That sweet middle ground when a game gets polished enough to be good, yet not labbed enough for people to figure out the most broken shit is the best part of a FG
@@granddprixx That's exactly what it feels like tho, it's the equivalent of a honeymoon, like you hear about people getting married and that marriage is amazing and whatever other shit they wanna say to hype up marriage, right after the marriage is the honeymoon, the bride and groom go somewhere to enjoy and celebrate their marriage, then not even 2 years later, they both resent each other and can't stand each other, which is when the honeymoon phase ends and divorce happens for a lot of people. Is it dumb that we take this word and use it for games? Sure, but come up with a better term for it then if you think so :)
@@misevibre Dota2 isn't patched often, yet it still thrives as an Esport, idk what you're on about. Same thing with CS2, CS has been the same game since probably as far as CS:S Like, how often are we talking here? Monthly updates like liveservice? Weekly updates? (I know that isn't done anywhere, it's hyperbole) And since when was update frequency relevant to Esports? Frequent updates are more for keeping people playing your game more than it is keeping the Esport alive.
It’s a nice theory but in practice, the game changed after season 2 because Geese, Akuma, and Kazumi were discovered over time to be op. It’s not like after season 3, they gave them these massive buffs. Players just figured out how cheap they are.
People forget that season 2 was far from perfect. Eventually its balance issues would have only gotten worse the longer people had with it. It was starting to get there when s3 happened.
@@Angel7black Season 3 is not relevant to the current conversation. How is saying season 2 wasn’t as good as people remembered have anything to do with season 3?
T8 probably would not of had so many patches had it had an arcade release. But it seems the changes they have made are to refine the new system where characters don't overtly dominate while also highlighting the core strengths of those characters.
It would've been cool if the live service aspect was towards continously improving the game such as but not limited to, adding new modes. Where's online team battle my guys?
Yeah, the game needs way more QOL updates then anything. Like even now, there is no Lobby Search function when looking through player lobbies and the other lobby filters don't do much. Like wtf? So the way to find lobbies is by browsing a giant ass lobby list and looking for specific identifiers like name or player. Which for some reason, loads all the lobbies into 1 list and doesn't even load all of them, so you gotta keep refreshing the lobby page to even find the lobby you are looking for. The work around is ppl going to the Tekken Lounge to add someone or by having the host add you via player id. This is the way for console, but if you play PC its a bit easier bc of Steam. Another big complaint I have about the lobby system is if your waiting for a match, joining the other lobby channels to play other matches is a cool addition that beats T7, but if you don't want to play in another channel, not being able to just chill in practice mode sucks. Like you have the wait room available when queuing in other game modes like Ranked/Player/Tekken Lounge setups, but why cant I play in practice while waiting for a match in the player lobbies? Bonus complaint: Lobby Host Transfer. You can't give or take at all. You have to manually leave the room (thank god it doesn't disband lobby anymore), but it only gives Host to the next player who's been in the lobby the longest. Not sure why this is the case. Overall Lobby is poorly designed atm.
I like the idea, hate how it's implemented. Forces you to not use certain moves in order to not engage heat when all you wanted to do was use the move because it has good frames or is a staple move. Heat should've just replaced the ki charge input entirely and that would be how you did your basic heat engager, or for it to be something you input buffer on certain moves to go into heat.
It’s always a tough call to make, there are times where you have to make immediate balance changes, but sometimes letting things grow and finding new strategies is exciting in themselves.
The bigger problem with fighting games using a live service model is the influence players have on the direction the game takes. People whine and cry online until the character they hate playing against the most gets nerfed to death long before they even try to seriously learn the matchup. And why would they? They know it'll change if they cry enough. Too much focus on analytics and statistics. Especially those BS fan made graphs.
Tell me you're an '09'er at best, without telling me you're an '09'er at best. Champion Edition nerfed Guile as a direct response to player feedback and arcade tests.
when is balance "good" enough? That's the tricky part. The latest patch of T8 worked well, every character is good, but as we see, there are still dominant chars(Feng/Drag/Jin/Viktor) in the game. Heck, in previous tekkens, they did not manage to achieve this and some chars are forever OP in their respective iterations. What is a good measure for that?
@@padzman91 Oh yeah if some characters are still OP or very bad then make adjustments. I just mean don't go changing characters for the sake of it being a live service game. There is so much other things they can add that don't require changing the characters.
I think if you only look at live service as constantly changing character tools then I think he'd have an argument, but live service is a lot more than character nerfs and buffs
@@ChromeMagnum what an odd take - SFII Turbo is utterly broken, and that's what they are arguing we need to go back to? We literally patched in SFII days, Champion was a patch and balance, hyper fighting was a patch and balance, Turbo was a patch and balance, turbo new challengers was a patch and balance..... There were even patches within those titles themselves. Really odd to hear Aris have this take. They've basically always been live service, just done through pony express instead of the internet.
Just look at Tekken 7, they added new move for no reason, they added the wall bounce for no reason. The only reason they did these things was too make the game "fresh", they literally changed how characters played, they made characters like feng really strong just so they can see him more online. I agree live service in fighting games doesn't work
I do think updating a game and fixing things that need fixing is important, but I definitely agree letting people cook is better than being reactionary. I'd be happy if patches only happened every half a year.
Do they change things for no reason or is there always something to change? You could argue the former but balance is never something that's actually complete. There's always something.
@@teero121 Ramlethal from guilty gear strive getting fucking cancellable rekkas for no dam reason even tho she was totted as a top 3 character at that time.
I think in S2 T7 they gave a few characters new string extensions that increased wall carry a tonne for them i.e. making them notably stronger, but they didn't really need it IMO. In S3 iirc they gave *everyone* new moves just for the sake of it and the results were characters like current Feng and Jin i.e. braindead beyond belief.
He's right, but what does it have to do with the question/T8? The changes so far have all been in response to things being overpowered, underpowered, or trying to give characters more distinct identity. Nothings been forced. He's talking about a hypothetical game
I mean under no circumstance can Evo Japan 2020 be repeated. It’s in Bandai’s best interest to make sure characters aren’t strong enough where you can see 6 of the same character in a top 8. However, i would like to see fighting games get to the point where they’ve balanced characters enough and there aren’t any need for constant patches
think about how the EU version of melee "patched" it but no one from NA could play it. In the modern age EU play on the old NA 1.00 version because it is the most exciting version of the game
I can't wait for season 2 where everyone gets a new move for no fucking reason further breaking characters that already have everything they need and more.
i just don’t like how fast it is sometimes with fighting games. feels like there’s barely anytime to explore before frame data and damages are changed. You learn something then next month it’s obsolete lol
While I definitely agree with what Aris is saying, I don't think the modern fighting game survives without being a live service game. If they relied purely on sales of the game, they'd all be dead. They need people to buy skins, and banners, and dlc characters and stages and shit. So this is probably what we're stuck with until someone figures out what Sakurai figured out forever ago...that you don't even need good online if your game has a ton of shit to do in it.
Unfortunately I think balance is impossible to completely nail down. The only thing you can hope for is that you leave a game in a "healthy" state. There's always gonna be a strongest character, but it's important that 1. that character doesn't completely shut the game off for the rest of the roster and 2. (more controversially) the top tier is tight and represents what people actually like about the game. I think everyone can kinda innately feel when characters are lame versus when they're sick. If there has to be imbalance, at least make the imbalance fun or cool. I guess people will always say "TOP TIER SLEEPING FACE" no matter what but geese is way cooler than kazumi.
I agree. The meta takes years to evolve. And players need time to get there. - That being said, maybe moves dont matter. The fgc will always find the top level way to play a game.
Fighting games has had this since the online model. In the case of Tekken 8, this is a brand new engine and everything was supposed built up compared to T7 that sat for awhile in the arcades before going to console.
Honestly by constantly patching away the meta, they're making the game more cheesy. Rather than studying for a long time and figuring out how to deal with the most abusive stuff, ppl jump on the unintended unbalanced stuff that was added in the latest patch. This leads to a constantly changing top tier meta. Change and rule changes is a bad thing in any competitive game. You should only do it if you really have to. This is also why I'm against DLC characters. Starcraft BW was abandoned a few years after release, but was more or less the nr 1 esport for a decade and it still have a vibrant community. Fighting games are much harder to balance though since there are so many matchups, but I think we have to learn to accept that all characters doesn't have to be equal. Look at the DLC era T7. The pros were jumping from one bandwagon to the next.
This is why Street Fighter 6 doing one large balance patch a year is such a breathe of fresh air and a good thing! Though it's a shame they are walking back on that and are now willing to do multiple balance patches a year again. Egh I don't like it!
One year in and people were desperate for the balance patch. Characters like dhalsim, Jaimie and zangief had to suffer without buffs they desperately needed while Luke and Ken got to run wild. Multiple balance changes aren't good but keeping the game as is for a whole year isnt it either. This isnt the 90s anymore. People are way better at optimizing than before. This isn't sf3 anymore with people still not using yuns sa3 a few years in.
@@505AGThis, anyone that liked a full year with no balance patch in SF6 either has no idea about the games actual balance or played a top tier. A month, 2 months in people already knew that top 3 were Ken, JP, Luke (in no particular order) a year in and they still were the top 3.
@@tanjitsingh5291 I admit I have a hard time quitting, doesn't change the fact the game is zero fun to me and I'm always losing my shit when playing. Ranked is a joke, everyone is fujin nowadays with spam. Who hits first has a HUGE winning advantage, defensive play is what I grew up with and got nerfed to the ground. Even watching tekken 8 is not fun. I remember watching Season 1 and 2 Tekken 7 when aris was shoutcasting and litteraly jumping up and down in my chair when something amazing happened. I never had that in T8. It's just not fun and that's why I'm done with it
@@trashgamerxd7612 Wow, what a coincidence it is that you have the exact same opinion as Aris. /s. Was it T7 that made it fun or was it Aris's commentary. There has been insane tournament runs already. If you were in Fujin in T7 then all the people you played with are Tekken King or higher in t8 so if you want to play them again get to that level. If you're a legacy player you might think Fujin matters and it separates the elite players from the non elite, but its not the case no more. If its fun keep playing if not stop. I hope you get the discipline and willpower to stop playing cause the Tekken community would be better if people who hate Tekken would just for the love of Christ STOP PLAYING.
@Avoiding The Puddle your point here seems valid, but it's based on a wrong assumtion. Live-service games are not supposed to change something just for sake of change. In LSG cause of change is one of the following: - new content - balance change to adapt to new content - balance change to deviersify gameplay ("break the meta"). The last one is what you're probably talking about, but it feels that way only in case of heavy flip of a balance. But clever gamedesigners usually just do some nerfs here and there or buffs of a weaker character/weapon/skill. And then they add new content (character, stage, mechanics) - and cycle continues. IMO, current problem with T8 is actually opposite - Bamco are so afraid to do changes now that they allowed a meta to form. Instead of making small changes on a regualr basis to tweak the balance they do prepare "big" patches full of small changes that actually affect gamer overall quite little (like those Drag's sudo-nerfs). Problem with that approach actually comes from combination of modern internet and game popularity. Community is actively communicating, working as a unified mind, to find optimized strategies and techniques. That leads to a quick meta setup and dominance of a certain characters and playstyles in the game - and as a consequence, drop of popularity due to lack of novelty and dissapointment in changes (a.k.a. people are losing hope that game will actually get properly balanced at some point).
It's literally better to just settle into the meta because new tech and strategies can be made by the players overtime even with the same build the game for years. Just look at 3rd strike and super smash Bros melee. It's better for people to get better at the game than for the game to make things better for you or worse for you for no reason. Also Tekken 8 looks like shit
You don’t have change anything in a live service game every time even with fighting games regardless of what you’re saying you have to I’m pretty sure the point of a live service is get qol and problematic things in a game addressed sooner than a “year” down the line. There also doesn’t always have to be a major balance patch all the time or for a long ass time if the creators feels like the characters are in a good place. So yeah I completely disagree
I always appreciate my man Aris's takes, but not sure about this take. I think theres been enough evidence over the past decade to show that Fighting Games work "best" as a live service game. Anything deviating too much from that has more or less failed OR have left the devs with no reason to implement stuff like crossplay or pay for server costs on platforms for matchmaking, etc. Like it or not (and there are negatives associated with it), live service FGs are net positive.
This is bullshit though Aris, new versions of these games came out every single year before. It's functionally the same. They've never just left stone alone.The only difference is you they don't give you an option to play the older patches. But don't act like Street Fighter 3 wasn't a live service, it was. If it stayed at New Generation nobody would've played that shit, all anyone ever talks about is 3rd strike. People don't even act like Second Impact even exists. Shit has always been this way.
Probably the biggest difference in past vs current is that everyone gets to play the last patch together for free (aka no need to buy the new "edition") but you are locked out of new characters stages etc. until you pay up. In quick comparison though if we check how much more content each "edition" unlocked vs. current season pass style and for how much you got for your money the season passes don't really hold the water. SFIV had larger starting roster and each edition even on average had more stuff in them than any single season pass in later games. HOWEVER nowadays balance patches actually get shipped and they do so every so often and if I have to give SF6 something is that not a single match up feels super unfair like in the past games. Also in the past since "balance patches" essentially shipped with the new editions the games kinda matured along with them so that should explain why people don't even want to pretend second impact exists. This isn't the case everytime either because sometimes something "broken" gets shipped with the new edition which makes people drop it.
Not the point. The point is that once the game is in a good state you have the option to leave it in said state. But if it's a game as a live service, you don't. The best version of the game is only a window of time, rather than a permanent fixture we get to grind forever 3rd Strike. (Which is still being played at Co-op Cup to this day.)
it's not entirely bullshit when you consider old games usually had at least a year or two between revisions and sequels. Modern fighting games can get patched in a matter of days or weeks now. A big complaint Aris was harping on awhile back was that he was labbing dragunov and bamco released a patch with drag nerfs that broke all the combos he was labbing. This wouldn't have been as extreme with older games, even the arcade releases which actually did get frequent patches
ya man no patches like third strike where half the cast is unusable at a high level and 75% of top-level play is yun with genei jin or chunli. arnis missin with this one
Leaving a fighting game alone worked in the days before the internet when information was scarce and people barely figured out the meta. Now with the internet, people share info and figure out the meta within months of release. You need to shake things up after gameplay converges and becomes repetitive
S2 the game was a mess. Geese n Akuma were too OP. At the end of the games balance cycle the game got balanced in a good state where all characters were in a good position.
Be serious now no fighting game is perfect, they change all the time. They usually come out and are busted from the jump. Looking at how many times Street Fighter II kept re-releasing that was the precursor to live service games.
Tekken 7 was the greatest fighting game of all time, sure it had some balance issues and the graphics were old but as a gameplay as a whole we would never have it better. The new game mechanics r dumb and not for tekken style of gameplay, it favors noobs and casual player and those type of players would never stick to one game. Imagine if tekken 8 had no heat system bs and no chip dmg it would’ve been the greatest version of tekken 7 and absolutely made every hard core tekken fan happy.
T8 fans seething lmao. Purposely misunderstanding what Aris is saying and grasping at straws and using irrelevant examples to justify their time sunk in to this half-baked season. T7 season 1 >>> T8 season 1 💯
He's always been a "old man yelling at clouds" type, but it seems to be getting worse and all he does is complain. Like why even watch Tekken at this point?
@@killswitch6361 Because it'll always be funny seeing people take it too personal. I've even lost count of the times stoners cry tears to the air that "Aris complains too much". Lol
@@killswitch6361last night i watched Tekken 8 on the official channel. Arisu stories are fun but his tekken watch party is kinda bad rn. SF6 are great tho.
@@manuelpatino7863 I'm not taking anything personal I don't even play Tekken. He just seems to not have much fun during these streams so why stream it ya know?
Look Im not a downer like that just want a bigger gap. look at MGS to MGS2. RE3 to RE4. Tekken 3 to Tekken 4. Big jumps. Id say really SF6 was the last squeeze but capcom with the re engine tech can make a 3D SF with side steps and walls like Tekken. Even MK 1 keep the graphics but make it play like armageddon with some 3D elements. Take risks, make jumps. I dunno 😅
@@Mark_Awakened Hey fair enough man, I didn't mean to be an ass. In fact, I think I'd probably agree. I think overall heat feels like a half baked mechanic that could have made the game really fun. I think it's current implementation adds very little to the game. I think also some bigger risks with gameplay mechanics like not having every stage be a box or circle would be cool to 🤷♂️
@@ChristopherWaddelow yeah thats why I love the Dead or Alive maps you can knock people over benches and down flights of stairs. Or slip off a waterfall 🤣
When they nerfed Leroy and gave him ss 1+2 it was over..... He didnt need it, people just needed to learn how to play with him. Now a legacy skill like side step punishing is gone with ss 1+2. The old ss 1+2 would be chain punches, so i could get a 64 to 68 damage whiff punish in heat but now its only ss 1+2 from hermit. A nerf.!!. Just give the game so damn time.!!.
The ending lol
Bro be shooting everyone lmao
That sweet middle ground when a game gets polished enough to be good, yet not labbed enough for people to figure out the most broken shit is the best part of a FG
Which is why the honeymoon phase of fighting games are so great.
@@griff1286 honeymoon phase is the gayest way of describing experience with a new game
So basically....idiotic delusion? If people want this shit to be a real e-sport, it has to be patched often.
@@granddprixx That's exactly what it feels like tho, it's the equivalent of a honeymoon, like you hear about people getting married and that marriage is amazing and whatever other shit they wanna say to hype up marriage, right after the marriage is the honeymoon, the bride and groom go somewhere to enjoy and celebrate their marriage, then not even 2 years later, they both resent each other and can't stand each other, which is when the honeymoon phase ends and divorce happens for a lot of people.
Is it dumb that we take this word and use it for games? Sure, but come up with a better term for it then if you think so :)
@@misevibre Dota2 isn't patched often, yet it still thrives as an Esport, idk what you're on about. Same thing with CS2, CS has been the same game since probably as far as CS:S
Like, how often are we talking here? Monthly updates like liveservice? Weekly updates? (I know that isn't done anywhere, it's hyperbole)
And since when was update frequency relevant to Esports? Frequent updates are more for keeping people playing your game more than it is keeping the Esport alive.
Not watching this 2 hour essay amigo
It’s a nice theory but in practice, the game changed after season 2 because Geese, Akuma, and Kazumi were discovered over time to be op. It’s not like after season 3, they gave them these massive buffs. Players just figured out how cheap they are.
People forget that season 2 was far from perfect. Eventually its balance issues would have only gotten worse the longer people had with it. It was starting to get there when s3 happened.
@@505AGthe problems in season 3 were largely the actual problems of season 2 however the banana heath bar was inexcusable
So we’re just gonna forget how broken leroy and fahk were in season 3 huh? 6 leroys in evo japan
@@Angel7black Season 3 is not relevant to the current conversation. How is saying season 2 wasn’t as good as people remembered have anything to do with season 3?
Who cares just play the dame game or not. 😮
I miss my wife
I miss ur wife 2😢
She's doing just fine, here. Don't worry about her.
I miss my wife (Armor King)
hey alright
Someone else is satisfying her
After expressing his thoughts articulately, I died at "you're banned for talking too much" at the end.
hey alright
T8 probably would not of had so many patches had it had an arcade release. But it seems the changes they have made are to refine the new system where characters don't overtly dominate while also highlighting the core strengths of those characters.
The couple times a patch has broken something they've also fixed it pretty fast, like that one patch that made wall and floor breaks inconsistent
this guy sounds like a tekken fan
they should add backdash and sidestep to the game imo
@@PSYCOMMUnist they work better than tekken 7 actually so maybe you're the problem
would not *HAVE 😡
Aris few years ago: they should keep changing the game as much as possible
Aris now: they should stop changing the game
Classic.
It would've been cool if the live service aspect was towards continously improving the game such as but not limited to, adding new modes. Where's online team battle my guys?
Yeah, the game needs way more QOL updates then anything. Like even now, there is no Lobby Search function when looking through player lobbies and the other lobby filters don't do much. Like wtf? So the way to find lobbies is by browsing a giant ass lobby list and looking for specific identifiers like name or player. Which for some reason, loads all the lobbies into 1 list and doesn't even load all of them, so you gotta keep refreshing the lobby page to even find the lobby you are looking for. The work around is ppl going to the Tekken Lounge to add someone or by having the host add you via player id. This is the way for console, but if you play PC its a bit easier bc of Steam.
Another big complaint I have about the lobby system is if your waiting for a match, joining the other lobby channels to play other matches is a cool addition that beats T7, but if you don't want to play in another channel, not being able to just chill in practice mode sucks. Like you have the wait room available when queuing in other game modes like Ranked/Player/Tekken Lounge setups, but why cant I play in practice while waiting for a match in the player lobbies?
Bonus complaint: Lobby Host Transfer. You can't give or take at all. You have to manually leave the room (thank god it doesn't disband lobby anymore), but it only gives Host to the next player who's been in the lobby the longest. Not sure why this is the case. Overall Lobby is poorly designed atm.
@@gliath888hey alright
I can't STAND heat
then get outta the kitchen
I like the idea, hate how it's implemented. Forces you to not use certain moves in order to not engage heat when all you wanted to do was use the move because it has good frames or is a staple move.
Heat should've just replaced the ki charge input entirely and that would be how you did your basic heat engager, or for it to be something you input buffer on certain moves to go into heat.
rng mechanic
turn on the AC dillweed
Get your discount using H3ATWAV3
It’s always a tough call to make, there are times where you have to make immediate balance changes, but sometimes letting things grow and finding new strategies is exciting in themselves.
The bigger problem with fighting games using a live service model is the influence players have on the direction the game takes. People whine and cry online until the character they hate playing against the most gets nerfed to death long before they even try to seriously learn the matchup. And why would they? They know it'll change if they cry enough.
Too much focus on analytics and statistics. Especially those BS fan made graphs.
Tell me you're an '09'er at best, without telling me you're an '09'er at best.
Champion Edition nerfed Guile as a direct response to player feedback and arcade tests.
Agreed. Once the balance is good, keep it that way. Just add more modes and costumes
when is balance "good" enough? That's the tricky part. The latest patch of T8 worked well, every character is good, but as we see, there are still dominant chars(Feng/Drag/Jin/Viktor) in the game. Heck, in previous tekkens, they did not manage to achieve this and some chars are forever OP in their respective iterations.
What is a good measure for that?
@@padzman91 Oh yeah if some characters are still OP or very bad then make adjustments. I just mean don't go changing characters for the sake of it being a live service game. There is so much other things they can add that don't require changing the characters.
I think if you only look at live service as constantly changing character tools then I think he'd have an argument, but live service is a lot more than character nerfs and buffs
I think hes getting at changing characters at all is antithetical to the idea of a polished and well made fighting game
@@ChromeMagnum what an odd take - SFII Turbo is utterly broken, and that's what they are arguing we need to go back to?
We literally patched in SFII days, Champion was a patch and balance, hyper fighting was a patch and balance, Turbo was a patch and balance, turbo new challengers was a patch and balance.....
There were even patches within those titles themselves. Really odd to hear Aris have this take. They've basically always been live service, just done through pony express instead of the internet.
@@OberynTheRedViper live service =! balance patches
Just look at Tekken 7, they added new move for no reason, they added the wall bounce for no reason. The only reason they did these things was too make the game "fresh", they literally changed how characters played, they made characters like feng really strong just so they can see him more online. I agree live service in fighting games doesn't work
Gets such an eloquent answer and still gets banned at the end. Aris rules.
I do think updating a game and fixing things that need fixing is important, but I definitely agree letting people cook is better than being reactionary. I'd be happy if patches only happened every half a year.
Imagining a world where Street Fighter 3 got changes every month
I had the most fun watching Ttt 2, nothing beat that yet.
nobody asked
@@krzysiekstzaakowalczyk114 you should have
I asked.
@@krzysiekstzaakowalczyk114 and nobody cares about you get lost
anything is more fun than watching t8
Do they change things for no reason or is there always something to change? You could argue the former but balance is never something that's actually complete. There's always something.
@@teero121 Ramlethal from guilty gear strive getting fucking cancellable rekkas for no dam reason even tho she was totted as a top 3 character at that time.
@@Elizord Questionable but given that Devs never say exactly why they do shit you'll never know either or
With T7, they started to make changes to the game mechanics to give players a fresh experience e.g. addition of wall bounce
I think in S2 T7 they gave a few characters new string extensions that increased wall carry a tonne for them i.e. making them notably stronger, but they didn't really need it IMO. In S3 iirc they gave *everyone* new moves just for the sake of it and the results were characters like current Feng and Jin i.e. braindead beyond belief.
@@LegendaryPlank still to you that may seem pointless but you never know how the dev conceptualizes their balance patches
Live service in a fighting game could mean adding stages and costumes, but I don't know if that would be enough for a "live service".
He's right, but what does it have to do with the question/T8? The changes so far have all been in response to things being overpowered, underpowered, or trying to give characters more distinct identity. Nothings been forced. He's talking about a hypothetical game
hey amigo, whats new with Kazooya?
I wonder what need to be said in audio or text for the COD bots to appear HERE...
2024 fighting games atpCap
well, Virtua Fighter hasn't changed for over a decade. Let's see how Sega handles the rumoured reboot.
meanwhile yomi hustle has had like 50 total redesigns for wizard
Magic is cheating
@@Adderflail i'd argue that magic is the game's core mechanic so it's fair
I mean under no circumstance can Evo Japan 2020 be repeated. It’s in Bandai’s best interest to make sure characters aren’t strong enough where you can see 6 of the same character in a top 8. However, i would like to see fighting games get to the point where they’ve balanced characters enough and there aren’t any need for constant patches
think about how the EU version of melee "patched" it but no one from NA could play it. In the modern age EU play on the old NA 1.00 version because it is the most exciting version of the game
Same thing when Capcom dropped CVS2 EO. That version of the game removed roll cancelling and it got ignored completely by the competitive scene.
Funny how T8 was specifically made for the spectator eye and even spectators saying this shit looks like trash
Huh? Who?
@@ChristopherWaddelow stoner aris viewers always watch in company (the voices)
I can't wait for season 2 where everyone gets a new move for no fucking reason further breaking characters that already have everything they need and more.
i just don’t like how fast it is sometimes with fighting games. feels like there’s barely anytime to explore before frame data and damages are changed. You learn something then next month it’s obsolete lol
t7 was more fun to watch because the timer mattered. High intensity matches going to time was peak
Man still got shot 💀
Wasn't there an early DBFZ patch that didn't change every character?
Live service should not = changing things for no reason.
live service game doesn't work in any game at this point unless your name is path of exile or warframe
While I definitely agree with what Aris is saying, I don't think the modern fighting game survives without being a live service game. If they relied purely on sales of the game, they'd all be dead. They need people to buy skins, and banners, and dlc characters and stages and shit. So this is probably what we're stuck with until someone figures out what Sakurai figured out forever ago...that you don't even need good online if your game has a ton of shit to do in it.
Unfortunately I think balance is impossible to completely nail down. The only thing you can hope for is that you leave a game in a "healthy" state. There's always gonna be a strongest character, but it's important that 1. that character doesn't completely shut the game off for the rest of the roster and 2. (more controversially) the top tier is tight and represents what people actually like about the game. I think everyone can kinda innately feel when characters are lame versus when they're sick. If there has to be imbalance, at least make the imbalance fun or cool. I guess people will always say "TOP TIER SLEEPING FACE" no matter what but geese is way cooler than kazumi.
I agree. The meta takes years to evolve. And players need time to get there.
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That being said, maybe moves dont matter. The fgc will always find the top level way to play a game.
Fighting games has had this since the online model. In the case of Tekken 8, this is a brand new engine and everything was supposed built up compared to T7 that sat for awhile in the arcades before going to console.
Honestly by constantly patching away the meta, they're making the game more cheesy. Rather than studying for a long time and figuring out how to deal with the most abusive stuff, ppl jump on the unintended unbalanced stuff that was added in the latest patch. This leads to a constantly changing top tier meta. Change and rule changes is a bad thing in any competitive game. You should only do it if you really have to. This is also why I'm against DLC characters.
Starcraft BW was abandoned a few years after release, but was more or less the nr 1 esport for a decade and it still have a vibrant community. Fighting games are much harder to balance though since there are so many matchups, but I think we have to learn to accept that all characters doesn't have to be equal. Look at the DLC era T7. The pros were jumping from one bandwagon to the next.
Spittin facts
This is why Street Fighter 6 doing one large balance patch a year is such a breathe of fresh air and a good thing! Though it's a shame they are walking back on that and are now willing to do multiple balance patches a year again. Egh I don't like it!
One year in and people were desperate for the balance patch. Characters like dhalsim, Jaimie and zangief had to suffer without buffs they desperately needed while Luke and Ken got to run wild. Multiple balance changes aren't good but keeping the game as is for a whole year isnt it either. This isnt the 90s anymore. People are way better at optimizing than before. This isn't sf3 anymore with people still not using yuns sa3 a few years in.
@@505AGThis, anyone that liked a full year with no balance patch in SF6 either has no idea about the games actual balance or played a top tier. A month, 2 months in people already knew that top 3 were Ken, JP, Luke (in no particular order) a year in and they still were the top 3.
I'm so done with T8 man
See you next tourney amigo
only the people that can't stop playing say things like this. I'd bet money you'll still be playing it
I'll take "Bold Face Lies" for $2000.
@@tanjitsingh5291 I admit I have a hard time quitting, doesn't change the fact the game is zero fun to me and I'm always losing my shit when playing.
Ranked is a joke, everyone is fujin nowadays with spam.
Who hits first has a HUGE winning advantage, defensive play is what I grew up with and got nerfed to the ground.
Even watching tekken 8 is not fun.
I remember watching Season 1 and 2 Tekken 7 when aris was shoutcasting and litteraly jumping up and down in my chair when something amazing happened.
I never had that in T8. It's just not fun and that's why I'm done with it
@@trashgamerxd7612 Wow, what a coincidence it is that you have the exact same opinion as Aris. /s. Was it T7 that made it fun or was it Aris's commentary. There has been insane tournament runs already. If you were in Fujin in T7 then all the people you played with are Tekken King or higher in t8 so if you want to play them again get to that level. If you're a legacy player you might think Fujin matters and it separates the elite players from the non elite, but its not the case no more. If its fun keep playing if not stop. I hope you get the discipline and willpower to stop playing cause the Tekken community would be better if people who hate Tekken would just for the love of Christ STOP PLAYING.
The only patch this game needs is the one that adds Lucky Chloe
@Avoiding The Puddle your point here seems valid, but it's based on a wrong assumtion. Live-service games are not supposed to change something just for sake of change.
In LSG cause of change is one of the following:
- new content
- balance change to adapt to new content
- balance change to deviersify gameplay ("break the meta").
The last one is what you're probably talking about, but it feels that way only in case of heavy flip of a balance. But clever gamedesigners usually just do some nerfs here and there or buffs of a weaker character/weapon/skill.
And then they add new content (character, stage, mechanics) - and cycle continues.
IMO, current problem with T8 is actually opposite - Bamco are so afraid to do changes now that they allowed a meta to form. Instead of making small changes on a regualr basis to tweak the balance they do prepare "big" patches full of small changes that actually affect gamer overall quite little (like those Drag's sudo-nerfs).
Problem with that approach actually comes from combination of modern internet and game popularity. Community is actively communicating, working as a unified mind, to find optimized strategies and techniques. That leads to a quick meta setup and dominance of a certain characters and playstyles in the game - and as a consequence, drop of popularity due to lack of novelty and dissapointment in changes (a.k.a. people are losing hope that game will actually get properly balanced at some point).
He’s right season 2 of Tekken 7 was the best of Tekken 7
live service isn't good for any kind of game, they just force it on us and we either accept it or stop playing games
words of wisdom
It's literally better to just settle into the meta because new tech and strategies can be made by the players overtime even with the same build the game for years. Just look at 3rd strike and super smash Bros melee. It's better for people to get better at the game than for the game to make things better for you or worse for you for no reason. Also Tekken 8 looks like shit
You don’t have change anything in a live service game every time even with fighting games regardless of what you’re saying you have to I’m pretty sure the point of a live service is get qol and problematic things in a game addressed sooner than a “year” down the line. There also doesn’t always have to be a major balance patch all the time or for a long ass time if the creators feels like the characters are in a good place. So yeah I completely disagree
But they didn't change things for the sake of changing and they changed it for better so what are you even talking about.
i think aris has went from like 150iq to a solid 90 because of the 019ers in his chat in the last 10 years
I always appreciate my man Aris's takes, but not sure about this take. I think theres been enough evidence over the past decade to show that Fighting Games work "best" as a live service game. Anything deviating too much from that has more or less failed OR have left the devs with no reason to implement stuff like crossplay or pay for server costs on platforms for matchmaking, etc.
Like it or not (and there are negatives associated with it), live service FGs are net positive.
Best opinion
This is bullshit though Aris, new versions of these games came out every single year before. It's functionally the same. They've never just left stone alone.The only difference is you they don't give you an option to play the older patches. But don't act like Street Fighter 3 wasn't a live service, it was. If it stayed at New Generation nobody would've played that shit, all anyone ever talks about is 3rd strike. People don't even act like Second Impact even exists. Shit has always been this way.
Probably the biggest difference in past vs current is that everyone gets to play the last patch together for free (aka no need to buy the new "edition") but you are locked out of new characters stages etc. until you pay up. In quick comparison though if we check how much more content each "edition" unlocked vs. current season pass style and for how much you got for your money the season passes don't really hold the water. SFIV had larger starting roster and each edition even on average had more stuff in them than any single season pass in later games. HOWEVER nowadays balance patches actually get shipped and they do so every so often and if I have to give SF6 something is that not a single match up feels super unfair like in the past games.
Also in the past since "balance patches" essentially shipped with the new editions the games kinda matured along with them so that should explain why people don't even want to pretend second impact exists. This isn't the case everytime either because sometimes something "broken" gets shipped with the new edition which makes people drop it.
Not the point. The point is that once the game is in a good state you have the option to leave it in said state. But if it's a game as a live service, you don't. The best version of the game is only a window of time, rather than a permanent fixture we get to grind forever 3rd Strike. (Which is still being played at Co-op Cup to this day.)
it's not entirely bullshit when you consider old games usually had at least a year or two between revisions and sequels. Modern fighting games can get patched in a matter of days or weeks now. A big complaint Aris was harping on awhile back was that he was labbing dragunov and bamco released a patch with drag nerfs that broke all the combos he was labbing. This wouldn't have been as extreme with older games, even the arcade releases which actually did get frequent patches
ya man no patches like third strike where half the cast is unusable at a high level and 75% of top-level play is yun with genei jin or chunli. arnis missin with this one
ok and why does this not apply to other genres?
liked because correct
Leaving a fighting game alone worked in the days before the internet when information was scarce and people barely figured out the meta. Now with the internet, people share info and figure out the meta within months of release. You need to shake things up after gameplay converges and becomes repetitive
Was seeing this at a tavern yesterday and was not impressed, Flukistan 365/24
Soul Cal all the way
S2 the game was a mess. Geese n Akuma were too OP. At the end of the games balance cycle the game got balanced in a good state where all characters were in a good position.
Be serious now no fighting game is perfect, they change all the time. They usually come out and are busted from the jump. Looking at how many times Street Fighter II kept re-releasing that was the precursor to live service games.
hes right you know
Tekken 7 was the greatest fighting game of all time, sure it had some balance issues and the graphics were old but as a gameplay as a whole we would never have it better.
The new game mechanics r dumb and not for tekken style of gameplay, it favors noobs and casual player and those type of players would never stick to one game.
Imagine if tekken 8 had no heat system bs and no chip dmg it would’ve been the greatest version of tekken 7 and absolutely made every hard core tekken fan happy.
It was good to watch
@@josepartida1711 u mean T7 tournaments?
@@ICEMAN-Z8 yeah, it was at least more interesting than T8
@@josepartida1711 sure the hype was on another level
Aris is 100% correct
Someone got a grudge on you to upload this take lmao
T8 fans seething lmao. Purposely misunderstanding what Aris is saying and grasping at straws and using irrelevant examples to justify their time sunk in to this half-baked season. T7 season 1 >>> T8 season 1 💯
t7 peak right before aris stopped commentating or caring about the game. Evo 2019 real peak evo japan 2020 soft peak.
Can you talk about the downfall of mk 1
I was gonna say Aris is just old and barking at the moon again but he kinda cookin here
People complaining just to complain, like every other Tekken to ever e ist.
Live service vs. buying a new game for a patch. In theory a live service game can get patched to better so they can work as a live service.
Hey alright stoner, a few years ago you were talking about how the should "turn Tekken 7 balance upside down" every year because it was getting stale
lol how can you have an opinion about a game you dont play?
“I’m not an expert.”
Aris is literally one of the most qualified individuals to comment on this.
Wasn't season 2 the times JDCR and Saint would be top 1 and 2 in every tournament? I don't remember these days being fun.
arisu is too old
He's always been a "old man yelling at clouds" type, but it seems to be getting worse and all he does is complain. Like why even watch Tekken at this point?
@@killswitch6361because its funny to talk shit about tekken and its fans.
@@killswitch6361 Because it'll always be funny seeing people take it too personal. I've even lost count of the times stoners cry tears to the air that "Aris complains too much". Lol
@@killswitch6361last night i watched Tekken 8 on the official channel. Arisu stories are fun but his tekken watch party is kinda bad rn. SF6 are great tho.
@@manuelpatino7863 I'm not taking anything personal I don't even play Tekken. He just seems to not have much fun during these streams so why stream it ya know?
Tekken 8 is great under the new patch. Sucks they didn’t release that way
It's almost like that's exactly how balance patches work. They need data to find out what needs changes
Fighting games were some of the first "live service games". There are 7 versions of SF2 lol
This was just a safe Tekken 7.5
Safe? Did heat go over super well??? 😂
Thats the .5 part lol
Look Im not a downer like that just want a bigger gap. look at MGS to MGS2. RE3 to RE4. Tekken 3 to Tekken 4. Big jumps. Id say really SF6 was the last squeeze but capcom with the re engine tech can make a 3D SF with side steps and walls like Tekken. Even MK 1 keep the graphics but make it play like armageddon with some 3D elements. Take risks, make jumps. I dunno 😅
@@Mark_Awakened Hey fair enough man, I didn't mean to be an ass.
In fact, I think I'd probably agree. I think overall heat feels like a half baked mechanic that could have made the game really fun. I think it's current implementation adds very little to the game.
I think also some bigger risks with gameplay mechanics like not having every stage be a box or circle would be cool to 🤷♂️
@@ChristopherWaddelow yeah thats why I love the Dead or Alive maps you can knock people over benches and down flights of stairs. Or slip off a waterfall 🤣
When they nerfed Leroy and gave him ss 1+2 it was over.....
He didnt need it, people just needed to learn how to play with him.
Now a legacy skill like side step punishing is gone with ss 1+2. The old ss 1+2 would be chain punches, so i could get a 64 to 68 damage whiff punish in heat but now its only ss 1+2 from hermit.
A nerf.!!. Just give the game so damn time.!!.
Dr. Diddyrespect
tekken is free
Dead franchise
don't forget to @ him on twitch when you respond to this video amigos
This game fell off.
(Remember to buy the battlepass)
Anyway you’re banned for talking too much 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Fighting games LUL
I’m pissed how slow T8 is actually rolling out. I need Michelle or Julia asap . T7 is still godlike for having a finished roster and similar gameplay
Hey get banned 🤣
Says this while he has his shop advertised on the video always a clas act aris 😂😂😂
Tekken 8 has been sick since it released. It’s better off now after the most recent patch, but it’s always been great.
Since I can't comment in twitch chat I'll comment here 😅
Sup fellow Tekken fan 😉
FIRST
Aris
He talking mad nonsense 😂😂
Alright stoners, keep it down will ya.
I miss fighting games before they tried to be like MOBAS