial flux "quark" motors in the General, which could be the missing link between hub motors and traditional axial flux motors using gear reduction. hopefully with so many manufacturers heavily investing in electrification, we'll soon see a bunch of innovative solutions and not only attempts to clone Teslas.
I don't know how far we could be of 4 hub or reduction gear motors EV without any form of friction braking. with super capacitors, plus very strong resistive heating capable of disipating Regen energy to a large thermal mass like battery or chassis in case of battery or capacitor failure, and very high peak power Regen available for a few seconds for emergency braking, we could have Regen powerful enough to lock the 4 wheels,and also able to apply much more efficient(with quicker feedback loop) ABS than electro pneumatic abs, while removing the weight, complexity and wear associated with rotors,pads, brake fluid pump, brake lines, abs,redundant brake by wire + hydraulic. FYI TC on the Tesla plaid is capable of accelerating quicker than it brakes thanks to advanced TC. Of course it sounds scary to drive a car downhill at highway speeds without mechanical brakes, but so did driving a car at 60mph less a century ago.
middle ground solution could be to have undersized, lightweight mechanical brakes to use as parking brake and emergency brakes, that could be designed to have just enough thermal mass to withstand one emergency braking from top speed to a stop before needing a cool down. obviously main brakes failure would mean you could only drive in limp mode at lower speed to the next exit/service center or wait for a tow truck
I'm also eager to see affordable EV's using 4 compact lightweight motors with the benefits for Regen, cabin/cargo size, torque vectoring, and different gearing/torque curves front/rear instead of always offering 2wd single motor in the cheaper trims (specially fwd)
Since I’ve been in Engineering and manufacturing most of my career, I can see the long term efficiency in this system. It will in time resolve those issues of exposure to road conditions.
But this will increase unsprung weight, which would make the ride harsher and the motors will experience vibrations and shocks directly. It also puts weight away from the centerline of the vehicle, which would be detrimental to handling.
This sounds good on paper, but does not sound practical. Axle shafts are a small price to pay compared to the disadvantages of in-wheel motors, the shafts can even be made of carbon fiber to reduce the weight. And in-wheel motors are not required for torque vectoring.
Hi! I am doing a project on this and I was wondering what safety concerns are brought on by placing the motors in the wheels?
I think maintaining the integrity of the air gap between the stator and rotor is a larger problem than unsprung weight. In order to protect the air gap seals must be used to protect from intrusion of dust and moisture. Another problem is loading on the wheel from load weight or shock can cause the air gap to deform, and even make contact. To resolve this a great deal of engineering is required in the wheel bearings. Trucks may be a good platform for hub motors since ride is less important than other vehicles, and torque is very important. The Elaphe hub motors weigh less than 75 pounds and produce up to 150 hp and 1,100 lb-ft of torque, so two motors on an axle wouldn’t weigh much more than than the solid axles used in conventional trucks.
Dust and moisture can sealed by greased, we used it everyday in today car.
my 2015 500e is a 2013 compliance car that has a single 111hp / 147.5ft.lb motor that weighs 62lbs and 9.6:1 gear reduction giving it 1416lb.ft at the wheel. not bad compared to state of the art hub motors. efficiency of the motor(s) is important but eventually miles/kWh probably depends more on the weight/aero drag/rolling drag than the motors. also chasing other inefficiencies as in the AC/heating/thermal management.
I think lightweight/lower speed cars is a better march for hub motors. hub motors are heavily used in ebikes, except most of them need internal gear reduction to produce enough wheel torque, which makes them noisier and less reliable-especially with most common plastic planetary gear.
non geared hub motors are mostly used with very small wheels like scooters/skateboards or vespa style mopeds/scooters with small 3-8kW hub motors on 12in or smaller wheels .
heavy trucks seems more complicated. if you delete the solid axle and put just hub motors on tiny semi axles your also putting a lot of torsional torque on the wheel mount ? the solid axles also give rigidity for heavy loads
Hub motors are stupid as you are increasing the risk of damaging the electric motor. For the Tesla Model S & X is between $15K to $20K according to McNally Institute and & $5K to $7K on the Model 3 as stated by Elon Musk. One CV axle for a Model S is $250 according to forums. In the event worst case scenario of a road crater what would you rather replace? CV axle or the motor?
@@Cerberus984 you know some countries have decent pgood roads. the fact that they are probably not suitable to drive into a road crater doesn't mean they are stupid.
@@geemy9675 You didn't even answer would you rather risk $5K to $20K vs a $250 CV axle. Even if the addition of a differential and axles costed $5K it will be far more likely to last 300K when properly maintained.
I owned a 2001 Honda Odyssey in which to save fuel when going below 50 and release the gas pedal would disengage the torque converter promptly dropping rpm from 2000 to 900 rpm being idle increasing the mpg by 1 or 2. Over the span of 150K miles we went through 3 transmissions with the 1st one covered under warranty, second one costing $4,500, and third one same amount. On an emissions or long term ownership aspect was the gain in mpg worth $9,000 in repairs? For context, it was exclusively maintained at the dealership.
You don't need to convince me.. you need to convince the general population wary of new technology to them on a long term ownership aspect.
Perfect! All vehicles should be like this in the future.
Only one big disadvantage: unsprung weight. Other than that: awesome, even less parts. Maybe it will work well with high profile tyres.
A softer tread, and thicker profile could provide better cushioning, and rides could be even more comfortable because the wheel has greater weight and thereby, more inertia. The other thing is carbon fibre wheels can save a bit of weight, and motors are getting lighter with the use of a carbon fibre sleeve, which improves performance as well.
If you're a city driver and a slow driver.
Then this definitely the best convertion kit for any newbie.
Intergrating complex differentials and transmission will end up eating your budget.
This set if fine if you're just a city driver.
@@Alrukitaf nah, higher unsprung weight NEVER resulted in better ride. Softer tread and thicker profile can also be applied to non in-wheel vehicles, so there is no advantage for in-wheel on that scenario too.
In-wheel motors will suffer more vibrations and shocks too since they are "unsprung". In-wheel motor is also more exposed to the elements and thus would require more waterproofing. Plus they move the weight of the motor away from the centerline of the vehicle, which is not good for handling. Axle shafts are a small price to pay for non in-wheel motors compared to the disadvantages of in-wheel motors, and carbon shafts are simpler to manufacture than carbon wheels.
Most of what i said was also mentioned already in the vid. The concept sounds good on paper, but not in practice.
@@sepg5084 Yeah, you cannot overcome the huge downside of the unsprung weight. This is an ancient concept. COME ON PEOPLE! Its like your not even trying. Hub motors generally suck for cars. Go buy a lordstown motors truck and be the only loser that bought that stupid design.
SAAB seems to have dealt with the unsprung weight ratio pretty well >
th-cam.com/video/-1VAkXNTR1Y/w-d-xo.html
In-wheel drive it's simply the most fantastic design model ever made , how handling become easy, and driving become steady!!
I think it will drive all vehicles in the future, I dream to own one once day
As an auto mechanic who frequently sees vehicles being neglected, but still driven, the need for the power cables to be flexing constantly is of great concern. Given how much voltage these motors must require, the possibility of electrocution or fire from a well worn and poorly maintained vehicle could be quite high. As a possible measure I would look to brake hoses which do hold up quite well but replacing them to do cracking and leaking is a common job in this occupation. I was surprised at first to see manufactures not embracing the motor in wheel design but concluded they wanted to keep all the power cables stationary.
Maybe use wireless energy transfer? Microwave comes to mind, but perhaps there are other options.
Africa need those Moto !!
Thank you my friend. I love the idea. Surely they will come up with a solution for the miner problems. This is the way to go.
I think they could be a game changer in 4wd, since most of the times the CV axels are the limiting factor in wheel travel, in independent suspensions.
yes 4 in wheel motors could power an electric rock crawler with huge independent suspension travel and huge ground clearance with nothing in the way (diffs /axles) but not a Baja truck hitting bumps at high speed
at low speeds unsprung mass is not really an issue
Although sealing the internal motor winding now become a big challenge
@@geemy9675 yes but the wheeltorque would be good to know. A big motor and a low gearing of a gearbox would maybe generate way more than 10k nm on the wheels. I wonder what a decent Elektric motor makes without transmission.
Because the torque is maybe instant you may need a little less torque but I wonder what is possible.
Late ev only a nm nearly normal engines and are multiplied by a low gearing.
As far as I know, Rivian developed and designed its on wheel motors to be sealed, so dust and moisture and the sort do not affect them, and the ball bearing are twice the size of a regular ball bearing giving much more resistance to damage due to vibration and road bumps. And so far, the few reviews of this truck, especially for the off-road use, shows the great versatility and power these on-wheel motors are capable of. But for some reason, maybe not having enough sound insulation iif any, the motors' noise can be heard in the cabin if you don't have a radio on. The Tesla roadster is not a Hybrid car, is a pure EV, and those electric motors were also sealed electric motors with extremely robust ball bearings and housing, so nothing about dust, humidity or damage produced due to road conditions apply.
The rivian r1t actually has a regular AC motor, it does not have in-wheel motors
Wow this is such a great invention and technology which is making easier life for us day by day. Thanks for your video ️❤️
Our pleasure!
This is a good idea, the big problem is dirt. How do you keep these motors clean and working?
Very interesting concept! If there are breakthroughs in motor designs to proof it from intrusion of outside particles/matters as well as the impacts from the road surface and with better batteries, this will become the future of all vehicles.
it can't be future because it has lots of uncountable reliability issues.
Thanks for all those info. A few years ago, I started to think about an EV concept. In my concept, I imagined a motor for each wheel, similar to the in-wheel motor. I'm glad to see that I wasn't that crazy. I see it as the future of mainstream EVs.
There are already EVs out there with a motor for each wheel
You have made a comprehensive study on motor on wheel concept
Motors in the wheels seem great, but what about all the dirt and water, plus snow? And how difficult are they to work on? Like anything someone has to use it to see how it works!
If this is same as a hub motor used in electric two wheelers ???
Pretty much the same only more powerful
Excellent technology.
Thank you
good idea, it reduces mechanical losses in the differential and as long as the motor is induction to simplify the electronics
I am very impressed with the innovation that many people are incorporating into electric motors. I still don’t understand why an axial motor / stator hasn’t been incorporated into the design of these types of motors to continuously send charging capabilities while in motion and also incorporating regen. 4 years ago I sent a letter to ELON MUSK about this innovation and a basic rough draft sketch outlining and explaining the many benefits of this design I came up with over 6 years ago. Although I don’t have the digital technology to design and build and market I certainly always am excited and pleased to learn how many people are designing and building similar things.
Cost is the main problem. I've looked at axial flux motors and they are brilliant. Excellent torque to weight and compact as well. It's not surprising to me that they are being looked at for aircraft. Performance is more important than price in that market. For automotive? Maybe in Rolls Royce or Bentley Ev's!
Simplicity and more reliability this is main advantages ! I believe it is a future of most electric vehicles.
All this technology is needed out of the wheel well protected, above but closely coupled on short drive achieving a closer and more straightforward power cable connection (motor) to batteries.
In-wheel motors give simplicity and more reliability (if one of the motors is damaged, one could continue driving at least till the garage, maybe at less speed). I guess that the most challenging are vibrations.
Much heavier = bad range and efficiency
I found with my ebike fat tyres really helped
Also in those snowing states, city are dumping hundreds tons of salt every day.
Reliability should be great on cars. We've been using electrical motors to move our railroad trains. Replacing a bad motor is quite simple, bring the engine in for repair, lift the engine to expose the motor and do a swap. We are really dealing with coils of wire and magnets. What could possibly go wrong?
I get it about the unsprung weight issue for in-wheel motors. I see some potential lines of tech development in this domain that will eventually improve operating cost…
1. Some form of in-wheel floating suspension for each motor that reduces mechanical stress.
2. Improved hermetically sealed motor containers to protect from dust, mud and pebble impact
3. Cost reduction from production at scale.
I think ultimately the pluses (power, manageability, sensitivity) will outweigh the minuses for this tech.
nice idea. dont attach direc to wheel use chain to absorb vibtaration, like a free wheel bicyvle
The Concept of hub wheel Motors, are highly, Viable, with Little bit of Innovation, in gearing the wheels, it will become more Commercial for Utility.
Thanks for the informative video I vote for mid drive centre mounted motor at the differential.
Truly the future of EV’s!
Simply the best. There are real examples Lordstown motors. And the Hyundai SF concept ELEVATE (Tiger X1). The smartest, freedom of design (beauty) and the most important PRACTICALITY, capability (sports or off-road) stearing.
I like this technology, isn't it cheaper to replace or refurbish the independent motors (maybe like a yearly dealer maintenance) due to the many benefits that we get with them. Certainly sounds better than the alternative of having a heavier car, with added friction and added mechanical costs.
My opinion is ; the front wheel use indirect drive with benefits of disengagement for power efficiency and weight distribution better front heavier...
The rear wheel uses onwheel direct motor for better traction and power distribution. This combination will improve handling and power consumption
This is amazing!!
Engine +Clutch and gearbox drive shaft is best thing in a vehicle..
Yes
Instead of placing the motors inside the rims we can bring the motors out of the rims and place ahead of the wheel braking and suspension system. So that the problems of vibrations and dirt may decrease.
But this might lessen the cabin space and this is not a major problem because we experienced the internal combustion engines which occupy more space.
If we place the motor in the rim a pothole may impact the motor as the weight of the car and the speed cause the motor to damage.
I don't see why punctured tire would be an issue, but big pothole at speed/bent rim could be more catastrophic than on other cars
@@geemy9675 true like when small side collisions happens like when jumping the signal cause the wheel to damage. In this case it is very expensive to replace a damaged wheel(motor,braking system).
@@akhilnaidu6291 are you confusing wheel and tire? punctured tire is usually a 5 min fix. damage to the side walls means new tire,, not new wheel/brakes. light collisions are usually bumper to bumper with no wheel damage. t bone accidents at intersections with people not following traffic lights or stop signs can damage wheels/suspensions/brakes but then its usually quite expensive anyway. replacing one of 4 motors would certainly add to the cost. Although recent cars, especially EV are not really designed with low cost of repair in mind. look at tesla trying to press larger and larger parts at once and nearly new $50+k teslas being written off after crashes . Elon musk dream is to giga press the whole body of the car. people able to cut/weld/fix a car frame are going to make a lot of money if people are willing to drive repaired frames.
Also, I think easy/cheap reparability is not easy to achieve with current safety standards (crumple zones). The choice that has been made decades ago is to let the car absorb more and more of the impacts to make the passengers safer. (understandably). the problem is that weight has also went to the roof at the same time meaning high speed crashes carry so much more energy
Race cars with super stiff roll cages/ safety cell work very well for high speed crashes with driver having 5 points harnesses, helmets, neck brace, and cars driving alone(rallly) or at similar speed/direction (track).
head to head collision or tbone crash with super stiff rollcages and people wearing only seatbelts would probably mean much worse damage to the passengers
@@geemy9675 I understood.well explained 👏.
Though I don't know the technical terms more about motors and stuff iam just here to share my opinion that I have thought of.
Anyway thank you for correcting me.
Great work ❤❤❤
Great informative video. In a tandem wheel vehicle such a prime mover etc are in wheel motors still used? What is the voltage used? Thanks for your reply.
Biggest problem with In-Wheel motor is the torque limit. To be a meaninigful means of powertrain, each wheel needs to provide at least 100 HP, but this requires gear reduction.
Gear reduction needs lubrication, just like your manual transmission gear. It can be done, but it just needs one of the startup EV company to brake the mold.
True torque vectoring, Differential lock and stability control can be managed above and beyond what the current setup can provide.
Rear wheel, front wheel, and All-will drives.
Pogon sa motorima, direkno na osovini tocka je pravo prirodno i gotovo savrseno resenje u svakom pogledu, samo da se rese i kvalitetni akumulatori ili gorivne celije...!
GOOD EXPLANATION SIR THANK YOU
geemy have you seen the Verge Motorcycles from Finland? The back wheel is a motor with a tyre on! The centre of the back wheel is a 10" hole with cooling groove around it. The swing is a double swing arm top & bottom attaches to the back wheel Stator. The early models did not need or have a back brake. The look awesome after 5 minutes when you've figured them out.
Probably a great implementation on perfect roads (which make less than 10% of roads in the global market scale).
Aptera is currently using in wheel motors. And it’s classified as an auto cycle or motorcycle. Elaphe is the supplier of the motors.
It is clear that In-Wheel Motor Technology is excellent. However, it is more important how durable it is. In addition, even if one or three of the four wheels fail, the car must be able to operate normally. I think German-made systems in Germany will be considered positive enough.
In wheel electric motors is a more than 120 years old technology: the first car made with this was the 1900 Lohner Porsche..."excellent" ? , i think not so: efficient yes (direct transmission) but the main problem is the weight from the unsprung mass who degrade road holding and suspension efficiency: Michelin did test this idea with lightened high speed mini motors + active suspension (Michelin active wheel from 2011)= did work good, but the cost was too heigh to make it in serial...Motor in wheel is today commonly use in heawy and slow machines, with electric or hydraulic motors...
Brilliant video thank you
Thank you for the video Are these in-wheel motors with control system commercially available? At what cost? I think the best use of in-wheel motors is to suplyment front wheel drive ICE cars. When added to rear wheels, it will provide instant torque to rear at take off, where the torque can transfer to the road better than in front. Then in freeway driving, let the ICE do the pulling to achieve freeway efficiency. As an ICE to Hybrid conversion project, it is far less intrusive to replace the drums with in-wheel motors than to replace the drive axle,. The challenge is how to integrate the control with the ICE engine management.
This would be a great option I wish to currently explore.
When it comes to how to manage the IWM's that should be left to the customer and or have a separate computer that is programmable by the customer.
@@dpscloud3324 Could you do a video on exploring this option?
It would be too difficult for hobbyist to integrate the IWM control with the ICE control.
Thanks for your reply.
aptera makes an ultra efficient 3 wheel EV using elaphe in wheel motors. the car is supposed to start production in 2022 and elaphe sells different sizes of hub motors for micro EVs to trucks but they don't seem to supply motors to any production car
I think it is a good technology design, reducing the weight of the vehicle automatically improves the speed of the vehicle. One thing to take note in this world, is that everything has disadvantages but upon this flaws. There is more room for improvement, I think this is a big plus for the automotive industries.
Over 30 years ago, I predicted the wheel diving will be the ultimate e-drive train design.
In wheel motor is the future... already applied in many scooters.
Is doesn't matter on longevity, but how cheap it can be produced and how easy to maintain and also repair.
Grappig! Maar willen we de natuur nat houden zonder commentaar van automobilisten dan moet de complete motor binnen het breedte oppervlak van de band gepositioneerd zijn. Daarnaast is een as meteen een versteviger van een frame. Voor de toekomst in robots en vormaanpasbare voertuigen is dit wel een mooie ontwikkeling.
I opine that the best compromise is to bolt one big or multiple smaller E.M. on a gearbox either front or reardrive. There wouldn't be inconveniences at any level and the space/weight gains would still be substantial.
Nice video... By the way we can still use the spring suspension in how we mount the chasi
I LIKE THAT TECH.
How about to use sprung as some kind of suspension system inside the wheel itself to eliminate unsprung weight problem? May be some good engineering ideas will help with it
put this inwheel motor to rear wheel in FWD civi type R and combie as an AWD system would be frickin awesome!
Tried and tested true with Ebike hub motors. Now very smart for Emotorcycles, no chain,belt or drive shaft. Unsprung weight though,thats a challenge.
I saw in-wheel motor prototypes nearly 20 years ago at the Geneve fair trade. It was one of the Japanese car manufacturers. Not much changed since that time. It's good for low-speed drivetrains like forklifts or scooters. I have two e-bikes. One with a rear hub motor, another one with a central motor. It happened to me several times to punch the tire of the first one but never happened in the central motor one due to lower unsprung mass.
I have 2 ebikes, one hub drive and one mid position. The unsprung weight of the hub motor, heaver spokes and reinforced rim does not allow the wheel to track the ground nearly as well as the mid drive. The hub motor is in the front wheel where the gyroscopic effect is considerable. I have to run higher air pressure and a heavier duty tire to prevent pinch flats, all leading to poorer handling. I know its only a push bike but the law of physics must be very similar to both car and bike.
Amazing magic😊😊😊
More efficient, perfecting the technology of driving the wheels of electric machines
Great presentation about in-wheel motors. Unsprung weight is indeed the biggest draw back. However, with advanced motor weight reduction, suspension improvement, and battery capacity/weight technologies, the in-wheel motors appear to be the way of the future. Protection from the elements, proper temperature control, and overall durability are conerns as well, but the benefits remain compelling. Interesting stuff! Thanks.
🙂👍
Like with EV Batteries, wear and tear are common. Changing in-wheel hubs seems easier to me and probably a benefit. Every 5 years change of 2-4 in-wheel hubs seems reasonable. the fact that these hubs have upgrades over time get you a completely new (faster) feel of the car.
@@QUADBOYification that's stupid. Why would you need to "upgrade" an electric motor? It's not a stick of RAM.
I have 2 ebikes, one hub drive and one mid position. The unsprung weight of the hub motor, heaver spokes and reinforced rim does not allow the wheel to track the ground nearly as well as the mid drive. The hub motor is in the front wheel where the gyroscopic effect is considerable. I have to run higher air pressure and a heavier duty tire to prevent pinch flats, all leading to poorer handling. I know its only a push bike but the law of physics must be very similar to both car and bike.
Wonder full explanation thanks
Thanks for this ...
Information !......Goooood
Really good technalogyfor future..woow
I see someone finally catching up to the ebike hub motor.
모터 출력 몇키로야? 2키로 넘으면 좋을거 같은데 캔통신 되면 구매하고싶다
Will the vibrations of in wheel motor affect the motor in the long run?
I've often thought about using inwheel motors in the rear wheels of my Dodge Caliber which is a front wheel drive. I've baulked at that because of the dust and water issues. I've also been unable to find information on the battery size and motors specifications.
thats why i love hybrid phevs you can get best of both worlds
Nice video 👍
The concept and logic is very good. However real world conditions suggest the motors should me mounted inward. So much is gained with the e platform till one should not feel restricted buy inbound motors where they would have more protection. Exciting days are ahead and I can’t wait to buy one.
each has its own advantages.
I think in wheel motors are the way to go. I thought of this in the 80's where each wheel had its own motor. I was thinking of mechanical brakes for emergency backup. most of the braking can be done through the electric motors also re charging the batteries while breaking. The computers can Controle the motor speed to steer the vehicle eliminating steering linkage. Braking also computer controlled. Naturally heating and air conditioning is all electrical.
Did you even watch the vid? The vid basically explains that there are more cons than pros when it comes to in wheel motors, and thus it is not the "way to go".
The vibrations and shocks that the motor will suffer, the weatherproofing required because the motors are sitting inside the wheel instead of being protected by fender wells, the unsprung weight, the packaging challenges, lack of options for additional gear ratios, etc. are the inherent disadvantages of this approach that traditional electric motor mounting does not have to deal with.
The concept sounds good on paper, but falls flat on the real world. Current electric cars already do regenerative braking and torque vectoring, no need to go in-wheel for that.
@@sepg5084 You will never build a prefect machine. You always have to give up something to get something. What ever you do either you create drag or you eliminate drag. The electric motors can be mounted inboard and liquid cooled or oil cooled. Heat and dirt are the enemies of anything electrical. You use gearing on electrical motor drive you gain power and loose efficiency to drag.
One system won't work for all EV's. They'll have to be purpose built. They will also evolve like the internal combustion vehicles did.
If the brakes are incorporated into the motors(which are sealed against the ingress of dirt, dust & water etc. Where does the brake dust go? If all 4 wheels are driven by individual motors, could you not reverse current brake them?
Rivian has motors on each wheel, right? It will be interesting to see how well they hold up. I don’t think any other ev manufacturer are going this route. I’m sure they’ll learn a lot and will be able to make improvements.
For each wheel not in each wheel.
In-board quad system
The trick is to have a very light, torky, powerful electric motor if it is going to be in the wheel area. The lightness reduces the problems with the weight of the wheel reducing the responsiveness of the suspension. Since the wheel needs to go up and down with the road surface and weight will resist this movement less weight will give a more responsive suspension. Like I have seen even the brakes move inboard to reduce weight on the outer suspension area. The negative being the loss of interior area of the vehicle.
In Australia we prefer hybrids over full electric due to range anxiety also we love our 4 wheel drives and to simplify a hybrid how about a standard front wheel drive with regen electric back wheels.
I believe the best way to ensure that this technology doesn't get passed by any longer is to continue with the add-on application like Orbis did with the type R Civic.
I would purchase it and use it for the power adder alone and therefore bring the rest of the technology along for the ride.
Great idea!! I'd love to put it to use in a conversion one day...however, what about reverse gear since there is no tranny or gear box, does the driver flip a switch to reverse the direction of movement of the wheel motors to enable the car to go in reverse motion? If anyone can enlighten me please do...ty...Mike
Very good video
Good video, very interesting but I missed some explanations of the brake system? What brakes could be used for the IWM? Thank you, Sebastian
Done already by Japan....ELIICA..
with all those advantages of in wheel motor its such a marvelous technology and all in all i'd say i still cant afford that 😂😂
Yes, it will be good performance for us. It just needs to cover and also to stabilize the dynamic system of the motor 🏍
I realize this is old but I’m doing research for a project. Can these in-wheel motors be setup to only be engaged as an emergency 4 wheel drive option for standard vehicles? In other words if I got stuck in mud or icy hill and need a boost in traction just to get out of the situation can this be configured to engage when I want it with a switch?
Everything is out of control price wise this year. I’m waiting for production to return to normal. If they don’t I’ll avoid buying new. This vehicle is being used to haul a trailer with a subcompact tractor.
Wheeltorque would be interesting.
With gearboxes this reaches often several thousand Newtonmeters in low gears on the wheel where the motor only make 200-300
Plus you can keep scaling it. In semi's you can go 6x6, even 8x8 potentially.
That capability would be a godsend to any trucker going through the rockies / Canada / Alaska, same with all of northern EU.
In-wheel motor is all good running on city streets and interstates highways on a sunny and dry day but can it run on muddy water three feet high above the wheels like conventional 4-wheels do is a much concern over the disadvantage unsprung weight. Someone mentioned using grease but on this three feet high mud water? I don't think so not for an long term.
Nice vedio👍👍👍👍
I believe Ford after testing, figured out the motor wouldn’t last long enough with all the induced shaking, being inside the wheel, and gave up on it.
If it has powerful enough regenerative braking, 2 of them can replace the rear brakes entirely (they never have to work as hard as the fronts) and drive rear wheels of a front ICE engine FWD car, making it a hybrid. The unsprung mass won't have increased much if at all and vibrations etc. are less intense in the rear as its suspension usually travels more as it is more softly sprung/dampened compared to the front. So long as there is shaft continuity like with old drum brakes, there shouldn't be too much shock load or vibration transmitted to the stator or rotor housings & induction plates anyway.
Good presentation with pros and cons.
Yes, certainly unsprung weight has some harmfull effect on suspension and steering. Rally drivers are unlikely to get excited. But with Rivian it seems to be working just fine. Surely few years of development of the In Wheel motors would reduce weight eventually.
But, what about implementing in wheel motor, I mean something like Verge or so, in heavy traffic vehicles; let's say there is some 12 - 16 wheels total installed in a truck with big trailer?
Think about 50 kW per each wheel = 600 - 800 hp total. It' doesn't matter much, if one motor occasionally fails. And then standardized, IW motors could be available for most of the common trucks.
And think about slippery conditions; every single wheel would be pulling up the hill...
One would think truckers would not want traditional drive back anymore!
ultimately the future in drive systems
perfect
Very good $$$$$
Sound great if the design is durable. The reason not many ev co adopting this design due to massive direct stress to the motors. The current design is great because the suspension toke all the stress and cheaper to replace suspension components.
For in-wheel motor systems, for durability and ride comfort, high-frequency vibrations must be absorbed by the individual wheels themselves prior to conventional suspension.
Perhaps the tire will change to another appearance.
I proposed in-wheel motor for military SUV-s in around 1996 already. One such advantage was no IR signature. But in-wheel propulsor can be other than electric too. The "unsprung mass" problem can be reduced by using flexing or even fluid mounting. Yes-it adds to complexity but what other innovation did not?
no the unsprung mass problem cannot be solved with flexing or sommeting but with minimising component weight and active suspension: Michelin did make such system called "Michelin Active Wheel", with mini high speed motors (with reductor)+ electric active suspension: did work very good, but the high cost from all this high technology components make it uncompatible with mass production= abandon
@@leneanderthalien If you read my comment you realise that I did not say "exclusively"! Yet- the "unsprung mass" shock alleviation has been done before the nineties. The g-suit and other applications did not have alternates like "mass reduction"-yet ingenious and simple physics were used. About "abandoning" new technologies - the Wankel motor /let alone similar engines from Russia/ was "abandoned" not from the stated technical causes (I had Wankel car)-but from auto industy pressure. It`s been well known.I could mention Mr.Tesla but I think you may be familiar with his work. What I descibed is "done deal". Ready made components for such solution have been in proven uses for decades in civilian and military vehicles. I just did re-thinking and re-combining those to another assemled forms for hub-driven wheels.