You nailed it on the head. A lifetime (60+ years) of being dispensational, the quandries got to be too much. And missions is a major key to this. Oh, to just escape it all. Oh, to spend all my time trying to connect verses to the current news events. Nuts. We have work to do! Thanks.
As someone who is not (perhaps yet) postmil, I can honestly say that it doesn't ruffle my feathers at all. I agree with Doug that part of me wishes that it was true, I just can't reconcile it hermeneutically at the moment. And I am always cautious about embracing a theological position that I want to be true. I've seen too many people twist the Scriptures in their own minds so as to make uncomfortable truths (like hell, predestination, etc.) disappear. But I can guess that the reason that the postmil position may ruffle feathers is that, taken in the wrong light, may seem to the outsider to lack urgency. If you believe that we still have thousands of years to go, then the urgency of getting the Great Commission done seems lessened somehow. Knowing that it will all work out in the end seems to diminish the importance of reaching the lost TODAY. However, that is just a guess. Another possible guess as to why it rubs people the wrong way is that it is always uncomfortable when something that you have always believed to be true is challenged. Being raised Premil, Pretrib dispensational, I know it hit me hard when I first heard that view challenged. I haven't held that position for almost 30 years, but I still remember the punch in the gut feeling when I found out that the Bible doesn't teach that we were going to be beamed up before the really bad stuff happens. It was quite unnerving.
I think it's almost certainly the second half, in many cases. It's funny cuz regarding your first half, the postmillennialist makes the same argument. Why polish brass on a sinking ship?
I would overall agree. Though the urgency has nothing to do with it. Most people that are pre mill dispy are anything and everything BUT urgent about evangelism and living out their faith. They are more holy huddle. Not everyone, but most
Lately as I have been looking into getting more into evangelism and training myself up…the most effective evangelists (at least the ones I’ve run into) all seem to be postmill. The belief that their faithfulness will be used by the Spirit to bless Christs future church seems to them a good fuel. Verses I do know some very solid amill brothers but when they evangelize it’s almost more out of just bare obedience. Which isn’t a bad thing. Our obedience should t be based on positive results. Just read Isaiah 6. But I think if that’s all it is, it gets more irksome more quickly. Just some thoughts. I don’t know where I’m at on eschatology but am recognizing a need to figure it out fast in these turbulent times. God Bless!
@@TheDrummaBen Ironically, it was taking a very literal view of Revelation that led me to predicting that it would most likely happen decades, if not a century or two, in the future. The main influence in that was the 'islamic antichrist' theory that you may have heard of. Joel Richardson (not to be confused with Rosenberg) is as far as I can tell a genuine believer (there are many others in this space who are questionable) though he seems to be on the charismatic/continuationist end of things, but that does not in and of itself make him unsaved or immature. He's the guy to read on the subject. You can find his book in its entirety on Answering-Islam (not to be confused with Answering-Muslims (David Wood, good guy) or Answering-Christians (the muslim counterpoint to the latter), which is where I read it. He makes the argument elsewhere, not in the book itself, that when Daniel says "the PEOPLE of the prince to come destroy the Temple," that the majority of those who actually dismantled the Temple were Turks and they did so against their Roman leaders' orders. Argument being, the 7th kingdom is not a revived roman empire but a revived Islamic Empire, and that Babylon will LITERALLY be rebuilt (the kingdom of Babylon was ancient Iraq), and that therefore you would be expecting Iraq to become a global economic superpower. That would take time, and certainly we are not there yet, but it could happen within 80 years at any given point in time. Thus my reasoning was led to where I could mentally grasp HOW the future could be farther off. The trendy dispensational notion in the mid 1900s that babylon was the USA or the beast was the UN is an attempt to put a square peg in a round hole. Anyway, at this point in my life I have the opinion that anyone who is spiritually mature should be able to conceive how, within their own eschatological viewpoint, that Jesus could return tomorrow, or delay for thousands of years. If you CAN'T, something is broken in how you're understanding either the world or God's sovereign plan. Contra postmils idea that Christ will take dominion primarily THROUGH the actions of the Church, I see over and over again a theme of "I'll do it myself. I'm the only savior" whether in the flood, in the call of Abraham, in the Exodus, in the judges, in the anointing of David as king, in the angel of Death destroying Sennacherib's army, in Christ's own advent, etc etc. It simply makes TOO MUCH thematic sense for God to be the one to PERSONALLY and bodily defeat his enemies and take up residence to rule, in a literal 1000 year perfect government, to show a) this is how it's done and b) reveal his glory in election in the fact that even with utter perfection (but the presence of sin), people still rebelled against him, LEST we think we had done any of it (believing in him, winning the victory) ourselves. That is one of the stronger reasons why I'm a futurist rather than an idealist (I'll explain that below since it was a helpful video from R C Sproul that told me about it and I haven't seen the information easily accessible elsewhere). Views of the millennium: amillennial - there is no millennium, or the entire church age is the millennium (but the practical result is the same), and things will generally get worse until Christ returns and then we automatically enter the new heavens and new earth historic premil - there is no rapture, but the events of Revelation are seen as futurist, generally. 'dispensational' premil - the church and Israel are two groups (the heretical view is that there's two ways of salvation and two spiritual people of God. The Reformed view (John Macarthur for the best example) is that there's always been one way of salvation and one people of God, but ethnic israel is a distinct prophetic entity which will become the focus of God's redemptive plan again in the future. This view expects a rapture of the church, whereafter the final 7 years are equivalent to Daniel's final 'seven' and "The Time of Jacob's Trouble", hence a focus on God chastising but also rescuing his people: "in the end, all israel will be saved." The "pre" refers to the fact that Christ returns PRE the millennium and then the prophecies about the millennium are fulfilled in a literal rule of Christ, bodily, on earth before sin is finally destroyed. Postmillennial - there is no millennium or the entire church age is the millennium (practical result is the same), and so the 'post' refers to Christ returning AFTER the period of time to which the prophecies of the millennium apply. This is what motivates many postmils but not all to expect a 'golden age,' but all agree that 'things will in general get better' when looking at history from a big picture view. There are more Christians now than ever before, the blessings of civilization are greater than ever before and most were pioneered by Christians. Christians have made serious inroads against slavery and tyrannical government systems and the worst overreach of government excess in human history has seen most of us still able to move freely and buy what we need without interruption. Heck of an improvement over meeting in the woods in the dark to avoid getting dragged off to be executed. Views of the rapture within dispy premil: pretrib - the rapture is the kick-off for the tribulation post trib - Idk what motivates people to believe in this, but we fly up in the air and fly back down again right after, but go through the tribulation. Basically historic premil but an imo arbitrary rapture insertion also mid trib - noting the division of the tribulation into two parts, suggests that the rapture will take place at the 3.5 year mark pre wrath - without specifying the exact time, emphasizes that since the passages about the rapture imply that the Church is removed from earth to spare her from God's outpouring of wrath on the world, that this occurs before the wrath, specifically. "we are not appointed to wrath," and as Jesus writes to one of the churches, "I will keep you from the HOUR of wrath" not merely keep them safe from the wrath while still on earth at that time. Views on how Revelation is to be interpreted (which is connected with views of the millennium but can be mix-matched to some extent): futurist - the events have not happened yet and are mostly future idealist - the events are things which occur throughout the church age in different times and places historicist - the events refer to specific entities and times in history, but which occur progressively during the church age. This is the view that generates the idea that we are in the 'laodicean' era of the church, for example preterist - the events happened already (usually identified as leading up to 70 AD). FULL preterism is a heresy, stating that Jesus has already returned. False, as literally every Biblically Christian view above would understand that we are then physically able to see Jesus among us, and because we cannot, this cannot be true. Postmillennialism generally also takes a preterist view (but may also dabble in idealism), premil takes a futurist view (but can also take a historicist view of some elements), and amil is generally idealist or historicist but less likely than postmil to be preterist)
I am a proud 11th generation Mayflower descendant. My great plus grandfather was Stephen Hopkins and my great plus grandmother was Constance Fisher. He signed the Mayflower Compact.
Amen. Read some Rushdooney last year, shook me up. Realized, “we need land for our children, their children, and on!” We sold our home. Bought a farm 2,200 miles away. Yes. Postmillennialism forces us to view the world differently and act accordingly.
Do things like do not be anxious for anything, sell all that you have and follow Christ, don’t store up your treasures on earth, heaven and earth shall pass away, do they go out of view with postmillennialism?
@@JohnGodwin777 no they don't but, you view them differently. I would suggest Doug's book "ploductivity" it defines wealth and how it should be used by a Christian. Christians should view wealth as a tool to be used for the kingdom of God.
It's so sad to see so many premil Christians think that all we are to do is be doormats for Jesus. It is disgusting and selfish, in a way, to not think about leaving something good and solid for our children's children's children to inherit. The mentality that we will be beamed up and who cares what happens here on earth, is simply selfish and shameful. That's why I'm a postmil theonomist without blushing. I wish more feathers were ruffled in the Christian sphere. Islam and pagans have a better eschatology than most Christians, sadly. As wrong as their views are, they still have a worldview. Militant worldview to WIN. Premil view: we lose. We're here to lose. That's nonsense! Jesus came to conquer and He did and He will have dominion!
@@JohnGodwin777 Does it mean that non-postmil people have sold everything they own? I know a few hundred that haven't. So why would we blame postmils for not doing the same?
Every time I hear Doug talk about his changed views on hedges, I want to know what and how he was planting and how that changed. I have probably spent at least 25 hours thinking about Doug Wilson’s hedges. Lol
Well… obviously he planted more sturdy trunked hedges, ones that grow tall, but not too tall. Ones that grow healthy, and not too quickly, because he has the time to wait for them to come in well. And ones that when at their final height, would provide the perfect level of privacy, but also not completely cover the view. He definitely went with the ones that cost a little bit more, because he knew that he would be sharing them with all the coming generations. So penny pinching on it, was out of the question. He took the extra time and care to dig out all the holes properly, not cutting corners from gardening exhaustion. Took the time to properly check the drainage of each hole too, so if soil needed to be amended, you bet your butt he amended that soil too. And looking to the near future, he already acquired the proper pruning shears, because he knows that caring for the plants in the first few years, will determine it’s shape 50 years from now. He knows that what he does today and next year with that edge, will be seen by his great great grandkids, so there’s no cutting corners or slacking on this front. Or should I say… on this hedge. Bum bum buuummmm!!
I imagine because in the “pessimistic view” the hedge will get burned up in fire and not matter at all. In the “optimistic view” the hedge might be there for a while. Considering the two positions, I’ve definitely had the same thought that, if Postmil is true, there’s a whole different perspective we should have about the earth and it’s politics.
Pre-mil. Here, Can't agree hard enough with pastor Wilson. Jesus might come back tomorrow. Time might be short, and of the utmost importance. And the LORD might tarry another millenium or two. We have to make the most of the time we have AND plan for our children's children's children. Pre-mil's like myself have to stop building ramshackle churches that "only need to last ten or so years" until Christ's return. We have to stop ceding ground to the humanists in every area of culture, because "Crist might come back tomorrow." If he DOES return tomorrow, I'd rather be found building a cathedral that could last 1,000 years, than squatting in a hut I threw together "until this all blows over."
As someone who regularly goes out evangelizing weekly on the streets in the Twin Cities of MN, I can assure you that every one of our team of evangelists are taking serious the Great Commission, though not a single one of us is Postmil. That is a straw man argument to accuse "non-Postmil" folks of not taking seriously our command to reach the lost. Because we know hearts will only change by the Gospel...governments and laws have no power to make a man into a new creation. You could still have a theocracy and still have a moralistic society where people's hearts are left unchanged. The fact we know that Christ will come back soon and pour His wrath and destruction on the lost compels us to share the Gospel with as many as we can before it's too late. That may be next month, or in 1000 years. We do not have that information. But woe to any of us if we don't preach the Gospel!
Agreed! One thing that does bother me, is where are all these supposed people who have their feathers ruffled by post mill. It seems like a strange question to me. I know when first heard the position articulated I just immediately understood it to be wrong though it didn’t affect me much when concerning my emotional state; neither have I sensed from anyone else.
There is a temptation to have a "get people in the door" mentality. I'm not post mil, but it seems like it is geared more towards quality over quantity. We are in a spiritual war and getting converts without building them up to fight in the war is bad for them and the spreading of the faith. I'm not saying that's what you do, but it's a thing that does happen more often then anyone would like to think.
@@Zanroff That sort of thing seems to happen across the board. Once someone "prays the prayer" we give them a list of dos and don'ts. Tell them what to believe, and then call it a day. No real concern for discipleship nor praying for them to mature in Christ. ( I am speaking generically, clearly this doesn't embody every Western Church's actions )
You proved his point. It isn't true of everyone, but it is a general truth that your eschatology doesn't drive you to think beyond that. Praise God, you've reached souls, now how do you disciple them to live the rest of their lives in their communities?
Servus! Hello from a sister in Christ from Austria! Pastor Douglas Wilson please pray for Austria! Next month Austria is bringing out a C0vid V@ccine mandate for all above 18 years... thanks a lot for all the great sermons, blogs etc. God bless you, your family and Christ Church!
For real on ruffling feathers. I've had premill types call me all sorts of names - unrepentant, apostate, and other names which I can't recall but were sufficiently barbed. 😅 And I'm not some gadfly either! I don't say things meant to be provocative. If the topic comes up and someone asks for my thoughts, I'll explain calmly that I take the postmillenial view. But not even this meek approach can avoid the wild-eyed stares and accusations. My own Grandmother once said she prays for the safety of my soul because of my postmill beliefs. The whole thing is just so outlandish. 😂
I became post mill over a year ago... but was careful who I discussed with about it. Unfortunately, a 2 months ago, a few dispensational people got upset about it and forced my husband to resign from his position as an associate pastor of 16 years. I didn't think it would ruffled feathers that much. This stance has completely uprooted our family and has labeled me a heretic. But I stand firm that our Lord is reigning in heaven and earth now... not in a future 1000 years.
@@MarcusOfLycia their statement of faith never states anything about a premil return. It states, "We believe in the return of Jesus Christ" Our beliefs haven't changed about that.
One more comment! I get the sentiment, but I gently disagree with this: "Most evangelicals live like they won't have great-grandchildren." I see most pre-mill evangelicans as living in a state of cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, they want to be pre-mill and constantly live on-edge waiting for the Beast and the rapture and the next Christian holocaust, etc, and to that end they don't want to put in the hard work on building Christian society in the ways that Doug mentioned, like pulling their kids from school. But on the other hand, try suggesting that if time is short then they should abandon their largely pointless day jobs in favour of full time ministry - street preaching, if nothing else - and to spend all their money, yank their 401k and other investments, sell their home, their car, etc, all so they can pour their resources into preaching to the world in advance of the soon-arriving end times... and they will definitely ignore you. 😅 So they want to be able to act like the end is nigh in all the ways that are convenient to them, and they want to act like the end is NOT nigh in the other ways that are convenient to them. Either way - they want, more than anything else, what is CONVENIENT lol. This includes living a life of full-on spiritual cognitive dissonance.
You’re right. I don’t know if or when there’s going to be a rapture but I fully believe that Christ will be returning (well) within my lifetime. I think a lot of Christians in the US waste huge amounts of money, live far too comfortably and put away for retirement like the Lord didn’t say don’t be anxious for anything. If the Lord leads me I’m ready to liquidate my retirement. I’m trying to find ways to trim my budget so I can send more funds to foreign missionaries. On that note, anyone reading this can at least setup Amazon smile and have a portion of your purchases go to whatever charity you choose. Mine is setup for HeartCry Missions. I wish I could street preach, I have a phobia and don’t know if I’m qualified but I really want to witness to more people. Since I got saved last year that’s all I really want to do is see people saved. Regardless of when he’s coming, the workers are few and time is running out for someone you know.
Copying my comment from above because I think it's relevant to your comment, too This isn't a great argument, though, since the charge has been levied against calvinism that it leads to apathy. It certainly does not -- among MATURE believers. It is certainly true that less mature individuals who are exposed to these teachings don't incorporate them well, and thus produce such an impression on others. While there may be a tendency to escapism in pretribulational premil, the flip side is that postmil may be influenced by a wishful-thinking tendency to optimism. Both are two ways that people with cognitive dissonance can deal with fear of the future. It will get bad, but you get to escape the worst of it (premil) or It won't get bad, don't worry (postmil). Choosing between the two shouldn't be done on the basis of whether we doubt our personal cynicism or optimism. :)
No matter what, you oughta act like we have to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth. I’m certainly not post-mil but we oughta have that same fire for revival.
"Hardcore" Lutheran here; I'm an amillenialist, but I agree the gospel calls us to live differently, regardless of a- or post- millenialism. We believe in living differently because we are (all Christians, that is) set apart by God. We Lutherans believe in missions. My wife and I homeschooled our kids because we questioned the state government. We approach the culture differently because of the call of the gospel. As an amillenialist, I don't even like the term, because I'm not sure why pre- or post-millenialism is even a thing given living lives worthy of the gospel is what drives us.
I, perhaps wrongly, understand that a lot of Lutherans are strongly opposed to the postmill position. Is that true, and if so, why do you think that is?
@@NnannaO I can't speak to the opinion of all Lutherans, but I know we teach and confess amillenialism. Post Millenialism seems to go against 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Beyond that, it seems unnecessary.
I'm taking a modern philosophy class and something I realized was that the post modern Era is a pessimistic Era and that tends to inform or eschatology.
That sounds a little naive, and I'm not disrespecting you. I suppose you could elaborate that by saying that postmodernism is a denial of absolutes, which leads inherently to a sort of nihilism. This kind of "nothing really matters" attitude COULD influence a person's attitude toward whether or not there's a point in working toward improving the future, and therefore whether or not they prefer to think that they'll get to escape earthly responsibilities soon, versus have to stick around and create a thousand year legacy. However, apathy or nihilism is not at the root of premil, and those who keep to it are likely to be persuaded by the sheer specificity of futurist-worded prophecies that don't seem to be adequately addressed by postmil allegorizations. I think if anyone is attracted to premil for immature reasons, that's likely to be due to cynicism and a desire to avoid suffering, not primarily an attitude toward reality itself, that nothing matters. The idea that what is spiritual is more important than what is material is not from existential nihilism but comes from metaphysical dualism and has been with Christians from the very beginning. The Gnostic heresy came out of the negative view of the material world, and this is more apt to be the subtle influence on those who are pessimistic about working with what you've got to create something long term.
@Caleb P it seems to me that the post modern ideology that permeates our culture creates a negative culture that is Hopeless at its core. When nothing is absolute and you are tossed to and fro then everything becomes pessimistic because you have no grasp on the future. The Church is influenced by this and leads them to an escapist mentality that is informed by an everything is getting worse eschatology. This has the result of the church not acting as joyful soilders on a mission. Instead the church is not doing anything and waiting on Jesus to fix it all even though we are not to bury our talents.
Bingo. The spirit of the age changes from the renaissance/enlightenment modernist optimism that man will create utopia through reason and science which was shattered after the word wars. Premil dispensationalism caught on in the post war years when the postmodern existential dread gripped the world. The majority of evangelicals bought into the world's futile thinking and retreated into two kingdom pietism and doomsday eschatology abdicating the battlefield when the standing order was ". . .make disciples of all nations, . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. . . " No use polishing brass on a sinking ship when Satan has the title to rule the earth and we're gonna get raptured out of here before it gets spicy. Am I right? Now the ruse of our gentlemen's agreement of live and let live has been broken and the beast and the harlot are once again demanding complete and total surrender of the Church to Pagan Universal Unitarianism and god states. They always want that pinch of incense to their god. The pagans and apostates know dominionisim is inescapable and they're playing for keeps. A wise man once said "You cannot serve two masters." It is the church's fault the world is falling apart and the pagans are taking dominion because we constructed theological excuses to shirk the hard work of the dominion mandate and great commission. May God grant repentance and may the Word spark reformation and righteous obedience to the truth of the gospel of the kingdom.
yah, ok. So my eschatology doesn't cause me nor give me permission to reshape how I obey the two greatest commandments - love God, love people. Having said this, I'm not necessarily completely opposed to the possibility of postmillennialism (w/ a partial-preterist hat, maybe; that full-preterist suit is whacked). However, our world is currently in a full Romans 1:18-32 freefall. Throw in the technology hockey-stick growth, AI, robots, chipping, control, etc. etc. - hey something has got to give. I mean people actually think there are north of 70 genders - really? We live in a very, very bizarre world. An inflection point is imminent. The question I have is will it be judgement, revival, or both?
Friend, I was once in your shoes. I am only 32 years old, I had a moment in life where God did not answer any of my prayers. Ive tried everything you mentioned above. I came to a bankruptcy and started doubting Christianity I was raised in, but never doubted Gods existence. I never had a true passion reading Gods word and one day I walked outside of my parents house by the pool and I prayed to God exactly how I felt. I told Him I don’t really love you because my deeds prove the opposite, I hate Christianity because I battle with my sin and never have victory. I said God I am done, I give up on trying. One thing I only said and promised God that I will wake up at 6 in the morning every day and read the scripture against my will. It was in 2015 day before thanksgiving, I was reading through Ephesians and I got to the 8th verse of chapter 2 and the lights went on !!! The vail was off, it all of a sudden clicked. I was bawling for the next couple hours with a joyful heart, and I knew 100% that I’ve been redeemed. All I want to tell you is read the scripture even if it’s against your will and pray and God will open your eyes through scripture !!!
Ironically, as you indicated, the reasons for doubting that time will march on very long are mostly technological. What happens when the first human egg and sperm are made entirely with CRISPR and biological components from other sources, so that none of the material came from another human? Breaking the chain so that this person - grown in an artificial womb - isn't actually related to the rest of the human race? Is he outside of Adam's race and unable to be saved? If not, it would suggest that only the physical substance of humanity and not the biological origin is necessary to be part of our race, which undermines the reason why Jesus needed to be born, does it not? Since he could've been fully formed and still be our kinsman-redeemer without a natural birth. This and certain other things which are much farther off (teleportation -- a scientific test for the soul, if the body on the other end slumps over because the original was destroyed, it shows that simply having the hardware without the soul doesn't result in life) would either remove the need for faith or would complicate things for how we see other people (not to mention "mind uploading") and I suspect Jesus would return before then. We also have a deadline -- our genomes accumulate on average 20 errors every generation, if I recall correctly. This has resulted in things like our race-wide broken vitamin C synthesis gene, and the increase of hereditary genetic illnesses as time marches on, even as we wipe out more and more infectious agents. Predictions suggest that we don't have more than 300 human generations left until we become either infertile or unviable (too broken to live). That's 10,000 years, give or take, though maybe 5,000 for homeschoolers, lol. This one can be fixed by gene therapy in the intervening time, which it's likely technology would advance to be able to do. But there it is, one consideration.
Love Doug But he has a very bad Premise: He assumes dispensationalists live like they will be raptured and don't hedge for the future. I would disagree, because God's word specifically commands believers to live as though He was not coming back and to be caught serving when He returns. So any dispensationalists who live that way are living in contradiction to the commands spoken by Christ Jesus. So the entire video is sort of based upon a false premise. Postmil perspective shouldn't change how a person lives. Take if from a guy who was not left with much from his parents, who is now currently working to leave an inheritance for his children WITH a dispensationalist outlook. This is a very hard road that I am not allowed to give up even if I think the return could be soon and I am kicking against the goads. Would've expected some scripture or some other sound logical evidence. I don't see Christ reigning in the way they say He is. Men are not rewarded according to their deeds. If He is indeed reigning, we reign in our suffering and pain. If He is indeed reigning, we reign in long-suffering and patience. Again if He reigns, He reigns as He has reigned in forbearance and patience in humility. And if we reign with Him, we reign also in our humility in subjection to all current authorities with respect to uncompromised truth which tells Caesars that they are indeed sinners in need of a Savior and repentance. Once more, if we reign with Him, we reign in our BEING PUT TO DEATH all day long like sheep to the slaughter. And this seems much more equivalent to what scripture teaches. I don't understand where some get the idea that obedience = immediate abundance/blessings. Its akin to the message Joel Osteen preaches but with respect to different material blessing. This is not how we reign. We reign with our bloodshed and sacrifice as we constantly strain ourselves to uphold both godliness and contentment with circumstance. We strain to both work and maintain a Godly life in an age which does not allow you to do this. We live under Pharaoh which tells us to make bricks without straw. God is not this way. God provides the brick itself and even the strength. It's evident God reigns now and has a system in place, but it is not a system of strict judgement, but one that IS EXCEEDINGLY MERCIFUL as it allows for rapists to live and even thrive. This is how he reigns. Dispensationalists I know and follow absolutely would love if postmil was true. I myself would love it. It would be amazing and my work would be rewarded. I'm not sure what the millennium means though I would invite some explanation. Or I might have to continue my study in this area. I am not all knowing.
Agree with all of this and left a bunch of comments on this video elaborating on that which I won't repeat here, but which I'll notify you of in case you're eager to jump in additional threads to read or comment.
The basic things postmil puts forth are not things that imo contradict a futurist reading of Revelation. I can definitely see Christian influence growing over time and there still being a coup at the end by the forces of evil. No contradiction there. I'm inspired to write a sci Fi book on it, something no one has actually done
@@christopherwatkins7547 I don't know if you can really say _the same thing,_ lol, just because I don't have a story mapped out at all. Right now it's just a concept. I will say that I have been very much influenced by Isaac Arthur (phenomenal channel) in visualizing the setting, and the idea for how to organize chapters comes from Leon Uris' _The Hajj._ I feel like I should obtain and read The Space Trilogy by CS Lewis before putting pen to paper. The basic concept is to speculate on elements of postmillennialism and dispensational premil and how the future might unfold if "both were true," in the most important aspects - namely, continual growth of the kingdom and increasing influence over humanity (postmil) and a futurist view of the prophetic revelation of Daniel and Revelation, that most of the things spoken of are definite individuals and places and not allegorical references to systems unless otherwise indicated. For example, though I'm premil pretrib, I interpret Mystery Babylon to be a symbol representing all false [organized] religion from the dawn of time, which is 'mysteriously' connected to Nimrod at Babel creating the first state religion focused on defying God and creating a one world government for the purpose of successfully persecuting the saints to utter destruction. It's very similar to how amils or postmils view the reference, maybe identical to some. But as a premil pretrib guy, I still view the destruction of Mystery Babylon as a futurist prophecy, namely that what is described is that all the governments of the world will coordinate to finally destroy all organized non-state religion and unify under a secular tyrannical state, the so called NWO or one world government. I think Revelation indicates that this will happen at one point in time in the future, and the whore's identification of being drunk with the blood of the saints is a reference to the fact that it was always false believers who persecuted the people of God. Some might interpret her to be government, based on the belief that bloody persecution is really a government function. I suppose, based on my current understanding, that without a futurist view, amils and postmils simply see this passage as referring to the continual tension between the State and organized false religion, as they vie for power over people but are most often not unified but separate political entities. What I'm thinking about is how the prophecies of Revelation would play out if they were primarily futurist, BUT don't play out within the next hundred years, but rather, 6,000 years or so. What happens when there's 2 billion Jews in Israel and a trillion in rotating space habitats in the asteroid belt? What would the significance of Wormwood be if humanity has a hundred moon-based or orbital habitat colonies throughout the solar system, colonies at Alpha Centauri, Procyon, Sirius, Epsilon Eridani, Tau Ceti, and others in between? What would occur with the two witnesses' dead bodies being seen by everyone if there's light lag involved? How would human society develop with increasing Christian influence together with near-term advanced technology like artificial wombs, digital facsimiles of human personalities, full VR, millions of self-sustaining cylindrical habitats housing millions of people with their own nature preserves and armies, etc etc. The setting is fascinating on its own, but the challenge will be to work in compelling protagonists without getting tempted to do too much exposition.
@Jennifer Mugrage have not. I have never tried to be a writer, containing myself in my own personal journal or online forums, but I think I finally found something that hasn't been done before, at least not successfully (pending a read of the space trilogy to see what Lewis already put in there)
Question: He has referenced this super post mil sermon several times that wasn't post mil in language. Can you let me know if this sermon is available to listen to?
True. The dispensational premill church and tradition I grew up in produced fear of having children and doing something in society because there probably would not be a future. So why have children? Why have anything to contribute to your community? Just hunker down and get ready for the rapture because the world will be so horrible that we need not even have any children. Now we are reaping the benefits of this system of thought.
I went post-mill shortly after seminary when I learned of a new author taking a preterist approach. All the trying to fit the dispensational approach onto scripture disappeared. I think pre-mil is fatalistic and denies the ultimate power we have been granted.
was considering all of the post mill positions and ultimately scripture took me back to pertrib rapture. sorry! still love and respect Doug just cant square the '70AD everything went down' position. Also selectively picking 'millenium' as meaning a 'long time' is just too much of a stretch for me. That being said, Christian brothers and sisters should not be divided over eschatology, it is not an ultimate issue anyway. Christ is King, the rest is a mystery.
millennium as a long time is the least difficult aspect for me, lol. The triplicate references to the half of the tribulation being 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1260 days makes it impossible to see that as an allegory, and I'm not convinced that that matches to any sequence of time around 70 AD. Then there's the two witnesses, Wormwood, the sun scorching the earth, 2/3 of everyone dying, etc etc. There's no way that a preterist could be preterist ONLY and not also historicist or idealist with respect to the VAST majority of the prophetic elements, and then that undermines the whole argument that it concerns something that happened in 70 AD. The premil view takes the first part of Matthew 24 as "telescopic" - that it does talk about near term stuff, but then it shifts to talk about far-term stuff, like several other OT prophecies do, which while annoying to decipher is not unprecedented. Need I remind anyone that 'the virgin will give birth' was given without introductory context as the immediate reply to concerns about the immediate political climate 600+ years before, in Isaiah? That's not unusual at all.
@@seasidelife9742 your logic is self refuting since the Jews and gentiles are clearly different people regardless of your eschatology but it doesn't cause the problem you're presenting
The phrase “keep you from” in Rev. 3:10 is “tereo se ek” in Greek. Tereo appears 75 times in the Bible and is translated “keep” 57 of those. “Se” means “you”, and “ek”which is translated “from” in Rev. 3:10 is often translated “out of”. It literally means to be out of both the time and place of the event it concerns. Therefore it’s correct to say that the Lord will keep the Church out of the time and place of the hour of trial being referenced in Rev. 3:10. This translation makes Rev. 3:10 agree with 1 Thes. 1:10 where Paul said the Lord will rescue (deliver) the church from the wrath to come. John 17:15 is part of a prayer that begins in John 17:6 and continues through John 17:19. Jesus was offering it on behalf of His disciples who were there with Him on the night of His arrest. Some try to use this verse as an argument against the pre-Trib rapture. But to do so, they have to change both the purpose and scope of His prayer, which was to seek divine protection from Satan for His disciples.
Ah, but Rev. 3:10 was to the Church of Philadelphia; we're not in that time period anymore. We're in the Laodicean Church Age. So, those who WERE in the Philadelphian Church Age are all dead; hence, they were "kept from the hour of trial that is coming". Nothing about a Pre-Trib. Rapture in Rev. 3:10, though. Questions? Let me know. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 Revelation 3:10 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Tereo ek tay-reh'-o Verb NAS Word Usage - Total: 71 1. to attend to carefully, take care of a. to guard b. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is c. to observe d. to reserve: to undergo something Ek ek Preposition NAS Word Usage - Total: 62 1. out of, from, by, away from harpazō 1) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away
@@donhaddix3770 But, there's no Rapture in Rev. 3:10, if you think there is, then prove it. There is no "harpadzo" in Rev. 3:10. That's 1 Thes. 4:17. Not Rev. 3:10.
While the Doctrine itself may ruffle some peoples feathers another issue is the current culture/attitudes of people who hold the position. People can disagree with the position without feathers being ruffled. But just like a Calvanist in "Cage Stage" there seems to be a movement of people "#datpostmil" who can ruffle the feathers. Where anytime you are having a conversation; everything gravitates back to postmill conversation. Everything from crypto, politics, the environment or the Gospel gets put through the filter or lens of Postmill and that to me is where it can be dangerous.
Because postmillennialism demands a long-term view of the world. It is the lens through which the world is viewed. This is Doug's entire point throughout the entire video.
Yeah, when anyone holding the view expresses a tendency to see you as immature because you disagree, that's not good. It implies they don't fully understand their own position, and certainly not the alternatives
@Caleb P Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you. -- Deuteronomy 32:7
I recommend to every Christian should must read Rushdoony’s book institutes of biblical law . Entire biblical view will change . And I believe that post mil is only true biblical eschatology. Christians are called to expand God’s kingdom on earth . Our father which art in heauen, halowed be thy name. Thy Kingdome come. Thy will be done euen in earth, as it is in heauen.
I recommend every Christian should actually read their Bible and foster and develop their relationship with God first and foremost, so that they have a solid foundation. They should do this without Biblical commentaries (not an absolute) and books written by men to ensure that they clearly understand God's will for their life and that Spirit of God testifies with their spirit. Now that they know they are good with God and hearing from Him and know His will, they can test what they hear from men like Rushdoony, Calvin etc. and discern truth from error. Andrew, had you done this, instead of being hyped up and filled with new excitement and knowledge from the mind and words of Rushdoony, you would have realized what He teaches isn't Biblical and doesn't align with God's will.
Copying because what I wrote was relevant to your sentiment and you and a few people share it: This isn't a great argument, though, since the charge has been levied against calvinism that it leads to apathy. It certainly does not -- among MATURE believers. It is certainly true that less mature individuals who are exposed to these teachings don't incorporate them well, and thus produce such an impression on others. While there may be a tendency to escapism in pretribulational premil, the flip side is that postmil may be influenced by a wishful-thinking tendency to optimism. Both are two ways that people with cognitive dissonance can deal with fear of the future. It will get bad, but you get to escape the worst of it (premil) or It won't get bad, don't worry (postmil). Choosing between the two shouldn't be done on the basis of whether we doubt our personal cynicism or optimism. :)
Answer - because the saints that know God's will are told to test all things and hold fast to what is good, and post-mil = no good. We must therefore combat this error in the best way we can possible without getting into the flesh.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Also as an aside, this is a very poor representation of Christ's power and glory if this is His millennial reign currently. It sure looks like a world still dominated by sin and total depravity.
@Jennifer Mugrage Compared to a future world where the wicked have been purged, Satan is chained and powerless, demons no longer infest the earth and Christ rules with an iron rod as King with the glorified saints as his ministers.
@Jennifer Mugrage I’m not sure why you would think that. There are less demons in certain places than others but I don’t think there’s anywhere that they can’t be. Many churches in the US are full of them. A church that puts out some of the most popular praise and worship music which is sung at many churches across the US does things like grave soaking and teaches their children to astral travel(!) The psychedelic renaissance is exposing more people to demons than ever before and “psychedelic medicine” is starting to gain legitimacy. Satanism has gone mainstream and is all over pop culture. The new age religion in general is absolutely everywhere you look if you know what you’re looking for. So, no the demons have absolutely not been driven out, they are pouring back in.
@Jennifer Mugrage I understand where you’re coming from. My understanding is that Jesus revoked the authority of the local gods. That’s why people marveled at his ability to cast out demons, it wasn’t normally possible. And perhaps there were times and places where the presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong that the demons couldn’t operate. However, the world is less and less Christian these days. The US is largely pagan now, paganism/Gnosticism/new age has even infiltrated the churches. I mean the opening invocation for the 2021 congressional session was dedicated to Brahman. Monuments to Ba’al have been erected in a few big cities. Before I became born again I was an enlightened mystic. I practiced a kind of mediation that’s based on ancient Buddhist and Hindu techniques. I got into the new age religion by reading an author, Eckhart Tolle, that Oprah has heavily promoted. Millions of people have his books. I was into a popular music scene that is all kinds of pagan. I’d go to shows and witches would be doing ceremonies at the back of the venue. I have astrally traveled and I have had encounters with demonic entities. I promise you, paganism has not lost its power and there are demons all over. The new age religion is the fastest growing religion in the world. The prosperity gospel churches have taken it and wrapped it in Gnostic Jesus. The NAR churches are practicing it and bringing demons into their worship services. It’s everywhere, in everything - music, tv, movies, games, politics - the world is saturated in it. And it’s wrapped in light and many are deceived. This world is fallen and will continue to be until Jesus finally returns. 🙏🏻
@Jennifer Mugrage tell that to a Christian in South Sudan, or North Korea. taking a liberal interpretation of 'millennium' which specifically means 1k years is a slippery slope I think.
When I think of the verse where it says Abraham's descendents will be numbered like the stars or sand in the sea, I think of a population beyond imagination with God in eternity. When I read these verses, and let them speak for themselves, I can no longer take Premil serious, especially not dispy premil.
Because it upsets the devotion to precious conspiracy theories that arise out of pre-mill dispy soil. The soil that assumes Satan " is the god of this world."
Can someone break this down in very simple terms for me? I believe Jesus Christ died and rose again as payment for my sins, I've called on Him to save me. I listen to Bible sermons at least 6 hours a day. Mr Wilson is one of those people I listen to. I didn't grow up in church but I went to church frequently and attended all vacation bible schools available as a kid growing up in rural Alabama in the 70s and 80s. I said the little prayer told to me by the preacher when I was 10. I haven't lived a Christian life. I've been married 3 times and have committed a ton of sin in my life. I'm 48 now and for the past 3-5 years I've been studying/listening to scripture and honestly one day I think I have it figured out and then the next I'm confused again. I called on God 3 years ago and since then some things have definitely changed in my life but I'm still confused or uncertain about if I'm saved or not. I no longer do most of the things I used to and I feel extreme guilt over doing those things. I don't attend any church because I'm so confused on what church to believe is leading me in the right direction. Sorry for the long rant but I'm not confident enough to talk to anyone in person about any of these things. Any advice would be greatly appreciated
The best advice one can give you is to join a church that believes the Bible. That take it seriously and worships seriously. That doesn't mean you will agree with everything, but this is a feature not a bug. You need to be ready to submit and love. And God will bless you.
Doug's denomination is the CREC, which is a mixed denomination of presbyterians and baptists; it's possible you can find one of these churches near you. Also. I'd recommend being willing to drive up to an hour, and if there is literally no place closer (after you have actually looked), there's the choice to START a church (asking a denomination to send a pastor, for example, is one way), or to MOVE to be closer to one. Don't dismiss the last option too quickly.
The reason postmil-ism upsets people is twofold. First, it inevitably has to turn political. Second, once it turns political, religious disputes become crimes, and the history of postmil believers punishing religious crimes is very, very ugly.
@Jennifer Mugrage It's true that there was a lot of bloodshed way back when. Maybe we should investigate what motivated Christians to behave this way. I think our eschatology affects us more than we may be prepared to admit.
@@MarcusOfLycia Why would you say that some strand of eschatology means we have to adopt the religious views of others? I'm not seeing where that comes from. I would say, however, that in any form of government that is not totalitarian, people will be obliged to accommodate, within limits, the beliefs and views of others. That will be true, by the way, even when the theonomists gain control of their first village -- en route to taking over their county, state, nation, and finally the world. At every point along that long arc of gaining control, there were will disagreements over various beliefs and doctrines. When those disagreements arise, the options will be the same as people had when Servetus was executed -- you either accommodate the heretics or find a way to silence them. When the theonomists control just one little town in, say, northern Idaho, my guess is that they will simply accept the Lutherans and the Baptists and hide their true intentions for us. Most people can see that post-millennialism's belief in theocracy unavoidably brings people to that ultimate choice -- accommodate or crush. Once the theocracy is established (which is what post-mill-ism demands), decisions will have to be made about how to manage the dissenters. Premill-ism, on the other hand, teaches us to persuade people by the Gospel and wait for Jesus Himself to take over the world by force. At that point, with His physical presence here on Earth, we will have a government that is truly benign as well as truly absolute.
@@aidenmarshall6478 he does it on his last posted video for example. And most “reaction” videos. For example: Doug has claimed atheists cannot care about racism, for example, since they don’t believe in god. He presupposes god gives him objective morality but cannot actually demonstrate this to be true. Therefore it’s a false premise and false premises lead to false conclusions.
Fairly new to the concept.... So the postmillenial position is that the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth already happened. Do postmillenialists have a theory as to when that millennium happened?
No it's that we're in the millennium. That's same as amils in a sense.. The idea is that there's no millennium AFTER Jesus returns but it'll be immediately the NHANE.
Put another way, the 'post' does not refer to where we are now, it refers to when Christ returns in reference to the millennium. A - there is none, Christ returns when he returns. Pre - Christ returns pre/before the millennium. Post - Christ returns post/after the millennium
It doesn't ruffle my feathers, I just don't see it in the text, and people have been trying to show me for 33+ years. And how in the world is sending out missionaries and altering our personal lives a distinctly Postmil quality? See... It's statements like that one that make absolutely no sense to me. Maybe being Postmil is a LOT harder for people like me who are infertile and don't have children; I am a sole surviving son, and when I die, my name dies with me. I don't have descendants, so I really don't think generationally; that kind of thinking means nothing to me.
I would point out the passage 'let not the eunuch say 'i am a dry tree' ' to see that you can leave a spiritual legacy even without heirs. Now, I am pretrib premil so I'm not trying to argue for post, here. I have left a bunch of comments on the subject in this comment section and you might agree/find useful some of them if you have time and the curiosity to read them. One of the things I've noted which you're touching on, here, is that it seems many postmils are motivated to hold to that because of sentimentality. We all love our kids. I say that as a single, it's just a truism. So postmils are engaged in a type of wishful thinking just like immature premils are (those who are apathetic escapists)
I love Doug’s intellect and perspicacity on *many* issues, but this one particular subject just doesn’t make sense at all. And that amazes me, but it’s at least not a salvation issue. Postmillenialism strikes me as being almost Hegelian eschatology where somehow humans usher in the Utopia, but you’d have to take a liberal, non-literal “1000 years” interpretation of Revelation in order to arrive at this conclusion. It’s almost mystical in it’s thrust. Are we sure that things are just going to miraculously keep getting better when all of the evidence points to the contrary?
I agree. I also notice that when Doug or James White or anyone else talks about postmillennialism seem to focus on the "think about the future" arguments rather than the biblical. I know they have their reasons biblically for believing postmill, but it seems more like an emotional "I want salvation to spread" taking dominance over biblical evidence
Respectfully, I think things are getting better and better if you look at time in larger chunks. From the time of Christ until now, things are much, much better. We seem to be in a rough spot, no doubt, but the gospel is moving forward globally. It's hard to see when we look to our immediate present, but God works everyday. Having said that, I do believe that the gospel will always have opposition, even to the very end. One day, God will make an end of sin, and on that day, there will be many unbelievers. I think that we should trust that God will keep His word. That His name will be great all over the earth.
@@michaelnapper4565 Genuine question: by what metric do you think things are getting better? General freedoms and liberties, or strictly the spreading of the Gospel? I have a difficult time with the postmil view because I think it equates those two things. That the church will grow and take over and we'll have some Christian utopia. But in the Bible and in reality, I see that is it persecution that spreads the Gospel and it is in the worst circumstances that I see the church flourish. So, I do think many more people will become saved, but not the way that the postmil view tends to assume.
@@alspurgin And the “spreading” of the Gospel includes heretics like TD Jakes and Joel Osteen haha. I’m also very skeptical that the recent events such as worldwide lockdowns and the authoritarian regimes such as China, Iran and Russia making moves is not more evidence of increasing instability and persecution across the globe.
Not all premil, just the dispensational variety often associated with a pre-tribulation rapture. The early church had a variety of different positions represented.
Iow premil was always a thing, the realization that it's the day of God's wrath and we are not appointed to wrath and we will not all die and the gates of hell will not prevail but the beast will prevail over the saints -- that this implies a rapture was first explicitly taught more recently
@Brett Almond Do be aware however that in Luke's parallel to Matthew 24, where there is a reference to one in the field, one in the housetop, one grinding at a mill "taken," this can't be a reference to the rapture because the context is judgment. Those who are taken in that specific passage are taken to destruction. My issue is the same as yours. Fundamentally, I believe the many prophetic details in the OT and NT are TOO SPECIFIC to be successfully allegorized. That and the fact that so many prophecies in the past were literally fulfilled. If the incarnation was still in our future, I am certain that Postmils would spiritualize the virgin birth and suffering servant passages. With everything that we have the benefit of hindsight for, we can see that though there's lots of symbolism present and poetic flair, when specific identifications are made, unless they are otherwise interpreted in the text, are in my awareness always literal. My questions go something like "who are the two witnesses then, and when were they killed and resurrected and what is the fire from heaven they could call down at will symbolizing?" I am interested in learning more about the allegorical interpretations postmils and amils largely share about Revelation. For example the 144,000 are taken to be a reference to the full number (1000) of believing gentiles (12) and believing Jews (12) together resisting the antichrist. But my premil mind says, it specifically says 12,000 from each of the tribes of israel, and there is no way you're combining the gentiles into israel. The argument that the church is true israel doesn't apply here, because even though that should be accepted by everyone, the simple fact is that the ethnic tribes of israel are mentioned by name, and that specificity makes no sense as an allegory, since the true israel, the church, by no means has any distinctions in it like Benjamin, Judah, Isacchar etc anywhere implied in Scripture nor is an identification intuitively possible.
I think some of it is because a lot of pre-mil people equate post-millennialism with super politically liberal social justice type Christians. ( At least that's who I first heard the idea from and immediately dismissed it because I disagreed with them on so many other aspects of life .) The idea that temporal human flourishing is the end goal of the gospel is obviously unbiblical. Later on, I was exposed to the folks at Cannon and Apologia and I'm trying to give post millennialism a fair shake because of them. The ideas of dominionism are certainly more biblical than the borderline socialism often promoted by the other type of post-mils who embrace "nice" ideas about charity and excelling in your work in the Bible while ignoring the law and the biblical models of government. I think it needs to be made very clear that there can be tremendous persecution (and will be) while the gospel continues to be increasingly triumphant and that human suffering will continue until Christ returns in person and reigns in person. But I'm a total newbie and here to learn as much as anything. I really have no idea what I believe about eschatology, which is kind of a scary place but also kind of exciting.
I grant your argument, OP, and suggest that that's the case with premil, too, that many people's view of that is colored by the fact that there's a large overlap with Baptists, of whom many are IFB/SBC or otherwise not Reformed theologically and therefore express an immature or argumentative mindset to the rest of the visible church - and the reason it's spread within Baptist circles is that Baptist covenant theology is one step closer to dispensationalism than presby CT because it makes a distinction between the old and new covenant as two separate covenants whereas presbies see them as two administrations of the covenant of grace. I am still learning the church history but I get the sense that dispensationalism developed out of baptist CT and viewed additional things as distinct between the OT and NT, such as the church and Israel. Where they strayed into heresy was when they saw them as two different spiritual people of God with 2 ways to be saved. But this is not as I understand it basic dispensationalism, which is simply the view that ethnic israel is a distinct prophetic entity that has prophecies pertaining to it and NOT spiritual israel/the church. In summary, I think that's a parallel reality to the idea that postmil was more attractive to pentecostals and prosperity folks who had errant views of the spiritual gifts and God's promises which led them to be more attracted to the idea that we're victorious on earth.
@Jennifer Mugrage I find it very dubious that those events took place in a 3.5 or 7 year period which can be historically verified, AND though there are some good arguments for an early date, I think there are more strong arguments for a later date of the writing of Revelation, which would make preterism moot. Not to mention all the specific prophecies that are as far as I can tell totally ignored, e.g. where was wormwood, when did 2/3 of the earth die, who were the 2 witnesses, and if the Roman empire is the 6th kingdom how can it also be the 7th etc
What I find interesting here is that all of the arguments made had nothing to do with scripture but emotion. I am a pre-trib rapture dude who doesn’t know the day or the hour and I live my life as Doug would describe as post-mil. I am not bothered by Doug’s post-mil stance; I just think it’s wishful thinking. I would love for post-mil to be true, but I simply don’t see it in scripture. The answer to this whole argument is simple... what does Jesus say the world will be like at the end? He says it will be like the days of Noah and it will get worse and worse before His return. Read Matthew 24 where Jesus describes what the world will be like at the time of the end. If you are still post-mil after reading that, I’m not sure what to tell yah.
I agree that I would have liked to see more scripture here. I think that you can read through Matthew 24 and still be post-mil. I can read through it and also see the pre-trib rapture, but only if I hold the chapter in isolation and I don't use Chapter 24 -25 imagery. When I read Chapter 24 I see the more obvious revelation of the fall of Jerusalem, which is clear when it says that this generation will not pass away until these events happen, but this also poses huge issues for belief in a rapture. All the imagery and initial revelation in Jerusalem speaks more of a reverse rapture with the evil being taken away and not the believer being raptured away like in the 20th-century viewpoint. All of the images present the evildoer or those who did not do right by the Lord being taken away or thrown into the darkness. The believer is always shown to be here to stay (ex: the virgins with the oil, the servants with the tablets, Noah and his family). Even the most common rapture passage, Matt 24:40-41 and Luke, you have to read against the grain as it is a reference to Exodus, where the sons of Egypt are "raptured" while the sons of Israel remain protected by the blood of the lamb. If you read through 24 you can see the immediate revelation through the historic desolation of Jerusalem. This is not to say that these passages won't be mirrored in later revelation when the Son returns, but if we are truly trying to exegete Eschtologyf from this passage, we also have to observe how it is fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem. It is very hard to read it that way and also believe that God will pull a full 180 and later rapture His people when the "rapture" we see in Jerusalem is the bodies of unrepentant Jews going up in the smoke of their desolated city, while the true Word goes out to the rest of the world. The rapture acts as a crutch to hold up the seeming inconsistency of how we view the world today. And why do we hold onto this crutch? Because we look around and see a world groaning under sin and we think that the solution is to take man away from it, even though before sin man was created in the context of earth. This is where the Eschologic mindset matters. How do we think God redeems? Does He take away or does He cleanse what is already there through the Son's blood? Exodus gives an answer, Noah gives an answer, the thriving progress of the Church gives an answer. Its difficult for me to read the Bible and be pre-mil or rapture when initial revelation shows a fall of Jerusalem followed by an explosion of Church growth across the earth and still think that final end times will be in the reverse. Interpret unclear signs in symbols through the lens of clear ones. The history of the Jews is a clear one.
@@danekowalick6652 Though I believe in a pre-trib rapture, I am not dogmatic about it since I sincerely do not know. And I'm not sure why some Christians continue to call the rapture a "crutch" or "escapism" as if that is a bad thing. Do you long for heaven? I sure do! Do I want to go through the tribulation? No! But if I have to, then so be it! But my whole argument against post-mil had nothing to do with the rapture; it had everything to do with how Jesus described the conditions of the world before His return. I do not and cannot believe in in the preterist or post-mil views. I think the root of these ideas, that most or all of revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD, is replacement theology; that somehow the church is now "Israel." This idea completely ignores God's plan for Israel as a nation and completely ignores the promises He made to the Jews in the Old Testament. Jesus literally says that the time of the end will be the worst time ever to be experienced on Earth, never to be equaled again. "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24:21 NKJV) Was 70 AD the worst event that has ever taken place on the planet? Hardly! If you ask some theologians about the significance of Israel becoming an nation again on May 14th, 1948, some will say that it has no relevance... and yet the Bible says otherwise: Israel Rebirthed-in a Day After nearly two millennia and a succession of foreign rulers, on May 14, 1948, David Ben Gurion declared the restoration of the Jewish State, Israel, saying, “In order to be a realist, you must believe in miracles.” Isaiah seemed just as incredulous, challenging: “Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment?” (Isaiah 66:8) We have seen it-in our lifetime! Jerusalem Restored to the Jews-“Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24b) The Desert Will Bloom and Blossom-The prophet Isaiah saw a time when “the desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom” (Isaiah 35:1). It’s almost impossible to believe, but the fledgling State of Israel has developed such revolutionary agricultural methods, that even the sand produces lush crops! In her short time of existence as a modern State, Israel became the largest exporter of roses to Europe. The Hebrew Language Revived-According to the prophet Zephaniah, God would “restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one accord” (Zephaniah 3:9 NKJV). In the late 1800s, Russian immigrant to Israel, Eliezer Ben-Yehudah, revived the ancient Hebrew language, giving the returning exiles of Israel a common language. Israel is God's prophetic timeclock and for post-mil or preterism to hold any water, you have to take Israel completely out of the equation... hence replacement theology. There is so much more that I could say, but I'm sure you have your mind made up and I'm not expecting to change it. These are just some of the many reasons behind my eschatological beliefs. - Shalom
Honestly, the thing with hard eschatology is: Who cares?! There are souls to save, work to be done, and Spiritual wars to wage for the Name of God! You'll find out everything you need to know about eschatology when it happens, but you will not be able to reverse the clock and work while there's light.
"who cares, there are souls to save" IS a doctrinal position, so the answer is, YOU care. You care enough to assert the position that people should not be caring about these issues. That in itself is a position on the issues. You're not neutral
Did you guys not read what I said? "Hard eschatology." The Bible literally says not to let there be divisions amongst the church, but many will attach great importance to a specific view on eschatology. As much as theology and eschatology are important things, we'd do better to remember 1 Corinthians 13 than to batter each other over eschatological differences.
I must confess I get a sick sense of satisfaction watching dispys and posmils go at it. It reminds me of this one time when two of the special-ed kids got in a fight on the playground. We all knew we should probably break the fight up or go get the playground duty... but due to the depravity of our childish little hearts, we couldn't tear ourselves away. Oh wretched man that I am...
I'm not convinced that "post" is the best explanation and neither are my "feathers" ruffled because you believe it is. We just have a different way of doing our hermeneutics and how we see the signs of the times playing out. Our various conclusions, however, though seemingly distant and contrary to one another are secondary and not salvific and we all agree on the essential quality of the faith - that "this Jesus, who has been taken up from [us] into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” And in that prospect, we can both rejoice. Even so come, Lord Jesus!
I would honestly say that I agree with Doug about behavioral change. But further, we, when in the flesh, conforming our minds to it instead of the Spirit focus on the NEGATIVE. 'If it bleeds it leads' as the news saying goes. Just look at the last 22 months. Fear and horror at every turn. And so many people just gobbled it up. What better than to have a baptized "God approved" belief system that completely justifies all your pessimisstic-glass-half-empty-prepper-stuff-hit-the-fan emotions than Pre-Mill dispensationalism? Further still I believe it's because we think us living now are the best and only people to have ever lived and thus care very little about history and have never known about true persecution, war and famine and such. Only in plush-cushy 20th century America could this type of belief take off. Woe is me!
This is not a great argument against premil because postmils can be subject to the accusation of being wishful thinkers also, their sentimentality is just focused on "i want a better life for my kids," as opposed to "i don't want to suffer." Still an emotional reaction. We shouldn't judge the different positions based on what kind of emotional person they attract.
@@horrificpleasantry9474 the same logic can be applied to pre mill. Many have a victim complex and think everything is about them. But if that's not good enough for you. Think about the fact that this thought of pre mill rapture theology developed in the 19th century in modern sophisticated wealthy culture. And more than that because of a girl who had a dream and told it to a bible teacher and he moved from there. (this is the rapture I'm speaking about) But the overall Disspensalist views is wrong because they split up Matthew 24. Daniels 70th week and view AD 70 as no big thing. Also many believe that ethnic Israel is saved in a separate way from Christ meaning they are saved because of their lineage and not because of faith in jesus. That is heresy my friend. Check out Gary demar, or Jordan B Peterson. American vision has a ton of resources. I used to hold the view of pre mill but its only true if you have no other view or have not seen anything raised against it. When you do with a honest mind you should see it's woefully lacking
@@Richardcontramundum postmils seem to split mat 24 into preterist and idealist portions too. And two ways of salvation is definitely heresy but that's a theological excess, like paedobaptism and EFS (not to say that those two are damnable), and not because the root hermeneutic is wrong, only the application
Revelation 3:10 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Tereo ek tay-reh'-o Verb NAS Word Usage - Total: 71 1. to attend to carefully, take care of a. to guard b. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is c. to observe d. to reserve: to undergo something Ek ek Preposition NAS Word Usage - Total: 62 1. out of, from, by, away from harpazō 1) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away Restrainer holy spirit removed 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 New International Version 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. Holy spirit is in the born-again. So they have to go. Revelation 3:10 New International Version 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. tereo guard by removal. from the whole earth. ◄ 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ► New International Version For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. The tribulation. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 ESV / 31 helpful votes Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” last trump of church age. Revelation 1 7 lamp-stand equal 7 churches/ages. After the rapture replaced by the 2 witnesses. Matthew 25 New International Version The Parable of the Ten Virgins 25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. thief in the night. unknown time. any time other than pretrib is known. Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the final week, the seven-year tribulation period: “[A ruler] will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Jesus refers to this passage in Matthew 24:15. The ruler who confirms the covenant and then sets up the abomination is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. According to Daniel 9:27, the beast’s covenant will be for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 ½ years into the tribulation), the beast will break the covenant, putting a stop to the Jewish sacrifices. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 ½ years (the second half of the tribulation). So, we see a covenant lasting to the middle of the “week” (Daniel 9:27) and the beast who made the covenant demanding worship for 42 months (Revelation 13:5). Therefore, the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. We also have a reference to the last half of the tribulation in Daniel 7:25. There, the ruler will oppress God’s people for “a time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=½ year; total of 3 ½ years). This time of oppression against the Jews is also described in Revelation 13:5-7 and is part of the “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation when the beast, or the Antichrist, will be in power.
Does postmil ruffle feathers, or many of the people who preach it? I say this as a fan of Doug Wilson, Jeff Durbin and RC Sproul, though I am unconvinced of the postmil position. I don't care if a Christian holds that view in the same way that I don't care if someone holds to dispensationalism (though both lead to some strange theological conclusions about non-eschatology theology), but in either case, the way you advocate for it matters, and people in both those camps can be quite antagonistic proselytizers.
I think any changing theological view is tough for Christians to swallow. If they've been taught a particular view and they first hear it, they're going to reject it initially. But if they study/search the scriptures (Acts 17:11, 2 Timothy 2:15) to see if it is true and they find that it is, they will eventually accept it by the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is part of their sanctification. I don't think it's fair to say any differing view of the millennial would stop the gospels or missions (maybe a bit perhaps, but not just based on this) because Christians are commanded and sent to proclaim the gospel (Romans 10:14-17). I know plenty of Christians that are premil that proclaim the gospel with zeal and fire. Full disclosure, I am premil in my eschatological thinking, and know many brethren that hold to the postmil view that I love and respect, and I have no problem listening to contrary views, but they need to do it giving me book, chapter, and verse. That would be the key for me to changing my view. Just commentaries on this view or telling me how Christians get certain texts wrong doesn't always do it for me. Let me explain what I mean: when I wanted to teach another brother or sister in the Lord about God's sovereignty in salvation, I can go verse by verse through Romans 9 (just using this as an example) and have them read it with me. I can actually have them read it and say, what does that verse say? And let them explain to me what it says, not what they want it to say. Doing this helped many to see that it said what it said. Now let me begin by saying if I am misrepresenting the postmil view, then I apologize and someone correct me. But if I'm not mistaken, they don't believe the millennium in Revelation 20:1-6 is literal and we're living in it now. That Revelation 4-19 has already past (and may be speaking about events in 70 AD). That Christians will evangelize and many will be converted, practically to the point where they will (in many ways) reign in the government in terms of policies lining up with Christian values (almost like a theocracy). This will all happen during the millennial period until Christ returns. Again, if this overarching view is incorrect, I apologize. Taking this all into consideration, if believers that don't hold to this view want to be taught this view through scripture, then they will have questions that they should have. If Revelation 4-19 is past, then they may have questions about the symbolism (how should it be interpreted and does all the interpretations between postmils line up); about the beast and the mark; about the 144,000 (are they actually tribes or is it just symbolic); and how do all these verses line up with the events of 70 AD. How do Christians rule in a theocracy type way based on the doctrine of total depravity (Romans 3:9-20, Jeremiah 17:9, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.)? And can someone go through the Revelation 20:1-6 and explain everything connected with the 1000 years (because it is mentioned six times) in light of Satan being bound, Satan no longer deceiving the nations (in light of Ephesians 6:10-18), the first resurrection, and even Christ coming on a white horse with an army in Revelation 19:11-16. I don't mean this to be a jerk; it's just something many want to know and sometimes I don't see others plainly going verse by verse and just showing what the verses say in an expository way.
Yep, my issues include the sheer specificity of the prophecies, and lack of adequate allegorical interpretations of them, that would justify seeing them as anything but future events.
“All of us are quietly post mil.” Um, no. Missions are consistent with dispensationalism. So it’s not post millennialism that ruffles my feathers. It’s Doug’s statement like this that begins to do so.
@@micahmartin4762 that statement you quoted reinforces to me that most postmil are such not because it makes better sense of Revelation but because it has the best explanation of how we ought to view the sweep of history - as a victory march, overall, for the church. But this says nothing about whether or not there will be a coordinated attempt to create an NWO at the end of that time which God will remove his church from in order to execute judgment on the whole planet.
Then the problem becomes we have to prove “Why postmil”? When you try to explain why Revelation supports this view it makes them double-check whether you have a tinfoil hat on your head.
Indeed. Every brother and sister in my personal sphere that I have told that I'm looking into and even leaning towards Postmillenialism has reacted to me as though I have become a heretic lol.
@@ZeeroDubs You might benefit from some of my comments in the thread, which I think are nuanced enough to grant the positives but also show some of the issues I have with postmil that maybe don't get mentioned. For your consideration
I think anyone can find an emotional or philosophical preference for their particular eschatology. I just don't see postmil in the narrative of scripture. I think all sides proof text to some extent at least, but I just don't see it
I have such a sadness in my heart because postmills think of premillennials as being escapists with no interest in future missions. Why? Every single sober minded, Word loving pretribs are passionate about preaching, sharing the Gospel not out of fear but for people who need to know the way to Heaven so they don’t end up in Hell. Pretribs do not know and do not claim to know that exact time when Jesus comes back, but He will and the postmills don’t know either. A little humility would be nice from postmills. Planting a hedge with the certainty that it will live for another hundred years doesn’t mean much to me, but sharing the Gospel with as many people as the Lord will bring is what all of us need to do. Finally, to ignore the World we are now living in and the seemingly ‘prophetic’ occurrences happening now appears to me to be ignorant of what sober minded pretribs have been saying for decades, NWO ( Great Reset - that fits) Transformers political agenda being made the most powerful issue in many countries, the demolishing of history, the world market becoming one world currency, all religions unifying under one head, microchips implants in Sweden and being promoted all over the world etc, etc! How do postmills explain all these pretrib prophecies?
As a born and raised postmil I actually agree about the lack of humility being one reason - we’re so used to being the minority we tend to come out with guns blazing for the premils 😬 Which is obviously very off-putting to anyone. As far as prophecies, the Bible gives us a really clear statement about prophets: if what they prophecy doesn’t happen, they’re false prophets. There’s been so many false prophecies by the dispensationalists it’s really hard to keep taking each new one seriously. A good book that goes into some of this would be “End Times Madness” by DeMar.
Point blank- The issue I have with Post Mil is that it totally throws out a literal interpretation of Scripture and even attempts to thwart the prophecies of God that are solidified in scripture. I don’t believe in pre or post although I see the arguments on both sides. I used to be sold out pre but moved to the middle of “searching.” I think Matthew 24 is a great post mil passage. But again, to think that we can steer the world in a better direction based on our choices is not only a works-based form of the gospel, but a totally illogical one.
In the end, it doesn't make a difference which view is true. If premil is true, then at the return of christ all the elect would have been saved, no more, no less, than all the elect. Same if amil is true. Same is postmil os true. People like to say their view is better, but it doesn't make a difference, at least not in the topic that is being discussed in this view, the salvation of the lost.
And you don't have to believe that things will get better over time before God's return, you can do great things even believing that things won't get worse.
It does make a difference. When Christians live according to premil theology we get times like today. When they live according to postmil theology church history shows you get reformation and societies that conform more closely to God's law with greatly improved levels of shalom.
I am pre-millennial and post trib, and I agree with what he says about taking care of what you do now because it affects the future. I simply don’t adhere to the post millennial view because the Bible teaches very matter-of-factly of a pre-millennial scenario, reference Matthew 24 and 25, Revelation and many other passages. And yet I am still very concerned with how I walk because I know it will affect my children, and I’m praying for their salvation and hope that my future generations are Godly. I don’t see that in any conflict with the pre-millennial view. With the world getting worse and more ungodly it makes me extra thoughtful of living upright and Godly so my children will have a Christian example in a dark world. I don’t really find that it “ruffles feathers” though, at least not in my experience.
"With the world getting worse..." The world is getting worse in terms of more recent history, but the world has been much worse in the past than what it is now. The only reason people think the world now is the "worst it's ever been" is because of the media.
You're arguing that the effect supports the existence of the cause. The same argument can be made for premill and preterist and even amil positions. Thats the constant philosophical loop we find ourselves in with eschatology. Why not embrace all positions and live according to the best outcomes of each, realizing each has firm biblical support and realizing the Holy Spirit could have made it less ambiguous of He wanted to?
3) it seems sentimentality motivates affinity for this doctrine, namely sentimental affection for one's children and grandchildren 4) it doesn't successfully address the sheer specificity of prophecies in Revelation from an allegorical interpretation
My problem with postmill is that it tends to be presented as very utopian, a Heaven on earth. And we criticize (rightly!) that attitude in every other religion or philosophy. So it may just be a gut reaction to any idea of an earthly Utopia that gets my hackles raised. Also, the Puritans were postmill and theocratic. And look how quickly it fell apart. Two hundred years later and we're here. Look at Europe, also Christian in the past. I'm not seeing much to back up this postmill assurance. True, we may be in the early church and this is simply a low point. But you can understand my skepticism.
Perhaps it ruffles feathers because the Postmill view seems to be preached with a lack humility and comes across as condescending to those that believe otherwise. My impression of Postmill people is that they care more about making the government Christian than they care about reaching unbelievers / missions. My honest opinion of Postmill is (at least what I see from this channel): send your kids to Christian schools or homeschool them, keep your wife in the kitchen, rarely interact with the outside world, lest we have to witness to them, and be a thorn in the side of the government. Funny how that sounds exactly how a Postmill would describe the person "hunkering down for the rapture". And why would I pull my kids from a public school? There goes the opportunity for them to witness to other children. I'm Premill but I work hard for my family and save for retirement with the hope Jesus returns before I ever draw on those funds. I don't see in the Bible how we're to make this world a Christian utopia. I don't see how we're to live for this world at all. We're to shift our focus to eternal things, something I could do more of as well.
@@jakesanders136 golly gee, it’s a good thing Carl Moore spoke up…cuz without him, and minus an ability to think for yourself, you’d still be wandering the hallway wondering which door to open…
@@DM-dk7js are your ‘feathers ruffled’ by unicorns? Re-incarnation? Scientology? Mormon theology? None of these things are ‘real’…your logic is flawed…feathers are ruffled by that which is ‘real’ (Truth), not that which is not ‘real’ (unTruth)…and MOST folks are busy suppressing the Truth (Romans 1), which is why feathers get ruffled in the first place…
Doug obviously has never met a fundamentalist before, or if he did he didn’t pay attention to him. Fundies are the most dispensational people on the planet and would never dare put their kids in public school. In fact, postmil people should be more willing to do so because the church is gonna take over and fix them, right?
And really? Dispies dont think about their grandchildren? This is all complete made up propaganda. If he wants to sound like he has any clue what he’s talking about (and I’m not convinced he does), he should reference the claims of actual people, not pull out random caricatures he made up.
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can you all find the SERMON that Doug was talking about and link it?
@@Richardcontramundum Yes I have heard him reference this several times. I would like to know too.
"Live as though you will have descendants !"...Thanks Doug
You nailed it on the head. A lifetime (60+ years) of being dispensational, the quandries got to be too much. And missions is a major key to this. Oh, to just escape it all. Oh, to spend all my time trying to connect verses to the current news events. Nuts. We have work to do! Thanks.
As someone who is not (perhaps yet) postmil, I can honestly say that it doesn't ruffle my feathers at all. I agree with Doug that part of me wishes that it was true, I just can't reconcile it hermeneutically at the moment. And I am always cautious about embracing a theological position that I want to be true. I've seen too many people twist the Scriptures in their own minds so as to make uncomfortable truths (like hell, predestination, etc.) disappear.
But I can guess that the reason that the postmil position may ruffle feathers is that, taken in the wrong light, may seem to the outsider to lack urgency. If you believe that we still have thousands of years to go, then the urgency of getting the Great Commission done seems lessened somehow. Knowing that it will all work out in the end seems to diminish the importance of reaching the lost TODAY. However, that is just a guess.
Another possible guess as to why it rubs people the wrong way is that it is always uncomfortable when something that you have always believed to be true is challenged. Being raised Premil, Pretrib dispensational, I know it hit me hard when I first heard that view challenged. I haven't held that position for almost 30 years, but I still remember the punch in the gut feeling when I found out that the Bible doesn't teach that we were going to be beamed up before the really bad stuff happens. It was quite unnerving.
Nah I'm still premil pretrib even though I can see how history could march on for thousands of years and we colonize the galaxy
I think it's almost certainly the second half, in many cases. It's funny cuz regarding your first half, the postmillennialist makes the same argument. Why polish brass on a sinking ship?
I would overall agree. Though the urgency has nothing to do with it. Most people that are pre mill dispy are anything and everything BUT urgent about evangelism and living out their faith. They are more holy huddle. Not everyone, but most
Lately as I have been looking into getting more into evangelism and training myself up…the most effective evangelists (at least the ones I’ve run into) all seem to be postmill. The belief that their faithfulness will be used by the Spirit to bless Christs future church seems to them a good fuel. Verses I do know some very solid amill brothers but when they evangelize it’s almost more out of just bare obedience. Which isn’t a bad thing. Our obedience should t be based on positive results. Just read Isaiah 6. But I think if that’s all it is, it gets more irksome more quickly. Just some thoughts. I don’t know where I’m at on eschatology but am recognizing a need to figure it out fast in these turbulent times. God Bless!
@@TheDrummaBen Ironically, it was taking a very literal view of Revelation that led me to predicting that it would most likely happen decades, if not a century or two, in the future. The main influence in that was the 'islamic antichrist' theory that you may have heard of. Joel Richardson (not to be confused with Rosenberg) is as far as I can tell a genuine believer (there are many others in this space who are questionable) though he seems to be on the charismatic/continuationist end of things, but that does not in and of itself make him unsaved or immature. He's the guy to read on the subject. You can find his book in its entirety on Answering-Islam (not to be confused with Answering-Muslims (David Wood, good guy) or Answering-Christians (the muslim counterpoint to the latter), which is where I read it. He makes the argument elsewhere, not in the book itself, that when Daniel says "the PEOPLE of the prince to come destroy the Temple," that the majority of those who actually dismantled the Temple were Turks and they did so against their Roman leaders' orders. Argument being, the 7th kingdom is not a revived roman empire but a revived Islamic Empire, and that Babylon will LITERALLY be rebuilt (the kingdom of Babylon was ancient Iraq), and that therefore you would be expecting Iraq to become a global economic superpower. That would take time, and certainly we are not there yet, but it could happen within 80 years at any given point in time. Thus my reasoning was led to where I could mentally grasp HOW the future could be farther off. The trendy dispensational notion in the mid 1900s that babylon was the USA or the beast was the UN is an attempt to put a square peg in a round hole. Anyway, at this point in my life I have the opinion that anyone who is spiritually mature should be able to conceive how, within their own eschatological viewpoint, that Jesus could return tomorrow, or delay for thousands of years. If you CAN'T, something is broken in how you're understanding either the world or God's sovereign plan. Contra postmils idea that Christ will take dominion primarily THROUGH the actions of the Church, I see over and over again a theme of "I'll do it myself. I'm the only savior" whether in the flood, in the call of Abraham, in the Exodus, in the judges, in the anointing of David as king, in the angel of Death destroying Sennacherib's army, in Christ's own advent, etc etc. It simply makes TOO MUCH thematic sense for God to be the one to PERSONALLY and bodily defeat his enemies and take up residence to rule, in a literal 1000 year perfect government, to show a) this is how it's done and b) reveal his glory in election in the fact that even with utter perfection (but the presence of sin), people still rebelled against him, LEST we think we had done any of it (believing in him, winning the victory) ourselves. That is one of the stronger reasons why I'm a futurist rather than an idealist (I'll explain that below since it was a helpful video from R C Sproul that told me about it and I haven't seen the information easily accessible elsewhere).
Views of the millennium:
amillennial - there is no millennium, or the entire church age is the millennium (but the practical result is the same), and things will generally get worse until Christ returns and then we automatically enter the new heavens and new earth
historic premil - there is no rapture, but the events of Revelation are seen as futurist, generally.
'dispensational' premil - the church and Israel are two groups (the heretical view is that there's two ways of salvation and two spiritual people of God. The Reformed view (John Macarthur for the best example) is that there's always been one way of salvation and one people of God, but ethnic israel is a distinct prophetic entity which will become the focus of God's redemptive plan again in the future. This view expects a rapture of the church, whereafter the final 7 years are equivalent to Daniel's final 'seven' and "The Time of Jacob's Trouble", hence a focus on God chastising but also rescuing his people: "in the end, all israel will be saved." The "pre" refers to the fact that Christ returns PRE the millennium and then the prophecies about the millennium are fulfilled in a literal rule of Christ, bodily, on earth before sin is finally destroyed.
Postmillennial - there is no millennium or the entire church age is the millennium (practical result is the same), and so the 'post' refers to Christ returning AFTER the period of time to which the prophecies of the millennium apply. This is what motivates many postmils but not all to expect a 'golden age,' but all agree that 'things will in general get better' when looking at history from a big picture view. There are more Christians now than ever before, the blessings of civilization are greater than ever before and most were pioneered by Christians. Christians have made serious inroads against slavery and tyrannical government systems and the worst overreach of government excess in human history has seen most of us still able to move freely and buy what we need without interruption. Heck of an improvement over meeting in the woods in the dark to avoid getting dragged off to be executed.
Views of the rapture within dispy premil:
pretrib - the rapture is the kick-off for the tribulation
post trib - Idk what motivates people to believe in this, but we fly up in the air and fly back down again right after, but go through the tribulation. Basically historic premil but an imo arbitrary rapture insertion also
mid trib - noting the division of the tribulation into two parts, suggests that the rapture will take place at the 3.5 year mark
pre wrath - without specifying the exact time, emphasizes that since the passages about the rapture imply that the Church is removed from earth to spare her from God's outpouring of wrath on the world, that this occurs before the wrath, specifically. "we are not appointed to wrath," and as Jesus writes to one of the churches, "I will keep you from the HOUR of wrath" not merely keep them safe from the wrath while still on earth at that time.
Views on how Revelation is to be interpreted (which is connected with views of the millennium but can be mix-matched to some extent):
futurist - the events have not happened yet and are mostly future
idealist - the events are things which occur throughout the church age in different times and places
historicist - the events refer to specific entities and times in history, but which occur progressively during the church age. This is the view that generates the idea that we are in the 'laodicean' era of the church, for example
preterist - the events happened already (usually identified as leading up to 70 AD). FULL preterism is a heresy, stating that Jesus has already returned. False, as literally every Biblically Christian view above would understand that we are then physically able to see Jesus among us, and because we cannot, this cannot be true.
Postmillennialism generally also takes a preterist view (but may also dabble in idealism), premil takes a futurist view (but can also take a historicist view of some elements), and amil is generally idealist or historicist but less likely than postmil to be preterist)
I am a proud 11th generation Mayflower descendant. My great plus grandfather was Stephen Hopkins and my great plus grandmother was Constance Fisher. He signed the Mayflower Compact.
That’s what you’re proud of, who you are by ancestry? Why do you identify with who you are by heritage and not who you are in Christ?
@@JohnGodwin777 Because it's a gift for God, and he's able to stay on the subject discussed.
@@JohnGodwin777 knowing the past is essential in order to thank God - for example for redeeming you from your sin.
Amen. Read some Rushdooney last year, shook me up. Realized, “we need land for our children, their children, and on!” We sold our home. Bought a farm 2,200 miles away. Yes. Postmillennialism forces us to view the world differently and act accordingly.
Do things like do not be anxious for anything, sell all that you have and follow Christ, don’t store up your treasures on earth, heaven and earth shall pass away, do they go out of view with postmillennialism?
@@JohnGodwin777 no they don't but, you view them differently. I would suggest Doug's book "ploductivity" it defines wealth and how it should be used by a Christian. Christians should view wealth as a tool to be used for the kingdom of God.
It's so sad to see so many premil Christians think that all we are to do is be doormats for Jesus. It is disgusting and selfish, in a way, to not think about leaving something good and solid for our children's children's children to inherit. The mentality that we will be beamed up and who cares what happens here on earth, is simply selfish and shameful.
That's why I'm a postmil theonomist without blushing. I wish more feathers were ruffled in the Christian sphere.
Islam and pagans have a better eschatology than most Christians, sadly. As wrong as their views are, they still have a worldview. Militant worldview to WIN. Premil view: we lose. We're here to lose. That's nonsense! Jesus came to conquer and He did and He will have dominion!
@@JohnGodwin777 Does it mean that non-postmil people have sold everything they own? I know a few hundred that haven't. So why would we blame postmils for not doing the same?
'if I knew the world would end tomorrow, I would still plant my tree.' Luther
Every time I hear Doug talk about his changed views on hedges, I want to know what and how he was planting and how that changed. I have probably spent at least 25 hours thinking about Doug Wilson’s hedges. Lol
Well… obviously he planted more sturdy trunked hedges, ones that grow tall, but not too tall. Ones that grow healthy, and not too quickly, because he has the time to wait for them to come in well. And ones that when at their final height, would provide the perfect level of privacy, but also not completely cover the view. He definitely went with the ones that cost a little bit more, because he knew that he would be sharing them with all the coming generations. So penny pinching on it, was out of the question. He took the extra time and care to dig out all the holes properly, not cutting corners from gardening exhaustion. Took the time to properly check the drainage of each hole too, so if soil needed to be amended, you bet your butt he amended that soil too. And looking to the near future, he already acquired the proper pruning shears, because he knows that caring for the plants in the first few years, will determine it’s shape 50 years from now. He knows that what he does today and next year with that edge, will be seen by his great great grandkids, so there’s no cutting corners or slacking on this front. Or should I say… on this hedge. Bum bum buuummmm!!
I imagine because in the “pessimistic view” the hedge will get burned up in fire and not matter at all. In the “optimistic view” the hedge might be there for a while. Considering the two positions, I’ve definitely had the same thought that, if Postmil is true, there’s a whole different perspective we should have about the earth and it’s politics.
I think you are a little too consumed with Doug
@@matts.6558 Cool story bro
Pre-mil. Here,
Can't agree hard enough with pastor Wilson.
Jesus might come back tomorrow. Time might be short, and of the utmost importance. And the LORD might tarry another millenium or two. We have to make the most of the time we have AND plan for our children's children's children. Pre-mil's like myself have to stop building ramshackle churches that "only need to last ten or so years" until Christ's return. We have to stop ceding ground to the humanists in every area of culture, because "Crist might come back tomorrow."
If he DOES return tomorrow, I'd rather be found building a cathedral that could last 1,000 years, than squatting in a hut I threw together "until this all blows over."
Here we are 2,000 + years into Christ’s 1,000 year reign.
As someone who regularly goes out evangelizing weekly on the streets in the Twin Cities of MN, I can assure you that every one of our team of evangelists are taking serious the Great Commission, though not a single one of us is Postmil. That is a straw man argument to accuse "non-Postmil" folks of not taking seriously our command to reach the lost. Because we know hearts will only change by the Gospel...governments and laws have no power to make a man into a new creation. You could still have a theocracy and still have a moralistic society where people's hearts are left unchanged.
The fact we know that Christ will come back soon and pour His wrath and destruction on the lost compels us to share the Gospel with as many as we can before it's too late. That may be next month, or in 1000 years. We do not have that information. But woe to any of us if we don't preach the Gospel!
Agreed! One thing that does bother me, is where are all these supposed people who have their feathers ruffled by post mill. It seems like a strange question to me. I know when first heard the position articulated I just immediately understood it to be wrong though it didn’t affect me much when concerning my emotional state; neither have I sensed from anyone else.
You missed the whole point
There is a temptation to have a "get people in the door" mentality. I'm not post mil, but it seems like it is geared more towards quality over quantity. We are in a spiritual war and getting converts without building them up to fight in the war is bad for them and the spreading of the faith. I'm not saying that's what you do, but it's a thing that does happen more often then anyone would like to think.
@@Zanroff That sort of thing seems to happen across the board. Once someone "prays the prayer" we give them a list of dos and don'ts. Tell them what to believe, and then call it a day. No real concern for discipleship nor praying for them to mature in Christ.
( I am speaking generically, clearly this doesn't embody every Western Church's actions )
You proved his point. It isn't true of everyone, but it is a general truth that your eschatology doesn't drive you to think beyond that. Praise God, you've reached souls, now how do you disciple them to live the rest of their lives in their communities?
Servus! Hello from a sister in Christ from Austria! Pastor Douglas Wilson please pray for Austria! Next month Austria is bringing out a C0vid V@ccine mandate for all above 18 years... thanks a lot for all the great sermons, blogs etc. God bless you, your family and Christ Church!
For real on ruffling feathers. I've had premill types call me all sorts of names - unrepentant, apostate, and other names which I can't recall but were sufficiently barbed. 😅 And I'm not some gadfly either! I don't say things meant to be provocative. If the topic comes up and someone asks for my thoughts, I'll explain calmly that I take the postmillenial view. But not even this meek approach can avoid the wild-eyed stares and accusations. My own Grandmother once said she prays for the safety of my soul because of my postmill beliefs. The whole thing is just so outlandish. 😂
Have you been called Anti-semite or “you want another holocaust”?
How about preaching blasphemy for “replacement” theology?
@@seasidelife9742 Ha! No. But I've heard my fair share of wild rhetoric involving the state of Israel.
We want all things to be Christian
Would be nice to have the link to the sermon pastor Wilson is talking about...
I became post mill over a year ago... but was careful who I discussed with about it. Unfortunately, a 2 months ago, a few dispensational people got upset about it and forced my husband to resign from his position as an associate pastor of 16 years. I didn't think it would ruffled feathers that much. This stance has completely uprooted our family and has labeled me a heretic. But I stand firm that our Lord is reigning in heaven and earth now... not in a future 1000 years.
Resign? Wow that’s overboard, we are all on the same team. That church needs to prioritize
It isn't the church as a whole that decided... but the leadership.
@@MarcusOfLycia their statement of faith never states anything about a premil return. It states, "We believe in the return of Jesus Christ"
Our beliefs haven't changed about that.
THAT IS SO TRUE!!!! Thank you Uncle Doug. ♥️
One more comment! I get the sentiment, but I gently disagree with this: "Most evangelicals live like they won't have great-grandchildren."
I see most pre-mill evangelicans as living in a state of cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, they want to be pre-mill and constantly live on-edge waiting for the Beast and the rapture and the next Christian holocaust, etc, and to that end they don't want to put in the hard work on building Christian society in the ways that Doug mentioned, like pulling their kids from school. But on the other hand, try suggesting that if time is short then they should abandon their largely pointless day jobs in favour of full time ministry - street preaching, if nothing else - and to spend all their money, yank their 401k and other investments, sell their home, their car, etc, all so they can pour their resources into preaching to the world in advance of the soon-arriving end times... and they will definitely ignore you. 😅
So they want to be able to act like the end is nigh in all the ways that are convenient to them, and they want to act like the end is NOT nigh in the other ways that are convenient to them. Either way - they want, more than anything else, what is CONVENIENT lol. This includes living a life of full-on spiritual cognitive dissonance.
You’re right. I don’t know if or when there’s going to be a rapture but I fully believe that Christ will be returning (well) within my lifetime.
I think a lot of Christians in the US waste huge amounts of money, live far too comfortably and put away for retirement like the Lord didn’t say don’t be anxious for anything. If the Lord leads me I’m ready to liquidate my retirement. I’m trying to find ways to trim my budget so I can send more funds to foreign missionaries.
On that note, anyone reading this can at least setup Amazon smile and have a portion of your purchases go to whatever charity you choose. Mine is setup for HeartCry Missions.
I wish I could street preach, I have a phobia and don’t know if I’m qualified but I really want to witness to more people. Since I got saved last year that’s all I really want to do is see people saved. Regardless of when he’s coming, the workers are few and time is running out for someone you know.
Copying my comment from above because I think it's relevant to your comment, too
This isn't a great argument, though, since the charge has been levied against calvinism that it leads to apathy. It certainly does not -- among MATURE believers. It is certainly true that less mature individuals who are exposed to these teachings don't incorporate them well, and thus produce such an impression on others. While there may be a tendency to escapism in pretribulational premil, the flip side is that postmil may be influenced by a wishful-thinking tendency to optimism. Both are two ways that people with cognitive dissonance can deal with fear of the future. It will get bad, but you get to escape the worst of it (premil) or It won't get bad, don't worry (postmil). Choosing between the two shouldn't be done on the basis of whether we doubt our personal cynicism or optimism. :)
No matter what, you oughta act like we have to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth. I’m certainly not post-mil but we oughta have that same fire for revival.
"Hardcore" Lutheran here; I'm an amillenialist, but I agree the gospel calls us to live differently, regardless of a- or post- millenialism. We believe in living differently because we are (all Christians, that is) set apart by God. We Lutherans believe in missions. My wife and I homeschooled our kids because we questioned the state government. We approach the culture differently because of the call of the gospel. As an amillenialist, I don't even like the term, because I'm not sure why pre- or post-millenialism is even a thing given living lives worthy of the gospel is what drives us.
I, perhaps wrongly, understand that a lot of Lutherans are strongly opposed to the postmill position. Is that true, and if so, why do you think that is?
@@NnannaO I can't speak to the opinion of all Lutherans, but I know we teach and confess amillenialism. Post Millenialism seems to go against 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Beyond that, it seems unnecessary.
I'm taking a modern philosophy class and something I realized was that the post modern Era is a pessimistic Era and that tends to inform or eschatology.
That sounds a little naive, and I'm not disrespecting you. I suppose you could elaborate that by saying that postmodernism is a denial of absolutes, which leads inherently to a sort of nihilism. This kind of "nothing really matters" attitude COULD influence a person's attitude toward whether or not there's a point in working toward improving the future, and therefore whether or not they prefer to think that they'll get to escape earthly responsibilities soon, versus have to stick around and create a thousand year legacy. However, apathy or nihilism is not at the root of premil, and those who keep to it are likely to be persuaded by the sheer specificity of futurist-worded prophecies that don't seem to be adequately addressed by postmil allegorizations. I think if anyone is attracted to premil for immature reasons, that's likely to be due to cynicism and a desire to avoid suffering, not primarily an attitude toward reality itself, that nothing matters. The idea that what is spiritual is more important than what is material is not from existential nihilism but comes from metaphysical dualism and has been with Christians from the very beginning. The Gnostic heresy came out of the negative view of the material world, and this is more apt to be the subtle influence on those who are pessimistic about working with what you've got to create something long term.
@Caleb P it seems to me that the post modern ideology that permeates our culture creates a negative culture that is Hopeless at its core. When nothing is absolute and you are tossed to and fro then everything becomes pessimistic because you have no grasp on the future. The Church is influenced by this and leads them to an escapist mentality that is informed by an everything is getting worse eschatology. This has the result of the church not acting as joyful soilders on a mission. Instead the church is not doing anything and waiting on Jesus to fix it all even though we are not to bury our talents.
Bingo. The spirit of the age changes from the renaissance/enlightenment modernist optimism that man will create utopia through reason and science which was shattered after the word wars. Premil dispensationalism caught on in the post war years when the postmodern existential dread gripped the world.
The majority of evangelicals bought into the world's futile thinking and retreated into two kingdom pietism and doomsday eschatology abdicating the battlefield when the standing order was ". . .make disciples of all nations, . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. . . "
No use polishing brass on a sinking ship when Satan has the title to rule the earth and we're gonna get raptured out of here before it gets spicy. Am I right?
Now the ruse of our gentlemen's agreement of live and let live has been broken and the beast and the harlot are once again demanding complete and total surrender of the Church to Pagan Universal Unitarianism and god states. They always want that pinch of incense to their god.
The pagans and apostates know dominionisim is inescapable and they're playing for keeps. A wise man once said "You cannot serve two masters."
It is the church's fault the world is falling apart and the pagans are taking dominion because we constructed theological excuses to shirk the hard work of the dominion mandate and great commission. May God grant repentance and may the Word spark reformation and righteous obedience to the truth of the gospel of the kingdom.
yah, ok. So my eschatology doesn't cause me nor give me permission to reshape how I obey the two greatest commandments - love God, love people. Having said this, I'm not necessarily completely opposed to the possibility of postmillennialism (w/ a partial-preterist hat, maybe; that full-preterist suit is whacked).
However, our world is currently in a full Romans 1:18-32 freefall. Throw in the technology hockey-stick growth, AI, robots, chipping, control, etc. etc. - hey something has got to give. I mean people actually think there are north of 70 genders - really? We live in a very, very bizarre world.
An inflection point is imminent. The question I have is will it be judgement, revival, or both?
Friend, I was once in your shoes. I am only 32 years old, I had a moment in life where God did not answer any of my prayers. Ive tried everything you mentioned above. I came to a bankruptcy and started doubting Christianity I was raised in, but never doubted Gods existence. I never had a true passion reading Gods word and one day I walked outside of my parents house by the pool and I prayed to God exactly how I felt. I told Him I don’t really love you because my deeds prove the opposite, I hate Christianity because I battle with my sin and never have victory. I said God I am done, I give up on trying. One thing I only said and promised God that I will wake up at 6 in the morning every day and read the scripture against my will. It was in 2015 day before thanksgiving, I was reading through Ephesians and I got to the 8th verse of chapter 2 and the lights went on !!! The vail was off, it all of a sudden clicked. I was bawling for the next couple hours with a joyful heart, and I knew 100% that I’ve been redeemed. All I want to tell you is read the scripture even if it’s against your will and pray and God will open your eyes through scripture !!!
Ironically, as you indicated, the reasons for doubting that time will march on very long are mostly technological. What happens when the first human egg and sperm are made entirely with CRISPR and biological components from other sources, so that none of the material came from another human? Breaking the chain so that this person - grown in an artificial womb - isn't actually related to the rest of the human race? Is he outside of Adam's race and unable to be saved? If not, it would suggest that only the physical substance of humanity and not the biological origin is necessary to be part of our race, which undermines the reason why Jesus needed to be born, does it not? Since he could've been fully formed and still be our kinsman-redeemer without a natural birth. This and certain other things which are much farther off (teleportation -- a scientific test for the soul, if the body on the other end slumps over because the original was destroyed, it shows that simply having the hardware without the soul doesn't result in life) would either remove the need for faith or would complicate things for how we see other people (not to mention "mind uploading") and I suspect Jesus would return before then. We also have a deadline -- our genomes accumulate on average 20 errors every generation, if I recall correctly. This has resulted in things like our race-wide broken vitamin C synthesis gene, and the increase of hereditary genetic illnesses as time marches on, even as we wipe out more and more infectious agents. Predictions suggest that we don't have more than 300 human generations left until we become either infertile or unviable (too broken to live). That's 10,000 years, give or take, though maybe 5,000 for homeschoolers, lol. This one can be fixed by gene therapy in the intervening time, which it's likely technology would advance to be able to do. But there it is, one consideration.
@Caleb P not sure if you're arguing against me. I indicated that this was speculative
Love Doug But he has a very bad Premise: He assumes dispensationalists live like they will be raptured and don't hedge for the future.
I would disagree, because God's word specifically commands believers to live as though He was not coming back and to be caught serving when He returns.
So any dispensationalists who live that way are living in contradiction to the commands spoken by Christ Jesus.
So the entire video is sort of based upon a false premise.
Postmil perspective shouldn't change how a person lives.
Take if from a guy who was not left with much from his parents, who is now currently working to leave an inheritance for his children WITH a dispensationalist outlook. This is a very hard road that I am not allowed to give up even if I think the return could be soon and I am kicking against the goads.
Would've expected some scripture or some other sound logical evidence.
I don't see Christ reigning in the way they say He is. Men are not rewarded according to their deeds.
If He is indeed reigning, we reign in our suffering and pain. If He is indeed reigning, we reign in long-suffering and patience. Again if He reigns, He reigns as He has reigned in forbearance and patience in humility. And if we reign with Him, we reign also in our humility in subjection to all current authorities with respect to uncompromised truth which tells Caesars that they are indeed sinners in need of a Savior and repentance. Once more, if we reign with Him, we reign in our BEING PUT TO DEATH all day long like sheep to the slaughter. And this seems much more equivalent to what scripture teaches. I don't understand where some get the idea that obedience = immediate abundance/blessings. Its akin to the message Joel Osteen preaches but with respect to different material blessing. This is not how we reign. We reign with our bloodshed and sacrifice as we constantly strain ourselves to uphold both godliness and contentment with circumstance. We strain to both work and maintain a Godly life in an age which does not allow you to do this. We live under Pharaoh which tells us to make bricks without straw. God is not this way. God provides the brick itself and even the strength.
It's evident God reigns now and has a system in place, but it is not a system of strict judgement, but one that IS EXCEEDINGLY MERCIFUL as it allows for rapists to live and even thrive. This is how he reigns.
Dispensationalists I know and follow absolutely would love if postmil was true. I myself would love it. It would be amazing and my work would be rewarded. I'm not sure what the millennium means though I would invite some explanation. Or I might have to continue my study in this area. I am not all knowing.
correct. it is a total straw-man argument.
Agree with all of this and left a bunch of comments on this video elaborating on that which I won't repeat here, but which I'll notify you of in case you're eager to jump in additional threads to read or comment.
My mom certainly lives like that.
I'd love to hear that sermon he preached in the disp premill church 😂
The basic things postmil puts forth are not things that imo contradict a futurist reading of Revelation. I can definitely see Christian influence growing over time and there still being a coup at the end by the forces of evil. No contradiction there. I'm inspired to write a sci Fi book on it, something no one has actually done
Do it!! We need more Christian thinkers in entertainment, and sci-fi would be perfect!
That’s too funny. I’m writing a science fiction book about the same thing!
@Jennifer Mugrage I'm not familiar with his work, sounds very interesting. And congrats on your books, I'll for sure have to check them out!
@@christopherwatkins7547 I don't know if you can really say _the same thing,_ lol, just because I don't have a story mapped out at all. Right now it's just a concept. I will say that I have been very much influenced by Isaac Arthur (phenomenal channel) in visualizing the setting, and the idea for how to organize chapters comes from Leon Uris' _The Hajj._ I feel like I should obtain and read The Space Trilogy by CS Lewis before putting pen to paper. The basic concept is to speculate on elements of postmillennialism and dispensational premil and how the future might unfold if "both were true," in the most important aspects - namely, continual growth of the kingdom and increasing influence over humanity (postmil) and a futurist view of the prophetic revelation of Daniel and Revelation, that most of the things spoken of are definite individuals and places and not allegorical references to systems unless otherwise indicated.
For example, though I'm premil pretrib, I interpret Mystery Babylon to be a symbol representing all false [organized] religion from the dawn of time, which is 'mysteriously' connected to Nimrod at Babel creating the first state religion focused on defying God and creating a one world government for the purpose of successfully persecuting the saints to utter destruction. It's very similar to how amils or postmils view the reference, maybe identical to some. But as a premil pretrib guy, I still view the destruction of Mystery Babylon as a futurist prophecy, namely that what is described is that all the governments of the world will coordinate to finally destroy all organized non-state religion and unify under a secular tyrannical state, the so called NWO or one world government. I think Revelation indicates that this will happen at one point in time in the future, and the whore's identification of being drunk with the blood of the saints is a reference to the fact that it was always false believers who persecuted the people of God. Some might interpret her to be government, based on the belief that bloody persecution is really a government function. I suppose, based on my current understanding, that without a futurist view, amils and postmils simply see this passage as referring to the continual tension between the State and organized false religion, as they vie for power over people but are most often not unified but separate political entities.
What I'm thinking about is how the prophecies of Revelation would play out if they were primarily futurist, BUT don't play out within the next hundred years, but rather, 6,000 years or so. What happens when there's 2 billion Jews in Israel and a trillion in rotating space habitats in the asteroid belt? What would the significance of Wormwood be if humanity has a hundred moon-based or orbital habitat colonies throughout the solar system, colonies at Alpha Centauri, Procyon, Sirius, Epsilon Eridani, Tau Ceti, and others in between? What would occur with the two witnesses' dead bodies being seen by everyone if there's light lag involved? How would human society develop with increasing Christian influence together with near-term advanced technology like artificial wombs, digital facsimiles of human personalities, full VR, millions of self-sustaining cylindrical habitats housing millions of people with their own nature preserves and armies, etc etc. The setting is fascinating on its own, but the challenge will be to work in compelling protagonists without getting tempted to do too much exposition.
@Jennifer Mugrage have not. I have never tried to be a writer, containing myself in my own personal journal or online forums, but I think I finally found something that hasn't been done before, at least not successfully (pending a read of the space trilogy to see what Lewis already put in there)
Question: He has referenced this super post mil sermon several times that wasn't post mil in language. Can you let me know if this sermon is available to listen to?
True. The dispensational premill church and tradition I grew up in produced fear of having children and doing something in society because there probably would not be a future. So why have children? Why have anything to contribute to your community? Just hunker down and get ready for the rapture because the world will be so horrible that we need not even have any children. Now we are reaping the benefits of this system of thought.
I went post-mill shortly after seminary when I learned of a new author taking a preterist approach. All the trying to fit the dispensational approach onto scripture disappeared. I think pre-mil is fatalistic and denies the ultimate power we have been granted.
What's this new post-mill buzzword?
was considering all of the post mill positions and ultimately scripture took me back to pertrib rapture. sorry! still love and respect Doug just cant square the '70AD everything went down' position. Also selectively picking 'millenium' as meaning a 'long time' is just too much of a stretch for me. That being said, Christian brothers and sisters should not be divided over eschatology, it is not an ultimate issue anyway. Christ is King, the rest is a mystery.
millennium as a long time is the least difficult aspect for me, lol. The triplicate references to the half of the tribulation being 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1260 days makes it impossible to see that as an allegory, and I'm not convinced that that matches to any sequence of time around 70 AD. Then there's the two witnesses, Wormwood, the sun scorching the earth, 2/3 of everyone dying, etc etc. There's no way that a preterist could be preterist ONLY and not also historicist or idealist with respect to the VAST majority of the prophetic elements, and then that undermines the whole argument that it concerns something that happened in 70 AD. The premil view takes the first part of Matthew 24 as "telescopic" - that it does talk about near term stuff, but then it shifts to talk about far-term stuff, like several other OT prophecies do, which while annoying to decipher is not unprecedented. Need I remind anyone that 'the virgin will give birth' was given without introductory context as the immediate reply to concerns about the immediate political climate 600+ years before, in Isaiah? That's not unusual at all.
Pre-trib is based on God having two women. One is a special race of people called Israel and another, a side chick, named the church.
@@seasidelife9742 your logic is self refuting since the Jews and gentiles are clearly different people regardless of your eschatology but it doesn't cause the problem you're presenting
The phrase “keep you from” in Rev. 3:10 is “tereo se ek” in Greek. Tereo appears 75 times in the Bible and is translated “keep” 57 of those. “Se” means “you”, and “ek”which is translated “from” in Rev. 3:10 is often translated “out of”. It literally means to be out of both the time and place of the event it concerns. Therefore it’s correct to say that the Lord will keep the Church out of the time and place of the hour of trial being referenced in Rev. 3:10. This translation makes Rev. 3:10 agree with 1 Thes. 1:10 where Paul said the Lord will rescue (deliver) the church from the wrath to come.
John 17:15 is part of a prayer that begins in John 17:6 and continues through John 17:19. Jesus was offering it on behalf of His disciples who were there with Him on the night of His arrest. Some try to use this verse as an argument against the pre-Trib rapture. But to do so, they have to change both the purpose and scope of His prayer, which was to seek divine protection from Satan for His disciples.
Ah, but Rev. 3:10 was to the Church of Philadelphia; we're not in that time period anymore. We're in the Laodicean Church Age.
So, those who WERE in the Philadelphian Church Age are all dead; hence, they were "kept from the hour of trial that is coming".
Nothing about a Pre-Trib. Rapture in Rev. 3:10, though.
Questions?
Let me know.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 Revelation 3:10
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Tereo ek
tay-reh'-o
Verb
NAS Word Usage - Total: 71
1. to attend to carefully, take care of
a. to guard
b. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c. to observe
d. to reserve: to undergo something
Ek
ek
Preposition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 62
1. out of, from, by, away from
harpazō
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
@@donhaddix3770 But, there's no Rapture in Rev. 3:10, if you think there is, then prove it.
There is no "harpadzo" in Rev. 3:10.
That's 1 Thes. 4:17. Not Rev. 3:10.
My eschatology changed in the early 80s, when for the first time I heard a sermon that told me "You're going to die".
While the Doctrine itself may ruffle some peoples feathers another issue is the current culture/attitudes of people who hold the position. People can disagree with the position without feathers being ruffled. But just like a Calvanist in "Cage Stage" there seems to be a movement of people "#datpostmil" who can ruffle the feathers. Where anytime you are having a conversation; everything gravitates back to postmill conversation. Everything from crypto, politics, the environment or the Gospel gets put through the filter or lens of Postmill and that to me is where it can be dangerous.
Because postmillennialism demands a long-term view of the world. It is the lens through which the world is viewed. This is Doug's entire point throughout the entire video.
Yeah, when anyone holding the view expresses a tendency to see you as immature because you disagree, that's not good. It implies they don't fully understand their own position, and certainly not the alternatives
We have 2,000 years of church history where living post-mil would have been the right choice ...
@Caleb P Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you. -- Deuteronomy 32:7
I’m just recently converted to pod-mil and that conclusion was my first tough pill to swallow.
I recommend to every Christian should must read Rushdoony’s book institutes of biblical law . Entire biblical view will change .
And I believe that post mil is only true biblical eschatology. Christians are called to expand God’s kingdom on earth .
Our father which art in heauen, halowed be thy name. Thy Kingdome come. Thy will be done euen in earth, as it is in heauen.
I recommend every Christian should actually read their Bible and foster and develop their relationship with God first and foremost, so that they have a solid foundation. They should do this without Biblical commentaries (not an absolute) and books written by men to ensure that they clearly understand God's will for their life and that Spirit of God testifies with their spirit. Now that they know they are good with God and hearing from Him and know His will, they can test what they hear from men like Rushdoony, Calvin etc. and discern truth from error. Andrew, had you done this, instead of being hyped up and filled with new excitement and knowledge from the mind and words of Rushdoony, you would have realized what He teaches isn't Biblical and doesn't align with God's will.
Being snatched out of your clothes leaves you an easy out, and absolutely absolves you of any risk concerning your faith or your posterity.
Copying because what I wrote was relevant to your sentiment and you and a few people share it:
This isn't a great argument, though, since the charge has been levied against calvinism that it leads to apathy. It certainly does not -- among MATURE believers. It is certainly true that less mature individuals who are exposed to these teachings don't incorporate them well, and thus produce such an impression on others. While there may be a tendency to escapism in pretribulational premil, the flip side is that postmil may be influenced by a wishful-thinking tendency to optimism. Both are two ways that people with cognitive dissonance can deal with fear of the future. It will get bad, but you get to escape the worst of it (premil) or It won't get bad, don't worry (postmil). Choosing between the two shouldn't be done on the basis of whether we doubt our personal cynicism or optimism. :)
Answer - because the saints that know God's will are told to test all things and hold fast to what is good, and post-mil = no good. We must therefore combat this error in the best way we can possible without getting into the flesh.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Also as an aside, this is a very poor representation of Christ's power and glory if this is His millennial reign currently. It sure looks like a world still dominated by sin and total depravity.
@Jennifer Mugrage Compared to a future world where the wicked have been purged, Satan is chained and powerless, demons no longer infest the earth and Christ rules with an iron rod as King with the glorified saints as his ministers.
@Jennifer Mugrage huh? compared to Christ's perfect reign.
@Jennifer Mugrage I’m not sure why you would think that. There are less demons in certain places than others but I don’t think there’s anywhere that they can’t be. Many churches in the US are full of them. A church that puts out some of the most popular praise and worship music which is sung at many churches across the US does things like grave soaking and teaches their children to astral travel(!)
The psychedelic renaissance is exposing more people to demons than ever before and “psychedelic medicine” is starting to gain legitimacy. Satanism has gone mainstream and is all over pop culture. The new age religion in general is absolutely everywhere you look if you know what you’re looking for. So, no the demons have absolutely not been driven out, they are pouring back in.
@Jennifer Mugrage I understand where you’re coming from. My understanding is that Jesus revoked the authority of the local gods. That’s why people marveled at his ability to cast out demons, it wasn’t normally possible. And perhaps there were times and places where the presence of the Holy Spirit was so strong that the demons couldn’t operate. However, the world is less and less Christian these days. The US is largely pagan now, paganism/Gnosticism/new age has even infiltrated the churches. I mean the opening invocation for the 2021 congressional session was dedicated to Brahman. Monuments to Ba’al have been erected in a few big cities.
Before I became born again I was an enlightened mystic. I practiced a kind of mediation that’s based on ancient Buddhist and Hindu techniques. I got into the new age religion by reading an author, Eckhart Tolle, that Oprah has heavily promoted. Millions of people have his books. I was into a popular music scene that is all kinds of pagan. I’d go to shows and witches would be doing ceremonies at the back of the venue. I have astrally traveled and I have had encounters with demonic entities. I promise you, paganism has not lost its power and there are demons all over.
The new age religion is the fastest growing religion in the world. The prosperity gospel churches have taken it and wrapped it in Gnostic Jesus. The NAR churches are practicing it and bringing demons into their worship services. It’s everywhere, in everything - music, tv, movies, games, politics - the world is saturated in it. And it’s wrapped in light and many are deceived. This world is fallen and will continue to be until Jesus finally returns. 🙏🏻
@Jennifer Mugrage tell that to a Christian in South Sudan, or North Korea. taking a liberal interpretation of 'millennium' which specifically means 1k years is a slippery slope I think.
FACTS! 💯
Mostly because that's not what the Bible teaches.
Exactly
Lol wow. Impressive!
Oh, i said "wow"; That's "Woe."
When I think of the verse where it says Abraham's descendents will be numbered like the stars or sand in the sea, I think of a population beyond imagination with God in eternity. When I read these verses, and let them speak for themselves, I can no longer take Premil serious, especially not dispy premil.
Because it upsets the devotion to precious conspiracy theories that arise out of pre-mill dispy soil. The soil that assumes Satan " is the god of this world."
Can someone break this down in very simple terms for me? I believe Jesus Christ died and rose again as payment for my sins, I've called on Him to save me. I listen to Bible sermons at least 6 hours a day. Mr Wilson is one of those people I listen to. I didn't grow up in church but I went to church frequently and attended all vacation bible schools available as a kid growing up in rural Alabama in the 70s and 80s. I said the little prayer told to me by the preacher when I was 10. I haven't lived a Christian life. I've been married 3 times and have committed a ton of sin in my life. I'm 48 now and for the past 3-5 years I've been studying/listening to scripture and honestly one day I think I have it figured out and then the next I'm confused again. I called on God 3 years ago and since then some things have definitely changed in my life but I'm still confused or uncertain about if I'm saved or not. I no longer do most of the things I used to and I feel extreme guilt over doing those things. I don't attend any church because I'm so confused on what church to believe is leading me in the right direction. Sorry for the long rant but I'm not confident enough to talk to anyone in person about any of these things. Any advice would be greatly appreciated
The best advice one can give you is to join a church that believes the Bible. That take it seriously and worships seriously. That doesn't mean you will agree with everything, but this is a feature not a bug. You need to be ready to submit and love. And God will bless you.
Doug's denomination is the CREC, which is a mixed denomination of presbyterians and baptists; it's possible you can find one of these churches near you.
Also. I'd recommend being willing to drive up to an hour, and if there is literally no place closer (after you have actually looked), there's the choice to START a church (asking a denomination to send a pastor, for example, is one way), or to MOVE to be closer to one. Don't dismiss the last option too quickly.
@@horrificpleasantry9474 thanks. I'm moving closer to a bigger city in June so I may have more options. What does CREC stand for?
@@jelly7310 I think it's communion of reformed evangelical churches, only 100% certain of the 2nd and 3rd but doubting I got the 1st one right.
@@horrificpleasantry9474 I appreciate it.
Eh, eh, [hand raised, trying to jump up and down, but I'm just bouncing in my wheelchair] "eh, call on me!" One word answer. What Is: "Tradition"
The reason postmil-ism upsets people is twofold. First, it inevitably has to turn political. Second, once it turns political, religious disputes become crimes, and the history of postmil believers punishing religious crimes is very, very ugly.
@Jennifer Mugrage It's true that there was a lot of bloodshed way back when. Maybe we should investigate what motivated Christians to behave this way. I think our eschatology affects us more than we may be prepared to admit.
@@MarcusOfLycia Why would you say that some strand of eschatology means we have to adopt the religious views of others? I'm not seeing where that comes from. I would say, however, that in any form of government that is not totalitarian, people will be obliged to accommodate, within limits, the beliefs and views of others. That will be true, by the way, even when the theonomists gain control of their first village -- en route to taking over their county, state, nation, and finally the world.
At every point along that long arc of gaining control, there were will disagreements over various beliefs and doctrines. When those disagreements arise, the options will be the same as people had when Servetus was executed -- you either accommodate the heretics or find a way to silence them. When the theonomists control just one little town in, say, northern Idaho, my guess is that they will simply accept the Lutherans and the Baptists and hide their true intentions for us.
Most people can see that post-millennialism's belief in theocracy unavoidably brings people to that ultimate choice -- accommodate or crush. Once the theocracy is established (which is what post-mill-ism demands), decisions will have to be made about how to manage the dissenters. Premill-ism, on the other hand, teaches us to persuade people by the Gospel and wait for Jesus Himself to take over the world by force. At that point, with His physical presence here on Earth, we will have a government that is truly benign as well as truly absolute.
Hey! It's the guy from my Intermediate Logic videos!
Yikes. He’s not so good at logic. Or arguments. Notice he always makes arguments based on false premises.
@@DM-dk7js I don’t see how this is helpful.
@@jrob00 helpful wasn’t necessarily my intent. Just to say that Doug is not very good at logic.
@@DM-dk7js Never seen him do that. Also, I'm talking about the interviewer, not Doug.
@@aidenmarshall6478 he does it on his last posted video for example. And most “reaction” videos.
For example: Doug has claimed atheists cannot care about racism, for example, since they don’t believe in god. He presupposes god gives him objective morality but cannot actually demonstrate this to be true. Therefore it’s a false premise and false premises lead to false conclusions.
Fairly new to the concept.... So the postmillenial position is that the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth already happened. Do postmillenialists have a theory as to when that millennium happened?
No it's that we're in the millennium. That's same as amils in a sense.. The idea is that there's no millennium AFTER Jesus returns but it'll be immediately the NHANE.
Put another way, the 'post' does not refer to where we are now, it refers to when Christ returns in reference to the millennium. A - there is none, Christ returns when he returns. Pre - Christ returns pre/before the millennium. Post - Christ returns post/after the millennium
I think it ruffles feathers because the Christian realizes they as an individual have a lot of work to do for the kingdom.
It doesn't ruffle my feathers, I just don't see it in the text, and people have been trying to show me for 33+ years. And how in the world is sending out missionaries and altering our personal lives a distinctly Postmil quality? See... It's statements like that one that make absolutely no sense to me. Maybe being Postmil is a LOT harder for people like me who are infertile and don't have children; I am a sole surviving son, and when I die, my name dies with me. I don't have descendants, so I really don't think generationally; that kind of thinking means nothing to me.
I would point out the passage 'let not the eunuch say 'i am a dry tree' ' to see that you can leave a spiritual legacy even without heirs. Now, I am pretrib premil so I'm not trying to argue for post, here. I have left a bunch of comments on the subject in this comment section and you might agree/find useful some of them if you have time and the curiosity to read them. One of the things I've noted which you're touching on, here, is that it seems many postmils are motivated to hold to that because of sentimentality. We all love our kids. I say that as a single, it's just a truism. So postmils are engaged in a type of wishful thinking just like immature premils are (those who are apathetic escapists)
I love Doug’s intellect and perspicacity on *many* issues, but this one particular subject just doesn’t make sense at all. And that amazes me, but it’s at least not a salvation issue.
Postmillenialism strikes me as being almost Hegelian eschatology where somehow humans usher in the Utopia, but you’d have to take a liberal, non-literal “1000 years” interpretation of Revelation in order to arrive at this conclusion. It’s almost mystical in it’s thrust. Are we sure that things are just going to miraculously keep getting better when all of the evidence points to the contrary?
I agree. I also notice that when Doug or James White or anyone else talks about postmillennialism seem to focus on the "think about the future" arguments rather than the biblical. I know they have their reasons biblically for believing postmill, but it seems more like an emotional "I want salvation to spread" taking dominance over biblical evidence
Respectfully, I think things are getting better and better if you look at time in larger chunks. From the time of Christ until now, things are much, much better. We seem to be in a rough spot, no doubt, but the gospel is moving forward globally.
It's hard to see when we look to our immediate present, but God works everyday. Having said that, I do believe that the gospel will always have opposition, even to the very end. One day, God will make an end of sin, and on that day, there will be many unbelievers. I think that we should trust that God will keep His word. That His name will be great all over the earth.
@@michaelnapper4565 Genuine question: by what metric do you think things are getting better? General freedoms and liberties, or strictly the spreading of the Gospel? I have a difficult time with the postmil view because I think it equates those two things. That the church will grow and take over and we'll have some Christian utopia. But in the Bible and in reality, I see that is it persecution that spreads the Gospel and it is in the worst circumstances that I see the church flourish. So, I do think many more people will become saved, but not the way that the postmil view tends to assume.
My heart wants Post Mill, my mind says Pre Mill….mixed in with what I grew up learning, “too good to be true”, and what I see happening.
@@alspurgin And the “spreading” of the Gospel includes heretics like TD Jakes and Joel Osteen haha. I’m also very skeptical that the recent events such as worldwide lockdowns and the authoritarian regimes such as China, Iran and Russia making moves is not more evidence of increasing instability and persecution across the globe.
Because its true!! Haha love it!
Because of the flesh, and the world, tradition n moreover -they err not knowing the Scriptures or the Power of GOD .
Was it 200 years ago premil came to be known? I think it was the Schofield Bible that took the early writings and put it in their notes.
Not all premil, just the dispensational variety often associated with a pre-tribulation rapture. The early church had a variety of different positions represented.
Iow premil was always a thing, the realization that it's the day of God's wrath and we are not appointed to wrath and we will not all die and the gates of hell will not prevail but the beast will prevail over the saints -- that this implies a rapture was first explicitly taught more recently
@Brett Almond Do be aware however that in Luke's parallel to Matthew 24, where there is a reference to one in the field, one in the housetop, one grinding at a mill "taken," this can't be a reference to the rapture because the context is judgment. Those who are taken in that specific passage are taken to destruction.
My issue is the same as yours. Fundamentally, I believe the many prophetic details in the OT and NT are TOO SPECIFIC to be successfully allegorized. That and the fact that so many prophecies in the past were literally fulfilled. If the incarnation was still in our future, I am certain that Postmils would spiritualize the virgin birth and suffering servant passages. With everything that we have the benefit of hindsight for, we can see that though there's lots of symbolism present and poetic flair, when specific identifications are made, unless they are otherwise interpreted in the text, are in my awareness always literal. My questions go something like "who are the two witnesses then, and when were they killed and resurrected and what is the fire from heaven they could call down at will symbolizing?" I am interested in learning more about the allegorical interpretations postmils and amils largely share about Revelation. For example the 144,000 are taken to be a reference to the full number (1000) of believing gentiles (12) and believing Jews (12) together resisting the antichrist. But my premil mind says, it specifically says 12,000 from each of the tribes of israel, and there is no way you're combining the gentiles into israel. The argument that the church is true israel doesn't apply here, because even though that should be accepted by everyone, the simple fact is that the ethnic tribes of israel are mentioned by name, and that specificity makes no sense as an allegory, since the true israel, the church, by no means has any distinctions in it like Benjamin, Judah, Isacchar etc anywhere implied in Scripture nor is an identification intuitively possible.
I think some of it is because a lot of pre-mil people equate post-millennialism with super politically liberal social justice type Christians. ( At least that's who I first heard the idea from and immediately dismissed it because I disagreed with them on so many other aspects of life .) The idea that temporal human flourishing is the end goal of the gospel is obviously unbiblical. Later on, I was exposed to the folks at Cannon and Apologia and I'm trying to give post millennialism a fair shake because of them. The ideas of dominionism are certainly more biblical than the borderline socialism often promoted by the other type of post-mils who embrace "nice" ideas about charity and excelling in your work in the Bible while ignoring the law and the biblical models of government.
I think it needs to be made very clear that there can be tremendous persecution (and will be) while the gospel continues to be increasingly triumphant and that human suffering will continue until Christ returns in person and reigns in person.
But I'm a total newbie and here to learn as much as anything. I really have no idea what I believe about eschatology, which is kind of a scary place but also kind of exciting.
People bristle at post mil for the same reason they bristle at theonomy.
I grant your argument, OP, and suggest that that's the case with premil, too, that many people's view of that is colored by the fact that there's a large overlap with Baptists, of whom many are IFB/SBC or otherwise not Reformed theologically and therefore express an immature or argumentative mindset to the rest of the visible church - and the reason it's spread within Baptist circles is that Baptist covenant theology is one step closer to dispensationalism than presby CT because it makes a distinction between the old and new covenant as two separate covenants whereas presbies see them as two administrations of the covenant of grace. I am still learning the church history but I get the sense that dispensationalism developed out of baptist CT and viewed additional things as distinct between the OT and NT, such as the church and Israel. Where they strayed into heresy was when they saw them as two different spiritual people of God with 2 ways to be saved. But this is not as I understand it basic dispensationalism, which is simply the view that ethnic israel is a distinct prophetic entity that has prophecies pertaining to it and NOT spiritual israel/the church. In summary, I think that's a parallel reality to the idea that postmil was more attractive to pentecostals and prosperity folks who had errant views of the spiritual gifts and God's promises which led them to be more attracted to the idea that we're victorious on earth.
@Jennifer Mugrage I find it very dubious that those events took place in a 3.5 or 7 year period which can be historically verified, AND though there are some good arguments for an early date, I think there are more strong arguments for a later date of the writing of Revelation, which would make preterism moot. Not to mention all the specific prophecies that are as far as I can tell totally ignored, e.g. where was wormwood, when did 2/3 of the earth die, who were the 2 witnesses, and if the Roman empire is the 6th kingdom how can it also be the 7th etc
Agree
What I find interesting here is that all of the arguments made had nothing to do with scripture but emotion. I am a pre-trib rapture dude who doesn’t know the day or the hour and I live my life as Doug would describe as post-mil. I am not bothered by Doug’s post-mil stance; I just think it’s wishful thinking. I would love for post-mil to be true, but I simply don’t see it in scripture. The answer to this whole argument is simple... what does Jesus say the world will be like at the end? He says it will be like the days of Noah and it will get worse and worse before His return. Read Matthew 24 where Jesus describes what the world will be like at the time of the end. If you are still post-mil after reading that, I’m not sure what to tell yah.
I agree that I would have liked to see more scripture here. I think that you can read through Matthew 24 and still be post-mil. I can read through it and also see the pre-trib rapture, but only if I hold the chapter in isolation and I don't use Chapter 24 -25 imagery. When I read Chapter 24 I see the more obvious revelation of the fall of Jerusalem, which is clear when it says that this generation will not pass away until these events happen, but this also poses huge issues for belief in a rapture. All the imagery and initial revelation in Jerusalem speaks more of a reverse rapture with the evil being taken away and not the believer being raptured away like in the 20th-century viewpoint. All of the images present the evildoer or those who did not do right by the Lord being taken away or thrown into the darkness. The believer is always shown to be here to stay (ex: the virgins with the oil, the servants with the tablets, Noah and his family). Even the most common rapture passage, Matt 24:40-41 and Luke, you have to read against the grain as it is a reference to Exodus, where the sons of Egypt are "raptured" while the sons of Israel remain protected by the blood of the lamb.
If you read through 24 you can see the immediate revelation through the historic desolation of Jerusalem. This is not to say that these passages won't be mirrored in later revelation when the Son returns, but if we are truly trying to exegete Eschtologyf from this passage, we also have to observe how it is fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem. It is very hard to read it that way and also believe that God will pull a full 180 and later rapture His people when the "rapture" we see in Jerusalem is the bodies of unrepentant Jews going up in the smoke of their desolated city, while the true Word goes out to the rest of the world.
The rapture acts as a crutch to hold up the seeming inconsistency of how we view the world today. And why do we hold onto this crutch? Because we look around and see a world groaning under sin and we think that the solution is to take man away from it, even though before sin man was created in the context of earth. This is where the Eschologic mindset matters. How do we think God redeems? Does He take away or does He cleanse what is already there through the Son's blood? Exodus gives an answer, Noah gives an answer, the thriving progress of the Church gives an answer. Its difficult for me to read the Bible and be pre-mil or rapture when initial revelation shows a fall of Jerusalem followed by an explosion of Church growth across the earth and still think that final end times will be in the reverse. Interpret unclear signs in symbols through the lens of clear ones. The history of the Jews is a clear one.
@@danekowalick6652 Though I believe in a pre-trib rapture, I am not dogmatic about it since I sincerely do not know. And I'm not sure why some Christians continue to call the rapture a "crutch" or "escapism" as if that is a bad thing. Do you long for heaven? I sure do! Do I want to go through the tribulation? No! But if I have to, then so be it!
But my whole argument against post-mil had nothing to do with the rapture; it had everything to do with how Jesus described the conditions of the world before His return. I do not and cannot believe in in the preterist or post-mil views. I think the root of these ideas, that most or all of revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD, is replacement theology; that somehow the church is now "Israel." This idea completely ignores God's plan for Israel as a nation and completely ignores the promises He made to the Jews in the Old Testament. Jesus literally says that the time of the end will be the worst time ever to be experienced on Earth, never to be equaled again.
"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24:21 NKJV)
Was 70 AD the worst event that has ever taken place on the planet? Hardly!
If you ask some theologians about the significance of Israel becoming an nation again on May 14th, 1948, some will say that it has no relevance... and yet the Bible says otherwise:
Israel Rebirthed-in a Day After nearly two millennia and a succession of foreign rulers, on May 14, 1948, David Ben Gurion declared the restoration of the Jewish State, Israel, saying, “In order to be a realist, you must believe in miracles.” Isaiah seemed just as incredulous, challenging:
“Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment?” (Isaiah 66:8)
We have seen it-in our lifetime!
Jerusalem Restored to the Jews-“Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24b)
The Desert Will Bloom and Blossom-The prophet Isaiah saw a time when
“the desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom” (Isaiah 35:1).
It’s almost impossible to believe, but the fledgling State of Israel has developed such revolutionary agricultural methods, that even the sand produces lush crops! In her short time of existence as a modern State, Israel became the largest exporter of roses to Europe.
The Hebrew Language Revived-According to the prophet Zephaniah, God would
“restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one accord” (Zephaniah 3:9 NKJV).
In the late 1800s, Russian immigrant to Israel, Eliezer Ben-Yehudah, revived the ancient Hebrew language, giving the returning exiles of Israel a common language.
Israel is God's prophetic timeclock and for post-mil or preterism
to hold any water, you have to take Israel completely out of the equation... hence replacement theology.
There is so much more that I could say, but I'm sure you have your mind made up and I'm not expecting to change it. These are just some of the many reasons behind my eschatological beliefs.
- Shalom
Best argument for Post Mil is the arc of human history and liberty over the last 2022 years.
Ohhhhh snap
Some want to get away from it all.
Rapture take me away
I’m now 💯 postmil.
I'm not post mil. But I feel this deeply!
Honestly, the thing with hard eschatology is:
Who cares?!
There are souls to save, work to be done, and Spiritual wars to wage for the Name of God! You'll find out everything you need to know about eschatology when it happens, but you will not be able to reverse the clock and work while there's light.
So when Jesus said he came to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom, your reply is “who cares” ? ….. wow
"who cares, there are souls to save" IS a doctrinal position, so the answer is, YOU care. You care enough to assert the position that people should not be caring about these issues. That in itself is a position on the issues. You're not neutral
Did you guys not read what I said?
"Hard eschatology."
The Bible literally says not to let there be divisions amongst the church, but many will attach great importance to a specific view on eschatology.
As much as theology and eschatology are important things, we'd do better to remember 1 Corinthians 13 than to batter each other over eschatological differences.
*insert "Pan-Mil" Dad Joke here.
Holomil and Transmil tho
I must confess I get a sick sense of satisfaction watching dispys and posmils go at it. It reminds me of this one time when two of the special-ed kids got in a fight on the playground. We all knew we should probably break the fight up or go get the playground duty... but due to the depravity of our childish little hearts, we couldn't tear ourselves away. Oh wretched man that I am...
Datamil, huh? Got the right view on the date of Revelation but a little too masochistic to accept that the Bible teaches a rapture :D
Why are your feathers ruffled about other peoples ruffled feathers?
I'm not convinced that "post" is the best explanation and neither are my "feathers" ruffled because you believe it is. We just have a different way of doing our hermeneutics and how we see the signs of the times playing out. Our various conclusions, however, though seemingly distant and contrary to one another are secondary and not salvific and we all agree on the essential quality of the faith - that "this Jesus, who has been taken up from [us] into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” And in that prospect, we can both rejoice. Even so come, Lord Jesus!
What is postmil? I'm guessing its a movement or thought to secure our future and our childrens future?
I would honestly say that I agree with Doug about behavioral change. But further, we, when in the flesh, conforming our minds to it instead of the Spirit focus on the NEGATIVE. 'If it bleeds it leads' as the news saying goes.
Just look at the last 22 months. Fear and horror at every turn. And so many people just gobbled it up.
What better than to have a baptized "God approved" belief system that completely justifies all your pessimisstic-glass-half-empty-prepper-stuff-hit-the-fan emotions than Pre-Mill dispensationalism?
Further still I believe it's because we think us living now are the best and only people to have ever lived and thus care very little about history and have never known about true persecution, war and famine and such. Only in plush-cushy 20th century America could this type of belief take off. Woe is me!
This is not a great argument against premil because postmils can be subject to the accusation of being wishful thinkers also, their sentimentality is just focused on "i want a better life for my kids," as opposed to "i don't want to suffer." Still an emotional reaction. We shouldn't judge the different positions based on what kind of emotional person they attract.
@@horrificpleasantry9474 the same logic can be applied to pre mill.
Many have a victim complex and think everything is about them.
But if that's not good enough for you. Think about the fact that this thought of pre mill rapture theology developed in the 19th century in modern sophisticated wealthy culture. And more than that because of a girl who had a dream and told it to a bible teacher and he moved from there. (this is the rapture I'm speaking about)
But the overall Disspensalist views is wrong because they split up Matthew 24. Daniels 70th week and view AD 70 as no big thing. Also many believe that ethnic Israel is saved in a separate way from Christ meaning they are saved because of their lineage and not because of faith in jesus. That is heresy my friend.
Check out Gary demar, or Jordan B Peterson. American vision has a ton of resources.
I used to hold the view of pre mill but its only true if you have no other view or have not seen anything raised against it. When you do with a honest mind you should see it's woefully lacking
@@Richardcontramundum postmils seem to split mat 24 into preterist and idealist portions too. And two ways of salvation is definitely heresy but that's a theological excess, like paedobaptism and EFS (not to say that those two are damnable), and not because the root hermeneutic is wrong, only the application
Bring back Wade Stotts.
Revelation 3:10
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Tereo ek
tay-reh'-o
Verb
NAS Word Usage - Total: 71
1. to attend to carefully, take care of
a. to guard
b. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c. to observe
d. to reserve: to undergo something
Ek
ek
Preposition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 62
1. out of, from, by, away from
harpazō
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one' s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Restrainer holy spirit removed
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 New International Version 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
Holy spirit is in the born-again. So they have to go.
Revelation 3:10 New International Version 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. tereo guard by removal. from the whole earth.
◄ 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ► New International Version For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. The tribulation.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 ESV / 31 helpful votes Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” last trump of church age.
Revelation 1 7 lamp-stand equal 7 churches/ages. After the rapture replaced by the 2 witnesses.
Matthew 25 New International Version The Parable of the Ten Virgins 25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. thief in the night. unknown time. any time other than pretrib is known.
Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the final week, the seven-year tribulation period: “[A ruler] will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” Jesus refers to this passage in Matthew 24:15. The ruler who confirms the covenant and then sets up the abomination is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. According to Daniel 9:27, the beast’s covenant will be for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 ½ years into the tribulation), the beast will break the covenant, putting a stop to the Jewish sacrifices.
Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 ½ years (the second half of the tribulation). So, we see a covenant lasting to the middle of the “week” (Daniel 9:27) and the beast who made the covenant demanding worship for 42 months (Revelation 13:5). Therefore, the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. We also have a reference to the last half of the tribulation in Daniel 7:25. There, the ruler will oppress God’s people for “a time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=½ year; total of 3 ½ years). This time of oppression against the Jews is also described in Revelation 13:5-7 and is part of the “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation when the beast, or the Antichrist, will be in power.
... lack of Faith .
Does postmil ruffle feathers, or many of the people who preach it? I say this as a fan of Doug Wilson, Jeff Durbin and RC Sproul, though I am unconvinced of the postmil position. I don't care if a Christian holds that view in the same way that I don't care if someone holds to dispensationalism (though both lead to some strange theological conclusions about non-eschatology theology), but in either case, the way you advocate for it matters, and people in both those camps can be quite antagonistic proselytizers.
I think any changing theological view is tough for Christians to swallow. If they've been taught a particular view and they first hear it, they're going to reject it initially. But if they study/search the scriptures (Acts 17:11, 2 Timothy 2:15) to see if it is true and they find that it is, they will eventually accept it by the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is part of their sanctification. I don't think it's fair to say any differing view of the millennial would stop the gospels or missions (maybe a bit perhaps, but not just based on this) because Christians are commanded and sent to proclaim the gospel (Romans 10:14-17). I know plenty of Christians that are premil that proclaim the gospel with zeal and fire.
Full disclosure, I am premil in my eschatological thinking, and know many brethren that hold to the postmil view that I love and respect, and I have no problem listening to contrary views, but they need to do it giving me book, chapter, and verse. That would be the key for me to changing my view. Just commentaries on this view or telling me how Christians get certain texts wrong doesn't always do it for me. Let me explain what I mean: when I wanted to teach another brother or sister in the Lord about God's sovereignty in salvation, I can go verse by verse through Romans 9 (just using this as an example) and have them read it with me. I can actually have them read it and say, what does that verse say? And let them explain to me what it says, not what they want it to say. Doing this helped many to see that it said what it said.
Now let me begin by saying if I am misrepresenting the postmil view, then I apologize and someone correct me. But if I'm not mistaken, they don't believe the millennium in Revelation 20:1-6 is literal and we're living in it now. That Revelation 4-19 has already past (and may be speaking about events in 70 AD). That Christians will evangelize and many will be converted, practically to the point where they will (in many ways) reign in the government in terms of policies lining up with Christian values (almost like a theocracy). This will all happen during the millennial period until Christ returns. Again, if this overarching view is incorrect, I apologize.
Taking this all into consideration, if believers that don't hold to this view want to be taught this view through scripture, then they will have questions that they should have. If Revelation 4-19 is past, then they may have questions about the symbolism (how should it be interpreted and does all the interpretations between postmils line up); about the beast and the mark; about the 144,000 (are they actually tribes or is it just symbolic); and how do all these verses line up with the events of 70 AD. How do Christians rule in a theocracy type way based on the doctrine of total depravity (Romans 3:9-20, Jeremiah 17:9, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.)? And can someone go through the Revelation 20:1-6 and explain everything connected with the 1000 years (because it is mentioned six times) in light of Satan being bound, Satan no longer deceiving the nations (in light of Ephesians 6:10-18), the first resurrection, and even Christ coming on a white horse with an army in Revelation 19:11-16. I don't mean this to be a jerk; it's just something many want to know and sometimes I don't see others plainly going verse by verse and just showing what the verses say in an expository way.
Yep, my issues include the sheer specificity of the prophecies, and lack of adequate allegorical interpretations of them, that would justify seeing them as anything but future events.
“All of us are quietly post mil.”
Um, no. Missions are consistent with dispensationalism. So it’s not post millennialism that ruffles my feathers. It’s Doug’s statement like this that begins to do so.
Again, I’m a dispensationalist and am planning on grandchildren.
@@micahmartin4762 that statement you quoted reinforces to me that most postmil are such not because it makes better sense of Revelation but because it has the best explanation of how we ought to view the sweep of history - as a victory march, overall, for the church. But this says nothing about whether or not there will be a coordinated attempt to create an NWO at the end of that time which God will remove his church from in order to execute judgment on the whole planet.
Then the problem becomes we have to prove “Why postmil”? When you try to explain why Revelation supports this view it makes them double-check whether you have a tinfoil hat on your head.
Indeed. Every brother and sister in my personal sphere that I have told that I'm looking into and even leaning towards Postmillenialism has reacted to me as though I have become a heretic lol.
@@ZeeroDubs You might benefit from some of my comments in the thread, which I think are nuanced enough to grant the positives but also show some of the issues I have with postmil that maybe don't get mentioned. For your consideration
First comment!! Lol
I think anyone can find an emotional or philosophical preference for their particular eschatology. I just don't see postmil in the narrative of scripture. I think all sides proof text to some extent at least, but I just don't see it
Because it’s so clearly unbiblical.
I have such a sadness in my heart because postmills think of premillennials as being escapists with no interest in future missions. Why? Every single sober minded, Word loving pretribs are passionate about preaching, sharing the Gospel not out of fear but for people who need to know the way to Heaven so they don’t end up in Hell. Pretribs do not know and do not claim to know that exact time when Jesus comes back, but He will and the postmills don’t know either. A little humility would be nice from postmills. Planting a hedge with the certainty that it will live for another hundred years doesn’t mean much to me, but sharing the Gospel with as many people as the Lord will bring is what all of us need to do. Finally, to ignore the World we are now living in and the seemingly ‘prophetic’ occurrences happening now appears to me to be ignorant of what sober minded pretribs have been saying for decades, NWO ( Great Reset - that fits) Transformers political agenda being made the most powerful issue in many countries, the demolishing of history, the world market becoming one world currency, all religions unifying under one head, microchips implants in Sweden and being promoted all over the world etc, etc! How do postmills explain all these pretrib prophecies?
As a born and raised postmil I actually agree about the lack of humility being one reason - we’re so used to being the minority we tend to come out with guns blazing for the premils 😬 Which is obviously very off-putting to anyone.
As far as prophecies, the Bible gives us a really clear statement about prophets: if what they prophecy doesn’t happen, they’re false prophets. There’s been so many false prophecies by the dispensationalists it’s really hard to keep taking each new one seriously. A good book that goes into some of this would be “End Times Madness” by DeMar.
does not ruffle feathers, simply is wrong.
Hahaha, I got an ad for Unitarianism at the beginning of this video.
Point blank- The issue I have with Post Mil is that it totally throws out a literal interpretation of Scripture and even attempts to thwart the prophecies of God that are solidified in scripture. I don’t believe in pre or post although I see the arguments on both sides. I used to be sold out pre but moved to the middle of “searching.” I think Matthew 24 is a great post mil passage. But again, to think that we can steer the world in a better direction based on our choices is not only a works-based form of the gospel, but a totally illogical one.
In the end, it doesn't make a difference which view is true. If premil is true, then at the return of christ all the elect would have been saved, no more, no less, than all the elect. Same if amil is true. Same is postmil os true. People like to say their view is better, but it doesn't make a difference, at least not in the topic that is being discussed in this view, the salvation of the lost.
And you don't have to believe that things will get better over time before God's return, you can do great things even believing that things won't get worse.
It does make a difference. When Christians live according to premil theology we get times like today.
When they live according to postmil theology church history shows you get reformation and societies that conform more closely to God's law with greatly improved levels of shalom.
I am pre-millennial and post trib, and I agree with what he says about taking care of what you do now because it affects the future. I simply don’t adhere to the post millennial view because the Bible teaches very matter-of-factly of a pre-millennial scenario, reference Matthew 24 and 25, Revelation and many other passages. And yet I am still very concerned with how I walk because I know it will affect my children, and I’m praying for their salvation and hope that my future generations are Godly. I don’t see that in any conflict with the pre-millennial view. With the world getting worse and more ungodly it makes me extra thoughtful of living upright and Godly so my children will have a Christian example in a dark world. I don’t really find that it “ruffles feathers” though, at least not in my experience.
"With the world getting worse..."
The world is getting worse in terms of more recent history, but the world has been much worse in the past than what it is now. The only reason people think the world now is the "worst it's ever been" is because of the media.
By the way, I first was pre-trib/pre-mill. Then I became like you, post-trib and pre-mil. Then I became post-mil and partial preterist.
You're arguing that the effect supports the existence of the cause. The same argument can be made for premill and preterist and even amil positions. Thats the constant philosophical loop we find ourselves in with eschatology. Why not embrace all positions and live according to the best outcomes of each, realizing each has firm biblical support and realizing the Holy Spirit could have made it less ambiguous of He wanted to?
@@MarcusOfLycia What is it about the Preterist view particularly that makes you feel it is heretical?
Why?
1) It's not found in Scripture.
2) It gives cover for those who want to tie the church to politics.
3) it seems sentimentality motivates affinity for this doctrine, namely sentimental affection for one's children and grandchildren
4) it doesn't successfully address the sheer specificity of prophecies in Revelation from an allegorical interpretation
My problem with postmill is that it tends to be presented as very utopian, a Heaven on earth. And we criticize (rightly!) that attitude in every other religion or philosophy. So it may just be a gut reaction to any idea of an earthly Utopia that gets my hackles raised.
Also, the Puritans were postmill and theocratic. And look how quickly it fell apart. Two hundred years later and we're here. Look at Europe, also Christian in the past. I'm not seeing much to back up this postmill assurance. True, we may be in the early church and this is simply a low point. But you can understand my skepticism.
Postmill ruffles feathers because it’s a poor interpretation of scripture.
Because it’s so obviously wrong
Perhaps it ruffles feathers because the Postmill view seems to be preached with a lack humility and comes across as condescending to those that believe otherwise. My impression of Postmill people is that they care more about making the government Christian than they care about reaching unbelievers / missions.
My honest opinion of Postmill is (at least what I see from this channel): send your kids to Christian schools or homeschool them, keep your wife in the kitchen, rarely interact with the outside world, lest we have to witness to them, and be a thorn in the side of the government. Funny how that sounds exactly how a Postmill would describe the person "hunkering down for the rapture".
And why would I pull my kids from a public school? There goes the opportunity for them to witness to other children.
I'm Premill but I work hard for my family and save for retirement with the hope Jesus returns before I ever draw on those funds. I don't see in the Bible how we're to make this world a Christian utopia. I don't see how we're to live for this world at all. We're to shift our focus to eternal things, something I could do more of as well.
Idk, I've seen a lot of pre-mils that lack humility in this area of debate. It's not unique to any one view.
Why does premil ruffle other ppl's feathers? Bet postmil wish Revelation wasnt in our bibles, even Calvin shied away from Revelation.
Lol! Because it's not true! Pie in the sky nonsense
Exactly.
Probably ruffles feathers because it’s not real.
@@jakesanders136 golly gee, it’s a good thing Carl Moore spoke up…cuz without him, and minus an ability to think for yourself, you’d still be wandering the hallway wondering which door to open…
@@DM-dk7js are your ‘feathers ruffled’ by unicorns? Re-incarnation? Scientology? Mormon theology? None of these things are ‘real’…your logic is flawed…feathers are ruffled by that which is ‘real’ (Truth), not that which is not ‘real’ (unTruth)…and MOST folks are busy suppressing the Truth (Romans 1), which is why feathers get ruffled in the first place…
Is the great commission simply wishful thinking?
How does post mill make sense in 10,000 years if we colonize Mars lol.
What if Jesus comes back tomorrow?
What if Jesus doesn’t come back until 1,000 years from now?
Both should change how you act today!
That's why we're not told whether it will be tomorrow or 1,000 years from now. It's a surprise.
What in the world are you talking about?
Doug obviously has never met a fundamentalist before, or if he did he didn’t pay attention to him. Fundies are the most dispensational people on the planet and would never dare put their kids in public school. In fact, postmil people should be more willing to do so because the church is gonna take over and fix them, right?
And of course Dispensationalists don’t believe in evangelism-but when they do they change their theology....right....
And really? Dispies dont think about their grandchildren? This is all complete made up propaganda. If he wants to sound like he has any clue what he’s talking about (and I’m not convinced he does), he should reference the claims of actual people, not pull out random caricatures he made up.
Wow. That's a perfect example of a strawman.
Postmil is like a bad penny that just keeps showing up.
Nah, I think you mean dispensationalism.